<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">I definitely agree that "meta" is used in lots and lots of ways (as many words <div class="">are). Aldo and had the need for a term to describe "X about X" and we thought </div><div class="">that "meta" was the right choice. I like the idea of sub-domains (instead of </div><div class="">using "meta" for that relationship?) but I would wouldn't like to restrict our view </div><div class="">of the world as only consisting of these relationships.<div class=""><br class="">While I also like to subdivide things and see how categories would look as </div><div class="">Venn diagrams, etc. I can't see making the claims that they are universal in </div><div class="">any way. In fact, a too strict obedience on the use can produce uninteresting </div><div class="">and ultimately, less useful.<br class=""><br class="">I guess my view is that any set of *patterns* that can hang together thematically </div><div class="">(and the individual patterns within the language work with each other) can be </div><div class="">said to be a pattern language. (I'm happy that people who have used the </div><div class="">Liberating Voices pattern say that the patterns generally do work well with </div><div class="">each other.)<br class=""><br class="">Curation is the word that comes to mind at the moment. I suspect that any </div><div class="">thing that is claimed to be a pattern language is a curated collection. In other </div><div class="">words, the patterns in it were selected according to some criteria, and it's </div><div class="">not necessarily the same set that other people would necessarily come up </div><div class="">with. <br class=""><br class="">I also wonder about the numbers of patterns that you're assuming are </div><div class="">adequate / sufficient for pattern languages — unless its for their accessibility </div><div class="">for other people. It seems like asking how many pages a novel should be.<br class=""><br class="">Another thought is whether we are trying to use patterns to describe or </div><div class="">prescribe — or both. And how those intentions would make a difference </div><div class="">in the result.<br class=""><br class="">Thanks Helmut! (What do others think of these issues?) <br class=""><br class="">— Doug<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 18, 2015, at 1:27 AM, Helmut Leitner <<a href="mailto:leitner@wikiservice.at" class="">leitner@wikiservice.at</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Doug,<br class="">
<br class="">
Am 17.04.15 um 00:41 schrieb Doug Schuler:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:263F5D84-5818-4E3F-9712-0CB767865335@publicsphereproject.org" type="cite" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252" class="">
I'm interested in your points because it will be certainly easier
for the
<div class="">pattern language community to collaborate if we can
agree on some</div>
<div class="">definitions.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Aldo and I have been using the expression
meta-patterns because the</div>
<div class="">idea (at least ultimately) is to write a pattern
language whose domain </div>
<div class="">is pattern languages. (Alexander's domain was
architecture, the built</div>
<div class="">environment).</div>
</blockquote>
I've recenty started to make a difference between domains and
sub-domains.<br class="">
Domains, like "architecture", "software" or "medicine" are typically
too<br class="">
large to have just "a pattern language". They have thousands of
patterns<br class="">
and dozens or hundreds of pattern languages.<br class="">
<br class="">
Pattern languages published are for "sub-domains" or concrete design
targets, <br class="">
maybe typically 10-200 patterns in size. Something a person can
handle.<br class="">
e. g. "patterns for building schools" (sub-domain of architecture)<br class="">
e. g. "patterns for cloud computing" (sub-domain of software)<br class="">
e. g. "patterns for large scale desaster management" (sub-domain of
medicine)<br class="">
<br class="">
In that sense I would even argue that Alexander's "A Pattern
Language"<br class="">
is not a pattern language book, because it contains parts of various
PLs<br class="">
"patterns for regional development" <br class="">
"patterns for urban development"<br class="">
"patterns for buildings" <br class="">
"patterns for interiour design"<br class="">
but each is not complete enough to be used as a practical design
repertoire.<br class="">
This might explain a part of its lack of success in architecture.<br class="">
<br class="">
Therefore I consider APL as a "pattern showcase book" and suggest<br class="">
that architect should go about finding and describing the hundreds
of<br class="">
pattern languages that probably exist in architecture.<br class="">
<blockquote cite="mid:263F5D84-5818-4E3F-9712-0CB767865335@publicsphereproject.org" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">Our use of "meta" is in keeping with examples such
as metamathematics</div>
<div class="">(mathematics about mathematics) and metatheory
(theory about theories).</div>
</blockquote>
it seems that "meta-" is not consistently used:<br class="">
<br class="">
The one you describe as meta="X about X"<br class="">
e. g. metadata, metatheory, metaknowledge<br class="">
<br class="">
A slight variation meta="theory about X".<br class="">
e. g. meta-ethics (is not ethics about ethics)<br class="">
e. g. metalogic (is not logic about logic)<br class="">
<br class="">
meta="beyond X"<br class="">
e. g. metaphysics is beyond of physics. (neither "physics about
physics" nor "theory about physics")<br class="">
e. g. metacommunication, metamaterial, metaprogramming<br class="">
<br class="">
meta="higher level"<br class="">
e. g. meta-analysis, meta-heuristic<br class="">
<br class="">
there are even other uses:<br class="">
e. g.
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252" class="">
Metafiction is a literary device used to self-consciously and
systematically draw attention to a work's status as an artifact.
(maybe a beyond-case)<br class="">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252" class="">
e. g. Metagenomics is the study of genetic material recovered
directly from environmental samples. (inherent genetic diversity)<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote cite="mid:263F5D84-5818-4E3F-9712-0CB767865335@publicsphereproject.org" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">If we were going to write a pattern language on
pattern language research,</div>
<div class="">I'd think it were just an "ordinary" pattern
language. (<i class="">first order</i> pattern language?)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
And is this something you suggest or that you are doing?<br class="">
Or do you consider this as something trivial?<br class="">
<br class="">
Could you give some examples of meta-patterns?<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote cite="mid:263F5D84-5818-4E3F-9712-0CB767865335@publicsphereproject.org" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">To my mind the example you use for a BUILDING isn't
convincing. To my </div>
<div class="">mind BUILDING could be a pattern that "solved" the
problem of the need for</div>
<div class="">enclosure. </div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
Mmmh, this may be different from English to German.<br class="">
In German the corresponding word for BUILDING ("Bauwerk") <br class="">
includes everything that is build, also BRIDGE, MEMORIAL,<br class="">
or HIGHWAY, clearly not enclosing. Maybe in English<br class="">
ARCHITECTURE would be the vage meta-pattern (in my world).<br class="">
<br class="">
Sometimes languages are astonishlingly different,<br class="">
like in "quality without a name" (English) and<br class="">
having the name "Lebendigkeit" (German).<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote cite="mid:263F5D84-5818-4E3F-9712-0CB767865335@publicsphereproject.org" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">True it's more general than SCHOOL BUILDING but a
SCHOOL </div>
<div class="">BUILDING FOR ART is more specific than SCHOOL
BUILDING but that</div>
<div class="">doesn't mean that SCHOOL BUILDING couldn't be a
pattern.</div>
</blockquote>
I agree on that. <br class="">
But one can always create a categorial tree of arbitrary fine
differentiation.<br class="">
and the problem is not eliminated by that argument.<br class="">
<br class="">
The problem-solution character is lost when abstracting, <br class="">
maybe even gradually, at certain levels of abstraction.<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote cite="mid:263F5D84-5818-4E3F-9712-0CB767865335@publicsphereproject.org" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">I extended this conversation to the group. I'm
assuming that's OK with</div>
<div class="">Helmut.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
Yes, of yourse.<br class="">
<br class="">
Cheers!<br class="">
Helmut<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote cite="mid:263F5D84-5818-4E3F-9712-0CB767865335@publicsphereproject.org" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">Thanks!</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">— Doug</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Helmut Leitner
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:leitner@wikiservice.at" class="">leitner@wikiservice.at</a>>
wrote:</div>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Doug,<br class="">
<br class="">
I'm very looking forward to Krems, and to your
corresponding contribution.<br class="">
<br class="">
I see that we use different terminology, though. <br class="">
<br class="">
So, this posting tries to clarify our terminologies, <br class="">
maybe as a step to unify them. <br class="">
<br class="">
What you name meta-patterns is to me "patterns of
pattern research".<br class="">
I see a different design target, e. g. a PROJECT
PATTERN DISSERTATION.<br class="">
There are different patterns used, but I see no
serious difference in the <br class="">
quality of patterns or methodology that would justify
a new concept.<br class="">
<br class="">
For example, there is a PATTERN REPOSITORY (as a dirty
research workshop,<br class="">
containing patterns and pattern candidates, mature and
not, and all kinds <br class="">
of background information; as a basis for
collaboration and supporting <br class="">
the creattion of many different pattern products). <br class="">
I assume PATTERN REPOSITORY is a meta-pattern in your
sense.<br class="">
<br class="">
Corresponding is the PATTERN PRODUCT, a meta-pattern
in my sense.<br class="">
This is an abstract categorial construction.<br class="">
It has has real patterns as instances:<br class="">
e. g. PATTERN LANGUAGE BOOK<br class="">
e. g. PLOP PATTERN PAPER<br class="">
e. g. PATTERN CARD STACK<br class="">
...<br class="">
<br class="">
Meta-pattern is a pattern abstraction, <br class="">
where the problem-solution-relationship is lost. <br class="">
<br class="">
For example, <br class="">
RAILROAD STATION<br class="">
SCHOOL BUILDING <br class="">
are clear problem-solution-patterns. <br class="">
<br class="">
If we abstract from these concrete patterns, and talk
about BUILDING<br class="">
as a pattern (which shouldn't this be possible?), the
problems are lost. <br class="">
Although we may safely assume that each BUILDING
solves<br class="">
a problem, we can't name it, and can't reason about
it. <br class="">
Therefore, BUILDING is not a real pattern, it is
something different !!! <br class="">
Therefore, currently I talk about BULDING as a
meta-pattern,<br class="">
lacking a better word.<br class="">
<br class="">
Often the discussions in communities seems move to
this "meta"-level<br class="">
and loose contact to real implementation issues. And
one has<br class="">
to try to bring it down to the concrete level to find
solutions.<br class="">
<br class="">
Do you see these phenomena too?<br class="">
Have you named them? <br class="">
<br class="">
Best,<br class="">
Helmut<br class="">
<br class="">
Am 15.04.15 um 05:57 schrieb Doug Schuler:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:429624ED-949B-4839-9733-199A45E84D2C@publicsphereproject.org" type="cite" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252" class="">
<div class="">In case anybody is interested, here's
the abstract that Aldo and I submitted to the
pattern language conference this summer in Krems,
Austria.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We'd love any thoughts you may have.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">— Doug</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Domesticating Pattern Languages<br class="">
Meta-patterns and the Development of Pattern
Language Use Methodology <br class="">
<br class="">
Douglas Schuler<br class="">
Aldo de Moor<br class="">
<br class="">
In the 2014 PURPLSOC workshop Schuler presented
eleven “seeds” as challenges that must be addressed
if pattern languages are to effectively promote
social change. Here we focus on two
seeds: meta-patterns and methodology. Meta pattern
languages are pattern language whose domain is
pattern languages. In theory this pattern language
could be used to help design workshops and games,
construct sub-languages using existing and new
patterns, and manage ongoing
pattern-based projects. Existing pattern languages
capture essential lessons and linkages between those
patterns. However, those patterns are somewhat
idealized and "frozen." To use them in actual
situations, stakeholders must select the right
patterns, ensure their suitability and customize
them, and develop and execute a plan. In practice,
such appropriation leading to effective use does not
happen by itself: stakeholders need additional
guidance. We identified candidate meta-patterns
themes that include all aspects of possible pattern
use life-cycles, including pattern creation,
evaluation, planning, problem-mapping, project
generation, etc. In the context of teaching
a college program using the Liberating
Voices pattern language we gathered information at
various stages of 10 quarter-long group projects,
including what types of projects they are proposing,
which patterns they selected for use in the project,
and how they used the patterns — and why. We believe
that a closer look at how patterns are used (in the
fullest sense) will help identify meta-patterns and
how these meta-patterns are used together will help
identify methodologies and other approaches to more
effective pattern use.</div>
<br class="">
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<div style="font-size: 12px;" class="">Douglas
Schuler</div>
<div style="font-size: 12px;" class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:douglas@publicsphereproject.org" class="">douglas@publicsphereproject.org</a></div>
<div style="font-size: 12px;" class="">Twitter:
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<div class="">Liberating
Voices! A Pattern
Language for Communication
Revolution (book)</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12px;" class="">Douglas Schuler</div>
<div style="font-size: 12px;" class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:douglas@publicsphereproject.org" class="">douglas@publicsphereproject.org</a></div>
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<div class="">Creating the World Citizen Parliament</div>
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<div class="">Liberating Voices! A
Pattern Language for Communication
Revolution (book)</div>
<div class=""> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601" class="">http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601</a></div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
HLS SOFTWARE/WIKISERVICE <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.hls-software.at/">www.hls-software.at</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.wikiservice.at/">www.wikiservice.at</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:leitner@hls-software.at">leitner@hls-software.at</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:leitner@wikiservice.at">leitner@wikiservice.at</a>
Helmut Leitner MOBIL: +43 676 7221638 TEL: +43 316 383820
St. Peter Hauptstr. 33d, A-8042 Graz, Österreich
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<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="font-size: 12px;" class="">Douglas Schuler</div><div style="font-size: 12px;" class=""><a href="mailto:douglas@publicsphereproject.org" class="">douglas@publicsphereproject.org</a></div><div style="font-size: 12px;" class="">Twitter: @doug_schuler</div><div style="font-size: 12px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-size: 12px;" class="">------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div></div></span>Public Sphere Project<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="font-size: 12px;" class=""> <a href="http://www.publicsphereproject.org/" class="">http://www.publicsphereproject.org/</a></div></div></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><br class=""></span><div class="">Mailing list ~ Collective Intelligence for the Common Good</div><div class=""> <a href="http://scn9.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci4cg-announce" class="">http://scn9.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci4cg-announce</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Creating the World Citizen Parliament</div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> <a href="http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament" class="">http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament</a></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> </span></div></span>Liberating Voices! A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution (project) <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="font-size: 12px;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""> <a href="http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/" class="">http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/lv</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">Liberating Voices! A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution (book)</div><div class=""> <a href="http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601" class="">http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601</a></div></div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></span></div></span></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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