From tear at spacelab.net Tue Feb 4 04:36:08 1997 From: tear at spacelab.net (steven fleming) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:24:08 -1812 Subject: Interesting Free Offer Message-ID: FOR MORE INFO: please "cut out" the below form on the "cut" lines shown, and fax it, for the fastest reply to: 718-227-9125 (this is a fax # in the USA) or send via smail (first class mail or airmail) to: Tempting Tear-Outs Att. Free-catalogue-by-email Dept 3835 Richmond Ave. Suite #200 Staten Island NY 10312-3828 USA SORRY, BUT.... our software is not set up to accept forms via return email; WE CAN ONLY acknowledge forms sent in via fax or smail. --> IMPORTANT complete directions, to ensure that you get a reply, and more info follow, below the reply form and the catalogue options. *------------cut here/begin-------------------------------------------* Name: Internet email address: Smail home address: City-State-Zip: Country: Work Tel. #: Work Fax #: Home Tel. #: Home Fax #: How did you hear about us (name of person/company who referred you or the area of the internet that you saw us mentioned in): Referral by: Tempting Tear-Outs 020397-l Name of USA mags you currently get on the newsstand or in the store: Name of USA mags you currently get on a subscription basis, through the mail: Name of USA mags you would like price quotes on when we call you: Catalogue version desired (list number of choice below): *------------cut here/end--------------------------------------------* CATALOGUE VERSION CHOICES: 1. This version can be read by everyone, no matter what type of computer you use, or what type of software you use. It is a simple format, with just our entire catalogue pasted into the body of a single email message, 316K in size. If you use pine or elm on a unix system or an advanced software version such as Eudora Pro 3.0 or later, you will most likely receive it as a single email message. However, if your software limits incoming email messages to a certain size, say 32K or so, then your software will split it into multiple email message parts. Whether you receive it as a single email message or multiple part email messages, you can easily paste it into one whole text document with your word processor, in about 10 minutes or so. 2. For more advanced computer users: attached text file ~316K - you must know how to download an attached text file and then be able to open it with your word processor. If in doubt, don't ask for this version. This isn't for internet *newbies.* Better to order option 1 and spend a few minutes pasting them into one whole text document with your word processor, than to waste hours trying to figure how to deal with this option. This version is great for doing word searches and jumping around within the catalogue with your word processing software, if your normal email reading software doesn't allow this. 3. For more advanced Macintosh computer users: compressed attached text file, created with a Stuffit(tm) self-extracting archive (.sea), ~140K. Can be decompressed by any Macintosh computer user; no special expansion software or knowledge of Stuffit (tm) needed. You just double-click on the file icon and it automatically expands (unstuffs). This is for more advanced mac computer users only, as you still have to know how to deal with an attached file. It will cut your download time by 55%. Expands out to the same ~316K file in option #2. See option #2 for more info on what you will need to be able to do. 4. For expert mac or pc computer users: compressed attached text file, created withStuffit(tm), ~116K. Can be decompressed by any computer user who has expansion software to decompress (expand) Stuffit(tm) (.sit) files. This is for more advanced computer users only and will cut your download time by 63%. Expands out to the same ~316K file in option#2. See option #2 for more info on what you will need to be able to do. 5. For expert pc or mac computer users: compressed attached text file, in a .zip file format, ~143K. Can be decompressed by any computer user who has expansion software to decompress (expand) .zip files. This is for more advanced computer users only and will cut your download time by 54%. Expands out to the same ~316K file in option#2. See option #2 for more info on what you will need to be able to do. VERY IMPORTANT DIRECTIONS TO ENSURE THAT YOU GET A REPLY: 1. you must call from an "unblocked number," ie. one that is not blocked from caller id. We are very sorry for this requirement, but our fax software requires this before it allows an incoming fax call to connect. If you have a blocked number, you must first unblock it. In most cases this means dialing *82 from a touch-tone phone (or 1182 from a rotary phone) before you dial 1-718-227-9125. NOTE: If you are not sure if your number is blocked, just try dialing our fax # normally. If you don't get a recording telling you your number is blocked, your number has been transmitted and you may press the start button on your fax when you hear the fax tone from our fax. 2. no reply forms can be accepted by email....only via fax or smail. 3. your form must be typewritten or printed out on your computer printer before you fax it; ie. no handwritten forms can be accepted. 4. faxes with cover pages will be rejected. You must send *only* the reply form. 5. forms not *completely* filled in will not be acknowledged. 6. you will receive a reply within 1 business day directly from the company making the offer via email. Therefore you must have an email address. If you read this message, then you must have an email address, or access to one, at least. :-) 7. your fax must not exceed 1 page in length. Faxes of 2 or more pages will be sensed, then auto-terminated and deleted. Your fax goes directly onto our 5.0 gigabyte hard drive and we must limit all incoming faxes to 1 page. 8. all faxes must begin with: *------------cut here/begin-------------------------------------------* and must end with: *------------cut here/end--------------------------------------------* 9. Any fax not conforming to this format will be sensed by our software, then auto-terminated and deleted from the hard drive, before any human ever gets to see it. 10. The type on your fax must be dark and legible. If in doubt, please print it out darker before faxing it in. If we can't read it, we can't reply to you or send you our FREE catalogue. :-( 11. If this all seems too complicated for faxing, just do it the old fashioned way via smail!!! WHO WE ARE: Tempting Tear-Outs is an advertising company that brings potential new customers to the companies they advertise for. MORE ABOUT THE COMPANY MAKING THE FREE OFFER: The company making the offer is a magazine subscription agency based in the USA. They have over 1,500 popular USA titles available to be shipped to *any* country, including of course, to anywhere in the USA! They offer a FREE 1 yr. subscription to your choice of over 270 of the titles in their catalogue to any new customer using them for the first time. The dollar value of the freebies, based on the subscription prices directly from the publishers, ranges from $6.97 all the way up to $50.00! For new customers in the USA, there is no charge for FPH (foreign postage & handling), so the freebie is 100% free! For new customers living overseas, the only charge on the freebie would be for the FPH (foreign postage & handling). Their president has been in the magazine subscription business since 1973 and they are very customer-service oriented. They will even help you with address changes on your magazines, even if you move from one country to another country. They have thousands of happy customers in over 59 countries. Their price guarantee is very simple: they guarantee that their subscription prices are the lowest available and they will BEAT any legitimate, verifiable offer before you pay them or match it afterwards, by refunding you the difference in price PLUS the cost of the postage stamp you would use sending in the special offer to them, even 6 months after you pay them, as long as it was current at the time of your offer. Does that sound fair? Wouldn't it be great if everything you bought came with that price guarantee? Sometimes they are less than half of the next best deal out there, sometimes just a little cheaper, but always you get the lowest rates without having to shop around. With 1,500 titles on their list, they would like to think that they have also the best selection around! Within the USA, for their USA customers, they are cheaper than all their competitors and even the publishers themselves. This is their price guarantee. The 1 yr. freebie that you get with your first order is completely free! Overseas, (even after you factor in the cost of the FPH (foreign postage & handling) and the conversion from USA Dollars to your currency), on the average, they are generally around one-fourth to one-half of what the newsstands overseas charge locally for USA magazines. On some titles they are as little as one-tenth of what the newsstands charge. They are also the cheapest subscription source for delivery overseas, including directly from the publishers themselves! Some publishers don't even offer subscriptions overseas.........but overseas subscriptions are this company's specialty! They feel that magazines should not be a luxury overseas. In the USA, people buy magazines and then toss them after reading them for just a few minutes or hours. They are so cheap in the USA! Well, this company would like to make it the same way for their overseas members. They are also cheaper than all their competitors in the USA and overseas, including the publishers themselves! It is also *highly unlikely* you will find any of their USA competitors calling you overseas, in order to offer that personal touch, just to sell you a couple of magazines! But that is what this company specializes in and loves doing! Around one-half their business comes from overseas, so they are very patient with new members who only speak limited English as a 2nd language. Subscription prices quoted for overseas consist of the subscription price, plus the FPH. You add the two together and that is your total cost. The exception is the 1 yr. freebie you get with your first order. On that title, you pay *only* the FPH for the 1 yr. term. Their prices are so cheap because when you deal with them, you cut-out all the middlemen. HERE IS HOW YOU CAN GET MORE INFO AND GET STARTED WITH THEM: Simply fax or smail back to us the reply form listed at the top of this message. We will then forward your form on to the subscription agency. They will then email their "big and juicy" catalogue to you, in whichever of the four formats you chose. The catalogue is FREE and makes for hours of fascinating reading, on its own. It includes the complete list of freebies, a complete list of all the titles they sell, as well as detailed descriptions on most of the titles, along with lists of titles by category of interest and their terms of sale. They will then give you a friendly, no-pressure, no obligation, 5-minute call to go over how they work and to answer any questions that you might have, as well as give you up-to-the minute price quotes on any titles you might be considering. They will call you in whatever country you live in, taking the time difference into account. As they like to emphasize the personal touch they give to each new customer, all first-time orders can only be done via phone, so they can answer all your questions completely and personally. Once you have placed your first order via phone, you will be able to place future orders and make inquiries on your account, get price quotes, etc., all via email, if that is most convenient for you. Within the USA, they accept payment via check over the phone, Mastercard, Visa and American Express. Overseas, they accept Mastercard, Visa and American Express, even if your credit card is a local one in local currency! That's our introduction of our client that we represent. We hope that we have piqued your interest and that you will take the next step to get their free catalogue! Thank you for your time and interest. -- Tempting Tear-Outs. For more info on advertising rates, please write us on your company letterhead, w/business card, via smail to: Tempting Tear-Outs, 3835 Richmond Ave. Suite #200, Staten Island NY 10312-3828, USA. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From akin at scn.org Tue Feb 4 11:00:52 1997 From: akin at scn.org (Aki Namioka) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:00:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Community Space and Cyberspace Message-ID: ----------------------------------------------------------------- Please distribute to interested colleagues and appropriate lists. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Community Space & Cyberspace What's the Connection? http://www.scn.org/tech/diac-97 March 1 - 2, 1997, 9:00 am - 5:00 pm University of Washington HUB Seattle, WA USA Will cyberspace destroy society by turning us all into high tech couch potatoes? Or will it provide unprecented opportunities for community involvement? On March 1 and 2, 1997, Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility (CPSR) will present its sixth DIAC ("Directions and Implications of Advanced Computing") conference to help answer those questions. The theme is "Community Space and Cyberspace: What's the Connection?" and our aim is to challenge some of the cyber-spacy hype and bring the discussion back to earth to the communities we live in. Howard Rheingold, best-selling author of "The Virtual Community: Homesteading on the Electronic Frontier" will give the keynote address on March 1. Howard's presentation will be followed by panel discussions on economics, education, high-technology social mediation, and other topics. In these panels computer pioneers, activists, and other thinkers and doers will describe their experiences and ideas on what has changed, what may change, and, most importantly, what citizens can do to make the technology more responsive to community needs. Some of the Panelists include + Peter van den Besselaar, Social Science Informatics, University of Amsterdam and De Digitale Stad (the Digital City), Amsterdam + Amy Borgstrom, Executive Director, ACENET, OH + Amy Bruckman, Researcher, MIT Media Lab, Cambridge, MA + Steve Cisler, Senior Librarian, Apple Computer, Cupertino, CA + Jamie McClelland, Libraries for the Future, New York, NY + Peter Miller, Network Director, Community Technology Center's Network (CTCNet), Newton, MA + Kevin Rocap, California State University at Long Beach + Rolland Waters, CTO, RTIME, Inc. And many others! The second day, March 2, will feature workshops on a variety of topics presented by practitioners from the Pacific Northwest, Boston, Amsterdam, New York City, and many other places. Workshop Topics include + Libraries in Cyberspace + Community Voice Mail for Homeless Clients + Networking for Non-Profits + City Government Programs On-Line + Telecommunications and Educational Reform + On-Line Services: Forum for Collaboration or Technology of Isolation? + Safety in Cyberspace + Civil Liberties in Cyberspace + Navigating the Maze of Telecommunications Policy Changes and many many more. Some Quick Notes... Location: HUB Auditorium, University of Washington, Seattle. Time: On-site egistation opens at 8:00 AM; program begins at 9:00 and ends at 5:00 pm. Registration: $25 students & low income; $50 CPSR and co-sponsors; $75 other. Some scholarships are available. CPSR Benefit: Meet with conference attendees informally while enjoying snacks, drinks, and demos! Saturday, March 1, at Seattle's Speakeasy Cafe. $25 is the suggested donation and additional contributions gladly accepted to help CPSR organize programs like this in the future. Volunteers Wanted: For registration, workshop coordination, virtual conference, and outreach. (And registration is free for volunteers!) Workshops: We are still interested in seeing your workshop proposal. If you have expertise, experience, or concerns to share, please consider proposing a workshop. Please use the form on the web site. Accommodations: We have reserved a number of rooms at the Silver Cloud Inn near the University. Their phone number is 800-205-6940. Rooms are $66 for a single and $78 for a double. Rooms will not be held after the first week in February unless reservations have been made. Air Travel: United Airlines is the official airline for the conference. Please see the conference web site for more information Please join us in Seattle! DIAC-97 will be one of the most timely and significant conferences on Cyberspace themes. We expect an exciting dialogue between educators, librarians, government officials, journalists, and other community members. Please mark you calendars to attend and help us make "Community Space and Cyberspace: What's the Connection?" as important and inspirational as possible. For more information: Doug Schuler, douglas at scn.org, 206.634.0752 ********************************************************************** Aki Namioka, President, Seattle Community Network Association akin at scn.org ~~~~~ Support SCNA - Join Today! ~~~~~ www.scn.org ********************************************************************** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From douglas Thu Feb 6 22:19:39 1997 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:19:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Final program -- "Community Space & Cyberspace" conference Message-ID: <199702070619.WAA25708@scn.org> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please distribute to interested people (especially those without Internet connections) and appropriate distribution lists, forums, and newsgroups. Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Community Space and Cyberspace What's the Connection? FINAL PROGRAM http://www.scn.org/tech/diac-97 March 1 - 2, 1997, 9:00 am - 5:00 pm University of Washington HUB Seattle, WA USA Sponsored by Computer Professionals for Social Responsiblity We gratefully ackowledge the support of Addison-Wesley Publishing Company Network Outreach, Apple Computer, Inc Graduate School of Public Affairs, University of Washington. The John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation The Morino Institute National Science Foundation, Ethics and Values Studies Puget Sound Computer User Speakeasy Foundation Department of Technical Communication, University of Washington March 1, 1997 Welcome (9:00 - 9:15; HUB Auditorium) Doug Schuler, Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility Keynote Address (9:15 - 10:00; HUB Auditorium) Howard Rheingold, Electric Minds, San Francisco, CA Building a Civic Web (10:00 - 11:15; HUB Auditorium) Peter Van den Besselaar, Social Science Informatics, University of Amsterdam and De Digitale Stad ("The Digital City"), Amsterdam, the Netherlands Jamie McClelland, Libraries for the Future, New York, NY Lodis Rhodes, Professor, LBJ School of Public Affairs, University of Texas, Austin, TX Education and Youth (11:30 - 12:45; Room 108) Amy Bruckman, MIT Media Lab, Cambridge, MA Bart Decrem, Executive Director, Plugged In, East Palo Alto, CA Kevin Rocap, California State University at Long Beach, CA Terryl Ross, University of Washington, Seattle, WA Culture and Diversity in Community Space and Cyberspace (11:30 - 12:45; HUB Auditorium) Steve Cisler, Manager, Network Outreach, Apple Research Labs, Cupertino, CA Beth Fraser, Universal Access Project Librarian, DO-IT (Disabilities, Opportunities, Internetworking and Technology) University Libraries, University of Washington Seattle, WA Kit Galloway and Sherrie Rabinowitz, Electronic Cafe International, Santa Monica, CA Madeline Gonzalez, Association for Community Networking, Boulder, CO Lunch (12:45 - 2:00; HUB East Ballroom) Cyberspace Economics: New Opportunities and Challenges (2:00 - 3:30; Room 108) Amy Borgstrom, Executive Director, ACENET, Athens, OH Gary Chapman, Executive Director, 21st Century Project, Austin, TX David Hakken, Professor of Anthropology and Director, Policy Center State University of New York Institute of Technology, Utica/Rome, NY The High-Tech Mediation of Social Interaction (2:00 - 3:30; HUB Auditorium) Ron Cole, Oregon Graduate Institute, Portland, OR Rusel DeMaria and Alex Uttermann, DeMaria Studios, Boulder Creek, CA Sam Tucker, WebActive, a project of Progressive Networks, Seattle, WA Rolland Waters, CTO, RTime Inc., Seattle, WA Critical Futures in Networking (3:45 - 5:15; HUB Auditorium) Carolyn Lukensmeyer, Executive Director, America Speaks, Washington, DC Peter Miller, Community Technology Centers Network (CTCNet), Somerville, MA Richard Sclove, Executive Director, The Loka Institute, Amherst, MA Closing Words (5:15 - 5:30; HUB Auditorium) Aki Namioka, President, Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility Workshops (Nearly complete list) March 2, 1997 9:30 AM - 5:30 PM Accessible Web Design Building a National Grassroots Organization Community Networks and Community Center-Based Technology Access: A Practical Guide to Developing Collaborations Public Policy: Building on Success Business Community Networking Community Voice Mail for Homeless Clients Avoiding Information Overload The Fun Factor - Interactive Entertainment and Community Civil Liberties in Cyberspace Designing for Community Partners for Community Information LEEPing into Distance Education Information Footpaths:Grassroots Technology for Local Economic Development On-line Communication: Forum for Collaboration or Technology of Isolation? Minnesota E-Democracy: Overview/Lessons Forming a Community Networking Association in Minnesota Building a Community Network by Building Community Community Access and Local Economic Development Cyberhate and Cyberhype: Examining the Implications of Virtual White Supremacy "Everything Must Change In Order That Nothing Change":Media Culture, Cyberspaces and Cyberplaces" Rural Telecommunications Legal Issues in Cyberspace Conference Notes Location: HUB Auditorium, University of Washington, Seattle. Time: On-site registation opens at 8:00 AM; program begins at 9:00 and ends at 5:00 pm. CPSR Benefit: Meet with conference attendees informally while enjoying snacks, drinks, and demos! Saturday evening, March 1, at Seattle's Speakeasy Cafe. $25 is the suggested donation and additional contributions gladly accepted to help CPSR organize programs like this in the future. Accommodations: We have reserved a number of rooms at the Silver Cloud Inn near the University. Their phone number is 800-205-6940. Rooms are $66 for a single and $78 for a double. Rooms will not be held after the first week in February unless reservations have been made. Air Travel: United Airlines is the official airline for the conference. Please see the conference web site for more information We hope to see you in Seattle! DIAC-97 will be one of the most timely and significant conferences on Cyberspace themes. We expect an exciting dialogue between educators, librarians, government officials, journalists, and other community members. Please mark you calendars to attend and help us make "Community Space and Cyberspace: What's the Connection?" as important and inspirational as possible. Conference Registration Form NAME: ___________________________________________________________ ADDRESS: ________________________________________________________ PHONE:___________________________________________________________ CITY: ______________________ STATE: ____ ZIP: _______________ COUNTRY: ________________________ E-mail:________________________ Registration Fees CPSR member $50 __ Co-sponsoring org $50 __ Which Organization? ______________ Regular $75 __ Student/Low Income $25 __ Lunch (March 1) $12 __ Lunch (March 2) $12 __ Lunch (Both days) $20 __ CPSR Benefit @ Speakeasy $25 __ Additional donation __ Total enclosed _________ Please print and complete this form and send it with your check to: CPSR/Seattle - Conference Registration P.O. Box 85481 Seattle, WA 98145-1481 USA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bc639 at scn.org Sun Feb 9 12:18:51 1997 From: bc639 at scn.org (Charles Barb) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 12:18:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tear@spacelab.net: Interesting Free Offer] Message-ID: <199702092018.MAA24694@scn.org> ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: tear at spacelab.net ("steven fleming") To: tear at spacelab.net Subject: Interesting Free Offer Date: Tue, 04 Feb FOR MORE INFO: please "cut out" the below form on the "cut" lines shown, and fax it, for the fastest reply to: 718-227-9125 (this is a fax # in the USA) or send via smail (first class mail or airmail) to: Tempting Tear-Outs Att. Free-catalogue-by-email Dept 3835 Richmond Ave. Suite #200 Staten Island NY 10312-3828 USA SORRY, BUT.... our software is not set up to accept forms via return email; WE CAN ONLY acknowledge forms sent in via fax or smail. --> IMPORTANT complete directions, to ensure that you get a reply, and more info follow, below the reply form and the catalogue options. *------------cut here/begin-------------------------------------------* Name: Internet email address: Smail home address: City-State-Zip: Country: Work Tel. #: Work Fax #: Home Tel. #: Home Fax #: How did you hear about us (name of person/company who referred you or the area of the internet that you saw us mentioned in): Referral by: Tempting Tear-Outs 020397-l Name of USA mags you currently get on the newsstand or in the store: Name of USA mags you currently get on a subscription basis, through the mail: Name of USA mags you would like price quotes on when we call you: Catalogue version desired (list number of choice below): *------------cut here/end--------------------------------------------* CATALOGUE VERSION CHOICES: 1. This version can be read by everyone, no matter what type of computer you use, or what type of software you use. It is a simple format, with just our entire catalogue pasted into the body of a single email message, 316K in size. If you use pine or elm on a unix system or an advanced software version such as Eudora Pro 3.0 or later, you will most likely receive it as a single email message. However, if your software limits incoming email messages to a certain size, say 32K or so, then your software will split it into multiple email message parts. Whether you receive it as a single email message or multiple part email messages, you can easily paste it into one whole text document with your word processor, in about 10 minutes or so. 2. For more advanced computer users: attached text file ~316K - you must know how to download an attached text file and then be able to open it with your word processor. If in doubt, don't ask for this version. This isn't for internet *newbies.* Better to order option 1 and spend a few minutes pasting them into one whole text document with your word processor, than to waste hours trying to figure how to deal with this option. This version is great for doing word searches and jumping around within the catalogue with your word processing software, if your normal email reading software doesn't allow this. 3. For more advanced Macintosh computer users: compressed attached text file, created with a Stuffit(tm) self-extracting archive (.sea), ~140K. Can be decompressed by any Macintosh computer user; no special expansion software or knowledge of Stuffit (tm) needed. You just double-click on the file icon and it automatically expands (unstuffs). This is for more advanced mac computer users only, as you still have to know how to deal with an attached file. It will cut your download time by 55%. Expands out to the same ~316K file in option #2. See option #2 for more info on what you will need to be able to do. 4. For expert mac or pc computer users: compressed attached text file, created withStuffit(tm), ~116K. Can be decompressed by any computer user who has expansion software to decompress (expand) Stuffit(tm) (.sit) files. This is for more advanced computer users only and will cut your download time by 63%. Expands out to the same ~316K file in option#2. See option #2 for more info on what you will need to be able to do. 5. For expert pc or mac computer users: compressed attached text file, in a .zip file format, ~143K. Can be decompressed by any computer user who has expansion software to decompress (expand) .zip files. This is for more advanced computer users only and will cut your download time by 54%. Expands out to the same ~316K file in option#2. See option #2 for more info on what you will need to be able to do. VERY IMPORTANT DIRECTIONS TO ENSURE THAT YOU GET A REPLY: 1. you must call from an "unblocked number," ie. one that is not blocked from caller id. We are very sorry for this requirement, but our fax software requires this before it allows an incoming fax call to connect. If you have a blocked number, you must first unblock it. In most cases this means dialing *82 from a touch-tone phone (or 1182 from a rotary phone) before you dial 1-718-227-9125. NOTE: If you are not sure if your number is blocked, just try dialing our fax # normally. If you don't get a recording telling you your number is blocked, your number has been transmitted and you may press the start button on your fax when you hear the fax tone from our fax. 2. no reply forms can be accepted by email....only via fax or smail. 3. your form must be typewritten or printed out on your computer printer before you fax it; ie. no handwritten forms can be accepted. 4. faxes with cover pages will be rejected. You must send *only* the reply form. 5. forms not *completely* filled in will not be acknowledged. 6. you will receive a reply within 1 business day directly from the company making the offer via email. Therefore you must have an email address. If you read this message, then you must have an email address, or access to one, at least. :-) 7. your fax must not exceed 1 page in length. Faxes of 2 or more pages will be sensed, then auto-terminated and deleted. Your fax goes directly onto our 5.0 gigabyte hard drive and we must limit all incoming faxes to 1 page. 8. all faxes must begin with: *------------cut here/begin-------------------------------------------* and must end with: *------------cut here/end--------------------------------------------* 9. Any fax not conforming to this format will be sensed by our software, then auto-terminated and deleted from the hard drive, before any human ever gets to see it. 10. The type on your fax must be dark and legible. If in doubt, please print it out darker before faxing it in. If we can't read it, we can't reply to you or send you our FREE catalogue. :-( 11. If this all seems too complicated for faxing, just do it the old fashioned way via smail!!! WHO WE ARE: Tempting Tear-Outs is an advertising company that brings potential new customers to the companies they advertise for. MORE ABOUT THE COMPANY MAKING THE FREE OFFER: The company making the offer is a magazine subscription agency based in the USA. They have over 1,500 popular USA titles available to be shipped to *any* country, including of course, to anywhere in the USA! They offer a FREE 1 yr. subscription to your choice of over 270 of the titles in their catalogue to any new customer using them for the first time. The dollar value of the freebies, based on the subscription prices directly from the publishers, ranges from $6.97 all the way up to $50.00! For new customers in the USA, there is no charge for FPH (foreign postage & handling), so the freebie is 100% free! For new customers living overseas, the only charge on the freebie would be for the FPH (foreign postage & handling). Their president has been in the magazine subscription business since 1973 and they are very customer-service oriented. They will even help you with address changes on your magazines, even if you move from one country to another country. They have thousands of happy customers in over 59 countries. Their price guarantee is very simple: they guarantee that their subscription prices are the lowest available and they will BEAT any legitimate, verifiable offer before you pay them or match it afterwards, by refunding you the difference in price PLUS the cost of the postage stamp you would use sending in the special offer to them, even 6 months after you pay them, as long as it was current at the time of your offer. Does that sound fair? Wouldn't it be great if everything you bought came with that price guarantee? Sometimes they are less than half of the next best deal out there, sometimes just a little cheaper, but always you get the lowest rates without having to shop around. With 1,500 titles on their list, they would like to think that they have also the best selection around! Within the USA, for their USA customers, they are cheaper than all their competitors and even the publishers themselves. This is their price guarantee. The 1 yr. freebie that you get with your first order is completely free! Overseas, (even after you factor in the cost of the FPH (foreign postage & handling) and the conversion from USA Dollars to your currency), on the average, they are generally around one-fourth to one-half of what the newsstands overseas charge locally for USA magazines. On some titles they are as little as one-tenth of what the newsstands charge. They are also the cheapest subscription source for delivery overseas, including directly from the publishers themselves! Some publishers don't even offer subscriptions overseas.........but overseas subscriptions are this company's specialty! They feel that magazines should not be a luxury overseas. In the USA, people buy magazines and then toss them after reading them for just a few minutes or hours. They are so cheap in the USA! Well, this company would like to make it the same way for their overseas members. They are also cheaper than all their competitors in the USA and overseas, including the publishers themselves! It is also *highly unlikely* you will find any of their USA competitors calling you overseas, in order to offer that personal touch, just to sell you a couple of magazines! But that is what this company specializes in and loves doing! Around one-half their business comes from overseas, so they are very patient with new members who only speak limited English as a 2nd language. Subscription prices quoted for overseas consist of the subscription price, plus the FPH. You add the two together and that is your total cost. The exception is the 1 yr. freebie you get with your first order. On that title, you pay *only* the FPH for the 1 yr. term. Their prices are so cheap because when you deal with them, you cut-out all the middlemen. HERE IS HOW YOU CAN GET MORE INFO AND GET STARTED WITH THEM: Simply fax or smail back to us the reply form listed at the top of this message. We will then forward your form on to the subscription agency. They will then email their "big and juicy" catalogue to you, in whichever of the four formats you chose. The catalogue is FREE and makes for hours of fascinating reading, on its own. It includes the complete list of freebies, a complete list of all the titles they sell, as well as detailed descriptions on most of the titles, along with lists of titles by category of interest and their terms of sale. They will then give you a friendly, no-pressure, no obligation, 5-minute call to go over how they work and to answer any questions that you might have, as well as give you up-to-the minute price quotes on any titles you might be considering. They will call you in whatever country you live in, taking the time difference into account. As they like to emphasize the personal touch they give to each new customer, all first-time orders can only be done via phone, so they can answer all your questions completely and personally. Once you have placed your first order via phone, you will be able to place future orders and make inquiries on your account, get price quotes, etc., all via email, if that is most convenient for you. Within the USA, they accept payment via check over the phone, Mastercard, Visa and American Express. Overseas, they accept Mastercard, Visa and American Express, even if your credit card is a local one in local currency! That's our introduction of our client that we represent. We hope that we have piqued your interest and that you will take the next step to get their free catalogue! Thank you for your time and interest. -- Tempting Tear-Outs. For more info on advertising rates, please write us on your company letterhead, w/business card, via smail to: Tempting Tear-Outs, 3835 Richmond Ave. Suite #200, Staten Island NY 10312-3828, USA. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe services END This is some advertising I just found in my mail box. It was un- solicited. Can you do anything about it? I messaged you before about some other advertising I found and I believe you needed some more information so I am forwarding this to you for documentation. -- ___ Charlie Barb |@:____ SHAWCROFT, BARB & ASSOCIATES, INC | ;;;;| Business Training for Small Construction Contractors __0====0-((__E-Mail: bc639 at scn.org________Phone/FAX: 206-236-1990 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org Sun Feb 9 15:06:37 1997 From: kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org (Kurt Cockrum) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 15:06:37 -0800 Subject: Re the obnoxious Tempting Tearouts spam Message-ID: <199702092306.PAA03412@grogatch.seaslug.org> Charlie Barb said: >[...quoted spammage deleted...] >This is some advertising I just found in my mail box. It was un- >solicited. Can you do anything about it? I messaged you before >about some other advertising I found and I believe you needed some >more information so I am forwarding this to you for documentation. Generally when I get such spammage (I got the same stuff Charlie did) I reply, quoting THE WHOLE THING (mailheaders and all, especially not deleting the received-log part) and send it to root and postmaster at the sites appearing early in the received-chain (the collection of e-mail headers beginning with the string "Received: ", especially those sites near the beginning of the chain that appear to be part of the originating domain or adjacent to it), with a note explaining that this is a reply to unsolicited e-mail, and that it "looks like a SPAM!". Generally it's not too useful to do this to postmasters and roots of sites adjacent to your ISP; those sites are just "common carriers" and can't reasonably be held responsible for content. But the admins of sites that connect the miscreant to the backbone (i. e. their ISP) can and should be bugged about the spam. The only difficulties I've seen are that many of the originating sites appear to be non-existent (at least to DNS). This may be a property of a pseudo-site with a variable IP address, i. e. when they don't actually have a SLIP or PPP connection going to their ISP they effectively don't exist as far as DNS is concerned, and so mail to them bounces because SMTP believes what DNS says about the site. Just throw out the bounced stuff. But their ISP should appear in the mailheader. Complaining to the roots *and* postmasters at such sites is pretty effective if the ISP is reputable. I've gotten replies from the roots at such sites indicating that they have kicked off the offending user, so they do pay attention. Your mileage may vary, according to the conscience of the target root or postmaster. Complaining to the offending ISP's ISP can also have good results. If the unsolicited e-mail contains instructions on what to do to avoid future mail contact or to get removed from their mailing list, you should generally follow it (but don't do anything that involves sending money or other consideration). Often there's a line that says something like: "If you don't want to receive more mailings from us, send e-mail with a line saying `remove me from your mailing list'". That should be obeyed, with cc's to postmaster at offending.site and root at offending.site as usual. Users with consumer-grade mail user agents that trim mailheaders or don't allow the user to configure what gets edited out of the mailheader lose here. They should complain about that to their mail user agent vendor or change products or even (dare I say it?? :) get a *real* operating system :) :) (might I suggest Linux?). Of course, an alternative is to become technically enough proficient with the internet to exploit various control mechanisms built into it that cause pain to the offending sites. Basically, this means boning up on the internet RFC's, which is not "life-compatible". This may or may not be "illegal" or "unethical". I don't consider myself qualified to advise on the illegality or ethicity of any activity. Many things that I think are perfectly OK the "outside world" thinks are "unethical" or "criminal", and many things the "outside world" thinks are OK, or even laudable, to me appear to plumb the depths of evil. I only know that it's possible to do certain things. If you take this route, it's advisable not to brag about it, even to those you trust. Of course, I don't advocate this. That would be wrong. --kurt Q: How can you tell if somebody's a radio announcer? A: Ask them for the name of the 7th planet of the solar system. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jj at scn.org Sun Feb 9 16:17:03 1997 From: jj at scn.org (John Johnson) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 16:17:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re the obnoxious Tempting Tearouts spam In-Reply-To: <199702092306.PAA03412@grogatch.seaslug.org> Message-ID: I am generally inclined towards Kurt's response to spam (returning it with a complaint to the user's postmaster and/or root). However, an important caveat: it is possible to spoof the return address. You would not want to be sucked into mail bombing an innocent party, would you? As Kurt points out, one needs to look at the complete set of message headers (save the message as a file), but even those could be doubtful. For more discussion and a good set of references, check: http://digital.net/~gandalf/spamfaq.html === JJ ================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org Mon Feb 10 11:03:21 1997 From: kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org (Kurt Cockrum) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:03:21 -0800 Subject: Re the obnoxious Tempting Tearouts spam Message-ID: <199702101903.LAA15850@grogatch.seaslug.org> jj said: >I am generally inclined towards Kurt's response to spam (returning it >with a complaint to the user's postmaster and/or root). However, an >important caveat: it is possible to spoof the return address. You would >not want to be sucked into mail bombing an innocent party, would you? [...] >[...] Sending mail back to the addresses indicated in the header of received mail is not mail-bombing. If we desist from action based on the assumption that the header is lying to us, then when, if ever, do we know if the header is telling us the truth? Best to *assume* (in all innocence) the header is correct (keep the saved message if necessary) and to proceed on that assumption. It should never be unethical to *reply* to mail in one's mailbox, or to protest to apparent senders. If it *is*, it's a sign that the operant ethical system is *broken* and maybe needs to be replaced by one that serves the user better. In other words, the recipient of unsolicited e-mail deserves the same presumption of innocence as the possibly-spoofed sender, and by replying in the manner I've previously described, that presumption should not go away. I don't believe that mail recipients have a duty to determine the authenticity of reply addresses, in the absence of tools that can reliably do so. Users shouldn't be blamed for defects of the system. Moreover, we aren't talking about random spewage from some anonymous mail-server or random vandal; these are advertising messages that, for them to work, and do the originator some good, require an accurate address to respond to, whether snailmail, e-mail, or phone. It's a *business* doing this, and they can't conduct a business without leaving tracks. So it's fair to assume that the reply addresses in a piece of unsolicited e-mail are authentic. Be aware that often there is embedded in the header IP addresses that can provide clues that point to the miscreant, provided one has access to the right tools. This is determined not only by the originating site, but the sites the originator connects to. So to achieve complete spoofing requires the *collusion* of multiple sites, not simply an ambitious root-entrepreneur (AFAIK). It should be remembered that while "2 wrongs may not make a right", in a certain absolutist sense, the difference between the pair and the singleton can be made arbitrarily small, below the threshold of perception. Lastly, for the aesthete, poetic justice is far more satisfying than absolute justice, which, after all, is only the workings of a rather crudely designed juggernaut with humans as its parts, lacking all artistic merit, designed *not* to dispense "justice" but to maintain conditions of sufficient harmony as not to threaten the existing power structure, the maintainers of the "justice machine". Do pay attention to the man behind the curtain. Enough philosophy for the day... :) --kurt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jj at scn.org Mon Feb 10 15:59:18 1997 From: jj at scn.org (John Johnson) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:59:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re the obnoxious Tempting Tearouts spam In-Reply-To: <199702101903.LAA15850@grogatch.seaslug.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Kurt Cockrum wrote: > [....] > Moreover, we aren't talking about random spewage from > some anonymous mail-server or random vandal; these are advertising > messages that, for them to work, and do the originator some good, require > an accurate address to respond to, whether snailmail, e-mail, or phone. > It's a *business* doing this, and they can't conduct a business without > leaving tracks. So it's fair to assume that the reply addresses in > a piece of unsolicited e-mail are authentic. > Unfortunately, no. 1) How do we know that a given spamage is not some malicious vandal _appearing_ as a legitimate (though egregiously stupid) business, in order to provoke retaliation? 2) Recall that the "Tear outs" spam had a line about "sorry, our e-mail can't accept return responses"(!). They want their responses via phone or snail mail. Some of these offers use fictitiouse-mail addresses. (A very recent example: Media.Brokers at scn.org. Huh?!) === JJ ================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org Tue Feb 11 11:11:46 1997 From: kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org (Kurt Cockrum) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:11:46 -0800 Subject: Re the obnoxious Tempting Tearouts spam (last word? :) Message-ID: <199702111911.LAA23319@grogatch.seaslug.org> I said >> [....] >> Moreover, we aren't talking about random spewage from >> some anonymous mail-server or random vandal; these are advertising >> messages that, for them to work, and do the originator some good, require >> an accurate address to respond to, whether snailmail, e-mail, or phone. >> It's a *business* doing this, and they can't conduct a business without >> leaving tracks. So it's fair to assume that the reply addresses in >> a piece of unsolicited e-mail are authentic. jj said: >Unfortunately, no. > >1) How do we know that a given spamage is not some malicious vandal >_appearing_ as a legitimate (though egregiously stupid) business, in order >to provoke retaliation? We don't. But this way lies a paralysis of infinite regress and electronic solipsism, if we assume that all that goes clunk in our mailbox is illusory or unreal or forged. This is just plain unacceptable IMO; even accidentally injuring others is better. After all, telling them the situation and apologising will probably fix that. If they are civilized, they will graciously accept the apology and perhaps even offer assistance; if not, then they join the pack of electronic barbarians and we are no worse off than we were before. >2) Recall that the "Tear outs" spam had a line about "sorry, our e-mail >can't accept return responses"(!). They want their responses via phone or >snail mail. Some of these offers use fictitiouse-mail addresses. (A very >recent example: Media.Brokers at scn.org. Huh?!) Well, that's worth a complaint to somebody. Generally, in most domains other than the internet, it's illegal or bad manners at best to take on bogus names. Criminals often take on aliases. Businesses have to publish legal notices in newspapers of record that they are "DBA" (Doing Business As) some other name if that differs radically from the name of the business. There's no reason why that can't be the case on the internet, too. In fact, a domain name is just another "dba" name. In any case, at least one of the addresses (whether e-mail, snailmail or phone, as I've said before) has to be authentic if it's a real ad. If it's not, it's important that the addressees know that their name is being used in vain. As far as "Media.Brokers at scn.org" goes, that sounds like a SMOP (small matter of programming). We are supposed to know who our users are, and the obvious agent for inspecting mail headers is (you guessed it) the dreaded sendmail application. That looks like it could be fixed with another rule set in sendmail.cf that would inquire the user data base (/etc/passwd) (it ought to be possible to do this, yes, Randy?) and if not found, just reroute such mail to a "bogus username" file for later action, or even silently to the bitbucket rather than sending it out. It's important to remember that being civilized is not the same as abject pacifism. When Christ said to "turn the other cheek" it is commonly interpreted to mean "present the other cheek for another blow like the first", but it can also be interpreted as "turn out of the line of attack". (IMO this is one of the most egregious errors of christian interpretation). Many years ago my aikido sensei told me this; the context was that a strong and committed attack with no opposing force (no target to connect with and absorb the impact, because it was "turned" out of the way) will leave the attacker off-balance, and for a very small time window, fatally (fatally in the sense of aborting the attack, not killing the attacker. Although the latter was possible, it would result in a subsequent drubbing by the sensei, which nobody wanted. Aikido is a *minimalist* art, not a maximalist one) vulnerable. Sorry to ramble on so, but I hope I've made my point. Most of the problems on the internet are because we have failed to act and think for ourselves, but instead have let groups of elected and appointed rogues and bogus cops act on our behalf, and dictate what our manners, morals and mores are. So far this has been to our great collective detriment. I've about run out of steam on this topic, no doubt to everyone's relief. --kurt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From nancyk at scn.org Wed Feb 12 23:13:51 1997 From: nancyk at scn.org (NancyK) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:13:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: per minute charge? deadline 2/13/97 Message-ID: Hi all, Please send a note to the FCC sometime before the end of thursday--their cutoff period for comments. Nancy ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:32:21 -0500 Reply-To: Net-Happenings Subject: NET-HAPPENINGS Digest - 11 Feb 1997 - Special issue To: Recipients of NET-HAPPENINGS digests NETWK> May Day, May Day! FCC imposing per-minute charges? http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html Dear Internet Users, Please read this and email the FCC sending your comments concerning that the FCC wanting to impose per minute charges for your internet service. Your local telephone company has filed a proposal with the FCC to impose per minute charges for your internet service. They contend that your usage has or will hinder the operation of the telephone network. Internet usage will diminish if users were required to pay additional per minute charges. The FCC has created an email box for your comments, responses must be received by February 13, 1997. Send your comments to isp at fcc.gov and tell them what you think. Every phone company is in on this one, and they are trying to sneak it in just under the wire for litigation. Let everyone you know here this one. Get the e-mail address to everyone you can think of. isp at fcc.gov Please forward this email to all your friends on the internet so all our voices may be heard! [BY: Tricia Zelis, Designers Forum http://home.earthlink.net/~designerforum Per -INETUSE at LISTSERV.CC.EMORY.EDU ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:59:59 -0800 (PST) From: NancyK To: isp at fcc.gov Subject: Internet charges Hello, I am writing to express my concern that a per minute charge may be imposed by the FCC on internet service. The telephone services that are suffering due to the surge in internet usage is due mainly to the fact that the phone companies have heavily marketed extra phone lines and have simply run out of lines. This was poor planning on their part; however, they *are* charging for the lines, which should balance things out. I am a volunteer with Seattle Community Network, a non-profit organization which offers free email and limited internet service to the community. We impose a 45 minute restriction on each connection and are able to serve many people who might otherwise not be able to obtain email and internet access. The public library, television and radio services do not charge by the minute, nor should the telephone company. I know that I am not alone in my sentiments. Thank you, Nancy Kunitsugu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From ljbeedle at scn.org Thu Feb 13 07:29:31 1997 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:29:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: per minute charge? deadline 2/13/97 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There are rules for submitting comments. Additional information can be found at their web page http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html You must put the docket number in the subject line and include your name and address. I did file comments also. One point, it is not just lines that the telephone companies are claiming, it's central office equipment and all the associated provisioning. Remember they already recover these costs in the per line charges as established by the state commissions. Lois Beedle * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bf578 at scn.org Thu Feb 13 11:57:56 1997 From: bf578 at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:57:56 -0800 Subject: per minute charge? deadline 2/13/97 -more info Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006d44dc@scn.org> Anyway, check this out....from today's TOURBUS by Patrick Crispin: ---------- FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC ---------------------------- Over the past couple of weeks, you may have received e-mail letters telling you that Many local telephone companies have filed a proposal with the FCC [The United States' Federal Communications Commission] to impose per minute charges for Internet service. They contend that use of Internet has or will hinder the operation of the telephone network. At first, I thought that this was simply a new version of the old "modem tax" hoax (http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_83.html#SEC84) that has been floating around the Net since *1987*. After all, the current FCC story has all of the markings of a classic urban legend: 1. It uses official-looking language; 2. It mentions a government agency or an organization with which everyone is familiar; 3. It contains a plea for you to take some sort of immediate action; and 4. It requests that you forward the warning letter to as many people as possible. Besides, according to an article that appeared in this morning's Edupage, ONLINE COMPANIES ASK TELCOS, "WHERE'S THE BEEF?" Tired of telephone companies' complaints that Internet usage is overwhelming their network capacity, the Internet Access Coalition has released findings contending that Net usage is, in reality, a bonanza for the Bells. The study found that local carriers received a total of $1.4 billion in 1995 in revenues resulting from the installation of second lines in homes, while spending only $245 million to beef up their networks for the additional usage. A Bell Atlantic spokesman says the real problem is that the telcos have no idea when a line will be used for data rather than voice, and thus tied up longer. Both sides agree that the ultimate solution is higher capacity networks. (Business Week 17 Feb 97) Well, out of curiosity -- and out of a deep-felt desire to avoid studying for the two major economics tests that I have next week -- your fearless bus driver decided to call the FCC in Washington to see if anyone there was willing to talk about this rather explosive issue. Unfortunately, I soon discovered that the FCC only has one employee, she is a secretary, and her job is to transfer all incoming telephone calls into voice mail hell. :) Actually, I talked to some nice people at the FCC who faxed me a 10 page explanation of what's *really* going on. Unfortunately, the 10 page explanation was written in "FCC-ese," so I am going to have to translate their explanation into English for you (and I can assure you that, since I know *NOTHING* about telephony, my translation will probably contain a few inaccuracies; if it does, please let me know). First, some local telephone companies have indeed asked the FCC to allow them to assess a per minute access charge on the telephone lines used by Internet Service Providers. Local telephone companies currently charge long-distance carriers (like AT&T and MCI) an interstate access charge for the long-distance traffic that travels over their local lines, and the local telephone companies would like to see this charge extended to include the high-speed lines that your local Internet Service Provider uses to access the Internet. In December, the FCC rejected the telephone companies' request and tentatively concluded "that the existing pricing structure for information services should remain in place." In other words, the FCC has tentatively concluded that Internet service providers should *NOT* be subject to the interstate access charges that local telephone companies currently assess on long-distance carriers. The FCC now seeks the public's comments on this conclusion. Unfortunately, the "warning" letter that is currently circulating around the Internet gives the impression that some sort of sinister operation is afoot here, that the FCC and the telephone companies are trying to sneak this proposal through without anyone noticing, and that it is up to each and every one of us to stop the evil FCC. What garbage. In fact, the FCC has, at least tentatively, REJECTED the telephone companies' proposal. The FCC is now simply asking you if you agree or disagree with their decision. The most disappointing aspect of this whole situation is that because of the misinformation that has been distributed across the Internet over the past couple of weeks, the FCC has received 100,000+ e-mail letters, most of which flame them for making a decision that EVERYONE AGREES WITH! Hands down, the flaming of the FCC is one of the Internet's most shameful acts ever. I also discovered another thing about the FCC that increased my respect for their organization one-hundred-fold. Part of the 10 page explanation that the FCC sent me states that their "existing rules have been designed for traditional circuit-switched voice networks, and thus may hinder the development of emerging packet-switched data networks." Because of this, the FCC is also seeking the public's comments on the implications of the Internet and its usage through the public switched telephone network. Folks, *ANY* government agency that stops and says 'hey, we can ALWAYS use some more information so that we are better prepared for whatever happens in the future' has earned my respect and admiration. By the way, most of the information that I have shared with you today can be found on the FCC's "ISP" homepage at http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html If you would like to send your comments to the folks at the FCC (the deadline for comments about their decision not to impose interstate access changes on Internet service providers is Friday, February 14th), make sure that you check the FCC's ISP Web page first. At the bottom of this page are some pretty specific instructions on what you need to put in the subject line of you e-mail letter before you submit it to the FCC. Personally, I'm going to leave the poor folks at the FCC alone for a while. They seem to be doing a great job in the face of unnecessary (and misinformed) opposition. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From alboss at wolfenet.com Thu Feb 13 11:37:45 1997 From: alboss at wolfenet.com (Albert W. Boss) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:37:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: PSA: truth about phone charges for net service (fwd) Message-ID: Here's further information on the FCC thing. Patrick Crispen is a trusted source of information, and his research does add a lot more information than we had before. I still sent in my opinion to the FCC, but it's interesting to see how the story has changed since it went into the Ether. ------ forwarded message ------- To: CD4URBAN at u.washington.edu From: jcook at fox.nstn.ca (Joanne Cook) Subject: PSA: truth about phone charges for net service The following is excerpted from Patrick Douglas Crispen's invaluable net information list, Tourbus. FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC ---------------------------- Over the past couple of weeks, you may have received e-mail letters telling you that Many local telephone companies have filed a proposal with the FCC [The United States' Federal Communications Commission] to impose per minute charges for Internet service. They contend that use of Internet has or will hinder the operation of the telephone network. Well, out of curiosity -- and out of a deep-felt desire to avoid studying for the two major economics tests that I have next week -- your fearless bus driver decided to call the FCC in Washington to see if anyone there was willing to talk about this rather explosive issue. First, some local telephone companies have indeed asked the FCC to allow them to assess a per minute access charge on the telephone lines used by Internet Service Providers. Local telephone companies currently charge long-distance carriers (like AT&T and MCI) an interstate access charge for the long-distance traffic that travels over their local lines, and the local telephone companies would like to see this charge extended to include the high-speed lines that your local Internet Service Provider uses to access the Internet. In December, the FCC rejected the telephone companies' request and tentatively concluded "that the existing pricing structure for information services should remain in place." In other words, the FCC has tentatively concluded that Internet service providers should *NOT* be subject to the interstate access charges that local telephone companies currently assess on long-distance carriers. The FCC now seeks the public's comments on this conclusion. Unfortunately, the "warning" letter that is currently circulating around the Internet gives the impression that some sort of sinister operation is afoot here, that the FCC and the telephone companies are trying to sneak this proposal through without anyone noticing, and that it is up to each and every one of us to stop the evil FCC. What garbage. In fact, the FCC has, at least tentatively, REJECTED the telephone companies' proposal. The FCC is now simply asking you if you agree or disagree with their decision. The most disappointing aspect of this whole situation is that because of the misinformation that has been distributed across the Internet over the past couple of weeks, the FCC has received 100,000+ e-mail letters, most of which flame them for making a decision that EVERYONE AGREES WITH! Hands down, the flaming of the FCC is one of the Internet's most shameful acts ever. I also discovered another thing about the FCC that increased my respect for their organization one-hundred-fold. Part of the 10 page explanation that the FCC sent me states that their "existing rules have been designed for traditional circuit-switched voice networks, and thus may hinder the development of emerging packet-switched data networks." Because of this, the FCC is also seeking the public's comments on the implications of the Internet and its usage through the public switched telephone network. Folks, *ANY* government agency that stops and says 'hey, we can ALWAYS use some more information so that we are better prepared for whatever happens in the future' has earned my respect and admiration. By the way, most of the information that I have shared with you today can be found on the FCC's "ISP" homepage at http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html If you would like to send your comments to the folks at the FCC (the deadline for comments about their decision not to impose interstate access changes on Internet service providers is Friday, February 14th), make sure that you check the FCC's ISP Web page first. At the bottom of this page are some pretty specific instructions on what you need to put in the subject line of you e-mail letter before you submit it to the FCC. Personally, I'm going to leave the poor folks at the FCC alone for a while. They seem to be doing a great job in the face of unnecessary (and misinformed) opposition. TOURBUS - (c) Copyright 1997, Patrick Crispen and Bob Rankin All rights reserved. Redistribution is allowed only with permission. Send this copy to 3 friends and tell them to get on the Bus! (\__/) .~ ~. )) /O O ./ .' Patrick Douglas Crispen {O__, \ { The University of Alabama / . . ) \ crispen at campus.mci.net |-| '-' \ } http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~crispen/ .( _( )_.' '---.~_ _ _& Warning: squirrels. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From ljbeedle at scn.org Thu Feb 13 15:51:03 1997 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:51:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: PSA: truth about phone charges for net service (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have also investigated the FCC docket and have taken the time to download and review most of the comments. We should never blast the FCC anyway, to be taken seriously you must be rational with your comments, the idea is that they will rule in the public interest. Do read their material on the web site, the comments are in 3 huge files so I don't recommend that for everyone, but the docket material does say what is proposed and what comments they are seeking. Lois * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From namioka at netcom.com Fri Feb 14 09:39:55 1997 From: namioka at netcom.com (Aki Namioka) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:39:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: per minute charge? deadline 2/13/97 -more info In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006d44dc@scn.org> Message-ID: Hello All, Yesterday, I spent the day in Olympia listening to US West try to make a case for charging a per minute rate on people making connections to ISPs. I also heard them advocate mandatory measured service, make a few jabs at the UTC and give a bunch of misleading statistics about the situation. THIS IS FOR REAL. THE RBOCS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY WANT TO CHARGE EXTRA FOR ACCESS TO ISPs (this would include us - SCN). Please read today's (2/14) article in the P-I business section by Bruce Ramsey. - Aki * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From namioka at netcom.com Fri Feb 14 15:19:52 1997 From: namioka at netcom.com (Aki Namioka) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:19:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Summary of Hearing and Call to ACTION Message-ID: Sorry for the spam - but this is an important issue and it looks like it won't go away any time soon. Rich Littleton and I went to Olympia yesterday (check out today's P-I business section article by Bruce Ramsey esp. the last paragraph :-) ) to attend the hearing on ISPs and the impact on the phone infrastructure. Here is Rich's trip report with a few edits by me. Thanks, Aki ------------------------------------------------------------- SCN at the Senate Energy and Utilities Commitee Hearing - 2/13/97 ACTION ALERT FOR SCN The Energy & Utilities Committee of the Washington State Senate held a hearing on *Issues Pertaining to Access to the Internet. The real function of the hearing was for U.S. West to argue for increased rates for IPSs because, according to U.S. West, these sites were leading to blockages on regular telephone service. Several groups including ISPs, electronics associations, Microsoft, and Seattle Community Network testified in opposition to the U.S. West perspective, saying that there are several reasons for the increased use of the telephone lines, including telephone promotional drives to get more long-distance users, increases in faxes, growth in business, and population increases, as well as internet growth. The thrust of the groups opposing the U.S. West approach was (1) blaming the internet growth was questionable; (2) internet, and other communication growth was desirable; (3) putting prices on access to the internet will reduce use and growth; (4) the growth was foreseeable and U.S. West simply did a bad job of expanding its infrastructure; (5) U.S. West is making sufficient revenues from the existing arrangement to handle any needed improvements. Aki Namioka testified that internet access should be kept available to the population at large and freenets would be hurt by access charges. She made the point that in order to truly make the "information highway" available to everybody, measured service and other similar pricing schemes proposed by US West would have a negative impact. Rich Littleton, an SCN member, testified that the model to use on this question was the model of a public highway, open to all, rather than a toll road, which would mean greater prices and fewer users. It appeared that the momentum of the discussion went against U.S. West. The senators did not seem enthusiastic about the U.S. West approach. One senator, Lena Swenson, made the point that increased prices would lead to decreased use. The members of the committee are: Dino Rossi, Harold Hochstatter, Bill Finkbeiner (chairman), Lisa Brown, Ken Jacobsen, Lena Swenson, Gary Strannigan. We request that you contact the committee members and reinforce one of the points mentioned above. U.S. West will continue to persuade the legislature and we need to get our side heard. The members of the committee (and their e-mail addresses) are: [1] Dino Rossi (rossi_di at leg.wa.gov) [2] Harold Hochstatter (hochstat_ha at leg.wa.gov) [3] Bill Finkbeiner (finkbein_bi at leg.wa.gov) [4] Lisa Brown (brown_li at leg.wa.gov) [5] Ken Jacobsen (no e-mail addr. listed)@leg.wa.gov [6] Lena Swanson (swanson_le at leg.wa.gov) [7] Gary Stannigan (stannig_ga at leg.wa.gov) Thank you. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * scna-board at scn.org For communication with members of the SCNA Board of Directors. To unsubscribe, send a message to listowner Stefani Banerian (banerian at scn.org) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From dltooley at speakeasy.org Fri Feb 14 18:25:47 1997 From: dltooley at speakeasy.org (Doug Tooley) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 18:25:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re the obnoxious Tempting Tearouts spam In-Reply-To: <199702101903.LAA15850@grogatch.seaslug.org> Message-ID: Personally I favor graphic files as enclosures on such files - at a meg a shot they don't take long to take up serious room - perhaps we need a spam response button that automatically includes same in our PINE implementation! :-) DT * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From dltooley at speakeasy.org Fri Feb 14 19:07:56 1997 From: dltooley at speakeasy.org (Doug Tooley) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:07:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: per minute charge? deadline 2/13/97 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FYI: Aki was quoted in this morning's P-I (Friday 2/14) regarding this same subject, along with a private ISP provider, our dear friend Troy Roper. -DT * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From ljbeedle at scn.org Fri Feb 14 21:41:09 1997 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 21:41:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Summary of Hearing and Call to ACTION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is also an article in todays Times (Feb 14) that except for the headline seems to state that no rates have been applied for at this time. You can see other information and obtain all hearing schedules via the Washington Utilities and Transportation web page. Lois Beedle When you're retired you don't get weekends off * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jrh at wolfenet.com Sat Feb 15 01:51:08 1997 From: jrh at wolfenet.com (jrh at wolfenet.com) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 01:51:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Summary of Hearing and Call to ACTION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Aki Namioka wrote: [...deletion...] > SCN at the Senate Energy and Utilities Commitee > Hearing - 2/13/97 > ACTION ALERT FOR SCN > > The Energy & Utilities Committee of the Washington State Senate held > a hearing on *Issues Pertaining to Access to the Internet. The real > function of the hearing was for U.S. West to argue for increased rates for > IPSs because, according to U.S. West, these sites were leading to > blockages on regular telephone service. [...deletion...] > The members of the committee are: Dino Rossi, Harold Hochstatter, > Bill Finkbeiner (chairman), Lisa Brown, Ken Jacobsen, Lena Swenson, Gary > Strannigan. > > We request that you contact the committee members and reinforce one > of the points mentioned above. U.S. West will continue to persuade the > legislature and we need to get our side heard. > > The members of the committee (and their e-mail addresses) are: > > [1] Dino Rossi (rossi_di at leg.wa.gov) > [2] Harold Hochstatter (hochstat_ha at leg.wa.gov) > [3] Bill Finkbeiner (finkbein_bi at leg.wa.gov) > [4] Lisa Brown (brown_li at leg.wa.gov) > [5] Ken Jacobsen (no e-mail addr. listed)@leg.wa.gov > [6] Lena Swanson (swanson_le at leg.wa.gov) > [7] Gary Stannigan (stannig_ga at leg.wa.gov) > The e-mail address for Ken Jacobsen is: jacobsen_ke at leg.wa.gov * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From davidb Sat Feb 15 11:53:19 1997 From: davidb (David Barts) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 11:53:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re the obnoxious Tempting Tearouts spam In-Reply-To: from "Doug Tooley" at Feb 14, 97 06:25:47 pm Message-ID: <199702151953.LAA09172@scn.org> Doug Tooley writes: > Personally I favor graphic files as enclosures on such files - at a meg a > shot they don't take long to take up serious room - perhaps we need a spam > response button that automatically includes same in our PINE > implementation! :-) While tempting, this runs the risk of victimizing an innocenty party whose E-mail address has been forged. I prefer to simply include a standard nastygram appended to the end of the fully quoted spam message. (This runs the same risk, but the damage done is less, so I don't worry as much. It's a trade-off between the need to punish spammers and to not punish the innocent.) -- David W. Barts (davidb at scn.org) / REAL radios glow in the dark. "People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant." -- Helen Keller * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From help at scn.org Sun Feb 16 00:11:29 1997 From: help at scn.org (SCN help) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 00:11:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: THANKS! (fwd) Message-ID: From the SCN Help Desk (JJ) A valentine for everyone! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:31:11 -0800 (PST) From: SCN User To: help at scn.org Subject: THANKS! To the dedicated volunteers at the SCN Help Desk: Dear Folks, In the past few days, I have experienced some MINOR wierdness in my account. Not enough to complain about, just a few abnormalities. verything is o.k. now. But I just wanted to express my gratitude to all you folks who keep the SCN system going along. I live in the woods of the Pacific Northwest, and I would be truly isolated if it were not for the access to email I find through SCN. So-THANKS! to all you dedicated volunteers of SCN. You DO make a difference in more lives than you know of. Happy Valentine"s Day! jazzbo. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bf578 at scn.org Fri Feb 21 12:39:07 1997 From: bf578 at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 12:39:07 -0800 Subject: Free Internet Access? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006e0a70@scn.org> NPR story in Real Audio and a text transcript about Free Internet Access. http://www.npr.org/news/national/970116.freenet.html NPR needs to be informed of SCN and the like, it can be done with out "in your face" advertising. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From rclark at aa.net Fri Feb 21 13:39:15 1997 From: rclark at aa.net (Rod Clark) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 13:39:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free Internet Access? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006e0a70@scn.org> Message-ID: > http://www.npr.org/news/national/970116.freenet.html > > NPR needs to be informed of SCN and the like, it can be done with out "in > your face" advertising. SCN can support 15 phone lines at 14.4k bps on a realistic "free" budget in a city the size of Seattle. That's an incredibly tiny fraction of the bandwidth that people need and use here in the Seattle area. SCN can do even that much only by offering a few limited text-only services that are frankly inadequate and obsolete for most uses. Freenets occupy a valuable but limited niche on the Internet. Cutting services to such a low level is an acceptable answer for some users, but isn't realistic for most current Internet uses. There's a hardware equivalent to Freenets, too. Ask any business with a storeroom full of dusty IBM XT's and AT's whether they'd be willing to donate them to a nonprofit public service organization. Those XT's and AT's occupy the same place in the world that SCN does. On the other hand, advertiser-supported services expect to provide full services to millions of people. The budget needed to do that is far outside the scope of Freenets - SCNA's recent fundraising drive raised about one dollar fifty cents per user for the year. On that kind of Freenet budget, where's Real Audio on SCN? Where's streaming video? Can you try out CU-SeeMe teleconferencing, or anything else that's expanding the ability of people to communicate in newer and better ways over the Net? The advent of advertiser-supported services like the one in the NPR story is news that potentially affects the kind of Internet services that most people use and want. SCN hasn't come up with any news like that lately, and it isn't likely to. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From femme2 at scn.org Fri Feb 21 14:02:29 1997 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 14:02:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free Internet Access? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Feb 1997, Rod Clark wrote: > > http://www.npr.org/news/national/970116.freenet.html > > > > NPR needs to be informed of SCN and the like, it can be done with out "in > > your face" advertising. > > SCN can support 15 phone lines at 14.4k bps on a realistic > "free" budget in a city the size of Seattle. That's an > incredibly tiny fraction of the bandwidth that people need and > use here in the Seattle area. SCN can do even that much only by > offering a few limited text-only services that are frankly > inadequate and obsolete for most uses. These issues really do need to be addressed -- and there is a Planning Committee that is supposed to be addressing them. Rod, why not come to the General Meeting an hour early -- we have to find a better time to accommodate some of the people interested in PC -- but we have the room for an extra hour to meet with folks who want to have more time for input into planning future directions and implications of SCN and SCNA. And, of course, what some of the offerings of free e-mail (with advertising) and the free terminals of the Speakeasy RAIN network mean to our organization's future. Can you join us? Lorraine Pozzi femme2 at scn.org And I'll try to bring a copy of the newsletter put out by Powerful Schools (with no nods to the work of SCN, BTW) about the recycling of old, donated computers into very low-income households served by Powerful Schools (Orca, Hawthorne, and??) Or, as the Computer Charity Bank puts it, "To you it's old, to us it's gold." > > Freenets occupy a valuable but limited niche on the Internet. > Cutting services to such a low level is an acceptable answer for > some users, but isn't realistic for most current Internet uses. > > There's a hardware equivalent to Freenets, too. Ask any > business with a storeroom full of dusty IBM XT's and AT's > whether they'd be willing to donate them to a nonprofit public > service organization. Those XT's and AT's occupy the same place > in the world that SCN does. > > On the other hand, advertiser-supported services expect to > provide full services to millions of people. The budget needed > to do that is far outside the scope of Freenets - SCNA's recent > fundraising drive raised about one dollar fifty cents per user > for the year. On that kind of Freenet budget, where's Real Audio > on SCN? Where's streaming video? Can you try out CU-SeeMe > teleconferencing, or anything else that's expanding the ability > of people to communicate in newer and better ways over the Net? > > The advent of advertiser-supported services like the one in > the NPR story is news that potentially affects the kind of > Internet services that most people use and want. SCN hasn't come > up with any news like that lately, and it isn't likely to. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe services > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bf578 at scn.org Fri Feb 21 14:15:46 1997 From: bf578 at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 14:15:46 -0800 Subject: Free Internet Access? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.006bd6a8@scn.org> I agree, but SCN/freenets allow people, some with out computers, to see what the internet is about, to have an email address, to access information. SCN/Freenets can not offer everything the net has to offer, but who has the time to experience everything the net has to offer? > Freenets occupy a valuable but limited niche on the Internet. This is kinda what I was pointing towards, the niche that is filled but does not receive attention. > > There's a hardware equivalent to Freenets, too. Ask any >business with a storeroom full of dusty IBM XT's and AT's >whether they'd be willing to donate them to a nonprofit public >service organization. Those XT's and AT's occupy the same place >in the world that SCN does. I think access to the Internet can provide a lot more use than a XT or am AT, even if it is limited to text-surfing and a email. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From Jmabel at orcamed.com Fri Feb 21 15:01:14 1997 From: Jmabel at orcamed.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 15:01:14 -0800 Subject: Free Internet Access? Message-ID: I actually use SCN and Speakeasy in a somewhat coordinated way (as I believe does Lorraine). I find Speakeasy's RAIN setup and ftp a reasonably convenient way to maintain my SCN web site civic/crisis. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From dltooley at speakeasy.org Sat Feb 22 09:59:01 1997 From: dltooley at speakeasy.org (Doug Tooley) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 09:59:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free Internet Access? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I too, like Lorraine and Joe, use SCN and the Speakeasy in a coordinated fashion. The value of a text only service shouldn't be undervalued. E-mail is currently the only internet based service that as at any sort of a mature state and really the demand for graphical searches doesn't exceed that of the demand that has historically been filled by a trip to the local library - a location that by emerging standard **has free graphical access**. As for entertainment via the web I guess you are just going to have to pay for that if you want it. Ad supported internet is a real possibility. But so is the possibility of government supported dial-in. The only likely opposition we'd face in a lobbying campaign with the City of Seattle for additional dial in lines is from existing ISP's - and if we stay text only via dial in those ISP's might well even help us with some local and/or worldwide low-priority bandwidth - not to advance traditional advertising but rather as more of a NPR type PR public service. The exact operational model of the internet is far from determined and I applaud the efforts of Lorraine and her committee to take a systematic view of these alternatives. At this time though it seems we are truly being reactionary rather than pro-active. My personal view is that we should focus on servicing our member organizations - perhaps even providing SLIP/PPP connections to IP's, but more importantly to educate and involve grass roots non-profits in the type of communication benefits now available through e-mail and other means. Phone lines are important - but we're going to get a lot bigger payoff encouraging the city to pay for text only access than by spending our meager financial resources on such expensive items. We can do one thing very well now in terms of opening up internet access - we can help grass-roots organizations build a professional presence on the net consistent with our founding policies. Let's at least do that! -Douglas Tooley * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From rclark at aa.net Sat Feb 22 11:08:18 1997 From: rclark at aa.net (Rod Clark) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 11:08:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free Internet Access? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > My personal view is that we should focus on servicing our member > organizations - perhaps even providing SLIP/PPP connections to IP's, but > more importantly to educate and involve grass roots non-profits in the > type of communication benefits now available through e-mail and other > means. Phone lines are important - but we're going to get a lot bigger > payoff encouraging the city to pay for text only access than by spending > our meager financial resources on such expensive items. > > We can do one thing very well now in terms of opening up internet access - > we can help grass-roots organizations build a professional presence on the > net consistent with our founding policies. Doug, SCNA's members aren't organizations. The members are local residents who have joined SCN as individuals. That's SCN's consituency, not the organizations you mentioned. SCN's basic purpose isn't to subsidise free online brochures for established organizations, many of whom can afford to pay for printing, Web space and other such costs. SCN's purpose is to provide access to the Internet for people who otherwise can't afford it and who would otherwise have no access. To give away SCNA members' and SCN users' individual donations to finance bigger and better "professional presences" for such organizations is sending the members' money in the wrong direction. We (including yours truly) support our Web space "customers" with a great deal of unpaid volunteer time. But given the choice, I'd far rather spend that same amount of time supporting Web pages on which SCN's individual users could express themselves. If anything, SCN should consider asking some of the bigger organizations who now use SCN as a Web space provider for voluntary donations, and use that money to support better dialup services for those who can't afford a commercial provider. As far as depending on the City for essential support, I wouldn't trust the City's politicians to consistently support SCN's principles. Do you? Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From dltooley at speakeasy.org Sat Feb 22 12:47:19 1997 From: dltooley at speakeasy.org (Doug Tooley) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:47:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Response to Rod Clark; Re: Free Internet Access? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rod, et al: You raise some good points here Rod - but at least on one front you are missing something essential - the internet is about communication. Your continuing condescending tone, completely disrespectful of any meritful content of the poster is contradictory to good communication, and is a root cause of flaming, whatever its particular variety. Now I may well not necessarily the most popular messenger around here - but my contributions to this organization have been consistently strong and team oriented. Hopefully some of the membership, and board, recognize the value of **free speech** as so cited in the organization's founding principles. Frankly, if those same principles can't be applied within the organization in a responsible and adult manner, fare thee well. My specific responses follow: > SCNA's members aren't organizations. The members are local > residents who have joined SCN as individuals. That's SCN's > consituency, not the organizations you mentioned. > SCN-A is not SCN. The ideas I posit as to priorities are a proposal, a proposal that would, in my opinion, require further action by the membership and board. We do have a responsibility to individual members - but if we **can't** provide adequate dial-up service than perhaps the best way we can insure good service is to insure that the information available is of high quality, like that often provided by professional and grass-roots non-profit organizations, while continuing to insure the provision of access through the Seattle Library. > SCN's basic purpose isn't to subsidise free online brochures > for established organizations, many of whom can afford to pay > for printing, Web space and other such costs. SCN's purpose is > to provide access to the Internet for people who otherwise can't > afford it and who would otherwise have no access. > This is an interpretation of our policy statement, and a narrow one. If that is the case than we need to make it an organizational goal to raise the necessary funds to provide adequate dial-up access for 10,000 users. At a modem ration of 10:1 that's 1,000 phone lines, perhaps more than we need, but lower than the ratio guaranteed by some current private providers. I gather that the best phone rate available now is $30/month from ELI - let me do the math for you that's $30,000 a month. I'm sure the board would love to hear your ideas and have your contributions towards that little bit of reality! > To give away SCNA members' and SCN users' individual > donations to finance bigger and better "professional presences" > for such organizations is sending the members' money in the > wrong direction. We (including yours truly) support our Web > space "customers" with a great deal of unpaid volunteer time. > But given the choice, I'd far rather spend that same amount of > time supporting Web pages on which SCN's individual users could > express themselves. > My apologies for the unspecific nature of my language - though there is substantial gray area my use of the term 'grass-roots' was to differentiate 'proffessional' organizations from low budget and/or unstaffed organizations. To some extent your concerns will be addressed through self selection, a big organization will choose to pay. Social service organizations are probably the most 'professional' organizations that will choose to use us. I would hope that you would view a 'donation' to both individual social service clients as well as their agencies as more productive than merely focusing on one or the other. > If anything, SCN should consider asking some of the bigger > organizations who now use SCN as a Web space provider for > voluntary donations, and use that money to support better dialup > services for those who can't afford a commercial provider. > 10-4 > As far as depending on the City for essential support, I > wouldn't trust the City's politicians to consistently support > SCN's principles. Do you? > No more or no less than I trust any organization to work towards them. -Douglas Tooley * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From rclark at aa.net Sat Feb 22 14:59:40 1997 From: rclark at aa.net (Rod Clark) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 14:59:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Response to Rod Clark; Re: Free Internet Access? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > ... while continuing to insure the provision of access through > the Seattle Library. Doug, From what I remember from a discussion of this at a General Meeting last year, the Library now provides fewer lines to SCN than it did before, and it cut back on those services because SCN was a lower priority than providing access to its own catalog. KCLS and PAN probably have a somewhat similar view. > This is an interpretation of our policy statement, and a narrow one. If > that is the case than we need to make it an organizational goal to raise > the necessary funds to provide adequate dial-up access for 10,000 users. Many users do have other access available. It would be interesting to know, though, just how many don't have. It might well be a lot less than 10,000. Was this information part of one of the recent SCN surveys, by any chance? > At a modem ration of 10:1 that's 1,000 phone lines, perhaps more than we > need, but lower than the ratio guaranteed by some current private > providers. I gather that the best phone rate available now is $30/month > from ELI - let me do the math for you that's $30,000 a month. > > I'm sure the board would love to hear your ideas and have your > contributions towards that little bit of reality! Well, let's see. Would it be possible to ask each member of the ISP Alliance to consider donating the cost of a phone line to SCN? That would help considerably, if it's not too much to ask as part of the Alliance's activities in connection with SCN. Other non-profit organizations offer a variety of fundraising items to their members, to raise annual operrating costs. Maybe the T-shirt could be joined by a few other goodies (such as maybe a car window sticker with the Giant Mercury stamp on it?) People like SCN, and might enjoy having the chance to buy an SCN mug, or whatever, in much the same way that KUOW supporters and others do, during their annual fundraisers. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From nancyk at scn.org Sat Feb 22 20:26:02 1997 From: nancyk at scn.org (NancyK) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 20:26:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Response to Rod Clark; Re: Free Internet Access? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Doug, Rod, There are many folks receiving multiple copies of your two person conversation. Since basically the Services mailing list is duplicated on the SCN mailing list, please either continue this discussion in private or contain it solely on the SCN mailing list. Thanks, Nancy * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From ljbeedle at scn.org Sun Feb 23 05:14:48 1997 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 05:14:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Response to Rod Clark; Re: Free Internet Access? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually I'm finding most of it interesting. Just not sure about jumping into the fray. Lois When you're retired you don't get weekends off On Sat, 22 Feb 1997, NancyK wrote: > Hi Doug, Rod, > > There are many folks receiving multiple copies of your two person > conversation. Since basically the Services mailing list is duplicated on > the SCN mailing list, please either continue this discussion in private or > contain it solely on the SCN mailing list. > > Thanks, > Nancy > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From Jmabel at orcamed.com Mon Feb 24 08:59:54 1997 From: Jmabel at orcamed.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 08:59:54 -0800 Subject: Response to Rod Clark; Re: Free Internet Access? Message-ID: I'm finding the discussion about what SCN might do very interesting. I'm finding the mutual exchange of condesencion and personal attacks tedious. Guys, any chance you could each try at this point to send one e-mail each summarizing what you feel are the major points you've raised in this and laying off of the fact that you obviously don't like each other very much? >---------- >From: Lois Beedle[SMTP:ljbeedle at scn.org] >Sent: Sunday, February 23, 1997 5:14 AM >To: NancyK >Cc: Doug Tooley; Rod Clark; scn at scn.org >Subject: Re: Response to Rod Clark; Re: Free Internet Access? > >Actually I'm finding most of it interesting. Just not sure about >jumping >into the fray. >Lois > >When you're retired you don't get weekends off > >On Sat, 22 Feb 1997, NancyK wrote: > >> Hi Doug, Rod, >> >> There are many folks receiving multiple copies of your two person >> conversation. Since basically the Services mailing list is duplicated on >> the SCN mailing list, please either continue this discussion in private or >> contain it solely on the SCN mailing list. >> >> Thanks, >> Nancy >> >> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * >> . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: >> majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: >> unsubscribe scn >> END >> >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * >* >. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: >majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: >unsubscribe scn >END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From dltooley at speakeasy.org Mon Feb 24 16:12:51 1997 From: dltooley at speakeasy.org (Doug Tooley) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:12:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Response to Rod Clark; Re: Free Internet Access? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > From what I remember from a discussion of this at a General > Meeting last year, the Library now provides fewer lines to SCN > than it did before, and it cut back on those services because > SCN was a lower priority than providing access to its own > catalog. KCLS and PAN probably have a somewhat similar view. > > > This is an interpretation of our policy statement, and a narrow one. If > > that is the case than we need to make it an organizational goal to raise > > the necessary funds to provide adequate dial-up access for 10,000 users. > > Many users do have other access available. It would be > interesting to know, though, just how many don't have. It might > well be a lot less than 10,000. Was this information part of one > of the recent SCN surveys, by any chance? > Good question - it would certainly be nice to see the results posted here, as well as meeting minutes, etc. Regarding the 10,000 users - I am actually quite sure you are correct in stating that only a percentage have dia-up. However there are other factors to consider as well. If we offer free, high quality text only service we are going to increase our membership and some of those 10,000 who have other access (through work or through a paid service) will choose to switch. In addition there are other costs besides just phone lines - modems and routers that need to be amortized, as well as an increase in upstream bandwidth demand that might very well not be acceptable to our current providers. > Well, let's see. Would it be possible to ask each member of > the ISP Alliance to consider donating the cost of a phone line > to SCN? That would help considerably, if it's not too much to > ask as part of the Alliance's activities in connection with SCN. > The alliance was, and is, an ad-hoc organization. The formal association is now called the WAIP - and we should definitely place this group and its members on our list. Phone line sponsorship might well be profitable to an ISP, if its not though this would not necessarily be their best sort of charitable donation. Donating bandwidth is probably the most 'efficient' donation to make, again absent a profitable phone line sponsorship situation. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jj at scn.org Mon Feb 24 23:33:21 1997 From: jj at scn.org (John Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 23:33:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: fyi re access. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some background for you guys: connections from SPL were limited after they noticed that typically half of their 40 lines were serving only to connect to SCN. There are no such limits on connections from KCLS, PAN, or (as far as I know) any of the other libraries (other than the number of lines they have available). These additional means of access, as well as the number of non-active users, need to be considered in any ratios of access lines per users. Also, about a quarter of our connections are from other (non-free) sites. Don't know if that is a valid indication of how many of our users have other accounts. === JJ ================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From nancyk at scn.org Mon Feb 24 23:39:26 1997 From: nancyk at scn.org (NancyK) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 23:39:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Update on FCC/Access charges Message-ID: ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: LISTSERV at internic.net (Automatic digest processor) To: NET-HAPPENINGS at lists.internic.net (Recipients of NET-HAPPENINGS digests) Subject: NET-HAPPENINGS Digest - 23 Feb 1997 - Special issue Date: Sun, 23 Feb %< %< %< %< %< %< %< %< %< %< %< %< %< ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 00:48:53 -0600 From: Gleason Sackman Subject: GOVT> FCC FAQ on Access Charge Reform (Internet Modem Tax) From: Robert Cannon To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: FCC FAQ on Access Charge Reform (Internet Modem Tax) Date: Thursday, February 20, 1997 11:01 AM The FCC has posted a FAQ entitled "Fact Sheet on the FCC, Internet Service Providers and Access Charges." It can be found at http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Common_Carrier/Factsheets/ispfact.html By the Way, Comm Daily reports that the FCC received 302,000 e-mails in response to the Access Charge Reform NPRM. Remember: Comments in response to the Notice of Inquiry are due March 24 (http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html). There will be a FCBA CLE seminar on the subject March 6 in Washington DC. For information, call Robert Cannon at 202-418-1428. A description of the seminar can be found on http://www.cais.net/cannon/ Robert Cannon ------------------------------ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From rclark at aa.net Tue Feb 25 00:57:59 1997 From: rclark at aa.net (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 00:57:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: fyi re access. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > There are no such limits on connections from KCLS, PAN, > or (as far as I know) any of the other libraries (other than the number > of lines they have available). John, At last month's general meeting, Aki (or someone) mentioned that one of these, and I seem to remember that it was PAN, was considering restricting or dropping SCN access through its dialup lines. Did I hear that right, and if so do you know anything more about it? Rod * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From gtruzzi at scn.org Wed Feb 26 07:47:20 1997 From: gtruzzi at scn.org (Gianni Truzzi) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 07:47:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Response to Rod Clark; Blah, blah, blah Message-ID: <199702261547.HAA14400@scn.org> > >Good question - it would certainly be nice to see the results posted here, >as well as meeting minutes, etc. > As far as the minutes, I'm working on it. FYI, look at the web page: http://www.scn.org/volunteers You will find a new link for "SCN Committees" which connects to some terrific menus developed by HW/SW. Some of the committees meetings are being maintained, at least. -- Gianni Truzzi gtruzzi at scn.org gtruzzi at compuserve.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From dltooley at speakeasy.org Fri Feb 28 08:59:24 1997 From: dltooley at speakeasy.org (Doug Tooley) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:59:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Be afraid, be very afraid. (fwd) Message-ID: Have you heard? Key Bank is going to sell the Key Arena to McDonalds. ***************** McDonalds is going to call it the 'Macarena'! ********************** (more) o o o o o o> o .|. \|. \|/ // X \ | <| <|> /\ >\ /< >\ /< >\ /< >\ /< Mr. Asciihead learns the Macarena. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END