From douglas Sat Aug 1 14:45:02 1998 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: some free [old] computers Message-ID: <199808012145.OAA23011@scn.org> I *think* (hope) that these are still available. They're very old but somebody might want them? Please reply to Venetia, venetia at hanami.oz.net, if you're interested. Thanks -- -- Doug > To: Douglas at scn.org > Subject: free computers > > Doug, the following computers are available to whomever can or will come > and get them. They are all loaded with Word, Excel; many Office > software packages are also available. In addition to Word and Excel, we > have PowerPoint, Claris, Symantec, Retrospect, various screen savers, > etc...all Mac software free for the taking! We'll even throw in a Mac > Carrying Case for one lucky person! > > Macintosh Plus (2) > Macintosh SE (3) > Macintosh SE30 > Leading Edge with Monitor (286/50mhz) > Macintosh SE Super Drive > IBM Jr PC, no monitor > > Thanks for your help in finding homes for them. We are ready to throw > them in the dumpster! Venetia > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From douglas Sat Aug 1 15:15:36 1998 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Community Networks WORKSHOP Message-ID: <199808012215.PAA28721@scn.org> Thought some of you might be interested in this workshop which we will be convening in conjunction with PDC/CSCW this year. It looks like we'll have people from all over the world. Hope some of you can make it! Also feel free to distribute it to anybody whom you think might be interested. Thanks! -- Doug ------------------------------------------------------ Please distribute to other interested people and lists -- THANK YOU! ------------------------------------------------------ Designing Across Borders: The Community Design of Community Networks == PDC '98(*) and CSCW 98(**) Workshop == http://www.scn.org/ip/commnet/cscw-pdc-workshop.html November 14, 1998 The Westin Hotel Seattle, WA USA The purpose of the workshop is to explore the current state and possible futures of networked (geographic) community communication and information systems ("community networks"). We are especially interested in how participatory design techniques can be integrated into design approaches and systems that are democratic and public. We believe that input from citizens as "lay designers" will provide valuable insight into the development of effective systems in civic -- and other -- realms. Finally, since these communication systems are becoming global in nature, we feel that issues about localism and globalism are extremely appropriate in the context of CSCW and geographically-based community systems. We will examine four main community design themes: (1) Looking at Innovative Regional Systems; (2) Theorizing About New Systems; (3) Recommendations and Future Directions; and (4) Critical Issues (including how local community networks can work together forming a network of networks). This workshop will be convened by Paolo Barbesino (UK), Peter Van den Bessalaer (The Netherlands), Fiorella de Cindio (Italy), Peter Mambrey (Germany), Douglas Schuler (USA), Artur Serra (Spain), and Erik Stolterman (Sweden). We are all interested in research on public computing systems and how to make them successful. In fact one of the aims of this workshop is to help further the development of a research network on these themes. The workshop is a full-day event that will provide participants with an opportunity to engage in focussed discussions on the community design of community networks with a small group of like-minded researchers and practitioners. Participation is limited to about 25 people. Participants will be selected on the basis of short (3-4 page) position papers, representing views and experience relevant to the workshop topic as well as desired outcome from the workshop. Position papers should be sent to Doug Schuler at the address listed below and should arrive no later than September 1, 1998. There is an additional fee of $50 for workshop participation beyond the conference (either PDC '98 or CSCW 98) fees, to cover the costs of materials and refreshments. For more information, email douglas at scn.org or see the workshop web page at http://www.scn.org/ip/commnet/cscw-pdc-workshop.html. Submissions should be sent to: Doug Schuler 2202 N. 41st Seattle WA 98103 USA (*) The Participatory Design Conference (PDC '98) is sponsored by Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility. Conference web site: http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/pdc98 (**) The Computer Supported Cooperative Work Conference (CSCW '98) is sponsored by the Association for Computing Machinery (ACM). Conference web site: http://www.acm.org/sigchi/cscw98/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From douglas Sat Aug 1 15:17:38 1998 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Support for Community Work TUTORIAL Message-ID: <199808012217.PAA29404@scn.org> This is an announcement for a Computer Support for Community Work TUTORIAL. It is quite different than the workshop annnouncement I just sent out. This is associated with the CSCW conference and it is a full-day tutorial that I will be convening. The workshop is more open-ended. One of the my objectives with this tutorial is to get more reseachers thinking about *public* applications and get more practitioners think about new applications (sometimes inspired by research results). At any rate I am very interested in researcher/practitioner collaboration. Please feel free to distribute this to anybody who might be interested. I'm hoping to attract researchers, software developers, library people, government workers, social activists.... Thanks!!! -- Doug ------------------------------------------------------ Please distribute to other interested people and lists -- THANK YOU! ------------------------------------------------------ Computer Support for Community Work Designing and Building Systems for the "Real World" Doug Schuler douglas at scn.org A CSCW 98 Tutorial http://www.scn.org/ip/commnet/cscw-tutorial-1998.html November 14, 1998 9:00 AM - 5:30 PM The Westin Hotel Seattle, WA USA Social entrepreneurs, librarians, NGOs, small businesses, activists, and government institutions all over the world are developing new electronic tools for community work. What works? What doesn't? What next? This tutorial is designed to introduce CSCW researchers and implementers to the field of public CSCW applications, services, and institutions (or, what I call "Computer Supported Community Work"). It is the goal of this tutorial to present the major challenges and opportunities involved in this endeavor and to engage all the participants in an active dialogue as to the future of these new systems. Each participant should, after attending this tutorial, have a much clearer idea what systems might be developed and what they themselves can do to make that happen. Tutorial Topics + What are public CSCW applications and why does society need them? + New services, applications, and institutions + Policy and Education + Technological Infrastructure + Organizational Issues + Challenges and Strategic Issues + Evaluation and Research Issues + Action Plans You do not need to be registered for the CSCW 98 conference to attend the tutorial. There is an additional charge for the tutorial. See the Association for Computing Machinery (ACM) web site (www.acm.org/sigchi/cscw98/) for more information including how to register for the tutorial. Thanks for your interest! -- Doug Schuler Please feel free to contact me (douglas at scn.org) for more information or to send me any comments. (*) The 1998 Conference on Computer Supported for Cooperative Work (CSCW 98) is sponsored by the Association for Computing Machinery (ACM). * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Sun Aug 2 11:09:51 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 10:09:51 -0800 Subject: The good guys Message-ID: <199808021718.KAA16643@scn.org> A band of rebels think that software's secrets should be as free as the air we breathe. Don't sell Microsoft short - but don't underestimate the rebels, either. Josh McHugh Forbes 8/10/98 IBM'S intellectual property lawyers had never drafted a deal quite like this one. In April software engineer Yen-Ping Shan was describing a partnership IBM was proposing with something called the Apache Group. IBM, all $100 billion worth of it, was courting this loose confederation of 20 programmers. "Loose" is an understatement. The programmers, scattered from Palo Alto to Munich, were not incorporated and had no formal business arrangements. IBM wanted to use the Apache Group's software as the cornerstone of WebSphere, an Internet commerce package IBM planned to release in June. This was a weird partnership deal because no money was involved. "Even if you want to pay, there's no one to pay," Shan explained. "They don't exist, legally." Right. A no-money licensing agreement with an entity that had no legal existence. "So let me get this straight," one IBM lawyer said. "We're doing a deal with . . . a Web site?" Yes, and the Web site was setting the terms of the deal: It must be non-exclusive. The software's source code-the very intellectual property that IBM's lawyers are normally paid to keep proprietary-was, and would remain, freely available to anyone with an Internet connection. Like it or not, those were the terms IBM had to work with. The 20 programmers were reluctant to throw in with IBM. "What can we show you to prove to you we're serious?" Shan asked them at one point. Finally, the blue-chip giant scraped together a handful of the only currency that interested Apache's developers: a technical advance for the software-in programmer parlance, a hack. IBM programmers had figured out how to make Apache's software run faster on Microsoft's NT operating system. They offered to show their hack to the Apache gang and agreed to share future hacks as well. Done deal. The Apache folk would throw in with IBM in June. This raises a couple of questions: 1. Why was IBM so eager to get the software? 2. What sort of software was it? The answers: 1. It was a technical marvel that commands more than 50% of the booming market for Web server software; at the same time, IBM scored huge coolness points with programmers writing software for the Internet. 2. This is liberated software. Not just (as in many cases) free of charge, but-much more important-free for any programmer to modify, improve and share with other programmers. Its code was out there for anyone and everyone to see- and copy. Known as "open-source software," "freeware" or "free software," it may not put Bill Gates and Larry Ellison in Chapter 11, but it could limit their future profitability. At the very least, it demonstrates a neat alternative way to produce better software. Commercial software is typically delivered in binary form-that is, in 1s and 0s that make sense to a microprocessor but are unreadable even by advanced programmers. Usually you have to pay for it; sometimes (with browsers, for example) you get it for free. But either way you just get the 1s and 0s. The truly liberated stuff comes complete with its source code, the commands written by the author of the program. This gives others an intimate view of what the developer was doing with the code and how. It allows those who read the code to make repairs, to customize the program and to imitate the programming tricks and algorithms when they write unrelated software. Why would programmers give away source code, a potential gold mine? It's a way to get committed users to chip in their own improvements, creating a communitarian program much better than any one author or firm could produce solo. But there's an even more important reason for this seeming largesse: Liberated software has become an intellectual Olympics, where some of the world's top engineering minds compete-not for venture capital, but for impressing their peers. Netscape dipped a toe into the open-source stream when it released the source code for its Internet browser in March. Within hours a team of Australian programmers had attached a cryptographic add-on to enable secure Internet transactions. Other improvements to the original poured in from all around the world over the next two weeks. In less than a month, a new version of the browser was posted on the project's Web site, ready for downloading. For their efforts, the Australians were paid handsomely-but not with money. The programmers, calling themselves the Mozilla Crypto Group, got paid in respect from the rest of the programming community and in the satisfaction of turning out an elegant and useful bit of software. Plus it was a gas. The worldwide notoriety of their hack won't hurt the fortunes of their Brisbane consulting company, Cryptsoft. Had Netscape put together a team and thrown money at the project, it is doubtful it could have produced equal results in so little time. Meet Linus Torvalds. The soft-spoken, sandy-haired Finn was a 21-year-old in his second year at Helsinki University in 1991, tinkering on a PC with an experimental version of the UNIX operating system. He mentioned the program to an Internet newsgroup. A member of the newsgroup offered him space to post his program on a university server. A few people downloaded the program and set to work on it, then sent the changes back to Torvalds. Someone dubbed it Linux ("Linn-uks"). Within a year Torvalds' software had taken on a life of its own. "I had 5 to 10 people using it. Then that number went to between 100 and 200," says Torvalds. "I didn't know the people anymore." Seven years later an estimated 7 million people around the world are using computers and networks run by Torvalds' creation. It is an astonishingly versatile piece of programming. Engineers have tweaked Linux to run 3Com's handheld PalmPilot computer. Red Hat Software's version of Linux won the 1996 award for best desktop computer operating system from trade magazine InfoWorld. In April researchers at Los Alamos National Laboratory used Linux to run 68 PCs as a single parallel processing machine to simulate atomic shock waves. The do-it-yourself supercomputer cost only $152,000, including labor (connecting the 68 PCs with cables)-about one-tenth the price of a comparable commercial machine. It reached a peak speed of 19 billion calculations per second, making it the 315th most powerful supercomputer in the world. Three months later it still hasn't had to be rebooted. Torvalds, at 28, is perhaps the most popular programmer on the planet-and a bona fide celebrity on the Internet. A World Wide Web search engine finds 7,192 matches for Sun Microsystems' chief executive, Scott McNealy, 8,580 for Oracle's Larry Ellison, 16,604 for actor Tom Cruise-and 20,419 for Linus Torvalds. One Web site, "Linus Torvalds Tribute," includes links to other sites titled "Wacky stuff about Linus," "Linus' Usenet postings" and "Linus to Move to U.S. in 1997." With thousands of programmers working on Linux, the rate of incoming improvements and new features for the program has accelerated. For all their resources, an IBM or a Microsoft couldn't have moved faster. Whereas new versions of typical commercial software products are issued once a year-or once every three years, in the case of Microsoft's Windows operating system-new open-source programs like Linux and Apache are posted monthly, if not more frequently. As the Internet grows larger and more diverse in its applications, software like Torvalds' that adapts to constant change and doesn't break down will move from being handy to being mandatory. For all his cyber-celebrity and the success of Linux, Torvalds isn't building a $40 million house or buying a fighter plane. Now living in Santa Clara, Calif. and working for a chip design company, he drives a green Pontiac that's a dead ringer for your standard rental car. His favorite dining spot is a low-priced Thai restaurant. Torvalds, who lists Albert Einstein and namesake Linus Pauling as his heroes, explains what motivates him: "There's a strong artistic element." These artists call themselves "hackers," but they're a far cry from the bragging 14-year-olds (also known as "crackers") who grab headlines trying to break into the Pentagon's computers. In this community, "hacker" is a term of respect. In the late 1950s MIT students who loved to tinker with the university's gigantic early computers started calling themselves hackers. Richard M. Stallman claims direct descent from them. He started working at MIT's Artificial Intelligence Laboratory as an 18-year-old Harvard student in 1971. Thinking back on those days, Stallman says: "It was a bit like the Garden of Eden." His eyes, intense and youthful as a college freshman's, shine out from behind a thicket of tousled hair and a bushy black beard. "It hadn't occurred to us not to cooperate," he recalls. The fall from grace, or what Stallman calls "pollution," began in 1981, when a company called Symbolics hired away most of the AI lab members. They stopped turning out freeware and produced instead trade secrets, hoarded and hidden. A mile and a half west of Stallman's beloved lab, another Harvard student named Bill Gates and his friend Paul Allen had used Harvard's computers to write an operating system for the Altair 8800 six years earlier. This creaky machine had a row of red lights as a display and 256 bytes of memory, built around the new Intel 8080 processor and assembled by electronics buffs. Someone snared a copy of Gates' program, made copies and gave it to fellow hobbyists, who made and handed out their own copies. In the prevailing atmosphere this wasn't thought of as stealing-but Gates saw it differently and said so in "An Open Letter to Hobbyists," which ran in several of the computer hobby journals of the day. "Most of you steal your software," Gates wrote. "One thing you do is prevent good software from being written. Who can afford to do professional work for nothing?" Gates eventually prevailed in the realm of personal computers. Stallman, however, didn't give up without a battle. He retaliated by sabotaging his former colleagues' sophisticated commercial programs for powerful computers, singlehandedly hacking up his own versions and giving them away. "They accused me of costing them millions of dollars," he says. "I hope it's true." In 1984 Stallman started work on GNU, his liberated version of the widely used UNIX operating system. Several pieces of GNU software are vital to the operation of Linux. The year after he started GNU Stallman founded the Free Software Foundation to promote free software projects. Let's face it: Communitarian ideas like Stallman's are unlikely to sweep the capitalist world. Nevertheless, the rise of the Internet could be nudging the software industry at least partly in this direction. In fact, two of the most fundamental pieces of the Internet are open-source software. BIND is the software that allows us to type site names like www.yahoo.com instead of the machine numbers (204.71.177.97) our browsers really need. BIND is freeware developed originally at Berkeley in the early 1980s. Sendmail, which routes about 80% of the E-mail that courses over the Internet, is also open-source software, initially written by Eric Allman in 1981 and now maintained by sendmail.org, an on-line programmer community that numbers in the thousands. But even idealists have to eat, don't they? Yes, replies Stallman, but they don't have to drive Ferraris. "If you want people to take out the garbage, you have to pay them," says Stallman, who literally lived in his office, sleeping in a bed a few feet from his collection of computers, until MIT made him take a room off campus. "You don't have to do that to get people to program. The excitement of advancing the technology is what drives hackers." Agreeing, Linus Torvalds points out that programmers are able to make a handsome living in our society without royalties and the receipts from IPOs. "If you're good, it's easy to get paid," he says. "Good programmers are rare enough that people pay them well. A big part of personal satisfaction is having your work recognized by your peers. That's fundamental in any human psyche." Eric Raymond, editor of The New Hacker's Dictionary (MIT Press, third edition, 1996), is a Linux programmer whose essay "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" spurred Netscape to liberate its source code. Somewhat romantically, Raymond compares hacker culture to the culture of the Native American tribes of the Pacific Northwest described by anthropologist Marvin Harris in Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches (Random House, 1974). In these tribes, the Kwakiutl and others, the central social event was the potlatch, where tribal chiefs would gain status-and recruit new tribe members-by lavishing gifts and feasts on neighboring tribes. The totem poles these tribes are known for served as elaborately crafted advertisements for each tribe's prosperity-and hence the chief's ability to "cause great works to be done." Before you scoff, remember that for the superrich, who have far more money than they ever could spend, further accumulation is a striving for status rather than a pursuit of additional luxury. Freeware folk are simply people who chose to accumulate prestige rather than money. Do you want to create a cool Web business? Then you will probably avail yourself of Perl, a language that can be used to scan databases and documents for certain words or numbers, then display the results in tabular form. For this contribution to computing you can thank Larry Wall, a 43-year-old former linguist who created the language while working on a government-sponsored project at Burroughs. Nobody collects a royalty on Perl. Wall isn't starving-500,000 copies of his Perl manuals have sold. But he is unlikely to reach The Forbes Four Hundred. "To have launched something that becomes bigger than yourself . . . it's overwhelming," says Wall. Erik Troan, Red Hat Software's chief developer, pithily sums it all up: "For engineers, it's all about the cool hack." Troan's well-paid job at the Linux reseller lets him work on his passion all day long. Although Red Hat is very much a for-profit company, it keeps the faith by making the Linux source code-and any source code its programmers add-available with the software. If some of Red Hat's code is sloppy, the users can make it better-and, ideally, share the fix with the world. Sendmail creator Eric Allman started Sendmail, Inc. last November. Allman seems to have a more corporate-looking haircut than many of his shaggy programmer peers-until you glimpse the narrow 14-inch braid tucked under the back of his button-down collar. Allman is confident that as long as the code stays open and the information keeps flowing between the company and the community, he and Sendmail, Inc. can avoid the "sellout" tag. He makes a living for his company by selling easy-to-use versions of the program, along with support and service contracts, to corporations who would rather use the phone than hack their own fixes. The company has closed its second round of venture financing, raising $6 million. It has an asset that cannot be quantified for the balance sheet: free helpers. More than 5,000 people downloaded a prototype of Sendmail to test the software, try to break it, and fiddle with the source code. Not many software companies can mobilize 5,000 testers. Apache, the group that IBM coveted, is an example of the informality that rules in the freeware world. Brian Behlendorf, 25, helped to start it all. Back in 1991 he was organizing all-night techno dance parties known as "raves." "The first day 50 people signed up. I knew there was something there." At one rave on Bonny Doon beach near Santa Cruz, Calif. 3,000 people showed up. The only promotion was via E-mail and word of mouth. After finding a job building Wired magazine's Web site through a rave acquaintance, Behlendorf decided the Web server software he was using needed improvement. He made a few of his own, then posted the new version, with source code, on the Internet. Code contributions poured in and thus was born Apache, which today serves up more than 50% of the Internet's Web sites, including those of Internet top dog Yahoo!. Apache knocked Netscape's closed-source Web server out of the running for the cornerstone of IBM's Web commerce package. Freeware is still on the fringe of the software industry, but it's a pretty substantial fringe. As more businesses of every sort come to depend on the Web, access to source code will become more important. Why? It can mean the world to a programmer or the person running your company's Web site. "Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?" demands Robert Young, Red Hat Software's chief executive. Intel Corp. is certainly not ignoring the freeware community. On this Bastille Day Intel cosponsored a Linux "tech talk" at the Santa Clara convention center, attended by roughly 1,000 programmers and systems administrators. The hook: Someone had hacked Linux to simultaneously harness four of Intel's Xeon processors, introduced to the world about two weeks earlier. Intel engineer Sunil Saxena sat elbow-to-elbow on a panel with Linus Torvalds and was hounded by audience members about releasing early specifications on Intel's upcoming chip, Merced, to the Linux community. Torvalds, smiling broadly, came to the frazzled Intel man's aid. "Don't worry," he said, quieting the hooting crowd. "When Merced comes out, we'll get it running in a couple of weeks. It's a done deal." Intel has good reason to court the freeware crowd: The more popular non-Microsoft operating systems become, the less Microsoft can push Intel around. In addition to IBM and Netscape, most of the big software companies are taking a keen interest in open-source software. Corel has recoded its applications and office software suite to run on Linux and is selling a computer that uses Linux as its operating system. Computer Associates International has written a version of its database software for Linux, and Oracle Corp. is rejiggering its products to do the same. No, Bill Gates' fortune is not at risk, but as Microsoft comes to rely increasingly on selling software for corporate networks and the Internet, it will have to reckon with the spreading manifestations of liberated software. In January Microsoft shelled out $400 million for Hotmail, a Web-based free E-mail service, bringing aboard 9.5 million accounts-all running on Apache. Maybe in the end this even benefits Microsoft. Bill Gates' juggernaut looks a lot less like a real monopoly in a world where plenty of good software is free. Justice Department, please note. copyright 1998 Forbes Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From douglas Mon Aug 3 16:43:14 1998 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BAngemann challlenge Message-ID: <199808032343.QAA08780@scn.org> >From Amy Borgstrom, president of the AFCN. -- Doug > Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 06:11:05 -0400 > From: Amy Borgstrom > Subject: FW: The Global Bangemann Challenge > To: COMMUNET at list.uvm.edu > > Here's an opportunity to get some great PR for community networking > initiatives...I met Adam Homstrum in Barcelona and he was really interested > in attracting more grassroots community-based efforts to this international > award program. --------------------------------------------------- > Community Networks are invited to join the Global Bangemann Challenge > > The Global Bangemann Challenge is a nonprofit awards program initiated > by the City of Stockholm and supported by the European Commission. The > purpose of the Challenge is to identify and expose useful and functional > information technology projects from all over the world, that help > people reach new levels of prosperity, health and democracy, such as for > example community networks. > > The Challenge spans for two years and the goal is to attract projects > from cities and regions around the world. In June 1999 there will be an > Awards Ceremony in Stockholm and the winners and finalists will receive > their trophies and of course great media attention. > > Read more about the Challenge on our website; > http://www.challenge.stockholm.se, where you can also study the projects > already submitted from all over the world. As of the beginning of August > 1998, 330 projects from all over the world have joined the Challenge and > it is expected that there will be some 500 participating projects by the > closing date on December 31:st. A great deal of these are inititives > for community networking; geographic such as RAVAL-net in Barcelona as > well as sectoral such as the Swedish SenoirNet. We are now inviting more > initiatives and projects to join and share their knowledge and > experience. > Participation is of course free. > For further information visit the website where you will find the online > registration form or contact Adam Holmstrom at the Global Bangemann > Challenge office in Stockholm: > adam.holmstrom at challenge.stockholm.se > Tel: +46.8.508 29 124 > > Amy Borgstrom > Appalachian Center for Economic Networks > 94 Columbus Road > Athens, Ohio 45701 > (740) 592-3854 voice > (740) 593-5451 fax > amyb at seorf.ohiou.edu > http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx001 > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Fri Aug 7 00:45:23 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 23:45:23 -0800 Subject: IRS Message-ID: <199808070653.XAA05703@scn.org> Oregon Case Could Signal Shift on Nonprofit ISPs Rebecca Fairley Raney NY Times 8/7/98 At a time when federal officials are voicing concerns about disparity in access to the Internet, an Oregon group is being investigated by the Internal Revenue Service in a case that could determine whether the nation's community networks -- as many as 500 organizations that provide Internet access to the poor -- can keep their nonprofit status. Oregon Public Networking, which provides Internet access to 12,000 people in rural southwestern Oregon, about 5,000 of whom meet federal poverty guidelines, has been audited by the IRS and may lose its tax-exempt status, said Shava Nerad, the group's technical manager. Because of privacy laws, IRS officials could not confirm whether an audit had been conducted, and Nerad declined to release the audit report because it contains confidential information about the organization. As evidence of the audit, Nerad provided a four-page letter from the IRS dated May 7, 1997 and signed by Angela Wright, an IRS specialist in exempt organizations. The letter requested copies of the organization's documents for examination and said, in part: "We examine returns to verify the correctness of income or gross receipts, deductions, and credits and to determine that the organization is operating in the manner stated and for the purpose set forth in its application for recognition of exemption." Nerad said the auditors' final report was sent to IRS attorneys on July 15 for a ruling. The issues involving nonprofit Internet service providers are so new, she said, that the auditors requested the ruling from IRS headquarters in Washington. While he declined to comment on this case, Marc Owens, director of the IRS's exempt organizations division, said nonprofit organizations that provide Internet access risk jeopardizing their tax-exempt status if they cannot demonstrate that they operate different from commercial Internet service providers. "The key question with regard to any Internet service provider is, 'What are you doing that is any different from the America Onlines of the world?' " Owens said. For example, he said an organization can run into trouble for collecting "donations" that actually constitute fees for service. Also, a nonprofit Internet service provider must provide service in a way that is either free or "substantially" below the prices charged by commercial providers, Owens said. Oregon Public Networking offers Internet access for up to $10 per month to those who meet federal poverty guidelines; some households qualify for free service, while others can choose to pay $17 per month for a better connection. In comparison, commercial Internet service providers typically offer unlimited access for $19.95 per month. OPN's Nerad said that the audit of the Oregon group found that 85 percent of the organization's income was "unrelated business income," which means the income cannot be considered tax exempt because it comes from fees for service. However, Diane Cornwell, a partner with the accounting firm Arthur Andersen and a specialist in tax-exempt organizations said this finding could be attributed to the group's sliding-scale pricing structure. If fewer than 50 percent of the group's customers received free service, Cornell said, the total income from people who pay higher fees would constitute a significant portion of the organization's income. She said one way to justify these figures is to show who is using the service and how the money is spent. Paul M.A. Baker, an assistant professor of public policy at George Mason University who studies community networks, said the Oregon group's accounting methods are common among nonprofit Internet service providers, noting that many provide some of their service at market cost to subsidize service to the poor. "It's like going after a free clinic because they might be making money," Baker said. However, Ada Rousso, a director with PriceWaterhouseCoopers who previously worked in the chief counsel's office of the IRS, said that the questions raised in the OPN case commonly arise in IRS examinations of nonprofit groups. "Any tax-exempt organization would get that kind of review," she said. "In order to maintain that status, there are many things you can and cannot do." While the OPN audit may be routine, Arthur Andersen's Cornwell pointed out that the outcome of this particular case could formulate the basis for the government's policy toward other nonprofit Internet service providers. "It would sound to me like they are trying to, quote, unquote, 'make law,' " Cornwell said. "How hard the organizations fight may ultimately have an impact on the policy or the ruling." Owens, the IRS director, acknowledged that dealing with nonprofit Internet service providers "is an emerging issue for us." As part of its continuing education program, IRS officials said they plan to release a training course for agents this week that will teach them how to assess whether nonprofit community networks comply with tax laws. IRS officials select an annual topic for training, and nonprofit Internet access providers will be the focus this year. For its part, OPN has tapped the Colorado-based Association For Community Networking, which has 100 members nationwide, for support in its effort to maintain its nonprofit status. Richard Civille, a member of the association's board, said that without tax-exempt status, community networks could cease to exist. "We're pretty determined not to see this happen," Civille said. "We cannot have a healthy information economy without equal access to the Net. The role of community networks in helping to promote full equity is growing. You kill community networks, and you create more income disparity." That disparity has become an issue of increasing national concern. Last week, the Commerce Department's National Telecommunications and Information Administration released a study that reported growing disparity between information "haves" and "have nots." The study indicated that African American and Hispanic households lag behind the national average for telephone penetration, personal computer ownership and online access; and that households at the lowest income levels are among the least connected. Meanwhile, the Clinton Administration is backing a program that would expand access to the Internet by providing subsidized connections to schools and libraries. This effort, commonly referred to as the E-rate program, is paid for by fees imposed on telecommunications companies, and is currently under scrutiny in Washington. Oregon Public Networking, based in Eugene, is fairly typical of nonprofit community networks. It started in 1992 and operates on a budget of about $500,000 a year. The group has installed about 40 computers for public access in senior centers, public housing projects, homeless shelters and libraries in Lane County, an area that is home to a state university and several logging towns. Besides offering public terminals and free or discounted Internet access, Oregon Public Networking pays the long-distance telephone charges of subscribers in the rural county so they can have dial-up service to the Internet at local rates. The group's long-distance phone bill to provide that service is $10,000 per month, Nerad said. The group also teaches courses on cheap Internet access, including one called "How to get on the Net for less than 50 bucks," which trains students how to rig secondhand computer equipment to work on the Internet. Last month, the group laid off two of its eight staff members, and Nerad herself works for half-pay. She blames the audit, in part, on the IRS's lack of familiarity with the Internet and community networks such as OPN. "One of our biggest terrors is that this is going to land on some bureaucrat's desk who doesn't know anything about the Internet except what he's seen on the evening news," Nerad said. Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From will at scn.org Fri Aug 7 20:35:27 1998 From: will at scn.org (Will Hafer) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 20:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: was (RE: ispell findings...) now...making changes In-Reply-To: <000001bdbb4f$f1cd0e40$0f02000a@contsrv.paydata> Message-ID: I've been following the ISpell discussion. I use ISpell over at the UW and find it irritatating to use because it's commands are the reverse of my Windows and MS DOS spell checkers. In all my other spell checkers the "a" command dds a word to the spell checker's dictionary and the "i" command gnores the misspelled word. But for some perverse reason the authors of ISpell reverse these easy to remember commands and instead use the "a" command to ignore a misspelled word and the "i" command to add a word to it's dictionary. Is there a way to change these commands so that they conform to popular spell checking commands? Will Hafer will at scn.org 206-233-8443 POB 31476 Seattle WA 98103-1476 USA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From will at scn.org Fri Aug 7 20:35:27 1998 From: will at scn.org (Will Hafer) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 20:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: was (RE: ispell findings...) now...making changes In-Reply-To: <000001bdbb4f$f1cd0e40$0f02000a@contsrv.paydata> Message-ID: I've been following the ISpell discussion. I use ISpell over at the UW and find it irritatating to use because it's commands are the reverse of my Windows and MS DOS spell checkers. In all my other spell checkers the "a" command dds a word to the spell checker's dictionary and the "i" command gnores the misspelled word. But for some perverse reason the authors of ISpell reverse these easy to remember commands and instead use the "a" command to ignore a misspelled word and the "i" command to add a word to it's dictionary. Is there a way to change these commands so that they conform to popular spell checking commands? Will Hafer will at scn.org 206-233-8443 POB 31476 Seattle WA 98103-1476 USA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Mon Aug 10 08:59:01 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 07:59:01 -0800 Subject: Web Message-ID: <199808101507.IAA01412@scn.org> The Web Usage Paradox: Why Do People Use Something This Bad? Jakob Nielsen's Alertbox for August 9, 1998 The Web is bad; really bad. My estimate is that at least 90% of all commercial websites are overly difficult to use due to problems like: --bloated page design that takes forever to download --internally focused design that hypes products without giving any real info about them --obscure site structures that either have no logic or are based on the company's org.chart --lack of navigation support, making it very hard to find things when combined with an obscure structure --narrative writing style optimized for print and linear reading; not for the way users read online (they don't; they scan) As discussed in my previous column on user testing of websites, the average outcome of Web usability studies is that test users fail when they try to perform a test task on the Web. Thus, when you try something new on the Web, the expected outcome is failure. Even when the site works, the total user experience often remains miserable. For example, I recently had to buy a new PC and tried to do so through Dell's website, following my own rule that you must live a "Web lifestyle" yourself if you want to be an Internet pundit. The Dell site had some weaknesses, but it was reasonably easy to use and allowed me to order the desired high-end machine. Three days later I received a confirmation email stating that the machine was expected to ship 6 weeks later. This was obviously not satisfactory: when you order on the Internet, Amazon.com has trained users to expect a confirmation email within a few minutes and the product within a few days, unless the website has warned them about shipping delays. When I called up Dell, I was told that the late delivery was because my requested tape drive was out of stock. How about integrating your inventory system with your website, folks? Customers need to be told about delays and inventory problems while they are still researching their purchase online and can consider alternative options. Outcome: Dell lost a $3,035 order because their website delivered poor customer service. Why Do They Like It? There are several reasons why people keep using the Web despite its many problems: Even though 90% of sites are bad, users don't spend 90% of their time at bad sites. People only visit a bad site once but become loyal users of the good sites. Thus, any individual user may spend 90% of his or her time at good sites and only 10% checking out bad sites. For example, Yahoo! is the most-visited site on the Web, partly because they have one of the fastest and most minimalist designs. Most people don't know how much better the Web could be. Think back to the age of the Ford T: people bought this car in droves since it was better than riding a horse. But if you had to chose between a Model T and a Mercedes E430, you would pick the Mercedes. To me, using the Web is like having to drive a Model T every day when I used to drive a Mercedes: I know how much better hypertext systems can be, based on all the research we did back in the 1980s and early 90s. Sometimes the Web does work and is better than reality. For example, it is much easier to bookmark a list of stock quotes at a website than it is to look up the stock price in the newspaper. It is even easier to search for company-related news online than to scan the business pages. Because they do get good service on the web every now and then, users behave somewhat like Skinner's rats who would keep pressing a lever in their cage as long as it gave them a food pellet at rare intervals. In fact, the rat would keep going longer if the food pellets came at random intervals: with randomness, there is always the hope that next time will bring the reward - exactly as when you click a link on the Web. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From douglas Wed Aug 12 11:07:35 1998 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CTTAB openings Message-ID: <199808121807.LAA29609@scn.org> CTTAB is the city of Seattle's "Citizen's Telecommunications and Technology Advisory Board" on which Aki and I both serve. There are supposed to be 15 members but currently there are 3 vacancies. IF you think you might be interested, please contact Lynn Masters at 206-386-0031. She'll be able to give your more information about the post and about applying for it. There is quite a bit of information on the city's PAN web site also. -- Doug * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bk846 at scn.org Wed Aug 12 14:25:49 1998 From: bk846 at scn.org (Bill S) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the "C" for again? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Rich; I'm not disagreeing but we do need to think of other factors. On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > I just came from teaching regular folks how to use e-mail tonight at Green > Lake Library. My "in the trenches" experience tells me that forming > community is not where SCN is lacking (though it doesn't do much there > either). SCN's major stumble-and-fall is that it cannot provide service. > > Even if we do a successful PR campaing, will we solve such problems as: > > 1. Adopt an e-mail program that is easier that the 2 Unix options? > [Right now we do not.] Installing a graphical e-mail system such as Eudora, Netscape Communicator or whatever depends on getting a SLIP or PPP connection working > > 2. Get enough volunteers (and org. resources) to actually TEACH > incoming people how to use SCN? [Right now we do not.] This means first defining what it is we need to teach them and how to get them to come to classes. > > 3. Offer a WEB browser that will handle the current (and coming) > graphical technology. [Right now we do not.] Again dependent on a SLIP/PPP connection which is up to hardware/software. We also have to consider where the point is when we stop looking like a community service and start being in competition with commercial ISPs. If all we do is duplicate services that any local or national ISP provides then we're asking for trouble. Ken has lots of info on alternative browsers and we should consider something that keeps the cost down. > > 4. Set an organized process to recycle computers from the community? > [Right now we do not, except for Sharma's lonely efforts.] > > 5. Effectively lobby city, county, and state governments for publicly > funded trunk lines (e.g. to rural areas where users have to buck > long-distance costs) [Right now we do not.] > > So many decisions. If we get to be successful providers, will be call > down the wrath of Republicans and commercial IPs for undercutting them? Yes, we probably will. There's another ongoing discussion relating to problems other Freenets are having with the IRS over their tax exempt status and the whole concept of Freenets. We need to be looking at what we are planning for the future but also staying aware of the limitations of our 501c3 status. > > WE NEED TO GATHER AND GET SOME VISION AND MISSION. and we need do do that soon before we are overcome by events. > Later, > Rich I'm not going to move it there but might suggest that this discussion and the overall Freenet situation discussion might be moved to the scn.ideas forum so more people would be able to contribute. Anyone else in favor of that ? Bill S bk846 at scn.org "Warning:Dates on the calendar billhs at speakeasy.org are closer than they appear." ****Unless otherwise stated, this message may be forwarded***** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Wed Aug 12 14:47:10 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the "C" for again? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bill S wrote: > I'm not going to move it there but might suggest that this discussion and > the overall Freenet situation discussion might be moved to the scn.ideas > forum so more people would be able to contribute. Anyone else in favor of > that ? Bill, No, because the scn.ideas forum is still a comparatively inaccessible place to post messages, because no one can post a message there without first obtaining a registered SCN user ID (a small fraction of interested local residents), and then still can't post messages except when dialed in to SCN's phone line or telnet address. Many more people would find it easier to participate if mailing lists like this one (scn at scn.org) and CPSR's local-computer-activists were mirrored on the Web, so that interested people all over the Seattle area could click a mailto link to send a message to the list. We have the technical means to do that. It could be set up tomorrow if people wanted to do it. But so far, I'm not at all sure that anyone in SCN's leadership has a real desire to open up the discussions more widely than among the few people who are now subscribed to the lists. Rod Clark bb615 at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From femme2 at scn.org Wed Aug 12 15:05:12 1998 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the "C" for again? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, Rod Clark wrote: > Many more people would find it easier to participate if mailing > lists like this one (scn at scn.org) and CPSR's local-computer-activists > were mirrored on the Web, so that interested people all over the > Seattle area could click a mailto link to send a message to the list. > We have the technical means to do that. It could be set up tomorrow > if people wanted to do it. But so far, I'm not at all sure that > anyone in SCN's leadership has a real desire to open up the > discussions more widely than among the few people who are now > subscribed to the lists. I would be very much in favor of opening up the discussion. But I am not at all sure that I am defined as an "SCN leader." Lorraine Pozzi Soon-to-be ex-board member femme2 at scn.org > > Rod Clark > bb615 at scn.org > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe services > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From randy at scn.org Wed Aug 12 15:10:34 1998 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:10:34 -0700 Subject: What's the "C" for again? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9808122215.AA05146@redwood.rt.cs.boeing.com> This is the only message I will post to the collected lists above - I am getting multiple posts, and I'm sure that others are as well. What should be the appropriate forum for this discussion? Rod - I disagree as to the desire about opening up discussions. We've been too cautious I think, partly from a desire to be able to control the situation if it DID get out of hand (how do you remove a 'harrassing' poster if you don't have any control over their account, or even from whence they come?). We have discussed allowing the forums on the web, but only if people signed up. This is an option. Or do we just set up the forums, and if they get out of control, remove them? At this point, I favor the latter course. Presume from the beginning that people will be civil. There are some valid objections from others on the board as to this course of action. But I think that the experience with the limited test that we have run indicates to me that we are perhaps more concerned than we ought to be. I presume you are talking about WWWBoard or something similar. I propose that an agenda item at the next board meeting that we finally implement freely accessible discussion groups on SCN. -randy At 02:47 PM 8/12/98 -0700, Rod Clark wrote: >Bill S wrote: >> I'm not going to move it there but might suggest that this discussion and >> the overall Freenet situation discussion might be moved to the scn.ideas >> forum so more people would be able to contribute. Anyone else in favor of >> that ? > >Bill, > > No, because the scn.ideas forum is still a comparatively >inaccessible place to post messages, because no one can post a >message there without first obtaining a registered SCN user ID (a >small fraction of interested local residents), and then still can't >post messages except when dialed in to SCN's phone line or telnet >address. > > Many more people would find it easier to participate if mailing >lists like this one (scn at scn.org) and CPSR's local-computer-activists >were mirrored on the Web, so that interested people all over the >Seattle area could click a mailto link to send a message to the list. >We have the technical means to do that. It could be set up tomorrow >if people wanted to do it. But so far, I'm not at all sure that >anyone in SCN's leadership has a real desire to open up the >discussions more widely than among the few people who are now >subscribed to the lists. > >Rod Clark >bb615 at scn.org > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >scna-board at scn.org For communication with members of the SCNA >Board of Directors. To unsubscribe, send a message to listowner >Stefani Banerian (banerian at scn.org) > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Wed Aug 12 16:00:30 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:00:30 -0700 Subject: What's the "C" for again? Message-ID: <01BDC60A.5529FE70.jmabel@saltmine.com> As far as 501(c)3, if everything remains a voluntary donation -- we don't charge for service -- it's pretty hard to imagine that offering SLIP or PPP would endanger our status. -----Original Message----- From: Bill S [SMTP:bk846 at scn.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 2:26 PM To: Rich Littleton Cc: Doug Schuler; Email Training; alboss at scn.org; fundrasing at scn.org; outreach at scn.org; scna-board at scn.org; scn at scn.org; services at scn.org Subject: Re: What's the "C" for again? Hi Rich; I'm not disagreeing but we do need to think of other factors. On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > I just came from teaching regular folks how to use e-mail tonight at Green > Lake Library. My "in the trenches" experience tells me that forming > community is not where SCN is lacking (though it doesn't do much there > either). SCN's major stumble-and-fall is that it cannot provide service. > > Even if we do a successful PR campaing, will we solve such problems as: > > 1. Adopt an e-mail program that is easier that the 2 Unix options? > [Right now we do not.] Installing a graphical e-mail system such as Eudora, Netscape Communicator or whatever depends on getting a SLIP or PPP connection working > > 2. Get enough volunteers (and org. resources) to actually TEACH > incoming people how to use SCN? [Right now we do not.] This means first defining what it is we need to teach them and how to get them to come to classes. > > 3. Offer a WEB browser that will handle the current (and coming) > graphical technology. [Right now we do not.] Again dependent on a SLIP/PPP connection which is up to hardware/software. We also have to consider where the point is when we stop looking like a community service and start being in competition with commercial ISPs. If all we do is duplicate services that any local or national ISP provides then we're asking for trouble. Ken has lots of info on alternative browsers and we should consider something that keeps the cost down. > > 4. Set an organized process to recycle computers from the community? > [Right now we do not, except for Sharma's lonely efforts.] > > 5. Effectively lobby city, county, and state governments for publicly > funded trunk lines (e.g. to rural areas where users have to buck > long-distance costs) [Right now we do not.] > > So many decisions. If we get to be successful providers, will be call > down the wrath of Republicans and commercial IPs for undercutting them? Yes, we probably will. There's another ongoing discussion relating to problems other Freenets are having with the IRS over their tax exempt status and the whole concept of Freenets. We need to be looking at what we are planning for the future but also staying aware of the limitations of our 501c3 status. > > WE NEED TO GATHER AND GET SOME VISION AND MISSION. and we need do do that soon before we are overcome by events. > Later, > Rich I'm not going to move it there but might suggest that this discussion and the overall Freenet situation discussion might be moved to the scn.ideas forum so more people would be able to contribute. Anyone else in favor of that ? Bill S bk846 at scn.org "Warning:Dates on the calendar billhs at speakeasy.org are closer than they appear." ****Unless otherwise stated, this message may be forwarded***** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From kv9x at scn.org Wed Aug 12 16:05:31 1998 From: kv9x at scn.org (Brian K. High) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:05:31 -0700 Subject: What's the "C" for again? Message-ID: <005b01bdc645$bef7dd00$0b8795cf@metals.arilabs.com> Randy and the rest ... It should be made clear that if we mirror email lists to the web, we have the same control over those mirrors as we do for the email lists that are mirrored. If someone is not allowed to post to the email list, their post will never make it to the mirror on the web. That is, we have a lot of control over mirrored email lists because we have a lot of control over majordomo. --Brian >At this point, I favor the latter course. Presume from the beginning that >people will be civil. There are some valid objections from others on the >board as to this course of action. But I think that the experience with >the limited test that we have run indicates to me that we are perhaps more >concerned than we ought to be. > >I presume you are talking about WWWBoard or something similar. > >I propose that an agenda item at the next board meeting that we finally >implement freely accessible discussion groups on SCN. > >-randy > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Wed Aug 12 22:35:36 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the "C" for again? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: See edits on edits on comments below. ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, Bill S wrote: > Hi Rich; > > I'm not disagreeing but we do need to think of other factors. > > On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > > > I just came from teaching regular folks how to use e-mail tonight at Green > > Lake Library. My "in the trenches" experience tells me that forming > > community is not where SCN is lacking (though it doesn't do much there > > either). SCN's major stumble-and-fall is that it cannot provide service. > > > > Even if we do a successful PR campaing, will we solve such problems as: > > > > 1. Adopt an e-mail program that is easier that the 2 Unix options? > > [Right now we do not.] > Installing a graphical e-mail system such as Eudora, Netscape Communicator > or whatever depends on getting a SLIP or PPP connection working TRUE, BUT THEN LET'S DO THAT FIRST BEFORE ADDING MORE USERS. > > > > > 2. Get enough volunteers (and org. resources) to actually TEACH > > incoming people how to use SCN? [Right now we do not.] > This means first defining what it is we need to teach them and how to get > them to come to classes. TRUE, BUT THEN LET'S DO THAT FIRST BEFORE ADDING MORE USERS. > > > > > 3. Offer a WEB browser that will handle the current (and coming) > > graphical technology. [Right now we do not.] > > Again dependent on a SLIP/PPP connection which is up to hardware/software. > We also have to consider where the point is when we stop looking like a > community service and start being in competition with commercial ISPs. If > all we do is duplicate services that any local or national ISP provides > then we're asking for trouble. Ken has lots of info on alternative > browsers and we should consider something that keeps the cost down. > TRUE, BUT THEN LET'S DO THAT FIRST BEFORE ADDING MORE USERS. > > > > 4. Set an organized process to recycle computers from the community? > > [Right now we do not, except for Sharma's lonely efforts.] > > > > 5. Effectively lobby city, county, and state governments for publicly > > funded trunk lines (e.g. to rural areas where users have to buck > > long-distance costs) [Right now we do not.] > > > > So many decisions. If we get to be successful providers, will be call > > down the wrath of Republicans and commercial IPs for undercutting them? > > Yes, we probably will. There's another ongoing discussion relating to > problems other Freenets are having with the IRS over their tax exempt > status and the whole concept of Freenets. We need to be looking at what we > are planning for the future but also staying aware of the limitations of > our 501c3 status. > TRUE, BUT THEN LET'S DO THAT FIRST BEFORE ADDING MORE USERS. > > I'm not going to move it there but might suggest that this discussion and > the overall Freenet situation discussion might be moved to the scn.ideas > forum so more people would be able to contribute. Anyone else in favor of > that ? > Hmmmmmmm. That might just dump the discussion into a dark and rarely visited corner. Rich > Bill S > bk846 at scn.org "Warning:Dates on the calendar > billhs at speakeasy.org are closer than they appear." > ****Unless otherwise stated, this message may be forwarded***** > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Wed Aug 12 22:41:47 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the "C" for again? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rod Clark made some good points. The current "discussion web" seems to reach a core of players. Plus it is relatively accessible. Eventually, (in 3 days ?????), I would love to see a central discussion corridor, such as the one Rod suggested. I too worry that our current board does not feel broad communication is important in a participatory organization, and I think that impacts the org. negatively, as in not having electronic voting so we can get a significantly larger participation. (Have I mentioned electronic voting before?) ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Wed Aug 12 22:45:46 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the "C" for again? In-Reply-To: <9808122215.AA05146@redwood.rt.cs.boeing.com> Message-ID: Randy, I get 4 or 5 copies of each message. However, I just delete the extra copies of the ones with the same subject line. (or, if in Pine, hit d repeatedly) Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Wed Aug 12 22:48:41 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the "C" for again? In-Reply-To: <9808122215.AA05146@redwood.rt.cs.boeing.com> Message-ID: Randy, I have no problem with limiting SCN discussion admission to SCN users. However, my concern is the limited "in-the-family" communication options open to SCN users generally. Thus, a central corridor like Rod suggested, (if I understand it correctly). By the way, have I mentioned the idea of electronic voting for SCNA elections? Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Wed Aug 12 22:53:00 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the "C" for again? In-Reply-To: <005b01bdc645$bef7dd00$0b8795cf@metals.arilabs.com> Message-ID: Good point about our control over mirrored lists. ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Thu Aug 13 08:05:30 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:05:30 -0700 Subject: What's the "C" for again? Message-ID: <01BDC691.24432660.jmabel@saltmine.com> I'm all for replicating these discussions on the Web, but I don't want to see it turn into something where teh Web site is the only way to keep track. If this stuff doesn't come in my email, I probably don't see it. I'm not continually going out to proactively check up on SCN discussions. -----Original Message----- From: Rich Littleton [SMTP:be718 at scn.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 10:49 PM To: Randy Groves Cc: scna-board at scn.org; Bill S; Doug Schuler; Email Training; alboss at scn.org; fundrasing at scn.org; outreach at scn.org; scn at scn.org; services at scn.org Subject: Re: What's the "C" for again? Randy, I have no problem with limiting SCN discussion admission to SCN users. However, my concern is the limited "in-the-family" communication options open to SCN users generally. Thus, a central corridor like Rod suggested, (if I understand it correctly). By the way, have I mentioned the idea of electronic voting for SCNA elections? Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From billhs at speakeasy.org Thu Aug 13 18:59:39 1998 From: billhs at speakeasy.org (Bill Scott) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RFC- AKA What's the C for Message-ID: Rich; Again, no argument with what you have said. Those are things that need to be done. Before this goes any further please go to the SCN web page and read the Summer 98 SeaZine article "Community Networks Threatened". The IRS position described there puts us somewhere between a paradox and a quandry. The more we look like a commercial ISP and provide similar services the more likely we are to come under fire for competing with those commercial businesses. On the other hand, if we don't start modernizing our potential members/users are going to migrate to the commercial ISPs that provide the services wanted by those who might otherwise join us. I don't have any answers but before we take off toward new services and updating everything let's be sure we're not shooting ourselves in the foot. Bill S billhs at speakeasy.org "Two of the most famous products of U.C. Berkeley bk846 at scn.org are LSD and UNIX. Is this a coincidence ? " ******Unless otherwise stated,this message may be forwarded******** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From allen at scn.org Thu Aug 13 22:17:04 1998 From: allen at scn.org (allen) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the "C" for again? In-Reply-To: <9808122215.AA05146@redwood.rt.cs.boeing.com> Message-ID: I agree with Randy. I too am getting very tired of multiple e-mail posts to mostly irrelevant lists with the same msg. I don't think opening up discussions to non SCN members should be that big of a deal...we can always cancel it later. It was one thing when it we were talking about the SCN local forums 4 yrs ago...the world has changed a lot since then. allen On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, Randy Groves wrote: > Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:10:34 -0700 > From: Randy Groves > To: scna-board at scn.org, Bill S > Cc: Rich Littleton , Doug Schuler , > Email Training , alboss at scn.org, fundrasing at scn.org, > outreach at scn.org, scna-board at scn.org, scn at scn.org, services at scn.org > Subject: Re: What's the "C" for again? > > This is the only message I will post to the collected lists above - I am > getting multiple posts, and I'm sure that others are as well. What should > be the appropriate forum for this discussion? > > Rod - I disagree as to the desire about opening up discussions. We've been > too cautious I think, partly from a desire to be able to control the > situation if it DID get out of hand (how do you remove a 'harrassing' > poster if you don't have any control over their account, or even from > whence they come?). We have discussed allowing the forums on the web, but > only if people signed up. This is an option. Or do we just set up the > forums, and if they get out of control, remove them? > > At this point, I favor the latter course. Presume from the beginning that > people will be civil. There are some valid objections from others on the > board as to this course of action. But I think that the experience with > the limited test that we have run indicates to me that we are perhaps more > concerned than we ought to be. > > I presume you are talking about WWWBoard or something similar. > > I propose that an agenda item at the next board meeting that we finally > implement freely accessible discussion groups on SCN. > > -randy > > At 02:47 PM 8/12/98 -0700, Rod Clark wrote: > >Bill S wrote: > >> I'm not going to move it there but might suggest that this discussion and > >> the overall Freenet situation discussion might be moved to the scn.ideas > >> forum so more people would be able to contribute. Anyone else in favor of > >> that ? > > > >Bill, > > > > No, because the scn.ideas forum is still a comparatively > >inaccessible place to post messages, because no one can post a > >message there without first obtaining a registered SCN user ID (a > >small fraction of interested local residents), and then still can't > >post messages except when dialed in to SCN's phone line or telnet > >address. > > > > Many more people would find it easier to participate if mailing > >lists like this one (scn at scn.org) and CPSR's local-computer-activists > >were mirrored on the Web, so that interested people all over the > >Seattle area could click a mailto link to send a message to the list. > >We have the technical means to do that. It could be set up tomorrow > >if people wanted to do it. But so far, I'm not at all sure that > >anyone in SCN's leadership has a real desire to open up the > >discussions more widely than among the few people who are now > >subscribed to the lists. > > > >Rod Clark > >bb615 at scn.org > > > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > >scna-board at scn.org For communication with members of the SCNA > >Board of Directors. To unsubscribe, send a message to listowner > >Stefani Banerian (banerian at scn.org) > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Fri Aug 14 09:10:41 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:10:41 -0800 Subject: Gotta be careful Message-ID: <199808141753.KAA14114@scn.org> Filmmaker Sues ISP Over Termination of E-Mail Service Carl S. Kaplan NY Times 8/14/98 Last summer, Peter Hall, a New York-based independent filmmaker, was readying the premier of his first feature, "Delinquent." There were film critics to schmooze, T-shirts and postcards to print and a Web site to design. The writer-director planned to coordinate much of the promotion by e-mail. But about a month before the premiere, Hall was alarmed to find that he was unable to access his e-mail account. He said he called customer service for his Internet service provider, Earthlink Network Inc., and was told that the company had closed his account because he had "illegally accessed another provider's service." "It was complete gibberish," Hall recalled recently. "I felt they were accusing me of doing something that wasn't kosher, but I didn't know what. It was a totally impossible and absurd situation. I had done nothing wrong." Two weeks ago, Hall fought back. He went to court to seek over $7 million in damages from Earthlink, claiming injuries to his film business and mental health stemming from the allegedly wrongful disruption in e-mail service. According to legal papers filed in federal district court in Manhattan, the lawsuit charges Earthlink, based in Pasadena, Calif., with breach of contract, libel, negligence and a violation of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, among other counts. Kirsten Kappos, a spokeswoman for Earthlink, said the company would vigorously fight the lawsuit. "Our investigation is ongoing, and based on preliminary information, we have factual and legal defenses and we will aggressively defend ourselves," she said. She declined further comment. Legal and online experts say the novel case could help establish needed rules of the road for ISPs who want to shut down an e-mail account -- which can be a lifeline for many small entrepreneurs. Hall's travails began on Aug. 6, 1997, when he turned on his computer to check his e-mail and found that his password was refused. This was bad timing. His film, five years in gestation, was set to be unveiled in five weeks. Over the next few days, after several anxious phone calls and letters to the company, plus some media coverage, Hall discovered that Earthlink's "abuse" department had labeled him a "spammer," someone who sends out vast amounts of unsolicited e-mail. Specifically, an Earthlink official accused Hall of spamming America Online subscribers at 3 A.M. on Aug. 1, according to court papers. Spamming is a violation of Earthlink's subscription agreement and is grounds for immediate termination of an account upon notice to the subscriber. Escalating the situation, Earthlink on Aug. 6 posted to three separate public discussion groups a "Net Abuse Report" that referred to Hall's e-mail address, "lot99," and announced that the account had been terminated, according to the complaint. "[W]e continue to make every effort to rid the world of Spam," the message said. Hall claims in his court filing that he was falsely accused and had his account terminated without the required notice or an opportunity to defend himself. Six days after the e-mail issue began, Hall got the full account. He was told by a security official at UUNet Technologies Inc., which carries network traffic for many ISPs, that it had mistakenly told Earthlink he was a spammer. The mixup was evidently due to a false tracking number on a real spammer's output that matched one on some of Hall's messages. UUNet informed Earthlink of the mishap five days after Hall discovered that his account was closed, according to the court papers. Earthlink eventually tried to make up with Hall by offering him six months of free service, but Hall said he declined the offer. "I started yelling at them" over the phone, he said. "It was the first time I yelled at them. I had already spent more money than the offer was worth on telephone calls, letters and admission to a hacker convention," he added, referring to a meeting of hacking aficionados in New York City where he had hoped to find a savvy lawyer. In his lawsuit, Hall claims Earthlink defamed him when it posted a message to a discussion group that indicated the movie director was a spammer. And at least some online experts think the term "spammer" is sufficiently contemptible to amount to libel. "Spammers are scum," said Paul Hoffman, director of the Internet Mail Consortium, a trade group for Internet mail companies. "I don't know anyone who wouldn't find the term 'spammer' heavily pejorative." Ken Bass, a Washington-based lawyer who has a large Internet-related practice, added: "Assuming the facts are there [as alleged in the complaint], and assuming he can show actual financial injury, he's got a good [libel] claim." Andrew Grosso, a lawyer for Hall, said he believed the case was legally significant because it could result in a ruling that an ISP has a legal duty to give a customer notice of an impending account termination and a reasonable opportunity to defend against the charge -- whether such obligations are spelled out in a subscriber contract or not. In addition, Grosso said, ISPs have a legal duty to promptly forward e-mail from a closed account to a subscriber's new account. Grosso claimed that Earthlink did not fully forward Hall's old e-mail -- nearly 600 messages -- to his new account until recently. At the least, said the lawyer, an ISP should bounce e-mail back to the sender when an account is closed. "We are saying there is a duty in cyberspace for an ISP to deliver the mail or send it back," Grosso said. Such legal obligations for ISPs are not universally recognized at present, said Hoffman of the Internet Mail Consortium. But that may change. According to Bass, an ISP's suspension of an e-mail account on the basis of one accusation of abuse is "an unwise and risky action for an ISP to take." "This is a new area of law, but I have no doubt that courts will find that ISPs have some liability for the erroneous, intentional blocking of e-mail," Bass said. For his part, Hall says he is trying to move on to his next film. Could it be about e-mail? "No way," he said. "People think my legal story is a great idea for a movie, but how exciting is a computer screen? You can't make a movie about making telephone calls and sending faxes and being driven out of your wits." Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Sat Aug 15 03:14:11 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 03:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RFC- AKA What's the C for In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bill, You're correct to ponder precisely these points. And here's a scary thought I have in increasing occurrences these days. Our social/political basis might be being run so that enterprises which are not commercial, are disfavored. (Just today a federal court ruled in favor of tobacco companies by saying that nicotine has not been shown to be a drug, so the FDA may not regulate cigarette distribution.) If that is true, then freenets will be forced to function at a useless level, or be crushed by tax laws. Freenets might have to engage some high-powered legal help to look very closely at the tax laws and see how they can function without restraints by the IRS or without opposition from IPs. However, what we can't do is self-censure so we are doing to ourselves what we worry the IRS (or other IPs) would do. Thanks for the note. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Bill Scott wrote: > Rich; > > Again, no argument with what you have said. Those are things that need to > be done. > > Before this goes any further please go to the SCN web page and read the > Summer 98 SeaZine article "Community Networks Threatened". > > The IRS position described there puts us somewhere between a paradox and a > quandry. The more we look like a commercial ISP and provide similar > services the more likely we are to come under fire for competing with > those commercial businesses. On the other hand, if we don't start > modernizing our potential members/users are going to migrate to the > commercial ISPs that provide the services wanted by those who might > otherwise join us. > > I don't have any answers but before we take off toward new services and > updating everything let's be sure we're not shooting ourselves in the > foot. > > Bill S > billhs at speakeasy.org "Two of the most famous products of U.C. Berkeley > bk846 at scn.org are LSD and UNIX. Is this a coincidence ? " > ******Unless otherwise stated,this message may be forwarded******** > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From ljbeedle at scn.org Sat Aug 15 04:32:59 1998 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 04:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RFC- AKA What's the C for In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As a non profit organization my understanding is that the IRS is more concerned with our being non profit than the technology used to provide a service. As I have read the current cases, those organizations under review were charging for service - perhaps a sliding scale, but charging. SCN does not. Therefore we are clearly non profit. As long as we stick to the goal of making web service available to all, and only accept donations, I don't see a problem. However, rather than base technical decisions on possible tax implications we should see if there is a legal type person willing to donate their research and advice on those issues. The Fremont Street Clinic is a non profit medical organization, Northwest Hospital is a for profit. Fremont does not make medical decisions based on possible competion with Northwest. Lois Beedle * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Mon Aug 17 09:22:03 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:22:03 -0800 Subject: Web searches Message-ID: <199808171530.IAA12277@scn.org> For those of you who haven't already noticed.... ========================== Search Sites' Shocking Secret Jesse Berst Editorial Director, ZDNet AnchorDesk Search engines are the most popular and most important places on the Web. Yet their press releases are about partnerships, portalization, acquisitions, services -- about everything except searching. As if they want to distract us, so we won't notice three disturbing facts about today's search sites: They're very poor at their core job. They're getting worse. They're doing it deliberately . Secret No. 1: Search sites are out of date and incomplete. They can't keep up with the exploding Internet. And they're getting worse, not better, falling further and further behind. And they can't even sort out the pages they've indexed -- they've made little progress in relevancy rankings, still using crude techniques from years ago. Secret No. 2: A mini-industry has arisen to "cheat" the search engines. These companies use a variety of tricks to make a site show up at the top of the search results page (whether it belongs there or not). Secret No. 3: Many search sites are deliberately letting things deteriorate. With a few exceptions -- Northern Light, LookSmart -- most sites are de-emphasizing search technology, spending the money on marketing and advertising instead. Secret No. 4: Some search sites sell their rankings. Companies can pay money to guarantee that its site shows up first when you run a search on certain words. Secret No. 5: Some search/navigation engines deliberately exclude valuable sites from their listings. For instance, Yahoo boycotts sites from The Mining Company, an upstart competitor. This is like Republicans changing the Library of Congress card catalog to exclude anything written by Democrats. The books are still on the shelves. You just can't find them. Don't get me wrong. I believe search and navigation sites must evolve. Click for full story. And I agree they've gotten better at lots of things. At "channelizing" their content. At personalizing their pages. At adding services and freebies. But they're getting worse at search. They don't take it seriously. They don't invest enough in new technology. They don't resist the temptation to sell and censor the results. Search sites are the biggest, most popular, most profitable places on the Web. We depend on them. And they're screwing us by neglecting their most important job. Copyright (c) 1998 ZDNet * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From ljbeedle at scn.org Mon Aug 17 08:55:20 1998 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Web searches In-Reply-To: <199808171530.IAA12277@scn.org> Message-ID: If you want to see something shocking try webcrawler and "Safe Surf" But beware - the words are not what you want your kids (or in my case, myself) to see. Have filed letter of complaint with both webcrawler and excite - which is almost as bad. Lois Beedle I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From roger at pgtoday.com Tue Aug 18 05:24:23 1998 From: roger at pgtoday.com (Roger Schoenhals) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 05:24:23 -0700 Subject: Please Remove Message-ID: <01bdcaa3$22287a40$24293fce@grs> Please remove my address from the scn and scn services lists for the time being. Thank you. roger at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jimh at scn.org Tue Aug 25 13:54:30 1998 From: jimh at scn.org (Jim Horton) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Community Computer Fair Message-ID: First, I appologize to those that get multiple copies of this. I hope we can find a solution that gets information out to everyone without a blanket spam approach. I promised a more specific list of needs for volunteers for the Community Computer Fair. These are for the fair in general, and are not specific to the SCN presentation. Laborors - tag and move furniture, able to lift 25 lbs, available Friday, Sept 11, 8:00 - Noon or Saturday, Sept 12 5:00 - 8:00 PM Food Monitor - Monitor cafeteria area, 2-4 hour shifts between 9:45 AM and 3:00 PM on Saturday, Sept 12. Computer Lab Monitor - Assist general public on computers under direction of presenters. Knowledgable on Windows 95. Assist with connection of comptuter projector. Available 2-4 hour shifits between 9:45 AM and 2:30 PM on Saturday, Sept 12. Floor Monitor - Able to troubleshoot, interact with general public, answer questions, available Saturday, Sept 12 2-4 hour shifts between 9:30 AM and 4:00 PM. Parking Lot Attendant - Direct exhibitor traffic, monitor parking area, issue and check parking permits, work with security, strong communication skills, available for 2-4 hour shift between 8:30 AM and 2:30 PM on Friday, Sept 11 or 7:00 AM and 5:30 PM Saturday, Sept 12. Information Desk - Direct public, answer questions, provide literature, work with fair staff and volunteers, available for 2-4 hour shift between 9:30 AM and 4:00 PM on Saturday, Septh 12. Operation Room Monitor - Monitor personal property of staff and students, check in personal items and issue tag, work with security, oversee and coordinate floor monitors, available Friday, Sept 11 1-6 PM or Saturday, Sept 12 for 4 hour shifts. Registration - Handle registration duties / TBD If you can help with any of these tasks, pleas contact Lillie Brinkler drectly at 206-726-9865. For the SCNA specific volunteer needs, I have had a few folks volunteer to help with the information booth (thanks) but could use a few more. I still have a particular need for volunteers to teach or assist with email classes. Please let me know if you volunteer for the Computer Lab Monitor position listed above. I'll talk more about this all at the General Meeting tomorrow night. -Jim -- Jim Horton jimh at scn.org Seattle Community Network * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jimh at scn.org Wed Aug 26 17:01:37 1998 From: jimh at scn.org (Jim Horton) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Community Computer Fair location In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A number of folks pointed out that I included the what and when on the previous note, but not the where. The Community Computer Fair will be held at the Seattle Vocational Institute (SVI), located at 22nd and S. Jackson. I just received some more information on the volunteer needs, but it is in a Word format. Rather that continuing to send this out to multiple lists, I will limit further mailings to those that let me know they are interested. So far, that's a pretty small number. thanks, Jim -- Jim Horton jimh at scn.org Seattle Community Network * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From llaverdure at cis.ctc.edu Thu Aug 27 19:04:27 1998 From: llaverdure at cis.ctc.edu (Lynn Laverdure) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 19:04:27 -0700 Subject: Donation Needed Message-ID: <35E6102B.4509FA35@cis.ctc.edu> I have a friend who works at the Noel House in down town Seattle. According to her, Noel House is in need to two PCs. Noel House provides verious services to homeless women in Seattle. If anyone has any leads to some free computers, please email me back and I will pass the information along. Thank you. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Sun Aug 30 12:46:57 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:46:57 -0800 Subject: CyberProzac Message-ID: <199808301855.LAA09014@scn.org> Researchers Find Sad, Lonely World in Cyberspace Amy Harmon NY Times 8/30/98 In the first concentrated study of the social and psychological effects of Internet use at home, researchers at Carnegie Mellon University have found that people who spend even a few hours a week online experience higher levels of depression and loneliness than they would have if they used the computer network less frequently. Those participants who were lonelier and more depressed at the start of the two-year study, as determined by a standard questionnaire administered to all the subjects, were not more likely to use the Internet. Instead, Internet use itself appeared to cause a decline in psychological well-being, the researchers said. The results of the $1.5 million project ran completely contrary to expectations of the social scientists who designed it and to many of the organizations that financed the study. These included technology companies like Intel Corp., Hewlett Packard, AT&T Research and Apple Computer, as well as the National Science Foundation. "We were shocked by the findings, because they are counterintuitive to what we know about how socially the Internet is being used," said Robert Kraut, a social psychology professor at Carnegie Mellon's Human Computer Interaction Institute. "We are not talking here about the extremes. These were normal adults and their families, and on average, for those who used the Internet most, things got worse." The Internet has been praised as superior to television and other "passive" media because it allows users to choose the kind of information they want to receive, and often, to respond actively to it in the form of e-mail exchanges with other users, chat rooms or electronic bulletin board postings. Research on the effects of watching television indicates that it tends to reduce social involvement. But the new study, titled "HomeNet," suggests that the interactive medium may be no more socially healthy than older mass media. It also raises troubling questions about the nature of "virtual" communication and the disembodied relationships that are often formed in the vacuum of cyberspace. Participants in the study used inherently social features like e-mail and Internet chat more than they used passive information gathering like reading or watching videos. But they reported a decline in interaction with family members and a reduction in their circles of friends that directly corresponded to the amount of time they spent online. At the beginning and end of the two-year study, the subjects were asked to agree or disagree with statements like "I felt everything I did was an effort," and "I enjoyed life" and "I can find companionship when I want it." They were also asked to estimate how many minutes each day they spent with each member of their family and to quantify their social circle. Many of these are standard questions in tests used to determine psychological health. For the duration of the study, the subjects' use of the Internet was recorded. For the purposes of this study, depression and loneliness were measured independently, and each subject was rated on a subjective scale. In measuring depression, the responses were plotted on a scale of 0 to 3, with 0 being the least depressed and 3 being the most depressed. Loneliness was plotted on a scale of 1 to 5. By the end of the study, the researchers found that one hour a week on the Internet led, on average, to an increase of .03, or 1 percent, on the depression scale, a loss of 2.7 members of the subject's social circle, which averaged 66 people, and an increase of .02, or four-tenths of 1 percent, on the loneliness scale. The subjects exhibited wide variations in all three measured effects, and while the net effects were not large, they were statistically significant in demonstrating deterioration of social and psychological life, Kraut said. Based on these data, the researchers hypothesize that relationships maintained over long distances without face-to-face contact ultimately do not provide the kind of support and reciprocity that typically contribute to a sense of psychological security and happiness, like being available to baby-sit in a pinch for a friend, or to grab a cup of coffee. "Our hypothesis is there are more cases where you're building shallow relationships, leading to an overall decline in feeling of connection to other people," Kraut said. The study tracked the behavior of 169 participants in the Pittsburgh area who were selected from four schools and community groups. Half the group was measured through two years of Internet use, and the other half for one year. The findings will be published this week by The American Psychologist, the peer-reviewed monthly journal of the American Psychological Association. Because the study participants were not randomly selected, it is unclear how the findings apply to the general population. It is also conceivable that some unmeasured factor caused simultaneous increases in use of the Internet and decline in normal levels of social involvement. Moreover, the effect of Internet use varied depending on an individual's life patterns and type of use. Researchers said that people who were isolated because of their geography or work shifts might have benefited socially from Internet use. Even so, several social scientists familiar with the study vouched for its credibility and predicted that the findings would probably touch off a national debate over how public policy on the Internet should evolve and how the technology itself might be shaped to yield more beneficial effects. "They did an extremely careful scientific study, and it's not a result that's easily ignored," said Tora Bikson, a senior scientist at Rand, the research institution. Based in part on previous studies that focused on how local communities like Santa Monica, Calif., used computer networks to enhance civic participation, Rand has recommended that the federal government provide e-mail access to all Americans. "It's not clear what the underlying psychological explanation is," Ms. Bikson said of the study. "Is it because people give up day-to-day contact and then find themselves depressed? Or are they exposed to the broader world of Internet and then wonder, 'What am I doing here in Pittsburgh?' Maybe your comparison standard changes. I'd like to see this replicated on a larger scale. Then I'd really worry." Christine Riley, a psychologist at Intel Corp., the giant chip manufacturer that was among the sponsors of the study, said she was surprised by the results but did not consider the research definitive. "For us, the point is there was really no information on this before," Ms. Riley said. "But it's important to remember this is not about the technology, per se; it's about how it is used. It really points to the need for considering social factors in terms of how you design applications and services for technology." The Carnegie Mellon team -- which included Sara Kiesler, a social psychologist who helped pioneer the study of human interaction over computer networks; Tridas Mukophadhyay, a professor at the graduate business school who has examined computer mediated communication in the workplace; and William Scherlis, a research scientist in computer science -- stressed that the negative effects of Internet use that they found were not inevitable. For example, the main focus of Internet use in schools has been gathering information and getting in touch with people from far-away places. But the research suggests that maintaining social ties with people in close physical proximity could be more psychologically healthy. "More intense development and deployment of services that support pre-existing communities and strong relationships should be encouraged," the researchers write in their forthcoming article. "Government efforts to wire the nation's schools, for example, should consider online homework sessions for students rather than just online reference works." At a time when Internet use is expanding rapidly -- nearly 70 million adult Americans are on line, according to Nielsen Media Research -- social critics say the technology could exacerbate the fragmentation of U.S. society or help to fuse it, depending on how it is used. "There are two things the Internet can turn out to be, and we don't know yet which it's going to be," said Robert Putnam, a political scientist at Harvard University whose forthcoming book, "Bowling Alone," which is to be published next year by Simon & Schuster, chronicles the alienation of Americans from each other since the 1960s. "The fact that I'm able to communicate daily with my collaborators in Germany and Japan makes me more efficient, but there are a lot of things it can't do, like bring me chicken soup." Putnam added, "The question is how can you push computer mediated communication in a direction that would make it more community friendly." Perhaps paradoxically, several participants in the Internet study expressed surprise when they were informed of the study's conclusions by a reporter. "For me it's been the opposite of depression; it's been a way of being connected," said Rabbi Alvin Berkun, who used the Internet for a few hours a week to read The Jerusalem Post and communicate with other rabbis across the country. But Berkun said his wife did not share his enthusiasm for the medium. "She does sometimes resent when I go and hook up," he said, adding after a pause, "I guess I am away from where my family is while I'm on the computer." Another possibility is that the natural human preference for face-to-face communication may provide a self-correcting mechanism to the technology that tries to cross it. The rabbi's daughter, Rebecca, 17, said she had spent a fair amount of time in teen-age chat rooms at the beginning of the survey in 1995. "I can see how people would get depressed," Ms. Berkun said. "When we first got it, I would be on for an hour a day or more. But I found it was the same type of people, the same type of things being said. It got kind of old." Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END