From sharma at aa.net Tue Dec 1 22:38:26 1998 From: sharma at aa.net (Sharma) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 22:38:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Discussion: Sharma and Rich Message-ID: OK Rich, I will reply in detail. I have cut our various emails apart to enable anyone interested, maybe six people I would estimate, to read the whole thing. -sharma ----------------------------------------------------- Rich said: > Sounds like they just can't take a good discussion. > The problem I have with politeness is that it usually is an excuse for > (1) an intentional two-faced evading of the issues or (2) an > unintentional, but spineless, cowaring behind claims for calmness that > is a disguise for hiding from the issues. > My tongue is partially (only partially, mind you) in my cheek. But I > have seen too much used-car-salesman diplomacy that has nurtured delay > of essential changes for a long time. (e.g. delaying electronic > voting, supporting the un-elected and restricted Executive Committee > as a decision-making body, allowing the board to cut their meeting at > least in half, etc.) Sharma replied: >Regardless of Rich's enjoyment of "shooting from the lip", I fail to see >how it improves the functioning of SCNA. Verbal bullying in the name of >challenging "spineless cowering as a way of evading the discussion of >issues" is annoying to me, to say the least. I have no interest in working >with anyone who feels that intentional rudeness and verbal attacks are the >equivalent of a "good discussion". Rich replies: > Sharma, you really should specify my crimes. The message you >responded to did not have any of the things you are complaining about. >Next time, do include the instances that demonstrate what you are talking >about. Sharma replies: Perhaps you feel that "intentional two-faced evading" and "spineless cowaring" are simple reports of the "facts" as you see them. To me, they are verbal bullying. I prefer to not have to "take a good discussion" that feels more insulting to me that I wish to see in my email. It appears to me that your pleasure in setting the terms of discussion on attack mode is bullying. Possibly because you are so physically big, maybe most people during your life have been hesitant to protest over your preferred mode of "discussion". Just maybe most of those who can't, or are unwilling to, "take a good discussion" leave rather than continue to have this "good discussion" crammed down their throats. Rich said: >However, it is good to see some fire from you. And you even make >some good points. We need to hear from you on the public lists more >often. Sharma replies: I find this personally insulting. You have no idea who I am or what "fire" I am capable of. For the second point, I simply do not have time to read and respond to many of the posts on the scn lists. Often, when I do read them, I find they are either discussions within committees that need to be decided within that committee before the board gets involved, if at all, or they are heated exchanges over points I don't care about, nor plan to do anything about unless it is brought to the board via the committees. For example, the PINE discussion - I read a few of those posts and lost interest. From the headers, they went on for many, many posts. I do get considerable email from people who have decided not to participate on various scn lists anymore, or with SCNA, because they do not appreciate the level of personal insult and attack that passes for discussion and conversation in these lists. Is that completely insignificant to you? Rich said: > A Need for Serious Discussion > Righto! However, I haven't heard much from you on issues. I > assume you do serious discussion in board meetings, but since most of us > are not board members, we don't witness much of it. Wednesday night, at > the monthly meeting, which ended early, I invited you to sit down at > coffee, but you declined. After the annual meeting, a whole herd of us > went for coffee. You declined. You talk with your inner circle, but > when do you talk with members to get member input? > > At least join in on the list discussions more. Sharma replies: After you came over and made those comments about how good it was to see some fire from me, like I was on some little league team and you were appointed by the coach to work the team members up, I was way too annoyed to go chat with you. I have consistently been polite to you, often biting my tongue to do so. In return, you throw insults at the board without making any distinction whatsoever. I do not want to talk to you over coffee until I feel certain that you will not demand the right to set the tone of the whole conversation with your idea of a spirited discussion. I am unlikely to be trading insults one minute and then forget the next as if it was all just in the spirit of good fun. I don't find it fun. I take it seriously. As far as joining the group after the elections, as a member of the election committee, I participated in counting the votes so we could get the results of the election out immediately. The board meetings are open and anyone who wishes to can attend them and listen to the discussions we have. You know this because you have attended. I have personally posted my phone number on this, and other lists, and invited anyone who wishes to discuss any issue with me to call. I have had very few calls. Lots of people email me. Rich: > As for the seriousness of my "style." Hmmmmmm. If you think I am >not serious about the message, you are burying you've been in a closet. >That is the important element to me -- the message. As to style, I've seen >board members brush off gentle communications too readily, and use >phoney reasons (lack of respect, for example) to brush off others. I >suspect that part of the wish for sweetened and gentle tones is because it >makes it easier for board members to evade. Sharma said: >Rich you may believe that your style of communicating is fun, and helps >SCNA, but it has also hurt many people's feelings and has driven some >volunteers away. It may not seem to you important, but not everyone is >willing to continue to participate if the price is being attacked by you, and >by others, who prefer that as a mode of discussion. and: I do think you are serious about your message. However, I find your love of attack makes it less likely that I would want to participate with you on any particular project within SCNA. You certainly have the right to communicate in any way you wish as a person, but I am unwilling to have SCNA be an "attack" culture which drives away anyone who can't, or won't take it. As far as gentle communications being brushed off by board members who wish to evade, well, "evade" is another loaded word. I agree that there are several things we need to do that we have not done. It may surprise you, but some of things we have not done have a reasonable explanation for why they have not happened. When I read your "attack" communications, I often just skip them as I know if I respond, I will get sucked into a series of communications like this one which I consider mostly a waste of time. I would be extremely surprised if more than six people read the whole thing and respond to it. If that many... It appears to me that you brush off criticism of your style of communication as weakness, evasiveness, or whatever. When I read that from you, my inclination is to brush off your communications and do my best to ignore anything you might have to say to avoid having to read through the insults to get to the message. I realize that this only inspires you to escalate, but I have thus far had zero luck in influencing you to de-escalate. Perhaps you will reply that the only thing that would inspire de-escalation from you is action on the part of the board (that faceless entity which you appear to believe sits back as a solid group agreeing on every point to stymie the wishes of the members). To that all I can reply is that the board is made up of individuals and we are doing our best to be more effectively organized and to make more of our functioning public. SCNA is set up for most of the work, and most of the decisions, to be made within the committees. How's the work going in whatever committee you are on? How many people are in that committee? Are you recruiting new members? Are you having regular meetings? I do hear of your wish for more information from the board. And it is being discussed very seriously. However, as secretary, one of the reasons more minutes have not been forthcoming is that for the last several weeks you, and the elections, have taken up a great deal of the time I have for volunteering for SCNA. Just as I am not working on the most recent minutes at this minute because I am replying to your message about why you so enjoy your type of email message and I do not. Rich said: > It looks like you figured something had gone too far, and you sent a >well-aimed blast in response. I go along with that approach. I've done it >myself. And, when the calm communications don't get the job done, you >are right to blast away. I am certainly not in any position to complain >about your unleashing a little righteous anger. I might not agree with all >your points, but I applaud your stepping up an laying it on the line. Sharma replies: I really do not want to communicate in "blasts", nor to have that be the community culture. I do not approve of myself, or anyone else, unleashing a little "righteous anger". You simply have no idea of what you are doing by finding it humorous that you are attempting to provoke me. Where exactly do you think these little games should end? With verbal insults, physical intimidations, the police being called, or ??? Or has your size and bravado allowed you to set the limit with others always backing down until this time? Sharma said: >SCNA was set up to be both stable and open to change. It still is. Keeping >the system running is the first need. Changing the system, the software >programs which keep it running, is very time intensive and requires the >work of volunteers on the operations committee. The board can request >that operations work harder in areas where the users really, really want >change, such as the implementation of PINE for example, but we can't >order them to do so because they are also volunteers. >Rich may have forgotten that some of our attempts in electronic >democracy nearly brought the system down with email loops. Any change >needs a person or committee which will focus on that change. In spite of >Rich's contempt for the efforts of many, many people, some changes >which are needed have so far proven unsolvable, for example the database >project. Rich replied: > For example, back at the beginning of the year, the issue was raised: >put out an advance agenda before the board meetings so members can see >what the board will be working. There was no haranguing followup by >me. So, the idea just sat, and sat, and sat, and sat, and disappeared. You >did nothing with it. No board member did anything with it. > Now, we're not talking complexities here. Brian High puts out an >advance agenda with his committee. He sends out a notice of the agenda >in advance. Why can't the board? I personally think the reason is that the >board values silence from the members far more than it values democratic >input or open communication. I could be wrong, but the record suggests >that I'm not. Sharma replies: I agree that the board is not doing a good job with this, and we are discussing it. I cannot speak for the board, but I would not be surprised if we did make more effort to publish our agenda earlier. Gianni is now our board Pres., and he is much more organized than many of the rest of us and is really working to get us all to shape up. I support him in getting me to shape up in particular. In my opinion, you are imagining motives on the part of the board that do not exist. We do want communication from the members, but prefer it through the committees via the submission of a proposal of how to change or add or whatever it is the committee wants. "The Board" is made up of individuals who cannot act on their own in the name of the board. I really should create a SCNA "black hole" where member proposals that no one wants to work on could be parked until a member, or a committee or a subcommittee want to go to work on it. Nothing happens til someone takes responsibility for it and makes it happen. There is talk of creating webspace for each committee, and each member, to post exactly what they are doing within SCNA, i.e. the projects they are working on, what they have accomplished, what are the sticking points, what help they need from others, and so on. That would probably be very helpful to enable members to see just what is happening, and identify who is doing what, and find places to add their input to move things along. To have this happen, a person has to volunteer to do it, and then do it. Sharma said: >I personally am unwilling to have the "community culture" be one of "if >you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen", because it will mean that >only those who enjoy trading attacks will stick around. Is that what you >want? Rich replied: > Civility is nice, but not as an excuse to bury dysfunctional processes > in an organization. and: >Bullying ... mud ... > Well I never ....! Land o' Goshen! Bullying, eh? I don't think that >is a well defined term of art. That's a new twist from a board member, >however, Joel and Gianni accused me of not being respectful. Actually, >bullying is to use force/power unfairly. I don't see where I have enough >force/power to live up to that definition. Especially if you're referring to >my "abuse" of board members. Accusing an SCN member of "bullying" >board members is sort of like accusing a woman of being "pushy" because >she is insistent; that word choice might say more about the accuser than >about the accused. The inappropriateness of the term is even more >noticible when one reads the message that triggered your letter. > The same response could be applied to your "mud" word. > However, semantics aside, your basic point is: You don't like >argumentative language on the list communications. I think you are right. >Sweet and gentle is usually preferred by 9 out 10 SCN users. But so is >not-going-to-the-dentist. So is not-washing-the-dishes. The question is: >does the context call for it? > The answer is: It does. > Just as you concluded the context called for your well aimed blast at >me, Context is key. Sharma replies: Well, if your figure of 9-out-of-10 SCN users prefer sweet and gentle, should not that carry a little more weight with you if you are interested in an organization that gives the users what they want? Or are you appointing yourself the group dentist who is going to force all of us to submit to a little drilling whether "we" want it or not. For you to compare me calling you a bully to an insistent woman being called pushy only shows how little you understand how your "style" lands when you lash out. For you to use that sort of comparison is ludicrous. You could not possibly have any idea of how any woman who is trying to make a point might feel or you would not try to hide behind her skirts. The inappropriateness of your choice of this as a comparison certainly does show a lot about how you see yourself in relation to the board, but it has no relation to reality. I am surprised that you, who so casually throw out insults, would be offended or startled by me calling you a bully. In my opinion, you are. It would be interesting to be able to ask all the users and members who have resigned from the various scn lists why they resigned. Undoubtedly some did leave because the organization was not giving them enough of what they wanted. I have heard from several who left because they could not tolerate the constant harangues from and between self-appointed "dentists". Rich said: Assumes board has unlimited time ... > You've opened a BIG can of worms here, Sharma. I have to get to >some other things right now. I'll get into the question of the board >members' time availability in part 2 of this reply to you, later. (I, for one, >can hardly wait to hear what I have to say.) Sharma replies: Was that a little slip Rich, you are fascinated by what you will have to say about this? I wish I could find a little more enthusiasm for it. I have been on computer networks for 12 years, and have been in dozens of these flamewars, and I don't really know how much of this I am interested in doing. It takes away from the time I have to work on SCNA stuff that I simply must be doing. This particular letter has taken over three hours of my time. For me the bottom line is: I request that you modify your communication style and cease using personal insults in email lists. You are free to ignore my request, but I also am free to ignore any posts which contain insults and provocations. I am perfectly willing to work with you, I am not willing to be bullied by you. > Peacefully yours, > > Rich If only you had a commitment to any sort of peace other than one you are in charge of Rich, I could read that without gagging. The vast majority of SCNA members, and people in general, have no stomach for fighting. Unfortunately this distaste for combat leaves those who seek it with center stage most of the time. I have no desire to fight, but I also won't walk away from one. I will be nice if you will, the choice is yours. Sincerely, -sharma Thanks for the comment Barb, and we really are working on getting our agenda together earlier so we can get it out. -s The following is from Barb: Rich: Most of this discussion is of secondary consequence to a point I believe Sharma made: doing the job. Where is the substantive, job/work related issue here? Get lost from that, and you are using us for group therapy. I for one just don't care about that. I want to see forward movement on issues. You brought up a major one: board agendas. This is of rather vast importance. The membership does have the right to know what business is going to be conducted at board meetings and to know the results of that business in a timely manner. Otherwise, I personally feel that board members are abdicating their responsibilities and/or expropriating power from the membership. We can, of course, vote them out. But wouldn't it be easier if we just asked them to get a little more organized and responsive, like: publish the dang agenda, you guys, along with the meeting place and time; at least a week prior to the meeting. If there is very little on there, well, you can gradually learn how to remember to post agenda items, like, learning the job, as you go along. I remember I also asked, "how does one get on the agenda for a Board meeting?" and what I got was not a routine (send us an e mail with your proposal, we will post you on the agenda and return it to you) what I got was invitations to the meeting. No one ever asked me what the item was nor told me whether I would be on the agenda. The board isn't a party; please make up some routines to be responsive to membership. Barb P.S. Rich, I think I believe more in the steam engine approach (regular, steady pressure which is accessed until full throttle is reached) than the internal combustion approach (lots of little explosions push the pistons). * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From grayfox at foxinternet.net Wed Dec 2 08:57:27 1998 From: grayfox at foxinternet.net (Kenneth Crandall) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:57:27 -0800 Subject: Discussion: Sharma and Rich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401be1e14$d762ace0$62d608d0@grayfox.foxinternet.net> I for one did read this entire message. I am interested in seeing if the insults that are disguised as discussion will be reduced by someone tanking a stand against them. I have worked as a manager and as a volunteer. I have never believed in a mode of operation where co-workers are belittled. You might get away with this if you are the BOSS! You can never do this if you are working with volunteers. I believe that these "blast" messages are the sign of a dysfunctional organization whereas expecting civility is a sign of a functional organization. I have been waiting for a leader to say that these attack communications are not an accepted style of communicating with fellow SCN members. Rich is right on one point. The majority (I believe more than 9 out of 10) of SCN members expect civil communication. I further believe that civil communication is required to accomplish anything. Just try and get cooperation from someone you have insulted. Sharma, thanks for attempting to return SCN communication to civility. Ken Crandall bd252 at scn.org > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Sharma > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 10:38 PM > To: scna-board at scn.org; scn at scn.org; bb140 at scn.org; Rich Littleton > Subject: Discussion: Sharma and Rich > > > > OK Rich, > > I will reply in detail. I have cut our various emails apart to enable > anyone interested, maybe six people I would estimate, to read the whole > thing. > > -sharma > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From alboss at scn.org Wed Dec 2 11:07:04 1998 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 11:07:04 -0800 Subject: Conversation is not a hockey game References: <000401be1e14$d762ace0$62d608d0@grayfox.foxinternet.net> Message-ID: <36658FD8.F8247F7D@scn.org> We may not all agree on much, but I think we're all here because we want to make a difference, and when we talk it's because we have something we want someone else to hear. Personally, I'm going to try harder to keep that in mind--if I state my message in such a way that folks tune it out, I've wasted my time and yours, and not done what I'd set out to do. As long as we're limited to personal attacks on one another, we're not going to get very much else done. As long as we don't consider the way others will interpret what we say, we run the risk of not getting our message across. No one volunteers with SCN just because they feel like wasting their time, and no one takes the time to try to talk just so they can hear their brains rattle. I forget who said, "I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out," but I agree with Sharma--personally, that's not my preferred method of conversation. I have to recognize and accept that we have folks among us who believe that confrontation and provocation are necessary for good communication to occur. There are others (including me) who place a premium on civility and prefer to save our anger to channel into only those things that deserve it--speaking for myself, if a conversation makes me mad, I evaluate it and decide whether it's worth remaining in (and it usually isn't). That said, I'm the first to admit I can be unkind and downright insulting more often than I care to think about. What we ALL have in common here, despite our different approaches, is what drew us together at SCN in the first place--we believe that communication is important. If I go to great lengths to not call someone an idiot, it's because I'm afraid that pointing that out might jeopardize their ability to listen to, and respect, the rest of what I'm trying to say. If I do label some act, process, or stance as idiotic, it's because I strongly believe that I can't get my message across without making that point. So what? So this--if you're writing an e-mail or talking, it should be because you have something to say. If your message isn't direct, it'll be perceived by some as weak and they'll tune it out. If your message is insulting or combatative, it'll be perceived by some as a waste of their time and they'll tune it out. Either way, you don't accomplish your task; the message isn't getting through. (Al's broken record, part 72) Every time SCN or SCNA communications lose sight of talking about structure, processes, or outcomes, and start talking about individuals, we compromise our ability to get anything done. I think our system remains a kind of cult of personality, a collective of individuals rather than functions. (For example, there have been times when certain terms were synonymous: "Randy" and "the computer system", "Nancy" and "the volunteer system", "Marcia" and "fundraising", "Robert" and "registration", "JJ" and "modems", "Al" and "trouble", and so on--this makes it difficult to criticize an operation without seeming to insult a person.) We're all smart people. We ought to be able to, as individuals, take a hard look at how we talk and come up with ways each of us can better work with everyone else towards our common goals. Maybe we can even someday give SCN an identity of its own so we can talk about it without blasting someone important to our efforts. Al * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ttrim at scn.org Wed Dec 2 13:20:12 1998 From: ttrim at scn.org (Terry Trimingham) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:20:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Conversation is not a hockey game In-Reply-To: <36658FD8.F8247F7D@scn.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Al Boss wrote: > --speaking for myself, if a conversation makes me mad, I > evaluate it and decide whether it's worth remaining in (and it usually > isn't). I agree 100%. Recent exchanges have tempted me not only to unsubscribe to the lists I am on, but to drop out of sight as an SCN volunteer. It doesn't matter if the topic includes reference to me or not, I don't want to be a part of it in any way. > So what? So this--if you're writing an e-mail or talking, it should be > because you have something to say. If your message isn't direct, it'll > be perceived by some as weak and they'll tune it out. If your message > is insulting or combatative, it'll be perceived by some as a waste of > their time and they'll tune it out. Either way, you don't accomplish > your task; the message isn't getting through. Once again, I agree. The only way I have learned to survive some of the exchanges coming into my mailbox has been to decide certain senders are not worth reading, and just delete them without ever opening them up. Thank you Al, once again you have summed it all up nicely. Terry * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at saltmine.com Wed Dec 2 13:26:47 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:26:47 -0800 Subject: Conversation is not a hockey game Message-ID: <01BE1DF7.6A3B9590.jmabel@saltmine.com> This is not to disagree with anything that's been said, but may I humbly suggest that we have now heard from enough people saying "be nice." I'm sure everyone either gets the message or will never get the message. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Mabel 206-284-7511 "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." L. Frank Baum * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ttrim at scn.org Wed Dec 2 13:20:12 1998 From: ttrim at scn.org (Terry Trimingham) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:20:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Conversation is not a hockey game In-Reply-To: <36658FD8.F8247F7D@scn.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Al Boss wrote: > --speaking for myself, if a conversation makes me mad, I > evaluate it and decide whether it's worth remaining in (and it usually > isn't). I agree 100%. Recent exchanges have tempted me not only to unsubscribe to the lists I am on, but to drop out of sight as an SCN volunteer. It doesn't matter if the topic includes reference to me or not, I don't want to be a part of it in any way. > So what? So this--if you're writing an e-mail or talking, it should be > because you have something to say. If your message isn't direct, it'll > be perceived by some as weak and they'll tune it out. If your message > is insulting or combatative, it'll be perceived by some as a waste of > their time and they'll tune it out. Either way, you don't accomplish > your task; the message isn't getting through. Once again, I agree. The only way I have learned to survive some of the exchanges coming into my mailbox has been to decide certain senders are not worth reading, and just delete them without ever opening them up. Thank you Al, once again you have summed it all up nicely. Terry * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Wed Dec 2 14:38:09 1998 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 14:38:09 -0800 Subject: Conversation is not a hockey game In-Reply-To: <36658FD8.F8247F7D@scn.org> References: <000401be1e14$d762ace0$62d608d0@grayfox.foxinternet.net> Message-ID: <9812022236.AB26622@redwood.rt.cs.boeing.com> In addition to agreeing with Al's very cogent (as always) summation, I'd also have to definitely agree with the equation Al = Trouble! 8-) Nice touch. -randy * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jdean at nwlink.com Wed Dec 2 19:25:15 1998 From: jdean at nwlink.com (jdean) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:25:15 -0800 Subject: In support of Sharma Message-ID: <003401be1e6c$9e49f1e0$0a0101c1@john-s-computer> Thesis: "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." - Thumper the Rabbit Antithesis: "If you can't say anything good about someone, sit right here by me." - Alice Roosevelt Longworth In my view Sharma is right; and her time is too important to waste for sport. John Dean * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Thu Dec 3 00:30:18 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:30:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sharma, Part 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sharma, Even if only 6 people are watching, I still think we are unearthing some things that need to be unearthed. One point I want to deal with straightaway is your repeated assertion that I am driving people away. To be blunt, YOUR board lost 20% of its membership due to dissatisfaction. I don't flatter myself that I could ever affect 20% of the SCN list users. So, between me and the board, the board has a much worse DOCUMENTED record for driving out previously interested people. So dump that complaint. First, it's vague. (Who? How many? Involved in what?) Second, you all do worse. If dissatisfying others is really a serious infraction, the board should be impeached. So, enough of that excuse for being mad at me. Now, to the insufficient time complaint. If a board member does not have time to do board-like stuff, that board member should resign. Not rocket science. So let's dump the I-didn't- have-enough-time excuse. However, it is true that there are serious demands on time and all of us realize that volunteers, (including board members) by definition, don't have the same amount of time as a paid worker. We are all fitting SCN into other lives. You are and it is to your credit. My limited knowledge of your goals suggests to me that your basic life style includes contributions to the community. Would that most people did the same. But we, the SCN users, do get to complain if EASY and/or ESSENTIAL jobs are not being done. Thus my strident complaints about the board (1) not instituting advance agenda notice (a pop quiz follows soon, so look out!); (2) not setting up universal SCNA voting; (3) not posting minutes on the web site. These items are ESSENTIAL to running a democratic organzation. Here's the quiz. If SCN(A) truly does not have the resources to do electronic voting, what is the alternative that gets the job done? (Pause to think ....) Answer: mail-in ballots! Ta DA. Along with a pre-election fundraising mailing (to SCNA members), we include ballots. Allow the return time to span a week. Bingo! Near universal voting is accomplished. (I expect a resounding chorus of "Brilliant!" "Bravo!" "Swell job!" from all of you who are dedicated to positive communication.) The point is, I don't accept your characterization that I am pushing just a personal agenda and that I am insisting on impossible accomplishments. Also, it's been months since those things were suggested to the board. March April May June July August September So I am not unreasonable in pushing these things. My question is: Why is there any resistence to the implementation to these things....unless, .....unless, ....unless these sorts of things are not important to the board. Enough for now. More later, ..... perhaps. Keep blasting, but direct a little of it at your colleagues. (Your calm, collegial, cooperative approach has not pushed them to act.) Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Thu Dec 3 00:37:06 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:37:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Discussion: Sharma and Rich In-Reply-To: <000401be1e14$d762ace0$62d608d0@grayfox.foxinternet.net> Message-ID: Ken, I would have wished that your included some element of the lack of doable and essential tasks in your comment. If your are saying, everybody shut up, my reply is, sorry. If your are saying this issue discussion could be done differently, then show us the way. Issues Is universal voting important? Why hasn't it been established? Is advance notice to the members of board discussions important? Why hasn't it been established? Is posting board minutes important? Etc. Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Thu Dec 3 00:49:00 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:49:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Conversation is not a hockey game In-Reply-To: <36658FD8.F8247F7D@scn.org> Message-ID: Al, As usual, excellent words. But, when are all you civil types going to push for some of these doable, important things. Universal voting. Advance notice of board agendas. After all that's said and done, a lot more is said than done. Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From alboss at scn.org Thu Dec 3 10:04:58 1998 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 10:04:58 -0800 Subject: doable, important things References: Message-ID: <3666D2CA.9061D3AE@scn.org> Rich Littleton wrote: > > ... when are all you civil types going to push for some of these > doable, important things. > > Universal voting. > Advance notice of board agendas. The world is full of simple answers to complex questions. However, most of them are wrong. There may be good reasons why we haven't already seen answers to your questions, Rich. I don't know. I'll look into whether there's anything I can do to help make these happen. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Thu Dec 3 13:44:33 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 13:44:33 -0800 Subject: Board minutes In-Reply-To: <3666D2CA.9061D3AE@scn.org> Message-ID: <199812032157.NAA08431@scn.org> Rich wrote: > ... when are all you civil types going to push for some of these > doable, important things. Hey, I just had a brainstorm! :) Rich, why not attend the Board meetings as an observer, then post the minutes yourself? At the same time, you could follow up on these outstanding items and include updates in the minutes, thus killing approx 2.67 birds with one stone!? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From grayfox at foxinternet.net Thu Dec 3 17:05:29 1998 From: grayfox at foxinternet.net (Kenneth Crandall) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:05:29 -0800 Subject: Discussion: Sharma and Rich In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201be1f22$2f17f180$93d408d0@grayfox.foxinternet.net> Rich, I can not speak to the issue of "doable" and "essential" tasks as I have not examined what would be required to accomplish any of the items that you have mentioned. I would assume that your proposed items are among the many items that are proposed for action for SCN volunteers. Before is possible to determine what is "essential", it is necessary to understand all outstanding proposals. I would assume that priority goes to those tasks necessary for day-to-day operation. Once a task has been identified as "Essential" or "Important", a strategy for accomplishing the task must be established (by the committee who would have to implement?). Some tasks may prove difficult, excessively expensive, or impossible. I believe that I have read that the board is working on the advance agenda. This should be possible for most items but I wouldn't be surprised if several items are proposed immediately prior to the meeting. These would not be part of an advanced agenda. Would the board then be accused of hiding agenda items? I would assume that the board minutes (if they are taken at all) are terse (they would be if I had to take them). If they are taken, they should be available for the membership at some location. I have not promoted silence. I have promoted "rational" discussion. I have sat on volunteer boards. All ideas are "essential" to the promoters, but not all ideas can be accomplished (too many or not possible). The questions I would be asking would deal with the processes used to establish priorities for proposed ideas and the methodology used to determine feasibility of proposed system changes. If these processes are lacking I would argue (rationally) for their adoption based upon the merits that without these processes rational action can't be determined. If the processes are in place, I would ask how they were applied to my projects. Ken Crandall bd252 at scn.org > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Rich > Littleton > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 12:37 AM > To: Kenneth Crandall > Cc: Sharma; scna-board at scn.org; scn at scn.org; bb140 at scn.org > Subject: RE: Discussion: Sharma and Rich > > > > Ken, > > I would have wished that your included some element of the lack of doable > and essential tasks in your comment. > > If your are saying, everybody shut up, my reply is, sorry. If your are > saying this issue discussion could be done differently, then show us the > way. > > Issues > Is universal voting important? Why hasn't it been established? > Is advance notice to the members of board discussions important? Why > hasn't it been established? > Is posting board minutes important? Etc. > > Later, > > Rich > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at saltmine.com Thu Dec 3 17:30:55 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:30:55 -0800 Subject: Discussion: Sharma and Rich Message-ID: <01BE1EE2.AF3A0550.jmabel@saltmine.com> 1) I'm not going to attack or defend anyone's style of email 2) It seems reasonable that a member might ask the board to make a good faith effort to post agendas before board meetings and minutes afterwards. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Crandall [SMTP:grayfox at foxinternet.net] Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 5:05 PM To: Rich Littleton Cc: Sharma; scna-board at scn.org; scn at scn.org; bb140 at scn.org Subject: RE: Discussion: Sharma and Rich Rich, I can not speak to the issue of "doable" and "essential" tasks as I have not examined what would be required to accomplish any of the items that you have mentioned. I would assume that your proposed items are among the many items that are proposed for action for SCN volunteers. Before is possible to determine what is "essential", it is necessary to understand all outstanding proposals. I would assume that priority goes to those tasks necessary for day-to-day operation. Once a task has been identified as "Essential" or "Important", a strategy for accomplishing the task must be established (by the committee who would have to implement?). Some tasks may prove difficult, excessively expensive, or impossible. I believe that I have read that the board is working on the advance agenda. This should be possible for most items but I wouldn't be surprised if several items are proposed immediately prior to the meeting. These would not be part of an advanced agenda. Would the board then be accused of hiding agenda items? I would assume that the board minutes (if they are taken at all) are terse (they would be if I had to take them). If they are taken, they should be available for the membership at some location. I have not promoted silence. I have promoted "rational" discussion. I have sat on volunteer boards. All ideas are "essential" to the promoters, but not all ideas can be accomplished (too many or not possible). The questions I would be asking would deal with the processes used to establish priorities for proposed ideas and the methodology used to determine feasibility of proposed system changes. If these processes are lacking I would argue (rationally) for their adoption based upon the merits that without these processes rational action can't be determined. If the processes are in place, I would ask how they were applied to my projects. Ken Crandall bd252 at scn.org > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Rich > Littleton > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 12:37 AM > To: Kenneth Crandall > Cc: Sharma; scna-board at scn.org; scn at scn.org; bb140 at scn.org > Subject: RE: Discussion: Sharma and Rich > > > > Ken, > > I would have wished that your included some element of the lack of doable > and essential tasks in your comment. > > If your are saying, everybody shut up, my reply is, sorry. If your are > saying this issue discussion could be done differently, then show us the > way. > > Issues > Is universal voting important? Why hasn't it been established? > Is advance notice to the members of board discussions important? Why > hasn't it been established? > Is posting board minutes important? Etc. > > Later, > > Rich > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From grayfox at foxinternet.net Fri Dec 4 08:49:30 1998 From: grayfox at foxinternet.net (Kenneth Crandall) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:49:30 -0800 Subject: Discussion: Sharma and Rich In-Reply-To: <01BE1EE2.AF3A0550.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: <000901be1fa6$10138720$95b61ad0@grayfox.foxinternet.net> Joe, I agree with your comments. I do believe that the style of request can have some impact on it implementation. If the member suggests that making the agenda and minutes available with spark more interest and understanding among the members, the request will likely be acted upon. If the member suggests that the agenda and minutes are required because the membership can't trust the board to conduct their business fairly, the request will not be as willingly accepted. I am not trying to infer that either scenario above applies in this instance, but simply am trying to show that the civility of communication can affect the outcome of a request. Your use of "a good faith request" is an example of a request that should receive a positive response. Ken C > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at saltmine.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 5:31 PM > To: 'Kenneth Crandall'; Rich Littleton > Cc: Sharma; scna-board at scn.org; scn at scn.org; bb140 at scn.org > Subject: RE: Discussion: Sharma and Rich > > > 1) I'm not going to attack or defend anyone's style of email > 2) It seems reasonable that a member might ask the board to make a good > faith effort to post agendas before board meetings and minutes afterwards. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From crystalb at scn.org Sat Dec 5 09:04:26 1998 From: crystalb at scn.org (Crystal Bishop) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 09:04:26 -0800 Subject: Board minutes Message-ID: <199812051711.JAA04696@scn.org> Jumping in... (glub, glub) This response in offensive to me - I HOPE that this is a tongue in cheek answer to a serious request. A member, served by a Board, should not be required to attend a Board meeting to find out what has occured at said meeting, much less be asked to perform a function that all Boards should have integral to their operations! ---------- >From: "Steve" >To: scn at scn.org >Subject: Board minutes >Date: Thu, Dec 3, 1998, 1:44 PM > >Rich wrote: >> ... when are all you civil types going to push for some of these >> doable, important things. > >Hey, I just had a brainstorm! :) > >Rich, why not attend the Board meetings as an observer, then post the >minutes yourself? At the same time, you could follow up on these >outstanding items and include updates in the minutes, thus killing >approx 2.67 birds with one stone!? >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * >. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: >majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: >unsubscribe scn >==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== >* * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Sat Dec 5 09:43:44 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:43:44 -0800 Subject: Board minutes Message-ID: <199812051752.JAA12567@scn.org> Actually, my response was at least half serious. I don't see the Board as servants of the members. They're volunteers, same as everyone else, with finite time and energy. And I didn't notice any vast surplus of candidates for these coveted Board positions. If a user/member can help out by posting minutes or whatever, why not? ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "Crystal Bishop" Jumping in... (glub, glub) This response in offensive to me - I HOPE that this is a tongue in cheek answer to a serious request. A member, served by a Board, should not be required to attend a Board meeting to find out what has occured at said meeting, much less be asked to perform a function that all Boards should have integral to their operations! > Rich, why not attend the Board meetings as an observer, then post > the minutes yourself? At the same time, you could follow up on > these outstanding items and include updates in the minutes, thus > killing approx 2.67 birds with one stone!? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From femme2 at scn.org Sat Dec 5 12:31:47 1998 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 12:31:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Board minutes In-Reply-To: <199812051752.JAA12567@scn.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Steve wrote: > Actually, my response was at least half serious. I don't see the > Board as servants of the members. They're volunteers, same as > everyone else, with finite time and energy. And I didn't notice any > vast surplus of candidates for these coveted Board positions. If a > user/member can help out by posting minutes or whatever, why not? > Because being a board member SHOULD mean taking board responsibilities seriously. Until that happens (and I'm told things have improved over the past few months -- should we thank Rich?), then I don't think competent people are going to be willing to serve. If you recall, Rich withdrew his candidacy in the best interests of the organization. We don't know if he would have done a good job as a board member -- but I do think he is sincere in wanting to make positive changes in SCNA. I don't think stepping in as de facto secretary would be a good move -- for Rich or for the organization. Lorraine femme2 at scn.org > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > > From: "Crystal Bishop" > > > Jumping in... (glub, glub) > > This response in offensive to me - I HOPE that this is a tongue in > cheek answer to a serious request. > > A member, served by a Board, should not be required to attend a > Board meeting to find out what has occured at said meeting, much less > be asked to perform a function that all Boards should have integral > to their operations! > > > Rich, why not attend the Board meetings as an observer, then post > > the minutes yourself? At the same time, you could follow up on > > these outstanding items and include updates in the minutes, thus > > killing approx 2.67 birds with one stone!? > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From femme2 at scn.org Sun Dec 6 09:02:14 1998 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 09:02:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Time for a Little Reflection Message-ID: Sony's chairman Asai Tawara said, "We intend to capture the high ground by putting a human, Japanese face on what has been, until now, an operating system that reflects Western cultural hegemony. For example, we have replaced the usual impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft error messages with our own Japanese haiku poetry." The chairman went on to give examples of Sony's new error messages: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Chaos reigns within. Reflect, repent, and reboot. Order shall return. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - A file that big? It might be very useful. But now it is gone. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Web site you seek cannot be located but endless others exist - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ABORTED effort: Close all that you have. You ask way too much. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - First snow, then silence. This thousand dollar screen dies so beautifully. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - With searching comes loss and the presence of absence: "My Novel" not found. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Tao that is seen Is not the true Tao, until You bring fresh toner. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Windows NT crashed. I am the Blue Screen of Death. No one hears your screams. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Stay the patient course Of little worth is your ire The network is down - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - A crash reduces your expensive computer to a simple stone. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Yesterday it worked Today it is not working Windows is like that - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Three things are certain: Death, taxes, and lost data. Guess which has occurred. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - You step in the stream, but the water has moved on. This page is not here. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Having been erased, The document you're seeking Must now be retyped. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Rather than a beep Or a rude error message, These words: "File not found." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Serious error. All shortcuts have disappeared. Screen. Mind. Both are blank. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Out of memory. We wish to hold the whole sky, But we never will. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ________________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo at nwlink.com The body of message should read: unsubscribe nwr-list my at email.address ________________________________________________________________________________ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Mon Dec 7 00:24:59 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 00:24:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Board minutes In-Reply-To: <199812051752.JAA12567@scn.org> Message-ID: Steve, Welcome to the discussion you triggered. While volunteering to help the volunteers is nice, it misses the point. Those tasks are part of what the board members stepped forward to do. If they can arrange assistance, that is great. If not, the tasks still have to be done. By the way, old chum, how about YOU doing the minutes? Hmmmmmm, I like your idea even better with that provision. (-: Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Steve wrote: > Actually, my response was at least half serious. I don't see the > Board as servants of the members. They're volunteers, same as > everyone else, with finite time and energy. And I didn't notice any > vast surplus of candidates for these coveted Board positions. If a > user/member can help out by posting minutes or whatever, why not? > > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > > From: "Crystal Bishop" > > > Jumping in... (glub, glub) > > This response in offensive to me - I HOPE that this is a tongue in > cheek answer to a serious request. > > A member, served by a Board, should not be required to attend a > Board meeting to find out what has occured at said meeting, much less > be asked to perform a function that all Boards should have integral > to their operations! > > > Rich, why not attend the Board meetings as an observer, then post > > the minutes yourself? At the same time, you could follow up on > > these outstanding items and include updates in the minutes, thus > > killing approx 2.67 birds with one stone!? > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Mon Dec 7 00:54:35 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 00:54:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Board minutes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well said, Lorraine. Good input. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Steve wrote: > > > Actually, my response was at least half serious. I don't see the > > Board as servants of the members. They're volunteers, same as > > everyone else, with finite time and energy. And I didn't notice any > > vast surplus of candidates for these coveted Board positions. If a > > user/member can help out by posting minutes or whatever, why not? > > > Because being a board member SHOULD mean taking board responsibilities > seriously. Until that happens (and I'm told things have improved > over the past few months -- should we thank Rich?), then I don't > think competent people are going to be willing to serve. > > If you recall, Rich withdrew his candidacy in the best interests > of the organization. We don't know if he would have done a good > job as a board member -- but I do think he is sincere in wanting > to make positive changes in SCNA. I don't think stepping in as > de facto secretary would be a good move -- for Rich or for the > organization. > > Lorraine > femme2 at scn.org > > > > > > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > > > > From: "Crystal Bishop" > > > > > > Jumping in... (glub, glub) > > > > This response in offensive to me - I HOPE that this is a tongue in > > cheek answer to a serious request. > > > > A member, served by a Board, should not be required to attend a > > Board meeting to find out what has occured at said meeting, much less > > be asked to perform a function that all Boards should have integral > > to their operations! > > > > > Rich, why not attend the Board meetings as an observer, then post > > > the minutes yourself? At the same time, you could follow up on > > > these outstanding items and include updates in the minutes, thus > > > killing approx 2.67 birds with one stone!? > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at saltmine.com Mon Dec 7 08:57:30 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:57:30 -0800 Subject: No Pissing Matches, please Message-ID: <01BE21BF.9FE92740.jmabel@saltmine.com> Last week I sent an email to Rich L. in an effort to discuss how he might get his points across while causing less offense. Much of my email consisted of my paraphrase of an earlier email of Rich's. I myself do not necessarily agree with everything here (although I agree with a lot of it). I originally sent this message only to Rich. He has emailed me back saying I am free to post it. I have edited out some remarks directed specifically to Rich about my disagreements with his style. The following is the paraphrase. I have included Rich's original email for reference SCNA is declining in membership. May I suggest that the board is more to blame for this than I? Please don't fob it off on me. I am saying that easy, essential work is not getting done. If the board doesn't have time to do it, we have the wrong board. However, it is true that there are serious demands on time and all of us realize that volunteers, (including board members) by definition, don't have the same amount of time as a paid worker. We are all fitting SCN into other lives. You are and it is to your credit. My limited knowledge of your goals suggests to me that your basic life style includes contributions to the community. Would that most people did the same. But we, the SCN users, do get to complain if EASY and/or ESSENTIAL jobs are not being done. (1) There is no good reason for the board not to institute advance agenda notice. (2) If electronic voting is too tough to implement (which surprises me) how about some form of mail-in ballot? (2) There is no good reason for the board not to post minutes on the web site. These items are ESSENTIAL to running a democratic organzation. I don't accept your characterization that I am pushing just a personal agenda and that I am insisting on impossible accomplishments. Also, it's been six months since those things were suggested to the board. I have become skeptical about whether this is simply a matter of technical difficulties. It looks to me like organizational democracy is not a priority for the board. The remainder of this is Rich's original message. -----Original Message----- From: Rich Littleton [SMTP:be718 at scn.org] Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 12:30 AM To: Sharma Cc: scna-board at scn.org; scn at scn.org; bb140 at scn.org Subject: Sharma, Part 2 Sharma, Even if only 6 people are watching, I still think we are unearthing some things that need to be unearthed. One point I want to deal with straightaway is your repeated assertion that I am driving people away. To be blunt, YOUR board lost 20% of its membership due to dissatisfaction. I don't flatter myself that I could ever affect 20% of the SCN list users. So, between me and the board, the board has a much worse DOCUMENTED record for driving out previously interested people. So dump that complaint. First, it's vague. (Who? How many? Involved in what?) Second, you all do worse. If dissatisfying others is really a serious infraction, the board should be impeached. So, enough of that excuse for being mad at me. Now, to the insufficient time complaint. If a board member does not have time to do board-like stuff, that board member should resign. Not rocket science. So let's dump the I-didn't- have-enough-time excuse. However, it is true that there are serious demands on time and all of us realize that volunteers, (including board members) by definition, don't have the same amount of time as a paid worker. We are all fitting SCN into other lives. You are and it is to your credit. My limited knowledge of your goals suggests to me that your basic life style includes contributions to the community. Would that most people did the same. But we, the SCN users, do get to complain if EASY and/or ESSENTIAL jobs are not being done. Thus my strident complaints about the board (1) not instituting advance agenda notice (a pop quiz follows soon, so look out!); (2) not setting up universal SCNA voting; (3) not posting minutes on the web site. These items are ESSENTIAL to running a democratic organzation. Here's the quiz. If SCN(A) truly does not have the resources to do electronic voting, what is the alternative that gets the job done? (Pause to think ....) Answer: mail-in ballots! Ta DA. Along with a pre-election fundraising mailing (to SCNA members), we include ballots. Allow the return time to span a week. Bingo! Near universal voting is accomplished. (I expect a resounding chorus of "Brilliant!" "Bravo!" "Swell job!" from all of you who are dedicated to positive communication.) The point is, I don't accept your characterization that I am pushing just a personal agenda and that I am insisting on impossible accomplishments. Also, it's been months since those things were suggested to the board. March April May June July August September So I am not unreasonable in pushing these things. My question is: Why is there any resistence to the implementation to these things....unless, .....unless, ....unless these sorts of things are not important to the board. Enough for now. More later, ..... perhaps. Keep blasting, but direct a little of it at your colleagues. (Your calm, collegial, cooperative approach has not pushed them to act.) Later, Rich * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From grayfox at foxinternet.net Mon Dec 7 11:07:58 1998 From: grayfox at foxinternet.net (Kenneth Crandall) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:07:58 -0800 Subject: Advance agenda's and meeting minutes. Message-ID: <000001be2214$e7ae4240$8ab61ad0@grayfox.foxinternet.net> I have become involved in this discussion thru the back door. I was commenting on the civility of communications when I was challenged to consider the issue of "doable" items that were not being accomplished. Therefore I will share my thoughts on a couple of the items being discussed. I happen to believe that an agenda and minutes are necessary for an orderly accomplishment of business. I also believe that an advanced notice of the agenda would spark more interest in the general membership about the day-to-day operation of SCN. I recognize that some agenda items do not come forth until just before the meeting, but most items should be available ahead of time. Establishing the policy of publishing an advanced agenda would help to insure that those who wanted to be assured of being on the agenda would make earlier requests. A policy that would not allow implementation of added agenda items (except for emergency items) would further help insure early requests for inclusion on the agenda. Following the meeting, a revised agenda, reflecting last minute additions, and a brief set of minutes would let the membership know what is happening. Understanding the day-to-day issues being faced by SCN might increase the number of people volunteering for tasks that they can identify with or might increase the contributions as needs are clearly defined. I therefore believe that the above requests are in the best interest of activating the membership. Ken Crandall (bd252 at scn.org) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From be718 at scn.org Tue Dec 8 00:23:20 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:23:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Advance agenda's and meeting minutes. In-Reply-To: <000001be2214$e7ae4240$8ab61ad0@grayfox.foxinternet.net> Message-ID: Very well said, Ken. You also made a good case for your "tone" argument. Thanks. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From spt at scn.org Tue Dec 8 17:26:04 1998 From: spt at scn.org (Seattle Public Theater) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:26:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: JOBOP Connectivity Specialist (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:17:48 -0800 (PST) From: 915603 at candseek.com To: spt at scn.org Subject: JOBOP Connectivity Specialist Since your email address was listed on a related web site page or database, I thought you might help. I am seeking an individual within the following conditions: I represent a market leader in the design, development, manufacturing and integration of medical imaging systems located in New Jersey. We are seeking a Connectivity Specialist with experience troubleshooting network problems in a Unix/Solaris environment. Hired candidate shall be part of a dynamic team working on the forefront of Medical Imaging technology . 2+ years as a Unix Administrator or DBA in a Unix/Solaris Environment is desired. Additional experience with any of the following is a plus: Oracle, tcp/ip, shell scripting, C++,DICOM or PACS. I can offer a competitive salary ($70,000) and comprehensive benefits and outstanding security, growth and the opportunity to learn new technologies. Geographic Location of Position: Northern New Jersey If you know anyone that might be interested, please forward this to them or contact: Louis Carlson Diedre Moire Corp., Inc. Voice: 609-584-1601 Fax: 609-584-9575 Email: 915603 at candseek.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org Tue Dec 8 21:29:02 1998 From: kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org (Kurt Cockrum) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:29:02 -0800 Subject: No Pissing Matches, please Message-ID: <199812090529.VAA16058@grogatch.seaslug.org> On Thursday, December 03, 1998 12:30 AM Rich said, as quoted by Joe Mabel: >[...] >(2) If electronic voting is too tough to implement (which surprises me) how >about some form of mail-in ballot? >[...] I wouldn't be in such a hurry to implement electronic voting methods. A "voting program" is relatively easy to do, as long as it isn't used as a tool to decide high-stake matters. The BBmenu software already has voting software present. Early on in the scn project, I visited the cleveland freenet and saw theirs in action. It was rather amusing, but I quail at the thought of such software being used to count the votes in a hotly contested election. To bring it home, a hotly contested SCNA board election. I don't know what it would take to convince me that I should respect the results of such an election, besides superior firepower. And I don't even wanna *think* about the security issues! Talk about a quagmire! I think high-stakes voting should be done in an "all-meat" environment, not inside a computer. Voting software might be useful for "pulse-taking" and demographic purposes, but it's just like a spring scale, i. e. not legal in trade. Or it should'nt be. I'm also worried about the "instant-results" aspects of electronic voting. Superficially, it looks like a real aid to democracy. But there's a deliberative aspect to democracy that in real life, would simply be sacrificed to give the illusion of "universal participation", IMO. The deliberative part served as a "low-pass" filter that limits large and wild excursions in policy over short periods of time, what we might expect if we had "instant democracy". The argument that this disenfranchises the impatient just doesn't cut it IMO. These are problems common to all systems that crucially depend on feedback with time-constants. Mess with the time-constants and the system falters or dies, or goes into a chaotic mode. A real-world example is "just-in-time" inventory systems, which function well only in perfectly harmonious conditions, i. e. they lack all robustness, which has been exploited to advantage by the labor movement in some cases (yay!); JIT systems are very vulnerable to strikes as some nasty corporations are finding out these days... So we ought to be real careful whenever something looks good just because it happens faster. Not only does the speed-up make things worse, but there are other zero-summish trade-offs (like reliability, security) that might be unacceptable. But I don't think a real and sustainable electronic democracy could exist unless the auditing and integrity-monitoring tools were available to, and *used* by everyone, not just the people that do the election, the cops and policy-makers. It would have to be a *lot* better designed than any internet protocol I ever heard of. See, the thing about *real* democracy is, ya gotta RTFM. :) Do secure electronic voting protocols exist? I imagine that they might be related to the double-blinding techniques used in clinical studies, to minimize observer biasing effects in statistical analysis. Maybe some Electronic Democracy (or Demarchy?) Foundation could come up with a Beowulf-style distributed voting application and put it under a GPL :) Don't know if I'd trust it, though. It's important to remember that democracy is a different kind of problem than protecting data from snoopers, or making sure it hasn't been messed with. I think a lot of policy-makers have failed to understand this, or have ignored it for political advantage. I recommend the book Jacobs, Jane Systems of Survival: A Dialogue on the Moral Foundations of Commerce and Politics ISBN 0-394-55079-X [hc; also in a Basic Books pb ed] 92-50157 HF5387.J32 1992 for insights on the general subject. Comments from readers of the book welcome. --kurt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at saltmine.com Wed Dec 9 09:04:51 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:04:51 -0800 Subject: No Pissing Matches, please Message-ID: <01BE2352.FB682730.jmabel@saltmine.com> Kurt's thoughts on voting strike me as mostly on the mark. Still, it seems to me that if the State of Washington has been able to tremendously increase voter participation by easing the rules on absentee ballots, we ought to consider whether there are places in our system where the same might be appropriate. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Mabel 206-284-7511 "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." L. Frank Baum * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From grayfox at foxinternet.net Wed Dec 9 09:26:50 1998 From: grayfox at foxinternet.net (Kenneth Crandall) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:26:50 -0800 Subject: No Pissing Matches, please In-Reply-To: <199812090529.VAA16058@grogatch.seaslug.org> Message-ID: <000701be2399$1ad83ce0$b6b61ad0@grayfox.foxinternet.net> Hi Kurt, You have listed your misgivings toward electronic voting. What about the other idea of mail-in ballot. That has been used successfully in our election process. Ken Crandall > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Kurt > Cockrum > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 9:29 PM > To: scn at scn.org > Cc: jmabel at saltmine.com; kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org; scna-board at scn.org > Subject: Re: No Pissing Matches, please > > > On Thursday, December 03, 1998 12:30 AM Rich said, as quoted by Joe Mabel: > >[...] > >(2) If electronic voting is too tough to implement (which > surprises me) how > >about some form of mail-in ballot? > >[...] > > I wouldn't be in such a hurry to implement electronic voting methods. > A "voting program" is relatively easy to do, as long as it isn't used as > a tool to decide high-stake matters. > > The BBmenu software already has voting software present. Early on > in the scn project, I visited the cleveland freenet and saw > theirs in action. > It was rather amusing, but I quail at the thought of such > software being used > to count the votes in a hotly contested election. To bring it home, a > hotly contested SCNA board election. > > I don't know what it would take to convince me that I should > respect the results > of such an election, besides superior firepower. And I don't even wanna > *think* about the security issues! Talk about a quagmire! > > I think high-stakes voting should be done in an "all-meat" > environment, not > inside a computer. Voting software might be useful for "pulse-taking" > and demographic purposes, but it's just like a spring scale, i. > e. not legal > in trade. Or it should'nt be. > > I'm also worried about the "instant-results" aspects of electronic voting. > Superficially, it looks like a real aid to democracy. But there's a > deliberative aspect to democracy that in real life, would simply > be sacrificed > to give the illusion of "universal participation", IMO. The > deliberative part > served as a "low-pass" filter that limits large and wild > excursions in policy over > short periods of time, what we might expect if we had "instant democracy". > The argument that this disenfranchises the impatient just doesn't > cut it IMO. > > These are problems common to all systems that crucially depend on > feedback with > time-constants. Mess with the time-constants and the system > falters or dies, or > goes into a chaotic mode. > > A real-world example is "just-in-time" inventory systems, which > function well > only in perfectly harmonious conditions, i. e. they lack all > robustness, which > has been exploited to advantage by the labor movement in some > cases (yay!); > JIT systems are very vulnerable to strikes as some nasty > corporations are finding > out these days... > > So we ought to be real careful whenever something looks good just > because it > happens faster. Not only does the speed-up make things worse, > but there are > other zero-summish trade-offs (like reliability, security) that > might be unacceptable. > > But I don't think a real and sustainable electronic democracy > could exist unless > the auditing and integrity-monitoring tools were available to, > and *used* by everyone, > not just the people that do the election, the cops and > policy-makers. It would have > to be a *lot* better designed than any internet protocol I ever heard of. > > See, the thing about *real* democracy is, ya gotta RTFM. :) > > Do secure electronic voting protocols exist? I imagine that they might be > related to the double-blinding techniques used in clinical > studies, to minimize > observer biasing effects in statistical analysis. > > Maybe some Electronic Democracy (or Demarchy?) Foundation could come up > with a Beowulf-style distributed voting application and put it > under a GPL :) > Don't know if I'd trust it, though. > > It's important to remember that > democracy is a different kind of problem than protecting data from > snoopers, or making sure it hasn't been messed with. I think a lot of > policy-makers have failed to understand this, or have ignored it > for political > advantage. > > I recommend the book > Jacobs, Jane > Systems of Survival: A Dialogue on the Moral Foundations of > Commerce and Politics > ISBN 0-394-55079-X [hc; also in a Basic Books pb ed] > 92-50157 > HF5387.J32 1992 > for insights on the general subject. Comments from readers of > the book welcome. > --kurt > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From janossz at scn.org Wed Dec 9 20:07:07 1998 From: janossz at scn.org (Janos Szablya) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:07:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: No Pissing Matches, please In-Reply-To: <01BE2352.FB682730.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: The vote in the United States as a whole...... 1. Is not a process that is "fair"... one person does not always get one vote. 2. The use of absentee ballots has made it even easier for the "double" vote. I recommend that the process used not be linked to electronic means. Nor do I care for the mail although it is better, more checks and balances. Physical voting is always best..... even though I know that the chances of me being at the site of the vote is very rare because of my schedule. I do have enough faith in those around me to know that they will always act in what they (and hopefully me) belive is right. Janos * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From gtruzzi at scn.org Wed Dec 9 20:44:19 1998 From: gtruzzi at scn.org (Gianni Truzzi) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 20:44:19 -0800 Subject: Communication and Participation Message-ID: <366F51A3.5BED@scn.org> SCN Volunteers: At the last meeting of the Board of Directors, I was privileged to be elected President of SCNA. I am honored to serve in this office, and look forward to working with the rest of the Board and all of the volunteers that continue to help SCN going strong after five years of being online! There has been a lot of traffic of late on these lists concerning the Board. I recognize that we have not always been as responsive as we might, or as visible as we ought. It has been one of my priorities to improve communication between the Board and the SCNA membership, and we are making some initial moves in that direction. We are currently working on the getting the minutes of our last meeting finalized and posted. I am hopeful that we can make this a simple and regular process. Making the agenda of Board meetings is my responsibility, and I am committed to doing this in advance and having it available. None of our past failures represent any contempt for the membership. They reflect only a small collection of volunteers who (like all of you) are trying to fit our duties for SCNA into busy lives. Our good intentions often get the better of us, as each person takes on more than they can really handle. We appreciate your service given to this endeavor, and hope you will acknowledge ours. Board meetings are primarily for the Board members to do their work; to exchange information and make decisions. The meeting is open to any public observer, and all are welcome. Members can request to address the board, to present proposals, and must be present at the meeting to make their presentation. You can direct such a request to me, and you will be given a place on the agenda. For quick questions, there will always be a brief space reserved at the end of the meeting for public comment. The Board of Directors meets quarterly beginning next year. The next meeting will be on January 13th, with following meetings on the 2nd Wednesday of April, July and October. In between each of these meetings, the board members works in smaller subcommittees. Most of the work of SCNA, however, is done within the at-large volunteer committees. These are the places for ideas to be raised, projects to be suggested and developed. Committee chairs are given wide discretion in the ongoing management of SCN, and are empowered to bring issues to the other committees and the Board. The purpose of this structure is to give the volunteers the power to decide what we do and how we do it. That also means a lot of responsibility to carry through on ideas that a volunteer comes up with, and to build consensus to get it done. It is the responsibility of the Board to help these activities get the resources they need, and make sure they are consistent with our mission and policy. We have a lot of exciting things in the planning stages for 1999: offering Point-to-Point protocol services, Web-based e-mail, and revamped, expanded e-mail classes. I hope that all of our members and volunteers will avail themselves of the readily available opportunities to help chart the course of SCNA. Participation in committee meetings is essential, to build consensus for ideas and to exchange opinions. Online discussion is terrific for getting the ball rolling, but most decisions get made when we are face-to-face. In the meantime, I would like to foster better communication between the SCNA membership and its Board. I hope the steps we are already taking are a good beginning. I certainly welcome your ideas on how we can all work together more effectively. -- Gianni ============================================================= Gianni Truzzi gtruzzi at scn.org President, Seattle Community Network Assn. ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Wed Dec 9 23:03:49 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 23:03:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: No Pissing Matches, please In-Reply-To: <199812090529.VAA16058@grogatch.seaslug.org> Message-ID: Kurt, I'm now thoroughly confused. ______________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Kurt Cockrum wrote: > > I wouldn't be in such a hurry to implement electronic voting methods. > Talk about a quagmire! RL: I never did get the specific problem with electronic voting. You basically repeated that you didn't trust it, but gave no explanation. Specifically, what is the part of the voting software that is the weakness. Stephanie Banerian ran a bb voting session from SCN and it seemed to work fine. > > I think high-stakes voting should be done in an "all-meat" environment, not > inside a computer. RL: You haven't solved the serious barrier the travel requirement causes. Can you address that? Voting software might be useful for "pulse-taking" > and demographic purposes, but it's just like a spring scale, i. e. not legal > in trade. Or it should'nt be. RL: Again, you haven't explained. > > I'm also worried about the "instant-results" aspects of electronic voting. > Superficially, it looks like a real aid to democracy. But there's a > deliberative aspect to democracy that in real life, would simply be sacrificed > to give the illusion of "universal participation", IMO. The deliberative part > served as a "low-pass" filter that limits large and wild excursions in policy over > short periods of time, what we might expect if we had "instant democracy". I think the deliberative element is a spurious issue. If enough lead-time is provided for candidate statements and question answers, voting would be deliberative. You might be thinking in terms of the current process which has almost no communication with the candidates. This makes the voting night candidate presentation important. However, they are only 2-minute presentations. > The argument that this disenfranchises the impatient just doesn't cut it IMO. RL: Who made this argument? Can you send the quote? > > > A real-world example is "just-in-time" inventory systems, which function well > only in perfectly harmonious conditions, RL: I don't see the validity in your comparison with universal voting and JIT inventory. > > But I don't think a real and sustainable electronic democracy could exist unless > the auditing and integrity-monitoring tools were available to, and *used* by everyone, > not just the people that do the election, the cops and policy-makers. It would have > to be a *lot* better designed than any internet protocol I ever heard of. RL: This doesn't make sense to me. The elelction could be rigged as it is now, and you did not mention that. I would think the return address of the voter would be a reliable way to see that each SCNA member voter actually votes only once. If there is a security problem, please explain it in detail so we can run it by our technical persons. If there is validity to your concerns, then we can shift to the mail-in method. (Used by the State of Oregon and REI) In any case, we should never use the meeting-only voting method again. Rich > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Wed Dec 9 23:07:45 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 23:07:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Eudora In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alright, all. I expect to see a chorus of folks taking JJ's head off. Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, J. Johnson wrote: > > If you would read the Help menus you wouldn't have to ask--your question > is specifically covered. > > (Unless, of course, some idiot has presumed to "improve" things.) > > === JJ ================================================================= > > On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Barb Weismann wrote: > > > Dear Services: > > > > Can I use eudora with scn? with Pine? There isn't anything as far as I > > can tell, in the web site or e mial menu about using other e mail > > programs. > > > > Thanks, > > Barb > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe services > > END > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe services > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Wed Dec 9 23:13:57 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 23:13:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: No ***** Matches, please In-Reply-To: <01BE2352.FB682730.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: Joe, You're being entirely too nice here. We need to get more specifice from Kurt about the precise weak spots. Maybe they are fixable. Also, as I mentioned in an earlier reply, SCN's own Stefani Banerian has already run an election in a bulletin board. So, if her's worked then, what won't work for SCNA? BTW, can we adjust the "pissing match" wording. It is a tad crude, but, more importantly, it never seemed to acquire a clear meaning. ("Needless arguing," "any arguing," "hate mail" ??????) Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > Kurt's thoughts on voting strike me as mostly on the mark. Still, it seems > to me that if the State of Washington has been able to tremendously > increase voter participation by easing the rules on absentee ballots, we > ought to consider whether there are places in our system where the same > might be appropriate. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Joe Mabel > 206-284-7511 > "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." L. Frank Baum > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at aa.net Thu Dec 10 01:22:51 1998 From: sharma at aa.net (Sharma) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:22:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: No Pissing Matches, please In-Reply-To: <01BE2352.FB682730.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: For the last election a proxy form was available on the webpages for any member to copy, fill out, and either mail or fax in, or give to someone else with instructions on how to vote or to carry it to the meeting. A few members used it. Notification of the election and of the existence of the proxy was sent to every SCNA member in email. Cheers, -sharma On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > Kurt's thoughts on voting strike me as mostly on the mark. Still, it seems > to me that if the State of Washington has been able to tremendously > increase voter participation by easing the rules on absentee ballots, we > ought to consider whether there are places in our system where the same > might be appropriate. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Joe Mabel > 206-284-7511 > "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." L. Frank Baum > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > scna-board at scn.org For communication with members of the SCNA > Board of Directors. To unsubscribe, send a message to listowner > Stefani Banerian (banerian at scn.org) > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Thu Dec 10 06:26:15 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 06:26:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lack of proxy voting preparation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sharma wrote: > For the last election a proxy form was available on the webpages for any > member to copy, fill out, and either mail or fax in, or give to someone > else with instructions on how to vote or to carry it to the meeting. A few > members used it. Notification of the election and of the existence of the > proxy was sent to every SCNA member in email. Sharma, There were barriers there, that are worth noting. First, the form stated that to be valid, the user must write on the form the user's pass-phrase question from the user's original registration form. Even though I'd be able to give the answer to the question if asked, I've forgotten which question I supplied three years ago. If I'd wanted to send in a proxy, the form made it clear that my proxy would have been invalid without this. This is a good example of how to effectively discourage people from voting. Second, the proxy form was distributed online as an afterthought with almost no lead time before the election. As far as I know, there was no proxy ballot sent by U.S. Mail to all SCNA members, stacks of paper copies of the proxy form were not distributed at committee meetings, and so on. In other words, this was done in such a way that minimal results could have been expected by any neutral outside observer. Third, there was no attempt made to reach the membership to educate them beforehand about the proxy election process, for months beforehand, before the actual candidates were nominated, top make sure that everyone knew about proxy voting, was comfortable with exactly how it works, and had all their questions and doubts fully answered well in advance. In other words, proxy voting this year was something that the average SCNA members, if asked to explain, would likely respond by scratching his head or shrugging her shoulders and saying "Well, um, I'm not really sure." For next year, I'd like to suggest that we address these concerns in a more serious and well planned process. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ljbeedle at scn.org Thu Dec 10 07:59:14 1998 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:59:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: No Pissing Matches, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would be interested in how you arrived at these conclusions. I serve as an election offical and am most concerned at your conclusion that absentee balloting allows double voting. Also that one person does not always get one vote. On what is this information based? Lois On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Janos Szablya wrote: > > The vote in the United States as a whole...... > > 1. Is not a process that is "fair"... > one person does not always get one vote. > > 2. The use of absentee ballots has made it even easier for the "double" > vote. > > I recommend that the process used not be linked to electronic means. > > Nor do I care for the mail although it is better, more checks and > balances. > > Physical voting is always best..... even though I know that the chances of > me being at the site of the vote is very rare because of my schedule. I do > have enough faith in those around me to know that they will always act in > what they (and hopefully me) belive is right. > > Janos * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Thu Dec 10 12:56:32 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:56:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Communication and Participation In-Reply-To: <366F51A3.5BED@scn.org> Message-ID: On November 4, 1998, Gianni Wrote: > > Rich is correct that this request [advance notice of board agenda] has > been made before. We didn't ignore > it, we answered it. The answer was > "no." It's still "no," at least > about posting agendas in advance, > because we seldom have them drawn up > in advance. On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Gianni Truzzi wrote: > It has been one of my priorities to > improve communication between the Board and the SCNA membership, and we > are making some initial moves in that direction. > Making the agenda of Board meetings is my > responsibility, and I am committed to doing this in advance and having > it available. > ---------------- Rich Comments. This committment to posting the Board agenda in advance is an excellent shift in policy. Thanks. I think this is a fundamental element of communication with the SCNA membership. Good work, Gianni. Later, Rich * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org Thu Dec 10 16:24:25 1998 From: kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org (Kurt Cockrum) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:24:25 -0800 Subject: with this, my bladder's empty Message-ID: <199812110024.QAA14323@grogatch.seaslug.org> Rich said: >Kurt, I'm now thoroughly confused. But I'm not. Does this mean I've won the argument? :) >I never did get the specific problem with electronic voting. You >basically repeated that you didn't trust it, but gave no explanation. The problem isn't "specific", it's general, and rather abstract, and difficult to get across to non-computer folk. It's tough enough to discuss among colleagues. I wish CPSR was some help here, but they're not. Try explaining crytography to a lay person as an example. Old-fashioned voting systems have the advantage of operating under principles that are common knowledge; there are no "black-box" phenomena with an election system. All the parts are subject to scrutiny by people armed with common knowledge, and so can directly verify that things are as they appear. They don't have to be armed with years of experience in arcane subjects, as software people do. All they need is the native machinery most of us are born with, if it hasn't atrophied because of too much cultural immersion. It ain't rocket science. A computer is a system that runs on components that the average person thinks are magic, and presents the illusion of of reliability and transparency. I don't know how to state it any clearer than to say that all that transparency and reliability are purely illusory. Under the skin, the software is complex and arcane, not well understood by the authors, much less anybody else. Sorry, too much rocket science. The reliability we *do* get from computers is because the parts we see have been hammered on for many years by talented people (both good guys and bad guys), mostly working on free software (*not* commercial). The reliability has *emerged*, which is to say that it wan't there from the git-go, it had to evolve. Sure, design principles and good practice exist, but as we have seen, this isn't enough. Consider the filesystem on scn, for example. Election-management software would be easily as complex as a filesystem. Unix filesystems are, in general, highly reliable. People have investments of millions of $ in the data that resides in them, so there's been plenty of incentive to develop reliable software in that domain, and *lots* of people have worked on that software. If an election system could be as reliable as a filesystem, with repair and monitoring tools and the like, including built-in trust-enhancers, and check-and-balance-style decision-making, under the *control* of the users, I'd have a lot more confidence in the concept. This isn't to say it can't happen. I think it would be a worth-while project, if a good set of requirements and design could come up. Software like that, if it worked, could be as subversive against established orders as PGP, and so, for that reason alone, is worth supporting. But as it is, it's more like a topic for PhD candidates than a serious policy option for SCN. Or a candidate for a cooperative open software development effort, a la some of the Open Software efforts going on right now. I have no idea if any such thing exists. As to whether the election is conducted by mail-in ballot, or by having to be present at a meeting, well, I really don't care. I'm just against ill-advised leaps on technological bandwagons. And unless there's home-grown talent suitable for pioneering this, I'd say, give it a miss. Or wait for somebody to get inspired. >You haven't solved the serious barrier the travel requirement causes. Can >you address that? Yeah, I think it's pretty trivial. Consider trying to cross the freeway, or trying to escape from old East Germany. Now, those are what I call "serious barriers". The temporary inconvenience of an annual election pales by comparison, and I have trouble taking the concept seriously. >> A real-world example is "just-in-time" inventory systems, which function well >> only in perfectly harmonious conditions, > >RL: >I don't see the validity in your comparison with universal voting and JIT >inventory. I wasn't talking about "universal voting". I was talking about election management and likening the instabilities of a speeded-up democratic process to the difficulties with other hastily adopted time-saving management technologies. I can see where a lot of the heat is coming from if you misread what I said that badly. >In any case, we should never use the meeting-only voting method again. Well, mail-in absentee ballots seem to work reasonably well, at least for those who take the trouble to fill them out. I live in a precinct (White Center, "Heights" precinct) where all the registered voters (not many among the local populace) get absentee ballots because the KC election department thinks it's too expensive to set up polling places for that few voters. Absentee ballots are good for overworked people with little time. But take note that that's not the reason the KCED is doing this. I don't think absentee ballots or e-mail voting would work as a tool to get apathetic people to cast their votes because the act of voting is somehow brought below these people's threshold of action. If they stay away from "meat-world" polling-places, they'll stay away from the virtual ones, too. For election-management system horror stories and cautionary tales, take a look at the RISKS list, or browse their archives. Here's abridged blurb-info: The RISKS Forum is a MODERATED digest. Its Usenet equivalent is comp.risks. => SUBSCRIPTIONS: PLEASE read RISKS as a newsgroup (comp.risks or equivalent) if possible and convenient for you. Alternatively, via majordomo, SEND DIRECT E-MAIL REQUESTS to with one-line, SUBSCRIBE (or UNSUBSCRIBE) [with net address if different from FROM:] or INFO [for unabridged version of RISKS information] ... => ARCHIVES are available: ftp://ftp.sri.com/risks or ftp ftp.sri.comlogin anonymous[YourNetAddress]cd risks [volume-summary issues are in risks-*.00] [back volumes have their own subdirectories, e.g., "cd 19" for volume 19] or http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/VL.IS.html [i.e., VoLume, ISsue]. Indulge your schadenfreude over the morning coffee! Better than the morning paper! It's also pretty good for the occasional frisson up the spine. :) :) --kurt I found this quote in the blurb accompanying some Delaunay triangulation software from AT&T, apparently apropos an ancient language religious debate: I think the best way I've heard this put is "Pascal gives you a water pistol filled with distilled water. C not only gives you a loaded .357, it points it at your head as a default. Why do you think Pascal is taught in school? And which would you rather have when there was a hungry bear in the area?" --Jim Harkins I'd clobber the bear with Vols 1 & 2 of the Java Class library --kurt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From gtruzzi at scn.org Thu Dec 10 20:02:48 1998 From: gtruzzi at scn.org (Gianni Truzzi) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 20:02:48 -0800 Subject: Lack of proxy voting preparation References: Message-ID: <36709968.CF6@scn.org> Rod Clark wrote: > ... For next year, I'd like to > suggest that we address these concerns in a more serious and > well planned process. > > Rod Clark > No argument with that. We can and should do better. But I hope we get points for at least trying. At least the proxys were available, and that's more than last year. And next year we can apply what we learned. -- Gianni ============================================================= Gianni Truzzi gtruzzi at scn.org ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Thu Dec 10 23:02:07 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:02:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: with this, my bladder's empty In-Reply-To: <199812110024.QAA14323@grogatch.seaslug.org> Message-ID: To all readers: (from Rich) Kurt sent this extended reply to my requesting clarification of his statement that e-voting is risky. My understanding of Kurt's message is: 1. E-voting software is not used much; 2. This software might have glitches in it; and 3. It would take heavy use/testing to be sure it was safe; Read it to see if that's what it says to you. However, I'd take the position that we should use the software Stefani Banerian has already used to run e-voting. Only if it is shown to have the glitches, then we would drop it. Test We could do some test elections by (a) having idenfied testers (20?) do a dummy vote; and (b) check the reliability. IF this is not suitable, let's do the mail-in ballots. Kurt's right, that those who attend the annual meeting are GENERALLY the most ardent SCNA members. But, (1) that is not 100% true, because some people just can't make it. (2)if enthusiasm were the basis for SCNA voting rights, we could give each SCNA member one vote for each hour of volunteering thus giving the more enthusiastic more voting power. (BAD IDEA!!! JUST JOKING!!!) Let's make it reasonably convenient for all SCNA members to vote. --- Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Kurt Cockrum wrote: > Rich said: > >Kurt, I'm now thoroughly confused. > > But I'm not. Does this mean I've won the argument? :) > > >I never did get the specific problem with electronic voting. You > >basically repeated that you didn't trust it, but gave no explanation. > > The problem isn't "specific", it's general, and rather abstract, and > difficult to get across to non-computer folk. It's tough enough to > discuss among colleagues. I wish CPSR was some help here, but they're > not. Try explaining crytography to a lay person as an example. > > Old-fashioned voting systems have the advantage of operating under > principles that are common knowledge; there are no "black-box" phenomena > with an election system. All the parts are subject to scrutiny by > people armed with common knowledge, and so can directly verify that > things are as they appear. They don't have to be armed with years of > experience in arcane subjects, as software people do. All they need is > the native machinery most of us are born with, if it hasn't atrophied > because of too much cultural immersion. It ain't rocket science. > > A computer is a system that runs on components that the average > person thinks are magic, and presents the illusion of of reliability > and transparency. I don't know how to state it any clearer than to > say that all that transparency and reliability are purely illusory. > Under the skin, the software is complex and arcane, not well understood > by the authors, much less anybody else. Sorry, too much rocket science. > > The reliability we *do* get from computers is because the parts we > see have been hammered on for many years by talented people (both good > guys and bad guys), mostly working on free software (*not* commercial). > The reliability has *emerged*, which is to say that it wan't there from > the git-go, it had to evolve. Sure, design principles and good practice > exist, but as we have seen, this isn't enough. > > Consider the filesystem on scn, for example. Election-management software > would be easily as complex as a filesystem. Unix filesystems are, > in general, highly reliable. People have investments of millions of $ > in the data that resides in them, so there's been plenty of incentive > to develop reliable software in that domain, and *lots* of people have > worked on that software. If an election system could be as reliable as > a filesystem, with repair and monitoring tools and the like, including > built-in trust-enhancers, and check-and-balance-style decision-making, > under the *control* of the users, I'd have a lot more confidence in the concept. > > This isn't to say it can't happen. I think it would be a worth-while > project, if a good set of requirements and design could come up. Software > like that, if it worked, could be as subversive against established > orders as PGP, and so, for that reason alone, is worth supporting. > > But as it is, it's more like a topic for PhD candidates than a serious > policy option for SCN. Or a candidate for a cooperative open software > development effort, a la some of the Open Software efforts going on right > now. I have no idea if any such thing exists. > > As to whether the election is conducted by mail-in ballot, or by having > to be present at a meeting, well, I really don't care. I'm just against > ill-advised leaps on technological bandwagons. And unless there's > home-grown talent suitable for pioneering this, I'd say, give it a miss. > Or wait for somebody to get inspired. > > >You haven't solved the serious barrier the travel requirement causes. Can > >you address that? > > Yeah, I think it's pretty trivial. Consider trying to cross the freeway, > or trying to escape from old East Germany. Now, those are what I call > "serious barriers". The temporary inconvenience of an annual election pales > by comparison, and I have trouble taking the concept seriously. > > >> A real-world example is "just-in-time" inventory systems, which function well > >> only in perfectly harmonious conditions, > > > >RL: > >I don't see the validity in your comparison with universal voting and JIT > >inventory. > > I wasn't talking about "universal voting". I was talking about election > management and likening the instabilities of a speeded-up democratic > process to the difficulties with other hastily adopted time-saving > management technologies. I can see where a lot of the heat is coming > from if you misread what I said that badly. > > >In any case, we should never use the meeting-only voting method again. > > Well, mail-in absentee ballots seem to work reasonably well, at least for > those who take the trouble to fill them out. I live in a precinct (White > Center, "Heights" precinct) where all the registered voters (not many among > the local populace) get absentee ballots because the KC election department > thinks it's too expensive to set up polling places for that few voters. > Absentee ballots are good for overworked people with little time. But take > note that that's not the reason the KCED is doing this. I don't think > absentee ballots or e-mail voting would work as a tool to get apathetic > people to cast their votes because the act of voting is somehow brought > below these people's threshold of action. If they stay away from "meat-world" > polling-places, they'll stay away from the virtual ones, too. > > For election-management system horror stories and cautionary tales, take a > look at the RISKS list, or browse their archives. > Here's abridged blurb-info: > The RISKS Forum is a MODERATED digest. Its Usenet equivalent is comp.risks. > => SUBSCRIPTIONS: PLEASE read RISKS as a newsgroup (comp.risks or equivalent) > if possible and convenient for you. Alternatively, via majordomo, > SEND DIRECT E-MAIL REQUESTS to with one-line, > SUBSCRIBE (or UNSUBSCRIBE) [with net address if different from FROM:] or > INFO [for unabridged version of RISKS information] > ... > => ARCHIVES are available: ftp://ftp.sri.com/risks or > ftp ftp.sri.comlogin anonymous[YourNetAddress]cd risks > [volume-summary issues are in risks-*.00] > [back volumes have their own subdirectories, e.g., "cd 19" for volume 19] > or http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/VL.IS.html [i.e., VoLume, ISsue]. > Indulge your schadenfreude over the morning coffee! Better than the morning > paper! It's also pretty good for the occasional frisson up the spine. :) :) > --kurt > I found this quote in the blurb accompanying some Delaunay triangulation > software from AT&T, apparently apropos an ancient language religious debate: > I think the best way I've heard this put is "Pascal gives you a > water pistol filled with distilled water. C not only gives you > a loaded .357, it points it at your head as a default. Why do > you think Pascal is taught in school? And which would you rather > have when there was a hungry bear in the area?" --Jim Harkins > I'd clobber the bear with Vols 1 & 2 of the Java Class library --kurt > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Thu Dec 10 23:32:19 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:32:19 -0800 Subject: Voting In-Reply-To: References: <199812110024.QAA14323@grogatch.seaslug.org> Message-ID: <199812110741.XAA14105@scn.org> Rich wrote: > Let's make it reasonably convenient for all SCNA members to vote. And while it's true that there may be some security or fraud issues, it might also be useful to do a little cost-benefit analysis. After all, we're not voting for the leader of the free world here, just a few board members. If someone wants to go to the trouble of registering dead Chicago voters to pack the SCNA board, well, perhaps they should get a life. And besides, some of the folks who are against this proposal don't much care for the current board anyway, so what do they have to lose? :) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ljbeedle at scn.org Fri Dec 11 04:53:16 1998 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:53:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Voting In-Reply-To: <199812110741.XAA14105@scn.org> Message-ID: Would suggest that it would have to be dead dues paid up SCNA members. At least in Chicago the dead voter had to have been registered when they were alive. Thanks Steve, you gave me my first chuckle of the day. Lois On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Steve wrote: > Rich wrote: > > Let's make it reasonably convenient for all SCNA members to vote. > > And while it's true that there may be some security or fraud issues, > it might also be useful to do a little cost-benefit analysis. After > all, we're not voting for the leader of the free world here, just a > few board members. If someone wants to go to the trouble of > registering dead Chicago voters to pack the SCNA board, well, > perhaps they should get a life. And besides, some of the folks who > are against this proposal don't much care for the current board > anyway, so what do they have to lose? :) > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ljbeedle at scn.org Fri Dec 11 05:03:13 1998 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 05:03:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: with this In-Reply-To: <199812110024.QAA14323@grogatch.seaslug.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Kurt Cockrum wrote: > The problem isn't "specific", it's general, and rather abstract, and > difficult to get across to non-computer folk. It's tough enough to > discuss among colleagues. I wish CPSR was some help here, but they're > not. Try explaining crytography to a lay person as an example. > Just how many none computer folk do you think you are reaching with this mail? If the problem can't be identified than it probably isn't a problem. > Old-fashioned voting systems have the advantage of operating under > principles that are common knowledge; there are no "black-box" phenomena > with an election system. All the parts are subject to scrutiny by > people armed with common knowledge, and so can directly verify that > things are as they appear. They don't have to be armed with years of > experience in arcane subjects, as software people do. All they need is > the native machinery most of us are born with, if it hasn't atrophied > because of too much cultural immersion. It ain't rocket science. > Currently King County is using a black-box to electronically transmit election results from the polling place to the election board computer. So far it has gone well and we have had no problem with either the process or the results. And the majority of the election workers do not have any computer experience - yet they manage quite nicely with only a bit of training. Although your message goes on, I still have not seen any facts to back up your conclusion in relationship to scn. Since one can assume that all members have access to a computer, I would agree with a previous writer that trying the already tried system with a test vote could be done with little cost of time and energy. And the end result could be a large saving in time and energy in the 'real' election. Lois * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From janossz at scn.org Fri Dec 11 13:14:40 1998 From: janossz at scn.org (Janos Szablya) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:14:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Voting In-Reply-To: <199812110741.XAA14105@scn.org> Message-ID: Silly suggestion... 1. email the ballot to all members that vote. 2. have them print the ballot 3. put the completed ballot into an envelope 4. put the envelope into another envelope and mail 5. all replys are opened (1st envelope) and the contents are put into a container. 6. on a given day they are opened and counted. It will cost us each 2 envelopes and a stamp.... 7. Suggest a donation in the 2nd envelope (the one with he address on it) Janos * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From n5jrn at ricochet.net Fri Dec 11 15:39:20 1998 From: n5jrn at ricochet.net (David Barts) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:39:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: with this, my bladder's empty In-Reply-To: from "Rich Littleton" at Dec 10, 98 11:02:07 pm Message-ID: <199812112339.PAA09223@subversion.org> Rich Littleton writes: > To all readers: (from Rich) > Kurt sent this extended reply to my requesting clarification of his > statement that e-voting is risky. My understanding of Kurt's message is: > 1. E-voting software is not used much; > 2. This software might have glitches in it; and > 3. It would take heavy use/testing to be sure it was safe; He also says (to me at least), perhaps most important of all, that: 4. Unlike traditional paper voting systems, the technology behind E-voting systems is not understandable by the majority of the voting public. This removes a key component of any voting system: public oversight, and a resulting trust that is based on observable and comprehensible facts, not blind faith in a technology and its priesthood. I.e., even if *all* technological barriers to E-voting systems are solved, there are still social, psychological, and political barriers that make it unlikely that E-voting will *ever* be as appropriate as traditional voting systems. -- David W. Barts (n5jrn at ricochet.net) / http://www.scn.org/~davidb LEGAL NOTICE: I am a WASHINGTON STATE RESIDENT. Unsolicited bulk E-mail may be billed $500 each in accordance with Chapter 19 RCW. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Sat Dec 12 02:36:08 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 02:36:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Voting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alternate Suggestion (to make voting more convenient for the voters). 1. SCNA mailing to 100% of SCNA members. 2. This mailing contains (a) yearly renewal request and (b) ballot and (c) confidentiality envelope to contain returned ballot, and return envelope (not postage paid)in which the member would mail the confidiality envel. (containing the ballot) back to SCNA. 3. Ballots counted. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Janos Szablya wrote: > > > Silly suggestion... > > 1. email the ballot to all members that vote. > > 2. have them print the ballot > > 3. put the completed ballot into an envelope > > 4. put the envelope into another envelope and mail > > 5. all replys are opened (1st envelope) and the contents are put into a > container. > > 6. on a given day they are opened and counted. > > It will cost us each 2 envelopes and a stamp.... > > 7. Suggest a donation in the 2nd envelope (the one with he address on it) > > Janos > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Sat Dec 12 02:42:19 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 02:42:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: with this, my bladder's empty In-Reply-To: <199812112339.PAA09223@subversion.org> Message-ID: David, SCN's Stefani Banerian already uses electronic voting. Let's give it a test, at least. Would you be willing to be on a list to do a couple of "dummy" elections? Anyone who would be willing to be a "trial voter" for a test run (not a real vote) can send his/her name to the board. While there is no plan to do a sample election, at least the board can simply list the willing members' addresses and hold the list as this matter evolves. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, David Barts wrote: > Rich Littleton writes: > > > To all readers: (from Rich) > > Kurt sent this extended reply to my requesting clarification of his > > statement that e-voting is risky. My understanding of Kurt's message is: > > 1. E-voting software is not used much; > > 2. This software might have glitches in it; and > > 3. It would take heavy use/testing to be sure it was safe; > > He also says (to me at least), perhaps most important of all, that: > > 4. Unlike traditional paper voting systems, the technology behind > E-voting systems is not understandable by the majority of the > voting public. This removes a key component of any voting system: > public oversight, and a resulting trust that is based on observable > and comprehensible facts, not blind faith in a technology and > its priesthood. > > I.e., even if *all* technological barriers to E-voting systems are solved, > there are still social, psychological, and political barriers that make > it unlikely that E-voting will *ever* be as appropriate as traditional > voting systems. > > -- > David W. Barts (n5jrn at ricochet.net) / http://www.scn.org/~davidb > LEGAL NOTICE: I am a WASHINGTON STATE RESIDENT. Unsolicited bulk > E-mail may be billed $500 each in accordance with Chapter 19 RCW. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb140 at scn.org Sat Dec 12 08:28:07 1998 From: bb140 at scn.org (Barb Weismann) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 08:28:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Voting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This suggestion is closest to how many of us interact, via terrminal. The election official would confirm from the outside envelope that the person is a voting member and has only sent in one ballot. Barb On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Janos Szablya wrote: > > > Silly suggestion... > > 1. email the ballot to all members that vote. > > 2. have them print the ballot > > 3. put the completed ballot into an envelope > > 4. put the envelope into another envelope and mail > > 5. all replys are opened (1st envelope) and the contents are put into a > container. > > 6. on a given day they are opened and counted. > > It will cost us each 2 envelopes and a stamp.... > > 7. Suggest a donation in the 2nd envelope (the one with he address on it) > > Janos > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at saltmine.com Mon Dec 14 08:57:24 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:57:24 -0800 Subject: Voting Message-ID: <01BE273F.C478B320.jmabel@saltmine.com> Many of our low end users have no printer, so I'm skeptical of a scheme where you must own a printer to vote. Or we _could_ get majorly into the business of recycling old printers... -----Original Message----- From: Barb Weismann [SMTP:bb140 at scn.org] Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 8:28 AM To: Janos Szablya Cc: Steve; scn at scn.org Subject: Re: Voting This suggestion is closest to how many of us interact, via terrminal. The election official would confirm from the outside envelope that the person is a voting member and has only sent in one ballot. Barb On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Janos Szablya wrote: > > > Silly suggestion... > > 1. email the ballot to all members that vote. > > 2. have them print the ballot > > 3. put the completed ballot into an envelope > > 4. put the envelope into another envelope and mail > > 5. all replys are opened (1st envelope) and the contents are put into a > container. > > 6. on a given day they are opened and counted. > > It will cost us each 2 envelopes and a stamp.... > > 7. Suggest a donation in the 2nd envelope (the one with he address on it) > > Janos > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Mon Dec 14 15:25:57 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:25:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Voting In-Reply-To: <01BE273F.C478B320.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: I concur with Joe's observation. That points to another advantage of combining the membership renewal drive with the mailed-out ballots. About recycling computers, that is a great idea, and even greater because the recent generation of "used" computers are more and more on this side of the Windows 95 shift and can handle the space guzzling new software. Sharma was working on that before. Is recycling of computers a current activity? That might be a great volunteer magnet, as it is hands-on and a clear benefit to the targetted users. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > Many of our low end users have no printer, so I'm skeptical of a scheme where you must own a printer to vote. > > Or we _could_ get majorly into the business of recycling old printers... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Barb Weismann [SMTP:bb140 at scn.org] > Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 8:28 AM > To: Janos Szablya > Cc: Steve; scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: Voting > > This suggestion is closest to how many of us interact, via terrminal. > The election official would confirm from the outside envelope that the > person is a voting member and has only sent in one ballot. > Barb > > > > On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Janos Szablya wrote: > > > > > > > Silly suggestion... > > > > 1. email the ballot to all members that vote. > > > > 2. have them print the ballot > > > > 3. put the completed ballot into an envelope > > > > 4. put the envelope into another envelope and mail > > > > 5. all replys are opened (1st envelope) and the contents are put into a > > container. > > > > 6. on a given day they are opened and counted. > > > > It will cost us each 2 envelopes and a stamp.... > > > > 7. Suggest a donation in the 2nd envelope (the one with he address on it) > > > > Janos > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From janossz at scn.org Mon Dec 14 15:29:58 1998 From: janossz at scn.org (Janos Szablya) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 15:29:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Voting In-Reply-To: <01BE273F.C478B320.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: It is possible under those conditions to request a written ballot by mail. It's still cheaper than a mailing and more secure than the alternative systems. J On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > Many of our low end users have no printer, so I'm skeptical of a scheme where you must own a printer to vote. > > Or we _could_ get majorly into the business of recycling old printers... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Barb Weismann [SMTP:bb140 at scn.org] > Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 8:28 AM > To: Janos Szablya > Cc: Steve; scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: Voting > > This suggestion is closest to how many of us interact, via terrminal. > The election official would confirm from the outside envelope that the > person is a voting member and has only sent in one ballot. > Barb > > > > On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Janos Szablya wrote: > > > > > > > Silly suggestion... > > > > 1. email the ballot to all members that vote. > > > > 2. have them print the ballot > > > > 3. put the completed ballot into an envelope > > > > 4. put the envelope into another envelope and mail > > > > 5. all replys are opened (1st envelope) and the contents are put into a > > container. > > > > 6. on a given day they are opened and counted. > > > > It will cost us each 2 envelopes and a stamp.... > > > > 7. Suggest a donation in the 2nd envelope (the one with he address on it) > > > > Janos > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at aa.net Mon Dec 14 17:01:00 1998 From: sharma at aa.net (Sharma) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:01:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Voting and computer recycling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello, I agree that we did not give sufficient notice about the availability of the proxy voting this election. I hope we will keep copies of everything we developed, improve them, and be able to put them up ahead of time next year. Many of the libraries have printers that can be used to print out a page. Perhaps by that time we will be able to have a system in place to allow safe electronic voting. It will be much more difficult to have secret electronic voting however, and many people want their votes to be secret. It will require the sustained effort of several volunteers to make certain it happens, and must not use resources that might threaten the system functioning. I hope those volunteers who wish to, and are able to, set up the programs needed will appear. I am not skilled enough to write the program and test it to make it happen. Just wanting it will not make it happen. I am discontinuing the recycling of used computers and printers, but perhaps someone else would like to form a group to pick it up? The Computer Bank Charity is doing a pretty good job and I plan to suggest that those wishing to place old computers give them to the bank. -sharma PS. People who donate computers and printers seldom include any manuals or drivers, so the recycling has been difficult for printers. Few companies keep copies of the manuals for discontinued technology. With the assistance of many others, SCNA has placed close to 100 systems now, but I am spread too thin to continue past placing the few systems I have left. And I just I don't have the space to store all that needs to be stored when working on computers anymore. In order to successfully recycle computers and printers, a secure work space and storage space with power and heat would be needed. Anyone have one they can spare? On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > I concur with Joe's observation. That points to another advantage of > combining the membership renewal drive with the mailed-out ballots. > > About recycling computers, that is a great idea, and even greater because > the recent generation of "used" computers are more and more on this side > of the Windows 95 shift and can handle the space guzzling new software. > > Sharma was working on that before. Is recycling of computers a current > activity? That might be a great volunteer magnet, as it is hands-on and a > clear benefit to the targetted users. > > Rich > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > Many of our low end users have no printer, so I'm skeptical of a > scheme where you must own a printer to vote. > > > > Or we _could_ get majorly into the business of recycling old printers... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Barb Weismann [SMTP:bb140 at scn.org] > > Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 8:28 AM > > To: Janos Szablya > > Cc: Steve; scn at scn.org > > Subject: Re: Voting > > > > This suggestion is closest to how many of us interact, via terrminal. > > The election official would confirm from the outside envelope that the > > person is a voting member and has only sent in one ballot. > > Barb > > > > > > > > On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Janos Szablya wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Silly suggestion... > > > > > > 1. email the ballot to all members that vote. > > > > > > 2. have them print the ballot > > > > > > 3. put the completed ballot into an envelope > > > > > > 4. put the envelope into another envelope and mail > > > > > > 5. all replys are opened (1st envelope) and the contents are put into a > > > container. > > > > > > 6. on a given day they are opened and counted. > > > > > > It will cost us each 2 envelopes and a stamp.... > > > > > > 7. Suggest a donation in the 2nd envelope (the one with he address on it) > > > > > > Janos > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Mon Dec 14 22:45:11 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:45:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Voting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, Janos, if the mailing is combined with our annual renewal mailing which goes to all SCNA members anyway, this mail-in ballot is no additional cost (except if the added papers require a higher postage, but that is a minimal cost). Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Janos Szablya wrote: > It is possible under those conditions to request a written ballot by mail. > It's still cheaper than a mailing and more secure than the alternative > systems. > J > > On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > Many of our low end users have no printer, so I'm skeptical of a scheme where you must own a printer to vote. > > > > Or we _could_ get majorly into the business of recycling old printers... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Barb Weismann [SMTP:bb140 at scn.org] > > Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 8:28 AM > > To: Janos Szablya > > Cc: Steve; scn at scn.org > > Subject: Re: Voting > > > > This suggestion is closest to how many of us interact, via terrminal. > > The election official would confirm from the outside envelope that the > > person is a voting member and has only sent in one ballot. > > Barb > > > > > > > > On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Janos Szablya wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Silly suggestion... > > > > > > 1. email the ballot to all members that vote. > > > > > > 2. have them print the ballot > > > > > > 3. put the completed ballot into an envelope > > > > > > 4. put the envelope into another envelope and mail > > > > > > 5. all replys are opened (1st envelope) and the contents are put into a > > > container. > > > > > > 6. on a given day they are opened and counted. > > > > > > It will cost us each 2 envelopes and a stamp.... > > > > > > 7. Suggest a donation in the 2nd envelope (the one with he address on it) > > > > > > Janos > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Mon Dec 14 23:00:30 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:00:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Voting and computer recycling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Very informative message, Sharma. Thanks. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From kv9x at scn.org Wed Dec 16 10:03:50 1998 From: kv9x at scn.org (Brian High) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:03:50 -0800 Subject: "e-ballot" -- Proposal for Electronic Voting, Version A Message-ID: <01BE28DB.8E6E1340.kv9x@scn.org> "e-ballot" -- Proposal for Electronic Voting, Version A INTRODUCTION This is a rough outline for how electronic voting could be done. It will be described as an automated process, but could also be implemented as a manual process. For the purposes of discussion, the following case will be used: Organization=SCNA, Committee=USER SERVICES, Voting-Pool=VOLUNTEERS. OVERALL DESCRIPTION This system will use an email account, "e-ballot", that will be used soley for the purpose of electronic voting. It will also have a program running as a cron job to scan the mail file for specific types of messages and will maintain a few files and archive messages. The program will respond to a small set of commands and send out mail automatically based on commands it receives. In this way it will operate similar to majordomo. It will work completely through email and will use voter validation, but not require special tools or knowledge. HOW IT WORKS The email account (e-ballot) will accept 8 types of messages, all others will be ignored and deleted. The 8 types are: 1. voter registration (must be member of "pool" -- see below) 2. voter unregistration 3. "move" to vote, including e-ballot phrasing 4. "second" the move to vote 5. ballot 6. request for help file (includes list of groups to register for) 7. create a new voting group (that would be listed above after creation) 8. delete a voting group (must be person who created it) (Voting pool updates will be mailed directly to the "vote-master" for manual installation. The must come from an organization leader who has been designated by the organization for this purpose. For SCNA volunteers, the Volunteer Coordinator would send a list of volunteers to the votemaster. These are volunteers who have signed the volunteer agreement and who are not in trouble for conduct violations.) It would send confirmation messages, "move to vote" messages to registered voters of the group the vote pertains to, "second" messages to the group and e-ballots to the group. It would also send tabulated voting results to the group. (Here we use "group" to mean the subset of organization/committee members who have registered to vote and who have been accepted. See below.) [As you can see it works a lot like majordomo and could possibly be done by majordomo with the proper modifications. However, it may be easier just to write a single perl (or other) script to do it.] VOTER REGISTRATION A voter registration message body would look like this: ================ BEGIN MESSAGE BODY ================= register scna user-services volunteers First-name Last-name ================ END MESSAGE BODY ================= FORMAT: register org-name sub-group voter-pool First-name Last-name ... and would "subscribe" the sender to the "voters" list for that organization/committee pair. A file would be maintained in the /home/e-ballot directory for voters_scna_user-services and the email address of the sender would be stored there, but first the name will be checked against a list of approved_scna_voters-volunteers which is a list provided by the volunteer coordinator and contains names of everyone who has signed the volunteer agreement. (This list is not to be confused with approved_scna_voters-members.) So, if they are on that list, they will receive their unique voter password, which is generated randomly. For their e-ballots to be honored, the ballot must have the same name and password on it. The voters_scna_user-services file will store the names and passwords and be readable only be e-ballot and by root. VOTER UNREGISTRATION Unregistering would work the same way, but backwards. ================ BEGIN MESSAGE BODY ================= unregister scna user-services volunteers First-name Last-name PASSWORD ================ END MESSAGE BODY ================= FORMAT: unregister org-name sub-group voter-pool First-name Last-name pass A confirmation letter would be sent saying that the person had successfully unsubscribed if the name and password matched the voters_scna_user-services file entry. They would then be deleted from that file. MOVE TO VOTE, SECOND THE VOTE AND VOTING If a registered voter for a particular "committee" sends a message to e-ballot of the following format, it is a movement to vote: ================ BEGIN MESSAGE BODY ================= move scna user-services volunteers First-name Last-name PASSWORD start I move that we should abandon holding physical meetings altogether and henceforth conduct all committee business using e-ballot. stop ================ END MESSAGE BODY ================= When e-ballot got the message, it would save it in scna_user-services-move and would assign it a vote number. A message would then be sent to all registered voters in scna_user-services that would say: To: From: e-ballot at scn.org Subject: scna user-services volunteers MOVE to vote 0001 ================ BEGIN MESSAGE BODY ================= REPLY WITHIN THREE DAYS TO SECOND THIS MOVEMENT First-name Last-name moves that we vote on the following: I move that we should abandon holding physical meetings altogether and henceforth conduct all committee business using e-ballot. ================ END MESSAGE BODY ================= If a reply to e-ballot comes for this message within three days, by a registered voter, then the message is stored in scna_user-services-moved and the following message is sent: To: From: e-ballot at scn.org Subject: scna user-services volunteers CALL to vote 0001 ================ BEGIN MESSAGE BODY ================= REPLY BY NEXT SUNDAY (date) AT MIDNIGHT TO VOTE ON THIS ==> vote on first line of message body ==> EXAMPLE: vote YEA First-name Last-name PASSWORD ==> EXAMPLE: vote NAY First-name Last-name PASSWORD ==> EXAMPLE: vote ABSTAIN First-name Last-name PASSWORD First-name Last-name proposed that we vote on the following: I move that we should abandon holding physical meetings altogether and henceforth conduct all committee business using e-ballot. ================ END MESSAGE BODY ================= When the messages are read by e-ballot, messages with "CALL to vote 0001" in the subject line will be checked for voter validation and the voted will be counted and stored in scna_user-services-0001. The vote count will be sent to the "committee" (people in voters_scna_user-services). If duplicates are received, the last one from any given voter will be accepted -- all others form that voter will be ignored. If the vote comes after the stated date and time, the vote will be ignored. If the name/password combo is wrong, an error message will be sent to the voter, the "vote-master", and the person who called the vote will be CCed. (No passwords will be ever be sent by e-ballot.) At this point, the e-ballot is complete for that vote. Any action to be taken will be done so separately by those involved with the issue voted upon. SUMMARY This voting system would take several hours, probably 40 or more to program and test. However, it need not be automated. A person could do all of this work manually, but over time the work involved would exceed the time to write the program. Also, I encourage everyone to search the 'net for a program that could perform the same functions, namely: * register voters in a way that would be hard or impossible to "cheat" * ensure confidentiality * conduct all voting and other operations entirely by email * keep accurate and thorough records * work for many groups, not just one * clean up after itself :-) Personally, I am just barely at the point where I could write such a program. I know there are other out there whose programming skill and knowledge far exceeds mine. I encourage anyone who possess such resources to speak up and take the the challenge. Also, if you have a modified or entirely different proposal, let's hear it! --Brian High Chair, SCNA User Services Committee * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb140 at scn.org Thu Dec 17 00:25:31 1998 From: bb140 at scn.org (Barb Weismann) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:25:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: "e-ballot" -- Proposal for Electronic Voting, Version A In-Reply-To: <01BE28DB.8E6E1340.kv9x@scn.org> Message-ID: Brian: I haven't read all of this, but would like to say I wish it were not open to "root." Doesn't that mean everyone who has root access? Is there any way to put protects around specific votes, so only one person has access, the Vote Master? Thanks for this very interesting approach. Barb * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From lindnkev at scn.org Thu Dec 17 07:11:57 1998 From: lindnkev at scn.org (Keven Ruf LINDNKEV Lindsay Day) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:11:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: overload issue Message-ID: I got some pretty severe warnings from you guys because you said I had too many files marked for undeletion. I had two. ONe happened to be a graphic that my friend had just sent. I ddidn't even know it was there. I do very well at destroying files when I finish reading them. Please back off. Lindsay * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Thu Dec 17 10:01:28 1998 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:01:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: spam "etiquette" suggestions Message-ID: <199812171801.KAA05881@scn.org> FYI, Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 06:38:57 -0800 From: "cisler" To: AFCNmembers Subject: Why the Internet is not "Free" We all know that we have a great tool in being able to send and receive email without thinking much about the cost. Few places outside of North America have flat rate (or many community networks); it can be pretty costly. I thought I'd pass on a short piece from a California ISP newsletter which explained why service was so bad last week for me and others. I think it shows how delicate the Internet still is and how costly it is to deal with Spam and mail attacks. The cost is in money, time, and good will. Steve --- ------------- ----- ---- --- -- - Last Week's Email Problems ------------- ----- ---- --- -- - Last week InReach experienced problems with Email, where illegal "spam" Email attacks caused several days of slowdowns and some periods of Email being unavailable. We apologize for the inconvenience this caused for many of our members, and wanted to explain the causes of the problems, and the steps we are taking to insure this type of service problem does not occur again in the future. Last week we were hit by three "spammers," people who illegally send thousands of unsolicited Email messages. The first occurred on Tuesday morning, and caused only a moderate slowdown. Unfortunately, as our server was processing these messages, we were hit during peak mail usage time Tuesday evening by another spammer, and then again on Wednesday morning. These attacks, which sent tens of thousands of messages to the server in the space of a few minutes, filled up the server storage space and slowed the server to a crawl. With each spam attack, the server not only had to process the thousands of Emails, but also had to deal with the thousands of messages which bounced back, sometimes hours after the initial attack. What InReach is Doing --------------------- During these attacks, we worked with the ISPs providing access to the spammers to block the attacks. Unfortunately, many thousands of messages did get through before these routes were blocked. We are establishing new spam recovery procedures, and are studying countermeasures and working with other ISPs to prevent these attacks in the future. We are also attempting to identify those responsible for these attacks, and may pursue legal action against these parties. In addition, we will be dramatically upgrading our Email hardware in the coming weeks. We will be installing a new fiber-optic 35 gigabyte disk array, which will deliver messages more quickly, and increase our Email capacity greatly, so junk messages will not be able to fill up our storage space. We will also be adding a second Email server in the near future, so one server will process incoming Email, and the other one will process outgoing Email, which should also improve performance. What You Can Do --------------- There are several things which you, as an InReach member, can do to help us in our fight against "spam" or junk Email. Never reply in any way to a spam message. Simply delete them or forward them, with the header attached, to abuse at inreach.com so we can investigate. Never ask a spammer to remove you from his/her list, even if they say that they will remove you from the list. Many illegal Emailers simply use this as a way of confirming that your Email address is valid, as they send out millions of unsolicited Emails. Never get into any heated or abusive dialog in Email, because it could trigger such an attack or "mail bomb." It is always best to keep all Email and chat dialogs polite. If you experience problems with Email, wait a minute or two and check again. If it does not go through but you can get on the web, check our System Status page under the technical support area. If no updated information is available on our system status page, please give us a call, and be sure to listen to the tech support and member services greeting messages for information on any system problems. We welcome your comments and questions regarding spam and the Email problems we experienced last week. Again, we apologize for the inconvenience, and are working hard to ensure that it does not happen again. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Thu Dec 17 11:04:59 1998 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:04:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN featured in on Community Networks site Message-ID: <199812171904.LAA03632@scn.org> Excuse me if you've seen this before... The Community Connector is an online periodical dedicated to community networking topics. It is produced at the University of Michigan. SCN is featured in the lastest edition... -- Doug > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 21:22:36 -0500 (EST) > From: "Charlotte L. Gerstein" > To: si.all at umich.edu, cn.contacts at umich.edu > Subject: New Connector content > > Greetings, School of Information folks and other friends of the Community > Networking Initiative-- > > Just wanted to let you know we've got a new issue of Connections, our > online journal, up this month. It features a report on some research Joan > C. Durrance and Paul Resnick's Community Information Systems class did on > the roles commercial, government and not-for-profit local information > providers play in five U.S. cities. We also report on Steve Cisler's > visit to SI, and feature profiles of LibertyNet of Philadelphia, and two > community networks in the northwest, Oregon Public Networking in Eugene > and the Seattle Community Network, run entirely by volunteers. See > http://www.si.umich.edu/Community/connections/ > > Also check out our News Briefs, gathered from many sources, reporting and > linking to news of interest to community networkers and others following > trends in community information systems. See > http://www.si.umich.edu/Community/connections/news.html > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Charlotte Gerstein > cgerstei at umich.edu > Master's degree candidate > School of Information, University of Michigan > Community Networking Initiative > http://www.si.umich.edu/Community/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From kv9x at scn.org Thu Dec 17 18:24:05 1998 From: kv9x at scn.org (Brian High) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:24:05 -0800 Subject: "e-ballot" -- Proposal for Electronic Voting, Version A Message-ID: <01BE29EB.D23C4090.kv9x@scn.org> Barbara, First, Let's move this discussion to just one email list: services at scn.org This will be my last cross-post. Do not "reply-to-all" if you choose to reply. :-) === Short answer: I am against using encryption, and instead propose we use standard file-level security -- meaning only the file owner and the sysadmin (root) can read files. This is the same security your "inbox" has for your email. === "root" is the adminstrator's acount on a Unix system. There are a handful of SCN voluteers who have this access for adminstrative use. Root can see and do anything, (short of reading encrypted files for which they do not have the decryption key). Usually these people do not log into root except when necesary to do specific tasks that require it. If our administrators use root to snoop, that is another matter. The proposed system does not use encryption, but instead will use files that are readable only by the file owner (e-ballot) and the human who can access that account (votemaster) and root (because root can see everything ...). This brings up the point that Kurt and others did; most people do not know all of this stuff and may be skeptical and untrusting of even the most well-planned and private system. However, I feel that for regular committee or IP work, the privacy is important but if somebody is not perfectly comfortable with the technology, they do not have to use it. Same goes for email for that matter. The fact is, most committee work does not need to be private and secret anyway. We can make the system as private as personal email files can be. That's pretty good. Without PGP, that is about the _best_ we could do. I am agaist PGP for the reasons others have mentioned: not all voters have access to the tools they would need. (Dumb terminals cannot do PGP unless the PGP tools are on SCN, which is a bad idea because then PGP would be no better that unix file security ... and we would be back where we started.) Anyway, there were some errors in the proposal ... and some security holes. The biggest error is that the statement "e-ballot will never send passwords" should read "e-ballot will never send voter passwords to anyone but the newly registered voter". Also, if the voter saves their password to some file in their work directory, it is likely that that file would be readbale by others. Therefore voters would have to warned against doing so. --Brian On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Barb Weismann wrote: > Brian: > I haven't read all of this, but would like to say I wish it were not open > to "root." Doesn't that mean everyone who has root access? Is there any > way to put protects around specific votes, so only one person has access, > the Vote Master? > > Thanks for this very interesting approach. > Barb > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Fri Dec 18 23:49:27 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:49:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: "e-ballot" -- Proposal for Electronic Voting, Version A In-Reply-To: <01BE28DB.8E6E1340.kv9x@scn.org> Message-ID: This is an excellent bit of work: a concrete proposal for steps toward an important goal. I assume it will have to be given a few test runs to see how it works. Please put my name on a list of testers. Rich Littleton ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Brian High wrote: > "e-ballot" -- Proposal for Electronic Voting, Version A > > INTRODUCTION > This is a rough outline for how electronic voting could be done. It > will be described as an automated process, but could also be implemented > as a manual process. For the purposes of discussion, the following > case will be used: Organization=SCNA, Committee=USER SERVICES, > Voting-Pool=VOLUNTEERS. > > OVERALL DESCRIPTION > This system will use an email account, "e-ballot", that will be used > soley for the purpose of electronic voting. It will also have a program > running as a cron job to scan the mail file for specific types of messages > and will maintain a few files and archive messages. The program will > respond to a small set of commands and send out mail automatically based > on commands it receives. In this way it will operate similar to majordomo. > It will work completely through email and will use voter validation, but > not require special tools or knowledge. > > HOW IT WORKS > The email account (e-ballot) will accept 8 types of messages, all others > will be ignored and deleted. The 8 types are: > > 1. voter registration (must be member of "pool" -- see below) > 2. voter unregistration > 3. "move" to vote, including e-ballot phrasing > 4. "second" the move to vote > 5. ballot > 6. request for help file (includes list of groups to register for) > 7. create a new voting group (that would be listed above after creation) > 8. delete a voting group (must be person who created it) > > (Voting pool updates will be mailed directly to the "vote-master" > for manual installation. The must come from an organization leader who > has been designated by the organization for this purpose. For SCNA > volunteers, the Volunteer Coordinator would send a list of volunteers > to the votemaster. These are volunteers who have signed the volunteer > agreement and who are not in trouble for conduct violations.) > > It would send confirmation messages, "move to vote" messages to registered > voters of the group the vote pertains to, "second" messages to > the group and e-ballots to the group. It would also send tabulated > voting results to the group. (Here we use "group" to mean the subset > of organization/committee members who have registered to vote and who > have been accepted. See below.) [As you can see it works a lot like > majordomo and could possibly be done by majordomo with the proper > modifications. However, it may be easier just to write a single > perl (or other) script to do it.] > > VOTER REGISTRATION > A voter registration message body would look like this: > > ================ BEGIN MESSAGE BODY ================= > register scna user-services volunteers First-name Last-name > ================ END MESSAGE BODY ================= > > FORMAT: register org-name sub-group voter-pool First-name Last-name > > ... and would "subscribe" the sender to the "voters" list > for that organization/committee pair. A file would be maintained > in the /home/e-ballot directory for voters_scna_user-services and > the email address of the sender would be stored there, but first the > name will be checked against a list of approved_scna_voters-volunteers which > is a list provided by the volunteer coordinator and contains names > of everyone who has signed the volunteer agreement. (This list is > not to be confused with approved_scna_voters-members.) So, if they are > on that list, they will receive their unique voter password, which is > generated randomly. For their e-ballots to be honored, the ballot must > have the same name and password on it. The voters_scna_user-services > file will store the names and passwords and be readable only be e-ballot > and by root. > > VOTER UNREGISTRATION > Unregistering would work the same way, but backwards. > > ================ BEGIN MESSAGE BODY ================= > unregister scna user-services volunteers First-name Last-name PASSWORD > ================ END MESSAGE BODY ================= > > FORMAT: unregister org-name sub-group voter-pool First-name Last-name pass > > A confirmation letter would be sent saying that the person had successfully > unsubscribed if the name and password matched the voters_scna_user-services > file entry. They would then be deleted from that file. > > > MOVE TO VOTE, SECOND THE VOTE AND VOTING > If a registered voter for a particular "committee" sends a message > to e-ballot of the following format, it is a movement to vote: > > ================ BEGIN MESSAGE BODY ================= > move scna user-services volunteers First-name Last-name PASSWORD > start > I move that we should abandon holding physical meetings altogether > and henceforth conduct all committee business using e-ballot. > stop > ================ END MESSAGE BODY ================= > > When e-ballot got the message, it would save it in scna_user-services-move > and would assign it a vote number. > > A message would then be sent to all registered voters in scna_user-services > that would say: > > To: > From: e-ballot at scn.org > Subject: scna user-services volunteers MOVE to vote 0001 > ================ BEGIN MESSAGE BODY ================= > REPLY WITHIN THREE DAYS TO SECOND THIS MOVEMENT > > First-name Last-name moves that we vote on the following: > > I move that we should abandon holding physical meetings altogether > and henceforth conduct all committee business using e-ballot. > ================ END MESSAGE BODY ================= > > If a reply to e-ballot comes for this message within three days, by > a registered voter, then the message is stored in scna_user-services-moved > and the following message is sent: > > To: > From: e-ballot at scn.org > Subject: scna user-services volunteers CALL to vote 0001 > ================ BEGIN MESSAGE BODY ================= > REPLY BY NEXT SUNDAY (date) AT MIDNIGHT TO VOTE ON THIS > ==> vote on first line of message body > ==> EXAMPLE: vote YEA First-name Last-name PASSWORD > ==> EXAMPLE: vote NAY First-name Last-name PASSWORD > ==> EXAMPLE: vote ABSTAIN First-name Last-name PASSWORD > > First-name Last-name proposed that we vote on the following: > > I move that we should abandon holding physical meetings altogether > and henceforth conduct all committee business using e-ballot. > ================ END MESSAGE BODY ================= > > When the messages are read by e-ballot, messages with "CALL to vote 0001" > in the subject line will be checked for voter validation and the voted will > be counted and stored in scna_user-services-0001. The vote count will be > sent to the "committee" (people in voters_scna_user-services). If duplicates > are received, the last one from any given voter will be accepted -- all > others form that voter will be ignored. If the vote comes after the stated > date and time, the vote will be ignored. If the name/password combo is > wrong, an error message will be sent to the voter, the "vote-master", and the > person who called the vote will be CCed. (No passwords will be ever be sent by > e-ballot.) > > At this point, the e-ballot is complete for that vote. Any action to > be taken will be done so separately by those involved with the issue > voted upon. > > SUMMARY > This voting system would take several hours, probably 40 or more to > program and test. However, it need not be automated. A person > could do all of this work manually, but over time the work involved > would exceed the time to write the program. Also, I encourage everyone > to search the 'net for a program that could perform the same functions, > namely: > > * register voters in a way that would be hard or impossible to "cheat" > * ensure confidentiality > * conduct all voting and other operations entirely by email > * keep accurate and thorough records > * work for many groups, not just one > * clean up after itself :-) > > Personally, I am just barely at the point where I could write such a > program. I know there are other out there whose programming skill > and knowledge far exceeds mine. I encourage anyone who possess such > resources to speak up and take the the challenge. > > Also, if you have a modified or entirely different proposal, let's > hear it! > > --Brian High > Chair, SCNA User Services Committee > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe services > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Sat Dec 19 01:00:05 1998 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 01:00:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: "E-balloting", secrecy, and trust. Message-ID: Barb's concern about the vulnerability of electronic voting to "root" access is somewhat naive: it is the nature of all extant computer operating systems that there is a "superuser"--"root", or its non-Unix equivalent--that can do anything on the system. Which is why computers used in public elections are very stringently secured--and definitely _not_ networked. And why the mere concept of running a _secure_ voting system on SCN is not only contraindicated, but also contradictive. But that concern is also profoundly significant for _voting_ systems. For example, consider a simple ("classic"?) system of paper ballots stuffed (?!) into a ballot box, and then tallied by hand: explicit, and _trusted_, supervision of the system is necessary to prevent all sorts of abuse. The various methods of protection--prior registration of voters, marking voters with indelible ink, having witnesses monitor the processes, etc.--can diffuse the trust required, even make it more accountable, but cannot eliminate it. It's much like entropy: you can push it around into a more convenient place or form, but you cannot avoid it. Same thing with voting systems: slice it, dice it, out-source it, but in the end even the cleverest schemes depend on some kind of trust. Well, sort of. It turns out that trust--more precisely, trusting that someone is doing the "right" thing without opportunity to confirm it with direct observation--is a characteristic of systems with _secret_ elements (like secret balloting). Consider a group where members must cast votes publicly: once the votes are publicly recorded, the results are a "simple matter of arithmetic". _Every_ step is verifiable, so there is no place for the process to be secretly subverted. (And no one need depend on "the government" for the results.) To summarize: any voting system that has a "secret" part, and is therefore not publicly verifiable, must, at some level, rely on trust. And is therefore vulnerable to malfeasance and subversion, regardless of how it is implemented. === JJ ================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Sun Dec 20 00:53:08 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 00:53:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: "e-ballot" -- an alternate proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: JJ makes some good points about e-balloting and COMMITTEE voting. 1. No big need for confidentiality since everyone in a committee generally knows everyone else's position and 2. there is generally no basis for retribution. That works for me ** for COMMITTEE voting. --------------------- However, the main goal is universal voting for the SCNA board, which would be a large-group vote, and one with relatively high stakes. So, 1. Let's try the voting program for some test runs to work out the kinks. (at least for committee voting) 2. Let's look for solutions to the security questions, such as making the return of the e-ballot route to an impartial third party (accounting firm?) 3. IN THE MEANTIME, we can set up the mail-in ballot method (again, to an impartial third party). Let's do it. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Sun Dec 20 01:02:37 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 01:02:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: meeting place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: About the current SCN office: It's pretty inadequate because of (a) uncertainty of meeting space, (b) inadequate access time on weekends, and (c) inadequate working space for volunteers and projects. Isn't it time to get out of that space/contract? ______________________________________________________________________ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Sun Dec 20 05:38:40 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 05:38:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sites of the Week, Dec 21-27 (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:07:52 -0800 (PST) From: Rod Clark To: webmasters at scn.org Subject: Sites of the Week, Dec 21-27 Webmasters, What would you recommend as the SCN Site of the Week and the Seattle Sites of the Week for next week? The public is being bashful about this. Please suggest some local sites that you particularly like, especially ones that we don't yet have on the SCN menus. And if you can, include a few words about why you like them. Rod Clark webadm at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Mon Dec 21 07:43:35 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:43:35 -0800 Subject: "e-ballot" -- an alternate proposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199812211553.HAA02755@scn.org> Rich wrote: > most committee votes would require discussion and so would LIKELY > (not necessarily) be by those present for the discussion. Except that (as you experienced in Outreach) we mostly don't have folks present for discussion at commitee meetings. Which means that these "committee" decisions would be made by maybe 2-4 people. We might pretend that this represents some sort of consensus, but it could be a tough sell... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Mon Dec 21 14:30:43 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:30:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: "e-ballot" -- an alternate proposal In-Reply-To: <199812211553.HAA02755@scn.org> Message-ID: Steven, Steven, Steven, You are correct in reminding us that very few people showed up for the Outreach meetingss, but that is a different problme. It has nothing to do with HOW we vote. Cap;ice? Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Steve wrote: > Rich wrote: > > most committee votes would require discussion and so would LIKELY > > (not necessarily) be by those present for the discussion. > > Except that (as you experienced in Outreach) we mostly don't have > folks present for discussion at commitee meetings. Which means that > these "committee" decisions would be made by maybe 2-4 people. We > might pretend that this represents some sort of consensus, but it > could be a tough sell... > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Mon Dec 21 16:57:35 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:57:35 -0800 Subject: "e-ballot" -- an alternate proposal In-Reply-To: <003101be2d26$197d45c0$0b8795cf@metals.arilabs.com> Message-ID: <199812220107.RAA13694@scn.org> > Any other solutions to this problem? For instance, it would be > great if we could try to have nominations and an election for User > Services chair in the next month or so. That is, elections that are > representative of the whole committee and not just one of the above > groups. Not sure who's on the USC - how is that determined? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Mon Dec 21 17:12:16 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:12:16 -0800 Subject: "e-ballot" -- an alternate proposal In-Reply-To: References: <199812211553.HAA02755@scn.org> Message-ID: <199812220121.RAA17635@scn.org> Rich wrote: > You are correct in reminding us that very few people showed up for > the Outreach meetingss, but that is a different problme. It has > nothing to do with HOW we vote. Perhaps not. But the ongoing debate about committee procedures (voting and otherwise) might almost lead an onlooker to believe we actually have active committees. As opposed to the one or two people who might show up at a meeting, a situation not at all unique to Outreach. Just who are these people who will come out of the woodwork in droves to vote by email, never having been seen before at a committee meeting? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at saltmine.com Mon Dec 21 17:21:32 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:21:32 -0800 Subject: "e-ballot" -- an alternate proposal Message-ID: <01BE2D06.5B7858E0.jmabel@saltmine.com> To which I'd like to add a concern about defining committee membership. The last thing we need is for a group of gadflies who don't get the work themselves done to start telling active committee members what to do. I, for one, try to restrict my input to suggestions, precisely because I'm not volunteering to carry the ball myself. -----Original Message----- From: Steve [SMTP:steve at advocate.net] Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 5:12 PM To: scn at scn.org Subject: Re: "e-ballot" -- an alternate proposal Rich wrote: > You are correct in reminding us that very few people showed up for > the Outreach meetingss, but that is a different problme. It has > nothing to do with HOW we vote. Perhaps not. But the ongoing debate about committee procedures (voting and otherwise) might almost lead an onlooker to believe we actually have active committees. As opposed to the one or two people who might show up at a meeting, a situation not at all unique to Outreach. Just who are these people who will come out of the woodwork in droves to vote by email, never having been seen before at a committee meeting? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb140 at scn.org Mon Dec 21 17:56:06 1998 From: bb140 at scn.org (Barb Weismann) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:56:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: "e-ballot" -- an alternate proposal In-Reply-To: <199812220121.RAA17635@scn.org> Message-ID: RE: (this could) almost lead an onlooker to believe we > actually have active committees. The sole purpose of we the virtual people is to meet in virtual committees to provide a virtual interface for outsiders. We have nearly succeeded. Don't fix what works. Barb > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In > the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on > this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Tue Dec 22 19:36:10 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:36:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: "e-ballot" -- an alternate proposal In-Reply-To: <199812220121.RAA17635@scn.org> Message-ID: Steve does (as usual) spot the very real fly in the gravy. Let's still go forward with the technology and get the voting enabled. However, very quickly, Steve's question will be everyone's question. Re-stating it: "What gives Person X, who never comes to meetings, any validity to be a decision maker by voting." I suspect that functioning commmittees will eventually require some basic level of committment from those it will want to be voters. But, again, that is a separate question from the voting technology function. ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Steve wrote: > Rich wrote: > > You are correct in reminding us that very few people showed up for > > the Outreach meetingss, but that is a different problme. It has > > nothing to do with HOW we vote. > > Perhaps not. But the ongoing debate about committee procedures > (voting and otherwise) might almost lead an onlooker to believe we > actually have active committees. As opposed to the one or two people > who might show up at a meeting, a situation not at all unique to > Outreach. Just who are these people who will come out of the > woodwork in droves to vote by email, never having been seen before > at a committee meeting? > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Tue Dec 22 19:39:56 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:39:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: "e-ballot" -- an alternate proposal In-Reply-To: <01BE2D06.5B7858E0.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: Good point, but don't be bashful. Even if you are overwhelmed in the rest of your life, your well thought out observations are useful. Since I'm busting my belt with heavy e-mail work, I freely take the opportunities to gad flies all over the place. But, we have gotten some very good input from SCN members who do not have time to do a lot of work. (We can get you all to donate huge amounts of cash, though ....(-: ) Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > To which I'd like to add a concern about defining committee membership. > The last thing we need is for a group of gadflies who don't get the work > themselves done to start telling active committee members what to do. I, > for one, try to restrict my input to suggestions, precisely because I'm not > volunteering to carry the ball myself. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve [SMTP:steve at advocate.net] > Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 5:12 PM > To: scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: "e-ballot" -- an alternate proposal > > Rich wrote: > > You are correct in reminding us that very few people showed up for > > the Outreach meetingss, but that is a different problme. It has > > nothing to do with HOW we vote. > > Perhaps not. But the ongoing debate about committee procedures > (voting and otherwise) might almost lead an onlooker to believe we > actually have active committees. As opposed to the one or two people > who might show up at a meeting, a situation not at all unique to > Outreach. Just who are these people who will come out of the > woodwork in droves to vote by email, never having been seen before > at a committee meeting? > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From alboss at scn.org Wed Dec 23 11:24:08 1998 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:24:08 -0800 Subject: ad-based "free" Internet access--here we go again Message-ID: <36814358.4288F1F5@scn.org> This came across the KCLS Netmasters list. Most of us on this list know that this model hasn't worked yet, but it's still good to keep an eye on what's going on around us. I haven't looked into the service at all. Would anyone care to do so and send us a brief review/summary? Best to all, Al ------------- Subject: Free internet access !! Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:21:12 -0800 From: psammead at juno.com (Cary C Thomas) A Puget Sound area organization is providing FREE internet access, meaning advertiser subsidized. Their software is currently for Win95/98, with WinNT & Mac in the future. Check it out, at.... http://www.freei.net Check their service map to see if you are in their area. But they claim to be going nationwide in 1999, so bookmark their web site for future reference. Absolutely no setup charges, or other charges of any kind. You will get a non-removable add banner on your screen while you are connected. The banner goes away when you are not connected. They offer support for speeds up to 56k v.90. Read their FAQ for the info you need to setup you e-mail and newsgroup software (last question in the faq). Let your friends know, who may have a computer & modem, but no current internet connection. If you need help setting up your e-mail and newsgroups in your current software, write me and I will try to help. There have been other "free" internet services in the past, but I think they have all gone out of business. Also, the past services usually required a 1 time setup fee (sometimes $50 to $70 !). I don't know if this service will survive, but at least they are not asking for any money. That's the way it should be. This type of connection, with an ad banner, may interfere with internet gaming, but normal browsing and e-mail should work. Cary Thomas, Seattle. _______________ That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin. --- from The Claw of the Conciliator by Gene Wolfe ________________________________________________________________ Get secure free e-mail that you don't need Web access to use from Juno, the world's second largest online service. Download your free software at http://www.juno.com/getit.b.html. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bkh at arilabs.com Wed Dec 23 11:40:13 1998 From: bkh at arilabs.com (Brian High) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:40:13 -0800 Subject: ad-based "free" Internet access--here we go again Message-ID: <009501be2eac$0fb008c0$0b8795cf@metals.arilabs.com> Al, I took a look. It will not install on WiNT, but will soon. As far as I know there is no Mac support or Win3.x or DOS support, for that matter. They seem to be like juno, but with web also. --Brian -----Original Message----- From: Al Boss To: scn at scn.org Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 11:22 AM Subject: ad-based "free" Internet access--here we go again >This came across the KCLS Netmasters list. Most of us on this list know >that this model hasn't worked yet, but it's still good to keep an eye on >what's going on around us. I haven't looked into the service at all. >Would anyone care to do so and send us a brief review/summary? > >Best to all, > >Al > >------------- > >Subject: Free internet access !! > Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:21:12 -0800 > From: psammead at juno.com (Cary C Thomas) > >A Puget Sound area organization is providing FREE internet access, >meaning advertiser subsidized. Their software is currently for Win95/98, >with WinNT & Mac in the future. > >Check it out, at.... > >http://www.freei.net > >Check their service map to see if you are in their area. But they claim >to be going nationwide in 1999, so bookmark their web site for future >reference. > >Absolutely no setup charges, or other charges of any kind. You will get >a non-removable add banner on your screen while you are connected. The >banner goes away when you are not connected. > >They offer support for speeds up to 56k v.90. > >Read their FAQ for the info you need to setup you e-mail and newsgroup >software (last question in the faq). > >Let your friends know, who may have a computer & modem, but no current >internet connection. > >If you need help setting up your e-mail and newsgroups in your current >software, write me and I will try to help. > >There have been other "free" internet services in the past, but I think >they have all gone out of business. Also, the past services usually >required a 1 time setup fee (sometimes $50 to $70 !). I don't know if >this service will survive, but at least they are not asking for any >money. That's the way it should be. > >This type of connection, with an ad banner, may interfere with internet >gaming, but normal browsing and e-mail should work. > >Cary Thomas, Seattle. >_______________ >That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable >sin. >--- from The Claw of the Conciliator by Gene Wolfe > >________________________________________________________________ >Get secure free e-mail that you don't need Web access to use >from Juno, the world's second largest online service. >Download your free software at http://www.juno.com/getit.b.html. >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * >. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: >majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: >unsubscribe scn >==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== >* * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Wed Dec 23 18:47:16 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:47:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: ad-based "free" Internet access--here we go again In-Reply-To: <36814358.4288F1F5@scn.org> Message-ID: One of the e-mail teachers, Serhan Ipekyun, installed this. He said that if he did not log on through Windows, he avoided the add banner (mentioned below) Unfortunately, he has left for vacation, but maybe he can tell us how he did this when he gets back. ================ On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Al Boss wrote: (snip) > > Subject: Free internet access !! (snip) > > a non-removable add banner on your screen while you are connected. The > banner goes away when you are not connected. > (snip) > > This type of connection, with an ad banner, may interfere with internet > gaming, but normal browsing and e-mail should work. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sipekyun at hotmail.com Wed Dec 23 22:22:49 1998 From: sipekyun at hotmail.com (Serhan Ipekyun) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 22:22:49 PST Subject: ad-based Message-ID: <19981224062250.10407.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, For about one week, I've been using Freei.net service. So far, there is no problem. I can even say that, it's better than my ISP, Foxinternet. As you saw, when you want to get connected to the internet, you should run the client software called freei client. Then a window comes up and doesn't go away or run on background. If you look at My computer/Dial-up Networking, you can see a connection icon called FREENETWORKS. If you run this, you can get connected to Freei.net without any windows! I'm using doing that and it just works. Serhan Ipekyun >> >> Subject: Free internet access !! >(snip) >> >> a non-removable add banner on your screen while you are connected. The >> banner goes away when you are not connected. >> >(snip) >> >> This type of connection, with an ad banner, may interfere with internet >> gaming, but normal browsing and e-mail should work. >> ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Fri Dec 25 01:42:14 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 01:42:14 -0800 Subject: Access costs Message-ID: <199812250951.BAA06135@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes Internet Strikers Protest High Cost of Access Matt Richtel NY Times 12/25/98 In the 1960s, agitated students tuned out. In the 1990s, they are logging off. In order to express their frustration with the high cost of Internet access, students, academics and other cybercitizens around the world have engaged in a series of digital-era protests: they have shut off their modems and darkened their Web pages in daylong boycotts. In recent months, these organized "Internet strikes" have taken place in France, Spain, Germany, the Czech Republic, Poland and China, involving thousands of protesters. "The Internet should be accessible for everyone," said Soeren Frey, a university student in Germany who joined a virtual sit-in there in early November by shutting down his Web site. "We want to force the monopolist to lower the local rates or introduce a special Internet fee." While this is not exactly the idealistic rhetoric of, say, 1960s peacenik revolutionaries, the strikers say there is more at stake than merely a desire to surf the Net and send e-mail. Some say they worry their respective cultures will fall behind in the race for intellectual capital if they do not have widespread, affordable access to the global network. To be sure, the cost of access is higher in some of these countries than in United States, where unlimited access typically costs $19.95 a month. For instance, in France, Internet users pay roughly $16 a month for unlimited access, but that does not include anywhere from $0.70 to $2.50 an hour in local phone charges. Residents of Germany pay a flat rate of $22 a month for Internet access, plus local telephone charges of roughly $3 per hour. Heavy Internet users in Germany can rack up phone bills in the hundreds of dollars each month. Unlike most residents of the United States, consumers in many other countries are charged for local phone calls on a per-minute basis. Organizers in Europe calling themselves the Campaign for Unmetered Telecommunications have set up a Web site to bring various protesters together to call for a "flat rate" for telephone and Internet charges. The group is organizing a European Union "day of action" for some time in 1999. However, representatives of telecommunications companies in France and Germany contend the prices they charge for Internet access are fair. "This is not expensive," said Hans Ehnert, spokesman for Deutsche Telekom, the company that controls much of Germany's telecommunications infrastructure. Deutsche Telekom operates the country's dominant ISP, T-Online, and is a target of the protests. Ehnert said the protesters are just "scholars and pupils" who want access "really cheap all day long." He said that, despite protesters' claims to have orchestrated measurable drops in Internet traffic during their strikes, the boycotts have actually made no difference in Internet use. Still, Ehnert said T-Online, which has 2.5 million subscribers, is "lowering aggressively" its prices. Meanwhile, in France, the telecommunications provider France Telecom has reported little impact from an Internet strike held on Sunday, Dec. 13. Elizabeth Mayeri, spokeswoman for France Telecom, which runs the dominant ISP, Wanadoo, said traffic dropped 10 percent during the strike. Bernard Martin-Rabaud, the general secretary of the Association of Discontented Internet Users, which organized the strike, estimated traffic had dropped 20 to 25 percent. He said the strikers received "strong support" from other ISPs in France, who also wanted to protest the local telephone tariffs. Martin-Rabaud said the organization has been inspired and stays in contact with strikers in other countries. The one-day protest on Sept. 3 in Spain, which some say helped force a reduction in the local telephone tariffs there, "lent us wings," Martin-Rabaud said. He said the media in France widely reported the Internet strikes because of the novelty of the protests. "It was a brand new story to offer their audience," he said. "They spoke a lot about us." This is not the first time Internet users have relied on silence or boycotts as a form of protest. To protest the Communications Decency Act, for instance, the controversial United States legislation that attempted to eliminate "indecency" on the Internet, hundreds of cyberstrikers took down their Web pages in a "blackout" in 1996. However, earlier protests have not had the momentum of the current series of Internet strikes, according to Adam Clayton Powell III, vice president of technology and programs for the Freedom Forum, a free speech organization in Arlington, Va. Powell said the current wave of protests may signal the beginning of a new era of strikes online. "The technique can be used for any variety of grievances," he said. "I've begun to wonder whether this is one of a whole series of not just strikes, but cyber petitions." Meanwhile, outside of the developed world, there is a separate reason why Internet access is not affordable. The problem is not so much that the costs are unusually high, but that the average wage is so low that paying for Internet access is a luxury most people cannot afford, said Martin Burack, executive director of the Internet Society, an Internet standards and policy organization in Reston, Va. "The cost of getting 100 e-mails in some countries in Africa is $30 to $35 a month," he said. "People can spend that money on access, or to feed their families. Those are stark choices." Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Sat Dec 26 00:02:53 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 00:02:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Committee work beyond E balloting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Dec 1998, Rod Clark wrote: (snip) > The ExComm meetings are where everything that costs money is > discussed and made final. The most recent ExComm meeting, on > December 15, was to determine what would and wouldn't be in the > 1999 budget. This is a serious problem. The Excomm committee is an un-elected entity doing the board business, if it is doing budget. Also, as I understand it, the Excomm meetings are NOT open to general members of SCNA or SCN. The board should be meeting once a month, and then there would not be a need for a secretive Excomm meeting. It would not be absurd to note that by moving business and decision-making from the board to the EXcomm meeting, the board has avoided public access to decisions by moving many decisions to a secret and unelected group. It is good that Excomm minutes are published, but that information is after the decisions have been made, so there is no chance for member input or organization. Rich * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Sat Dec 26 02:09:51 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 02:09:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Committee work beyond E balloting (fwd) Message-ID: I would like to propose that the board minutes include the names of which board members voted which way on each item. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Sat Dec 26 02:37:20 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 02:37:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Committee work beyond E balloting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > This is a serious problem. The Excomm committee is an > un-elected entity doing the board business, if it is doing > budget. Also, as I understand it, the Excomm meetings are NOT > open to general members of SCNA or SCN. Rich, If we had an Executive Director, like a normal organization, this discussion might well be moot. But we don't, and unfortunately the Executive Committee has to substitute for an ED. This creates a lot of confusion in people's minds, because the board and ExComm membershps are almost identical. (Only one board member isn't on ExComm, at present.) The board sets policy, does fundraising, and communicates their vision for SCNA. The Executive Director (or in our case the Executive Committee) runs the organization's operations, draws up departmental budgets and staff job descriptions, hires people and assigns them to tasks, reviews their performance, etc. It's normal for an ED to be unelected, since the ED is employed by and serves at the pleasure of the board. When the ED holds a meeting with the organization's staff to hash out operational matters before presenting a plan or budget to the board, such a meeting ordinarily is not a public event. This is the theoretical rationale behind having non-public ExComm meetings. In practice, in SCN's peculiar situation of relying on the goodwill and mutual knowledege exchange of many volunteers for everything it does, this rationale has not worked well and has continually irritated the volunteers. Maybe it should be reviewed and modified further to better suit the volunteer climate at SCN. > It would not be absurd to note that by moving business and > decision-making from the board to the EXcomm meeting, the > board has avoided public access to decisions by moving many > decisions to a secret and unelected group. It is good that > Excomm minutes are published, but that information is after > the decisions have been made, so there is no chance for member > input or organization. This is pretty confused at present. Whatever else can be said about it, I think we can say with some certainty that there isn't yet enough communication with volunteers, about a number of things that people are concerned about. Rod * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From tempting.tear-outs at wolf.net Sun Dec 27 20:28:06 1998 From: tempting.tear-outs at wolf.net (Tempting Tear-Outs) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 00:28:06 -0400 Subject: 050 ===>> FREE 1 yr USA Magazine Sub sent worldwide-200+ Choices! Up to $50.00 value! Message-ID: To be removed from our mailing list, send a blank email message, with the subject of "remove" to: tempting.tear-outs at wolf.net -- FOR MORE INFO: please "cut out" the below form on the "cut" lines shown, and fax it, for the fastest reply to: 1-718-227-9125 (this is a fax # in the USA) or send via smail (first class mail or airmail) to: Tempting Tear-Outs Att. Free-catalogue-by-email Dept 3835 Richmond Ave. Suite #200 Staten Island NY 10312-3828 USA SORRY, BUT.... our software is not set up to accept the below form via return email; WE CAN ONLY acknowledge forms sent in via fax or smail. --> IMPORTANT complete directions, to ensure that you get a reply, and more info follow, below the reply form and the catalogue options. *------------cut here/begin-------------------------------------------* Name (First Middle Last): Internet email address: Smail home address: City-State-Zip: Country: Work Tel. #: Work Fax #: Home Tel. #: Home Fax #: Cellular (Mobile) Tel. #: Beeper (Pager) Tel. #: How did you hear about us (name of person/company who referred you or the area of the internet that you saw us mentioned in): Referred by: Tempting Tear-Outs 0122798-l-aaa Name of USA mags you currently get on the newsstand or in the store: Name of USA mags you currently get on a subscription basis, through the mail: Name of USA mags you would like price quotes on when we call you: Catalogue version desired (list number of choice below): *------------cut here/end--------------------------------------------* CATALOGUE VERSION CHOICES: 1. This version can be read by everyone, no matter what type of computer you use, or what type of software you use. It is a simple format, with just our entire catalogue pasted into the body of a single email message, 316K in size. If you use pine or elm on a unix system or an advanced software version such as Eudora Pro 3.0 or later, you will most likely receive it as a single email message. However, if your software limits incoming email messages to a certain size, say 32K or so, then your software will split it into multiple email message parts. Whether you receive it as a single email message or multiple part email messages, you can easily paste it into one whole text document with your word processor, in about 10 minutes or so. 2. For more advanced computer users: attached plain ascii text file ~316K - you must know how to download an attached text file and then be able to locate it on your hard drive or system home directory; it can then be opened with any pc or mac word processing software. If in doubt, don't ask for this version. This isn't for internet *newbies.* Better to order option 1 and spend a few minutes pasting them into one whole text document with your word processor, than to waste hours trying to figure how to deal with this option. This version is great for doing keyword searches and jumping around within the catalogue with your word processing software, if your normal email reading software doesn't allow this. VERY IMPORTANT DIRECTIONS TO ENSURE THAT YOU GET A REPLY: 1. you must call from an "unblocked number," ie. one that is not blocked from caller id. We are very sorry for this requirement, but our fax software requires this before it allows an incoming fax call to connect. If you have a blocked number, you must first unblock it. In most cases this means dialing *82 from a touch-tone phone (or 1182 from a rotary phone) before you dial 1-718-227-9125. NOTE: If you are not sure if your number is blocked, just try dialing our fax # normally. If you don't get a recording telling you your number is blocked, your number has been transmitted and you may press the start button on your fax when you hear the fax tone from our fax. 2. no reply forms can be accepted by email....only via fax or smail. 3. your form must be typewritten or printed out on your computer printer before you fax it; sorry, but *no* handwritten forms will be acknowledged. If you can't find someone with a typewriter or a computer printer, we apologize for not being able to reply to you. 4. faxes with cover pages will be rejected. You must send *only* the reply form. 5. forms not *completely* filled in will not be acknowledged. 6. you will receive a reply within 1 business day directly from the company making the offer via email. Therefore you must have an email address. If you read this message, then you must have an email address, or access to one, at least. :-) 7. your fax must not exceed 1 page in length. Faxes of 2 or more pages will be sensed, then auto-terminated and deleted. Your fax goes directly onto our 5.0 gigabyte hard drive and we must limit all incoming faxes to 1 page. 8. all faxes must begin with: *------------cut here/begin-------------------------------------------* and must end with: *------------cut here/end--------------------------------------------* 9. Any fax not conforming to this format will be sensed by our software, then auto-terminated and deleted from the hard drive, before any human ever gets to see it. 10. The type on your fax must be dark and legible. If in doubt, please print it out darker before faxing it in. If we can't read it, we can't reply to you or send you our FREE catalogue. :-( 11. If this all seems too complicated for faxing, just do it the old fashioned way via smail!!! WHO WE ARE: Tempting Tear-Outs is an advertising company that brings potential new customers to the companies they advertise for. MORE ABOUT THE COMPANY MAKING THE FREE OFFER: The company making the offer is a magazine subscription agency based in the USA. They have over 1,100 popular USA titles available to be shipped to *any* country, including of course, to anywhere in the USA! They offer a FREE 1 yr. subscription to your choice of over 200 of the titles in their catalogue to any new customer using them for the first time. The dollar value of the freebies, based on the subscription prices directly from the publishers, ranges from $6.97 all the way up to $50.00! For new customers in the USA, there is no charge for FPH (foreign postage & handling), so the freebie is 100% free! For new customers living overseas, the only charge on the freebie would be for the FPH (foreign postage & handling). Their president has been in the magazine subscription business since 1973 and they are very customer-service oriented. They will even help you with address changes on your magazines, even if you move from one country to another country. They have thousands of happy customers in over 59 countries. Their price guarantee is very simple: they guarantee that their subscription prices are the lowest available and they will BEAT any legitimate, verifiable offer before you pay them or match it afterwards, by refunding you the difference in price PLUS the cost of the postage stamp you would use sending in the special offer to them, even 6 months after you pay them, as long as it was current at the time of your offer. Does that sound fair? Wouldn't it be great if everything you bought came with that price guarantee? Sometimes they are less than half of the next best deal out there, sometimes just a little cheaper, but always you get the lowest rates without having to shop around. With 1,100+ titles on their list, they would like to think that they have also the best selection around! Within the USA, for their USA customers, they are cheaper than all their competitors and even the publishers themselves. This is their price guarantee. The 1 yr. freebie that you get with your first order is completely free! Overseas, (even after you factor in the cost of the FPH (foreign postage & handling) and the conversion from USA Dollars to your currency), on the average, they are generally around one-fourth to one-half of what the newsstands overseas charge locally for USA magazines. On some titles they are as little as one-tenth of what the newsstands charge. They are also the cheapest subscription source for delivery overseas, including directly from the publishers themselves! Some publishers don't even offer subscriptions overseas.........but overseas subscriptions are this company's specialty! They feel that magazines should not be a luxury overseas. In the USA, people buy magazines and then toss them after reading them for just a few minutes or hours. They are so cheap in the USA! Well, this company would like to make it the same way for their overseas customers. They are also cheaper than all their competitors in the USA and overseas, including the publishers themselves! It is also *highly unlikely* you will find any of their USA competitors calling you overseas, in order to offer that personal touch, just to sell you a couple of magazines! But that is what this company specializes in and loves doing! Around one-half their business comes from overseas, so they are very patient with new customers who only speak limited English as a 2nd language. Subscription prices quoted for overseas consist of the subscription price, plus the FPH. You add the two together and that is your total cost. The exception is the 1 yr. freebie you get with your first order. On that title, you pay *only* the FPH for the 1 yr. term. Their prices are so cheap because when you deal with them, you cut-out all the middlemen. HERE IS HOW YOU CAN GET MORE INFO AND GET STARTED WITH THEM: Simply fax or smail back to us the reply form listed at the top of this message. We will then forward your form on to the subscription agency. They will then email their "big and juicy" catalogue to you, in whichever of the two formats you chose. The catalogue is FREE and makes for hours of fascinating reading, on its own. It includes the complete list of freebies, a complete list of all the titles they sell, as well as detailed descriptions on most of the titles, along with lists of titles by category of interest and their terms of sale. They will then give you a friendly, no-pressure, no obligation, 5-minute call to go over how they work and to answer any questions that you might have, as well as give you up-to-the minute price quotes on any titles you might be considering. They will call you in whatever country you live in, taking the time difference into account. As they like to emphasize the personal touch they give to each new customer, all first-time orders can only be done via phone, so they can answer all your questions completely and personally. Once you have placed your first order via phone, you will be able to place future orders and make inquiries on your account, get price quotes, etc., all via email, if that is most convenient for you. Within the USA, they accept payment via check over the phone, Mastercard, Visa, American Express, Diner's Club and Carte Blanche. Overseas, they accept Mastercard, Visa, American Express, Diner's Club and Carte Blanche, even if your credit card is a local one in local currency (that most merchants in the USA would not normally be willing to accept). That's our introduction of our client that we represent. We hope that we have piqued your interest and that you will take the next step to get their free catalogue! Thank you for your time and interest. -- Tempting Tear-Outs. For more info on advertising rates, please write us on your company letterhead, w/business card, via smail to: Tempting Tear-Outs, 3835 Richmond Ave. Suite #200, Staten Island NY 10312-3828, USA. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bc500 at scn.org Mon Dec 28 18:25:24 1998 From: bc500 at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 18:25:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Committee work beyond E balloting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is one other point that many people (including Rich) seem to be consistently unclear on. That is the difference between SCNA Board and SCN. I think you allude to this in your discussion Rod...and maybe it needs to be more explicitly stated. SCN is a project of SCNA...admittedly pretty much our only project at this time...EXCom...made up of officers of the board and committee chairs...takes care of the running of the SCN project. Expenditures are recommended by EXCom and presented to the SCNA board for final approval. Any member of SCN or SCNA has input to EXCOM thru involvement with the committees whose chairs are its members. Again...SCNA and SCN are NOT the same thing! This is not just semantics...it is a legal necessity as I understand it. On Sat, 26 Dec 1998, Rod Clark wrote: a long discussion in response to this comment by Rich. > > This is a serious problem. The Excomm committee is an > > un-elected entity doing the board business, if it is doing > > budget. Also, as I understand it, the Excomm meetings are NOT > > open to general members of SCNA or SCN. > > Rich, > > If we had an Executive Director, like a normal organization, > this discussion might well be moot. But we don't, and > unfortunately the Executive Committee has to substitute for an > ED. This creates a lot of confusion in people's minds, because > the board and ExComm membershps are almost identical. (Only one > board member isn't on ExComm, at present.) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Tue Dec 29 09:21:09 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:21:09 -0800 Subject: Email security Message-ID: <199812291730.JAA24128@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes The Looming E-Mail Disaster John C. Dvorak PC Magazine 1/5/99 While Y2K issues are grabbing all the headlines, a bigger and more looming threat to the Internet and to the worldwide business community is the security holes in the Internet, specifically in the e-mail architecture. These problems are so enormous that the system may fail completely in the next few years. Already, numerous e-mail attacks that do all sorts of damage have been unleashed on the public. Various denial-of-service gambits and e-mail bombs are launched by jokers all over the world for cheap laughs. Unfortunately, it's getting easier to create these problems. Any offense whatsoever from a friend or enemy can clog your e-mail box with junk. Even filtering doesn't help, because the junk is so voluminous that the server can be overloaded. Filtering only cleans up the e-mail; it doesn't keep messages from coming in. Aardvark (www.aardvark.co.nz), a New Zealand online publication, describes how easy an e-mail attack is: "The hole is exploited by malevolent Net users when they sign up for a free e-mail account with USA.net then subscribe to the many free e-mail information services offered on the very next page. They can also subscribe to any number of mailing lists and respond to the requests for confirmation before setting up the account to forward all the received e-mail to the mailbox of whomever they choose as their victim." In other words, you set up an e-mail account using a fake name, load up with various junk subscriptions, and then forward all the e-mail to somebody's real mailbox. This is called an "e-mail bomb attack." The POP mail-forwarding feature for free e-mail should be abolished. People would be less likely to pull a stunt like this if it actually cost money. The problem is that these Web-based e-mail systems have to compete on features to keep people coming. Though these issues seem benign now, there's no evidence that they're going to lessen. When you bring this topic up with Net superstars (a.k.a. hackers/security experts), they go into the "Hackers' Ethic" nonsense. Real hackers, they say, are not malevolent, nor are they "crackers." (The terms hacker and cracker have become intertwined, much to the dismay of real hackers.) They go on to say how a real hacker would never pull these pranks, which are considered lame. "Lame" is the worst thing you can call something or someone in this milieu. Superstar computer types who can sneak into any system and trash machines will not do so, out of a regard for a higher ethic. Big deal. It's all the other people who will do the damage. Anyone can e-mail- bomb a boss or ex-girlfriend. But if someone wants to go on the Web to find more elaborate schemes, it takes no more than a few clicks to discover how to do chain bombs, error message bombs, covert distribution, and so-called mail exploder exploitation. All Internet-based mail uses SMTP, usually in combination with a mail transfer agent (MTA). Any weakness in such systems can be exploited. The mail system was not established to protect users, because the Internet had always been a network of trustworthy academics and good folks. No protection was needed. Efficiency was the key. Sendmail, the de facto standard MTA program, is at the heart of Internet mail; elaborate e-mail attacks can be orchestrated using scripts (available on the Net) that exploit the weaknesses of the Internet e-mail system and Sendmail in particular. Besides clogging your mailbox, hackers can easily slander you or your business by using the covert distribution channel technique, whereby a letter under your name and possibly even routed out of your server can be sent to millions of people. The true source of the message is completely hidden if this is done properly. This is more than "spoofing," where you merely change the name on the "From:" line using Eudora. I'm surprised that political dirty-tricksters haven't exploited this technique to create channels of misinformation. (Or maybe they have!) The best document I've seen outlining the emerging worldwide e-mail problem is "E-Mail Bombs and Countermeasures: Cyber Attacks on Availability and Brand Integrity," by Tim Bass et al. (www.silkroad.com/papers/html/bomb). The future of e-mail will be grim, according to the authors, unless the entire system is completely reengineered. Y2K has more priority, but this situation is more dangerous. Y2K will get all the attention while this situation deteriorates. Public-key encryption will help a little in the short term, but this problem is going to worsen if something isn't done immediately. It may already be too late. Copyright (c) 1998 ZDNet * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Tue Dec 29 22:35:23 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 22:35:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rod Makes Sense ** RE: Committee work beyond E balloting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: First Item: Rod's input was very valuable. I grouched about the content, but he does us all a great service by passing on what's being said. Thanks, Rod. Second Item: Who is bc500? At least consider signing your letters. Third Item: I'm not persuaded by bc500's perspective, as I indicate below. ______________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, SCN User wrote: > There is one other point that many people (including Rich) seem > to be consistently unclear on. That is the difference between > SCNA Board and SCN. I think you allude to this in your discussion > Rod...and maybe it needs to be more explicitly stated. SCN is > a project of SCNA...admittedly pretty much our only project at this > time...EXCom...made up of officers of the board and committee > chairs...takes care of the running of the SCN project. I don't understand the relevance of the above. Of course there's a distinction, but what does that have to do with the discussion? > Expenditures are recommended by EXCom and presented to the SCNA board > for final approval. Red flag! Red flag! This requires a lot of good information that is *owned* by only a few. Right here the organization departs from significant input from, or information to, the membership (The S C N A membership, bc500, whoever you are.) THAT's the point. This is in inside operation and most of us are not allowed to be insiders. bc500 (whoever that is) simply does not deal with the fact that S C N A members are not allowed to attend Excom meetings. Let me repeat that for those who missed it: S C N A members are not allowed to attend Excom meetings. All in favor of input from the membership may now leave. (Excom approach) > Any member of SCN or SCNA has input to EXCOM thru involvement > with the committees whose chairs are its members. Again...SCNA and SCN > are NOT the same thing! This is not just semantics...it is a legal > necessity as I understand it. Helloooooo. These S C N A members have ALREADY paid to get membership in S C N A. And one of the things that they are promised by the Promoter mentailities on the board is: voting rights. Ah, but voting rights only for the board members. That might be okay, but the board members meet only quaterly. Excom meets monthly. So these much heralded voting rights we get as S C N A members lose some of their value. And the un-elected Excom chugs busily right along month after month churning out decisions of organizational importance. Again, not only can S C N A members not vote for Excom members, but S C N A members cannot even participate in the dicussions of Excom, nor can S C N A members even observe Excom business. Actually, to me, it makes S C N A membership more like SCN membership. Didn't anyone tell bc500 and Excom and the board that there is supposed to be a difference between S C N A membership and SCN membership? And when bc500 (whoever that is) says any member can have influence by participating on committees WHOSE CHAIRS SIT ON EXCOM, that has to be leading candidate for snake oil salesman/woman of the year. That's like telling women in 1800 America that they could have influence on elections by being in a family whose male members can vote. Let's hear a show of hands/voices who admire THAT type of thinking. Now, of course this is not to say there is an evil plot afoot. But it is to say that processes are being set up, frequently with good intentions, that undermine (1) member input, (2) open flow of information, (3) a spirit of inclusiveness, (4) diversity of input, (5) broad-based membership activity. I could see a subcommittee of the board dealing with budgetary concerns. But it would be in meetings that were open. It's likely that many decisions would come out the same from a closed vs. an open model. However, by adoping a model based on secrecy, you lose all of the five elements mentioned above, and you lose ACCOUNTABILITY. A bad bargain. Yours truly, be718 (I'm hiding) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . 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