From kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org Wed Jul 8 20:55:58 1998 From: kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org (Kurt Cockrum) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:55:58 -0700 Subject: Radio Free Seattle Benefit Party Message-ID: <199807090355.UAA31065@grogatch.seaslug.org> FYI -- support our sister free-media experiments! Benefit Party for Radio Free Seattle Friday, July 10, 9:30pm, $5.00 admission. Elysian Pub, 1221 E. Pike, Seattle. Entertainment: Lefty Loosey Casey Neill Match Less Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence Sorry about the short notice, I just learned of this today... --kurt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at accessone.com Mon Jul 13 00:57:41 1998 From: steve at accessone.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:57:41 -0800 Subject: Linkrot Message-ID: <199807130658.XAA13964@accessone.com> Fighting Linkrot Jakob Nielsen's Alertbox 6/98 6% of the links on the Web are broken according to a recent survey by Terry Sullivan's All Things Web. Even worse, linkrot in May 1998 was double that found by a similar survey in August 1997. Linkrot definitely reduces the usability of the Web, being cited as one of the biggest problems in using the Web by 60% of the users in the October 1997 GVU survey. This percentage was up from "only" 50% in the April 1997 survey. Users get irritated when they attempt to go somewhere, only to get their reward snatched away at the last moment by a 404 or other incomprehensible error message. Even worse, linkrot contributes to dissolving the very fabric of the Web: there is a looming danger that the Web will stop being an interconnected universal hypertext and turn into a set of isolated info-islands. Anything that reduces the prevalence and usefulness of cross-site linking is a direct attack on the founding principle of the Web. Most of this danger comes from attempts to use subscriptions instead of micropayments as a business model, thus erecting barriers to free navigation. Other dangers come from the craze for "portal" sites that guide users based on kickbacks instead of customer value: when links are determined by the size of payments instead of editorial judgment, users get cheated and benefit less from the Web. This is not to say that payments can't flow along links; just that these payments have to be generated by the users. Thus, it is fully ethical for Amazon.com to pay a commission to referring sites for books that users buy after following a link: the point is that payment only happens if the user is satisfied with the link and buys the recommended book. Reducing Outbound Linkrot Since users are irritated by linkrot, it is in your interest to reduce the amount of dead links in your own pages. The overall quality of the user experience strongly influences people's assessment of the credibility and value of a site: if a site doesn't work well, users will abandon it. Not only are dead links disappointing to users, they also rob your users of the value they were supposed to gain from going to the destination site. Remember, that one of the main reasons to include outbound links on a site is that users will credit you with some percentage of the value they gain from the sites you link to: thus, well-selected links enhance the value of your own service with the best of all the Internet has to offer, driving up user loyalty and repeat traffic to your site. The standard advice is to run a link validator on your site at regular intervals. For small sites, it may make sense to outsource validation to a service that will spider your site maybe once a month and email back a list of dead links. For larger sites, it is more cost-effective to install validation software on the server itself. In either case, you need to have processes in place to contact the page authors to have them update or remove the offending links. Let Incoming Links Live Any URL that has ever been exposed to the Internet should live forever: never let any URL die since doing so means that other sites that link to you will experience linkrot. If these sites are conscientious, they will eventually update the link, but not all sites do so. Thus, many potential new users will be met by an error message the first time they visit your site instead of getting the valuable content they were expecting. Remember, people follow links because they want something on your site: the best possible introduction and more valuable than any advertising for attracting new customers. Sometimes Web content becomes truly obsolete. An example would be the advance program and registration form for a conference that has already taken place. In such cases, it makes sense to remove the original page. Even so, the URL should still be kept alive and should be redirected to point to either a follow-up message (e.g., a report from events at the conference) or to a current page that is as close as possible to the original one (e.g., the program for next year's conference). At other times, it becomes necessary to re-architect a site and impose a new structure. Even then, the rule continues to be: you are not allowed to break any old links. The solution is to set up a set of redirects: a scheme whereby the server tells the browser that the requested page is to be found at a new URL. All decent browsers will automatically take the user to the new URL, and really good browsers will even update their bookmark database to use the new URL in the future if the user had bookmarked the old URL. Any time one of your old URLs stop working, you are throwing away business. It is like refusing entry to a shop for anybody who is dressed in last year's fashion. Keep all old pages on your server forever (unless they are truly misleading and are replaced by an update). If moving pages, leave a redirect behind. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From femme2 at scn.org Mon Jul 13 17:08:49 1998 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: McCain bill on Blocking and filtering (fwd) Message-ID: Kind of scary stuff. LP ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:29:57 -0400 From: Jillaine Smith Reply-To: The Up for Grabs Discussion List To: UPFORGRABS-L at cdinet.com Subject: Fwd: McCain bill on Blocking and filtering Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:20:13 -0400 From: Keith Krueger Subject: McCain bill on Blocking and filtering expected on Senate floor-pls. repost To: CoSN Members From: Leslie Haris, CoSN Legislative consultant After a week of trying, Sen. John McCain (R.Ar) has finally secured an agreement to bring S. 1619 to the Senate floor. That is the legislation that would require all E-Rate recipeients to use blocking and filtering software. Early in the week, the Senator sought to get an agreement to bring the bill to the floor under a time agreement that would have allowed for no amendments and only one hour of debate. When Senators objected to that proposal, a new agreement was negotiated that would allow debate not only on S.1619, but on an alternative, expected to be proposed by Sen. Conrad Burns (R.Mo) and others. As I understand it, the Burns alternative requires that all E-rate recipients have Internet Acceptable Use Policies and that those policies address not only access to inappropriate material but behavior in chat rooms and e-mail as well. Fifteen national school and library groups lent a letter to the full Senate late in the week objecting to the McCain bill. A vote is expected in about two weeks Please call your Senators and object to S. 1619.Let them know that schools and libraries can be trusted to make good decisions about how best to guide and structure children's Internet access. The Capitol Switchboard is 202-224-3121. Posted by Leslie Harris on Behalf of the International Society for Technology in Education and the Consortium for School Networking. ------------------------------ To join the Up for Grabs discussion list, email the following command in the body of a message to listserv at cdinet.com subscribe upforgrabs-l YourFirstName YourLastName If at any time you would like to leave the Up for Grabs discussion list, email the following command in the body of a message to listserv at cdinet.com signoff upforgrabs-l If you have any problems with the listserv or any questions about the postings, please direct them to benton at benton.org. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From douglas Wed Jul 15 13:18:35 1998 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: COMMUNITY KIOSKS TASK FORCE CREATED Message-ID: <199807152018.NAA18148@scn.org> >From Nick Licata's URBAN POLITICS e-newsletter. COMMUNITY KIOSKS TASK FORCE CREATED Legislation creating a Community Kiosks Task Force , co-sponsored by Richard Conlin and me, passed unanimously by the Council last week. The task force will advise the Mayor and Council on policy and funding options for providing public kiosks in Seattle neighborhoods. The Task Force will be comprised of fifteen people who represent neighborhood groups, art and music groups, small businesses Chambers of Commerce, City Departments, Metro, the design profession, and kiosk consultants. Task force will provide the City with recommendations, including possible funding strategies and/or pilot projects, and public/private models. To meet this goal, the task force is being asked to review the legal issues involved, coordinate community input, analyze costs and potential revenue sources, and develop policy options and implementation strategies. Members of the task force will attend monthly meetings for six months. Those interested in being considered for the Community Kiosks Task Force wanting to serve on the task force to the Seattle City Council, 11th Floor Municipal Building, 600 Fourth Ave, Seattle, 98104-1876, Attention: Sheila Capestany by August 3rd. Applications may also be submitted via email to: sheila.capestany at ci.seattle.wa.us. City Council Resolution 29782 establishing the task force, can be viewed on the Internet at http://clerk.ci.seattle.wa.us/~public/leghome.htm. ------------- BTW, here are the e-mail addresses of the city council. COUNCIL MEMBER E-MAILS Sue.Donaldson at ci.seattle.wa.us Richard.McIver at ci.seattle.wa.us Jan.Drago at ci.seattle.wa.us Tina.Podlodowski at ci.seattle.wa.us Margaret.Pageler at ci.seattle.wa.us Martha.Choe at ci.seattle.wa.us Peter.Steinbrueck at ci.seattle.wa.us Richard.Conlin at ci.seattle.wa.us Nick.Licata at ci.seattle.wa.us * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Mon Jul 20 08:24:36 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:24:36 -0800 Subject: DOS Message-ID: <199807201425.HAA02038@accessone.com> (Note browser for 386-40 with 4MB RAM) ================================ New Life for DOS? Jesse Berst, Editorial Director, ZDNet AnchorDesk What if I told you that I knew what would be the most talked-about operating system in 1999? What if I told you it would be DOS? The same aging operating system that preceded Windows. That's been all but abandoned by Microsoft. Consider this. Since 1997, Orem, UT-based Caldera, Inc. has sold 3,000,000 copies of DR-DOS -- an MS-DOS compatible operating system acquired from Digital Research by way of Novell. And repositioned DR-DOS for a market at least 10 times larger than the personal computing world. I am referring to the market for small devices that connect to a network -- to an intranet or to the Internet itself. Examples include smart phones, set-top boxes, personal digital assistants, cash registers, factory automation, process control, avionics, handhelds, kiosks, pay-at-the-pump, airline entertainment, security panels, photocopiers, fax machines, game machines, calculators, medical and laboratory measurement, palmtops, organizers and network computers. Starting to see why this market could explode in the next five years? Consider what Caldera has added to DR-DOS. A graphical Web browser that can run on a 40 Mhz 386 with just 4 MB of RAM ODI-based networking Multitasking TCP/IP, HTTP and FTP POP3 and SMTP Year 2000 support Power management Compression (can turn a 4 MB Flash ROM into 8 MB) This is not your father's disk operating system! Features like these explain why DR-DOS has real benefits to hardware and software makers who want to attack the "embedded systems" market. It's a tremendously compact way to access the Internet, especially when compared with Windows CE. And it's a robust, tested system with hundreds of proven tools and thousands of experienced programmers. With this in mind, here are four areas where DR-DOS has a chance. In order of likelihood: Refurbished computers. Older 386 and 286 computers still use DOS. Caldera's DR-DOS can give them a browser so they can be used to surf the Net. Bonus: Some great games still run on DOS. This is an obvious, easy market for DR-DOS, but not one that has growth potential. Embedded systems. DR-DOS has lots of advantages here, but it also has dozens of competitors. Company executives claim they will soon announce "big-name" partnerships for set-top boxes, smart phones and airline entertainment. We'll see. Thin client computing. Since it can run a browser in 4MB, a DR-DOS-based device could be the ultimate low-cost network computer, costing as little as $100. Caldera is working to add support for both Java and Windows Terminal Server. In theory, DR-DOS-based terminals could display Java and Windows apps running on the server. Handheld systems. To win in this market, Caldera would have to convince OEMs not to move to Windows CE. The company's only realistic chance is at the very low end, where its low memory requirements can save money. In the PC world, Windows NT 5.0 will be the story of 1999. But there's another market that -- in the long term -- may be even more important than personal computing. In that space, the operating system of the year could prove to be a revamped, reconstituted version of venerable old DOS. Copyright (c) 1998 ZDNet. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Mon Jul 20 09:32:19 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:32:19 -0800 Subject: Dull = good Message-ID: <199807201533.IAA08770@accessone.com> Users Are Choosing Information Over Entertainment on the Web Jared Sandberg The Wall Street Journal 7/20/98 >From the moment the World Wide Web began to emerge as the first new mass medium in a generation, legions of companies started spending millions of dollars trying to turn it into the premier entertainment stage for the next century. Soon, computer screens were serving up a crude version of the "interactive television" that media mavens had been promising for a decade: on-line news and sports, on-line soap operas and TV guides, on-line interviews with prime-time stars, Webzines on pop culture and music. The major broadcast networks set up their own sites as outposts for promotion and news. Microsoft Corp. divvied up its on-line fare into "channels" containing "shows" -- usually with little more than text, still pictures and a bit of sound. Most of these efforts have been a costly and vexing flop, mainly because the industry's vision for the medium has outraced technological capabilities. Personal computers remain too poky at downloading even still images from the Web, much less the full-motion video and sound that consumers expect. Profits have been nonexistent, and "viewers" have been scarce relative to other entertainment media. That has many Web veterans wondering whether they got it wrong: Maybe the medium isn't about entertainment. Maybe it is less like the television and more like the telephone: a convenient means for communicating and for retrieving information. With the ubiquitous exception of pornography, which exploits the medium's advantages of ready access and privacy, the Web has proved most useful to consumers for practical uses such as free e-mail services, on-line Yellow Pages, used-car price guides, maps with driving directions and the like. Some of these dull-data sites are even achieving that rarity on the Web: profits. "It's a mistake to treat the Internet as an entertainment medium," says Ed Bennett, who was president of the VH-1 cable channel for five years and became president of Prodigy Inc. in 1995, hoping to add TV savvy to the on-line service. It soon became clear that downloading video and music on the Web was like "pulling an elephant through a straw," he says. He invested $800,000 early on in Stim, an edgy pop-culture Webzine that included articles such as "Caught Up: The Tragedy of Bungee Jumping in a Thong." But Prodigy executives weren't convinced that even this largely text-based effort would work, and the company sold Stim back to its creators for a dollar early last year. It hasn't put out an issue in nearly a year. Hip Isn't Enough Even simple, text-based entertainment outlets that don't require speedy connections have had a hard time. Turner Network Television's Spiv went defunct, and in recent months, well-regarded sites Word and Charged have been forced to seek financial rescue. Text-based soaps have faltered, too, such as the East Village, a site sponsored by Time Warner Inc. that delved into the lives of tattooed, self-absorbed "twentysomethings." Other sites that manage to draw people, such as multiplayer game sites, do so by letting users communicate with each other, rather than simply entertain themselves. The Web, which first appeared in 1993 as a graphics-and-pictures overlay of the Internet, is far too young for its entertainment potential to be dismissed outright. In the next few years, consumers could get speedier hookups to the Web via souped-up phone lines, wireless and satellite links and superfast modems hooked to cable-TV wires. Such improvements might enable the redistribution of traditional forms of entertainment on the Web. Even now, faith in the Web's entertainment potential springs skyward: On Friday, an initial public offering of shares of Broadcast.com Inc., a Dallas-based outfit that uses the Web to transmit video and radio coverage of sports events and speeches, began trading at $18 and then soared to close at $62.75. Many experts, however, say it could be five to 10 years before the delivery system catches up to the entertainment hype. "Until the technical limitations change, it's never going to be an entertainment medium," says James Docherty, the new-media president at Hachette Filipacchi Magazines, a unit of Paris-based Lagardere SCA. Until then, utility is in. Need to book a flight or find a stock quote? One of the Internet's strengths is its ability to help consumers find the right needle in a digital haystack of data. News, stock quotes and sports scores are among the most popular categories of on-line content. The Big Hurdle Just one drawback: So far, consumers can perform an array of convenience tasks without paying a cent. For now, most dull-data Web sites rely on revenue from display ads as customers grab the information they want, or they count on intangible financial returns in the form of cost savings. But for some, that still may not be enough, and persuading consumers to pay for the privilege of using their on-line services remains a challenge. The Weather Channel's Web site isn't exactly a trove of fast-paced action and suspense. But it tells you whether you should carry an umbrella today -- and it draws more traffic than CBS's "cbs.com" and ABC's "abc.com" sites combined. Its traffic has more than doubled in each of the past two years, and now nearly four million people visit each month, according to Relevant Knowledge Inc., Atlanta, which tracks Web traffic. The Weather Channel's numbers place it among the 30 most-popular outposts in a sea of roughly 10 million Web sites and counting. (All references to site visitor numbers and rankings in this article come from Relevant Knowledge.) The Web also is an ideal medium for comparison shopping by allowing users to sift through far-flung data that can be instantly combined at the click of a mouse. Jerry Kaplan, chief executive of on-line auction house Onsale Inc., went tire-kicking on-line for new cars recently and bought two. "In a matter of 30 minutes, we were able to do research that would have taken us several weeks," he says. "For me, the computer is a tool, not a toy." Some businesses simply are better suited to the on-line environment. Scanning classified ads in the newspaper can rob a person of valuable time; on the Web, classified advertising is a natural, allowing people to speedily reach beyond their local markets to check out cars, collectibles, even jobs. Junglee Corp., a closely held start-up in Sunnyvale, Calif., creates databases that combine the content of myriad rival sites touting, say, job listings, to let people scan multiple data sources without having to visit each individual destination. This easy pinpointing of data drives the traffic swamping the Web site of Kelley Blue Book Co. The closely held Irvine, Calif., company operates one of the most graphically monotonous sites on the Internet: Used-car pricing information. The Blue Book site, which went up in early 1996, is one of the fastest-growing on the Web, tripling its audience in the past year to 1.5 million users. Kelley says the site already is turning a profit, even though it spent less than $5 million on the service. It takes in revenue by selling ads, selling customer referrals to marketers such as Microsoft and NationsBank, and renting out the company's used-car data to sites run by Ameritech Corp., Knight-Ridder Inc. and others. A Reason to Visit The average Internet user "would have little or no interest in going to our site," says Kelley's director of marketing, Stephen Henson. "But when it's time to put your car up for sale or buy a new one, we're indispensable." Mr. Henson uses on-line resources himself to arrange the two or three trips he takes a month. On the Internet, he finds information on air fares and hotel rates that wasn't readily available to him before. "All of that previously had to be done over the phone in a very tedious way," says Terrell Jones, chief information officer of Sabre Group, majority-owned by AMR Corp. Sabre's travel-booking site, Travelocity, gets roughly two million visitors a month. Users are drawn to features that aren't easily available off-line. For instance, Travelocity will send users a pager message if their flight is delayed. Even more popular, airlines and travel sites send e-mail notification when fare discounts kick in for a specified destination. "You couldn't do that in the physical world," Mr. Jones says. "You couldn't say, call me when the fare changes." Travelocity says it racked up more than $100 million in gross ticket sales last year, making it the 51st-largest travel agency in the U.S., among 30,000, after just two years of business. It expects to double sales this year as it adds 250,000 new customers a month to the site's three million registered users, which is run with just 80 employees. The Web service still faces a long journey before becoming profitable, though. Only 5% to 10% of its visitors buy a ticket through the site; the rest plow through flight times and pick up the telephone. Custom-Made and Free Travelocity earns fees from ticket sales, but most other sites make their wares available without charging consumers a dime. The Mapquest site, run by GeoSystems Global Corp., ranks as the 17th most-visited site on the Web, welcoming more people than Walt Disney Co.'s, which recently ranked a respectable 35th. Mapquest and its 35 employees lure more than five million people a month; enter the departure and destination data, and the service draws a custom-made map ready for printing. But while people readily pay for a map at the gas station, Mapquest fears they won't do so on the Web. "I'm not sure what the consumer tolerance would be for paying for this type of service at this time," says Mapquest's chief operating officer, James Thomas. Mapquest takes in money by licensing its mapping services to other Web sites and selling advertising on its own site. It is considering whether to charge for additional trip-planning features, which would be aimed at business users rather than consumers. A few companies are trying to charge their customers directly, with some signs of success. Dun & Bradstreet Corp. runs a Web site for credit reports on businesses, charging users up to $85 for a report or a monthly subscription fee of $25 for unlimited access. The information company has barely advertised the service but now sells 100,000 reports a month, and the number is growing 30% a month. That puts the Web effort "several million dollars" in the black, says Barbara McCoy, an assistant vice president at D&B. Consumer Reports magazine began offering on-line subscribers access to its ratings of appliances and other products this year, charging them $2.95 a month, or up to $24 for annual subscriptions. More than 100,000 paying customers have signed up in just seven months. Still, the likelihood that consumers will balk at paying leads many Web watchers to say the real returns from sleep-inducing data services lie in efficiency. In the near term, "cost savings is where all the immediate return on investment is. Revenue generation is the after-the-fact gravy," says Mike James, a vice president at Federal Express Corp. FedEx now runs one of the more popular -- and dullest -- sites on the Web, receiving 1.7 million package-tracking requests a month. The company figures 40% of that traffic would have dialed an 800 number to do the same thing, and consultants say handling each call typically costs about a dollar. The Web site saves FedEx up to $8 million a year in customer-support costs. Likewise, Cisco Systems Inc. uses its corporate Intranet to buy everything from landscaping services to hand tools and paper clips. The system has "no sex appeal," concedes Carolyn DePalmo, procurement automation manager at Cisco. But it cost only about $5 million to set up, and Cisco can save that sum within a year by cutting the cost of each procurement from $150 off-line to just $10 on-line. The Phone Book Is Hot Even some executives at entertainment companies are taking note. At Time Warner's Pathfinder site, the "bread and butter" is information that changes fast, like stock quotes and sports scores, says Daniel Okrent, new-media editor at Time Inc. "News for us has been growing much faster than what you'd call entertainment," he says. "The telephone book is a lot more popular than any John Grisham bestseller." Indeed, phone books become easy-to-read search engines when they are put on-line, serving up a hard-to-find number in seconds. Four11 Corp., a unit of Yahoo! Inc., routinely draws more viewers than Web outposts from major media companies such as the CNN news channel and ESPN's Sportszone. Four11 offers phone numbers, e-mail addresses and free e-mail accounts to almost five million visitors a month. What's so cool about that? "It's not cool, it's just frigging useful," says Jeff Mallett, Yahoo's chief operating officer. "Period. End of story. God bless it." Copyright c 1998 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Tue Jul 21 09:55:59 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:55:59 -0800 Subject: Unix Linux stuff Message-ID: <199807211557.IAA03320@accessone.com> Liz Enbysk, Managing Editor, ZDNet AnchorDesk 7/21/98 INTERGRAPH PROMISES WORKSTATION REVOLUTION The company announced a new 3D graphics technology it claims will dramatically advance the computer graphics industry -- bumping performance of NT-based graphics workstations five to 10 times over anything that exists today. Based on Intergraph's new ParaScale architecture, the Wildcat 3D Graphics Technology not only promises a 10x performance boost, it is also highly scalable. Until now, most major workstation advances have been in Unix machines and the competition has been Hewlett-Packard. If Intergraph can deliver what it's promising -- and the first systems won't ship until the end of the year -- it could knock Unix workstations out of the ring since the Intergraph machines have the advantage of commodity-priced Windows hardware. LINUX GAINS MORE SUPPORT The list of companies backing Linux, the open source operating system, continues to grow. Oracle is planning a Linux port of its database. Rival Informix will announce a gradual port to Linux -- starting with a database product and tools. And Computer Associates is working on a port of its relational database. Copyright (c) 1998 ZDNet * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From nancyk at scn.org Tue Jul 21 21:17:57 1998 From: nancyk at scn.org (NancyK) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reminder: SCN General mtg 7/22 Message-ID: Hi, Just a reminder that this is one of those "funny" months with 5 wednesdays; our General meeting is always on the 4th wednesday of the month. See you *this* Wednesday night at the University Branch Library basement meeting room at 50th and Roosevelt Way NE. (Try to carpool or find street parking so as not to disrupt the regular library patrons) 7pm until about 8:30 or so, although some folks may elect to go out for refreshments afterwards. :) Nancy * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Sat Jul 25 10:30:56 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:30:56 -0800 Subject: The Well - the good ol' days.... Message-ID: <199807251632.JAA24136@accessone.com> The Well Shrinks as Its Children Grow Matt Richtel NY Times 7/25/98 The Well, the pioneering online community of intellectuals and writers that helped define the concept of the virtual village, faces declining membership at a time when many of the electronic forums that it inspired are booming. But Well officials and members say their small corner of cyberspace is as resilient as ever, having survived many predictions of its imminent demise over the years. "It's far too soon to be writing any obits," said Bruce Koball, a long-time Well member. "All the ones that have been written in the past are untrue." Founded in March 1985, long before there was a Web, the Well is known as a place for discussion among contentious, impassioned and sometimes self-important digerati. Its Sausalito, Calif., location gives it a distinct San Francisco Bay Area flavor. It's likely that most of the millions of people who now populate cyberspace have not heard of the Well, but they have been touched by its legacy. Because of the intense sense of community generated by its discussion groups, the Well has been a model for other companies hoping to create online gathering places. Its imitators include Geocities, the Globe and the mighty America Online. Those communities are growing exponentially, while the Well may be stagnating at best. It now has 7,500 members, down from a peak of 10,000 a year ago, company officials said. An undisclosed number of its accounts are provided free of charge. Published reports have said the Well loses 400 members a month, but the company disputes that number. Officials declined to specify how membership levels are changing. "We're not big into statistics," said Claudia Stroud, a director of the Well. Meanwhile, the company's president, Maria Wilhelm, and its director of marketing quit earlier this year, leaving the Well with a staff of six. The situation has prompted some Well members to question the long-term viability of the operation. Critics say the Well failed to capitalize on its early lead in the online business because it did not invest in marketing the service or upgrading it to incorporate new technologies. They also charge that the Well lacked a clear business direction. Now it may be too late for the Well to take advantage of the cachet surrounding its name and grow into a viable business entity. Company officials said they have not neglected the Well's discussion groups, but they did acknowledge that they have been more focused on other parts of the business, namely an Internet access service and software development components. "Now we're really turning our attention back," Stroud said, noting that the company is exploring various business possibilities. "There are a lot of different logical extensions to the Well brand," she said. "but I wouldn't want to speculate as to what they might be." Stroud did confirm that Bruce Katz, the company's owner, has said he will consider selling it. The Well charges $10 a month for access to its discussions through its Web site. For $15, it sells a package that includes an e-mail address and the ability to create a private discussion, among other perks. Many Web sites charge nothing for access to discussion groups and chats. But Well members say that the exclusivity, the small scale and the sense of community on the service lead to better discussions. There is a sense on the Well's 50,000 discussion groups, many of which are not currently active, that it is not a place for the kind of unchecked, mindless insults characteristic of some other online forums. When Stewart Brand created the Well, his idea was to invent a forum for high-level electronic dialogue. He believed passionately in free speech, but also in the proviso that people had to take responsibility for what they posted -- thus his motto, "You own your own words." Another lasting contribution Brand made was to give free accounts to some writers, intellectuals and journalists. As a result, word of the Well and its influential membership spread far beyond its immediate circles -- perhaps giving it a buzz that was not in proportion to its size. The Well has never been a particularly lucrative business, and profits have been sporadic and small. There were constant equipment and technology problems, and there was never enough funding for the Well to keep pace. Katz, the man who built and sold the Rockport shoe empire and had been a Well member since 1989, bought half of the Well for $175,000 in 1991. In January 1994, he purchased the other half for $750,000. He also began investing in infrastructure and new offices; Well membership had grown to 8,000. Some credit him with saving the company. In 1996, Katz hired Wilhelm as president. Under her direction, the Well split into three parts; the Well conferences; a software company called Well Engaged that markets the discussion software used on the service; and Whole Earth Networks Inc., an Internet Service provider. Well Engaged continues to grow, said Stroud, noting that among the 40 companies that license its conferencing software are The Wall Street Journal Interactive, The Los Angeles Times and Netscape. Meanwhile, Katz this year sold Whole Earth Networks for $9 million to GTS Telecomm. Stroud said the Well itself is "profitable," but she declined to elaborate. Others who are familiar with company operations said that, if there is a profit, it is small. "The Well is vibrant, the loyal conference participants are still there and the company is profitable at a time when few other Internet companies are," Stroud said. Stacy Horn, founder of the New York-based online community Echo, said she empathizes with the Well's circumstances. The membership of Echo, which was patterned after the Well and is often cited as its East Coast equivalent, has been flat for the last year at about 3,500. Horn blamed the lack of growth on the fact that Echo has not yet implemented a Web-based discussion system, and is only accessible through an antiquated text-based interface. Horn believes the Well has suffered because it has not fully integrated new technology into the Well discussion software. For example, Horn said, it does not yet offer instant messaging that allows members to communicate in pairs as well as in larger discussion groups. "Both the Well and I have to do something," Horn said. "If we do nothing, we may die." She added, however, that Echo and the Well offer a level of interaction and discourse not seen elsewhere on the Internet. It is an intellectual asset that Well fans frequently cite: they say that as long as people want thoughtful conversation online, the Well will have a place. Perhaps, they suggest, this is not a place for the masses anyway. Ironically, as turbulent as its business operations have been, the community inside the Well has had a notably stable year, said several long-time Well members. Fred Heutte, a Well member since 1987, said conversations remain energetic and informed, and the community is intact despite the business machinations. At the same time, the members do not dispute that the forum can be unkind to the Well's leadership, skeptical about the company's direction and ever-wary of the future. In short, it's their party and they can whine if they want to. "It's the Well. There's always somebody complaining," said Noah Johnson, a Well member and the son of the company's founder. "We're a crabby bunch of smart people." Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From allen at scn.org Sun Jul 26 03:54:57 1998 From: allen at scn.org (allen) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 03:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: was (RE: ispell findings...) now...making changes In-Reply-To: <000501bdb775$5ec271e0$0f02000a@contsrv.paydata> Message-ID: I agree with Chanh. we do not have state secrets to protect...nor the luxury of a big budget for testing...or lots of expert bodies for doing the testing. In the meantime...our users are the ones who are suffering... and I thought THEY were why we are here! On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Chanh Ong wrote: > Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:38:56 -0700 > From: Chanh Ong > To: hardware at scn.org > Subject: RE: ispell findings... > > I think Bob has done enough testing and I also done some testing my and > I have not run across any more issue. > > If you have any specific reason, let hear it. > > Thanks > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-hardware at scn.org [mailto:owner-hardware at scn.org]On Behalf Of > > John Johnson > > Sent: Friday, July 24, 1998 1:48 AM > > To: hardware at scn.org > > Subject: RE: ispell findings... > > > > > > > > On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Chanh Ong wrote: > > > > > If I do not recieve any objection in a week, I will assume it > > will be put in > > > for Freeport user to have a better speller. > > > > WRONG APPROACH! We need to _determine_ whether that is a suitable thing > > to do. It needs to be TESTED. (And I mean _tested_, not just played > > around with a little while.) If we are not going to do this properly, > > then I object to putting it in. > > > > === JJ ================================================================= > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe hardware > > END > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe hardware > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From douglas Mon Jul 27 14:01:37 1998 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: community networking and ... Message-ID: <199807272101.OAA26877@scn.org> Here is news from Shava in Eugene. As you may recall they're having some IRS trouble about their non-profit status. -- Doug PS. SCNA is an organizational member of AFCN and Joel Ware from SCNA attended the San Jose meeting. Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:24:08 -0800 From: shava at efn.org (Shava Nerad) To: afcn-members at lists.colorado.edu Subject: Community Networking and the IRS Those of you who made it for the San Jose meeting got a taste of the complicated issues surrounding OPN's and Community Networking's struggle to enlighten the IRS about commmunity networking. For lots more information, please check out www.opn.org. I'd particularly like to point out these sections: www.opn.org/cn/afelogo.html -- join our web-badge campaign to support Internet access for everyone! www.opn.org/irs/toolkit.html -- be a local activist getting congressional, media, and grassroots attention to the advocacy of community networking I'll be helping (I think! Richard?) with the Virtual Civicnet conference on Community Networks and the IRS. Check it out to learn yet more! ;) Remember, AFCN members get 1/3 off registration, only $50 for 3 weeks of community. I had a great time in San Jose, and I'm looking forward to more AFCN action in the future. As the convener of the Public Policy Working Group, I'd like to invite any AFCN members who'd like to make public policy issues (IRS, E-Rate, TIIAP funding, PUC issues,...) a priority in your involvement to get up with me, and we'll be meeting virutally in August. If you link to our website, please just drop me a line so we know who's out there! Thanks! Shava Nerad (all original matls (c) 1998, Shava Nerad) General Manager, OPN/efn shava at efn.org, /* my opinions */ Information is Power -- Keep the Poor on the Net! Send a check to: OPN Legal Defense Fund, 448 Charnelton, Eugene, OR, 97401 (memo:OPN LD) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:46:38 -0800 From: shava at efn.org (Shava Nerad) To: afcn-members at lists.colorado.edu Subject: correction on Community Networking and the IRS > www.opn.org/cn/afelogo.html -- join our web-badge campaign to > support Internet access for everyone! > www.opn.org/irs/toolkit.html -- be a local activist getting > congressional, media, and grassroots attention to the > advocacy of community networking oops! That's www.opn.org/irs/toolkit/ -- sorry! Thanks! Shava Nerad (all original matls (c) 1998, Shava Nerad) General Manager, OPN/efn shava at efn.org, /* my opinions */ Information is Power -- Keep the Poor on the Net! Send a check to: OPN Legal Defense Fund, 448 Charnelton, Eugene, OR, 97401 (memo:OPN LD) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bk846 at scn.org Wed Jul 29 17:13:50 1998 From: bk846 at scn.org (Bill S) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: was (RE: ispell findings...) now...making changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Allen (et al); The ispell spell check program has been used @speakeasy.org for at least a year and seems to work well there. Perhaps we could make use of their experience with this program. They are running a SUN Unix system similar to ours except for the Freeport software and they are using Pine and PICO in, I think, the same versions we use on SCN. If someone from hardware wants to contact them I'd suggest Mike Apgar(mike at speakeasy.org), Doug Brick (dbrick at speakeasy.org) or their help desk (support at speakeasy.org). Don't know if there are any political implications here but I think they'd be at least willing to share any problems that may have been associated with .ispell.english. They seem to be using it with no obvious problems and after all the worst they can say is "NO". Bill Scott On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, allen wrote: > I agree with Chanh. we do not have state secrets to protect...nor the > luxury of a big budget for testing...or lots of expert bodies for doing > the testing. In the meantime...our users are the ones who are suffering... > and I thought THEY were why we are here! > > On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Chanh Ong wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:38:56 -0700 > > From: Chanh Ong > > To: hardware at scn.org > > Subject: RE: ispell findings... > > > > I think Bob has done enough testing and I also done some testing my and > > I have not run across any more issue. > > > > If you have any specific reason, let hear it. > > > > Thanks > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-hardware at scn.org [mailto:owner-hardware at scn.org]On Behalf Of > > > John Johnson > > > Sent: Friday, July 24, 1998 1:48 AM > > > To: hardware at scn.org > > > Subject: RE: ispell findings... > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Chanh Ong wrote: > > > > > > > If I do not recieve any objection in a week, I will assume it > > > will be put in > > > > for Freeport user to have a better speller. > > > > > > WRONG APPROACH! We need to _determine_ whether that is a suitable thing > > > to do. It needs to be TESTED. (And I mean _tested_, not just played > > > around with a little while.) If we are not going to do this properly, > > > then I object to putting it in. > > > > > > === JJ ================================================================= > > > Bill S bk846 at scn.org "Warning:Dates on the calendar billhs at speakeasy.org are closer than they appear." ****Unless otherwise stated, this message may be forwarded***** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From chanh at scn.org Wed Jul 29 17:21:06 1998 From: chanh at scn.org (Chanh Ong) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:21:06 -0700 Subject: was (RE: ispell findings...) now...making changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bdbb4f$f1cd0e40$0f02000a@contsrv.paydata> Thanks to Bob H. has done most of the research, and there are no major objection from the group. I have enable the ispell this week. Thanks > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Bill S > Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 5:14 PM > To: allen > Cc: hardware at scn.org; scna-board at scn.org; excom at scn.org; scn at scn.org; > Chanh Ong > Subject: Re: was (RE: ispell findings...) now...making changes > > > Hi Allen (et al); > > The ispell spell check program has been used @speakeasy.org for at least a > year and seems to work well there. Perhaps we could make use of their > experience with this program. They are running a SUN Unix system similar > to ours except for the Freeport software and they are using Pine and PICO > in, I think, the same versions we use on SCN. > > If someone from hardware wants to contact them I'd suggest Mike > Apgar(mike at speakeasy.org), Doug Brick (dbrick at speakeasy.org) or their help > desk (support at speakeasy.org). > > Don't know if there are any political implications here but I think they'd > be at least willing to share any problems that may have been associated > with .ispell.english. They seem to be using it with no obvious problems > and after all the worst they can say is "NO". > > Bill Scott > > On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, allen wrote: > > > I agree with Chanh. we do not have state secrets to protect...nor the > > luxury of a big budget for testing...or lots of expert bodies for doing > > the testing. In the meantime...our users are the ones who are > suffering... > > and I thought THEY were why we are here! > > > > On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Chanh Ong wrote: > > > > > Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:38:56 -0700 > > > From: Chanh Ong > > > To: hardware at scn.org > > > Subject: RE: ispell findings... > > > > > > I think Bob has done enough testing and I also done some > testing my and > > > I have not run across any more issue. > > > > > > If you have any specific reason, let hear it. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: owner-hardware at scn.org > [mailto:owner-hardware at scn.org]On Behalf Of > > > > John Johnson > > > > > Sent: Friday, July 24, 1998 1:48 AM > > > > To: hardware at scn.org > > > > Subject: RE: ispell findings... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Chanh Ong wrote: > > > > > > > > > If I do not recieve any objection in a week, I will assume it > > > > will be put in > > > > > for Freeport user to have a better speller. > > > > > > > > WRONG APPROACH! We need to _determine_ whether that is a > suitable thing > > > > to do. It needs to be TESTED. (And I mean _tested_, not > just played > > > > around with a little while.) If we are not going to do > this properly, > > > > then I object to putting it in. > > > > > > > > === JJ > ================================================================= > > > > > Bill S > bk846 at scn.org "Warning:Dates on the calendar > billhs at speakeasy.org are closer than they appear." > ****Unless otherwise stated, this message may be forwarded***** > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bk846 at scn.org Wed Jul 29 17:51:32 1998 From: bk846 at scn.org (Bill S) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: was (RE: ispell findings...) now...making changes In-Reply-To: <000001bdbb4f$f1cd0e40$0f02000a@contsrv.paydata> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Chanh Ong wrote: > Thanks to Bob H. has done most of the research, and there are no > major objection from the group. I have enable the ispell this week. > > Thanks Hi Chanh; There seems to be a problem. I tried to use the ispell program with a Pine message and it worked fine with correcting the spelling but when it got done and said "alternate speller done" everything disappeared. I have used Pine with ispell on Speakeasy Network for a long time so it isn't something new to me but I've never had this problem before. Probably something minor in the setup but erasing the new message isn't quite what I was looking for. Good luck finding whatever it is . Bill S bk846 at scn.org "Warning:Dates on the calendar billhs at speakeasy.org are closer than they appear." ****Unless otherwise stated, this message may be forwarded***** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From douglas Thu Jul 30 11:14:29 1998 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gary Chapman, Community Networks, and Community Policing Message-ID: <199807301814.LAA26327@scn.org> FYI and possible input... If you have any suggestions for Gary please let him know. It would be nice to be working on some of these themes locally.... -- doug [posted originally by Gary Chapman to communet] > Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:42:20 +0100 From: Gary Chapman Subject: Community Networks and Community Policing To: COMMUNET at list.uvm.edu I'm going to be speaking at an international conference on community policing, called "Beyond the Rhetoric: Facing the Challenges of Community Policing," in Chicago August 11-14. I'll be addressing the potential interface between community networks and community policing, to an audience of about 750 senior police officials from all over the world. The conference is being sponsored by the U.S. Dept. of Justice, the City of Chicago, and the Chicago Police Department. Vice President Al Gore is on the program. If anyone has any good stories about collaborative activities between community network activists and local police, I'd love to hear such stories in advance of my talk on 8/13. Please send them to me personally at gary.chapman at mail.utexas.edu. The Web page for the conference is at: http://www.ci.chi.il.us/CommunityPolicing/PressReleases/BTR/ Thanks, -- Gary Gary Chapman Director The 21st Century Project LBJ School of Public Affairs Drawer Y, University Station University of Texas Austin, TX 78713 (512) 263-1218 (512) 471-1835 (fax) gary.chapman at mail.utexas.edu http://www.utexas.edu/lbj/21cp * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jj at scn.org Thu Jul 30 14:04:24 1998 From: jj at scn.org (John Johnson) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: was (RE: ispell findings...) now...making changes In-Reply-To: <000001bdbb4f$f1cd0e40$0f02000a@contsrv.paydata> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Chanh Ong wrote: > Thanks to Bob H. has done most of the research, and there are no > major objection from the group. I have enable the ispell this week. ** I OBJECTED!! ** (For the reason that ispell was _not_ tested--see below.) So what should I do next time to register a complaint? (By the way, Bob did _not_ test, nor did he claim to have tested. He researched some specific points. Which is more than anyone else did.) Chanh: have you learned any lessons from this? Allen and everyone else: TESTING IS _NOT_ LUXURY. There are some things that have to be done right, and it has nothing to do with "protecting state secrets". There are many things which, IF NOT DONE RIGHT, SHOULD NOT BE DONE AT ALL! === JJ ================================================================= > [...] > > On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, allen wrote: > > > > > I agree with Chanh. we do not have state secrets to protect...nor the > > > luxury of a big budget for testing...or lots of expert bodies for doing > > > the testing. In the meantime...our users are the ones who are > > suffering... > > > and I thought THEY were why we are here! > > > > > > On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Chanh Ong wrote: > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:38:56 -0700 > > > > From: Chanh Ong > > > > To: hardware at scn.org > > > > Subject: RE: ispell findings... > > > > > > > > I think Bob has done enough testing and I also done some > > testing my and > > > > I have not run across any more issue. > > > > > > > > If you have any specific reason, let hear it. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: owner-hardware at scn.org > > [mailto:owner-hardware at scn.org]On Behalf Of > > > > John Johnson > > > > > > Sent: Friday, July 24, 1998 1:48 AM > > > > To: hardware at scn.org > > > > Subject: RE: ispell findings... > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Chanh Ong wrote: > > > > > > > > If I do not recieve any objection in a week, I will assume it > > > > will be put in for Freeport user to have a better speller. > > > > > > WRONG APPROACH! We need to _determine_ whether that is a > > > suitable thing > > > to do. It needs to be TESTED. (And I mean _tested_, not > > > just played > > > around with a little while.) If we are not going to do > > > this properly, > > > > then I object to putting it in. > > > > > > === JJ ===================================================== * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From chanh at scn.org Thu Jul 30 14:07:31 1998 From: chanh at scn.org (Chanh Ong) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:07:31 -0700 Subject: was (RE: ispell findings...) now...making changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701bdbbfe$10961340$0f02000a@contsrv.paydata> I thought it was a minor request which turn is not! OK, JJ don't rub it in! > -----Original Message----- > From: John Johnson [mailto:jj at scn.org] > Sent: Thursday, July 30, 1998 2:04 PM > To: Chanh Ong > Cc: Bill S; allen; Andrew Higgins; hardware at scn.org; scna-board at scn.org; > excom at scn.org; scn at scn.org > Subject: RE: was (RE: ispell findings...) now...making changes > > > > On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Chanh Ong wrote: > > > Thanks to Bob H. has done most of the research, and there are no > > major objection from the group. I have enable the ispell this week. > > ** I OBJECTED!! ** (For the reason that ispell was _not_ tested--see > below.) So what should I do next time to register a complaint? > (By the way, Bob did _not_ test, nor did he claim to have tested. He > researched some specific points. Which is more than anyone else did.) > > Chanh: have you learned any lessons from this? > > Allen and everyone else: TESTING IS _NOT_ LUXURY. There are some > things that have to be done right, and it has nothing to do with > "protecting state secrets". There are many things which, IF NOT DONE > RIGHT, SHOULD NOT BE DONE AT ALL! > > === JJ ================================================================= > > > [...] > > > On Sun, 26 Jul 1998, allen wrote: > > > > > > > I agree with Chanh. we do not have state secrets to > protect...nor the > > > > luxury of a big budget for testing...or lots of expert > bodies for doing > > > > the testing. In the meantime...our users are the ones who are > > > suffering... > > > > and I thought THEY were why we are here! > > > > > > > > On Fri, 24 Jul 1998, Chanh Ong wrote: > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:38:56 -0700 > > > > > From: Chanh Ong > > > > > To: hardware at scn.org > > > > > Subject: RE: ispell findings... > > > > > > > > > > I think Bob has done enough testing and I also done some > > > testing my and > > > > > I have not run across any more issue. > > > > > > > > > > If you have any specific reason, let hear it. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: owner-hardware at scn.org > > > [mailto:owner-hardware at scn.org]On Behalf Of > > > > > John Johnson > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, July 24, 1998 1:48 AM > > > > > To: hardware at scn.org > > > > > Subject: RE: ispell findings... > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Chanh Ong wrote: > > > > > > > > > > If I do not recieve any objection in a week, I will assume it > > > > > will be put in for Freeport user to have a better speller. > > > > > > > > WRONG APPROACH! We need to _determine_ whether that is a > > > > suitable thing > > > > to do. It needs to be TESTED. (And I mean _tested_, not > > > > just played > > > > around with a little while.) If we are not going to do > > > > this properly, > > > > then I object to putting it in. > > > > > > > > === JJ ===================================================== > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END