From michaelh at scn.org Sun Nov 1 15:43:57 1998 From: michaelh at scn.org (Michael Hanson) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 15:43:57 -0800 Subject: Are we wallflowers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9IPP2MnJq8Td091yn@scn.org> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 17:25:47 -0800 (PST), Rod Clark wrote: >> Anybody wanna take a crack at determining our popularity? > >Steve, > > For the week of October 19-26, SCN had about 52,293 page >views. (This is a bit conservative, since it excludes all images >and most sound files that people might have downloaded from >links on a page as separate items.) > > 144,000,000 / 52,593 = 19,166. So SCN is about number 19,000 >among the 3 million or so sites on the Net, according to this >formula. Typo in the math here: Actually 144,000,000 / 52,593 = 2,738 (But that would be dividing Yahoo's daily hit rate by our weekly rate). But I think you meant to say: 1,008,000,000 / 52,593 = 19,166 Does that 52,593 include hits from robots? If so, what proportion of our hits are from robots? Is information about hit rates for various IP/user areas on SCN available? > >Rod Clark > >> N = Y/T (where N = your site's popularity rank. Y = page views on >> the Web's most popular site. T = your site's traffic in page views) >> >> Yahoo's traffic in September 1998 was 144 million page views per day, >> ... >> www.useit.com received 110,360 page views per week. Thus, the formula >> says that useit had a popularity rank of 1,008,000,000/110,360 = >> 9,134. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Sun Nov 1 17:04:16 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:04:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Are we wallflowers? In-Reply-To: <9IPP2MnJq8Td091yn@scn.org> Message-ID: > But I think you meant to say: > 1,008,000,000 / 52,593 = 19,166 Michael, The resulting 19,166 number is right, but I did type the wrong Yahoo number on the far left. > Does that 52,593 include hits from robots? If so, what proportion > of our hits are from robots? It does include page views by search engines' indexing robots and other automated data collection programs and proxy agents. It's not easily possible to identify all robots. But they're a small percentage of SCN's traffic. The number of page views above also doesn't include people who followed a link to a missing or obsolete page and saw our notfound.html page, which has links to the home page and the search page. > Is information about hit rates for various IP/user areas on SCN > available? Yes. See http://www.scn.org/scripts/logtail.cgi (this starts over every Sunday at 2:00 AM, so check it later in the week). I revised the logtail.cgi utility about two months ago at the request of a user who was surprised to see his name in the log results that it displayed. Unbeknownst to him, his ISP (Seanet) had assigned his login username to his static IP number, so that his first initial and last name were being recorded at every Web site he visited, attached to the log records of each page he viewed, as jsomebody.seanet.com. This used to be almost unheard of, but apparently is becoming more common at ISPs now. Thus the logtail.cgi utility displays only the main domain name, not any subdomain names. The user then asked his ISP to change his account setup from a static IP address to a dynamic IP address (something like user123.port-14.blah.com, different every time). In any case, this shows up in the logtail.cgi results as simply blah.com. SCN's raw logs are kept on a machine on the network to which Information Providers and the public do not have access, so the limited information from the logtail.cgi utility is basically what's available. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Sun Nov 1 22:47:22 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:47:22 -0800 Subject: Regs Message-ID: <199811020655.WAA23492@scn.org> The F.C.C. Faces Internet Regulation Seth Schiesel NY Times 11/2/98 The emergence of the Internet is making intellectual contortionists out of people who try to regulate the communications industries in a fair and consistent manner. It is not the regulators' fault. It is just that the Internet is seeping into the cracks between decades of communications rules that were built, very carefully, to administer industries based on two-way phone calls and one-way television transmissions, not the raucously flexible Internet. The latest example of the difficulty came Friday at the Federal Communications Commission. On the surface, the FCC was faced with a fairly straightforward petition from GTE Corp. for approval of pricing plans for a new sort of high-speed data connection -- digital subscriber lines. But beneath the surface were questions on regulatory jurisdiction over the Internet and the nature of competition in the local telephone business, plus concerns over whether new types of local phone companies would continue to get more than $500 million a year from the incumbents. The commission ruled narrowly. It approved GTE's prices but declined to respond to the broader, more important, questions, saying it would start answering them within a week. Much of the difficulty, not only on Friday but throughout the commission's attempts to grapple with cyberspace, stems from its intention to avoid regulating the Internet in the first place. The problem is that the telephone and cable television industries, on which the Internet relies to reach homes, remain regulated to varying degrees. That regulatory dissimilarity raises hard questions. Should using a phone line and a modem to reach an Internet provider be considered a local call or a long-distance call -- something different from a regulatory standpoint? Should a regulated phone company be regulated differently when selling Internet service? On the Internet, should cable television companies have to play by the same rules as phone companies? Billions of dollars, the development of communications industries and the future of how Americans are linked to cyberspace ride on those questions. And so far, the FCC's attempts to answer them, raise still more questions. "The Internet has grown up in the unregulated environment, which is different from the old paradigm of regulation," William Kennard, the commission's chairman, said in an interview Friday. "There are some areas where the old paradigm intersects with the new paradigm, and that is where we are presented with some challenge." Most people link to the Internet using a standard telephone line. To the modem-using consumer, it generally seems like a standard local phone call. The dial-up data communication travels over the systems of the user's local phone company, which then hands it off to an Internet access provider like America Online. The Internet company then arranges for the transit of information, via long-distance lines, from the user to any one of thousands of sites around the world. So does that make America Online, or Joe's Internet Shack, a long-distance carrier? It is not a whimsical question. The largest source of revenue for local phone companies -- tens of billions of dollars a year -- takes the form of so-called access fees from long-distance providers. When AT&T carries a call from Atlanta to Chicago, for instance, it must give a few pennies every minute to the local phone companies, BellSouth and Ameritech, for the use of their networks in originating and completing the call. Were Internet companies forced to pay those per-minute fees, that would probably be the end of monthly all-you-can-use Internet pricing for consumers. So the FCC, wanting to expand the Internet, reaffirmed earlier this year that Internet companies receive a special exemption from long-distance access fees. An essential aspect of that policy is that by granting an exemption, the commission has determined that Internet communication is an interstate service. (In phone regulation, the FCC generally has authority only over interstate questions.) And as a practical matter, interstate communications are almost always considered long-distance calls. When new companies emerged a few years ago to compete with the Bells and GTE, they negotiated deals with the incumbents so that when a person using Phone Company A made a local call to someone using rival Phone Company B, Company A had to pay Company B a per-minute "reciprocal compensation" fee for the use of its network equipment. The assumption was that the fees flowing back and forth would be roughly in balance. But many of the new local companies have made a business out of courting Internet service providers, which need lots of phone lines for all those dial-up modem calls from their customers. And because these are almost entirely incoming calls, the "reciprocal compensation" fees have been anything but reciprocal. Instead, they have flowed largely to the upstarts from the incumbents that own the residential phone lines on which so many of those modem calls originate. The result has been more than $500 million in annual payments from the Bells and GTE to new providers. Not surprisingly, the Bells and GTE no longer want to play by these rules. And one of the arguments the incumbents made in connection with the GTE filing was that reciprocal compensation fees should not apply to local modem calls. They reasoned that the FCC's longstanding rules consider Internet calls to be long-distance calls. It is this thorny part of GTE's filing that the commission said it would take up separately, beginning this week. The conundrums do not stop there. Local phone carriers are required to sell access to pieces of their networks to other local companies that want to use them. Partly that is because many of those systems were built when the phone giants were monopolies and could use monopoly profits to build the networks. But now, the big local phone companies are asking the commission to exempt them from this resale requirement when they build new systems to bring high-speed data communications to homes. They say that if they have to resell access to those systems to their competitors, there will be no incentive to build them. The FCC desperately wants to support the introduction of advanced data services. Yet it is afraid that the Bells and GTE would still have an unfair advantage over new competitors if they could bundle the new services with the traditional phone service that is a legacy of their monopoly days. And then there is the separate regulatory structure for the cable TV companies, some of which are venturing into the business of connecting their customers to the Internet with cable modems. Not only are cable companies not bound by the rules of phone rate regulation; they are not compelled to offer competitors access to their networks. The local phone companies, of course, have questioned the fairness of the perceived regulatory advantages the Internet offers cable companies. And those issues were raised again in industry comments filed last week at the FCC, which is considering whether to approve the acquisition of the cable giant Tele-Communications Inc. by the No. 1 long-distance company, AT&T. Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Mon Nov 2 01:01:04 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 01:01:04 -0800 Subject: HTML editor - what do you use? Message-ID: <199811020909.BAA09341@scn.org> Just checking to see which HTML editors folks are happy with lately... ...Steve * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Mon Nov 2 07:44:53 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 07:44:53 -0800 Subject: HTML editor - what do you use? In-Reply-To: References: <199811020909.BAA09341@scn.org> Message-ID: <199811021553.HAA20903@scn.org> > Front Page98 and FrontPage Express. > Pretty nifty, flexible and intuitive. Thanks Paul! Not sure what FP Express is - ? Biggest problem with FP98 is that it inserts all kinds of extraneous proprietary code, making it difficult to use when page maintenance is shared with others. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Mon Nov 2 08:43:37 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:43:37 -0800 Subject: HTML editor - what do you use? Message-ID: <01BE063C.E41C31D0.jmabel@saltmine.com> None of them. -----Original Message----- From: Steve [SMTP:steve at advocate.net] Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 1:01 AM To: scn at scn.org Subject: HTML editor - what do you use? Just checking to see which HTML editors folks are happy with lately... ...Steve * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From n5jrn at ricochet.net Mon Nov 2 09:55:54 1998 From: n5jrn at ricochet.net (David Barts) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:55:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: HTML editor - what do you use? In-Reply-To: <199811020909.BAA09341@scn.org> from "Steve" at Nov 2, 98 01:01:04 am Message-ID: <199811021755.JAA03545@subversion.org> Vi, of course! Learned it years ago, already know HTML, using it means I don't have to spend time learning something else. -- David W. Barts (n5jrn at ricochet.net) / http://www.scn.org/~davidb LEGAL NOTICE: I am a WASHINGTON STATE RESIDENT. Unsolicited bulk E-mail may be billed $500 each in accordance with Chapter 19 RCW. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Mon Nov 2 10:01:42 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:01:42 -0800 Subject: HTML editor - what do you use? Message-ID: <01BE0647.CB56F170.jmabel@saltmine.com> Hear hear. Just Pico, in my case, but pretty much the same attitude. -----Original Message----- From: David Barts [SMTP:n5jrn at ricochet.net] Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 9:56 AM To: Steve Cc: scn at scn.org Subject: Re: HTML editor - what do you use? Vi, of course! Learned it years ago, already know HTML, using it means I don't have to spend time learning something else. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From GKimball at starbucks.com Mon Nov 2 10:07:32 1998 From: GKimball at starbucks.com (Garry Kimball) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:07:32 -0800 Subject: HTML editor - what do you use? Message-ID: <91951F1D9B6AD2119EF100805FC133B4053791@seant007.starbucks.net> I use BBEdit Lite, from Barebones Software, a shareware version of their commercial BBEdit. The BEST non-WYSIWYG editor for the Mac. GarryK stock administration ext. 4392 > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Mabel [SMTP:jmabel at saltmine.com] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 10:02 AM > To: 'David Barts'; Steve > Cc: scn at scn.org > Subject: RE: HTML editor - what do you use? > > Hear hear. Just Pico, in my case, but pretty much the same attitude. > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Barts [SMTP:n5jrn at ricochet.net] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 9:56 AM > To: Steve > Cc: scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: HTML editor - what do you use? > > Vi, of course! Learned it years ago, already know HTML, using it means > I don't have to spend time learning something else. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From dichter at scn.org Mon Nov 2 12:28:32 1998 From: dichter at scn.org (Burke Dykes) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:28:32 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Subject: HTML editor - what do you use? In-Reply-To: <199811021553.HAA20903@scn.org> Message-ID: I rough stuff out with Frontpage Express and then trim it down and tweak it with pico. Makes things go pretty fast! ================================================= Burke Dykes | If I should return West Seattle | before I get back burked at eskimo.com | hold me until I get here. ================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From starsrus at scn.org Mon Nov 2 12:42:23 1998 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:42:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: HTML editor - what do you use? In-Reply-To: <01BE0647.CB56F170.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > Hear hear. Just Pico, in my case, but pretty much the same attitude. Ditto, for quick web page fixes while online to SCN, and Lynx to check that they are functional and don't have any gross errors. At home, for creating new pages, a shareware Windows editor called Web Weaver (not to be confuesed with a different editor, similar name, for the Mac). Latest versions have nice wizzards to help create tables, frames, image maps, etc. There are also conversion tools to change imported text into basic tables and lists with a minimum of fuss. And, for viewing results, you can hook up 1 or 2 browsers of choice. Ken Applegate > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Barts [SMTP:n5jrn at ricochet.net] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 9:56 AM > To: Steve > Cc: scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: HTML editor - what do you use? > > Vi, of course! Learned it years ago, already know HTML, using it means > I don't have to spend time learning something else. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Mon Nov 2 12:49:21 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:49:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Archiving the SCN list Message-ID: SCN list members, We've been having a discussion over on the services mailing list about a number of things, such as how much we should try to grow SCN this year, and if so how. The various SCNA mailing lists are where many things get discussed and decided about running SCN. But no one subscribes to all 23 of the lists, or probably even to most of them. As a consequence, SCN's organizational memory of its discussions has become scattered and disconnected, with many people not knowing or remembering, or having any way to find out, what many of the people whose views and plans are important to SCN are talking about on the rest of the 23 mailing lists. So we'd like to start echoing or copying some of the messages that may be of general interest from other lists to this list, scn at scn.org. And also start making a daily archive of messages that are sent to this list, that would be readable from a Web page. For an example of something like this, that an Information Provider uses, see http://www.scn.org/ip/nwqrp/nwq-l This is an attempt to do two things. First, to encourage posting or re-posting messages that are of general interest to SCNA members, volunteers and users in a central place that everyone knows about, and that everyone can read and contribute to (by clicking on a mailto link on the list's archive Web page, for people who aren't actually subscribed to the list). And second, to encourage having more of an organizational memory in some coherent form. So if you've felt comfortable tossing out ideas here to a few dozen people in the past, but wouldn't be comfortable talking to a much wider potential audience, please consider making some posts on the committee mailing lists, and other posts here that you think would be apprpriate for this more general list. We haven't started archiving the list yet, and are still talking about when to do it. http://www.scn.org/help/scnlists.html Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Mon Nov 2 13:00:19 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:00:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Archiving the SCN list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > So we'd like to start echoing or copying some of the messages > that may be of general interest from other lists to this list, > scn at scn.org. That should read something like "encourage people who are members of other lists to echo their own messages to this list, whenever they think the discussions on their lists might be of general interest to other volunteers or users." In other words, all this is voluntary, but we hope people do it. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Tue Nov 3 01:36:25 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 01:36:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Archiving the SCN list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rod, Your idea of posting relevant messages to scn.org and of archiving discussions is great! Please do it. Thanks a lot. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From douglas Tue Nov 3 09:58:06 1998 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:58:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hear Dick Sclove talk -- Next week!! Message-ID: <199811031758.JAA04198@scn.org> Please distribute this announcement far and wide. Dick (and the Loka Institute) has been an active force in democratizing tchnology for years. Thanks! -- Doug Will modern technology HELP or HINDER communities as they face the problems of the next century? Do citizens and communities truly "get what they want" in terms of technology? Do they get want they NEED? WHO decides how technology is designed and used in our society? Is it possible for citizens to have a much stronger voice in making these critical decisions? Do democratic processes apply to the design and development of new technology? Should they? How can "ordinary citizens" engage in community research that help address environmental, social and other problems in the community? Join us for a FREE, public presentation and discussion with Richard Sclove, one of the nation's leading thinkers and practitioners in these areas. TECHNOLOGY BY THE PEOPLE Democratizing Technology Decisions and Design in the 21st Century An evening with Richard E. Sclove November 11, 1998 7:00 PM - 8:30 PM Sponsored by The Evergreen State College through A PLATO Royalty Lecture Urban Onion Restaurant's Palladia Room 116 Legion Street (across from Sylvester Park in downtown) Olympia, Washington Richard's presentation will be of interest to students, teachers, journalists, business people, government workers and, in fact, to anybody who is concerned with the use -- and abuse -- of technology in today's world. Richard Sclove, the founder and research director of the Loka Institute, Amherst, Massachusetts, (http://www.loka.org) will give a public presentation and discussion focused on the potential of democratizing decisions about which new technologies should be developed into the 21st century and how they should design of technology. As one of the nation's leading thinkers and practitioners in these areas, Dr. Sclove will be challenging our understanding of critical issues surrounding the use of technology in today's world. Last year Dr. Sclove initiated the first European-style, consensus conference in the United States for citizen-based deliberation of technology policy. The topic was "Telecommunications and the Future of Democracy." He also launched a transnational Community Research Network. His book, Democracy and Technology, has received numerous awards. Join us for Richard Sclove's first public appearance in the Olympia area! Contacts: Rebecca Chamberlain chambreb at evergreen.edu 360.866.6000 x 6844 Doug Schuler dschuler at evergreen.edu 206.634.0752 ******* Richard Sclove is founder and research director of the Loka Institute, a nonprofit organization concerned with making science and technology socially and environmentally responsive. last year Dr. Sclove initiated the first European-style, pilot consensus conference in the United States for citizen-based technology policy deliberation, on the topic "Telecommunications and the Future of Democracy." He also launched a transnational Community Research Network that same year. His book, _Democracy and Technology_, received the 1996 Don K. Price Award of the American Political Science Association. He has published extensively in both scholarly and popular venues, including _Science_ magazine, _The Washington Post_, and many others. Sclove lectures widely in the U.S. and abroad, and his consulting clients have included the John D. & Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, the W.K. Kellogg Foundation, and the Danish Parliament's Board of Technology. He holds a B.A. in environmental studies and, from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, graduate degrees in engineering and political science. Contact information: The Loka Institute P.O. Box 355 Amherst, MA 01004, USA Loka at amherst.edu http://www.loka.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Wed Nov 4 09:12:48 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:12:48 -0800 Subject: Free = Fail? Message-ID: <199811041721.JAA04648@scn.org> In Search of a Free ISP Matt Richtel NY Times 11/4/98 PALO ALTO -- Dozens of Internet entrepreneurs just can't seem to let go of the idea that there is a fortune to be made offering free, advertiser-supported, Internet access. The recipe seems so simple: offer free access, sign up tens of thousands of eager customers sick of paying $19.95 a month to their ISP, then sell their attention to hungry advertisers. There's just one catch. The idea keeps falling flat on its face. In the latest collapse, San Jose-based Bigger.net, one of the most celebrated attempts to launch a free Internet service, folded its tent last week. The company was $1.5 million in debt and bleeding money, and has left at least 18,000 subscribers in the lurch. It was not the first cautionary tale; several attempts to offer free Internet access have failed during the past serval years. And yet, within hours of Bigger.net filing for Chapter 7 bankruptcy, a suitor stepped in and offered to buy the company, vowing not just to resurrect Bigger.net's idea of "unlimited lifetime Internet access" -- but to expand it nationwide. The buyer is a fee-based Internet access provider in Seattle called Brigadoon.com. Its chief executive, John Hansen, said the company plans to offer Bigger.net subscribers a tiered service, starting with no-frills Internet access for free, while charging fees for enhanced services and higher-speed connectivity. "This model makes sense," Hansen said. Brigadoon is not alone in feeling optimistic about the potential for advertiser-supported Internet access. On Oct. 19, a partnership in Southern California launched NetZero, an ambitious nationwide free ISP that hopes to have one million subscribers within 12 months. NetZero's chief executive, Ronald Burr, said he is undaunted by past failures of free ISPs. "All the guys who tried it before were under-funded, with poor technology and they made serious execution mistakes," Burr said, noting NetZero has signed up 20,000 subscribers in 10 days, has 16 advertisers and is willing to invest "multi-million dollars." "These guys took the rinky-dink approach," he added. "We've done it the right way." The concept behind "free" ISP service does, indeed, sound alluring -- both to consumers, and as a business model. The idea is to offer Internet access for free, which often involves paying a one-time startup fee. Once a service has amassed enough subscribers, it can theoretically turn to advertisers and offer them attentive "eyeballs," the industry vernacular for selling peoples' attention to marketers. The idea is analogous in some ways to television programming. Networks pour millions of dollars into creating free programming, knowing they will recoup their investment through advertising. However, Industry analysts, and executives of fee-based ISPs, remain skeptical that this model can work in the Internet access market. They say that it simply takes too much time and money to amass the hundreds of thousands of users necessary to attract advertisers. Abhi Chaki, who covers the Internet access industry for Jupiter Communications Inc., a New York market research firm, said a free ISP would have to sign up at least 50,000 subscribers before major advertisers would take them seriously. Other analysts consider that figure to be too conservative, and note that the most popular Web sites can offer advertisers tens of millions of page views a month. In addition, the analysts note that advertising on the Internet is not yet a particularly rich source of revenue. That is because it is not yet fully accepted as a successful advertising vehicle, but also because there are so many different sites on which companies can place advertisements that it dilutes the amount any given site can charge. Meanwhile, while an advertiser-supported ISP is fighting to attract advertisers, it also must attract new Internet customers, and pay to support access for current subscribers. That can be an expensive proposition. Greg Ryan, President of ExecPC-Wisconsin, a Milwaukee ISP with 80,000 subscribers, estimates the cost of supporting an individual customer at $5 to $15 a month; Bill McCarthy, editor of Boardwatch Magazine, which covers the industry, puts the cost at $8 or $9 a month. "We'd have to take in $800,000 a month in advertising. That's a big nut to crack," said Ryan. "I just don't know if it's a workable business model right now." Abhi Chaki, from Jupiter, concurred. "There's a lot of money floating around the country trying to back a lot of crazy ventures," he said. "And there's some smart money behind this -- but it's an unviable model." Analyst and industry expectations were more upbeat when Bigger.net launched in January, 1997. It offered unlimited, lifetime access for a one-time startup fee of $59.95, plus a $10 annual fee for an e-mail account. The company garnered lots of media coverage and quickly grew its subscriber base. But behind the scenes, Bigger.net was having a conflict with one of the suppliers of its T1 lines, the high-speed data lines that connect callers to the Internet, according to Chuck Greene, a San Jose attorney who represented Bigger.net in its Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings. Greene said that Bigger.net contends that it received delivery of only 30 T1 lines, when it should have received 60 T1lines. As a result, Bigger.net could not grow the business at a sufficient rate to attract advertisers, Greene said. Others close to the story have said Bigger.net would have been unable to attract sufficient advertising regardless of its supply of T1 lines. "They just sat back," said one source affiliated with the company. In December, 1997, the company filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, reorganized and continued to operate. Last month, investors determined it was too costly to keep the business running, and they filed to convert the status to Chapter 7, meaning the company would put into receivership and liquidated. Hansen, chief executive of Brigadoon.com, whose bid for Bigger.net has been accepted by the trustee but not yet by the court, said there are several keys to making the entity solvent. He said Brigadoon already has a sales force that will increase the effort to sell advertising. However, he said the more significant change will be the plan to create a tiered pricing structure. Bigger.net will continue to offer basic service for a one-time fee, but it also will offer expanded services, such as higher speed connections and richer features, for prices ranging from $9.95 to $29.95. At the higher prices, there will be no advertising. Hansen likened the business model to the cable television business, in which premium pay channels offer no advertising. "One of the problems with Bigger.net is it only had one product line," he said, adding that Brigadoon.com already offers similar pricing. "We're already doing this. That's why the model makes some sense to us." NetZero is taking a slightly different tack. The company is offering totally free service, and believes it can generate enough revenue from advertising. Burr, the company's chief executive, said NetZero plans one key change from most other existing free ISPs: rather than run its own technology infrastructure, NetZero plans to contract out those services. The company will run what is known as a "virtual ISP," meaning that the modems and T1 lines and other key hardware are owned and operated by a major telecommunications company. NetZero is just leasing it. Burr said a second key difference with NetZero is that its venture investors, IdeaLab Capital Partners, know what they are getting into, and know they must spend "multi- millions of dollars" to get the project up and running. Eventually, he said, the company hopes to be able to offer advertisers not just millions of "eyeballs," but specific demographic information about the audience. In general, he said the NetZero concept will prove the viability of the free ISP. "I use the analogy of the start of the car industry," he said. "A lot of guys were building cars in their garages and one guy got it right. That guy was Henry Ford." Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Thu Nov 5 05:08:46 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 05:08:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hello (fwd) [Needle exchange programs] Message-ID: SCN volunteers, Not sure exactly where to forward this. Could someone think of a good set of people here in Seattle to contact about it? Thanks, Rod Clark webadm at scn.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 07:31:49 -0500 From: Keith H Mantel To: information at aidsprevention.org, tpuringt at family.hampshire.edu, webmaster at scn.org, wbrent at ix.netcom.com, William_Jesdale at brown.edu, xchangept at aol.com, fitshop at vicnet.net.au, pete at psynet.net Subject: Hello Hello. My name is Keith Mantel and I am a social work student who is doing a project around needle exchange programs and drug user groups. I am working with the needle exchange program in Boston called AHOPE. In the work that I am doing there I am trying to get people who are receiving services to become involved with a group that would have as one of it's purposes the goal of increasing people's ability to empower themselves. After much consideration a group of us at AHOPE have decided that newsletter would be a great way for people to get involved and for them to talk about issues that are important to them. I am writing this letter to ask people for ideas about this subject in general. Recently I have seen a number of newsletters that have been put out by groups of drug users. If anyone has firsthand information regarding newsletters or similar projects I would love to hear about it. Also if anyone knows of other places that I might look to find more information I would appreciate that as well. Thanks very much, Keith Mantel ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Thu Nov 5 08:22:49 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:22:49 -0800 Subject: Web Message-ID: <199811051631.IAA19231@scn.org> To Become a Mass Medium, Web Must Be Freed From PC Walter S. Mossberg Wall Street Journal 11/5/98 When you turn on television these days, the airwaves are so full of Web page addresses and breathless technology hype that it's easy to believe the Internet is as much of a mass consumer medium as TV itself. But that conclusion would be way off base. Nearly every U.S. home, in every economic class and neighborhood, has at least one TV set, and often several. The same goes for the other great consumer technology: the telephone. TV sets are common even in small villages in small countries. But only about 27% of American homes boast an online connection, and the figure is far lower in most other countries. The Internet simply is not yet a mass medium. Sure, lots of people use the Web from work, but that isn't likely to spawn vast consumer-oriented online businesses, because savvy companies increasingly limit the time and scope of employee Web browsing, for security and productivity reasons. So the big dividends will come in the home, and that 27% figure is just too low to support the grandiose connected world that Internet zealots predict will be upon us in just a few years. The spread of the Web looks spectacular, when measured against a low base, but it's less impressive than it seems. We know what a mass medium looks like. Even in an era of declining network-television viewing, shows like "Seinfeld" can draw 25 million or 30 million households -- more than the total of Internet-connected homes -- simultaneously for a solid half-hour. But the biggest consumer gateway to the Internet, America Online, can only accommodate about 800,000 of its 13 million members at any one time. That's more people than typically watch CNN during daytime hours, but far fewer than watch even some obscure network and cable series. What's more, those AOL members are dispersed throughout the Web at thousands of sites. The web, of course, isn't a mass broadcast medium, but a medium which can "narrowcast," sending smaller but more dedicated audiences to content and services tailored to their interests. But it will still need to attract millions of additional regular users before it can challenge established content and services in the physical world. So what will it take for the Internet to become a mass medium? The typical answer is more bandwidth to the home, providing faster, bigger connections. That's true. But I think there are four other things that need to change one of them crucial. Home connections must be not only speedier but cheaper and automatic -- always open. Compelling content also must be developed. The Web needs its own Milton Berle, the performer whose popular show in the 1950s got people to buy TV sets. In fact, it needs many Milton Berles. And the Web needs much better business models, so companies there can earn profits, not just publicity. But by far the most important thing needed for the Web to become ubiquitous is a replacement for the personal computer as the main device people must use to get there. The Web is imprisoned in the PC. Its growth is limited by the adoption rate of this clumsy, complex, unstable device which even at $800 is too expensive. After two decades as a mass consumer product, the PC has entered just 45% of American homes. Two full years of dramatic price cuts have failed to push PC penetration over 50%, and those price cuts are showing signs of leveling off. Even if PC penetration creeps over 50% next year, it will need to nearly double again to match the TV, which was a common presence in homes just 20 years after it became a mass-market item in the late 1940s. One of the Internet's most optimistic gurus, Nicholas Negroponte of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, has acknowledged the PC problem. Last summer, writing in Wired Magazine -- the bible of Internet utopians -- he described his shock at having to shop for a PC himself, after years of depending on others to do so. "Suddenly I realize that even with so much of MIT's computing talent at my disposal and no care whatsoever for what things cost, I am no better off than peasants in Pakistan confronted with their very first computer," wrote the technically savvy Mr. Negroponte. "Today's machines are just too complex to be accessible." The best hope for Internet ubiquity is the rapid development and marketing of simpler, cheaper devices, which I've been calling information appliances in this space for years. These machines, like Microsoft's WebTV set-top box or the new Jupiter-class mini-laptops, are designed either just to access the Web and e-mail, or to do that plus a few other, limited tasks, such as word processing or keeping a calendar. They aren't designed to run thousands of software packages, or to be all things to all people. But they turn on instantly, connect to the Web simply, crash rarely and spare users from having to master complex, general-purpose operating systems like Windows or the MacOS. Those who want universal Internet use need to drop their techie sensibilities and look at the world beyond the PC. They need to cheer heartily for the info appliance projects now being undertaken at companies inside and outside the industry. Unless we get a truly simple box with which to access the Internet, something as easy and reliable as a TV or phone, the Web will remain a partial success, a diversion for techies and the privileged. Copyright c 1998 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Fri Nov 6 10:16:35 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:16:35 -0800 Subject: Family? Message-ID: <199811061824.KAA01243@scn.org> Ever notice how people often treat strangers better than family or close friends? How people can be unfailingly polite and gracious with complete strangers, while at the same time acting boorish and totally insensitive with those they know well? Ever notice this phenomenon at work here in our little SCN family? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Fri Nov 6 11:12:56 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:12:56 -0800 Subject: Family? Message-ID: <01BE0976.68B7CEE0.jmabel@saltmine.com> Actually, the worst boorishness I've seen has been toward some of the near-strangers: casual volunteers chewed out publicly for minor derelictions. -----Original Message----- From: Steve [SMTP:steve at advocate.net] Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 10:17 AM To: scn at scn.org Subject: Family? Ever notice how people often treat strangers better than family or close friends? How people can be unfailingly polite and gracious with complete strangers, while at the same time acting boorish and totally insensitive with those they know well? Ever notice this phenomenon at work here in our little SCN family? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From janossz at scn.org Fri Nov 6 11:22:35 1998 From: janossz at scn.org (Janos Szablya) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:22:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Family? In-Reply-To: <199811061824.KAA01243@scn.org> Message-ID: Bravo.... Having been with SCN for a while I'd like to say that as a group of people the bickering and dickering that goes on this list is really good and healthy for us. A lot of frustration builds with pet projects and there is almost always a group that sees the project causing problems with the work they are doing, adding to workload and this always seems to happen when the staff you are with can't support you (vacations....changing from webmasters to hardware or just retiring) The venting that I see always seems to come out in the long haul as a positive for SCN. This is generally at the cost of ego's. For those who are effected (ego shattered) thank you for taking it. It helps us a lot. It keeps us thinking straight and on the right course. Janos * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Fri Nov 6 21:22:48 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:22:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Family? In-Reply-To: <199811061824.KAA01243@scn.org> Message-ID: How dare you say that, you *#@%*%$#@. (Just joking, you all) ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Steve wrote: > Ever notice how people often treat strangers better than family or > close friends? How people can be unfailingly polite and gracious > with complete strangers, while at the same time acting boorish and > totally insensitive with those they know well? > > Ever notice this phenomenon at work here in our little SCN family? > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Fri Nov 6 21:32:52 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:32:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Family? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's something about this Janos fellow that I really like! Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Janos Szablya wrote: > Bravo.... > > Having been with SCN for a while I'd like to say that as a group of people > the bickering and dickering that goes on this list is really good and > healthy for us. > > A lot of frustration builds with pet projects and there is almost always a > group that sees the project causing problems with the work they are doing, > adding to workload and this always seems to happen when the staff you are > with can't support you (vacations....changing from webmasters to hardware > or just retiring) > > The venting that I see always seems to come out in the long haul as a > positive for SCN. This is generally at the cost of ego's. > > For those who are effected (ego shattered) thank you for taking it. It > helps us a lot. It keeps us thinking straight and on the right course. > > > Janos > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From michaelh at scn.org Tue Nov 3 12:08:56 1998 From: michaelh at scn.org (Michael Hanson) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 12:08:56 -0800 Subject: Archiving the SCN list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A couple of problems with making a public archive of SCN list: Spam - Discussions that are echoed to fora or web pages stifle discussion because users must engage their anti-spam measures before posting, or forgo posting to avoid spam. The archive software should obey directives like X-No-Archive: Yes Duplicate postings - In the past, we have discouraged people from cross-posting to SCN as well as committee lists. Everyone who is on a committee list is supposed to be on SCN. So that means that members of the committee get everything twice. (This is even more of a bother if things are cross-posted between several commitees - getting 3-4 copies of each message makes it much harder to follow the discussion). Instead of encouraging CC'ing, perhaps users of the committee lists should be encouraged to move discussions of general interest to the SCN list, or to post a pointer on SCN telling people that this discussion is occuring on such and such a list. On Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:49:21 -0800 (PST), Rod Clark wrote: >SCN list members, > > We've been having a discussion over on the services mailing >list about a number of things, such as how much we should try to >grow SCN this year, and if so how. > > The various SCNA mailing lists are where many things get >discussed and decided about running SCN. But no one subscribes >to all 23 of the lists, or probably even to most of them. As a >consequence, SCN's organizational memory of its discussions has >become scattered and disconnected, with many people not knowing >or remembering, or having any way to find out, what many of the >people whose views and plans are important to SCN are talking >about on the rest of the 23 mailing lists. > > So we'd like to start echoing or copying some of the messages >that may be of general interest from other lists to this list, >scn at scn.org. And also start making a daily archive of messages >that are sent to this list, that would be readable from a Web >page. For an example of something like this, that an Information >Provider uses, see > > http://www.scn.org/ip/nwqrp/nwq-l > > This is an attempt to do two things. First, to encourage >posting or re-posting messages that are of general interest to >SCNA members, volunteers and users in a central place that >everyone knows about, and that everyone can read and contribute >to (by clicking on a mailto link on the list's archive Web page, >for people who aren't actually subscribed to the list). And >second, to encourage having more of an organizational memory in >some coherent form. > > So if you've felt comfortable tossing out ideas here to a few >dozen people in the past, but wouldn't be comfortable talking to >a much wider potential audience, please consider making some >posts on the committee mailing lists, and other posts here that >you think would be apprpriate for this more general list. We >haven't started archiving the list yet, and are still talking >about when to do it. > > http://www.scn.org/help/scnlists.html > >Rod Clark > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * >. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: >majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: >unsubscribe scn >END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From mtsvme at scn.org Mon Nov 9 21:53:15 1998 From: mtsvme at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:53:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: HTML editor - what do you use? In-Reply-To: <01BE0647.CB56F170.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: I use wordpad. It makes no false assumptions, does exactly what I want and doesn't change things on me! Thomas * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Mon Nov 9 23:27:23 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:27:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Welcome to urbanpolitics (fwd) Message-ID: This is a newsletter list from Nick Lacata. Try it and see if the information is good. ____________________ This is a list from the office of City Councilperson Nick Licata. Consider signing up for regular input. Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:17:34 -0800 From: Majordomo at lists.speakeasy.org To: be718 at scn.org Subject: Welcome to urbanpolitics -- Welcome to the urbanpolitics mailing list! Please save this message for future reference. Thank you. If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, you can send mail to with the following command in the body of your email message: unsubscribe urbanpolitics or from another account, besides be718 at scn.org: unsubscribe urbanpolitics be718 at scn.org If you ever need to get in contact with the owner of the list, (if you have trouble unsubscribing, or have questions about the list itself) send email to . This is the general rule for most mailing lists when you need to contact a human. Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to, in case you don't already have it: You've been added to URBAN POLITICS, a periodic email newsletter sent out by Seattle City Council Member Nick Licata, because you have contacted his office regarding Seattle City policies. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Thu Nov 12 09:44:40 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:44:40 -0800 Subject: Salons Message-ID: <199811121753.JAA16547@scn.org> November 12, 1998 Regular Gatherings for Food, Issues Offer Face Time in the Real World By ANN GRIMES Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL SAN FRANCISCO -- Po Bronson, author of the Silicon Valley novel "The First $20 Million Is Always the Hardest," says he frequents them for material. Software entrepreneur Pavel Curtis enlivens his with European board games. Internet entrepreneur Oliver Muoto says, "There is definitely an A and B list now." Silicon Valley, the source of so much innovation, has invented its own version of the salon. It's more high-tech than high-brow, more business than bons mots, compared with the gatherings that writer Madame de Stael turned into an art form some 200 years ago. And true to the valley, these so-called cybersalons are proliferating like start-ups. Round Zero meets monthly at a Menlo Park hotel to discuss topics like "Is Microsoft evil?" In Berkeley, a group chews over patents and pizza at Fred and Sylvia's CyberSalon. In San Francisco, a young Internet executive hosts elaborate Thursday dinners featuring organic vegetables at his home overlooking the Golden Gate Bridge. At one gathering, he asked guests to "imagine some invention you would like to see and tell me about it." Cyber-soirees are popping up so rapidly that Mr. Muoto, who also hosts a monthly dinner of his own, moonlights as something of a social secretary, e-mailing a list of monthly gatherings to a select group of 250 friends and colleagues. He and others note that the trend partly reflects the development of an elite, as the valley and its high-tech fringes mature and depart from the computer industry's meritocratic roots. "People are more picky about who's invited," Mr. Muoto says. But the industry's nerd roots also come into play. People here say they are so connected electronically that they feel unconnected from fellow humans. They yearn for regular face time to swap ideas, socialize and network. Ruby Yeh, another software entrepreneur, says she goes on cyber-outings "two or three nights a week, where I've met all my contacts." In suburban Redwood City, at a small ranch house, entrepreneur Russell Brand hosts a potluck dinner on the first Tuesday of every month. It's something he has been doing in various forms and venues since his high-school days in New Jersey -- a shy guy's effort to create his own in-crowd, he says. He kept it up as an undergraduate at MIT and as a Berkeley graduate student -- "Until we got kicked out of the restaurant" where the group met, he says. "There were many people whose social skills were not up to fine dining." As people dive into boxes of Chinese take-out on a recent Tuesday, an engineer in Birkenstocks goes on about his struggle to patent an electric scooter bike. A geneticist vents his frustration at unraveling genes. Nearby, a couple of beaming newlyweds say they first met here in Mr. Brand's modest abode and subsequently courted by e-mail. "They were long e-mails," the husband laughs. "At other parties you're going to hear remarks like, 'Gee, did you see those 'Niners?' " says venture capitalist Tom J. Schwartz. "I can count on a stimulating evening here." The five young men who founded Round Zero say they worked all the time and hungered for "an intellectual exchange." They limit their dinners to a fixed number of venture capitalists, journalists and technology entrepreneurs. The hyperactive crowd sports business suits and T-shirts as it sits down on a recent evening at small round tables in a hotel restaurant in Menlo Park, near the Stanford University campus. "It's a chance to talk some real issues," says Philip N. Sanderson, a San Francisco venture capitalist. In preparation for one dinner, he says he devoured a stack of suggested reading on Internet stocks before tackling the pasta and wild mushrooms. On the menu this month: "Consolidation: A Driving Force of the Silicon Valley Ecosystem." Mr. Bronson, the author, shuns much of the social scene but comes to Round Zero (the name refers to the prefunding stage of a start-up) for research. He likes the group and the fact that "there's no speaker and people here love to debate." A Richard Gere look-alike, he seems to have spent less time basking in the rays of the iMac than some of this pallid crew. He laughs about the night the group broached the question "Is Microsoft evil?" saying, "we had a hard time finding anyone to give the pro-Microsoft view." Across the San Francisco Bay, in Berkeley, it was software entrepreneur Fred Davis and high-tech publicist Sylvia Paull who started using the term "cyber-salon" to describe their discussions about computers and society, Ms. Paull says. Mr. Davis, a teen-age prodigy who earned a B.A. in only one year, recalls that the couple "used to just throw parties." But after "paying to hear their friends talk" at industry events, they decided to organize their own events with "intellectual meat," he says. On a recent Saturday evening in their spacious cottage built into a Berkeley hillside, 50 or so people, some in T-shirts touting "Java" (not the coffee), sit on couches and the floor as Ms. Paull directs a 90-minute discussion on intellectual-property rights. Recent court decisions to expand Internet patents have software entrepreneurs worried that an explosion of electronic patents will restrict their work. "The patent thing is out of control," growls William Bates, author of a software program called "MacZilla" that expands the multimedia capabilities of Macintosh machines. "But we don't know how out of control because it takes years" before the patent-holder becomes known. The shoptalk leads some salon-purists to criticize the cyber-version as just an extension of Silicon Valley's nonstop business culture, where a web browser generates more buzz than a hot movie. "Silicon Valley is as anti-intellectual a place as you get," opines Paul Saffo, director of a Menlo Park, Calif., think tank called the Institute for the Future. Before he was married, Mr. Saffo used to hold regular, serious gatherings dubbed "Nerds' Night Out" for a group of Stanford academics, entrepreneurs and journalists. Of course, salons always have been dominated by the "business" of their patrons. In Washington, D.C., it's the business of politics; on Manhattan's Upper West Side, it's the business of culture. In Silicon Valley, it's often the business of technology that gets served up with the Pasqua coffee. But there are salons where business isn't the main event. Natalie Jeremijenko, an artist and lecturer at Yale University's Department of Mechanical Engineering, frequented the Silicon Valley social scene before recently moving to New York. In the valley, she says, it's "not what you've read or who you know, it's about how fast you can do this puzzle or what code you've written. Those little algorithmic tricks are really respected." She points to the gaming parties hosted by Mr. Curtis, the software entrepreneur, where wits win out. His European board games range from silly to sophisticated, and guests compete all night over "board games, card games, long games, short games, droll games and sometimes computer games," Mr. Curtis says. Brewster Kahle, host of the Thursday night San Francisco dinners, says the focus at his table is friendship and ideas. Guests recently amused themselves with new ideas for inventions -- everything from a plastic shim (a wedge for wobbly tables) to a cheap coffee maker that digests and brews beans in one step. Still, Mr. Bates, a former Simon & Schuster technology editor, likes to tick off names of startups that sprang from his favorite salon. "You're more likely to find someone at one of these parties actually doing something than in New York, where there's a lot more posing and jockeying for prestige and power," he says. Geeks may not appear chic, he adds, but here "intellectual ideas are dear and money is cheap." Copyright c 1998 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb140 at scn.org Fri Nov 13 07:53:01 1998 From: bb140 at scn.org (Barb Weismann) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 07:53:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Salons In-Reply-To: <199811121753.JAA16547@scn.org> Message-ID: Steve: It's like, the new vocab is "let's put is some face time?" In Seattle, we'd have to meet at a spa that has enough stationary bicycles because people can't socialize without them.... Barb * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Sat Nov 14 11:12:31 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:12:31 -0800 Subject: Free HTML editor Message-ID: <199811141921.LAA03852@scn.org> Arachnophilia is a free HTML editor that has received good reviews - clean, simple, and doesn't butcher code like some other products. It's published as Careware, a concept that's probably familiar to some of you. Available at: www.arachnoid.com Here's an explanation of Careware from the program's author, Paul Lutus - Economic principles lie behind many more human activities than most of us realize. We are almost constantly exchanging something for something else. Many economic transactions don't involve money. In traditional societies, and sometimes even this one, people trade using favors, influence, even pure ideas, instead of money. Sometimes money is not the best way to convey value. And sometimes money is so completely inappropriate that it destroys the transaction . CareWare is one of those transactions. CareWare doesn't involve money, but it is a transaction nevertheless. Something is delivered, something is received. Adam Smith's invisible economic hand moves through the CareWare economy just like everywhere else. I can't ask for something more than I am giving, but I can ask for an appropriate exchange. In CareWare, the "buyer" gets something of value in exchange for something the "seller" wants. And what does the seller want? The general answer is "Anything except money," but I prefer the really remarkable transactions, which you recognize instinctively when you see them. Here is an example -- here is a hypothetical transaction between myself and you. I have a program called "Arachnophilia" which is a rather nice Web page editor and workshop, but I don't want your money in exchange, I want something else. So I say "This is what I am offering, and here is what I want in return." Simple, right? I have been doing this for a little while now, and the responses have been very interesting. Many people think I have religious beliefs -- I don't, at least not religious beliefs recognizable by a person of normal intellectual gifts. Others try to push the transaction in a more traditional direction for one reason or another -- I recently received this message: Careware, eh? A small price to pay for such a great software package. My pen quivers over my checkbook in case you change your mind. This response could arise from any number of causes, and bartering about the medium as well as the size of the payment is a normal part of economic transactions, so maybe I am picking on this particular correspondent a little. But the funny part is CareWare is by no means a small price to pay . For example, here is a payment I will accept for a copy of Arachnophilia -- To own Arachnophilia, I ask that you stop whining about how hard your life is, at least for a while. When Americans whine, nearly everybody else in the world laughs. We have so much, and yet we manage to: Overlook great examples of beauty around us, Miss our most important opportunities, Manage to make ourselves miserable by expecting something even better to come along. Every time we whine about how tough we have it, apart from the fact that we look ridiculous, we make it harder for people around us to appreciate how much we have. We encourage people to overlook the things we do have, the gifts of man and nature. We provide a context to dismiss everything as not good enough, to be miserable in the midst of plenty. Don't get the wrong impression -- many things are unjust, things that should be struggled against until they are made right. My complaint is with people who can't find even one thing to take joy in, to appreciate. These people not only make themselves miserable, but they infect others with the attitude that the world should right itself, by itself, before they will take simple pleasure in anything. So here is my deal: stop whining for an hour, a day, a week, your choice, and you will have earned your copy of Arachnophilia. Say encouraging words to young people, make them feel welcome on the planet Earth (many do not). Show by example that we don't need all we have in order to be happy and productive. Paul Lutus, Port Hadlock, Washington * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Sat Nov 14 12:41:05 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:41:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free HTML editor In-Reply-To: <199811141921.LAA03852@scn.org> Message-ID: > Arachnophilia is a free HTML editor that has received good reviews - > clean, simple, and doesn't butcher code like some other products. Steve, This (arach_full.zip) is now in the SCN program downloads area on the FreePort menus, and on the Web Tools and Tutorials page on the Web help menu. Rod * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Sat Nov 14 13:04:49 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:04:49 -0800 Subject: Free HTML editor In-Reply-To: References: <199811141921.LAA03852@scn.org> Message-ID: <199811142113.NAA02048@scn.org> > This (arach_full.zip) is now in the SCN program downloads > area on the FreePort menus, and on the Web Tools and Tutorials > page on the Web help menu. Thanks Rod! Was it there before, and I missed it? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Sat Nov 14 13:26:00 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:26:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free HTML editor In-Reply-To: <199811142113.NAA02044@scn.org> Message-ID: > > This (arach_full.zip) is now in the SCN program downloads > > area on the FreePort menus, and on the Web Tools and Tutorials > > page on the Web help menu. > > ... Was it there before, and I missed it? Steve, Nope. Added it after reading your message. While we're at it, yesterday I removed Magic Site Wizard from the Web Tools and Tutorials page, since it's dead and has been absorbed into some other product called Coffee Cup something or other. If you know of any other newer, better tools to add (including maybe this Coffee Cup thing, if anyone wants to try it out), please point them out. Rod * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From kv9x at scn.org Sat Nov 14 20:07:16 1998 From: kv9x at scn.org (Brian High) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 20:07:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Postings from this on the web Message-ID: Hello scn at scn subscribers, As of tommorrow, Nov. 15th, 1998, all postings of this list will be made available for viewing on the web. The URL for the archives will be shown at the bottom of each message (in the footer) posted to this email list (scn at scn.org). This will make the archives on the web will be easy to find and will also make it clear that postings end up there. The decision to go ahead with this was made final by the SCNA Executive Committee, after a proposal made by the User Services Committee and the SCN Webmaster. The letter posted recently to this list announcing the possibility of posting scn at scn list archives to the web did not yield sufficient complaints to prohibit this action. However, if you do have complaints or concerns, email you comments or questions to webmaster at scn.org. The URL for the archives is: http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/scn-l/maillist.html The files are indexed by date or by subject and appear as one web page per message. Because there is a subject index, the archives can be said to be "threaded". This makes it easy to keep track of a single conversation among the many which go on concurrently on scn at scn. Again, these archives will begin to show up on Nov. 15th. Every midnight, the day's messages will be posted there, and a new monthly archive file posted there as well, in gzip file format (*.gz). These monthly archives will be plain-text files, one per month, which can be opened with WinZip, among others. The messages will be one appended to the next, in chronological order. The hope is that, by making the discussions here more available to World Wide Web users, we will encourage greater participation and better communication. --Brian High SCNA User Services Committee Chairperson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/scn-l/maillist.html From bb140 at scn.org Sat Nov 14 21:21:02 1998 From: bb140 at scn.org (Barb Weismann) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:21:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Barb/test Message-ID: Test whether I get this. Thanks, Barb * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/scn-l/maillist.html From kv9x at scn.org Sun Nov 15 01:13:48 1998 From: kv9x at scn.org (Brian High) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 01:13:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: privacy and your scn@scn web archive postings Message-ID: Michael, Since MHonarc does not remove X-No-Archive messages from the archive automatically, I wrote a small script to do that for us. However, there is a partial header that still makes it into the archive so at least one would know that a message was sent, etc. As I do not know how to set this in Pine or any other mail agent, I hope that anyone wanting to know more about how to set the X-No-Archive setting to Yes contacts you. :-) Here is what came of the message you posted using the X-No-Archive setting in your header: (Please note that the sender's email address, name, and message body do not show) ^^^ --Brian P.S. If, however, someone were to quote your message, the quoted part would be in the archive as part of the other person's message. -B Re: Archiving the SCN list _________________________________________________________________ * To: [7]bb615 at scn.org * Subject: Re: Archiving the SCN list * Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 12:08:56 -0800 * Cc: [8]scn at scn.org * In-Reply-To: <[9]Pine.SUN.3.96.981102121346.10388B-100000 at scn> _________________________________________________________________ (Author did not want this message archived.) _________________________________________________________________ * References: + [10]Archiving the SCN list o From: Rod Clark * Prev by Date: [11]Re: Family? * Next by Date: [12]RE: HTML editor - what do you use? * Prev by thread: [13]Re: Archiving the SCN list * Next by thread: [14]Hear Dick Sclove talk -- Next week!! * Index(es): + [15]Date + [16]Thread _________________________________________________________________ Comments about the scn at scn Email List Archives? Send mail to [17]webmaster at scn.org. _________________________________________________________________ [18]SCN Home Page * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/scn-l/maillist.html From webadm Sun Nov 15 16:06:12 1998 From: webadm (SCN Web Master) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 16:06:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Modifications to scn@scn on the web Message-ID: <199811160006.QAA12758@scn.org> Hi gang, Since we are starting the web mirroring of scn at scn today, we have moved the majordomo archives files so the program cannot find the old ones. That is, the old messages will not be archived, just the new ones. This way, anyone who posted up until now, will not see their postinf postings on the web. We thought this would be good since some people who posted to scn at scn in the last month may not have wanted their stuff on the web, and would not have posted had they known they might have there posts up there. So, we are making a clean start of this. Also, the location has changed to: http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/maillist.html The foter message will be updated after this message, so ignore the URL that will be at the bottom of this message --Brian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/scn-l/maillist.html From steve at advocate.net Sun Nov 15 21:57:18 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 21:57:18 -0800 Subject: The Board - sound familiar? Message-ID: <199811161632.IAA14829@scn.org> Internet Governance Board Confronts a Hostile Public Jeri Clausing NY Times 11/16/98 CAMBRIDGE, Mass. -- Eight people found themselves at a crossroads in history Saturday, visibly uncomfortable with their task of creating the first real government for an online world and intimidated by the level of distrust -- sometimes outright animosity -- they encountered when facing their constituents for the first time. At a reception on Friday evening, the members of the ad hoc board that will establish a private system of Internet governance huddled with one another, unsure how to reach out to the many factions that have been battling for years over who will rule cyberspace. They had reason to be intimidated. Many of these factions have been quarreling for years. As the panel's chairwoman, Esther Dyson, pointed out, a key goal of this first public meeting was to earn their trust. But as the nearly 200 people who traveled from as far away as Malaysia lined up at microphones to introduce themselves Saturday morning, a single message to the new board came across loud and clear: We don't trust you. The dialogue did turn much more constructive as the day wore on, and most of the group, despite their criticism, expressed a willingness to work with the board and offer specific suggestions for insuring that the new nonprofit group -- the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers -- is not taken over by corporate and other special interests. Still, many said the new board members had done little to put their minds at ease. "There is no feedback from the board," said Tony Rutkowski, an Internet consultant from California. "Esther is the only one who has asked any questions." Ms. Dyson, chairwoman of Edventure Holding, an information technology company in New York, acknowledged that the board seemed intimidated by its first meeting with its public -- which included critics of the process that led to their selection. Indeed, Hans Kraaijenbrink, a board member from the Netherlands, indicated he had never seen such passion at a public meeting. But the purpose of the meeting, Ms. Dyson said, was to listen and get input, to begin the process of building a consensus with the wary factions that have yet to endorse the corporation plan. The U.S. Department of Commerce has tentatively selected the corporation to take over the administrative functions of the Internet, which are currently handled under government contracts. Crucial issues the new corporation will decide include how to introduce competition into the lucrative business of registering Web site names in the popular top-level domains of ".com," ".net" and ".org." Network Solutions Inc., the government's contractor, currently has a monopoly on the business. The skepticism about the corporation stems, in part, from continuing questions about how its interim board was picked. Critics contend the nonprofit corporation was created secretly and not in the open consensus-building fashion that the Clinton administration called for when it proposed getting the government out of the Internet business. One person in the audience referred to the creation of the board as a "virgin birth." Eight of the 10 board members made it to the first meeting, and they tried to explain how they got there. Kraaijenbrink, the chairman of the executive board of the European Telecommunications Network Operators, said he was called by the European Union. "I said, 'I know nothing about the Internet.' They said, 'That's good.' "I said, 'I know nothing about the discussions that are going on.' They said, 'That's good,"' he told the audience. Others explained how they were approached, directly or indirectly, by Joe Sims, the lawyer for Jonathan B. Postel, an Internet founder who drafted the corporation plan just before he died last month. But the explanations seemed too simple for much of the audience, who seemed convinced the board was selected to carry out a secret agenda for unknown special interests. Sensing that the audience was not satisfied with the explanations, Sims jumped to the microphone and explained that Postel chose the interim board himself, with input from around the world. The goal, he said, was to find people who had no history or stake in the years-long international debates over how to move Internet governance from the public to the private sector. Sims said Postel made the selections only after ruling out an election because there was no clear electorate. The interim board now faces the same problem as it tries to finalize the process for establishing a membership and supporting organization. Gregory Crew, a board member and the chairman of the Australian Communications Industry Forum Ltd., said the corporation would appoint an advisory panel to make recommendations on how a board-electing membership should be structured to insure sufficient accountability. "There needs to be a mechanism where people who come up with an idea in their garage can be heard," one participant said. Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/maillist.html * * * * From douglas Mon Nov 16 15:10:25 1998 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:10:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: free stuff to good home(s)!! Message-ID: <199811162310.PAA25161@scn.org> FYI... > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:41:59 -0500 > From: "Venetia Runnion" > To: douglas at scn.org > Subject: Re: Fwd: Remaining Computers > > I knew that you'd make me type this! Here goes: > > Available to whoever will come and take them away > 33/486 CPU > Apple Monitors (4) > IBM Jr PC without monitor > Mac Classic II (3) > Mac II si (2) > Mac LC (1) > Mac LC III (3) > Mac Performa 200 > Mac Plus (2) > Mac SE (1) > Mac SE Super Drive > Mitac Monitors (3) > > Call Tracy, Paulette or Venetia at 206-763-7364 for more details. > > >>> Doug Schuler 11/11 4:20 PM >>> > Venetia, > > Thanks for the note. Be happy to help give the stuff away. > I need plain text, however. Can you send me that? > > -- Doug > > > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:52:53 -0500 > > From: "Venetia Runnion" > > To: douglas at scn.org > > Cc: PNobel at claytongrp.com, TPerkins at claytongrp.com > > Subject: Fwd: Remaining Computers > > > > Doug, your last posting was so successful at getting rid of our old = > > computers that we'd like you to do it again. Here's a list of our = > > remaining hardware. I don't know much more about any of it except what it = > > says here. If people are interested in any or all of this equipment, then = > > they can call Paulette, Tracy or me at 206-763-7364 for details. It's = > > theirs for the taking! Thanks a lot, Venetia > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/maillist.html * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Tue Nov 17 09:51:32 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:51:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN vs non-SCN IPs in Community Pages (fwd) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:05:07 -0800 (PST) From: Rod Clark To: Terry Trimingham Cc: services at scn.org, webmasters at scn.org Subject: Re: SCN vs non-SCN IPs in Community Pages > Well, I figured there was no consensus, that is why the question > was being asked. However, your reply did not answer my question. Is > my understanding of what the question was correct? Was the question > Melissa asked referring to re-organizing the topic pages, or > something else? Terry, The question was about whether SCN's "Community Pages" menus should mostly feature an index of what's on SCN's server, and secondarily have some other information available about outside sites, or on the other hand whether the SCN site should try harder than we've done in the past to be a comprehensive and up-to-date guide to worthwhile sites all over the city. That's something we've never really tried to be, for most of the Community Pages topics. Steve Hoffman was the one who actually asked this question, during his recent reorganization of the Activism pages. It's not an easy question, for one thing because it would mean a lot more time and work needed. Who's going to do that work? Basically I'm not, and you're not. So this means more volunteers involved in the Web site, and then we'd have to figure out how we organize and manage those people. How do we maintain the quality and focus of the result? Right now, SCN has some good menus and some poor ones. Some of the Community Pages menus of outside links, in my opinion, are too out of date and too out of touch with their subject matter. Your earlier question about Web-related "job descriptions" was a good one. We haven't yet discussed such a job description for the topic editors. Ideally we should come up with something that everyone is clear on, and can agree with. If you'd like to write down what you think that should be, that would help, and it's something we should talk about at the next meeting or two. Rod * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Tue Nov 17 09:52:14 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:52:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN vs non-SCN IPs in Community Pages (fwd) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:42:27 -0800 (PST) From: Rod Clark To: Terry Trimingham Cc: services at scn.org, webmasters at scn.org Subject: Re: SCN vs non-SCN IPs in Community Pages > Your earlier question about Web-related "job descriptions" was a > good one. We haven't yet discussed such a job description for the > topic editors. Terry, We also haven't come up with one for the Webmaster. Tom and I have winged it, pretty much. Maybe we could elect the 1999 chair of the Webmasters committee (which is to say, the Webmaster) this year at either our November or December meeting. The topic editors, in my view, should also be elected annually. Rod * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From Kathy.Gill at PSS.Boeing.com Wed Nov 18 10:32:58 1998 From: Kathy.Gill at PSS.Boeing.com (Gill, Kathy) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:32:58 -0800 Subject: Blind Man Sues for Accessible Web/Wa Post Op-Ed Message-ID: <016B2EBE48ADD011BEFC00805FFE7524027BD50E@xch-rtn-12.ca.boeing.com> Here's a WA POST Rant in response to a lawsuit filed regarding access to bus schedules on the web -- and a copy of the letter I sent The WAPost. I encourage ya'll to read Raspberry's op-ed and respond ... But someone already has come up with something that works quite well for most of us: Web sites with lots of graphics, sound, video clips and such that make it possible to provide useful information in user-friendly ways (and also to facilitate the advertising that makes many Web sites worth providing in the first place). Apparently a return to a text-based system would make it easier for the visually impaired, though arguably less attractive for the rest of us. Is that a violation? RE: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-11/16/010l-111698-idx.html Mr. Raspberry, it is YOU who needs to "get a grip." The World Wide Web is predicated on open standards and open access -- access to information regardless of computing platform or software. Coding a web site so that it easily accessible to voice output devices as well as "graphical" browsers like Netscape Communicator is not only good web design -- it is required if a web site wants to be compliant with HTML 4.0, the current standard for code. If your rant is "should public computing kiosks have voice output as well as visual output" -- that is a different rant. But all government web sites should be coded to be accessible to all citizens -- after all, the sites are being built with public money to provide access to public information. And, the tools to make the information easily accessible are readily available and do not pose an undue burden on the web site designer. Your op-ed piece falls victim to its faulty premise -- that the only sites that are universally accessible are "text-only." Not so! Just check out sites with Bobby (http://www.cast.org/bobby/) and you'll see that sites do not have to be "boring" to be accessible. Kathy E. Gill Web Designer Bellevue WA > Kathy E. Gill > DCAC/MRM Production Visibility Support -- 425.234.2004, pager 425.568.0195 > Continuous effort -- not strength or intelligence -- is the key to > unlocking our potential. > ~ Liane Cardes > Microsoft Exchange: the perfect name for its users' greatest desire! > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From kv9x at scn.org Wed Nov 18 20:40:21 1998 From: kv9x at scn.org (Brian High) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 20:40:21 -0800 Subject: Keeping your messages off the web Message-ID: <000901be1376$b7c8a040$0b8795cf@metals.arilabs.com> X-No-Archive: Yes scn at scn, To make it easier to keep a post from making it onto the web archive, you can enter X-No-Archive: Yes on the first blank line of the body of your messages. (Like I did on this one.) --Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From be718 at scn.org Thu Nov 19 14:11:08 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:11:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: How do we deal with the renewed Olympics push? Message-ID: Seattle democracy is happening again. Citizens establish a position, and then officials ignore the citizens. Now there is a renewed effort to go outside of Seattle to get the Olympcs sited in Seattle. Please send contact information out to us so we can oppose the renewed efforts to bring in the Olympics. Thanks, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From kv9x at scn.org Fri Nov 20 11:26:41 1998 From: kv9x at scn.org (Brian High) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:26:41 -0800 Subject: discussion of web archival Message-ID: <001001be14bb$b4a4ed60$0b8795cf@metals.arilabs.com> scn at scn, There has been a discussion on services at scn of various issues relating to archival of this email list on the web. However, many of the subscribers of this list may also have in interest in participating in the discussion as well. In any case, I apologize that my message about the X-No-Archive setting was MIME encoded, as that made it hard to read. If you could't read it, all I said was that if you don't want you message to be archived on the web, put this line as the first line in the body of your messsage: X-No-Archive: Yes ... and the message will not appear in the web archive. Also, there is the possibilty that someone may forward something that another person wrote to this list ... without asking the quoted person for permission ... but this issue is nothing new and is not specific to the issue of web archival. Also, some posts to this list are forwards of copyrighted material, like newspaper articles. It would probably be wise to keep these out of the archive. However, what you choose to post is entirely up to you, keeping in mind applicable laws and the scn user agreement (that you sign when you get an scn account.) Also, since our majaordomo software is not configured for the X-No-Archive string, marked messages still end up in the majordomo archive ... which can only be obtained by list subscribers through an email request to majordomo. --Brian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bf818 at scn.org Fri Nov 20 17:27:41 1998 From: bf818 at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 17:27:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: pine Message-ID: <199811210127.RAA06800@scn.org> I recently wrote about attachments that are unreadable. The only answer you offered was a complicated (to me) process using Pine. I have never been able to use Pine--my mind just doesn't work that way I guess. It seems awfully outmoded, clumsy and un-friendly. Why is this necessary? I also asked what language to tell people to send their attachmnents in so my server could read them. This might be a better way for me to go if the senders are agreeable. It might even help me load it into readable form into my Wordperfect, which has many formats available. Can you just tell me what formats the Freeport e-mail will accept--if that's an appropriate question? Below I'm pasting in the identifying labels on each of the two recent attachments. Perhaps you can tell me something about them that would be helpful. ====================================== Magnabloc attachment: -----=_NextPart_000_0036_01BE12D5.F8E45480 >>Content-Type: application/msword; >> name="Thank you for your interest in Magna BlocTM Technology.doc" >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 ======================================== Matrix attachment (microsoft word doc) --------------48EE50934B1A Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Atalk email.wri" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Atalk email.wri" ========================================= Sorry I'm so incapable on the keyboard, but I can't help it. Anyway, it certainly seems to me as though Pine is a step backward, even if it is "multi-lingual"! Sincerely, Virginia Meyer * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Sun Nov 22 15:29:29 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 15:29:29 -0800 Subject: Community? Message-ID: <199811222338.PAA10460@scn.org> Some interesting parallels to SCN in the current issue of Seattle Weekly (11/19). Article on page 7 - "Yellers and screamers - a community council dispute calls into question the neighborhood governance model." It brings up one of the endless questions faced by SCN - how is it that people can love the idea of community, and at the same time act so despicably toward its members? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Sun Nov 22 16:17:52 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 16:17:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Community? In-Reply-To: <199811222338.PAA10460@scn.org> Message-ID: Several answers to your question, Steve. 1. Some people's view of communication is simply to spread cynicism rather than do positive work. 2. Some people's view of community is simply as a lab they can run their own self-directed experients. 3. Some people's view of community service is to ignore the community's needs and defend difficult technology. If you have any more questions, Steve, by all means ask them. By the way, what projects are you currently working on? Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Steve wrote: > > Some interesting parallels to SCN in the current issue of Seattle > Weekly (11/19). Article on page 7 - "Yellers and screamers - a > community council dispute calls into question the neighborhood > governance model." > > It brings up one of the endless questions faced by SCN - how is it > that people can love the idea of community, and at the same time act > so despicably toward its members? > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Sun Nov 22 17:12:31 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 17:12:31 -0800 Subject: Community? Message-ID: <199811230121.RAA05564@scn.org> Rich, as I just told you in a personal email, everybody knows you do lots of good work at SCN. Perhaps it's not possible to do that kind of work and still feel that others are measuring up to the same standards, with the same commitment to the organization's goals. Maybe life at nonprofits just doesn't work that way. Sure wish it did, though... ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 16:17:52 -0800 (PST) From: Rich Littleton Subject: Re: Community? Several answers to your question, Steve. 1. Some people's view of communication is simply to spread cynicism rather than do positive work. 2. Some people's view of community is simply as a lab they can run their own self-directed experients. 3. Some people's view of community service is to ignore the community's needs and defend difficult technology. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Sun Nov 22 22:26:10 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 22:26:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Community? In-Reply-To: <199811230121.RAA05564@scn.org> Message-ID: Steve and I have communicated privately and I have to apologize to him. I got thin skinned, jumped to conclusions, and was generally a jerk. [So unusual for me ... (-: ] Steve, thanks for communicating your observations, and don't let my idiocy or anyone else's dissuade you. Apologies. ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Steve wrote: > Rich, as I just told you in a personal email, everybody knows you do > lots of good work at SCN. Perhaps it's not possible to do that kind > of work and still feel that others are measuring up to the same > standards, with the same commitment to the organization's goals. > Maybe life at nonprofits just doesn't work that way. Sure wish it > did, though... > > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 16:17:52 -0800 (PST) > From: Rich Littleton > Subject: Re: Community? > > > Several answers to your question, Steve. > > 1. Some people's view of communication is simply to spread cynicism > rather than do positive work. > > 2. Some people's view of community is simply as a lab they can run > their own self-directed experients. > > 3. Some people's view of community service is to ignore the > community's needs and defend difficult technology. > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at saltmine.com Mon Nov 23 08:47:22 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:47:22 -0800 Subject: Community? Message-ID: <01BE16BD.E3DEEBE0.jmabel@saltmine.com> It is clear that this email is intended as an attack on someone, but you apparently don't have the nerve to say who. May I point out that in the recent debate over the relative merits of Unix and MS Windows-based email tools, both sides, presumably sincerely, argued that the tools they were advocating were easier to use? Although some people (on both sides) got out of line in their tone, that is a separate issue. To be honest, I mostly track the content of what people are saying and promptly forget who its from, so I have no idea which side you were on. Either way, I think your point #3 is a totally cheap shot. -----Original Message----- From: Rich Littleton [SMTP:be718 at scn.org] Sent: Sunday, November 22, 1998 4:18 PM To: Steve Cc: scn at scn.org Subject: Re: Community? Several answers to your question, Steve. 1. Some people's view of communication is simply to spread cynicism rather than do positive work. 2. Some people's view of community is simply as a lab they can run their own self-directed experients. 3. Some people's view of community service is to ignore the community's needs and defend difficult technology. If you have any more questions, Steve, by all means ask them. By the way, what projects are you currently working on? Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Steve wrote: > > Some interesting parallels to SCN in the current issue of Seattle > Weekly (11/19). Article on page 7 - "Yellers and screamers - a > community council dispute calls into question the neighborhood > governance model." > > It brings up one of the endless questions faced by SCN - how is it > that people can love the idea of community, and at the same time act > so despicably toward its members? > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn All messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Mon Nov 23 13:35:02 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:35:02 -0800 Subject: Community? In-Reply-To: <01BE16BD.E3DEEBE0.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: <199811232143.NAA14547@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes Maybe it helps to know we're not alone in these conflicts. Here are a few excerpts from the article I referred to in the original message (about the expulsion of two board members from the North Beacon Hill Community Council). See if this sounds familiar - Roger Pence, Council President: "We're not just going to walk away and leave the community affairs to the yellers and screamers." "People don't like to be insulted and held up for contempt just because of a difference of opinion. We've lost several people from our organization just because they don't want to deal with these people anymore." "I've talked to city department heads who have been called liars in meetings - you just don't do that. To be active in community issues, you need a certain amount of people skills." (One of the evicted members): "I think it's too bad when a community cannot have strong advocates for different viewpoints." Roger Valdez, Council VP: ...if the community council can't start working together, it will become irrelevant. "We're going to have people continue to walk away from these problems, and the real loser is the neighborhood. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at saltmine.com Mon Nov 23 14:52:47 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:52:47 -0800 Subject: Community? Message-ID: <01BE16F0.EFC06C80.jmabel@saltmine.com> x-no-archive: yes When someone starts lying, you have to be able to say so. This hasn't happened in the last year in SCN, but it has happened before that. I omit to mention the name, since he is no longer in the organization. -----Original Message----- From: Steve [SMTP:steve at advocate.net] Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 1:35 PM To: scn at scn.org Subject: RE: Community? x-no-archive: yes Maybe it helps to know we're not alone in these conflicts. Here are a few excerpts from the article I referred to in the original message (about the expulsion of two board members from the North Beacon Hill Community Council). See if this sounds familiar - Roger Pence, Council President: "We're not just going to walk away and leave the community affairs to the yellers and screamers." "People don't like to be insulted and held up for contempt just because of a difference of opinion. We've lost several people from our organization just because they don't want to deal with these people anymore." "I've talked to city department heads who have been called liars in meetings - you just don't do that. To be active in community issues, you need a certain amount of people skills." (One of the evicted members): "I think it's too bad when a community cannot have strong advocates for different viewpoints." Roger Valdez, Council VP: ...if the community council can't start working together, it will become irrelevant. "We're going to have people continue to walk away from these problems, and the real loser is the neighborhood. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Mon Nov 23 19:40:57 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:40:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Community? In-Reply-To: <01BE16F0.EFC06C80.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: That Joe Mabel does have an elegant simplicity to his messages. Good point. Thanks, Joe. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > x-no-archive: yes > > When someone starts lying, you have to be able to say so. This hasn't > happened in the last year in SCN, but it has happened before that. I omit > to mention the name, since he is no longer in the organization. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve [SMTP:steve at advocate.net] > Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 1:35 PM > To: scn at scn.org > Subject: RE: Community? > > x-no-archive: yes > > > Maybe it helps to know we're not alone in these conflicts. Here are > a few excerpts from the article I referred to in the original > message (about the expulsion of two board members from the North > Beacon Hill Community Council). See if this sounds familiar - > > > Roger Pence, Council President: > > "We're not just going to walk away and leave the community affairs > to the yellers and screamers." > > "People don't like to be insulted and held up for contempt just > because of a difference of opinion. We've lost several people from > our organization just because they don't want to deal with these > people anymore." > > "I've talked to city department heads who have been called liars in > meetings - you just don't do that. To be active in community > issues, you need a certain amount of people skills." > > (One of the evicted members): "I think it's too bad when a > community cannot have strong advocates for different viewpoints." > > Roger Valdez, Council VP: ...if the community council can't start > working together, it will become irrelevant. "We're going to have > people continue to walk away from these problems, and the real loser > is the neighborhood. > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Tue Nov 24 10:02:56 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:02:56 -0800 Subject: Filtering Message-ID: <199811241811.KAA15422@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes Judge Rules Against Filters at Library Pamela Mendels NY Times 11/24/98 In a major decision supporting unfettered access to the Internet in public libraries, a federal judge on Monday struck down the policy of the Loudoun County, Va., library system to use filtering software on all computer terminals. "Such a policy offends the guarantee of free speech in the First Amendment and is, therefore, unconstitutional," Judge Leonie M. Brinkema, of the United States district court for the Eastern District of Virginia in Alexandria, said in a 46-page decision issued late Monday. Brinkema wrote that the use of filters, made by a private company and sold to the library, also constituted a form of prior restraint on distribution of speech, and asserted that "a defendant cannot avoid its constitutional obligation by contracting out its decision making to a private entity." Brinkema issued a permanent injunction that will block the filtering policy. Library officials can appeal the decision to the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, in Richmond. The ruling comes at a time when librarians nationwide are grappling with whether to allow patrons restricted Internet access or full access, meaning users would be able to view sexually graphic material not ordinarily available on library bookshelves. Today about 15 percent of libraries have installed filters on at least some of their terminals, according to a recent survey from the American Library Association. The decision leaves unanswered whether it would be constitutionally acceptable to use filters on terminals that are set aside for children. The lawsuit challenging the library policy was brought late last year by a civic organization called Mainstream Loudoun as well as a handful of individual patrons. Later, publishers of eight Web sites, from a safe sex page to an online publication examining ethical issues, joined the suit, saying their speech had been censored by the policy. All eight sites had been blocked at one point by the filtering software, called X-Stop, but were unblocked after the suit was filed, according to Ann Beeson, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union, which represented the publishers. Lawrence S. Ottinger, senior staff lawyer for the People for the American Way Foundation, which helped bring the suit on behalf of the Loudoun patrons, hailed the decision. "I think it's a landmark victory for public libraries and the right of the public to read what they want in public libraries," he said. Ken Bass, a lawyer defending the library, had just begun reading the decision late Monday. He asked to withhold comment until he had finished. The library had argued, among other things, that the filters were necessary to keep obscene material that is not protected by the First Amendment out of the library. Supporters of the filters also said that if pornographic images could be shown on terminals, this display could create a hostile working environment for library employees, violating sexual harassment laws. But opponents said that the filters are so flawed that they block access not only to sexual material, but to legitimate material as well. At one point, they said, X-Stop had blocked Web sites put up by such groups as the Quakers and the American Association of University Women. David W. Burt, founder of the pro-filtering organization Filtering Facts, said that he believed courts would eventually look upon filtering as constitutionally acceptable. However, he added, "In the short-term, the decision will scare a lot of librarians -- and city attorneys -- off from filtering for adults." Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Wed Nov 25 00:18:12 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:18:12 -0800 Subject: Community? Message-ID: <199811250829.AAA23927@scn.org> Forwarded with permission. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:37:40 -0800 (PST) From: Rich Littleton To: Steve Subject: RE: Community? Sounds like they just can't take a good discussion. The problem I have with politeness is that it usually is an excuse for (1) an intentional two-faced evading of the issues or (2) an unintentional, but spineless, cowaring behind claims for calmness that is a disguise for hiding from the issues. [I know, you all want me to really say what's on my mind. (*:] My tongue is partially (only partially, mind you) in my cheek. But I have seen too much used-car-salesman diplomacy that has nurtured delay of essential changes for a long time. (e.g. delaying electronic voting, supporting the un-elected and restricted Executive Committee as a decision-making body, allowing the board to cut their meeting at least in half, etc.) The bottom line is, if an organization has a lot of tension, then it probably has a lot of choke points in the membership access to the basic processes (as is the case with SCN). Civility is nice, but not as an excuse to bury dysfunctional processes in an organization. Soooooo, prove me wrong. Let's see some serious pushing by the "calm ones" to get some of these basic issues fixed. One bright spot: Jim H. is coordinating the e-mail revision. Good show, Jim. (By the way, Jim, when is our next e-mail meetingJ) Peacefully yours, Rich * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at aa.net Wed Nov 25 01:39:27 1998 From: sharma at aa.net (Sharma) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:39:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is Civility Cowardice or Evasion? Other Choices Please In-Reply-To: <199811250829.AAA23927@scn.org> Message-ID: Regardless of Rich's enjoyment of "shooting from the lip", I fail to see how it improves the functioning of SCNA. Verbal bullying in the name of challenging "spineless cowering as a way of evading the discussion of issues" is annoying to me, to say the least. I have no interest in working with anyone who feels that intentional rudeness and verbal attacks are the equivalent of a "good discussion". I think that there is a need for serious discussion of the need for change in SCNA. I don't think Rich's "style" is "serious", I feel it is bullying and implies that anyone who does not want to join him in the mud is afraid to face issues, or afraid to fight with him, or hiding something. It assumes that those on the board, for example, have unlimited time to jump when he snaps his fingers, and if we don't, we deserve personal abuse. SCNA was set up to be both stable and open to change. It still is. Keeping the system running is the first need. Changing the system, the software programs which keep it running, is very time intensive and requires the work of volunteers on the operations committee. The board can request that operations work harder in areas where the users really, really want change, such as the implementation of PINE for example, but we can't order them to do so because they are also volunteers. Rich may have forgotten that some of our attempts in electronic democracy nearly brought the system down with email loops. Any change needs a person or committee which will focus on that change. In spite of Rich's contempt for the efforts of many, many people, some changes which are needed have so far proven unsolvable, for example the database project. Rich you may believe that your style of communicating is fun, and helps SCNA, but it has also hurt many people's feelings and has driven some volunteers away. It may not seem to you important, but not everyone is willing to continue to participate if the price is being attacked by you, and by others, who prefer that as a mode of discussion. I personally am unwilling to have the "community culture" be one of "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen", because it will mean that only those who enjoy trading attacks will stick around. Is that what you want? Sincerely, -sharma On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Steve wrote: > Forwarded with permission. > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:37:40 -0800 (PST) > From: Rich Littleton > To: Steve > Subject: RE: Community? > > Sounds like they just can't take a good discussion. > > The problem I have with politeness is that it usually is an excuse for > (1) an intentional two-faced evading of the issues or (2) an > unintentional, but spineless, cowaring behind claims for calmness that > is a disguise for hiding from the issues. > > [I know, you all want me to really say what's on my mind. (*:] > > My tongue is partially (only partially, mind you) in my cheek. But I > have seen too much used-car-salesman diplomacy that has nurtured delay > of essential changes for a long time. (e.g. delaying electronic > voting, supporting the un-elected and restricted Executive Committee > as a decision-making body, allowing the board to cut their meeting at > least in half, etc.) > > The bottom line is, if an organization has a lot of tension, then it > probably has a lot of choke points in the membership access to the > basic processes (as is the case with SCN). > > Civility is nice, but not as an excuse to bury dysfunctional processes > in an organization. > > Soooooo, prove me wrong. Let's see some serious pushing by the "calm > ones" to get some of these basic issues fixed. > > One bright spot: Jim H. is coordinating the e-mail revision. Good > show, Jim. (By the way, Jim, when is our next e-mail meetingJ) > > Peacefully yours, > > Rich > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Wed Nov 25 08:30:55 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:30:55 -0800 Subject: News and the web Message-ID: <199811251639.IAA16894@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes Trouble Deepens for Traditional Media. And it's Only Going to Get Worse. Annette Hamilton Executive Producer, ZDNet AnchorDesk 11/25/98 Forty years ago, newspapers were confronted with a massive strategic challenge that forced a powerful and entrenched industry to transform itself. I'm talking, of course, about the rise of television -- an exciting visual medium that siphoned off attention. Audience. Advertising dollars. Employees. And, eventually, influence. Newspapers were forced to adapt or die. They changed their content. They added color photos. They cut costs. Still, many papers merged or went under anyway. Many that survived took refuge in the "credibility factor," the idea that television could never match newspapers for depth, analysis and accuracy. With the rise of the Web, newspapers are face-to-face with another challenge from a previously non-existent medium. One that is putting the squeeze on television and cable news operations, too. And one that removes the shelter of "credibility." Take a look at the latest research. Jupiter Communications reports more than 80% of U.S. online consumers now trust online news as much as they trust newspapers, broadcast television and cable news outlets. An additional 7% view online news as more reliable than other media. Moreover, most consumers (70%) say they do not question the editorial integrity of online news services that also sell goods online. So much for online gossip-monger Matt Drudge being perceived as the Web news standard. These new findings heap pressure on traditional news outlets to compete with the Web's 24-hour instant newsstand. And that pressure will increase substantially in the months to come as the following five factors take their toll: 1. Online audiences will continue to grow. ZDNet InternetTrak research finds the number of Americans using the Web is increasing at double-digit rates. For instance, between August and October 1998, researchers say 68 million Americans visited Web sites -- up 17% from the previous three-month period. 2. Online news sites will continue to benefit from high-profile news events. As the Lewinsky scandal illustrates, people have a strong desire for real-time news delivery. And there will always be another big news story that comes along to lure more information junkies to the Web. 3. Online will siphon off the most attractive audiences. Local news Web sites in the United States have a predominantly male, high-income and loyal audience who purchase online, according to Internet advertising research firm the Laredo Group's study of nearly 10,000 newspaper Web site users. In addition, 72% of those who access local news sites purchase online -- and the higher the income the higher the rate of online purchasing. 4. Online will siphon off revenues. Advertisers are in the business of selling stuff. So why wouldn't they want to advertise where the spenders are? (See #3). And that's precisely what they plan to do. According to Veronis, Suhler & Associates, a media industry investment bank, online advertising spending is expected to surge to $6.5 billion by 2002, up from $906 million last year. 5. Online will siphon off best and brightest employees. In the past, journalists joked about having to take a "vow of poverty" to work in their desired field. But increasingly, non-media organizations are luring away writers and editors -- even as newspapers and magazines continue to low-ball salaries and cut positions. Even a paper's own Web site presents competition for talent: Web editorial workers now pull down $12,000 more on average per year than entry-level reporters -- who earn an average salary of $22,609. Overall, there appears to be little upside for traditional news media. To stem the coming losses, analysts are encouraging news outlets to step up their online efforts -- with an eye toward leveraging the trend toward online news as much as possible. For instance, developing online commerce that links to corresponding editorial content. The rise of television did not kill newspapers. And the rise of the Internet will not kill traditional news outlets such as television, cable and print. But it will definitely redistribute the power base, perhaps faster than traditional media realize. And transform them in the process. Copyright (c) 1998 ZDNet * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Sat Nov 28 12:32:19 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:32:19 -0800 Subject: Possible model for SCN? Message-ID: <199811282041.MAA28630@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes Web Neighborhoods www.membersites.com PC Magazine 12/1/98 Community has always been an important part of the online experience. With the success of the Web, personal home pages have become a hot commodity. As a result, we're now starting to see a new breed of online community. One such community is Interactive Toaster's MemberSites, which is user created and managed and includes the basics of online interaction, such as chat rooms, newsletters, events calendars, message boards, member directories, and photo albums. MemberSites also includes publishing tools and community-management features. To start our own online community, we registered via a simple form and then proceeded to build our site. Setup was easy; we were able to customize the name of our site, our welcome messages, and our time zone. We were also able to choose from a wide selection of site graphics, but we couldn't upload our own for the site itself, although we could add graphics to our photo album. Once we had the basic pieces of our site in place, we started playing with the interactive and publishing elements. First we created a newsletter. You can choose an HTML-formatted newsletter (for those who prefer to do the coding themselves) or a less-advanced option that let us add text and graphics without knowing HTML. We then set up an events calendar. The calendar, which has month or year views, can be updated at any time, and we found setting up events quick and easy. MemberSites' Web-based bulletin boards are somewhat primitive compared with the more elegant examples found on services such as CompuServe. The lack of real threading is a disadvantage, and we noticed that bulletin board pages loaded slowly over a dial-up connection. We did appreciate, however, the option to e-mail replies about a specific topic. MemberSites also comes with a standard chat room, which doesn't provide avatars or other graphic chat elements but should serve the needs of most users. MemberSites also offers users an instant messaging capability. MemberSites is part of the new wave of products that empowers users to build their own communities. Stop by MemberSites: You might just find yourself moving into the neighborhood. Price: Free Interactive Toaster Company Inc, Boca Raton, LA Copyright (c) 1998 ZDNet * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Sat Nov 28 18:59:57 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:59:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Civility and Sharma's Note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From sharma at aa.net Wed Nov 25 01:39:27 1998 From: sharma at aa.net (Sharma) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:39:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is Civility Cowardice or Evasion? Other Choices Message-ID: Please On Nov. 25, 1998, Sharma Oliver wrote: "Regardless of Rich's enjoyment of "shooting from the lip", I fail to see how it improves the functioning of SCNA. Verbal bullying in the name of challenging "spineless cowering as a way of evading the discussion of issues" is annoying to me, to say the least. I have no interest in working with anyone who feels that intentional rudeness and verbal attacks are the equivalent of a "good discussion". " ------------ Rich replies: Sharma, you really should specify my crimes. The message you responded to did not have any of the things you are complaining about. Next time, do include the instances that demonstrate what you are talking about. However, it is good to see some fire from you. And you even make some good points. We need to hear from you on the public lists more often. It looks like you figured something had gone too far, and you sent a well-aimed blast in response. I go along with that approach. I've done it myself. And, when the calm communications don't get the job done, you are right to blast away. I am certainly not in any position to complain about your unleashing a little righteous anger. I might not agree with all your points, but I applaud your stepping up an laying it on the line. Sharma continued: I think that there is a need for serious discussion of the need for change in SCNA. I don't think Rich's "style" is "serious", I feel it is bullying and implies that anyone who does not want to join him in the mud is afraid to face issues, or afraid to fight with him, or hiding something. It assumes that those on the board, for example, have unlimited time to jump when he snaps his fingers, and if we don't, we deserve personal abuse. Rich replies: You touch on several items here. Let's look at each. A Need for Serious Discussion Righto! However, I haven't heard much from you on issues. I assume you do serious discussion in board meetings, but since most of us are not board members, we don't witness much of it. Wednesday night, at the monthly meeting, which ended early, I invited you to sit down at coffee, but you declined. After the annual meeting, a whole herd of us went for coffee. You declined. You talk with your inner circle, but when do you talk with members to get member input? At least join in on the list discussions more. As for the seriousness of my "style." Hmmmmmm. If you think I am not serious about the message, you are burying you've been in a closet. That is the important element to me -- the message. As to style, I've seen board members brush off gentle communications too readily, and use phoney reasons (lack of respect, for example) to brush off others. I suspect that part of the wish for sweetened and gentle tones is because it makes it easier for board members to evade. For example, back at the beginning of the year, the issue was raised: put out an advance agenda before the board meetings so members can see what the board will be working. There was no haranguing followup by me. So, the idea just sat, and sat, and sat, and sat, and disappeared. You did nothing with it. No board member did anything with it. Now, we're not talking complexities here. Brian High puts out an advance agenda with his committee. He sends out a notice of the agenda in advance. Why can't the board? I personally think the reason is that the board values silence from the members far more than it values democratic input or open communication. I could be wrong, but the record suggests that I'm not. Bullying ... mud ... Well I never ....! Land o' Goshen! Bullying, eh? I don't think that is a well defined term of art. That's a new twist from a board member, however, Joel and Gianni accused me of not being respectful. Actually, bullying is to use force/power unfairly. I don't see where I have enough force/power to live up to that definition. Especially if you're referring to my "abuse" of board members. Accusing an SCN member of "bullying" board members is sort of like accusing a woman of being "pushy" because she is insistent; that word choice might say more about the accuser than about the accused. The inappropriateness of the term is even more noticible when one reads the message that triggered your letter. The same response could be applied to your "mud" word. However, semantics aside, your basic point is: You don't like argumentative language on the list communications. I think you are right. Sweet and gentle is usually preferred by 9 out 10 SCN users. But so is not-going-to-the-dentist. So is not-washing-the-dishes. The question is: does the context call for it? The answer is: It does. Just as you concluded the context called for your well aimed blast at me, Context is key. Assumes board has unlimited time ... You've opened a BIG can of worms here, Sharma. I have to get to some other things right now. I'll get into the question of the board members' time availability in part 2 of this reply to you, later. (I, for one, can hardly wait to hear what I have to say.) Later, Rich * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb140 at scn.org Sun Nov 29 09:58:02 1998 From: bb140 at scn.org (Barb Weismann) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:58:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Civility and Sharma's Note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rich: Most of this discussion is of secondary consequence to a point I believe Sharma made: doing the job. Where is the substantive, job/work related issue here? Get lost from that, and you are using us for group therapy. I for one just don't care about that. I want to see forward movement on issues. You brought up a major one: board agendas. This is of rather vast importance. The membership does have the right to know what business is going to be conducted at board meetings and to know the results of that business in a timely manner. Otherwise, I personally feel that board members are abdicating their responsibilities and/or expropriating power from the membership. We can, of course, vote them out. But wouldn't it be easier if we just asked them to get a little more organized and responsive, like: publish the dang agenda, you guys, along with the meeting place and time; at least a week prior to the meeting. If there is very little on there, well, you can gradually learn how to remember to post agenda items, like, learning the job, as you go along. I remember I also asked, "how does one get on the agenda for a Board meeting?" and what I got was not a routine (send us an e mail with your proposal, we will post you one the agenda and return it to you) what I got was invitations to the meeting. No one ever asked me what the item was nor told me whether I would be on the agenda. The board isn't a party; please make up some routines to be responsive to membership. Barb P.S. Rich, I think I believe more in the steam engine approach (regular, steady pressure which is accessed until full throttle is reached) than the internal combustion approach (lots of little explosions push the pistons). On Sat, 28 Nov 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > >From sharma at aa.net Thu Nov 26 00:55:30 1998 > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:39:27 -0800 (PST) > From: Sharma > To: scn at scn.org > Subject: Is Civility Cowardice or Evasion? Other Choices > Please > > On Nov. 25, 1998, Sharma Oliver wrote: > > "Regardless of Rich's enjoyment of "shooting from the lip", I fail to see > how it improves the functioning of SCNA. Verbal bullying in the name > of challenging "spineless cowering as a way of evading the discussion > of issues" is annoying to me, to say the least. I have no interest in > working with anyone who feels that intentional rudeness and verbal > attacks are the equivalent of a "good discussion". " > > ------------ > > Rich replies: > > Sharma, you really should specify my crimes. The message you > responded to did not have any of the things you are complaining about. > Next time, do include the instances that demonstrate what you are talking > about. > > However, it is good to see some fire from you. And you even make > some good points. We need to hear from you on the public lists more > often. > > It looks like you figured something had gone too far, and you sent > a well-aimed blast in response. I go along with that approach. I've done > it myself. And, when the calm communications don't get the job done, you > are right to blast away. I am certainly not in any position to complain > about your unleashing a little righteous anger. I might not agree with > all your points, but I applaud your stepping up an laying it on the line. > > Sharma continued: > I think that there is a need for serious discussion of the need for change > in SCNA. I don't think Rich's "style" is "serious", I feel it is bullying > and implies that anyone who does not want to join him in the mud is afraid > to face issues, or afraid to fight with him, or hiding something. It > assumes that those on the board, for example, have unlimited time to jump > when he snaps his fingers, and if we don't, we deserve personal abuse. > > Rich replies: > You touch on several items here. Let's look at each. > > A Need for Serious Discussion > Righto! However, I haven't heard much from you on issues. I > assume you do serious discussion in board meetings, but since most of us > are not board members, we don't witness much of it. Wednesday night, at > the monthly meeting, which ended early, I invited you to sit down at > coffee, but you declined. After the annual meeting, a whole herd of us > went for coffee. You declined. You talk with your inner circle, but when > do you talk with members to get member input? > > At least join in on the list discussions more. > > As for the seriousness of my "style." Hmmmmmm. If you think > I am not serious about the message, you are burying you've been in a > closet. That is the important element to me -- the message. As to style, > I've seen board members brush off gentle communications too readily, > and use phoney reasons (lack of respect, for example) to brush off > others. I suspect that part of the wish for sweetened and gentle tones > is because it makes it easier for board members to evade. > > For example, back at the beginning of the year, the issue was > raised: put out an advance agenda before the board meetings so > members can see what the board will be working. There was no > haranguing followup by me. So, the idea just sat, and sat, and sat, and > sat, and disappeared. You did nothing with it. No board member did > anything with it. > > Now, we're not talking complexities here. Brian High puts out an > advance agenda with his committee. He sends out a notice of the > agenda in advance. Why can't the board? I personally think the reason > is that the board values silence from the members far more than it values > democratic input or open communication. I could be wrong, but the > record suggests that I'm not. > > Bullying ... mud ... > Well I never ....! Land o' Goshen! Bullying, eh? I don't think > that is a well defined term of art. That's a new twist from a board > member, however, Joel and Gianni accused me of not being respectful. > Actually, bullying is to use force/power unfairly. I don't see where I > have enough force/power to live up to that definition. Especially if > you're referring to my "abuse" of board members. Accusing an SCN member > of "bullying" board members is sort of like accusing a woman of being > "pushy" because she is insistent; that word choice might say more about > the accuser than about the accused. The inappropriateness of the term is > even more noticible when one reads the message that triggered your letter. > > The same response could be applied to your "mud" word. > > However, semantics aside, your basic point is: You don't like > argumentative language on the list communications. I think you are > right. Sweet and gentle is usually preferred by 9 out 10 SCN users. But > so is not-going-to-the-dentist. So is not-washing-the-dishes. The > question is: does the context call for it? > > The answer is: It does. > > Just as you concluded the context called for your well aimed blast > at me, Context is key. > > Assumes board has unlimited time ... > You've opened a BIG can of worms here, Sharma. I have to get to > some other things right now. I'll get into the question of the board > members' time availability in part 2 of this reply to you, later. (I, for > one, can hardly wait to hear what I have to say.) > > Later, > > Rich > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Mon Nov 30 08:55:01 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:55:01 -0800 Subject: Old web pages Message-ID: <199811301704.JAA28212@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes Web Pages Must Live Forever Jakob Nielsen's Alertbox 11/29/98 Once you have put a page on the Web, you need to keep it there indefinitely: Other sites may link to your page, so removing it will cause linkrot and lost business opportunities as you turn away new users. Users may have bookmarked the page because they want to go directly to a relevant part of your site instead of starting at the home page every time. Search engines are slow in updating their databases, so they too will lead users astray if you remove pages. Old content adds value to your site: some users will benefit from the old pages, so why not keep serving these customers? The first three reasons are really arguments why URLs must stay active forever: any URL that has ever been exposed to the outside world must continue to bring up something reasonable when people go to it. Because they will. It is common experience among webmasters that they keep getting hits on URLs that were put out of service several years ago. Even if you believe that the old page has zero value, the old URL should be supported and made into a redirect to the closest related page on the site. Value of Old Content Most old pages do have value for users, so I recommend keeping the pages themselves alive forever. Sure, new content is probably more valuable than old content, but there is more old content to choose from. As an example, consider a site that publishes new content on a weekly basis. After a year, this site will consist of 51 old editions and one new edition. Assuming that new content is ten times as valuable as old content, 84% of the site's value comes from old content. I still get about 50 visitors per week who follow the link to my site from an article about usability in The New York Times four months ago. Adjusting for link click-through, this means that the newspaper provides extra value to many more readers simply by leaving this old article on their server. A great way to establish a reputation as a substantial online service of record. A typical Alertbox accumulates about 80,000 page views over time, only 20,000 of which are received while it is the "current" column. Users benefit from old content because: It may be intrinsically interesting and worth reading even when it's not news (say, a well-written essay) It can become of renewed interest due to later events (what did the new CEO of your main competitor do two jobs ago?) It can have historical interest (how did reviewers view Gone With the Wind when it opened?) It helps with old products (your neighbor has an HP printer from 1995 for sale: will it satisfy your needs?) It provides background information and a richer texture for a website: the true killer app for the Web is diversity (Amazon.com gets many sales from listing a huge number of old books that each sell only a few copies per year; listing out-of-print books that they don't sell adds to the value of the service and makes users more likely to come back) Cost of Old Content >From a site management perspective, the cost of keeping old content is trivial: the cost of hard disk space is close to zero, and the cost of maintaining old files can be very low if they are developed according to the HTML standards or kept in a publishing database. In order to enhance the value of the old content, I recommend investing a small amount of resources on content gardening: Have new articles link to old content for background or supplementary information: since the new content may be written by people who don't know the old stuff, it is often an editorial function to add these links. Maintain the links in the old files: kill or replace outdated ones. Add forward links to the old pages so that they point to newer pages: otherwise users will never discover follow-on products and more recent developments in a case. Remove obsolete or misleading information and replace with current data or a current link (for example, the announcement of a conference or product launch may be replaced with the proceedings or a report from the event; also add a forward link to this year's conference). The cost of maintaining old content may be about 10% of the original cost of developing this content, but since doing so more than doubles the value of the website, it is a good investment. Make Time Explicit It can be confusing for users to stumble across old content if they are looking for current information. Confusion can be minimized by: Explicitly mention the date the page was originally written. Add a prominent disclaimer to point out ways in which the page does no longer apply (e.g., "This product is no longer being manufactured"). Forward-pointing links to the most recent pages about the same topic. Downplay Old Content in Search Listings After a few years of accumulating old content, search results listings can be dominated by pointers to old stuff unless steps are taken to increase the priority of new content. The simplest solution is to have the search engine give a lower weight to old pages. Note that the weight should be computed relative to the creation date and not to the latest modification date (which will often be very recent if the old content has been maintained properly). A more advanced solution is to think of search as more of an index to the site and less of a simple keyword-counting operation. In this model, the search weight of old content will change based on its changing value as a resource for each query. It is a difficult research challenge to fully do this, but a manual approximation would be to have the content gardener change the search weights for each meta-keyword based on its current relevance. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * *