From steve at advocate.net Wed Sep 2 01:06:38 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 00:06:38 -0800 Subject: For all you rabble rousers out there Message-ID: <199809020715.AAA12916@scn.org> Protest Portal Unites Activists Under One URL Bob Tedeschi NY Times 9/2/98 Like countless others, political organizers hailed the Internet as a potential savior: a cheap, easy way to disseminate information, get people into the streets and change the world. Then came the grim reality -- that you can't find an audience if you don't have a catchy URL, a fat publicity budget or a major Web site to carry your link. What leftists have needed is a central source of information about current issues and upcoming events -- a protest portal, as it were. And that is precisely what Evan Henshaw-Plath has created. His site, Protest.Net, offers worldwide protest schedules and links, free of charge, under the umbrella of an easily memorized URL. And while it may not be enough to save the summer of '98 from drifting into activist obscurity, it could bring new volume to civil disobedience in the future. "It's like finding the protest du jour," said David Ronfeldt, senior social scientist at RAND. "Folks across the conflict spectrum are resorting to network strategy and technology to help dispersed individuals link up and act jointly. This Web site fits that model." Other sites, like the Association for Progressive Communications and the Institute for Global Communications offer links to left-leaning activist networks such as PeaceNet and EcoNet, but they don't offer quick access to information about protests. With Protest.Net, not only can a prospective protester find out about an upcoming action in their region, they can also click on different nations and find out where similar efforts are underway. Although the site's creator goes by the e-mail moniker "rabble rouser," he is more entrepreneur than political dissenter. Henshaw-Plath, 21, created an Internet calendar software program in college, and recently received venture capital financing to develop it. "I was talking to some of my friends who are activists about how difficult it is -- how, if you don't happen to see a flyer or if you're not in the right circle, it's hard to know what's going on," he said. "So I took this calendar software and started the site." Since the June 1 launch date, Henshaw-Plath says "about 700" actions have been posted on his site, "whether it's a 10-year-old kid in Australia who wants more humane treatment for wild animals or union organizers who are conducting outreach sessions," he said. "With this, I can simultaneously test my software and give something back to the activists." And for publicity-hungry organizations, "it's definitely a big help," said Brett Wycker, co-founder of the Philadelphia chapter of the Coalition Against the Fur Trade and the Vegan Resistance for Liberation. "It's too early to say what kind of impact it's had on our protests, but our name for the vegan group isn't catchy, and the URL is a mile long, so to have our information in one condensed area is great." Henshaw-Plath said the site "hasn't been up long enough to see trends," but noted that "there was definitely a jump after the recent bombings" in Afghanistan and the Sudan. Indeed, the next protracted United States military operation should be a watershed for protest sites and Internet-generated activism, academics said. According to Jerry M. Lewis, professor of sociology at Kent State University and one of two faculty members present at the May 4, 1970 shootings, "With the Internet, the communication is immediate, and the analysis starts immediately. If we'd had the Internet back then, the reaction to May 4 would've been huge. It would've solidified the anti-war movement." On the other hand, the sheer number of possibilities for information gathering may paralyze potential activists, said Jack Levin, director of the Program for the Study of Violence and Conflict at Northeastern University. "Because you can find seven or eight sides of an issue, it creates a cyber-environment in which one form of protest has to complete against another," he said. "People move faster when they hear one compelling argument, and slower when they're confronted with many sides of an issue. The question is whether someone would take the time and effort to find out all sides, and that remains to be seen." Another open question is what exactly qualifies as a protest worthy of inclusion on the Protest.Net site. "It's really open to anything, unless it's really offensive like the KKK," Henshaw-Plath said, noting that he has not had to pull any protests from the site. "If it was a pro-life protest, I'd probably suggest other ways to promote the cause. This just isn't the right forum." Ronfeldt, of RAND, said another potential pitfall that could slow widescale acceptance of Protest.Net and sites like it is that it may have trouble attracting committed participants. "It sort of invites a lot of revolutionary tourists, and happy-go-lucky activists who want to jump in briefly," he said. "I wonder how the true activists will receive this." So far, the activists are happy to accept anyone who would have them. "If anything, it's good, because it gets all types of audiences interested -- people other than just young college kids," said Wycker of the Coalition Against the Fur Trade and the Vegan Resistance for Liberation. "We definitely want anyone to come out." Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From help at scn.org Thu Sep 3 01:40:44 1998 From: help at scn.org (SCN help) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 01:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thanks (fwd) Message-ID: From the SCN Help Desk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:34:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "W.Martinez" To: help at scn.org Subject: Thanks For the record: The staff at scn rocks. They always returned my calls and made me feel like they were trying to help me fix my problem. Thank you, William Martinez * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Thu Sep 3 18:00:20 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: someone new In-Reply-To: <35EF3041.6530@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, zolotar wrote: > My mother, age 73, Jewish, 7 out of 10 health factor, is thinking about > relocating to Seattle from the Ft. Lauderdale area. She's spent most of > her life living in the Catskill Mtns. Can you folks recommend an area > for her to consider that's socially lively wherein there might also be a > Jewish "community"? Thanks, BAZ II Baz, Maybe the people on the scn at scn.org mailing list could offer some thoughts on that. I've sent your note to them, and we'll see what happens. Rod Clark webadm at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From ljbeedle at scn.org Thu Sep 3 18:18:18 1998 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: someone new In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a number of links posted under the spiritual menu, Jewish in Seattle might be a good place to start. Lois The gene pool could use a little chlorine. On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, Rod Clark wrote: > On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, zolotar wrote: > > > My mother, age 73, Jewish, 7 out of 10 health factor, is thinking about > > relocating to Seattle from the Ft. Lauderdale area. She's spent most of > > her life living in the Catskill Mtns. Can you folks recommend an area > > for her to consider that's socially lively wherein there might also be a > > Jewish "community"? Thanks, BAZ II > > Baz, > > Maybe the people on the scn at scn.org mailing list could offer > some thoughts on that. I've sent your note to them, and we'll > see what happens. > > Rod Clark > webadm at scn.org > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From femme2 at scn.org Fri Sep 4 14:31:57 1998 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Fair -- Call for Volunteers Message-ID: SCN will be participating in the Community Computer Fair on Sept. 11-12 at Seattle Vocational Institute (2120 So. Jackson St.). This fair is presented by the City's Technology Committee, CAMP, SVI, Seattle Public Library, and others. Our part will be something like the University Computer Fair -- we'll be offering free e-mail, talking with folks who want to know more about us, donating some equipment... we plan to do this on Saturday only. Friday is after-school hands-on Pacific Science technology experience and an evening panel discussion. But Saturday will have numerous workshops, exhibits, food, prizes, games... Fair planners expect between 1,000 to 2,000 people, many of them middle and high-school youth. We have quite a few volunteers lined up for our part of the fair, but there is still a need for some of the other fair needs -- registration desk, security, exhibit set-up and tear-down, etc. If you want to do only computer-related stuff, you could free up someone else who is willing to do whatever happens to be needed. And of course if you are available Friday only, you will be appreciated by the fair organizers. This is an excellent opportunity for Seattle Community Network Association to demonstrate that we are indeed a "community" based organization. Please contact Lillie Brinker directly before Tuesday and let her know if you are available. Her phone # is 206-760-1789. Thanks. Lorraine Pozzi femme2 at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Mon Sep 7 09:40:35 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 08:40:35 -0800 Subject: The competition Message-ID: <199809071549.IAA00602@scn.org> Challenges Face Free Email Services (Excerpts) Jesse Berst, Editorial Director ZDNet AnchorDesk 9/7/98 ...my job is to see past the hype and talk about what's really going on. With that in mind, I wanted to take a realistic look at the Internet's most popular free service -- free email. Free email accounts have been an Internet staple since they first appeared two years ago. There are two types. Web-based email shows email messages inside your Web browser. POP-mail services look and work just like the ordinary email account you get at work or through an ISP. In both cases, you "pay" for the service the same way you "pay" for free TV -- through advertisements. Despite their apparent popularity, today's free email services face four problems as they go forward: 1. Bugs. Free email has been subject to several embarrassing glitches. Just last month, for instance, Hotmail and other Web-based providers were faced with two potential security breaches. POP-mail providers have had their own problems, from swamped servers to hack attacks to outages. 2. Questions About Popularity. Some people sign up for free email on a lark, but never really use it. Others use free email as their second or third email account -- a place to send private messages they don't want to appear in their company email. As a result, free email doesn't get used as often as ordinary email -- something that affects its value in the eyes of potential advertisers. 3. Commoditization. What started out as an interesting idea has quickly devolved into a commodity business. For instance, the Free Email Address Directory now lists more than 400 sources of free email. With free email so pervasive, it's getting hard for these businesses to show a unique selling proposition. Indeed, many of the email services that started the trend have since been sold to portals such as Yahoo, Netscape and Microsoft. 4. Lack of Functionality. Web-based email is not as robust, as fast, or as convenient as standard email. It can be painfully slow to wade through your messages. Furthermore, it is not integrated with your standard email. If you're using it as your second account, you have to put up with two separate address books, two mail archives, etc. Unless some innovative company solves these four issues, free email will cease to be an important way to differentiate a Web site. As for those portals that spent tens (or even hundreds) of millions to buy a free email service because they had an intuition it would set them apart -- well, they will have learned the hard way that there's no such thing as a free hunch. Copyright (c) 1998 ZDNet * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Tue Sep 8 00:50:43 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 23:50:43 -0800 Subject: PEN Message-ID: <199809080659.XAA05854@scn.org> Santa Monica Seeking a Return To Online Civic Forum of Yore Rebecca Fairley Raney NY Times 9/7/98 SANTA MONICA, Calif. -- When Santa Monica City Hall first offered online forums nine years ago, the major topic of discussions in this upscale community was the homeless. When citizens sought ways to help people get jobs, Donald Paschal, who was logging on from a public terminal, offered advice from a unique perspective. Paschal had been known to the online group of city officials and residents as an articulate, thoughtful writer. He would like to get a job, Paschal wrote, but he was dirty, he had nowhere to wash his clothes and nowhere to store his belongings. He was, in fact, homeless. People were astonished. They organized to help their online compatriot. Soon, they created a program called Swashlock, for showers, washers and lockers. That was in 1989. It took four years to fully organize Swashlock, but the program has thrived in the five years since. It was the first major civic initiative of the online group, officially known as the Santa Monica Public Electronic Network, or PEN. It was an experiment in electronic democracy that after nine years has become a widely studied model for scholars and municipal officials searching for ways to use online tools to foster citizenship. PEN started as an electronic bulletin board, a pre-Internet technology that allowed owners of computers with modems to read material posted by others and to send and receive text messages. The rapid spread of the Internet since 1994 expanded those early efforts and accelerated the city's progress. Issues that were being tackled in the city nearly a decade ago -- online outreach, community information and services, equal access and universal e-mail -- are now drawing national attention. "Any government that is moving into digital democracy would be well advised to look at Santa Monica," said Tora Bikson, a senior scientist at Rand, the research institution, who has used the city as a case study. "It was the first." These days while outsiders seek the city's counsel, however, local officials are struggling to recapture the enthusiasm that surrounded the network in its early days and to stimulate dwindling online discussions. They have a strong incentive: Santa Monica lost a major public forum last March, when the Copley Newspapers chain shut down The Outlook, the only daily newspaper in this city of 90,000 people. Santa Monica, city officials say, is uniquely suited to fill that void with online forums. Fifty percent of the households here have Internet access, and nearly 1 in 10 residents is a registered user of PEN. This beach city's tradition of online politics sprouted largely because of its unusual demographics and history of contentious politics. Residents are affluent and very well-educated. The median household income was $51,000 in 1990, according to census figures, which also show that 19 percent of residents over age 25 held graduate degrees, about twice the rate in the rest of California. The city is also a hotbed of grass-roots activism. It takes a year to design a park because of the months of hearings that the residents demand. City Council meetings typically run until midnight. Citizens have plenty to talk about because the city has a $6 million surplus. They are divided over how to allocate it. For the first time this year, the city took public comments on the budget by e-mail. Officials received more than 100 messages, copies of which went to the City Council members and heads of city departments. The e-mail, for the most part, came from people never seen at public meetings. Their suggestions included increasing spending for the arts, making the city a "model new media community" with a fiber optic grid and encouraging recreation. "Keep roller hockey alive and well in Santa Monica," one correspondent demanded. For all its celebrated success, Santa Monica's network has also found itself on the frontier of some of the less appealing terrain of cyberspace. Once a prankster got loose in PEN, logged on as the head of a utility department and sent an e-mail message to a councilman threatening to shut off his electricity. That incident prompted the network's project manager, Keith Kurtz, to institute a new rule that is now considered an online must: Users' passwords must be different from their names. In the early days of the online venture, city employees were reluctant to respond to residents by e-mail. By 1992, e-mail had caught on so well that city attorneys felt it necessary to warn City Council members not to engage in substantive discussion among themselves by e-mail for fear of violating the state's public meetings law. But now the city's online forum is suffering from a much-studied phenomenon: the decay of online discussion. It is an issue that has taken on heightened importance among local politicians since the demise of the newspaper. "Everyone in Santa Monica politics got up first thing in the morning and read The Outlook's letters to the editor," said City Councilman Ken Genser, who has beena City Councilmanfor 10 years. "That's missing. Maybe this can help fill some of that gap." Discussion also faded in PEN partly because the city's forums became plagued by personal attacks and ranting. The stock remedy for this problem is to moderate the discussion. But as a government agency, the city faces a quandary: Should officials leave the forums unchecked and run the risk that a few obnoxious people will kill the discussion, or should they moderate to keep the discussion alive and inevitably face accusations of censorship? City officials announced a test solution on Sept. 1. They said the League of Women Voters had agreed to moderate the PEN forums on candidates and issues through the November election. The next step, city officials say, depends on what happens with the moderated forums. Many residents say they hope that interest in the city election will revive participation in the online forum. They say they are convinced that PEN is a vital component of local politics. Its early successes in creating equal access to policy makers on line have not been forgotten, nor has the homeless man who so influenced PEN's early days. Paschal left the city years ago and became a cable talk-show hostwent on to serve as the host of a talk show on cable television in the San Fernando Valley. B, but he kept his PEN account. I in 1995, he logged on and left a message on PEN for his old friends in Santa Monica. "Just call me EX-homeless," it said. Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Tue Sep 8 01:02:55 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 01:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Parents/Grandparents Class on Safe Surfing for Kids... (fwd) Message-ID: This is forwarded to show the breadth of vol. activities in the King County Library System. KCLS does not have an SCN, but the vols. (part of no group) do far more for KCLS than SCN does for SPL. I think this points to good vol. coordination. I believe paid staff do the coordinating for KCLS, and that is probably the difference. But I think this points up the need for SCN finding enough persons to provide enough person hours to do similar vol. coordinating and recruiting. Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:59:47 -0700 From: "J. Brian Thomason" Reply-To: kcls-netmasters at scn.org To: KCLS-Netmasters Mailing List Subject: Parents/Grandparents Class on Safe Surfing for Kids... Hi! I noticed in the News and Events for KCLS that some libraries are having classes such as: - Cybersafe in Cyberspace: A Parent's Primer on the Internet (Muckleshoot & Skykomish) - Web Page Design for Small Business (Redmond) Two of the Netmasters at Fed Way 320th (me being one of them) are very interested in offering classes of these types. Who's giving the class? What's the outline of the class, and do you have any materials you'd be willing to share with us? Perhaps these are not being given by Netmasters? Thanks for any information. Brian Thomason, Netmaster FW 320th Library * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From randy at scn.org Tue Sep 8 05:31:44 1998 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 05:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Parents/Grandparents Class on Safe Surfing for Kids... (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've always thought that KCLS came up with a GREAT idea when it started the Netmasters program. The breadth of the classes that are described makes me think that not only would it be a positive thing for SCN volunteers to do similar stuff, but that we need to broaden the scope of our classes. I believe that the comments that Joan (I don't remember her last name at the moment) from the library made about our e-mail class point up the fact that we need to start teaching about e-mail in the broader sense, and not just as it applies to SCN. But perhaps this has already happened. It would be a great service to the students if we covered the different types of e-mail available and discussed the positives and negatives of each. I believe that SCN e-mail accounts still provide, if not the BEST of both worlds, at least a very good way to be able to utilize both worlds. The fact that you can get to SCN mail via POP makes it possible for people to use the Netscape and Explorer GUI in the library to read their mail. They can also use the Hotmail reader to get their SCN mail. And they also have the possibility of being able to dial in directly if they are not able to access these type of terminals. Juno is probably the most restrictive of the three, since you are restricted to using the Juno software, they don't have versions for the Mac, and the numbers for local calling are limited, if you do not live in the metropolitan area. One other advantage that SCN accounts have over both the others is that you can forward your mail to another account if you need to or so choose. Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of my above observations. -randy On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > This is forwarded to show the breadth of vol. activities in the King > County Library System. KCLS does not have an SCN, but the vols. (part of > no group) do far more for KCLS than SCN does for SPL. I think this points > to good vol. coordination. I believe paid staff do the coordinating for > KCLS, and that is probably the difference. But I think this points up the > need for SCN finding enough persons to provide enough person hours to do > similar vol. coordinating and recruiting. > > Later, > > Rich > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Tue Sep 8 09:05:24 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Please make a help page (Was: Re: Parents/Grandparents Class...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Randy Groves wrote: > ... It would be a great service to the students if we covered > the different types of e-mail available and discussed the > positives and negatives of each. Randy, It would be a service to all the users if you'd put it on a help page. There's no e-mail help section on the Web site's Help menu, and much of the material on the Freeport help menu that you see when you pick 2. on the main Freeport menu is an embarrassment to SCN. There's no link there to to any information about Pine or POP mail, or to the help files on the Web site. The former Freeport help menu could be integrated with the current Help menu (in HTML, not Freeport coding), so that all of the help files are reachable from one Help menu. As a start, you could copy this excellent introduction to SCN e-mail onto a page in /web.root/help, surrounded by the usual header and footer navigation stuff. The e-mail training people then might be able to follow up by publishing their printed materials or class notes as Web pages, or even as plain text files, so that everyone can benefit from them. Rod Clark > ... SCN e-mail accounts still provide, if not the BEST of both > worlds, at least a very good way to be able to utilize both > worlds. The fact that you can get to SCN mail via POP makes it > possible for people to use the Netscape and Explorer GUI in > the library to read their mail. They can also use the Hotmail > reader to get their SCN mail. And they also have the > possibility of being able to dial in directly if they are not > able to access these type of terminals. Juno is probably the > most restrictive of the three, since you are restricted to > using the Juno software, they don't have versions for the Mac, > and the numbers for local calling are limited, if you do not > live in the metropolitan area. > > One other advantage that SCN accounts have over both the > others is that you can forward your mail to another account if > you need to or so choose. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Tue Sep 8 11:59:23 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Please make a help page (Was: Re: Parents/Grandparents Class...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wrote: > ...put it on a help page. Randy and everyone, Getting started with that isn't as easy as with personal pages, because of SCN's site navigation. There's a template file that might help, at /web.root/help/makehelp.html http://www.scn.org/help/makehelp.html You can copy the file and edit it. Replace the 5 numbered items with your title, heading, text, HTML links and e-mail address, following the examples given. For a template that you can use for sub-pages that link back to your main page, see /web.root/help/morehelp.html http://www.scn.org/help/morehelp.html When your page is ready to go, please send a note to help at scn.org and webmaster at scn.org, so that we can coordinate it with the existing help menus. The Web site's Help section is writable by anyone in the "mentors" group ID, which consolidates most of the currently active members of several other group IDs: akin,alboss,alf1701, allen,banerian,bb096, bb156,bb615,be718, bk269,cathrin,chanh, davidb,douglas,er-chan, femme2,ggoodwin,gheil, gtruzzi,jimh,jj, jw4,kv9x,ljbeedle, marcia,michaelh,nancyk, randy,scoth,sharma, starsrus,toms,ttrim, webadm,wyman,xx029,xx030 If you aren't in the "mentors" group ID, and want to make help pages, please let someone know so that your username can be added. Or if you are in the "mentors" group ID and don't want to be included there, please let us know that too. There's also a "mentors" directory that you can use for any ~kind of test files, at /web.root/volunteers/mentors Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Tue Sep 8 16:42:02 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Parents/Grandparents Class on Safe Surfing for Kids... (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Randy, Right on! A very considered discussion. Thanks. ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Randy Groves wrote: > > I've always thought that KCLS came up with a GREAT idea when it started > the Netmasters program. The breadth of the classes that are described > makes me think that not only would it be a positive thing for SCN > volunteers to do similar stuff, but that we need to broaden the scope of > our classes. Yes indeed. Intermediate e-mail; web cruising, etc. We do have limited number of teaching vols right now and that is a very limiting reality that needs to be addresseed. I believe that the comments that Joan (I don't remember her > last name at the moment) from the library made about our e-mail class > point up the fact that we need to start teaching about e-mail in the > broader sense, and not just as it applies to SCN. But perhaps this has > already happened. It would be a great service to the students if we > covered the different types of e-mail available and discussed the > positives and negatives of each. Here name is Joan Johnson. She subsequently thanked SCN vols. for all their dedication and good work, so she is positive towards us. But you're right, we should sit down and discuss expanded service (how possible, etc.) Andrew? Whaddya think? > > I believe that SCN e-mail accounts still provide, if not the BEST of both > worlds, at least a very good way to be able to utilize both worlds. I am emotionally bonded to our unix e-mail, but I can see how it is SERIOUSLY COMPLEX for people just entering computer-dom. That doesn't mean we can dump unix, but it has begun a dialogue about changing. The > fact that you can get to SCN mail via POP makes it possible for people to > use the Netscape and Explorer GUI in the library to read their mail. I don't know how to use pop to use Netscape or Explorer. Could this be taught to us e-mail teachers? They > can also use the Hotmail reader to get their SCN mail. And they also have > the possibility of being able to dial in directly if they are not able to > access these type of terminals. Juno is probably the most restrictive of > the three, since you are restricted to using the Juno software, they don't > have versions for the Mac, and the numbers for local calling are limited, > if you do not live in the metropolitan area. > > One other advantage that SCN accounts have over both the others is that > you can forward your mail to another account if you need to or so choose. As Jim H. said at the last Outreach meeting, the main advantage of SCN is that it is FREE. We do want to keep featuring that in our public communications. > > Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of my above observations. > > -randy > > On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > > > > This is forwarded to show the breadth of vol. activities in the King > > County Library System. KCLS does not have an SCN, but the vols. (part of > > no group) do far more for KCLS than SCN does for SPL. I think this points > > to good vol. coordination. I believe paid staff do the coordinating for > > KCLS, and that is probably the difference. But I think this points up the > > need for SCN finding enough persons to provide enough person hours to do > > similar vol. coordinating and recruiting. > > > > Later, > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Tue Sep 8 19:49:08 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Please make a help page (Was: Re: Parents/Grandparents Class...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rod has a great idea. I would be pleased to contribute to this. We use a step-by-step outline in our pine classes and I would gladly submit this to whomever/wherever could route it onto the SCN web page. I would also be willing to edit and re-write existing help menus if submitted to me. I would then submit them back to the original submitter (-: So, let me know. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Tue Sep 8 20:19:14 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Parents/Grandparents Class on Safe Surfing for Kids... (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My apologies, all. I sent the below without noting in the top section that annotations appeared below. (snip) > > Randy, > > Right on! A very considered discussion. Thanks. > --------------------> > On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Randy Groves wrote: > > > > > I've always thought that KCLS came up with a GREAT idea when it started > > the Netmasters program. The breadth of the classes that are described > > makes me think that not only would it be a positive thing for SCN > > volunteers to do similar stuff, but that we need to broaden the scope of > > our classes. > Yes indeed. Intermediate e-mail; web cruising, etc. We do have limited number of teaching vols right now and that is a very limiting reality that needs to be addresseed. > > I believe that the comments that Joan (I don't remember her > > last name at the moment) from the library made about our e-mail class > > point up the fact that we need to start teaching about e-mail in the > > broader sense, and not just as it applies to SCN. But perhaps this has > > already happened. It would be a great service to the students if we > > covered the different types of e-mail available and discussed the > > positives and negatives of each. > Her name is Joan Johnson. She subsequently thanked SCN vols. for all their dedication and good work, so she is positive towards us. But you're right, we should sit down and discuss expanded service (how possible, etc.) Andrew? Whaddya think? > > > > I believe that SCN e-mail accounts still provide, if not the BEST of both > > worlds, at least a very good way to be able to utilize both worlds. > I am emotionally bonded to our unix e-mail, but I can see how it is SERIOUSLY COMPLEX for people just entering computer-dom. That doesn't mean we can dump unix, but it has begun a dialogue about changing. > > The > > fact that you can get to SCN mail via POP makes it possible for people to > > use the Netscape and Explorer GUI in the library to read their mail. > I don't know how to use pop to use Netscape or Explorer. Could this be taught to us e-mail teachers? > > They > > can also use the Hotmail reader to get their SCN mail. And they also have > > the possibility of being able to dial in directly if they are not able to > > access these type of terminals. Juno is probably the most restrictive of > > the three, since you are restricted to using the Juno software, they don't > > have versions for the Mac, and the numbers for local calling are limited, > > if you do not live in the metropolitan area. > > > > One other advantage that SCN accounts have over both the others is that > > you can forward your mail to another account if you need to or so choose. > As Jim H. said at the last Outreach meeting, the main advantage of SCN is that it is FREE. We do want to keep featuring that in our public communications. > > > Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of my above observations. > > > > -randy * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb140 at scn.org Tue Sep 8 20:41:29 1998 From: bb140 at scn.org (Barb Avonia Weismann) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Parents/Grandparents Class on Safe Surfing for Kids... (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re: class topics I will come up with a curriculum for a class on "Citizen Lobbrying Using the Web and E mail" if someone will help me with what I don't know. This can include: Setting up a personal mail list/e mail Listservs and how to set one up (I am assuming we can "own" listservs on scn) Listservs and Web pages as an easily accessible source of files for on-demand information dispersal Good Uses for Web Pages Linking to government officials E Mail Chain Letters Important e mail addresses This will take me some time, to collect good examples, set up mock lists, etc. But do you think anyone would take the class? Barb On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > My apologies, all. I sent the below without noting in the top section > that annotations appeared below. > > (snip) > > > > > Randy, > > > > Right on! A very considered discussion. Thanks. > > > --------------------> > > > On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Randy Groves wrote: > > > > > > > > I've always thought that KCLS came up with a GREAT idea when it started > > > the Netmasters program. The breadth of the classes that are described > > > makes me think that not only would it be a positive thing for SCN > > > volunteers to do similar stuff, but that we need to broaden the scope of > > > our classes. > > > Yes indeed. Intermediate e-mail; web cruising, etc. We do have limited > number of teaching vols right now and that is a very limiting reality that > needs to be addresseed. > > > > I believe that the comments that Joan (I don't remember her > > > last name at the moment) from the library made about our e-mail class > > > point up the fact that we need to start teaching about e-mail in the > > > broader sense, and not just as it applies to SCN. But perhaps this has > > > already happened. It would be a great service to the students if we > > > covered the different types of e-mail available and discussed the > > > positives and negatives of each. > > > Her name is Joan Johnson. She subsequently thanked SCN vols. for all > their dedication and good work, so she is positive towards us. But you're > right, we should sit down and discuss expanded service (how possible, > etc.) Andrew? Whaddya think? > > > > > > I believe that SCN e-mail accounts still provide, if not the BEST of both > > > worlds, at least a very good way to be able to utilize both worlds. > > > I am emotionally bonded to our unix e-mail, but I can see how it is > SERIOUSLY COMPLEX for people just entering computer-dom. That doesn't > mean we can dump unix, but it has begun a dialogue about changing. > > > > The > > > fact that you can get to SCN mail via POP makes it possible for people to > > > use the Netscape and Explorer GUI in the library to read their mail. > > > I don't know how to use pop to use Netscape or Explorer. Could this be > taught to us e-mail teachers? > > > > They > > > can also use the Hotmail reader to get their SCN mail. And they also have > > > the possibility of being able to dial in directly if they are not able to > > > access these type of terminals. Juno is probably the most restrictive of > > > the three, since you are restricted to using the Juno software, they don't > > > have versions for the Mac, and the numbers for local calling are limited, > > > if you do not live in the metropolitan area. > > > > > > One other advantage that SCN accounts have over both the others is that > > > you can forward your mail to another account if you need to or so choose. > > > As Jim H. said at the last Outreach meeting, the main advantage of SCN is > that it is FREE. We do want to keep featuring that in our public > communications. > > > > Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of my above observations. > > > > > > -randy > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe services > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Tue Sep 8 22:46:58 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Please make a help page (Was: Re: Parents/Grandparents Class...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > ... I would be pleased to contribute to this. > > We use a step-by-step outline in our pine classes and I would gladly > submit this to whomever/wherever could route it onto the SCN web page. > > I would also be willing to edit and re-write existing help menus ... Rich, Your e-mail class files would be a welcome addition to the help files. If you could also suggest what files from the Freeport help menus should be kept, revised and integrated into the current help information, that might help quite a few confused people too. Your be718 user ID has write access to the Web site's help directory. You can also write whatever files you like in the /web.root/volunteers/mentors directory. Just upload the plain text help files to either of those directories, and create subdirectories in them as needed (maybe help/email), and from there we'll find some HTML people to make Web pages out of them. Rod * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Tue Sep 8 23:37:15 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Please make a help page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rod, This is the PINE E-Mail outline you asked about. We are using it at the branch libraries. It is an ascii file. If you or anyone has any comments, make them. We'll just continue to build on this. Rod, I assume that you will be placing this in the proper spot in the web page. Any time you consider any input worth putting in to this outline, do so without checking with me. Thus, anyone can go through you to add to this outline. I'd be pleased to discuss thoughts on this with anyone. One example of such topics would be the desirability of an advanced level class, or (better) an upload/download class [people LOVE that capability]. Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Rod Clark wrote: > > ... I would be pleased to contribute to this. > > > > We use a step-by-step outline in our pine classes and I would gladly > > submit this to whomever/wherever could route it onto the SCN web page. > > > > I would also be willing to edit and re-write existing help menus ... > > Rich, > > Your e-mail class files would be a welcome addition to the > help files. > > If you could also suggest what files from the Freeport help > menus should be kept, revised and integrated into the current > help information, that might help quite a few confused people > too. > > Your be718 user ID has write access to the Web site's help > directory. You can also write whatever files you like in the > /web.root/volunteers/mentors directory. Just upload the plain > text help files to either of those directories, and create > subdirectories in them as needed (maybe help/email), and from > there we'll find some HTML people to make Web pages out of them. > > Rod > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe services > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Tue Sep 8 23:47:02 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oooops! Forgot the attachment ## Re: Please make a help page (fwd) Message-ID: The attachment is now attached. Is it readable??? ______________________________________________________________________ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:37:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Littleton To: Rod Clark Cc: Randy Groves , scn at scn.org, services at scn.org, em-trng at scn.org Subject: Re: Please make a help page Rod, This is the PINE E-Mail outline you asked about. We are using it at the branch libraries. It is an ascii file. If you or anyone has any comments, make them. We'll just continue to build on this. Rod, I assume that you will be placing this in the proper spot in the web page. Any time you consider any input worth putting in to this outline, do so without checking with me. Thus, anyone can go through you to add to this outline. I'd be pleased to discuss thoughts on this with anyone. One example of such topics would be the desirability of an advanced level class, or (better) an upload/download class [people LOVE that capability]. Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Rod Clark wrote: > > ... I would be pleased to contribute to this. > > > > We use a step-by-step outline in our pine classes and I would gladly > > submit this to whomever/wherever could route it onto the SCN web page. > > > > I would also be willing to edit and re-write existing help menus ... > > Rich, > > Your e-mail class files would be a welcome addition to the > help files. > > If you could also suggest what files from the Freeport help > menus should be kept, revised and integrated into the current > help information, that might help quite a few confused people > too. > > Your be718 user ID has write access to the Web site's help > directory. You can also write whatever files you like in the > /web.root/volunteers/mentors directory. Just upload the plain > text help files to either of those directories, and create > subdirectories in them as needed (maybe help/email), and from > there we'll find some HTML people to make Web pages out of them. > > Rod > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe services > END > -------------- next part -------------- Course Outline Learning SCN Pine E-mail Notes I. Introduce Staff & Students. II. Summarize SCN structure [5 minutes] A. Forums and Newsgroups. B. Web site. C. E-mail. (later) D. I.P. III. Ask for specific e-mail questions/problems. [10 minutes] IV. E-Mail Theory (not yet "doing" e-mail). [60 minutes] A. SCN time limit of 45 minutes. 1. Help menus. (^g or h or ^h). On your own, EXPLORE HELP MENUS. 2. E-Mail addresses a. bcd202 at scn.org (1) bcd202 = user I.D. (2) @ = e-mail sign, leads domain name. (3) scn = domain name (4) .org = generic or geographic indicator (eg.s from class) (5) e-mail � WEB address (which have http, or www, or / which do not appear in e-mail addresses) Only e-mail addresses have @ b. Use the exact address you find/have for sending. V. E-mail: Getting to it. (go to mail room) A. Basic E-Mail Pine vs. Freeport B. Login. This is how you start up SCN on the library computers that use Windows and color screens. (If you want to use the library's amber screens, see section B2.) 1. Windows a. Click on Telnet icon. b. At box, type in scn.org, then enter. c. Login prompt, first put in user ID (e.g. trng01) d. At password, type "SPLclass" e. Use message at BOTTOM of screen to go forward. f. Now, skip down to C. Skip this if already in. 2. Login Method 2: Use this on VT 100 (amber screened) terminals. a. Get to first screen where Quest is a choice and select it. b. Put in library card number. c. last 4 digits of your telephone number or other code you've chosen. d. At "Services Index" Screen, use down arrow key to get to "Other libraries and resources" e. Hit arrow right key to get to list on the right. f. Hit down arrow key to get to "Seattle Community Network (SCN) and hit enter. g. Login prompt, first put in user ID (e.g. trng01) h. At password, type "SPLclass" i. Use message at BOTTOM OF SCREEN (space or enter) C. Sending E-Mail (Use Help Menus) 1. Getting into the Pine e-mail program. a. At the command prompt ["your choice"] type "go pine." b. Then enter "1" (start pine to read and send mail) (In subsequent sessions, also look at your choices in this menu.) 2. Send a message. a. Type "m" for main screen. b. "c" for "compose", then follow the prompts. (Generally: send to recipient. In class: send to yourself.) c. Subject: Put something to describe message. d. Skip attachment for now. e. cc: = Courtesy copy. Use if you want a second (or third) person to receive your message. f. [Hit ^r to get more options.] g. [bcc: = Blind courtesy copy.] h. Arrow (or enter) down to writing area just below line. i. Type your message. j. Bottom of screen has hints, but they change in different screens, so look at them carefully. k. ^v to jump down. ^y to jump up. l. End and Send (1) ^x to end writing the letter, (2) choose "y" to send it, and then (3) hit enter. 3. Steps to read new mail: a. Quit to leave the "e-mail room" (but not SCN) You'll see a "new mail" message. b. Go right back into "e-mail room" Enter 1 c. Type "m" for main menu. d. "i" = "index" (list of messages received; e. Arrow to message you want to read (N = new message) f. Enter g. See command choices at bottom of screen. h. "o" = "other" commands (Hit 3 times to see all commands. 4th time starts all over again.) i. "n" = "next message to be read j. "d" = "delete and go to next message" k. "p" = "previous message l. (space bar) = next screen down m. "-" = next screen up n. type "?" for help. Good info. 4. Send (to yourself, for practice): c 5. Reply (to yourself, for practice): r 6. Forward (to yourself, for practice) f ������������������������������ D. Intermediate E-mail. 1. When you open mail, note that you can save a mail message to your work directory, so you can edit and/or forward the message. Type "e" for "export" and follow instructions. 2. Go out of e-mail to SCN main menu. 3. "Go file" to get to the Freeport editor (VERY useful!) a. Examine work directory with menu choice 11. [10 minutes] (1) edit (e) This one opens the file. (2) delete (d) (3) undelete (u) (4) rename (r) (5) quit (q) b. h 4. Edit your work directory file with Freeport file manager. a. Highlight (a method of selecting text) (1) [Ctrl + Shft + 6], then b. Use ^k & ^u to cut and paste highlighted text. c. ^j in separate paragraph for Justify. 5. Other functions a. When creating an e-mail message to send, you MAY attach another file which you have already saved into your work directory. [not to get into downloading and uploading ... yet.] (1) At ATTACH, hit ^j. At question "File to attach," hit ^t to get files from work directory. Arrow to chosen file and hit enter. If you wish, type a comment re: the attachment. Then enter; then send. b. Rare use of mouse: highlight with mouse, then alt+e, then "c" for copy. Then paste at new location (at "to" in new letter) by using alt+e, then "p" for paste. c. Spell (crummy in Pine) d. Address book (1) Start from main menu (m) and follow the instructions. Very useful, so try it. VI. Miscellaneous items [10 minutes] A. PINE 1. Interrupted or otherwise incomplete e-mail messages stored in work directory. When you need to stop a message before fully written, type "o" to postpone, and then "^q" to exit e- mail. When you re-enter Pine, hit "m" for "main menu." Then L for "folder list." Then arrow -> to "postponed-msgs." Enter to open. Arrow down to place at which you postponed your message and continue writing it. Or, f to forward (or r to reply). B. SCN (not Pine) functions. 1. Find this allows you to discover an SCN members e-mail address. 2. Who 3. Downloading & uploading. These are very useful, but you have to have a browser to do some of the steps. Can be done on the color screened computers at the library, but not on amber-screened terminals. 4. Utilities (In SCN, type go softutil.) VII. Post-class question and answer session. [15 minutes]  From lss at scn.org Wed Sep 9 16:01:48 1998 From: lss at scn.org (Lutheran Social Services) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Parents/Grandparents Class on Safe Surfing for Kids... (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Barb Avonia Weismann wrote: > Re: class topics > > I will come up with a curriculum for a class on "Citizen Lobbrying Using > the Web and E mail" if someone will help me with what I don't know. This > can include: > etc. But do you think anyone would take the class? > Barb Barb, Lutheran Social Services is quite committed to advocacy and grassroots organizing - I can think of several of our staff and volunteers involved with advocacy who would be interested in this. The Childrens Alliance and other advocacy groups in the area would also probably be interested. Erik Stevens Asst. to the Director Lutheran Social Services, NW Area Office lss at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From billhs at speakeasy.org Wed Sep 9 19:58:51 1998 From: billhs at speakeasy.org (Bill S) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Parents/Grandparents Class on Safe Surfing for Kids... (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > I am emotionally bonded to our unix e-mail, but I can see how it is > SERIOUSLY COMPLEX for people just entering computer-dom. That doesn't > mean we can dump unix, but it has begun a dialogue about changing. > Rich; Let's be sure that we're not confusing the applications (freeport mail, Pine, Pico etc) with the operating system (Unix). There is a version of Pine for PCs and there are graphic e-mail programs that run on the UNIX operating system including Eudora and Netscape communicator. We use menu / command line operations when using Unix on SCN. That's not the only possible way to do it. I can't remember whether X-Windows for Unix predates the MAC but it's been around a lot longer than MS-whatever. If you've seen one of out SUN workstations in operation at a computor fair the screen you saw was X-Windows not MS-WIN95. The questions raised here are really more related to the discussion in the scn.hardware forum about whether or not we should go to SLIP/PPP and the general philosophical questions about how much the user should know and understand about the system he/she is using. Also look at the current 'Computer User' newspaper for the article about the LINUX operating system. It's a UNIX version/variation that is a true multitasking/ multiuser system. It's got an expanding user base and is the o/s of choice for numerous uses. I know a lot of new users have a problem with anything that doesn't come from Redmond but MS-WINxx isn't an industry standard like say 120v, 60hz electricity. Bill Scott bk846 billhs at speakeasy.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Wed Sep 9 21:36:23 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Parents/Grandparents Class on Safe Surfing for Kids... (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bill's message distinguishing between Unix and Freeport and SCN versions and illustrates the crossroads we are at. 1. Starting point: SCN's version of e-mail is difficult. 2. Can SCN use a different version of Unix (a graphical one?) without serious upgrade in our system? That is; will technology allow us to adjust to an eaiser e-mail program without huge cost, or are we faced with a fundamental re-structuring of our system which we cannot affort? 3. What is the mission of SCN? Free e-mail? Or what? I think we are not sure, and the makes it difficult for us to commit resources ($ and effort) in a given direction. Thanks, Bill ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Wed Sep 9 22:16:23 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bill Scott's Thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [This discussion assumes the high priority of the SCN e-mail service.] Bill Scott said (in part) > The questions raised here are really more related to .... how much the > user should know and understand about the system he/she is using. Perhaps, but in that case, I think the answer should be, "make it user friendly" rather than "engineer friendly." Again, I am attached to Unix, but I have trouble justifying it to users, except for the fact that SCN is free from one's home computer. (From the library, many servcies are free and SCN is more of a pain in the pants than a communication window to the world). Bill Scott: > Also look at the current 'Computer User' newspaper for the article about the > LINUX operating system. It's a UNIX version/variation that is a true > multitasking/ multiuser system. It's got an expanding user base and is the > o/s of choice for numerous uses. What about this? I discussed the idea of SCN building its own system with Rod. He pointed out that this was not practicaL. Can SCN switch to something like LINUX as we switched from Freeport E-mail to Pine E-mail? Would this solve the unser-unfriendly problem? Would this solve the lack-of-graphics problem? Later, Rich * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From femme2 at scn.org Thu Sep 10 10:56:39 1998 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software Donations Message-ID: SCNA will be donating a couple of computers at the Community Computer Fair on Saturday (the 12th). We will be giving these to kids -- middle-school to high-school age. The problem is that I just found out that they have nothing on them except DOS. Not exactly a gee-whiz experience for a kid. Does anyone know where we might get donated (or very cheap) software for these computers? It has to be legal -- this event is sponsored by the City of Seattle's Technology Committee and others. And of course SCNA is squeaky clean. Any ideas? Jim Horton, Sharma and I are working on this part of the fair. Jim just got back from a week and a half at Burning Man, so he's kind of busy. Any help would be very much appreciated. Lorraine femme2 at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bk846 at scn.org Thu Sep 10 14:54:03 1998 From: bk846 at scn.org (Bill S) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WHAT difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: <35F80E56.116CD0F5@scn.org> Message-ID: Thanks Al; Finally somebody has found the right words to get to the point of this situation. There is no easy system !! Whatever kind or brand of interface someone uses the internet and e-mail systems are complex and in order to use them and get the most out of them it is necessary to understand as much as you can about how they work. On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Al Boss wrote: > It seems I can't turn on my computer without reading about how difficult > our SCN e-mail is to use. < > Please, no holy wars about the superiority of Eudora to Outlook, etc. > Pegasus to Netscape mail, text-based to GUI-based systems, etc.; that's > not my point. This is my point: no one was born with an innate > knowledge of ANY e-mail system. There are all sorts of complicated things these days that you have to learn to use in order to get the best results. Whether it's a VCR, microwave, cel-phone etc. or an e-mail program eventually you have to RTFM and practice until you are able to use it well. > E-mail programs are complex. All of them. They have lots of menus, > lots of commands, lots of folder options, lots of ways to screw up. You > can get by knowing only three commands--read, reply, and send--or you > can learn to sort folders, use inbox rules, signature lines, whatever > you want. > I think we want to get people beyond the point of just getting by. That's a start but only a start. We shouldn't get people just barely started and then leave them to fumble along in the dark. > The issue here is what people are used to. and sometimes we have to get used to new things or alternative ways to do the same things. That's what training is about. (Keyboards havn't made pencils obsolete yet as far as I can tell.) If someone has a brilliant idea about how to sort out the new users by experience level and ability to absorb the concepts of e-mail ( or anything computer related for that matter) I'm sure we'd all be glad but that doesn't seem likely. > SCN is nothing if not a strange mix of extremes. Our volunteers are > more computer-savvy than the general public, and I imgaine our average > users are even less computer-savvy than the population norm. > > So, yes, I agree, our e-mail can be hard to use. But I think that any > e-mail can be hard to use if you're not used to it, or not used to > e-mail in general. In the interest of empowerment, I think that's where > we should focus our energy--accept the role of preparing our users for a > lifetime of e-mail experiences, of which we are a part. > There has been some mention here of classes geared to a more general approach toward e-mail and the internet. That seems like the right direction; less emphasis on the particular bells and whistles and more on what is to be accomplished. A bit more difficult to set up levels of classes instead of our " one size fits all " concept but perhaps in the long run more productive. Al has this pointed in the right direction. There are technical decisions to be made as far as PPP (or SLIP or SLURP) and there are questions or direction and emphasis. They effect each other but do have to be looked at seperately to. Bill S bk846 at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From lss at scn.org Thu Sep 10 22:49:56 1998 From: lss at scn.org (Lutheran Social Services) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software Donations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lorraine, Are these new or used computers? Will they run Windows? If you know of anybody who works at Microsoft give them a call and see if they'd be willing to purchase software at the employee store and donate to SCNA. (MS software is obscenely cheap for employees - Win98 is $20, Office97 is $40). If you really want to make the donation stretch, ask them to fill in a matching gift form - Microsoft will either match with like software or with money (the amount the employee paid). I don't know if older versions of Windows or other software are still being sold - doubt it, but you might find somebody who could donate a legit copy of something useful. Would it be inappropriate to post a short request on SCN's homepage - right at the top on the first page, so it would get maximum visibility - you are working against the clock here, so the notice would only be up for a day. Or how about putting the notice as one of the login messages? Good luck - wish I could be of more help. Erik Stevens Lutheran Social Services lss at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From starsrus at scn.org Fri Sep 11 08:29:12 1998 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WHAT difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Bill S wrote: But that makes it HARD! And requires some effort on the part of the user to actually LEARN something! That is probably subversive and goes counter to the American Way and the Microsoft Point-and-Click Ethic! Programs/Operating Systems/Computers are just NO GOOD unless we can pick up the Holy Mouse, speak into it clearly, and say "Computer, read my email, give me a 25 word digest, and answer it for me!", :>) Ken Applegate > Thanks Al; > > Finally somebody has found the right words to get to the point of this > situation. There is no easy system !! Whatever kind or brand of interface > someone uses the internet and e-mail systems are complex and in order to > use them and get the most out of them it is necessary to understand as > much as you can about how they work. > > On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Al Boss wrote: > > > It seems I can't turn on my computer without reading about how difficult > > our SCN e-mail is to use. [snip} eventually you have to RTFM > and practice until you are able to use it well. [snip] > > > Bill S > bk846 at scn.org > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From help at scn.org Fri Sep 11 17:59:30 1998 From: help at scn.org (SCN help) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 17:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Survey Results (fwd) Message-ID: From the SCN Help Desk: Andrew ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:17:02 -0700 (PDT) From: System Daemon To: help at scn.org Subject: Survey Results 1. Where do we send any response (e-mail address or phone number)? Answer: Iain Dinneford - bm520 at scn.org 2. What is the question (as detailed as possible, please!) or comment? Answer: Dear all of you good folks at SCN, I just wanted to finally get around to saying thanks for your service. I truly appreciate my account and your hard work, even if I don't currently have time to show this through volunteering (as I'm a starving student, etc.). Anyways, thanks again. -Iain Dinneford * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Fri Sep 11 22:18:02 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WHAT difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Listen all you techie rascals. Mock all you want, but even the library is goin to go graphic and they are looking askance at us. I share much of your sentiment about good old unix (I even have a warm spot for DOS), but you are playing an expensive and luxurious game -- fiddling and joking while people drop away (or never approach). I also lobbied (unsuccessfully) to keep the Freeport mailer because I think SCN should keep older technology. But, that is a two-sided situation. If we keep older and less user-friendly software, we are obligated to teach people how to use it. And SCN does not keep up with the demand. (E.g., I had a woman in a class who used Freeport heavily, but had never been told she could mass-delete with the upper case D.) The point is, we are not keeping up with the NEED the users have. This is not just a question of preferences whimpy users. It is a question of what SCNA's task is. Just plopping a difficult software out there is not being responsible. So, I expect everyone who thinks Unix is adequate for the public at large to sign up to TEACH the public how to use it. (No excuses) Then we can keep Unix until the 22nd Century. Unfortunately, Bill Scott shoots the hell out of my plan. He puts a LOT of time in teaching, but still defends this monster system. Go figure. Later you all, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Kenneth Applegate wrote: > On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Bill S wrote: > > But that makes it HARD! And requires some effort on the part of the user > to actually LEARN something! That is probably subversive and goes counter > to the American Way and the Microsoft Point-and-Click Ethic! > > Programs/Operating Systems/Computers are just NO GOOD unless we can pick > up the Holy Mouse, speak into it clearly, and say "Computer, read my > email, give me a 25 word digest, and answer it for me!", :>) > > Ken Applegate > > > Thanks Al; > > > > Finally somebody has found the right words to get to the point of this > > situation. There is no easy system !! Whatever kind or brand of interface > > someone uses the internet and e-mail systems are complex and in order to > > use them and get the most out of them it is necessary to understand as > > much as you can about how they work. > > > > On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Al Boss wrote: > > > > > It seems I can't turn on my computer without reading about how difficult > > > our SCN e-mail is to use. > > [snip} > > eventually you have to RTFM > > and practice until you are able to use it well. > > [snip] > > > > > > Bill S > > bk846 at scn.org > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > END > > > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? > By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jj at scn.org Sat Sep 12 03:27:47 1998 From: jj at scn.org (John Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 03:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WHAT difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And then we have the _ignorant_ "rascals" that keep getting Unix confused with e-mail. The e-mail classes teach _e-mail_ (unless some instructors are doing major deviation from the syllabus), and there simply is no Unix involved. None. === JJ ================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb140 at scn.org Sat Sep 12 07:16:40 1998 From: bb140 at scn.org (Barb Avonia Weismann) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WHAT difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: JJ, How about documenting what you see as important information onto scn's web page. In three or four paragraphs so new people don't get bogged down but read it. Barb On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, John Johnson wrote: > > And then we have the _ignorant_ "rascals" that keep getting Unix confused > with e-mail. The e-mail classes teach _e-mail_ (unless some instructors > are doing major deviation from the syllabus), and there simply is no Unix > involved. None. > > === JJ ================================================================= > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe services > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From douglas Sat Sep 12 09:58:21 1998 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-Mail for all Message-ID: <199809121658.JAA23386@scn.org> I may be jumping in here where angels would rightly fear to tread.. However, As for the great e-mail discussion / debate. Wouldn't it be possible to provide BOTH FreePort and a graphic mailer? A few years ago we accomodated the FreePort menu structure so it would be accessible from the web. Wouldn't it be relatively easy (for all you software jocks out there :-) ) to build a web front end to our sendmail? -- Doug * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Sat Sep 12 12:40:24 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-Mail for all In-Reply-To: <199809121658.JAA23386@scn.org> Message-ID: > Wouldn't it be possible to provide BOTH FreePort and a graphic mailer? > > A few years ago we accomodated the FreePort menu structure so it would > be accessible from the web. Wouldn't it be relatively easy (for all > you software jocks out there :-) ) to build a web front end to our > sendmail? Doug, We have two of them for sendmail (form.cgi, sendform.cgi), but none at present to retrieve POP mail. There are several Web-based services that provide POP3 mail readers, though. See http://www.scn.org/guide/email.html That could (at least in my view) be mentioned in the e-mail classes, along with how to use conventional scn.org POP mail through an ISP connection. Because the Freeport main menu's Help item (#2) still leads only to help files about Freeport mail and never mentions Pine, POP or the Web-based services, we're trying to gather some current documentation into a new e-mail help menu which will cover everything, and replace that old menu with up-to-date Web pages. The Freeport link would then start up Lynx to view the new combined documentation. So far, an e-mail training volunteer has contributed some good material. The help desk ande-mail training people could probably get together and come up with a very good menu of current stuff, with a little work. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Sat Sep 12 17:05:43 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 17:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WHAT difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can't figure the meaning of this. Would someone translate it into normal? Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, John Johnson wrote: > > And then we have the _ignorant_ "rascals" that keep getting Unix confused > with e-mail. The e-mail classes teach _e-mail_ (unless some instructors > are doing major deviation from the syllabus), and there simply is no Unix > involved. None. > > === JJ ================================================================= > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe services > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From kv9x at scn.org Sat Sep 12 17:11:38 1998 From: kv9x at scn.org (Brian K. High) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 17:11:38 -0700 Subject: WHAT difficult e-mail? Message-ID: <004e01bddeab$156a3de0$0b8795cf@metals.arilabs.com> Sounds to me like jj is trying to impress upon people the point that others have tried to make clear in recent weeks as well ... I guess you could say it more simply like this: pico is a text editor pine is an email program that uses pico as a message editor unix is an operating system that pine and pico can be run on pico and pine also can be run on Windows 3.1/95/98/NT other programs can edit text and manage email other operating systems support email and text editors Therefore, we can mix and match our text editors, email managing programs, and operating systems to get the best combination of what we want. If we want to use the web to read our mail, we can do that with our current OS (Unix). People would not need to even be aware that Unix is our OS. If the user wants to use pine, they do not need to know we use unix, nor learn how to use unix. However, unless they use the Windows version, they will not be able to use a mouse and will have to either dial into SCN or telnet into SCN to do that. So it seems to me that we are sometimes confusing a text interface with unix ... pine with unix ... FreePort with unix ... pico with pine ... etc. "A Rose by any other name ..." :-) --Brian -----Original Message----- From: Rich Littleton To: John Johnson Cc: em-trng at scn.org ; services at scn.org ; scn at scn.org Date: Saturday, September 12, 1998 5:02 PM Subject: Re: WHAT difficult e-mail? > >I can't figure the meaning of this. Would someone translate it into >normal? > >Rich > >______________________________________________________________________ > >***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > >On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, John Johnson wrote: > >> >> And then we have the _ignorant_ "rascals" that keep getting Unix confused >> with e-mail. The e-mail classes teach _e-mail_ (unless some instructors >> are doing major deviation from the syllabus), and there simply is no Unix >> involved. None. >> >> === JJ ================================================================= >> >> >> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * >> . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: >> majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: >> unsubscribe services >> END >> > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * >. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: >majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: >unsubscribe services >END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bk846 at scn.org Sat Sep 12 17:23:33 1998 From: bk846 at scn.org (Bill S) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 17:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WHAT difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rich; Let me give it a quick try: UNIX is an operating system that tells the computor how to perform basic functions like recognizing the keyboard and the screen as well as running programs such as the various kinds of e-mail, web browsers, word processers etc. DOS is also an operating system(of sorts) as is MS- Windows. E-mail programs such as Pine, Eudora, Outlook and Freeport are programs that run on an operating system to perform a function, in this case e-mail. You can run graphic e-mail programs on UNIX as well as on MS-Windows. What we are trying to talk about is use of a graphic capable connection to SCN. That is an Internet protocol called PPP (or alternatively SLIP). If this doesn't quite make it clear maybe somebody else can give it a try. Bill On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > I can't figure the meaning of this. Would someone translate it into > normal? > > Rich > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, John Johnson wrote: > > > > > And then we have the _ignorant_ "rascals" that keep getting Unix confused > > with e-mail. The e-mail classes teach _e-mail_ (unless some instructors > > are doing major deviation from the syllabus), and there simply is no Unix > > involved. None. > > > > === JJ ================================================================= > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe services > > END > > > > Bill S bk846 at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Sat Sep 12 17:31:53 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 17:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-Mail for all In-Reply-To: <199809121658.JAA23386@scn.org> Message-ID: Good thought, Doug. I think Rod discussed that back a bit and said it would be difficult, but maybe he was not thinking of the setup Doug referred to. Let's start thinking of focussing on questions, like this one, to be answered and the answer put into a relevant place on the web site. ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Doug Schuler wrote: > I may be jumping in here where angels would rightly fear to tread.. > > However, > > As for the great e-mail discussion / debate. > > Wouldn't it be possible to provide BOTH FreePort and a graphic mailer? > > A few years ago we accomodated the FreePort menu structure so it would > be accessible from the web. Wouldn't it be relatively easy (for all > you software jocks out there :-) ) to build a web front end to our > sendmail? > > -- Doug > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bk846 at scn.org Sat Sep 12 17:23:33 1998 From: bk846 at scn.org (Bill S) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 17:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WHAT difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rich; Let me give it a quick try: UNIX is an operating system that tells the computor how to perform basic functions like recognizing the keyboard and the screen as well as running programs such as the various kinds of e-mail, web browsers, word processers etc. DOS is also an operating system(of sorts) as is MS- Windows. E-mail programs such as Pine, Eudora, Outlook and Freeport are programs that run on an operating system to perform a function, in this case e-mail. You can run graphic e-mail programs on UNIX as well as on MS-Windows. What we are trying to talk about is use of a graphic capable connection to SCN. That is an Internet protocol called PPP (or alternatively SLIP). If this doesn't quite make it clear maybe somebody else can give it a try. Bill On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > I can't figure the meaning of this. Would someone translate it into > normal? > > Rich > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, John Johnson wrote: > > > > > And then we have the _ignorant_ "rascals" that keep getting Unix confused > > with e-mail. The e-mail classes teach _e-mail_ (unless some instructors > > are doing major deviation from the syllabus), and there simply is no Unix > > involved. None. > > > > === JJ ================================================================= > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe services > > END > > > > Bill S bk846 at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Sat Sep 12 18:58:05 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WHAT difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: <004e01bddeab$156a3de0$0b8795cf@metals.arilabs.com> Message-ID: Okay, Okay. Whew! That's a load. But it's good info and relates to our discussion about our e-mail options. However, JJ's criptic comment was a response to the difficulty of our e-mail. Whatever the mix of softwares we employ to get the e-mail done, the point is, it is difficult you use. We should either switch to a simpler result, or multiply our teaching effort by 10. Thanks for the clarification, Brian. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Brian K. High wrote: > Sounds to me like jj is trying to impress upon people the point that others > have tried to make clear in recent weeks as well ... > > I guess you could say it more simply like this: > > pico is a text editor > pine is an email program that uses pico as a message editor > unix is an operating system that pine and pico can be run on > > pico and pine also can be run on Windows 3.1/95/98/NT > > other programs can edit text and manage email > other operating systems support email and text editors > > Therefore, we can mix and match our text editors, email managing programs, > and operating systems to get the best combination of what we want. > > If we want to use the web to read our mail, we can do that with our current > OS (Unix). People would not need to even be aware that Unix is our OS. > > If the user wants to use pine, they do not need to know we use unix, nor > learn how to use unix. However, unless they use the Windows version, they > will not be able to use a mouse and will have to either dial into SCN or > telnet into SCN to do that. > > So it seems to me that we are sometimes confusing a text interface with unix > ... pine with unix ... FreePort with unix ... pico with pine ... etc. > > "A Rose by any other name ..." :-) > > --Brian > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rich Littleton > To: John Johnson > Cc: em-trng at scn.org ; services at scn.org ; > scn at scn.org > Date: Saturday, September 12, 1998 5:02 PM > Subject: Re: WHAT difficult e-mail? > > > > > >I can't figure the meaning of this. Would someone translate it into > >normal? > > > >Rich > > > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > >***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > > >On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, John Johnson wrote: > > > >> > >> And then we have the _ignorant_ "rascals" that keep getting Unix confused > >> with e-mail. The e-mail classes teach _e-mail_ (unless some instructors > >> are doing major deviation from the syllabus), and there simply is no Unix > >> involved. None. > >> > >> === JJ ================================================================= > >> > >> > >> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > >> . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > >> majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > >> unsubscribe services > >> END > >> > > > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > >. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > >majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > >unsubscribe services > >END > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Sat Sep 12 18:59:37 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WHAT difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Bill. See my response to Brian's clarification. Well done. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From starsrus at scn.org Sun Sep 13 14:00:10 1998 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 14:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WHAT difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > > So, I expect everyone who thinks Unix is adequate for the public at large > to sign up to TEACH the public how to use it. (No excuses) Then we can > keep Unix until the 22nd Century. Rich - I don't have time right now for a long reply, (got to log of & join the real world), but I just have to post something because you are driving me nuts in these discussions - Fer gawds sake take time to find out what the terms you are slinging around really mean, and then joust with the right windmill! UNIX is not your enemy! An operating system is NOT the same thing as the user interface. Go after Freeport, that is fair game, but quit confusing it with the underlying operating system, which could be Unix or Win NT or whatever. The topic for valid discussion is the interface that users SEE, not the underlying nuts & bolts that keeps it running. Besides, if you hate unix, are you suggesting that we throw out several perfectly good Sun work stations, and buy monster PC boxes to run Win NT? And supposing we do, do you think that magically provides a wonderful interface on the users' end of the line? Ken > > > Rich > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Sun Sep 13 22:37:16 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hold it, hold it. Two Points 1. The issue is not the name of the software. I initially referred to Freeport E-mail and Pine as Unix=based programs (also, "Unix programs"). I thought I was speaking analogously to calling pre-Windows Wordperfect a DOS program. Apparently that is incorrect and you can run Freeport and Pine on other operating systems so it is incorrect to refer to either Freeport e-mail or Pine e-mail as "Unix-based" or "Unix programs". My apologies. 2. However, I'm not impressed that the terminology became the issue. The issue under discussion when this came up was that Freeport and Pine (on whatever operating system they run on, I guess) are difficult for users. The library also thinks they are difficult for users. a. This affects potential SCN user loyalty. b. This affects Seattle Public Library assessment of SCN's contribution. Those are the issues. Now, let's deal with these issues. Okay? Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jj at scn.org Mon Sep 14 01:45:00 1998 From: jj at scn.org (John Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rich: I, also, "am not impressed that the terminology became the issue." But the rest of us are not mind-readers; and since we do not have direct access to your mind we have to go by what you say. If you use the wrong term, it _does_ become an issue. So be more careful! As to the main point of the issue: Pine was designed, and is generally deemed to be, as "friendly" as possible. Of course, there is an inherent contradiction here: "friendly" is often expected to be both powerful (lots of choices) and simple (few choices). And _any_ system that one is familiar with tends to seem friendlier than any other system. But allowing for all that, I don't think you can point to any other e-mail program that is more "friendly" than Pine. (Can you?) === JJ ================================================================= On Sun, 13 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > Hold it, hold it. > > Two Points > > 1. The issue is not the name of the software. I initially referred to > Freeport E-mail and Pine as Unix=based programs (also, "Unix programs"). > I thought I was speaking analogously to calling pre-Windows Wordperfect a > DOS program. Apparently that is incorrect and you can run Freeport and > Pine on other operating systems so it is incorrect to refer to either > Freeport e-mail or Pine e-mail as "Unix-based" or "Unix programs". My > apologies. > > 2. However, I'm not impressed that the terminology became the issue. The > issue under discussion when this came up was that Freeport and Pine (on > whatever operating system they run on, I guess) are difficult for users. > > The library also thinks they are difficult for users. > > a. This affects potential SCN user loyalty. > b. This affects Seattle Public Library assessment of SCN's > contribution. > > Those are the issues. > > Now, let's deal with these issues. > > Okay? > > > Rich > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe services > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From starsrus at scn.org Mon Sep 14 08:31:31 1998 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, John Johnson wrote: [snip] > > As to the main point of the issue: Pine was designed, and is generally > deemed to be, as "friendly" as possible. Of course, there is an inherent > contradiction here: "friendly" is often expected to be both powerful > (lots of choices) and simple (few choices). And _any_ system that one is > familiar with tends to seem friendlier than any other system. But > allowing for all that, I don't think you can point to any other e-mail > program that is more "friendly" than Pine. (Can you?) > > === JJ ================================================================= > Well, that all depends on how you define friendly. If the point-and-click paradigm [ah I love that buzzword!] of Windows programs is the measure of friendly, then no, Pine ain't very friendly. However, if we allow that a text-and-keyboard program can be designed to be easily accessible, I think Pine is pretty good. It gives you a couple of lines of menu bar at the bottm of the screen with a concise list of the most useful commands for each screen context (main menu, folder list, index, and editing). If you need more help, there is a clearly labelled command right at the beginning of the menus. And, that in turn brings up a concise screen showing all the available commands for that context, followed by details for those who want them. Now, is that intuitively obvious? Probably not. it took me a little bit of practice to get used to Pine. On the other hand, because all the commands were listed in an accessible way, it also didn't have a very steep learning curve. It DOES require that you take time to read a few things, and I have the feeling that the Windows point-and-click mentality makes people impatient of anything that requires reading more than one or two words on a button label! My next question - is a point-and-click Windows style interface in an email program intuitively obvious? Also probably not. One of my colleagues at work set up Eudora, and I took time one day to play with it. And my initial response to THAT interface was "Huh? How do I find anthing among all these silly pull-down menus and options?" "How do I do something simple like send a damn email message?". Of course, the solution to such confusion is almost always RTFM. Which, as a last resort, is reading the paper manuals, if they exist. Or clicking through the rather ponderous Windows help system and hoping the authors of the program have indexed topics in the same way you think is logical. Or - in the case of Pine, having the help right there at the bottom of the screen or one keystroke away. I think there is a place for both approaches here. NO program or user interface is perfect, and they all take a little bit of work to learn. Ken Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From starsrus at scn.org Mon Sep 14 08:31:31 1998 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, John Johnson wrote: [snip] > > As to the main point of the issue: Pine was designed, and is generally > deemed to be, as "friendly" as possible. Of course, there is an inherent > contradiction here: "friendly" is often expected to be both powerful > (lots of choices) and simple (few choices). And _any_ system that one is > familiar with tends to seem friendlier than any other system. But > allowing for all that, I don't think you can point to any other e-mail > program that is more "friendly" than Pine. (Can you?) > > === JJ ================================================================= > Well, that all depends on how you define friendly. If the point-and-click paradigm [ah I love that buzzword!] of Windows programs is the measure of friendly, then no, Pine ain't very friendly. However, if we allow that a text-and-keyboard program can be designed to be easily accessible, I think Pine is pretty good. It gives you a couple of lines of menu bar at the bottm of the screen with a concise list of the most useful commands for each screen context (main menu, folder list, index, and editing). If you need more help, there is a clearly labelled command right at the beginning of the menus. And, that in turn brings up a concise screen showing all the available commands for that context, followed by details for those who want them. Now, is that intuitively obvious? Probably not. it took me a little bit of practice to get used to Pine. On the other hand, because all the commands were listed in an accessible way, it also didn't have a very steep learning curve. It DOES require that you take time to read a few things, and I have the feeling that the Windows point-and-click mentality makes people impatient of anything that requires reading more than one or two words on a button label! My next question - is a point-and-click Windows style interface in an email program intuitively obvious? Also probably not. One of my colleagues at work set up Eudora, and I took time one day to play with it. And my initial response to THAT interface was "Huh? How do I find anthing among all these silly pull-down menus and options?" "How do I do something simple like send a damn email message?". Of course, the solution to such confusion is almost always RTFM. Which, as a last resort, is reading the paper manuals, if they exist. Or clicking through the rather ponderous Windows help system and hoping the authors of the program have indexed topics in the same way you think is logical. Or - in the case of Pine, having the help right there at the bottom of the screen or one keystroke away. I think there is a place for both approaches here. NO program or user interface is perfect, and they all take a little bit of work to learn. Ken Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bk846 at scn.org Mon Sep 14 18:55:04 1998 From: bk846 at scn.org (Bill S) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SLIP/PPP (fwd) Message-ID: I've , no doubt foolishly, taken the liberty of lifting this from the Hardware/Software forum and tossing it into the fray here. I don't totally agree or disagree with this but we've been looking for user input and here is a bit of that. There are responses on the forum for those who want to look there. There that's my two cents for today. Bill S "Unfamiliar isn't equal to difficult." bk846 at scn.org "Simple Solutions rarely solve complex problems" In a previous article, bm816 at scn.org (Kevin Flinn) says: > >I was reading the Hardware/Software webpage and the Agenda page for SCN >and was noticing the talks of SLIP/PPP or some Slirp thing. > >I don't know if you want to make SCN into a SLIP/PPP accessible site. >Even though it would make things easier for the users and people could >surf the web much more graphically, it would slow things down. > >More people would stay online longer surfing. There would be more >callers, and more people would start using SCN over other servers because >they can get it for free. It would just end up bogging down SCN. > >So, all I'm saying is that before considering switching over to SLIP/PPP >it should be looked at whether or not that would increase traffic flow. >The way it is, makes it kind of nice, because people that don't want to >bother with non-graphical interfaces won't use this. If it was free, >everyone would come. There might have to be restricted access or some >other type of access, but is that what SCN wants to do? I may just end >up being another server like AOL. > >What do you think? > > >-- > _____________________ > <-> Kevin Flinn > <-> bm816 at scn.org > <-> www.scn.org/~bm816 > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From douglas Mon Sep 14 21:33:29 1998 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prescriptions for Ailing City Guides Message-ID: <199809150433.VAA19779@scn.org> Forwarded mail fyi from Amy Borgstrom, AFCN president... > Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:16:29 -0400 > From: Amy Borgstrom > To: "'afcn-members at lists.colorado.edu'" > Subject: ZDNet Prescriptions for Ailing City Guides > > This is a really interesting article about what the big commercial city > guides like Sidewalk and Digital Cities need to do to survive. Lots of good > advice for our community networks too, and interesting that he doesn't > mention us. I plan on e-mailing him... > > Apologies for cross posting to communet subscribers... > > Amy Borgstrom > Appalachian Center for Economic Networks > 94 Columbus Road > Athens, Ohio 45701 > (740) 592-3854 voice > (740) 593-5451 fax > amyb at seorf.ohiou.edu > http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx001 > > http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_2464.html > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Mon Sep 14 22:02:02 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: JJ, You did this before. What is the purpose of your question? If I give you 2 or 3 which are more friendly, what is your response? Will you then publicly join in an effort to get a friendlier system? Or was your question meant only to derail the discussion. But I'm not the one that has to be convinced. Its the people who get an account and then have to deal with the complex e-mail system. It also appears to be the SPL. Tell them how easy Pine and Freeport e-mail programs are. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, John Johnson wrote: > > Rich: I, also, "am not impressed that the terminology became the issue." > But the rest of us are not mind-readers; and since we do not have direct > access to your mind we have to go by what you say. If you use the wrong > term, it _does_ become an issue. So be more careful! > > As to the main point of the issue: Pine was designed, and is generally > deemed to be, as "friendly" as possible. Of course, there is an inherent > contradiction here: "friendly" is often expected to be both powerful > (lots of choices) and simple (few choices). And _any_ system that one is > familiar with tends to seem friendlier than any other system. But > allowing for all that, I don't think you can point to any other e-mail > program that is more "friendly" than Pine. (Can you?) > > === JJ ================================================================= > > On Sun, 13 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > > > > Hold it, hold it. > > > > Two Points > > > > 1. The issue is not the name of the software. I initially referred to > > Freeport E-mail and Pine as Unix=based programs (also, "Unix programs"). > > I thought I was speaking analogously to calling pre-Windows Wordperfect a > > DOS program. Apparently that is incorrect and you can run Freeport and > > Pine on other operating systems so it is incorrect to refer to either > > Freeport e-mail or Pine e-mail as "Unix-based" or "Unix programs". My > > apologies. > > > > 2. However, I'm not impressed that the terminology became the issue. The > > issue under discussion when this came up was that Freeport and Pine (on > > whatever operating system they run on, I guess) are difficult for users. > > > > The library also thinks they are difficult for users. > > > > a. This affects potential SCN user loyalty. > > b. This affects Seattle Public Library assessment of SCN's > > contribution. > > > > Those are the issues. > > > > Now, let's deal with these issues. > > > > Okay? > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe services > > END > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Mon Sep 14 22:10:21 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ken, You're right that Pine does a lot. I thought Freeport e-mail was neat also. But then, I still use WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS. I also have an emotional attacment to the (whatever you call it) e-mails SCN uses. But, you were also correct in concedeing that SCN e-mail is not easy compared to other options. However, I can accept a more difficult system if it's free AND IF IT IS TAUGHT WELL TO ITS USERS. I'm actively involved in teaching SCN e-mail and know it is not adequately taught, mostely because it we need ca. 10 times the numnber of vols. We also need more emphasis from SCN (help menus, updated ciricullum, basic and intermediate classes, etc. etc.). We do need to avoid the mentality: "It's what we got so it is good enough." Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Kenneth Applegate wrote: > On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, John Johnson wrote: > > [snip] > > > > As to the main point of the issue: Pine was designed, and is generally > > deemed to be, as "friendly" as possible. Of course, there is an inherent > > contradiction here: "friendly" is often expected to be both powerful > > (lots of choices) and simple (few choices). And _any_ system that one is > > familiar with tends to seem friendlier than any other system. But > > allowing for all that, I don't think you can point to any other e-mail > > program that is more "friendly" than Pine. (Can you?) > > > > === JJ ================================================================= > > > > Well, that all depends on how you define friendly. If the point-and-click > paradigm [ah I love that buzzword!] of Windows programs is the measure of > friendly, then no, Pine ain't very friendly. > > However, if we allow that a text-and-keyboard program can be designed to > be easily accessible, I think Pine is pretty good. It gives you a couple > of lines of menu bar at the bottm of the screen with a concise list of the > most useful commands for each screen context (main menu, folder list, > index, and editing). If you need more help, there is a clearly labelled > command right at the beginning of the menus. And, that in turn brings up a > concise screen showing all the available commands for that context, > followed by details for those who want them. > > Now, is that intuitively obvious? Probably not. it took me a little bit of > practice to get used to Pine. On the other hand, because all the commands > were listed in an accessible way, it also didn't have a very steep > learning curve. It DOES require that you take time to read a few things, > and I have the feeling that the Windows point-and-click mentality makes > people impatient of anything that requires reading more than one or two > words on a button label! > > My next question - is a point-and-click Windows style interface in an > email program intuitively obvious? Also probably not. One of my colleagues > at work set up Eudora, and I took time one day to play with it. And my > initial response to THAT interface was "Huh? How do I find anthing among > all these silly pull-down menus and options?" "How do I do something > simple like send a damn email message?". Of course, the solution to such > confusion is almost always RTFM. Which, as a last resort, is reading the > paper manuals, if they exist. Or clicking through the rather ponderous > Windows help system and hoping the authors of the program have indexed > topics in the same way you think is logical. Or - in the case of Pine, > having the help right there at the bottom of the screen or one keystroke > away. > > I think there is a place for both approaches here. NO program or user > interface is perfect, and they all take a little bit of work to learn. > > Ken > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? > By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Tue Sep 15 01:18:01 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 01:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prescriptions for Ailing City Guides In-Reply-To: <199809150433.VAA19779@scn.org> Message-ID: > > http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_2464.html Doug, That article briefly mentions Cox Interactive Media as an example of a company that's doing most things right in the author's view. Cox is planning to open a portal site soon in Seattle, to be called seattlespot.com. (Or I think that's the address, but there's nothing there now). In early July, some of their people met with some SCN people and talked for a while about what SCN was doing as a community network, and what Cox might be doing here, which still sounded very sketchy then. They thought SCN might be one of the local sites to which their portal would direct traffic (or "eyeballs"). Whether that happens or not (and it's probably not one of their hot priorities), they plan to attract lots of local content providers, and said they intended to become the best place for nonprofits to establish Web sites in Seattle. Of course, they want to be the eventual winner in the local city guide market. To do that, they have to make it very easy for local organizations to cluster onto their site in large numbers. Well, you can see their other city guides at www.cimedia.com, and form your own opinion. In any case, they will have huge viewership from promotions on KIRO and in other media. So whatever they do, it will instantly be hundreds of times more visible to the local Seattle audience than SCN is. Every once in a while, it's good to realize that we have only a tiny fraction of a percent of the local population looking at SCN, and most people in town have never heard of it, while Microsoft and others influence vast audiences every day with what they publish on their Seattle city sites. We are like an ant crossing a path frequented by hurrying elephants. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Tue Sep 15 08:51:01 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:51:01 -0700 Subject: SLIP/PPP (fwd) Message-ID: <01BDE085.F8085610.jmabel@saltmine.com> If we do SLIP/PPP dialup and it doesn't result in an increase of donations, we'll have a problem. So, if we do SLIP/PPP dialup, we have to do it in a a way likely to increase donations. We could have people specifically apply for SLIP/PPP dialup, and the process by which they apply includes filling out a form that reminds them that this would cost about $200/year commercially & asks for a donation, possibly with a "recommended donation" of $50/year. -----Original Message----- From: Bill S [SMTP:bk846 at scn.org] Sent: Monday, September 14, 1998 6:55 PM To: services at scn.org; scn at scn.org; Email Training Subject: Re: SLIP/PPP (fwd) I've , no doubt foolishly, taken the liberty of lifting this from the Hardware/Software forum and tossing it into the fray here. I don't totally agree or disagree with this but we've been looking for user input and here is a bit of that. There are responses on the forum for those who want to look there. There that's my two cents for today. Bill S "Unfamiliar isn't equal to difficult." bk846 at scn.org "Simple Solutions rarely solve complex problems" In a previous article, bm816 at scn.org (Kevin Flinn) says: > >I was reading the Hardware/Software webpage and the Agenda page for SCN >and was noticing the talks of SLIP/PPP or some Slirp thing. > >I don't know if you want to make SCN into a SLIP/PPP accessible site. >Even though it would make things easier for the users and people could >surf the web much more graphically, it would slow things down. > >More people would stay online longer surfing. There would be more >callers, and more people would start using SCN over other servers because >they can get it for free. It would just end up bogging down SCN. > >So, all I'm saying is that before considering switching over to SLIP/PPP >it should be looked at whether or not that would increase traffic flow. >The way it is, makes it kind of nice, because people that don't want to >bother with non-graphical interfaces won't use this. If it was free, >everyone would come. There might have to be restricted access or some >other type of access, but is that what SCN wants to do? I may just end >up being another server like AOL. > >What do you think? > > >-- > _____________________ > <-> Kevin Flinn > <-> bm816 at scn.org > <-> www.scn.org/~bm816 > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Tue Sep 15 08:53:34 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 08:53:34 -0700 Subject: Prescriptions for Ailing City Guides Message-ID: <01BDE086.531D98D0.jmabel@saltmine.com> "Think actionable content." Doesn't "actionable" mean something you can be sued over? -----Original Message----- From: Doug Schuler [SMTP:douglas at scn.org] Sent: Monday, September 14, 1998 9:33 PM To: scn at scn.org Subject: Prescriptions for Ailing City Guides Forwarded mail fyi from Amy Borgstrom, AFCN president... > Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:16:29 -0400 > From: Amy Borgstrom > To: "'afcn-members at lists.colorado.edu'" > Subject: ZDNet Prescriptions for Ailing City Guides > > This is a really interesting article about what the big commercial city > guides like Sidewalk and Digital Cities need to do to survive. Lots of good > advice for our community networks too, and interesting that he doesn't > mention us. I plan on e-mailing him... > > Apologies for cross posting to communet subscribers... > > Amy Borgstrom > Appalachian Center for Economic Networks > 94 Columbus Road > Athens, Ohio 45701 > (740) 592-3854 voice > (740) 593-5451 fax > amyb at seorf.ohiou.edu > http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx001 > > http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_2464.html > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From janossz at scn.org Tue Sep 15 21:17:44 1998 From: janossz at scn.org (Janos Szablya) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: e-mail? Message-ID: Well I tried not to get involved but we all apear to know how to use pine... For those that don't........ My quick voice mail trick for slow typists...... When you have time...play with pine (almost poetic) When you don't....(pending you have a Mac or any form of Windows) Type your document off line.... Highlight it..... Go to edit copy.... Go to your modem program... go into SCN (at this point I remind them that if they have never changed the password from 1 at sG3%*,df! DO IT NOW) Go to e-mail.....(just poke around till you find it) go to compose.... If you have windows and your program uses the whole screen (such as telix) hit alt+enter enter the address of your friend or enemy move the cursor below the message sign and PASTE then Ctrl X Now take the time time read the instructions.....the up arrow means the control key and somtimes you have to push shift (to get the up arrow above the 6) "key" Ctrl. And thats as tough as it gets.....like a bike it takes about 6 months to learn....kinda like Windows or the new game you just bought... Janos * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From janossz at scn.org Tue Sep 15 21:18:52 1998 From: janossz at scn.org (Janos Szablya) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: p Message-ID: please add a "p" to apear in line one. Janos PS and what ever other letters I've missed. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Tue Sep 15 21:43:37 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Janos, I laughed out loud. Good work summarizing your steps. Can we talk you into helping us teach e-mail? We do want to teach people to do more than just send and receive, and that is where difficulties multiply. However, for short messages, cut-n-paste does work ... Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Janos Szablya wrote: > > Well I tried not to get involved but we all apear to know how to use > pine... > > > For those that don't........ > > My quick voice mail trick for slow typists...... > > When you have time...play with pine (almost poetic) > When you don't....(pending you have a Mac or any form of Windows) > Type your document off line.... > Highlight it..... > Go to edit copy.... > Go to your modem program... > go into SCN (at this point I remind them that if they have never changed > the password from 1 at sG3%*,df! DO IT NOW) > Go to e-mail.....(just poke around till you find it) > go to compose.... > If you have windows and your program uses the whole screen (such as telix) > hit alt+enter > enter the address of your friend or enemy > move the cursor below the message sign and PASTE > then Ctrl X > Now take the time time read the instructions.....the up arrow means the > control key and somtimes you have to push shift (to get the up arrow above > the 6) "key" Ctrl. > > And thats as tough as it gets.....like a bike it takes about 6 months to > learn....kinda like Windows or the new game you just bought... > > Janos > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jj at scn.org Wed Sep 16 00:11:50 1998 From: jj at scn.org (John Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Come one Rich, don't keep us in suspense: tell us about these "2 or 3" e-mail "systems" that you think are more user friendly than Pine. Or do we have to make all sorts of promises to you before you will let us in on the secret? You keep mouthing off about how "unfriendly" Pine is, but you have yet to suggest even one example of something better. In words of one syllable: put up, or shut up. === JJ ================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From kamast at scn.org Wed Sep 16 07:23:17 1998 From: kamast at scn.org (Erik Stevens) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's my 2 cents on pine vs. other email systems, but I'm a technogeek wannabe, so this may not be worth much more than .02 ... What I like about pine: 1) menu commands at bottom of screen 2) help is only 2 key strokes away 3) pine is keyboard (rather than mouse) driven - this is great for fast typists. If you're not a fast typist, this is obviously a drawback 4) pine has some basic file management commands - if you know how to trick the system into it. I often start a dummy message and then use the file attachment command, followed by ^T - To Files, to rename and/or delete files from my work directory. When done, use ^E to exit the (file) browser, cancel the file attachment command, and then cancel the message itself. I find this to be much quicker than moving through SCN's freeport menu system to get to file maintenance and delete any unwanted files. The other advantage is that I'm still in Pine, so I can go back to reading email. 5) I can telnet from anywhere in the world to logon to scn and read my mail. This is great when traveling or if you use more than one computer (one at home, one at work, etc). I don't have to worry about remembering which computer a particular mail message is downloaded to, like with POP3 mail. What I don't like about pine: 1) I have to stay on-line to read and respond to messages on SCN (can one use PC-Pine via remote mail on scn? I've never had much luck with the remote mail feature on scn, so haven't explored that recently) 2) I have yet to discover a quick way to print out messages - the only way I've figured out how to do it is to export the message to a file, download it, and then open it in a text editor on my computer and then finally print. I've had inconsistent results with cutting and pasting blocks of text (from scn-pine to text editor on home pc) - often had strings of text characters "disappear". If there's a download feature from within pine, I'd love to hear about it, cuz it's a drag trying to remember to do the file download step after I'm done with pine but before I log off and hang up the connection. Can't think of any other pro's or con's at the moment, and I've gotta get ready for work. My main beef is that I have to be on-line, tying up my phone line to do it. Otherwise, I really like pine and once I learned all the shortcuts, can read and compose messages faster than MS-Outlook and Oulook Express, the only two POP3 mailreaders I've used. I'd be interested to hear other people's likes/dislikes about pine vs POP3 mailreaders. Erik Stevens kamast at scn.org erik023 at sttl.uswest.net * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From kamast at scn.org Wed Sep 16 07:23:17 1998 From: kamast at scn.org (Erik Stevens) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's my 2 cents on pine vs. other email systems, but I'm a technogeek wannabe, so this may not be worth much more than .02 ... What I like about pine: 1) menu commands at bottom of screen 2) help is only 2 key strokes away 3) pine is keyboard (rather than mouse) driven - this is great for fast typists. If you're not a fast typist, this is obviously a drawback 4) pine has some basic file management commands - if you know how to trick the system into it. I often start a dummy message and then use the file attachment command, followed by ^T - To Files, to rename and/or delete files from my work directory. When done, use ^E to exit the (file) browser, cancel the file attachment command, and then cancel the message itself. I find this to be much quicker than moving through SCN's freeport menu system to get to file maintenance and delete any unwanted files. The other advantage is that I'm still in Pine, so I can go back to reading email. 5) I can telnet from anywhere in the world to logon to scn and read my mail. This is great when traveling or if you use more than one computer (one at home, one at work, etc). I don't have to worry about remembering which computer a particular mail message is downloaded to, like with POP3 mail. What I don't like about pine: 1) I have to stay on-line to read and respond to messages on SCN (can one use PC-Pine via remote mail on scn? I've never had much luck with the remote mail feature on scn, so haven't explored that recently) 2) I have yet to discover a quick way to print out messages - the only way I've figured out how to do it is to export the message to a file, download it, and then open it in a text editor on my computer and then finally print. I've had inconsistent results with cutting and pasting blocks of text (from scn-pine to text editor on home pc) - often had strings of text characters "disappear". If there's a download feature from within pine, I'd love to hear about it, cuz it's a drag trying to remember to do the file download step after I'm done with pine but before I log off and hang up the connection. Can't think of any other pro's or con's at the moment, and I've gotta get ready for work. My main beef is that I have to be on-line, tying up my phone line to do it. Otherwise, I really like pine and once I learned all the shortcuts, can read and compose messages faster than MS-Outlook and Oulook Express, the only two POP3 mailreaders I've used. I'd be interested to hear other people's likes/dislikes about pine vs POP3 mailreaders. Erik Stevens kamast at scn.org erik023 at sttl.uswest.net * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Wed Sep 16 08:13:15 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:13:15 -0700 Subject: difficult e-mail? Message-ID: <01BDE149.DB296FB0.jmabel@saltmine.com> JJ, I object to the snide tone you are adopting. This discussion is useful. The "let's step outside & fight" tone isn't. Easy for one person is not easy for another. If you are used to a GUI, easy means meeting the expectations of that GUI. If you are used to a command line interface, easy means command line interface, like ancient Unix mail. If you've worked in computers for 20 years it's all easy. Ctrl-X to send is only easy if you are used to that sort of thing. Ctrl-W to search is almost pathological, but if you've used Pine/Pico enough you are used to it. I don't find Pine notably friendly or unfriendly, but it's one of the 100 or so computer programs I know well enough not to need to think about whether it's friendly. I suspect you are in the same boat. I suspect it's not the same 100 or so programs. My dad likes AOL's mail. Go figure. I think it's crap. But the point of what Rich & others are saying is that we should get away from "one size fits all". No one wants to take Pine away from you. The point is that if we want to serve a community we need to respect diversity: not just as a buzzword for racial, ethnic, class, and sexual diversity but actual rubber-meets-the-road diversity in how people want to use our system. -----Original Message----- From: John Johnson [SMTP:jj at scn.org] Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 12:12 AM To: Rich Littleton Cc: services at scn.org; scn at scn.org Subject: Re: difficult e-mail? Come one Rich, don't keep us in suspense: tell us about these "2 or 3" e-mail "systems" that you think are more user friendly than Pine. Or do we have to make all sorts of promises to you before you will let us in on the secret? You keep mouthing off about how "unfriendly" Pine is, but you have yet to suggest even one example of something better. In words of one syllable: put up, or shut up. === JJ ================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Wed Sep 16 08:43:01 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: <01BDE149.DB296FB0.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: > But the point of what Rich & others are saying is that we > should get away from "one size fits all". No one wants to take > Pine away from you. ... Joe, This is the approach that some other freenets take, while keeping their PPP and non-PPP services equally free and available to all users. Others see PPP as a revenue opportunity, and don't provide it to everyone. The National Capital Freenet (in Ottawa) has offered free, limited PPP service to their users since October, 1996. They offer plain text-only dialup and PPP on the same main phone number. To do this and keep from clogging up their system, they block IRC, ICQ and downloading of large file types like avi, zip and exe over PPP connections with the 60-minute sessions on their main dialup lines. But they allow fairly complete PPP usage on another PPP-only phone number with shorter 30-minute sessions and fewer modems. Their users can also download large files and use IRC through text-only connections, since these things don't require PPP. Presumably this has been more or less successful, since they're still doing it. But on the other hand, they have a lot of volunteers providing help desk support, and they echo the answers to help desk questions to a public newsgroup. (That alone would help SCN quite a bit, I think.) Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From alboss at scn.org Wed Sep 16 11:45:38 1998 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:45:38 -0700 Subject: Difficult e-mail vs. difficult volunteers References: Message-ID: <36000752.C0C1851A@scn.org> E-mail programs are compilations of binary code. Some are easier to figure out than others, and many types have more appeal to people with certain personalities than do others. E-mail programs are neither friendly nor unfriendly--but people are. Some are downright rude. I don't think we have so many volunteers to spare that we can afford to demean and insult one another in this public forum. May I suggest we deny ourselves that pleasure until our work is done? Despite our differences, we're here because we share some of the same beliefs and goals. We've not yet run out of common ground. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From randy at scn.org Wed Sep 16 13:02:51 1998 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:02:51 -0700 Subject: Difficult e-mail vs. difficult volunteers In-Reply-To: <36000752.C0C1851A@scn.org> References: Message-ID: <9809162004.AA19178@redwood.rt.cs.boeing.com> Once again - Al is the voice of reason. This is NOT a religious war, no matter how much people might have strong feelings about the subject. -randy At 11:45 9/16/98 -0700, Al Boss wrote: >E-mail programs are compilations of binary code. Some are easier to >figure out than others, and many types have more appeal to people with >certain personalities than do others. > >E-mail programs are neither friendly nor unfriendly--but people are. >Some are downright rude. I don't think we have so many volunteers to >spare that we can afford to demean and insult one another in this public >forum. May I suggest we deny ourselves that pleasure until our work is >done? Despite our differences, we're here because we share some of the >same beliefs and goals. We've not yet run out of common ground. >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * >. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: >majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: >unsubscribe scn >END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From mtsvme at scn.org Wed Sep 16 17:07:30 1998 From: mtsvme at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scn's email Message-ID: I am comfortable using pico. I do have some dislikes, however. Someone mentioned about typing fast. Quite frequently I have had to wait, and wait, and wait, for response in order to move the cursor. I would prefer to grab the rat & place that little underscore anywhere I want, instead of having to slowly wait for computer response to go across the phone lines. There is one major drawback using the current system, I believe @ scn, the character-set. Many people are using Outlook Express & other email software, and send the email using html (unknowingly). I either have to open this as an attachment, or forward it to another email address. And, if someone sends an attachment other than text, I have to forward it to another address in order to see it. Then there is the one other point... In order to work using a computer, @ probably 99+% of businesses, a person must be able to use microsoft. Learning to use pico/pine for most people does help them anywhere else. I understand that many people think text based systems are god's gift to the world, I prefer pretty pictures. I also believe in scn and hope to be able to commit volunteering again sometime within the next ...? Thomas * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From mtsvme at scn.org Wed Sep 16 17:07:30 1998 From: mtsvme at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scn's email Message-ID: I am comfortable using pico. I do have some dislikes, however. Someone mentioned about typing fast. Quite frequently I have had to wait, and wait, and wait, for response in order to move the cursor. I would prefer to grab the rat & place that little underscore anywhere I want, instead of having to slowly wait for computer response to go across the phone lines. There is one major drawback using the current system, I believe @ scn, the character-set. Many people are using Outlook Express & other email software, and send the email using html (unknowingly). I either have to open this as an attachment, or forward it to another email address. And, if someone sends an attachment other than text, I have to forward it to another address in order to see it. Then there is the one other point... In order to work using a computer, @ probably 99+% of businesses, a person must be able to use microsoft. Learning to use pico/pine for most people does help them anywhere else. I understand that many people think text based systems are god's gift to the world, I prefer pretty pictures. I also believe in scn and hope to be able to commit volunteering again sometime within the next ...? Thomas * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Wed Sep 16 22:46:56 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Such hostility! Oooooooo! ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, John Johnson wrote: > > Come one Rich, don't keep us in suspense: tell us about these "2 or 3" > e-mail "systems" that you think are more user friendly than Pine. Or do > we have to make all sorts of promises to you before you will let us in on > the secret? > > You keep mouthing off about how "unfriendly" Pine is, but you have yet to > suggest even one example of something better. In words of one syllable: > put up, or shut up. > > === JJ ================================================================= > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jj at scn.org Wed Sep 16 22:49:28 1998 From: jj at scn.org (John Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In response to Joe's message: neither am I fond of a "let's go outside and fight attitude". Now that wasn't quite what I intended in my previous message, although I will grant that there was strong attitude showing, and a certain bluntness and lack of amplification from which gentler souls might fairly take an objection. However, that message wasn't primarily directed to gentler souls--it was directed to Rich Littleton, who seems to have the rhetorical finesse of a driverless bulldozer. (Easy, folks! I don't say that is necessarily a bad thing, or mean it as a moral judgment. It's just a reality that has to be dealt with.)(Besides, sometimes we need bulldozers.) Sorry Joe, and my apologies to any other gentler souls that were standing too close when the charge went off. Let's look at the issue. Rich has been going long and hard on a tirade that the e-mail "system" we teach in the SCN e-mail classes is "too difficult" (or "complex" or "user unfriendly") for our users. So? What we teach in the classes is constrained to what we use on the system. (We should teach how to use, say, Hotmail?) Ah, but perhaps Rich meant to raise the issue of what e-mail front ends we _should_ have available on the system. Fine, I have no objection to that. (But that is not properly an issue for the e-mail class.) Now I can speak from personal experience (having taught the classes, and worked on the Help Desk) that _any_ e-mail front-end, and perhaps even the concept of e-mail in itself, seems to be too difficult for some people. But to adopt a requirement that e-mail should be _zero_ difficulty is absurd: there is no such beast. The best we can do is decide which of the extant choices is _least_ difficult. (Or fastest, or bluest, or whatever criteria we think appropriate.) And I have no objection to a discussion of the various merits and qualities of various e-mail front-ends. (I am also in full agreement with the rest of the points Joe made about the relative qualities of different programs.) What I do object to is Rich trashing Pine (or was it Unix?) without showing us anything he thinks is better. And I strongly object to his trying to get a commitment that we should get a friendlier "system" (presumably a front-end that he thinks is friendlier--or is he contemplating replacing SMTP?) without telling us what this mysterious friendlier system is. That is tantamount to signing a blank check. Therefore my challenge to Rich: what is this mysterious "friendlier" system(s)? He wants us to change, but to what? Mind, I am not saying that Pine is best of all possibilities. But unless someone can show something better it is rather senseless to continue trashing it. (Rich also insinuates that I was trying to derail this discussion of e-mail front-ends. Not so. I am trying to get it back _on_ the rails.) My apologies again to anyone that thinks this message was too long. But do consider: 1) when explication is needed brevity isn't always good, and 2) my previous message ("put up or shut up") did have the (abeit question- able!) merit of brevity. (For anyone that wants to chew this further, I've included below the message that I previously responded to. Unedited, of course.) === JJ ================================================================= On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > JJ, > > You did this before. What is the purpose of your question? If I give you > 2 or 3 which are more friendly, what is your response? Will you then > publicly join in an effort to get a friendlier system? > > Or was your question meant only to derail the discussion. > > But I'm not the one that has to be convinced. Its the people who get an > account and then have to deal with the complex e-mail system. It also > appears to be the SPL. > > Tell them how easy Pine and Freeport e-mail programs are. > > Rich > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, John Johnson wrote: > > > > > Rich: I, also, "am not impressed that the terminology became the issue." > > But the rest of us are not mind-readers; and since we do not have direct > > access to your mind we have to go by what you say. If you use the wrong > > term, it _does_ become an issue. So be more careful! > > > > As to the main point of the issue: Pine was designed, and is generally > > deemed to be, as "friendly" as possible. Of course, there is an inherent > > contradiction here: "friendly" is often expected to be both powerful > > (lots of choices) and simple (few choices). And _any_ system that one is > > familiar with tends to seem friendlier than any other system. But > > allowing for all that, I don't think you can point to any other e-mail > > program that is more "friendly" than Pine. (Can you?) > > > > === JJ ================================================================= > > > > On Sun, 13 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > > > > > > > Hold it, hold it. > > > > > > Two Points > > > > > > 1. The issue is not the name of the software. I initially referred to > > > Freeport E-mail and Pine as Unix=based programs (also, "Unix programs"). > > > I thought I was speaking analogously to calling pre-Windows Wordperfect a > > > DOS program. Apparently that is incorrect and you can run Freeport and > > > Pine on other operating systems so it is incorrect to refer to either > > > Freeport e-mail or Pine e-mail as "Unix-based" or "Unix programs". My > > > apologies. > > > > > > 2. However, I'm not impressed that the terminology became the issue. The > > > issue under discussion when this came up was that Freeport and Pine (on > > > whatever operating system they run on, I guess) are difficult for users. > > > > > > The library also thinks they are difficult for users. > > > > > > a. This affects potential SCN user loyalty. > > > b. This affects Seattle Public Library assessment of SCN's > > > contribution. > > > > > > Those are the issues. > > > > > > Now, let's deal with these issues. > > > > > > Okay? > > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe services > > > END > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Wed Sep 16 23:24:35 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Driverless bulldozer!!!???!! It that weren't so true, I'd be offended. :-) Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jj at scn.org Wed Sep 16 23:29:28 1998 From: jj at scn.org (John Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rich: Is that all you can add to the discussion? Is it hostility that I have asked you a simple question? Is it hostility that I point out that you haven't answered it? That possibly you don't even have one answer, let alone "2 or 3"? Or are you afraid because you don't have an answer? Why? If you can inform all of us of something better than Pine, you will have our gratitude. If others don't agree with your answer, so what? I and others have already pointed out tastes vary, and _any_ front-end (even vi!) is right for some people. That's not an issue. If you don't have an answer, well, I suppose there is a remote possibility that you could be chained in a cubicle and forced to write a totally simple e-mail program--in Lisp. (So be strong and take your chances.) Or could just stop complaining about difficult e-mail is. And perhaps apply your energies to a more useful issue. === JJ ================================================================= On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > Such hostility! Oooooooo! > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, John Johnson wrote: > > > > > Come one Rich, don't keep us in suspense: tell us about these "2 or 3" > > e-mail "systems" that you think are more user friendly than Pine. Or do > > we have to make all sorts of promises to you before you will let us in on > > the secret? > > > > You keep mouthing off about how "unfriendly" Pine is, but you have yet to > > suggest even one example of something better. In words of one syllable: > > put up, or shut up. > > > > === JJ ================================================================= > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb156 at scn.org Thu Sep 17 01:41:30 1998 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The following is from the em-trng mailing list information file. I have had several people ask me to drop their names from the em-trng list because of indiscriminate cross-postings to the list of discussions better held elsewhere e.g. services at scn.org and scn at scn.org. I must ask all who wish to continue discussing these worthwhile topics to avoid originating posts to the em-trng list, and to strip the address from threads where it exists. They do not fit the stated purpose of the list. Thank you, Andrew ========================================================================= This mailing list is for the e-mail class trainers to discuss the class and its content, and to keep informed of schedules, developments, etc. This is a 'closed' mailing list, in that only e-mail class trainers may subscribe, and only subscribers may contribute. (Let us know if you will be contributing from a different address.) Questions _about_ this mailing list should be sent to the list owner, the SCN Help Desk ('help at scn.org'). ========================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From starsrus at scn.org Thu Sep 17 09:06:34 1998 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Erik Stevens wrote: [snip] > What I don't like about pine: > 1) I have to stay on-line to read and respond to messages on SCN (can one > use PC-Pine via remote mail on scn? I've never had much luck with the > remote mail feature on scn, so haven't explored that recently) I think current versions of PC-Pine work OK for either telnet or dialup. There is even a sort-of-Windows version. I haven't used PC-Pine for a couple of years, so I can't comment on details. > 2) I have yet to discover a quick way to print out messages - the only way > I've figured out how to do it is to export the message to a file, download > it, and then open it in a text editor on my computer and then finally > print. That's easy - There is a "Y" (for prYnt) command available while you are viewing a message. You get a rather cryptic "Print-attached-to-ansi" prompt, answer Y (for yes this time), and the printer on your PC should fire up and spit out the email message you are reading. Ken Applegate > Erik Stevens > kamast at scn.org > erik023 at sttl.uswest.net > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Thu Sep 17 09:17:49 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:17:49 -0700 Subject: difficult e-mail? Message-ID: <01BDE21C.0AF4F7F0.jmabel@saltmine.com> Still doesn't change what I find most annoying working on a PC: I don't have effective use of my usual Page Up, Page Down, Home, End, etc. keys. For PC users, these become a reflex. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Applegate [SMTP:starsrus at scn.org] Sent: Thursday, September 17, 1998 9:07 AM To: Erik Stevens Cc: John Johnson; Rich Littleton; services at scn.org; scn at scn.org Subject: Re: difficult e-mail? On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Erik Stevens wrote: [snip] > What I don't like about pine: > 1) I have to stay on-line to read and respond to messages on SCN (can one > use PC-Pine via remote mail on scn? I've never had much luck with the > remote mail feature on scn, so haven't explored that recently) I think current versions of PC-Pine work OK for either telnet or dialup. There is even a sort-of-Windows version. I haven't used PC-Pine for a couple of years, so I can't comment on details. > 2) I have yet to discover a quick way to print out messages - the only way > I've figured out how to do it is to export the message to a file, download > it, and then open it in a text editor on my computer and then finally > print. That's easy - There is a "Y" (for prYnt) command available while you are viewing a message. You get a rather cryptic "Print-attached-to-ansi" prompt, answer Y (for yes this time), and the printer on your PC should fire up and spit out the email message you are reading. Ken Applegate > Erik Stevens > kamast at scn.org > erik023 at sttl.uswest.net > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb156 at scn.org Thu Sep 17 11:17:49 1998 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Unlike any other email program mentioned, Pine has an instruction series available either on cable TV narrowcast or on videotape at the Seattle Public Library. Study at home! Earn your degree! Electronic mail using Pine SPL call# VHS 384.34 ELECTRO pt.1-3 Link: Electronic Mail Using Pine URL: http://www.washington.edu/uwtv/pine.html -Andrew ,_____,_____, 6 __ _ User: bb156 T\ :. .^\,_/_\_|_ /_| _/_ _ )__/'_ _ ' _ Domain: scn.org I ^T=====;=====T /| ( |/)(// (-((/ / //(/(///)_) Seattle, WA I I _|_| _/_/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From lss at scn.org Thu Sep 17 13:02:04 1998 From: lss at scn.org (Lutheran Social Services) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Kenneth Applegate wrote: > On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Erik Stevens wrote: > > [snip] > > > 2) I have yet to discover a quick way to print out messages - the only way > > I've figured out how to do it is to export the message to a file, download > > it, and then open it in a text editor on my computer and then finally > > print. > > That's easy - There is a "Y" (for prYnt) command available while you are > viewing a message. You get a rather cryptic "Print-attached-to-ansi" > prompt, answer Y (for yes this time), and the printer on your PC should > fire up and spit out the email message you are reading. > > Ken Applegate > > > Erik Stevens Sorry, should have been more precise - the "Y" print command does not appear to work when you're on a LAN and using network printing. I haven't tried it recently at home with a local printer, but will try and see what results I get. Erik Stevens also at Lutheran Social Services lss at scn.org kamast at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From starsrus at scn.org Thu Sep 17 13:18:39 1998 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Lutheran Social Services wrote: > On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Kenneth Applegate wrote: > > > On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Erik Stevens wrote: > > > > Sorry, should have been more precise - the "Y" print command does not > appear to work when you're on a LAN and using network printing. I haven't > tried it recently at home with a local printer, but will try and see what > results I get. Not so - it seems to vary from one setup to another. I just printed your posting with the Y command to an inkjet hooked to a Win 95 PC on the U of Washington network system. If I go in the next room, I can do the same thing to a Laserwriter hooked to a Mac on the UW network. On the other hand if I try the same thing to the Laserwriter from a Win NT machine connected via parallel port cable, and going through a "smart" printer switchbox, I get zilch printout from Pine. I haven't tracked it in detail, but I suspect the switchbox must be intercepting some critical control sequences from the Pine download. Possibly your LAN is doing some kind of interception that prevents Pine from activating your printer. Ken Applegate P.S. - I have never seen any problem with using the Pine "Y" command over a dialup connection. > > Erik Stevens > also at Lutheran Social Services > lss at scn.org > kamast at scn.org > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From aki at cpsr.org Thu Sep 17 20:48:27 1998 From: aki at cpsr.org (Aki Namioka) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:48:27 -0700 Subject: Annual ACLU calendar fundraiser Message-ID: <199809180348.UAA02450@beaker.nwnexus.com> Hello All: Once again it is time for us to help ACLU Washington by participating in their annual calendar drive. For those of you who are new to this process, each organization can sponsor a page for $500 dollars. The recommended amount is 10 people @ $50.00. However, ANY AMOUNT YOU CAN DONATE will be much appreciated. In return you get a 1999 scheduler full of witty quotes and cartoons that are related to civil liberties. CPSR/Seattle and SCNA always sponsors a cartoon page that contains a Steven Greenberg cartoon (a Seattle P-I Editorial cartoonist). So, please let me know if you are interested in participating this year and how much you are going to donate. Thanks, Aki Namioka * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Fri Sep 18 00:50:56 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 00:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difficult e-mail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm embarrassed. We did the "Y" print thing at Lake City branch, successfully. (I believe they have a LAN operation ....???). Thanks for teaching the teachers. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Fri Sep 18 01:18:31 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 01:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slip/slirp/ppp capability for SCN--uh oh! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I do understand that SCN is built on Unix, and, as I was educated about recently, this is not the problem. Not having a PPP setup apparently is. My main point is that it is very difficult for new people to use, so we should step up the teaching, if we can't provide an easier program. I've picked up from talking with librarians that SPL is planning to go graphic by early next year, and this makes them look askanse at SCN's less friendly Pine/Freeport systems. The fact that we are FREE to home users is still in our favor. However, this raises questions about our target group. If we are best suited for homes with computer hookups, maybe we are simply giving a free service to homes which could purchase it from an IP. Nice of us, but hardly noble or an essential social service. (The poor who only use the library can get e-mail free there, in a graphical (friendly) format.) We need to consider SCN goals. We should think about a series of meeting to deal with this. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, allen wrote: > sorry for delay in response. actually rich...unix is about the most > simple OS around...or Linux for PCs. is complex to use sometimes...and > part of unix from the beginning was to make the kernel very basic. > I do not forsee SCN moving away from unix (unless it is to linux)...as > almost other isps will not. NT simply does not have the capabilities that > unix has. perhaps you are speaking of the user interface? I agree with > that...we should have had a web based interface by the end of 1996...that > was the deadline set at a hardware committee meeting summer of that year. > re mail? pine is much more user friendly than freeport and offers so > much more...very few folks in my experience have any interest in returning > to freeport mailer...this is from 3+ years on scn help desk. > > On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:11:56 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Rich Littleton > > To: Rod Clark > > Cc: hardware at scn.org, webmasters at scn.org > > Subject: Re: Slip/slirp/ppp capability for SCN--uh oh! > > > > > > Rod's comments give both information and perspective. > > > > However, I think pushing and maintaining simpler technology should be an > > SCNA > > priority, especially if SCN does stick with Unix. Perhaps, SCNA's true > > service might be to design or re-design a Unix system to be user friendly. > > Perhaps our discussion should focus less on SLIP/PPP lines and more on > > useable NEW Unix programs (in e-mail) > > > > Thanks Rod for good info. > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe hardware > > END > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe hardware > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Fri Sep 18 08:03:51 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:03:51 -0700 Subject: Slip/slirp/ppp capability for SCN--uh oh! Message-ID: <01BDE2DA.E0678330.jmabel@saltmine.com> So, to pick up another strain of discussion, if our main thrust is going to be to provide free access at home for people, we need to step upi the program of recycling computers into the hands of people who could not otherwise afford them. -----Original Message----- From: Rich Littleton [SMTP:be718 at scn.org] Sent: Friday, September 18, 1998 1:19 AM To: allen Cc: hardware at scn.org; scn at scn.org; services at scn.org Subject: Re: Slip/slirp/ppp capability for SCN--uh oh! I do understand that SCN is built on Unix, and, as I was educated about recently, this is not the problem. Not having a PPP setup apparently is. My main point is that it is very difficult for new people to use, so we should step up the teaching, if we can't provide an easier program. I've picked up from talking with librarians that SPL is planning to go graphic by early next year, and this makes them look askanse at SCN's less friendly Pine/Freeport systems. The fact that we are FREE to home users is still in our favor. However, this raises questions about our target group. If we are best suited for homes with computer hookups, maybe we are simply giving a free service to homes which could purchase it from an IP. Nice of us, but hardly noble or an essential social service. (The poor who only use the library can get e-mail free there, in a graphical (friendly) format.) We need to consider SCN goals. We should think about a series of meeting to deal with this. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, allen wrote: > sorry for delay in response. actually rich...unix is about the most > simple OS around...or Linux for PCs. is complex to use sometimes...and > part of unix from the beginning was to make the kernel very basic. > I do not forsee SCN moving away from unix (unless it is to linux)...as > almost other isps will not. NT simply does not have the capabilities that > unix has. perhaps you are speaking of the user interface? I agree with > that...we should have had a web based interface by the end of 1996...that > was the deadline set at a hardware committee meeting summer of that year. > re mail? pine is much more user friendly than freeport and offers so > much more...very few folks in my experience have any interest in returning > to freeport mailer...this is from 3+ years on scn help desk. > > On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:11:56 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Rich Littleton > > To: Rod Clark > > Cc: hardware at scn.org, webmasters at scn.org > > Subject: Re: Slip/slirp/ppp capability for SCN--uh oh! > > > > > > Rod's comments give both information and perspective. > > > > However, I think pushing and maintaining simpler technology should be an > > SCNA > > priority, especially if SCN does stick with Unix. Perhaps, SCNA's true > > service might be to design or re-design a Unix system to be user friendly. > > Perhaps our discussion should focus less on SLIP/PPP lines and more on > > useable NEW Unix programs (in e-mail) > > > > Thanks Rod for good info. > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe hardware > > END > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe hardware > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jimh at scn.org Fri Sep 18 13:35:41 1998 From: jimh at scn.org (Jim Horton) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN team for AIDS Walk '98 Message-ID: It's almost time for the 1998 Seattle AIDS Walk. This will be the 4th year that Seattle Community Network has had a team entry, and I encourage all that are interested to turn out and join us. The walk starts at 10:00 from Memorial Stadium on Sunday, September 27. We generally meet up near the registration tent at around 9:00 AM. See the AIDS Walk web page, http://www.nwaids.org/walk.htm for info and let me know if you will be joining us - so I will know to look for you. Jim -- Jim Horton jimh at scn.org Seattle Community Network * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb156 at scn.org Sun Sep 20 16:33:14 1998 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: October E-mail Classes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello all, This is the second and last call. Unless I have some response by Monday at noon I will have to ask Joan Johnson at SPL to cancel the October classes. The idea of offering email classes was a good one, the reality is that we have a dearth of volunteers to conduct them. -Andrew > And one more this month. Please get back to me with your availability as > soon as you can. I'm contacting Joan on Monday 9/21 to finalize the > potential Sunday and evening classes. We _need_ your volunteer time and > help to make these classes happen > > -Andrew > > > > Wednesday, Sep. 30, 6:00-8:00 p.m. > > 1. Lynn LaVerdure > 2. Bill Scott > 3. Rich Littleton > 4. > > > > Using Your Seattle Community Network E-mail Account > October Classes 1998 > > > Tuesday, October 6, 1:00-3:00 p.m. > > 1. > 2. > 3. > 4. Andrew Higgins > > > Tuesday, October 20, 1:00-3:00 p.m. > > 1. > 2. > 3. > 4. Andrew Higgins > > > > These are the proposed dates for October. Celerity, please. > > > Wednesday, October 7, 14 & 21, 6:00-8:00 p.m. > ~~~~~~~ ~ ~~ ~~ > **Please indicate which date(s) you are available for** > > 1. Barb Avonia Weismann (can do the 10/14 class) > 2. Bill S. (can do any of the three Wednesdays) > 3. > 4. > > > Sunday, October 4, 11, 18 & 25, 2:00-4:00 p.m. > > **Please indicate which date(s) you are available for** > > 1. > 2. > 3. > 4. > > > -Andrew > > P.S. Apologies to those on the services list, I'm getting an underwhelming > response on the em-trng list. We must fill these instructor/assistant > slots or pack it in on giving these classes. > ,_____,_____, 6 __ _ User: bb156 T\ :. .^\,_/_\_|_ /_| _/_ _ )__/'_ _ ' _ Domain: scn.org I ^T=====;=====T /| ( |/)(// (-((/ / //(/(///)_) Seattle, WA I I _|_| _/_/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb156 at scn.org Mon Sep 21 12:11:55 1998 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: October E-mail Classes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Using Your Seattle Community Network E-mail Account > October Classes 1998 All the SCN email classes are held at the Central Library ~~~ 1000 4th Avenue Seattle, WA 98104-1193 (206) 386-4636 This is the added class, thanks to Sheri for riding to the rescue! > Wednesday, October 14, 6:00-8:00 p.m. > > 1. Barb Avonia Weismann > 2. Bill S. > 3. Sheri Skuja > 4. These are already on the SPL schedule so I'm reluctant to cancel them. Anyone else? > Tuesday, October 6, 1:00-3:00 p.m. > > 1. Jim Horton > 2. Andrew Higgins > 3. > 4. > > > Tuesday, October 20, 1:00-3:00 p.m. > > 1. > 2. > 3. > 4. Andrew Higgins -Andrew ,_____,_____, 6 __ _ User: bb156 T\ :. .^\,_/_\_|_ /_| _/_ _ )__/'_ _ ' _ Domain: scn.org I ^T=====;=====T /| ( |/)(// (-((/ / //(/(///)_) Seattle, WA I I _|_| _/_/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jimh at scn.org Thu Sep 24 00:36:30 1998 From: jimh at scn.org (Jim Horton) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 00:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AIDS Walk - it's not too late Message-ID: Please excuse any duplicate copies you may get of this. I guess that everyone that might be interested in this did not see my earlier announcement. The Seattle AIDS Walk is this Sunday, September 27. This will be the 4th year that SCN/SCNA will enter a team in the walk. We will meet near the registration tent, next to Memorial Stadium at Seattle Center. If you are already registered to walk as an individual, considerr joining us, and put Seattle Community Network, or SCN, as the team name. I am team captain. Send me a note if you're coming, so we'll know to look for you, and remember to wear your SCN T-shirt. thanks, Jim -- Jim Horton jimh at scn.org Seattle Community Network * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From alboss at scn.org Thu Sep 24 10:35:12 1998 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:35:12 -0700 Subject: ISP price structure change in the UK Message-ID: <01BDE7A7.02EA34E0.alboss@scn.org> FREE INTERNET SERVICE IN THE U.K. British consumer electronics retailer Dixons Group and telecommunications firm Energis are teaming up to provide a free Internet service to citizens in the U.K. Users will not be required to pay any registration or usage fees, but will be charged $1.68 a minute for technical support. The move is expected to force other Internet service providers in that country to reevaluate their pricing structures. (Wall Street Journal 23 Sep 98) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Thu Sep 24 11:08:54 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:08:54 -0700 Subject: ISP price structure change in the UK Message-ID: <01BDE7AB.B888F850.jmabel@saltmine.com> Details from one of our UK colleagues. -----Original Message----- From: Alan Whiteley [SMTP:alanw at saltmine.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, September 24, 1998 11:09 AM To: Joe Mabel Subject: Re: ISP price structure change in the UK yeah. Here's how it works. The ISP phone number is an 0845 number which is kind of like a local call, costs pretty much the same as a local call. Even local calls here cost money. The phone company has to rent the lines to competing phone companies for a greatly reduced fee than the consumer sees. The ISP simply rents 0845 lines from BT. The ISP gets a cut of all the calls that are charged against the line. So they essentially pay for the operation because people are being charged to use the phone lines. Dixons did a huge cost analysis on the whole thing and their breakeven point is a like a year or so away I think. The things they don't have to spend money on is the distribution. You go to any Dixons and pick up the software. The other free ISPs are doing pretty much the same thing. They are recommending the free service only to people who know how to user computers as they don't provide the kind of support that most ISPs do. AOL users need not apply is the basic line.... ajw -----Original Message----- From: Joe Mabel To: 'smuk at saltmine.com' Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 6:37 PM Subject: FW: ISP price structure change in the UK >Can any of you shed any light on this? >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Joe Mabel >206-284-7511 >"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." L. Frank Baum > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Al Boss [SMTP:alboss at scn.org] >Sent: Thursday, September 24, 1998 10:35 AM >To: 'scn at scn.org' >Subject: ISP price structure change in the UK > >FREE INTERNET SERVICE IN THE U.K. >British consumer electronics retailer Dixons Group and telecommunications >firm Energis are teaming up to provide a free Internet service to citizens >in the U.K. Users will not be required to pay any registration or usage >fees, but will be charged $1.68 a minute for technical support. The move is >expected to force other Internet service providers in that country to >reevaluate their pricing structures. (Wall Street Journal 23 Sep 98) > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From gtruzzi at scn.org Thu Sep 24 21:34:52 1998 From: gtruzzi at scn.org (Gianni Truzzi) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 21:34:52 -0700 Subject: Call for Volunteers Message-ID: <360B1D6C.106F@scn.org> All: The SCNA Fundraising Committee is scheduled to meet on Monday, 9/28 at 7:30pm, at the Good Shepherd Center. If you have any interest in working on the Fundraising Committee, now would be an excellent time to contribute your talents! We have just completed the mailing of the Annual Appeal, and will need assistance processing the returns. Plus, we are developing our fundraising plan for next year! Immediately, there is a need for volunteers to be part of our new "Thank-You Brigade." This work involves addressing and signing thank-yous to our donors, and also developing ideas for special events to offer to our high-level donors as a thank-you from SCNA. The objective of this group will be, by regular thanking, encourage donations from our users. There is much other work to do, eventually. We will be producing a newsletter and other material, so we need someone who has skills in layout and desktop publishing. Come and find out what's going on! -- Gianni ============================================================= Gianni Truzzi gtruzzi at scn.org ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Fri Sep 25 14:26:42 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:26:42 -0800 Subject: Links & copyrights Message-ID: <199809252036.NAA17994@scn.org> Can a Web Link Break Copyright Laws? Carl S. Kaplan NY Times 9/25/98 Suppose a Web site links to a site that links to another site containing illegally reproduced photographs. Can the first site be sued for illegal linking? That's just one of the many head-scratchers that were raised by an unprecedented copyright infringement lawsuit filed and then withdrawn by Gary Bernstein, a veteran Hollywood glamour photographer. The suit charged J.C. Penney Inc. and other parties with copyright infringement. Bernstein quietly withdrew his lawsuit on Monday after he lost a preliminary round in the legal contest. But the fundamental issue he raised -- liability for linking on the Internet -- is still alive and will come up for court review another day, legal experts said. Bernstein's lawsuit is "fascinating and also really scary," said Jessica Litman, a copyright expert and law professor at Wayne State University. "If people are going to be liable when they link to material that they have no reason to think is infringing, then everyone, everyone who links, will be dragged into court all the time. That doesn't make good policy sense." On September 21, Los Angeles Federal District Court Judge Manuel A. Real appeared to pour cold water on Bernstein's case when he dismissed one of the defendants. Conopco Inc. had argued in legal filings that Bernstein's suit had "no support in the law, and would effectively eviscerate the Internet as a medium of communication." Judge Real did not issue an opinion in the matter, but his decision prompted Bernstein's withdrawal. Bernstein, 50, is the author of nine books on photography and a 30-year veteran behind the camera, having snapped Sophia Lauren, Johnny Carson, Elizabeth Taylor and other celebrities. His foray into cyberspace law began last year when he was surfing the Web and came across J.C. Penney's home page. He noticed that the company was promoting sales of Elizabeth Taylor's "Passion" perfume, which is made by Elizabeth Arden Co. and Parfums International Ltd., both divisions of Conopco. Bernstein knew the perfume well. In 1989, he had created and licensed an elaborate photo of Elizabeth Taylor -- which Bernstein dubbed the "Pink Lady Image" -- in connection with the advertising and promotion of "Passion." He also took pictures of Elizabeth Taylor on other occasions, notably in 1986 for the cover of Petersen's Photographic Magazine. Bernstein calls that shot the "Lavender Image." Bernstein discovered during his visit to the J.C. Penney site that by clicking on a series of hyperlinks to get additional information on Elizabeth Taylor, he was taken from J.C. Penney's "Passion" subpage to a site called the Internet Movie Database -- which is not affiliated with J.C. Penney or the makers of "Passion" -- and then to a site in Sweden called SUNET, for the Swedish University Network. The site contains a large collection of celebrity photos, apparently placed on the Internet by fans. It included two images of Ms. Taylor -- the Pink Lady Image and the Lavender Image. After learning of Bernstein's claim that the SUNET site contained illegally reproduced images, J.C. Penney removed its link to the movie database site. As of Thursday, the movie site still linked to the Swedish site from its collection of information on Ms. Taylor, with a disclaimer of liability for linking. Bernstein sued J.C. Penney, the perfume makers, the Internet Movie Database and other parties in April, claiming that they were liable for copyright infringement. Specifically, he claimed the defendants' use of multiple links intentionally drove Web surfers to the pirated Taylor photos on the Swedish site. In an interview, he claimed that if J.C. Penney and the perfume makers wanted to use his pictures, they should have paid him directly -- instead of indirectly linking to the photos and reaping the benefit but escaping the fee. J.C. Penney denied the charges in court filings, and a spokesman for the company declined comment on the dropped case. The perfume companies moved to have themselves dismissed from the suit. Conopco's lawyer, Roger Myers of Steinhart & Falconer in San Francisco, argued that the J.C. Penney site was not guilty of direct copyright infringement because it didn't make a copy or distribute the Taylor images. The pictures remained on the site in Sweden. Myers, who has represented The New York Times in some legal matters, further argued that Penney and his client could not be guilty of "contributory" copyright infringement. This requires that the guilty party have knowledge of the first infringement and take some action to aid that infringement. In this case, he said, there was no evidence that the J.C. Penney site or the perfume maker knew the series of links would eventually lead to a set of pirated pictures abroad. He also asserted that the chain of links -- six in all -- on the road to the pirated photos was too long to meet the legal standard for assisting another's infringement. One wrinkle in the case has some legal experts especially worried. Bernstein asserted that any Web surfer who viewed the pirated Taylor images on the Swedish site was technically guilty of direct copyright infringement, and that the defendants are guilty of contributing to infringement. After all, he claimed, a user's computer makes a copy of the images viewed, and when the images are illegal, the copy is illegal. In his court filings, Myers said that such copying by an end user was a "fair use" -- thus immunizing the average Web surfer from such a lawsuit. But the question has not been answered by a federal appellate court, which would set a powerful precedent. "The case law is not clear on the liability of end users for copyright infringement," said Mark Lemley, a visiting professor at Berkeley's Boalt Hall School of Law and a professor at the University of Texas law school, adding that "fair use" was a strong argument. "The consequences of holding an end user liable for copyright infringement would be disturbing for the Net... It might deter surfing. It might also give some unscrupulous groups the power to suppress speech or critics." Jeffrey R. Kuester, an intellectual property lawyer with Thomas, Kayden, Horstemeyer & Risley in Atlanta, said he was glad the Bernstein case was withdrawn. He said he believes there should be freedom to link on the Net, a right that is protected by the First Amendment. He added, however, that there might be exceptions to the rule if there was strong evidence that a Web site, in bad faith, linked to another site in a knowing effort to evade copyright law -- evidence that he thought was lacking in the Bernstein case. The best solution, said Kuester, is for the injured party to go after the pirate site, rather than the linking sites. "The wrongdoer here is the pirate site," he said. There should be international treaties and conventions to punish people for posting copyright-infringing material, he said. For his part, Bernstein agreed that linking on the Net should be encouraged. But he said he will continue his crusade for "responsible linking" in the court of public opinion via magazine articles in the near future. "I didn't want to be a poster boy for hurting the Internet or for trying to limit the freewheeling spirt of the Net," he said, referring to his decision on Monday to withdraw his lawsuit. "But a couple of companies were trying to get away with murder." Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From kurt Sun Sep 27 13:01:26 1998 From: kurt (Kurt Cockrum) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 13:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy Message-ID: <199809272001.NAA09133@scn.org> Here's my 2-cents worth on the MUA-causing-users-to-depart controversy. How soon can you pay me my 2 cents? :) SCN's mission, AFAIR (as far as I recall) was to provide minimal basic internet services to those who for various reasons couldn't affort to get them from existing commercial offerings, i. e. "have-nots". Early on in the discussions of SCN people talked about significant portions of the populace being left out of access, as commercial interests scrambled for the most lucrative parts of new markets, leaving the rest out in the cold. This "left-out" sector was identified as the poor and disenfranchised of various kinds, social-change activists and organizations, non-profits, neighborhood & grassroots groups, minorities (maybe even misfits :), and others, I think, chiefly and variously self-identified. As far as I know, we are carrying this out. I'm sure there are those who are dissatisfied, but I would imagine that that ought to be more substantive than dissatisfaction with the user interface of a particular Mail User Agent. As long as a keyboard mediates access to things like e-mail, there isn't an application in the land that anybody can say honestly is "easy to use", but if one sticks with it, one can get pretty fluent. Think about it. Even something as simple as driving a stick-shift automobile was hard the first time around, for those of use old enough to remember. And there were only 5 "keys": clutch, brake, accelerator, steering wheel and gear-shift :) Let's not forget that it takes years and years to learn to use natural languages effectively, and that's even with the hardware assist Chomsky says is built-in (with, sadly, build-in expiration; adults never *do* do it well). Frankly, the people who think StupidLandUSA provides more attractive services than SCN are welcome to go there, and we ought to even give them good recommendations as the sort of users every ISP dreams of :) What! you say I owe you 2 cents! whaddaya mean! :) --kurt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Sun Sep 27 13:44:06 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 13:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A two-cent fine for Kurt. In-Reply-To: <199809272001.NAA09133@scn.org> Message-ID: Kurt, We're fining you two-cents for your two-cent input. (-: (We waived an additional two-cent fine for your using "whomever" in the subjective position ....) I don't think keyboard versus mouse is necessarily the element that makes a program user friendly or not. (I still prefer DOS WordPerfect 5.1, as I stated). The difficulty with both Pine and Freeport (more with Pine) is the convoluted nature of the setup and the inconsistency of commands. E.g., having to get out of Pine to see new mail. E.g. having to get out of Pine and Freeport e-mail to get to the work directory (though someone came up with a way to fool the system). E.g. Not having a help index so a newbie can search for specific help. Etc., Etc. E.g. the fact that commands mean different things in different screens (^t, ^r, ^j, for example). Of course one can get used to almost anything. But one CANNOT teach almost anything equally easily. Kurt assumes we are reaching the goal of reaching the have nots. ON what does he base that? If I say we are reaching only 10%, how do we know which of us is correct? Our most recent statistic says taht only 50% stay with SCN for 6 months. Several, of not all, of the board members have other e-mail accounts. This doesn't mean that the only option is to dump Pine and Freeport. But it does mean that we have to consider replacing them, or, or, or, improve the instruction effort. Kurt, your next SCNA dues will be assessed at $25.02. (-: Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Kurt Cockrum wrote: > Here's my 2-cents worth on the MUA-causing-users-to-depart > controversy. How soon can you pay me my 2 cents? :) > > SCN's mission, AFAIR (as far as I recall) was to provide minimal > basic internet services to those who for various reasons couldn't > affort to get them from existing commercial offerings, i. e. "have-nots". > > Early on in the discussions of SCN people talked about significant > portions of the populace being left out of access, as commercial > interests scrambled for the most lucrative parts of new markets, > leaving the rest out in the cold. > > This "left-out" sector was identified as the poor and disenfranchised > of various kinds, social-change activists and organizations, non-profits, > neighborhood & grassroots groups, minorities (maybe even misfits :), > and others, I think, chiefly and variously self-identified. > > As far as I know, we are carrying this out. I'm sure there are those > who are dissatisfied, but I would imagine that that ought to be more > substantive than dissatisfaction with the user interface of a particular > Mail User Agent. > > As long as a keyboard mediates access to things like > e-mail, there isn't an application in the land that anybody can say > honestly is "easy to use", but if one sticks with it, one can get > pretty fluent. Think about it. Even something as simple > as driving a stick-shift automobile was hard the first time around, > for those of use old enough to remember. And there were only 5 "keys": > clutch, brake, accelerator, steering wheel and gear-shift :) > > Let's not forget that it takes years and years to learn to use > natural languages effectively, and that's even with the hardware > assist Chomsky says is built-in (with, sadly, build-in expiration; > adults never *do* do it well). > > Frankly, the people who think StupidLandUSA provides more attractive > services than SCN are welcome to go there, and we ought to even give > them good recommendations as the sort of users every ISP dreams of :) > > What! you say I owe you 2 cents! whaddaya mean! :) > --kurt > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From steve at advocate.net Mon Sep 28 09:05:56 1998 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 08:05:56 -0800 Subject: Linux Message-ID: <199809281515.IAA03483@scn.org> Linux Leaps Ahead Jesse Berst Editorial Director ZDNet AnchorDesk 9/28/98 Okay, I admit it. Linux could be gaining momentum faster than I expected. I've always said that Linux could become a serious challenger to Microsoft's Windows NT. This summer, I laid out the three steps necessary to make that happen. But I was skeptical those steps would happen in time. Now it looks like Linux will get at least part of what it needs this very week. Here's what's going on. Validation from Microsoft. Last week, in a filing to the Security and Exchange Commission, Microsoft emphasized what its executives had admitted in recent interviews. It now views Linux as serious competition to Windows NT. A better interface. Today, Caldera ships Open Linux 1.3. The $59 shrinkwrap upgrade includes a graphical interface that resembles Windows. Big-name, big-money backers. Tomorrow, Intel and Netscape will announce their investment in Linux distributor Red Hat. Two venture capital firms are also putting money into the North Carolina company. The deals have important implications: "Respectability" and credibility thanks to validation from two of the industry's powerhouses. The financial resources to let Red Hat create serious enterprise versions and add-ons. The possible emergence of a de facto "favorite" version of Linux. Further estrangement between Intel and Microsoft due to Intel's support of a rival OS. Now the Linux alliance needs to build on this momentum by 1) rallying around a single graphical interface and 2) persuading major software vendors to build Linux versions. If they can do that, they will build the all-important perception of success that could propel Linux into the mainstream. In a "winner-takes-almost-all" market like this one, perception is reality. If customers think a product is going to become the standard, they will buy it. And if they buy it, it becomes the winner. Copyright (c) 1998 ZDNet * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Mon Sep 28 08:23:02 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 08:23:02 -0700 Subject: Pine controversy Message-ID: <01BDEAB9.364BD270.jmabel@saltmine.com> I don't think anyone is suggesting dropping suport for Pine. The issue is that as Windows becomes more dominant, using Pine from within telnet or a dialup to SCN is not a great solution. In particular, the fact that you can't reasonably cut and paste from documents you may have on your own machine is very limiting. Secondarily, if you are used to a Windows interface, Pine is much harder to learn than another program along principles you already know. Other users are interested in an offline mail reader, another different solution. Pine is good for what it is, but it is not meeting all of the valid email needs out there, and we should be teaching people about the range of options and doing our best to help them towards an option that suits their needs. -----Original Message----- From: Kurt Cockrum [SMTP:kurt at scn.org] Sent: Sunday, September 27, 1998 1:01 PM To: scn at scn.org Subject: Pine controversy Here's my 2-cents worth on the MUA-causing-users-to-depart controversy. How soon can you pay me my 2 cents? :) SCN's mission, AFAIR (as far as I recall) was to provide minimal basic internet services to those who for various reasons couldn't affort to get them from existing commercial offerings, i. e. "have-nots". Early on in the discussions of SCN people talked about significant portions of the populace being left out of access, as commercial interests scrambled for the most lucrative parts of new markets, leaving the rest out in the cold. This "left-out" sector was identified as the poor and disenfranchised of various kinds, social-change activists and organizations, non-profits, neighborhood & grassroots groups, minorities (maybe even misfits :), and others, I think, chiefly and variously self-identified. As far as I know, we are carrying this out. I'm sure there are those who are dissatisfied, but I would imagine that that ought to be more substantive than dissatisfaction with the user interface of a particular Mail User Agent. As long as a keyboard mediates access to things like e-mail, there isn't an application in the land that anybody can say honestly is "easy to use", but if one sticks with it, one can get pretty fluent. Think about it. Even something as simple as driving a stick-shift automobile was hard the first time around, for those of use old enough to remember. And there were only 5 "keys": clutch, brake, accelerator, steering wheel and gear-shift :) Let's not forget that it takes years and years to learn to use natural languages effectively, and that's even with the hardware assist Chomsky says is built-in (with, sadly, build-in expiration; adults never *do* do it well). Frankly, the people who think StupidLandUSA provides more attractive services than SCN are welcome to go there, and we ought to even give them good recommendations as the sort of users every ISP dreams of :) What! you say I owe you 2 cents! whaddaya mean! :) --kurt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From ljbeedle at scn.org Mon Sep 28 08:41:17 1998 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 08:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: <01BDEAB9.364BD270.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: My two cents since this is going on forever. I don't have a problem with PINE. Use it quite nicely. Cut and paste just fine and even add attachments sometimes. A little more work than some other browers and IP's to add attachments but it works. And it works no matter what kind of computer you have, which I thought was our goal. If our goal is to help windows people then guess I am in the wrong place. Lois The gene pool could use a little chlorine. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Mon Sep 28 08:42:23 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 08:42:23 -0700 Subject: Pine controversy Message-ID: <01BDEABB.EA937C40.jmabel@saltmine.com> Our goal is certainly not _exclusively_ to help Windows people, but that is getting to mean 1) users at the public library 2) 90% of anyone who has a personal computer. If those don't intersect with whom we are trying to support, I'm ready to resign. -----Original Message----- From: Lois Beedle [SMTP:ljbeedle at scn.org] Sent: Monday, September 28, 1998 8:41 AM To: Joe Mabel Cc: 'Kurt Cockrum'; scn at scn.org Subject: RE: Pine controversy My two cents since this is going on forever. I don't have a problem with PINE. Use it quite nicely. Cut and paste just fine and even add attachments sometimes. A little more work than some other browers and IP's to add attachments but it works. And it works no matter what kind of computer you have, which I thought was our goal. If our goal is to help windows people then guess I am in the wrong place. Lois The gene pool could use a little chlorine. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From starsrus at scn.org Mon Sep 28 13:26:37 1998 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A two-cent fine for Kurt. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > I don't think keyboard versus mouse is necessarily the element that makes > a program user friendly or not. (I still prefer DOS WordPerfect 5.1, as I > stated). > > The difficulty with both Pine and Freeport (more with Pine) is the > convoluted nature of the setup and the inconsistency of commands. I think Rich is right on the mark here --- > E.g., > having to get out of Pine to see new mail. BUT - this may not necessarily be a Pine feature? But something to do with the way Pine interacts with our mail server? Anybody know? > E.g. having to get out of Pine > and Freeport e-mail to get to the work directory (though someone came up > with a way to fool the system). AND - whaa? You get to the work directory automatically with standard Freeport accounts when you want to insert a text file into an email document. (the old Ctrl-R, Ctrl-T sequence of Pico editor for either email program). Or is Rich saying he wants to "shell out" to the work directory from either mail program to work with the files - rename, delete, copy, etc? > E.g. Not having a help index so a newbie > can search for specific help. Etc., Etc. > On the mark, I think, if we are talking about Freeport - and the help that is available is frequently oudated. As for help in Pine - each page comes with a help screen reached with the Ctrl-G (Get Help) command featured in the same upper-left location in the menus at the bottom of the screen. What is so hard about that? > E.g. the fact that commands mean different things in different screens > (^t, ^r, ^j, for example). Agreed, this is unfortunate in Pine, but you are a bit limited when you have 26 letters to bind to lots of commands on multiple screens. However, maybe the email instructors could emphasize that users should refer frequently to the Ctrl-G help screens until they get familiar with the setup? > > Of course one can get used to almost anything. But one CANNOT teach > almost anything equally easily. No, but with some testing of what works and what doesn't on teaching something, it is possible to refine the teaching and present the information clearly to the students. > > Rich > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Ken Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From alboss at scn.org Mon Sep 28 15:27:00 1998 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:27:00 -0700 Subject: Which mail list? Message-ID: <36100D34.7B17159E@scn.org> Hi, folks. I've got a quick request to make: can the various SCN listowners chime in to help us figure out the best list for the various conversations we've been having? For example, the text-vs.-graphical e-mail question is huge, and mabye the scn list is a good place to discuss it. However, when we get into the nuances of how the various e-mail programs work, is that a more detailed level of information than our general SCN interest list might warrant? If so, where does the conversation go? Is the e-mail training list a subset of the services list, or do we need to send to both lists to reach everyone? I'm guessing that general guiding concepts and debates (are we a dinosaur? should we have fees for some things? is it a floor wax or a dessert topping?) that reach across all of SCN are best discussed on the SCN list. We've been talking a lot about e-mail, for example--the ultimate decision will have to take into account what our machines will handle (hardware/software) and what our users will accept (services), though we need to include those folks with special insight (e-mail training and help) while considering that the outcome will affect all of us (scn). Where the heck should discussions like this be taking place, then? (Can you guess that I've been getting a zillion cc's of everything?) I gave the Web site a quick glance but didn't see anything under "Volunteers" that gives the intro statements from all the lists--what the list is for, etc. If this information isn't already online, can we put it there? (Yes, I do save the intro files when I'm added to a list, but being an SCN fossil I'm on a lot of lists that were around before we had intro files--including services, scn, etc.) Happy Monday to all, Al * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb156 at scn.org Mon Sep 28 16:23:58 1998 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 16:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Which mail list? In-Reply-To: <36100D34.7B17159E@scn.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Al Boss wrote: > Hi, folks. I've got a quick request to make: can the various SCN > listowners chime in to help us figure out the best list for the various > conversations we've been having? > > Is the e-mail training list a subset of the services list, or do we need > to send to both lists to reach everyone? Hi Al, Thanks for your interest and action in reducing the number of unnecessary cross-postings. The info file for em-trng is clear in asking that content be limited to class issues. I would very much appreciate it if _all_ discussion topics be directed elsewhere. -Andrew > This mailing list is for the e-mail class trainers to discuss the class > and its content, and to keep informed of schedules, developments, etc. > > This is a 'closed' mailing list, in that only e-mail class trainers may > subscribe, and only subscribers may contribute. (Let us know if you > will be contributing from a different address.) > > Questions _about_ this mailing list should be sent to the list owner, > the SCN Help Desk ('help at scn.org'). ,_____,_____, 6 __ _ User: bb156 T\ :. .^\,_/_\_|_ /_| _/_ _ )__/'_ _ ' _ Domain: scn.org I ^T=====;=====T /| ( |/)(// (-((/ / //(/(///)_) Seattle, WA I I _|_| _/_/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Mon Sep 28 17:38:08 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I do look at this issue from the point of teaching newbies. So I push EITHER (a) a more user friendly program OR (b) more teachers of PINE. HOWEVER, Lois makes a good point: you can use Pine from any computer. Soooo, as we are looking at options, that universality is good to keep in mind. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Still thinking. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Lois Beedle wrote: > My two cents since this is going on forever. I don't have a problem with > PINE. Use it quite nicely. Cut and paste just fine and even add > attachments sometimes. A little more work than some other browers and > IP's to add attachments but it works. And it works no matter what kind of > computer you have, which I thought was our goal. If our goal is to help > windows people then guess I am in the wrong place. > Lois > > The gene pool could use a little chlorine. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Mon Sep 28 17:43:01 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: <01BDEABB.EA937C40.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: Joe, Please don't mention resigning or such words. Your reasoned considerations have to remain in SCN. Besides, wse are not near a decision point yet. First, SCN has to physically meet to decide on its priorities. That will tell us if e-mail is one of them and where that falls on the list. Then, after kicking this around, we all will need to physically meet and come up with a list of options, steps to implement each, etc. So stay in the pack. Perhaps we should begin to float SCN meeting dates and get taht first step under way. Keep on keepin' on. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > Our goal is certainly not _exclusively_ to help Windows people, but that is getting to mean > 1) users at the public library > 2) 90% of anyone who has a personal computer. > > If those don't intersect with whom we are trying to support, I'm ready to resign. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lois Beedle [SMTP:ljbeedle at scn.org] > Sent: Monday, September 28, 1998 8:41 AM > To: Joe Mabel > Cc: 'Kurt Cockrum'; scn at scn.org > Subject: RE: Pine controversy > > My two cents since this is going on forever. I don't have a problem with > PINE. Use it quite nicely. Cut and paste just fine and even add > attachments sometimes. A little more work than some other browers and > IP's to add attachments but it works. And it works no matter what kind of > computer you have, which I thought was our goal. If our goal is to help > windows people then guess I am in the wrong place. > Lois > > The gene pool could use a little chlorine. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Mon Sep 28 17:48:17 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: <01BDEABB.EA937C40.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: Joe is correct: Just because the Great Satan (Microsoft) is nearly omnipresent, we are not guilty of being a Microsoft acholyte organization because we want a user-friendly system. Look at it from the point of view of the user: What works for him/her? Perhaps, just as we have Freeport e-mail AND Pine e-mail, perhaps we can have Freeport & Pine, AND a user-friendly program. If the user-friendly one can be text, that is fine. If not, then we should look at graphical ones. The ease with which we old-timers used Pine is not the way to measure user-friendliness. Later, rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > Our goal is certainly not _exclusively_ to help Windows people, but that is getting to mean > 1) users at the public library > 2) 90% of anyone who has a personal computer. > > If those don't intersect with whom we are trying to support, I'm ready to resign. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lois Beedle [SMTP:ljbeedle at scn.org] > Sent: Monday, September 28, 1998 8:41 AM > To: Joe Mabel > Cc: 'Kurt Cockrum'; scn at scn.org > Subject: RE: Pine controversy > > My two cents since this is going on forever. I don't have a problem with > PINE. Use it quite nicely. Cut and paste just fine and even add > attachments sometimes. A little more work than some other browers and > IP's to add attachments but it works. And it works no matter what kind of > computer you have, which I thought was our goal. If our goal is to help > windows people then guess I am in the wrong place. > Lois > > The gene pool could use a little chlorine. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Mon Sep 28 17:52:58 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Which mail list? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey, y'all! Just hit the "D" key. Problem solved. Now let's deal with important stuff! Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Andrew Higgins wrote: > > > On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Al Boss wrote: > > > Hi, folks. I've got a quick request to make: can the various SCN > > listowners chime in to help us figure out the best list for the various > > conversations we've been having? > > > > Is the e-mail training list a subset of the services list, or do we need > > to send to both lists to reach everyone? > > Hi Al, > > Thanks for your interest and action in reducing the number of unnecessary > cross-postings. The info file for em-trng is clear in asking that content > be limited to class issues. I would very much appreciate it if _all_ > discussion topics be directed elsewhere. > > -Andrew > > > > This mailing list is for the e-mail class trainers to discuss the class > > and its content, and to keep informed of schedules, developments, etc. > > > > This is a 'closed' mailing list, in that only e-mail class trainers may > > subscribe, and only subscribers may contribute. (Let us know if you > > will be contributing from a different address.) > > > > Questions _about_ this mailing list should be sent to the list owner, > > the SCN Help Desk ('help at scn.org'). > > > ,_____,_____, 6 __ _ User: bb156 > T\ :. .^\,_/_\_|_ /_| _/_ _ )__/'_ _ ' _ Domain: scn.org > I ^T=====;=====T /| ( |/)(// (-((/ / //(/(///)_) Seattle, WA > I I _|_| _/_/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From starsrus at scn.org Mon Sep 28 18:05:32 1998 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: [snip] > > Perhaps, just as we have Freeport e-mail AND Pine e-mail, perhaps we can > have Freeport & Pine, AND a user-friendly program. If the user-friendly > one can be text, that is fine. If not, then we should look at graphical > ones. Bear in mind though, that the minute we start talking about a user-friendly graphical program for email, *** we are talking about a program running on the USER'S machine, NOT on SCN ***. And this is especially true if we have the "magic" SLIP/PPP setup that is supposed to fix all the access problems. So - what do we support? One program? Several? Only Win 95/98? Or do we admit that there are Mac users in the world? (Maybe even Linux users?). Shareware/Freeware/Commercial porgram? How do we support that program? Just let users scramble and install whatever email program they have available? Do we provide a detailed configuration package that they download and install, with lots of automated help? If so, who sets up the specific SCN interface/configuration package? All I am saying is, if we do decide to support a user friendly graphical email package, that is NOT the solution and end of our problems. It is more likely to be the beginning of other problems that we have to deal with! Ken ______________________________________________________________________ > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Mon Sep 28 23:15:40 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Which mail list? In-Reply-To: <36100D34.7B17159E@scn.org> Message-ID: A more studied response to Al's message about location of discussion. 1. Didn't someone suggest getting an intern to research e-mail (scn) satisfaction? That should come first before we decide where the subsequent discussion should take place. 2. While it's clear that some folks don't like getting multiple (or marginally relevant) e-mails, I do think that this is a relatively small problem in the grand scheme of things. So I hope we do not devote huge amounts of effort to solving the "problem." Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Mon Sep 28 23:27:33 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I hate it when Ken makes a good point! (-: I think our SCN mission should decide this. That's why we need an organizational convocation orient ourselves. If e-mail is a secondary concern (behind what???), then we should focus our efforts on the primary concern(s). However, if e-mail is SCN's big goal, then we have to look at e-mail from the user's point of view. Can we locate an e-mail program that is both user friendly and text based? We need to continue this discussion, at least until we get our main mission clarified. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Mon Sep 28 23:15:40 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Which mail list? In-Reply-To: <36100D34.7B17159E@scn.org> Message-ID: A more studied response to Al's message about location of discussion. 1. Didn't someone suggest getting an intern to research e-mail (scn) satisfaction? That should come first before we decide where the subsequent discussion should take place. 2. While it's clear that some folks don't like getting multiple (or marginally relevant) e-mails, I do think that this is a relatively small problem in the grand scheme of things. So I hope we do not devote huge amounts of effort to solving the "problem." Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Tue Sep 29 08:07:47 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:07:47 -0700 Subject: Pine controversy Message-ID: <01BDEB80.3FABD910.jmabel@saltmine.com> That's all well & good, but if we say we don't give a damn about library users, we don't give a damn about anyone with access to Windows, in my view, at that point we become a hobbyist organization, and this isn't my hobby. -----Original Message----- From: Rich Littleton [SMTP:be718 at scn.org] Sent: Monday, September 28, 1998 5:43 PM To: Joe Mabel Cc: 'Lois Beedle'; 'Kurt Cockrum'; scn at scn.org Subject: RE: Pine controversy Joe, Please don't mention resigning or such words. Your reasoned considerations have to remain in SCN. Besides, wse are not near a decision point yet. First, SCN has to physically meet to decide on its priorities. That will tell us if e-mail is one of them and where that falls on the list. Then, after kicking this around, we all will need to physically meet and come up with a list of options, steps to implement each, etc. So stay in the pack. Perhaps we should begin to float SCN meeting dates and get taht first step under way. Keep on keepin' on. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > Our goal is certainly not _exclusively_ to help Windows people, but that is getting to mean > 1) users at the public library > 2) 90% of anyone who has a personal computer. > > If those don't intersect with whom we are trying to support, I'm ready to resign. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lois Beedle [SMTP:ljbeedle at scn.org] > Sent: Monday, September 28, 1998 8:41 AM > To: Joe Mabel > Cc: 'Kurt Cockrum'; scn at scn.org > Subject: RE: Pine controversy > > My two cents since this is going on forever. I don't have a problem with > PINE. Use it quite nicely. Cut and paste just fine and even add > attachments sometimes. A little more work than some other browers and > IP's to add attachments but it works. And it works no matter what kind of > computer you have, which I thought was our goal. If our goal is to help > windows people then guess I am in the wrong place. > Lois > > The gene pool could use a little chlorine. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From starsrus at scn.org Tue Sep 29 08:33:36 1998 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: <01BDEB80.3FABD910.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > That's all well & good, but if we say we don't give a damn about library > users, we don't give a damn about anyone with access to Windows, in my > view, at that point we become a hobbyist organization, and this isn't my > hobby. > OK, so we will have a bunch of library computers running Windows 98 and using IE or Netscape for a web based access to their services. Does that mean we set up SCN email so it can use the email features of whatever browser the library uses? Or do we try to get the library to install some particular dedicated email program on all their machines? And how do users and visitors access other services on SCN, using the library environment? Ken Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Tue Sep 29 08:39:17 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:39:17 -0700 Subject: Pine controversy Message-ID: <01BDEB84.A58C07B0.jmabel@saltmine.com> IMHO, if the library settles on one recommended way to get email, we support it. If they don't, we pick one Windows-based way that is on their machines and we support it. As for other services, which are we concerned with? Increasingly, SCN is a website, and can be accessed just fine from anywhere. If they are ftp'ing, the Windows approach to ftp is pretty decent. We probably should be teaching how to telnet to SCN for those who care. Do many of our users use SCN for anything other than email and Web access? If so, do we have any idea what? -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Applegate [SMTP:starsrus at scn.org] Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 8:34 AM To: Joe Mabel Cc: 'Rich Littleton'; 'Lois Beedle'; 'Kurt Cockrum'; scn at scn.org Subject: RE: Pine controversy On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > That's all well & good, but if we say we don't give a damn about library > users, we don't give a damn about anyone with access to Windows, in my > view, at that point we become a hobbyist organization, and this isn't my > hobby. > OK, so we will have a bunch of library computers running Windows 98 and using IE or Netscape for a web based access to their services. Does that mean we set up SCN email so it can use the email features of whatever browser the library uses? Or do we try to get the library to install some particular dedicated email program on all their machines? And how do users and visitors access other services on SCN, using the library environment? Ken Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Tue Sep 29 09:47:02 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > OK, so we will have a bunch of library computers running Windows 98 and > using IE or Netscape for a web based access to their services. Does that > mean we set up SCN email so it can use the email features of whatever > browser the library uses? Ken, The POP mail server has been working well for about a year or so now (or maybe longer, but I hadn't used it before then). Any mail program that uses the POP3 and SMTP protocols will work with it. This includes, for example, Netscape Mail as well as standalone programs like Pegasus and Eudora. > Or do we try to get the library to install some particular > dedicated email program on all their machines? They can use whatever they like, as long as it adheres to the POP3 and SMTP standards. A user in Siberia could use a Cyrillic mail program to check his mail, as long as it communicated with SCN's server using those protocols. > And how do users and visitors access other services on SCN, using the > library environment? Usenet newsreaders are built into the popular browsers. As yet, though, SCN's news server is unreachable by anything other than the FreePort newsreader and the "readnews" read-only CGI script. The number of newsgroups available is small, which is something that many users would like to see improved. That's not possible with the old, slow news machine. Does anyone know what the plans are for the new SCN3 news server that someone was working on last year? The FTP server is a non-service, except for Information Providers. So that's not applicable, at least until Hardware/Software figures out how offer FTP uploads to users in general. This is one of the most requested services among users, and has been for several years. But FTPing files to SCN with WS_FTP from SPL lab computers has worked well for about two and a half years now for IPs. What other services would they be accessing? There's no chat or anything like that. Mail, Usenet, FTP. End of list. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From alboss at scn.org Tue Sep 29 10:42:01 1998 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:42:01 -0700 Subject: Pine controversy References: Message-ID: <36111BE9.72EB44BB@scn.org> Maybe we're looking at the wrong thing. Our model has always been (correctly, I think) mostly based around server-side solutions. Whether we like its interface or not, SCN is accessible via anything from a TRS-80 to a Cray. Yet, this "user-friendly e-mail" discussion is mostly focusing on client-side solutions. (I still question the efficacy of defining "user-friendly" without a representative sampling of the users, but that's another discussion.) What would it take to instead adopt a Web-based e-mail model option for SCN? These other guys all took our idea of free e-mail, so why don't we return the favor by exploring inventing our own version of their idea? * Yes, it'd be a programming challenge. We have smart people, though; I'd bet we can do it if we decide it's a priority. * No, the users and the libraries wouldn't have to configure anything special on their computers, like POP settings, etc. * Yes, it'd be resource-intensive. Any worse than the other long-term options we've discussed (PPP, mostly)? Any easier to achieve? Since system load would be limited to those who already have a GUI, I'd think it would by definition hit our servers less than offering SLIP/PPP. Which brings us to... * No, it wouldn't give a graphical interface to people who don't already have a graphical interface. (That is, if you had no SLIP/PPP or greater connection, you'd still have text-only access.) But that's another discussion, too. I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason why this is a really bad idea. Anyone want to torpedo it quickly so we can get back to the e-mail holy wars? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Tue Sep 29 11:01:42 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:01:42 -0700 Subject: Pine controversy Message-ID: <01BDEB98.8AF59AB0.jmabel@saltmine.com> I'll chime in again. 1) Pine is an OK server-side solution. People who are comfortable with a text interface aren't going to find Pine hard. Let's not stop supporting Pine. 2) Windows users are now very numerous. Pine is not a very friendly way for them to get thier mail. One or another sort of POP connection solution probably is. We should let people know they can do this with an SCN email account. We should ask the library what their plans are for this as they go to Windows. We should certainly try to work with them on where they are going. If where they are going constitutes a decent solution for Windows users in general, life is prettysimple: add the library's solution to our training. However, their solution may not be very typical because they resumably dont want people's email ending up stored on a particular library workstation, whereas the average user working from home wants their own disk as their mail repository. -----Original Message----- From: Al Boss [SMTP:alboss at scn.org] Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 10:42 AM To: scn at scn.org Subject: Re: Pine controversy Maybe we're looking at the wrong thing. Our model has always been (correctly, I think) mostly based around server-side solutions. Whether we like its interface or not, SCN is accessible via anything from a TRS-80 to a Cray. Yet, this "user-friendly e-mail" discussion is mostly focusing on client-side solutions. (I still question the efficacy of defining "user-friendly" without a representative sampling of the users, but that's another discussion.) What would it take to instead adopt a Web-based e-mail model option for SCN? These other guys all took our idea of free e-mail, so why don't we return the favor by exploring inventing our own version of their idea? * Yes, it'd be a programming challenge. We have smart people, though; I'd bet we can do it if we decide it's a priority. * No, the users and the libraries wouldn't have to configure anything special on their computers, like POP settings, etc. * Yes, it'd be resource-intensive. Any worse than the other long-term options we've discussed (PPP, mostly)? Any easier to achieve? Since system load would be limited to those who already have a GUI, I'd think it would by definition hit our servers less than offering SLIP/PPP. Which brings us to... * No, it wouldn't give a graphical interface to people who don't already have a graphical interface. (That is, if you had no SLIP/PPP or greater connection, you'd still have text-only access.) But that's another discussion, too. I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason why this is a really bad idea. Anyone want to torpedo it quickly so we can get back to the e-mail holy wars? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Tue Sep 29 11:47:11 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: <36111BE9.72EB44BB@scn.org> Message-ID: > What would it take to instead adopt a Web-based e-mail model > option for SCN? Al, For examples of how some Web-based e-mail services work, see http://www.scn.org/guide/email.html > * Yes, it'd be a programming challenge. We have smart people, > though; I'd bet we can do it if we decide it's a priority. Keep in mind that it took SCN two years to make a standard canned e-mail program (Pine) work on SCN. When Lynx needed a patch applied to fix a security hole, this took several months, and the users complained that many of Lynx's features were disabled in the meantime. It has taken over a year now to get a standard canned Usenet server program running on SCN3, and it still isn't ready. For well over two years now, SCN hasn't been able to install a canned FTP server program that everyone can use. From your perch over there on the planet Zongo-Bongo, can you describe in more detail exactly how SCN would go about impersonating a software development company? I'm listening, and wearing my funny hat. SCN's only real option is to install standard, well supported software that needs an absolute minimum of the very few really expert SCN volunteers' time to support it. Only if such software is available in a well tested, highly secure, bug free version that has been pounded on by many other sites, might installing it on SCN be at all practical. Rod * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Tue Sep 29 12:41:08 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ken raises good points to be resolved. I'd like to see SCN be able to be both user friendly, AND serve all its functions. Is there a text e-mail that is this? Rod said that it would be functionally not possible to build our own from scratch. Ken, what is out there in cyberspace in the e-mail category that might solve all concerns? Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Kenneth Applegate wrote: > On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > That's all well & good, but if we say we don't give a damn about library > > users, we don't give a damn about anyone with access to Windows, in my > > view, at that point we become a hobbyist organization, and this isn't my > > hobby. > > > > OK, so we will have a bunch of library computers running Windows 98 and > using IE or Netscape for a web based access to their services. Does that > mean we set up SCN email so it can use the email features of whatever > browser the library uses? Or do we try to get the library to install some > particular dedicated email program on all their machines? > > And how do users and visitors access other services on SCN, using the > library environment? > > Ken > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? > By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From be718 at scn.org Tue Sep 29 13:12:24 1998 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: <36111BE9.72EB44BB@scn.org> Message-ID: This is an example of the wisdom for which Al is correctly known. If a major mission of SCN is e-mail (seems proper to me), the it is worth the effort. Good show, Al. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Al Boss wrote: > Maybe we're looking at the wrong thing. > > Our model has always been (correctly, I think) mostly based around > server-side solutions. Whether we like its interface or not, SCN is > accessible via anything from a TRS-80 to a Cray. Yet, this > "user-friendly e-mail" discussion is mostly focusing on client-side > solutions. (I still question the efficacy of defining "user-friendly" > without a representative sampling of the users, but that's another > discussion.) > > What would it take to instead adopt a Web-based e-mail model option for > SCN? These other guys all took our idea of free e-mail, so why don't we > return the favor by exploring inventing our own version of their idea? > > * Yes, it'd be a programming challenge. We have smart people, though; > I'd bet we can do it if we decide it's a priority. > * No, the users and the libraries wouldn't have to configure anything > special on their computers, like POP settings, etc. > * Yes, it'd be resource-intensive. Any worse than the other long-term > options we've discussed (PPP, mostly)? Any easier to achieve? Since > system load would be limited to those who already have a GUI, I'd think > it would by definition hit our servers less than offering SLIP/PPP. > Which brings us to... > * No, it wouldn't give a graphical interface to people who don't already > have a graphical interface. (That is, if you had no SLIP/PPP or greater > connection, you'd still have text-only access.) But that's another > discussion, too. > > I'm sure there's a perfectly good reason why this is a really bad idea. > Anyone want to torpedo it quickly so we can get back to the e-mail holy > wars? > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From alboss at scn.org Tue Sep 29 16:47:55 1998 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:47:55 -0700 Subject: Pine controversy References: Message-ID: <361171AB.3709E8E5@scn.org> On my planet Zongo-Bongo, we also have concepts called "manners" and "tact". On the other hand, thank you for proving by example my statement that we have smart people; you are once again way ahead of me. The remote e-mail readers (on the page you were thoughtful enough to point out) claim they are configurable. This would seem to allow for an SCN-branded Web interface to our existing mail system. Not an ideal solution (slow and outside our control) but still an option I hadn't seen discussed before. I would have thought that the SCN Web-based outgoing mail function would be run from our own CGI script in tandem with sendmail, not too different than the well-functioning formmail script with which you're well-acquainted. I, however, am no expert. You are one of the most knowledgeable and solution-oriented people we're lucky enough to have working for us. If you say it's impossible, or at least an idea worthy of ridicule, then I'll take your word for it. Consider the suggestion withdrawn. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From starsrus at scn.org Tue Sep 29 17:28:59 1998 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 17:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Rich Littleton wrote: > > Ken raises good points to be resolved. I'd like to see SCN be able to be > both user friendly, AND serve all its functions. > > Is there a text e-mail that is this? > > Rod said that it would be functionally not possible to build our own from > scratch. > > Ken, what is out there in cyberspace in the e-mail category that might > solve all concerns? > Don't jump on me about "user-friendly" on this one, but there IS a text-based email program available for PC's. It's called -- (drum roll) -- PC-Pine. I haven't used it for awhile, and back then it was strictly DOS-based, but ran OK in a DOS Window on Win 3.1. There has also been some later development of a Windows version, which I understand still looks pretty text based. Anyway, the versions I used worked pretty well and in much the same way as server based Pine, the only difference being that when you accessed your PC-Pine INBOX, it connected to the network and went off to grab the contents of your server INBOX [or any other mail folder you specified on your server account]. PC Pine is a U of Washington creation, like Pine, and probably would be available to a non-profit organization. UW is including PC-Pine as the email program in their UWICK (UW Internet Connectivity Kit) for this fall quarter. Since I work at the UW, I could get a copy of PC-Pine and set it up on a Win 95 machine in the research lab where I work, and do some testing in a real (even legit!) situation. SCN should also pay attention to the UWICK package itself. The current version is really slick. They package it on a CD, which you insert in your Windows or Mac drive, and it uses a wizzard to go through an absolutely painless 5 minute installation of networking and applications (telnet terminal, ws-ftp, pc-pine) for either dial-up or hardwired connections. The only thing you have to do is turn on your modem so it can get the right setup parameters. At the end, it has set up all the networking support so that when you launch any tcp/ip application, a dialer window comes up, pre-configured for the UW numbers. Click on the one you want, and everything else is automatic until the application starts. Some of our SCN people who have connections with the the UW Computing & Communications department (I don't!) should investigate what it would take and cost for SCN to get a customized version of UWICK (SCNICK?!) for setting up networking to SCN. Ken > Later, > > Rich > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ***** Unless stated otherwise, this message may be forwarded. ****** > > On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Kenneth Applegate wrote: > > > On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > > That's all well & good, but if we say we don't give a damn about library > > > users, we don't give a damn about anyone with access to Windows, in my > > > view, at that point we become a hobbyist organization, and this isn't my > > > hobby. > > > > > > > OK, so we will have a bunch of library computers running Windows 98 and > > using IE or Netscape for a web based access to their services. Does that > > mean we set up SCN email so it can use the email features of whatever > > browser the library uses? Or do we try to get the library to install some > > particular dedicated email program on all their machines? > > > > And how do users and visitors access other services on SCN, using the > > library environment? > > > > Ken > > > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? > > By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! > > > > > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From femme2 at scn.org Tue Sep 29 19:01:13 1998 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 19:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't it great how Rod always gets right to the heart of the matter! Now that I have quite SCN cold turkey, I've been trying to drum up excitement about online registration -- which has been kicked around for, uh, lotsa years now. A couple of questions... Does Speakeasy still charge a fee for Pine classes? And how come Speakeasy users were happy to shell out $$$$ to learn this extremely "difficult" program when we can't give it away? Has anyone actually USED one of the recently installed graphical interface terminals at the Library? Help on the 1st screen, pre-set Telnet to SCN just one click away, etc. etc. Much easier to use than the text-only terminals. And aren't all the user's work files stored on SCNA's computers, or have I missed a point? Quite likely. I also note that the new terminals are so popular that at Ballard, for example, they now have a sign-up sheet for ANY terminal -- partly because of the proliferation of folks signing up for Hotmail, etc. and spending hours meeting and arguing with their new cyberfriends. So SCNA is not the ONLY service impacting the system. And a final comment. None of this, to quote Hillary, amounts to a hill of beans if there is not board support. So why aren't all you opinionated folks running for the board where you can actually make a difference? There's lots of room there. Lorraine femme2 at scn.org On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Rod Clark wrote: > > What would it take to instead adopt a Web-based e-mail model > > option for SCN? > > Al, > > For examples of how some Web-based e-mail services work, see > > http://www.scn.org/guide/email.html > > > * Yes, it'd be a programming challenge. We have smart people, > > though; I'd bet we can do it if we decide it's a priority. > > Keep in mind that it took SCN two years to make a standard > canned e-mail program (Pine) work on SCN. When Lynx needed a > patch applied to fix a security hole, this took several months, > and the users complained that many of Lynx's features were > disabled in the meantime. It has taken over a year now to get a > standard canned Usenet server program running on SCN3, and it > still isn't ready. For well over two years now, SCN hasn't been > able to install a canned FTP server program that everyone can > use. > > From your perch over there on the planet Zongo-Bongo, can you > describe in more detail exactly how SCN would go about > impersonating a software development company? I'm listening, and > wearing my funny hat. > > SCN's only real option is to install standard, well supported > software that needs an absolute minimum of the very few really > expert SCN volunteers' time to support it. Only if such software > is available in a well tested, highly secure, bug free version > that has been pounded on by many other sites, might installing > it on SCN be at all practical. > > Rod > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Tue Sep 29 19:14:11 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 19:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: <361171AB.3709E8E5@scn.org> Message-ID: > I would have thought that the SCN Web-based outgoing mail > function would be run from our own CGI script in tandem with > sendmail, not too different than the well-functioning formmail > script with which you're well-acquainted. Al, The form.cgi and sendform.cgi scripts that SCN uses for e-mail forms processing through sendmail are familiar to me because I wrote them. But sending mail is the easy part, because for one thing it doesn't have to deal with any existing files with private user permissions. SCN is also messy because of Freeport. From what I understand, that's why it took the Hardware/Software people so long to get Pine working. The Freeport code was apparently so impenetrable that they finally just left it like it was, rather than trying to revise it to work with standard Pine. So the Pine and POP implementations were warped around to fit Freeport, instead of vice versa, with mixed results in the case of a few Pine functions. The thing that's most problematic about Web-based e-mail retrieval is that dealing with people's private files through CGI is harder than it sounds. For security reasons, CGI scripts typically run as some innocuous user ID like 'nobody', to avoid problems that could occur with a CGI script that would have access to any file in any user's account. That's what this kind of program would have to have, in order to manage the files in the users' accounts. Otherwise it would be read-only and the users' mail would continue to pile up indefinitely. Even then, such a program couldn't even read everyone's private mail files, let alone write and delete them, without having seriously more than the minimal permissions that CGI scripts running on SCN now have. This makes security critical with such an application. Then you have to take into account that the file locking and other aspects of the system aren't going to work right sometimes, no matter what it says in the documentation. So it's not easy to make something like this work as absolutely reliably as it would have to, and to be as secure as it would have to be, so that it would work 100% of the time under all sorts of anomalous conditions. That may be one reason why you see only a limited number of companies providing Web-based e-mail services like this to many other organizations. From what I hear, your planet is a wonderful place to visit except for the giant poisonous spiders and a few uncouth humanoid species roaming around. Well, take care. See you later. Rod * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From bb615 at scn.org Wed Sep 30 05:44:21 1998 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 05:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pine controversy In-Reply-To: <361171AB.3709E8E5@scn.org> Message-ID: > claim they are configurable. This would seem to allow for an > SCN-branded Web interface to our existing mail system. Not an > ideal solution (slow and outside our control) but still an > option I hadn't seen discussed before. Al, Have a look at these Web-based e-mail server products, and see what you think. Each of these could be installed on SCN. Caveat emptor. I quote from the documentation for a Web-based product called AtDot (which I have erased from the following list): "What's new in 1.8.5? Finally, we have mass deletion of messages. This is one that people have wanted for a while now. Also, there are the first attempts at making it easier to customize features on the server side. However, turning features on/off is untested and probably doesn't work right yet. In addition, session management has been enhanced to assign session id's that aren't as easily hacked, and stores session information in a less hackable fashion (older version used clear text in a flat database, very bad). If nothing else, you should upgrade for the last reason. What's new in 1.8.0? This release incorporates the bugfixes from 1.5.5, as well as various other security updates." You'd probably want something that's been running at a few thousand sites for a year or two with no significant problems. These are in alphabetical order, and I've looked only briefly at them. Did I say "caveat emptor" yet? AnyEMail http://netbula.com/anyemail/ Corporate Web Mail http://netwinsite.com/ Endymion MailMan http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ Net Roamer http://netroamer.com/support/docs/index.cgi VisualMail http://www.mintersoft.com/visualmail/ WebThing Mailer http://www.webthing.com/software/mail.html Rod * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From jmabel at saltmine.com Wed Sep 30 08:25:30 1998 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 08:25:30 -0700 Subject: Pine controversy Message-ID: <01BDEC4B.E32691E0.jmabel@saltmine.com> So under CGI on Unix, is there no equivalent of Microsoft NT's "impersonation token" which lets an ISAPI server run temporarily with the permissions of a particular user? -----Original Message----- From: Rod Clark [SMTP:bb615 at scn.org] Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 1998 7:14 PM To: Al Boss Cc: scn at scn.org Subject: Re: Pine controversy > I would have thought that the SCN Web-based outgoing mail > function would be run from our own CGI script in tandem with > sendmail, not too different than the well-functioning formmail > script with which you're well-acquainted. Al, The form.cgi and sendform.cgi scripts that SCN uses for e-mail forms processing through sendmail are familiar to me because I wrote them. But sending mail is the easy part, because for one thing it doesn't have to deal with any existing files with private user permissions. SCN is also messy because of Freeport. From what I understand, that's why it took the Hardware/Software people so long to get Pine working. The Freeport code was apparently so impenetrable that they finally just left it like it was, rather than trying to revise it to work with standard Pine. So the Pine and POP implementations were warped around to fit Freeport, instead of vice versa, with mixed results in the case of a few Pine functions. The thing that's most problematic about Web-based e-mail retrieval is that dealing with people's private files through CGI is harder than it sounds. For security reasons, CGI scripts typically run as some innocuous user ID like 'nobody', to avoid problems that could occur with a CGI script that would have access to any file in any user's account. That's what this kind of program would have to have, in order to manage the files in the users' accounts. Otherwise it would be read-only and the users' mail would continue to pile up indefinitely. Even then, such a program couldn't even read everyone's private mail files, let alone write and delete them, without having seriously more than the minimal permissions that CGI scripts running on SCN now have. This makes security critical with such an application. Then you have to take into account that the file locking and other aspects of the system aren't going to work right sometimes, no matter what it says in the documentation. So it's not easy to make something like this work as absolutely reliably as it would have to, and to be as secure as it would have to be, so that it would work 100% of the time under all sorts of anomalous conditions. That may be one reason why you see only a limited number of companies providing Web-based e-mail services like this to many other organizations. From what I hear, your planet is a wonderful place to visit except for the giant poisonous spiders and a few uncouth humanoid species roaming around. Well, take care. See you later. Rod * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END From alboss at scn.org Wed Sep 30 10:48:35 1998 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:48:35 -0700 Subject: Pine controversy References: Message-ID: <36126EF3.83E3DA5@scn.org> Since I made the snide comment in public, I'll apologize in public, too, Rod: my reference to tact and manners was unnecessary. Back to the matter at hand--I think Rod's right on the money: "caveat emptor" (roughly translates as "let the buyer beware", for those who avoided Latin class) is the phrase of the day, for this subject. SCN has (sort of) a precedent set by which we direct our users to programs/services that they can use in conjunction with SCN, but which we didn't write and don't support. (WS_FTP, I-Comm, etc.), so I'd *guess* that we could increase the profile of the third-party Web interfaces to our mail, if we chose to. The other phrase of the day: "if we chose to". There are lots of simple answers for complex solutions. Most of them are wrong. Much as I'd like to see us not get bogged down in process, our process and careful study are what has kept our system stable, affordable, and sustainable, and we dare not give it up. Back to my original question: is this (Web interface to SCN mail) a viable, achievable, practical option to offer our users who are challenged by our current mail options? Best, Al * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn END