From steve at advocate.net Thu Dec 2 11:09:06 1999 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:09:06 -0800 Subject: Congressional info and the web Message-ID: <199912021913.LAA06631@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes ======================== How Congress Resists the Web by Eve Gerber (Slate)---The simplest way the Internet can enhance democracy is by making buried information easily available to citizens. By putting documents of all kinds online, agencies let in disinfecting sunlight and make themselves accountable to the public. By and large, the federal government has made impressive strides toward making itself Web-accessible. But there's one big exception: the U.S. Congress. Congress is ostensibly fascinated with cyberspace. Fifty Web- related bills and resolutions are pending on Capitol Hill. Over 100 members of Congress participate in an Internet caucus. Yet, when it comes to posting basic information about its inner workings, Congress has been shamefully slow. The result is that it protects the privileged status of corporate lobbyists and insulates back-room deals from public scrutiny while fencing out concerned and engaged citizens. Let's say you want to find out something about the latest draft of a bill. You might try the home pages of the House and Senate, which link to Capitol Hill tourism tips and member home pages. But these sites provide scattershot coverage of legislation revisions. Nor are the pages of the legislation's sponsors likely to help. Most of these are filled with promotional dross. Biographical information, press releases, and lengthy legislative accomplishment lists are complemented by intern solicitations and flag request forms. Sen. Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., includes his recipe for Chocolate Nut Pie. You may get closer to what you're looking for at GPO Access, a Government Printing Office site where citizens can download legislation and search Congressional Record archives. The clumsy and confusing THOMAS--a Library of Congress site--duplicates some of this information. It contains bills, roll-call votes, and links to congressional committee sites. But neither of these sites gives you the up-to-date information that might enable you to understand how a bill is working its way through the legislative process. "There is much more information online about Congress than at any time in history," according to Jason Poblete, a spokesman for the House Administration Committee. That is undoubtedly true, but it's hardly a meaningful statement. There is far less information about Congress online than there should and easily could be. Here is what's missing and why: Working Drafts of Bills and Amendments. Citizens can access bills, but working drafts are rarely posted. That's because under current policy, THOMAS cannot post an update until the text is processed by the Government Printing Office. The delay guarantees that lobbyists have time to get drafts and influence the process before the general public knows what's happening. Adam Thierer, Internet policy analyst for the Heritage Foundation, says that "the messy nature of the legislative process makes it difficult to keep a site up to date." But Gary Ruskin of the Congressional Accountability Project, a Ralph Nader-related organization that watches Congress, asserts that committee chairmen squelch the posting of drafts because, "If citizens figured out what was in some of these bills, there would be public outcry against them." Hearing Transcripts and Statements. To find out about congressional hearings, the curious must locate the appropriate committee site. Some committees post opening remarks and transcripts, but the coverage is scattershot. THOMAS publishes hearing testimony, but it often takes months before the transcripts are "processed." While the public waits, lobbyists purchase uncorrected transcripts from pricey transcription agencies. Poblete counsels patience and claims that all committees will offer video archives of hearings someday. In the meantime, Congress could make all its committees' hearings available with the help of a few $200 scanners. Congressional Research Service Reports. Congress spends over $64 million a year on a research service that analyzes thousands of issues, from abortion to Zambia. The reports, which are often excellent, are public documents that the public can't easily get its hands on. Sen. Tom Daschle, D-S.D., posts several hundred CRS reports on his site, and members give them away in response to specific constituent requests. Still, citizens often have to wait weeks for research that a congressional staffer can download in seconds. As a result, commercial services are able to make money selling bootleg copies. Penny Hill Press, for instance, peddles CRS reports for $49 per order. Why not put these guys out of business? Ruskin contends that Congress hoards the reports because "members see CRS as their own fiefdom and they like the ability to give reports as a favor to constituents." A congressional task force is "considering" making all CRS reports public. It is supposed to report its conclusions by the end of the year. Voting Records. To find out how a member voted on a particular bill, citizens must comb through archives of roll-call votes, which are categorized by bill number and searchable by topic. Constituents can't search by representative name, at least at any official government site. Ruskin argues that "easily searchable voting records are essential to democratic accountability." Poblete says Congress is considering how to make voting records easier to access. Lobbyist Disclosure Reports. These reports detail how much lobbyists are paid to work on a particular issue and in theory what, who, and how they lobby. They can make for very interesting reading, but to get them you have to go in person to a little office in the Capitol. Ruskin argues that posting the reports would allow citizens to trace patterns of influence. Citizens are not able to access these reports online, even though they are electronically stored. Poblete claims that the reports will be posted as soon as Congress resolves "technical hurdles." House, Senate, and Personal Financial Disclosure Reports. Members must report how they spend their "representational allowances" and have to file personal financial disclosure reports. The disclosures can be used to ferret out wrongdoing and conflicts of interest. The data are computerized, but for "policy reasons" the reports are not available online. Congress is "reconsidering" whether to post them, according to Poblete. Five years ago, Speaker-elect Newt Gingrich promised to make important information available online "at the same moment that it is available to the highest-paid Washington lobbyist." That did happen, but only once--when Congress instantaneously published the Starr Report. When it comes to its own dirty laundry, there seems to be no such hurry. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jw4 at scn.org Fri Dec 3 01:03:32 1999 From: jw4 at scn.org (Joel Ware IV) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 01:03:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: WAISP Update -- An Open Access Victory! (fwd) Message-ID: Here's some REALLY good news on the open-access front, from the "City of Destiny" just to our south. I hope this precedent will help with our efforts to persuade King County and City of Seattle. Joel Ware, IV jw4 at scn.org Volunteer Coordinator, Member of Governance, HR, Ops, Board, ExComm ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:23:50 -0800 From: Gary Gardner--Executive Director Subject: WAISP Update -- An Open Access Victory! Although the fight for open access to the cable TV systems moves at a somewhat glacial pace, we have scored a MAJOR victory in our own backyard. In the City of Tacoma, Tacoma Public Power developed a cable TV network to compete directly with TCI. They developed the network with the capability to offer broadband Internet Access over that system in addition to cable TV programming, and Tuesday evening -- while Seattle was gripped by rioting protestors -- the Tacoma City Council approved the public tariff for Internet access over the CLICK! Network. Throughout the process of developing the CLICK! Network, and with WAISP assistance and support, open access was a component. The city has beta tested the system with three Tacoma ISPs, and now is ready to begin selling to the public and allowing ISPs to serve customers over the system. When I testified at the City Council Tuesday, I commended them for their actions and for developing the system with an open network in mind. We can now point to Tacoma as a city with a TRUE Open Access Cable system. The CLICK! Network has two options for ISPs as well. One option is that the ISP can use the CLICK! backbone to transport traffic from your routers to the NAP, and the other is to use your own backbone provider -- thus enabling even small providers who might lack larger backbones to serve customers over the Tacoma system. We are very pleased at this development to say the least. I asked Debra Stewart, the CLICK! General Manager how WAISP members could inquire about serving customers over CLICK!, and her response was: "Click! will be sending out RFQs (request for qualifications) this month. We will make sure all of your association members receive one. Thanks again for your assistance. The speech at the podium was terrific!" We can now point to at least one Washington municipality where citizens have multiple choices of ISPs and broadband delivery methods -- Tacoma. (If you'd like a copy of their press release, please let me know and I'll forward one to you.) Meanwhile, WAISP has sent letters to the Kitsap County Council, and to the mayors of Bremerton, Poulsbo, Port Orchard and Bainbridge Island, and to the mayor of Bellingham to initiate discussions over how those jurisdictions should mandate open access to the cable systems they regulate (in addition to our continuing efforts in Seattle, King County and Spokane.) We'll continue to keep you posted as things progress. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org Sat Dec 4 09:06:57 1999 From: kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org (Kurt Cockrum) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:06:57 -0800 Subject: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard Message-ID: <199912041706.JAA09249@grogatch.seaslug.org> The "scapegoats" defend themselves... This viewpoint gets squeezed out of the media so people never get to discuss it. Its appearance here is an small attempt to counter that. Frankly I thought they did a magnificent job, far better than I thought them capable of. We may yet change the course of the juggernaut. --kurt Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 01:27:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199912040627.BAA28846 at lists.tao.ca> Subject: (en) Don't throw the radicals overboard From: "Andrea del Moral" To: danvswto at listbot.com, ise at sover.net, ban at tao.ca, no2wto at listbot.com Sender: worker-a-infos-en at lists.tao.ca Precedence: list Reply-To: a-infos-d at lists.tao.ca ________________________________________________ A - I N F O S N E W S S E R V I C E http://www.ainfos.ca/ ________________________________________________ No-WTO WTO Protest Organizers: Don�t Throw the Radicals Overboard Dec. 2, 1999 �The People, United, Will Never Be Defeated,� was one of the most commonly heard chants in the days of marches protesting the WTO summit in Seattle. However, one of the most striking elements of the WTO protests was the level of conflict between adherents of a �nonviolent� protest method, and those who preferred to express more concretely their feelings towards global capitalism. A tide of reaction has been swelling against the latter, with great arrogance on the part of the former. As a group of activist intellectuals, we feel the need to state our support for the group the media has been calling, only somewhat inaccurately, �the Anarchists from Eugene.� We�the broad Left, anti-corporate, pro-livable world community�controlled the streets of downtown Seattle from 7 am on Tuesday to roughly 7 pm. After that period�with Mayor Schell and Governor Locke�s declarations of martial law and the violent offensive by local, county, state police and the National Guard�the streets were a war zone, but during that period, they were a liberated area. Inside that liberated area a spectrum of protest and resistance activities took place, many of which warmed our hearts. Violence against property, as we�ll call the attacks against corporate chain stores by activists, was one of the conscious strategies that was employed. These activities began on the afternoon of Monday, Nov. 29th, with the smashing of a window at McDonald�s. The next day, Tuesday, Nov. 30th, they started again shortly after 10 am, at the corner of 6th Ave. and Pike St., when police began shooting tear gas cannisters and rubber bullets into the crowd. Throughout the day activists, protecting their identities with hoods and kerchiefs, formed �black blocks� to move en masse to attack unoccupied chain stores such as the Gap, Nike, Levi, Disney, and Bank of America. This is a key point that the media and President Clinton, among others, are trying to obscure: the crowd did not attack �mom and pop stores,� but the physical manifestations of �McDomination�. Adherents to �non-violent� protest methods preach against targeting corporate property. We feel that this is an uncritical acceptance of the dominant value system of American consumer society: private property has a higher value than life. At this time, we feel that we, as activists, need to debate these issues further among ourselves. The problem we are addressing immediately is that these �non-violent� activists used their numerical advantage to isolate and dominate practitioners of alternate protest philosophies: most visibly, the black block anarchists. As a spectrum of protest activities manifested themselves, scenes we witnessed included �non-violent� activists linking arms to protect the corporate theme store Nike Town from the aggressive acts of a black block. Riot police soon replaced the �peace advocates� as if to say, �We�ll take over now. You�re only volunteering to protect property, we do it for a living.� Elsewhere throughout the day �non-violent� activists de-masked, and on at least one occasion beat, an individual who was acting against property. Many elements of the broad Left, anti-corporate, pro-livable world community have been alarmingly willing to distance themselves from the direct, militant forms of protest. The World Trade Observer, a daily tabloid published by a network of mainstream environmental and fair trade organizations, which features the writing of prominent figures such as Ralph Nader and Norman Solomon, offers one example. In describing the previous day�s festivities in their Wednesday, December 1st issue, they identified as a �troubling theme� the practice of �the police singling out peaceful demonstrators for gassing and beating... while ignoring black-clad hooligans breaking windows and spraying paint.� We witnessed other �non-violent� protesters criticize the police, not for waging chemical warfare to cleanse the streets of protesters, but for failing to enter into the crowd and extract the practitioners of militant protest. The implication of these statements is that the crowd would have handed over some of its members to the police, if the police had only asked. We strongly urge progressive activists to reconsider this stance. There will undoubtedly be repercussions from the fact that we took control of a major city for twelve hours, as the leading administrative body of global capitalism met to brainstorm for the next millennium. It is unfair, and irresponsible, to offer �the Anarchists from Eugene� to the state as scapegoats. Without the support of the rest of the WTO protesters, the direct action practitioners are at great risk. Grand juries have become common in the militant animal rights and environmental movements: we would not think it a surprising development for there to be an inquisition exploring �conspiracy to riot� charges for the day of well-directed rage in Seattle. Gas-masks have been declared illegal in Seattle under Mayor Schell�s martial law, and the donning of hoods is being explored by prosecutors in Eugene as a possible excuse for sentence enhancement. The price of protecting oneself and one�s identity from police violence is rising. As people who are interested in counteracting the ill effects of globalization and ensuring a livable new millenium, we need to consciously confront the criminalization of radical political philosophies. We feel that those who belittle and distance themselves from the actions of �the Anarchists from Eugene� have either ignored or simply did not realize the level of contributions anarchists�black-clad and otherwise�made towards bringing the N30 Festival of Resistance into reality. These include the innovative and joyful protest methods of the Direct Action Network, a sustained consciousness-raising effort from Left Bank Books, alternative social structures offered by Food Not Bombs and Homes Not Jails, the Anarchist hotline, housing networks, and so on. It also should not go unsaid that developing a community able to produced several hundred predominantly white youths with middle-class backgrounds to take militant action against their real enemy is no small feat of organization. It has taken years of sowing and tending to seeds of awareness and resistance, and we, at least, appreciate that effort. If the Left activist community is to be united and strong, more communication and internal discussion around strategical issues is necessary. Our contact information is listed below. All of us have experience with social movements, and many of us have mapped the repressive tactics used against them. We encourage media to get in touch with us as well. Daniel Burton-Rose, (206) 324-8165, ex. 1. Co-editor, The Celling of America: An Inside Look at the U.S. Prison Industry (Common Courage Press, 1998), editor, win: a newsletter on activism at the extremes. Ward Churchill, (303) 492-5066 (voice mail). Author, Pacifism as Pathology: Reflections on the Role of Armed Struggle in North America (Arbeiter Ring: 1998). Robin Hahnel, (202) 885-2712, rhahnel at american.edu. Author, Panic Rules: Everything You Need to Know About the Global Economy (South End Press, 1999); Professor, American University. Kent Jewell, (206) 324-8165, ex. 3. Former co-owner, Left Bank Books Collective. George Katsiaficas, (617) 989-4384. Author: The Subversion of Politics: European Autonomous Social Movements and the Decolonization of Everyday Life (Humanities Press, 1997) and The Global Imagination of the New Left (South End Press, 1987); editor, with Kathleen Cleaver, Liberation, Imagination, and the Black Panther Party (Routledge, forthcoming); editor, New Political Science. Christian Parenti, (415) 626-4034, seapea at juno.com. Lockdown America: Police and Prisons in the Age of Crisis (Verso, 1999); instructor, New College. Robert Perkinson, (203) 772-1600, robert.perkinson at yale.edu. Instructor, Yale University. Signatures are on file with win, a �movement consultancy� group currently based in Seattle. ******** ****** The A-Infos News Service ****** News about and of interest to anarchists ****** COMMANDS: lists at tao.ca REPLIES: a-infos-d at lists.tao.ca HELP: a-infos-org at lists.tao.ca WWW: http://www.ainfos.ca/ INFO: http://www.ainfos.ca/org --kurt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at aa.net Sat Dec 4 14:36:13 1999 From: sharma at aa.net (Sharma) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:36:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard Message-ID: There are a number of different issues here and I do not have time right now to address them. It think it is very important that these issues not be collapsed into supporting violence vs supporting non-violence. At the moment I most strongly request that people think about what they are doing before they decide to help the police and probably FBI in identifying people who smashed windows. Seattle has a long and honorable tradition of NOT cooperating with the authorities in investigations into political property damage. Please do not be hasty in changing that. I look forward to discussing these issues further in the next day or two. An old rad, -sharma ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:06:57 -0800 From: Kurt Cockrum To: scn at scn.org Subject: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard The "scapegoats" defend themselves... This viewpoint gets squeezed out of the media so people never get to discuss it. Its appearance here is an small attempt to counter that. Frankly I thought they did a magnificent job, far better than I thought them capable of. We may yet change the course of the juggernaut. --kurt Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 01:27:33 -0500 Subject: (en) Don't throw the radicals overboard From: "Andrea del Moral" To: danvswto at listbot.com, ise at sover.net, ban at tao.ca, no2wto at listbot.com Sender: worker-a-infos-en at lists.tao.ca Reply-To: a-infos-d at lists.tao.ca ________________________________________________ A - I N F O S N E W S S E R V I C E http://www.ainfos.ca/ ________________________________________________ No-WTO WTO Protest Organizers: Don�t Throw the Radicals Overboard Dec. 2, 1999 "The People, United, Will Never Be Defeated," was one of the most commonly heard chants in the days of marches protesting the WTO summit in Seattle. However, one of the most striking elements of the WTO protests was the level of conflict between adherents of a "nonviolent" protest method, and those who preferred to express more concretely their feelings towards global capitalism. A tide of reaction has been swelling against the latter, with great arrogance on the part of the former. As a group of activist intellectuals, we feel the need to state our support for the group the media has been calling, only somewhat inaccurately, "the Anarchists from Eugene." We - the broad Left, anti-corporate, pro-livable world community - controlled the streets of downtown Seattle from 7 am on Tuesday to roughly 7 pm. After that period - with Mayor Schell and Governor Locke�s declarations of martial law and the violent offensive by local, county, state police and the National Guard - the streets were a war zone, but during that period, they were a liberated area. Inside that liberated area a spectrum of protest and resistance activities took place, many of which warmed our hearts. Violence against property, as we�ll call the attacks against corporate chain stores by activists, was one of the conscious strategies that was employed. These activities began on the afternoon of Monday, Nov. 29th, with the smashing of a window at McDonald�s. The next day, Tuesday, Nov. 30th, they started again shortly after 10 am, at the corner of 6th Ave. and Pike St., when police began shooting tear gas cannisters and rubber bullets into the crowd. Throughout the day activists, protecting their identities with hoods and kerchiefs, formed "black blocks" to move en masse to attack unoccupied chain stores such as the Gap, Nike, Levi, Disney, and Bank of America. This is a key point that the media and President Clinton, among others, are trying to obscure: the crowd did not attack "mom and pop stores," but the physical manifestations of "McDomination". Adherents to "non-violent" protest methods preach against targeting corporate property. We feel that this is an uncritical acceptance of the dominant value system of American consumer society: private property has a higher value than life. At this time, we feel that we, as activists, need to debate these issues further among ourselves. The problem we are addressing immediately is that these "non-violent" activists used their numerical advantage to isolate and dominate practitioners of alternate protest philosophies: most visibly, the black block anarchists. As a spectrum of protest activities manifested themselves, scenes we witnessed included "non-violent" activists linking arms to protect the corporate theme store Nike Town from the aggressive acts of a black block. Riot police soon replaced the "peace advocates" as if to say, "We�ll take over now. You�re only volunteering to protect property, we do it for a living." Elsewhere throughout the day "non-violent" activists de-masked, and on at least one occasion beat, an individual who was acting against property. Many elements of the broad Left, anti-corporate, pro-livable world community have been alarmingly willing to distance themselves from the direct, militant forms of protest. The World Trade Observer, a daily tabloid published by a network of mainstream environmental and fair trade organizations, which features the writing of prominent figures such as Ralph Nader and Norman Solomon, offers one example. In describing the previous day�s festivities in their Wednesday, December 1st issue, they identified as a "troubling theme" the practice of "the police singling out peaceful demonstrators for gassing and beating... while ignoring black-clad hooligans breaking windows and spraying paint." We witnessed other "non-violent" protesters criticize the police, not for waging chemical warfare to cleanse the streets of protesters, but for failing to enter into the crowd and extract the practitioners of militant protest. The implication of these statements is that the crowd would have handed over some of its members to the police, if the police had only asked. We strongly urge progressive activists to reconsider this stance. There will undoubtedly be repercussions from the fact that we took control of a major city for twelve hours, as the leading administrative body of global capitalism met to brainstorm for the next millennium. It is unfair, and irresponsible, to offer "the Anarchists from Eugene" to the state as scapegoats. Without the support of the rest of the WTO protesters, the direct action practitioners are at great risk. Grand juries have become common in the militant animal rights and environmental movements: we would not think it a surprising development for there to be an inquisition exploring "conspiracy to riot" charges for the day of well-directed rage in Seattle. Gas-masks have been declared illegal in Seattle under Mayor Schell�s martial law, and the donning of hoods is being explored by prosecutors in Eugene as a possible excuse for sentence enhancement. The price of protecting oneself and one�s identity from police violence is rising. As people who are interested in counteracting the ill effects of globalization and ensuring a livable new millenium, we need to consciously confront the criminalization of radical political philosophies. We feel that those who belittle and distance themselves from the actions of "the Anarchists from Eugene" have either ignored or simply did not realize the level of contributions anarchists - black-clad and otherwise - made towards bringing the N30 Festival of Resistance into reality. These include the innovative and joyful protest methods of the Direct Action Network, a sustained consciousness-raising effort from Left Bank Books, alternative social structures offered by Food Not Bombs and Homes Not Jails, the Anarchist hotline, housing networks, and so on. It also should not go unsaid that developing a community able to produced several hundred predominantly white youths with middle-class backgrounds to take militant action against their real enemy is no small feat of organization. It has taken years of sowing and tending to seeds of awareness and resistance, and we, at least, appreciate that effort. If the Left activist community is to be united and strong, more communication and internal discussion around strategical issues is necessary. Our contact information is listed below. All of us have experience with social movements, and many of us have mapped the repressive tactics used against them. We encourage media to get in touch with us as well. Daniel Burton-Rose, (206) 324-8165, ex. 1. Co-editor, The Celling of America: An Inside Look at the U.S. Prison Industry (Common Courage Press, 1998), editor, win: a newsletter on activism at the extremes. Ward Churchill, (303) 492-5066 (voice mail). Author, Pacifism as Pathology: Reflections on the Role of Armed Struggle in North America (Arbeiter Ring: 1998). Robin Hahnel, (202) 885-2712, rhahnel at american.edu. Author, Panic Rules: Everything You Need to Know About the Global Economy (South End Press, 1999); Professor, American University. Kent Jewell, (206) 324-8165, ex. 3. Former co-owner, Left Bank Books Collective. George Katsiaficas, (617) 989-4384. Author: The Subversion of Politics: European Autonomous Social Movements and the Decolonization of Everyday Life (Humanities Press, 1997) and The Global Imagination of the New Left (South End Press, 1987); editor, with Kathleen Cleaver, Liberation, Imagination, and the Black Panther Party (Routledge, forthcoming); editor, New Political Science. Christian Parenti, (415) 626-4034, seapea at juno.com. Lockdown America: Police and Prisons in the Age of Crisis (Verso, 1999); instructor, New College. Robert Perkinson, (203) 772-1600, robert.perkinson at yale.edu. Instructor, Yale University. Signatures are on file with win, a "movement consultancy" group currently based in Seattle. ******** ****** The A-Infos News Service ****** News about and of interest to anarchists ****** COMMANDS: lists at tao.ca REPLIES: a-infos-d at lists.tao.ca HELP: a-infos-org at lists.tao.ca WWW: http://www.ainfos.ca/ INFO: http://www.ainfos.ca/org --kurt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Fri Dec 10 17:09:48 1999 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:09:48 -0800 Subject: WTO Message-ID: <199912110114.RAA03336@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes ============================== Hey, from Business Week magazine, of all places! ============================== The Seattle Protesters Got It Right (Business Week)---Global trade politics will never be the same after Seattle. For the first time, the issue is squarely joined: Shall human rights take their place alongside property rights in the global economic system? For advocates of laissez-faire trade, of course, the matter is far simpler. Those who question ''free trade,'' as The New York Times columnist Thomas L. Friedman wrote indignantly, are ''a Noah's Ark of flat-earth advocates.'' The man can mix a metaphor as well as miss the point. The point, reduced to its essence, is that capitalism works better as a mixed system than as a laissez-faire system. For a century, citizens of Western countries have voted for a mixed system. We prefer a mixed economy to temper the extremes and inequities of raw capitalism. That's why we regulate banks and securities markets; that's why we have labor and environmental laws and social insurance. But now, through such institutions as the World Trade Organization and the International Monetary Fund, the world's investors want to resurrect the capitalism of the robber baron era--a global charter for property rights but not human rights. Otherwise, how could China, a one-party state that jails people seeking free speech or free trade unions, possibly qualify for membership? Otherwise, why is it permissible to trample the sovereignty of developing countries to secure U.S. intellectual-property rights and free capital flows, but not to ban child labor? Commentators such as Friedman confuse two things: the virtue of trade and the ground rules for trade. Foreign trade, like domestic commerce, enhances economic growth. But increased commerce does not require pure laissez-faire. As Jeff Faux of the Economic Policy Institute has observed, policies that are utterly mainstream in the national context, such as minimum wages, are deemed controversial when applied globally. However desirable cross-border trade may be, it is not the sum and substance of a democratic society. Friedman also wrote: ''Every country and company that has improved its labor, legal, and environmental standards has done so because of more global trade, more integration, more Internet.'' This would certainly be news to Walter Reuther, Martin Luther King Jr., or Rachel Carson, not to mention Nelson Mandela or Thomas Jefferson. The struggle for a decent, democratic, and humane society has little to do with trade. It exists in an entirely separate realm--the realm of democratic citizenship--that is now being undermined by trade. Happily, it is democratic citizenship that's challenging the claims of global laissez-faire, just as it was democratic citizenship that built a domestic mixed economy. In Seattle, President Clinton called for more trade, but also for labor and environmental standards, and more openness in WTO panels. Clinton didn't get a sudden revelation. Rather, he observed that the labor movement, which reluctantly endorsed Al Gore, is livid about Clinton's decision to welcome totalitarian/capitalist China into the WTO. He saw his allies in the environmental movement in the streets. In short, he changed his tune because of citizen protest. The Administration went to Seattle hoping for a grand bargain: The U.S. would offer a token committee to gingerly explore labor standards; the Europeans would stop managing their farm economy; the Third World would become even more open to global capital flows. The deal didn't fly. A much better deal can be had: Give poor countries some serious debt relief, as proposed by the world's religious leaders in the Jubilee 2000 campaign. In exchange, governments of authoritarian countries would have to embrace minimal standards of decency for their workers and citizens. Also, raise environmental standards, but accompany this with serious transfers of technology. Before Seattle, these ideas were not even debatable. Now they are getting a hearing. Even the editorial writers of The New York Times, who routinely champion the conventional view of free trade, found the words to declare that ''[the] WTO's 135 members will make a huge mistake if they fail to grasp the core belief fueling these unruly protests--that the WTO is far too insular, that it has displayed far too little sympathy for issues such as workers' rights and the environment, and that its secretive procedures undermine public trust.'' But it isn't the WTO that's insular. The WTO agenda is set by the world's leading governments, which forgot that they are elected not only to advance the interests of multinational corporations but also those of citizens. The author William Greider observes: What a shame that careful, reasoned argument could not accomplish what was achieved by a little broken glass. Copyright Businessweek Online 12/99 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Thu Dec 16 08:47:51 1999 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:47:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard In-Reply-To: <199912041706.JAA09249@grogatch.seaslug.org> Message-ID: Here's the problem that I see with 'direct action', especially and specifically when property is destroyed. During the WTO, there was a golden opportunity to make a significant impression on the minds of many people who, like myself, do not think about the global issues every minute of the day. The actions of 'shutting down' the WTO were significant. I commend the labor, environmental, and other activists who brought this about. But arguing that destruction of property is justified, even if held by corporations that some say are faceless, is crap. The issue to me here is people. Corporations own the establishments, but people run them. And it is people who are put out of work, and who are affected by the actions of a small band of individuals who think that the corporations are going to give a small rip about property that is covered by insurance anyway. The 'anarchists' claimed they only went after the big guys and left the little guys alone. What were they thinking? Even if you can argue that the police might have over-reacted, the ensuing riots, closure of the downtown, and property damage but people who were just out for a good time, surely damaged the little guys. At a time when most of the businesses count on a large influx of shoppers, they were shut down. All this because a few idiots decided that they are a law unto themselves. It really is disappointing. Instead of what could have been a lasting image of a joyous celebration of the power of many people speaking out with one voice, we are left with the images of broken glass, tear gas and rubber bullets. What a shame. I agree with the columnist in the Seattle Weekly, writing after the event - the anarchists activities sucked. -randy On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Kurt Cockrum wrote: > The "scapegoats" defend themselves... > This viewpoint gets squeezed out of the media so people never get to > discuss it. Its appearance here is an small attempt to counter that. > Frankly I thought they did a magnificent job, far better than I thought > them capable of. We may yet change the course of the juggernaut. > --kurt > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Fri Dec 17 00:34:08 1999 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 00:34:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It would have been nice if there had been no property damage. But there was. Point 1: To me it is less significant that 2% of the demonstrators went out of control than that 2% of the cops went out of control. I hold cops to a higher standard of lawful behavior. Do we want to say "it's bad that the anarchists broke the law and so that justifies the police also breaking the law?" Point 2: The polite labor march (in which I participated) was good, but of little consequence. Even Randy conceded that "shutting down" the WTO was significant. It was not the destruction that shut it down; it was (a) blocking intersections, (b) linking arms and physically preventing delegates from getting through, (c) holding unauthorized marches randomly in downtown and (c) "shutting down" downtown Seattle. All of those things are illegal. But those are what impacted the WTO. I do agree that the destruction was both wrong and counterproductive, but mostly because it was counterproductive -- it gave an excuse for a lot of people to waste time on the property damage and ignore (a) the essence of the WTO's damage to people and ignore (b) the collapse of discipline among the police. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Randy Groves wrote: > > Here's the problem that I see with 'direct action', especially and > specifically when property is destroyed. During the WTO, there was a > golden opportunity to make a significant impression on the minds of many > people who, like myself, do not think about the global issues every minute > of the day. The actions of 'shutting down' the WTO were significant. I > commend the labor, environmental, and other activists who brought this > about. > > But arguing that destruction of property is justified, even if held by > corporations that some say are faceless, is crap. > > The issue to me here is people. Corporations own the establishments, but > people run them. And it is people who are put out of work, and who are > affected by the actions of a small band of individuals who think that the > corporations are going to give a small rip about property that is covered > by insurance anyway. The 'anarchists' claimed they only went after the > big guys and left the little guys alone. What were they thinking? > > Even if you can argue that the police might have over-reacted, the ensuing > riots, closure of the downtown, and property damage but people who were > just out for a good time, surely damaged the little guys. At a time when > most of the businesses count on a large influx of shoppers, they were shut > down. > > All this because a few idiots decided that they are a law unto themselves. > > It really is disappointing. Instead of what could have been a lasting > image of a joyous celebration of the power of many people speaking out > with one voice, we are left with the images of broken glass, tear gas and > rubber bullets. What a shame. I agree with the columnist in the Seattle > Weekly, writing after the event - the anarchists activities sucked. > > -randy > > > On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Kurt Cockrum wrote: > > > The "scapegoats" defend themselves... > > This viewpoint gets squeezed out of the media so people never get to > > discuss it. Its appearance here is an small attempt to counter that. > > Frankly I thought they did a magnificent job, far better than I thought > > them capable of. We may yet change the course of the juggernaut. > > --kurt > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Fri Dec 17 14:01:19 1999 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:01:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Point 1: I in no way was trying to justify the actions of the police. Point 2: I think that history has shown that there is great effect in non-violent civil disobedience. My point is, we won't know how effective it could have been, will we? And all because of what I consider rotten apples. -randy On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Rich Littleton wrote: > > It would have been nice if there had been no property damage. > > But there was. > > Point 1: > To me it is less significant that 2% of the demonstrators went out of > control than that 2% of the cops went out of control. I hold cops to a > higher standard of lawful behavior. > > Do we want to say "it's bad that the anarchists broke the law and so that > justifies the police also breaking the law?" > > Point 2: The polite labor march (in which I participated) was good, but > of little consequence. Even Randy conceded that "shutting down" the WTO > was significant. It was not the destruction that shut it down; it was > (a) blocking intersections, (b) linking arms and physically preventing > delegates from getting through, (c) holding unauthorized marches > randomly in downtown and (c) "shutting down" downtown Seattle. > > All of those things are illegal. > > But those are what impacted the WTO. > > I do agree that the destruction was both wrong and counterproductive, but > mostly because it was counterproductive -- it gave an excuse for a lot of > people to waste time on the property damage and ignore (a) the essence of > the WTO's damage to people and ignore (b) the collapse of discipline > among the police. > > Rich > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From scoth at scn.org Fri Dec 17 14:42:33 1999 From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on SCN.org) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:42:33 -0800 Subject: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard References: Message-ID: <007901bf48e0$059ef180$078cc5ce@thurman.com> I think it's interesting to remember that civil disobedience, especially as employed in protest environments, will involve breaking the law. Protestors are willing to be tried and jailed for their beliefs, though the actual charges are more likely to be things like "obstructing traffic". The public consequences of such actions as blocked traffic will be to make people late. It may be worse if one or more people are blocked in the course of getting to a hospital. To that end, it is right and proper that those breaking the law and who refuse to desist are subject to arrest. Their arrest makes their point, while their efforts have real affects on innocent parties. One of those affects, hopefully, will be awareness of the subject matter, along with the inconvenience (or worse). As to the anarchists... They clearly crossed a line in purposely destroying property. Most admit it. At the same time, many officers crossed a line with their actions. It was a sad day all around, and it's not clearly any single group's fault. The current review of city preparations will probably prove more damning than anything. The city _knew_ violent protestors were coming, yet their preparations were woefully inadequate. Everyone will have their share of blame, but the city made a messy bed in which to lay. Scot -- Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) | Systems Administrator, Thurman Ind, Bothell, WA North Bend, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From janossz at scn.org Fri Dec 17 19:29:31 1999 From: janossz at scn.org (Janos Szablya) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:29:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And the funny part is that even without the protest it was know that the WTO would not agree in Seattle. Janos * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Wed Dec 22 09:01:55 1999 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:01:55 -0800 Subject: Maybe some stuff for SCN to think about? Message-ID: <199912221706.JAA03094@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes ============================ PC-User Club Thrives By Using an Old Trick: Frequent Upgrades by Mary Flood The Wall Street Journal In the high-tech world, yesterday's hot concept can be today's yawn. Just ask the nation's largest personal-computer-user club. The Houston Area League of Personal Computer Users, or HAL-PC, started in 1982 when personal computers were still exotic devices and people were nowhere near as computer-literate as they are today. Starting with 20 members, the group taught novice PC users about software and hardware, and later offered discount Internet access. It's membership today: 13,000. It hasn't been easy staying on top of the PC-club world. Indeed, now that PCs are no longer the province of geek hobbyists, some wonder if there is any need for user clubs at all. Many clubs, such as the once-gigantic Boston group, burned bright in the '80s only to die in the mid-'90s. But the Bayou City cyberphiles have managed to thrive. How? The club's leaders credit Houston's size and geography, a high level of volunteer spirit and their own adaptability. Reinventing themselves by jumping from popular niche to popular niche, the group has done nothing but grow. But knowing the fate of other user groups, they are desperately looking for ways to stay relevant and vibrant. They've even put a public-relations firm on retainer to help promote special events. Most important, HAL-PC is on the hunt for youth: It has installed a 16- year-old on its board of directors, hoping the high-school dropout will be an evangelist to a new generation of teens and young adults, whom it hopes to attract through computer-game parties and recruitment. "We want new blood," says HAL-PC President Ray Morris. "We want to bring in more kids." Little wonder. The group's aging membership was plain to see at the club's December meeting in the George R. Brown Convention Center, where more than 600 members gathered seeking bargains from a handful of vendors and to listen to a program about software innovations. Most of the members were men, and most appeared to be more than 50 years old. Members of other user groups around the nation say it's a common phenomenon for the clubs, which tend to attract retired men with time on their hands. But HAL-PC isn't taking demographics sitting still. Carla Cawlfield, the group's vice president for communications and overseer of its slick monthly magazine, says the group needs young members to stay big. And, she says, its needs to stay big so the $40 annual dues will maintain the 11,000-square-foot Galleria area headquarters where the hobbyist subgroups meet, and to continue supporting low-cost Internet access. It also offers help-line support and classes in the use of hardware and software. "Computers are still not truly user-friendly machines you can just plug in out of a box like a refrigerator and you're ready to go," Ms. Cawlfield says. "The 50% of households that are about to get computers are the people who need us most." Change is nothing new to HAL-PC. It started 19 years ago with only a handful of members, mostly men then in their 30s to 50s. It grew rapidly in the late '80s by selling then-popular five-inch floppy disks at a 73% discount -- once selling 70,000 of the now-obsolete disks at one meeting. In the mid-'90s, when other such groups began to shrink, it continued to expand by offering members Internet access for $9.95 a month, about half what commercial providers charged. HAL-PC was the third Internet-service provider established in Houston, and membership in the group jumped to 12,000 from 8,000 families in about a year because of the service. (This year, it added high-speed digital subscriber line service for only $5 a month.) These services helped make HAL-PC the largest user group in the U.S. by 1996, when the former title-holder, the Boston Computer Society, dissolved into a collection of smaller special-interest groups. HAL-PC's membership now overwhelms all others. The next largest user club is in San Antonio, with fewer than 5,000 members, and the third largest has about 4,000 members in Washington, D.C. HAL-PC has survived partly on its own ability to change, but also thanks to a local population thick with engineers -- in the energy industry, at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration and the medical industry -- not to mention the local computer industry. But engineers, like mere mortals, get older. "Even though our member numbers are good, we're probably dying, too," says President Morris. "After all, M.D. Anderson Cancer Center came to do a prostate screening at one of our meetings because we're such a target-rich environment." So the club is looking to 16-year-old board member Matthew Castillo to help bring in a new generation of computer users. Mr. Castillo, who has been playing around on computers since he was nine years old, came to his first HAL-PC meeting about two years ago and quickly became involved in the group because he was impressed by the backgrounds and technical knowledge of the group members. Mr. Castillo dropped out of high school last year, although he is taking courses at Houston Community College. He was added to the board in July, even though he is too young to enter into contracts and has to abstain from board votes on contract matters. "Eventually the older people will stop coming," Mr. Castillo. "But we're doing things to bring in younger people." In part, Mr. Castillo intends to do that by playing to the group's existing strength: classes in the use of popular software. He also advocates the use of so-called LAN (local-area network) parties, in which game-playing teens gather in a large room to compete against each on networked computer games while eating junk food and listening to loud music. To expand the game program, the group wants to hook up with residents of Walden Internet Villages, three Houston apartment complexes that target computer-savvy tenants. The three complexes have a total of 600 units offering super-high-speed Internet access; two more complexes are planned for next year. Walden tenants are just the kind of people HAL-PC wants to attract. "It's not uncommon here for someone to knock on your door at 3 a.m. to see if they can borrow some RAM or see if you have some extra CDs they can burn," says 26-year-old Alan LeFort, chief technical director at the complexes. "That's more likely than someone asking for a cup of sugar." Messrs. LeFort and Castillo want the two groups to sponsor game parties together, enabling HAL-PC to bring in new members from the complex and the complex to attract new tenants from the club. Says Mr. LeFort: "I think we can play to each other's strengths." Copyright © 1999 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Thu Dec 23 12:44:50 1999 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:44:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard In-Reply-To: <007901bf48e0$059ef180$078cc5ce@thurman.com> Message-ID: I second what Scot said. I'll add one item. Back in the 60s, when I was state coordinator for Nebraskans For Peace, we got a report on non-violence. It said that the organizations that use violence generally get more done. I was bothered by this report and would like to see a well-researched counter report. However, note the complete lack of progress in getting campaign finance reform. (Complete lack!!!) Maybe we should send a note to the Eugene people and suggest that they visit Wash. D.C. later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Scot Harkins on SCN.org wrote: > I think it's interesting to remember that civil disobedience, especially as > employed in protest environments, will involve breaking the law. Protestors > are willing to be tried and jailed for their beliefs, though the actual > charges are more likely to be things like "obstructing traffic". > > The public consequences of such actions as blocked traffic will be to make > people late. It may be worse if one or more people are blocked in the > course of getting to a hospital. To that end, it is right and proper that > those breaking the law and who refuse to desist are subject to arrest. > Their arrest makes their point, while their efforts have real affects on > innocent parties. One of those affects, hopefully, will be awareness of the > subject matter, along with the inconvenience (or worse). > > As to the anarchists... They clearly crossed a line in purposely destroying > property. Most admit it. At the same time, many officers crossed a line > with their actions. It was a sad day all around, and it's not clearly any > single group's fault. > > The current review of city preparations will probably prove more damning > than anything. The city _knew_ violent protestors were coming, yet their > preparations were woefully inadequate. Everyone will have their share of > blame, but the city made a messy bed in which to lay. > > > Scot > > -- > Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) | Systems Administrator, Thurman Ind, Bothell, WA > North Bend, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington > scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir > scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Thu Dec 23 12:46:29 1999 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:46:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But the idea was to let the whole world know about the WTO problems, not just Seattle. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Janos Szablya wrote: > And the funny part is that even without the protest it was know that the > WTO would not agree in Seattle. > > Janos > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Thu Dec 30 00:25:59 1999 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 00:25:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ken makes some good points, so I've done an interlineated response belowe. ______________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 27 Dec 1999, Kenneth Crandall wrote: > Hi, > (snip) > > It has been clearly shown that non-violent actions can make major changes. > Gandhi and Martin Luther King are recent examples of people who have > accomplished unprecedented change. I believe that a strong element of the > non-violent approach is that it makes the populace think about the issues > and to search their inner selves. They are then converted to a new way of > thinking. I think Ken is mostly right. And I'd like to point out how excellent it is to have arrived at a stage in human history where (1) non-violence is a viable subject of discussion and (2) that we have recent and superlative models that Ken mentioned to illustrate the non-violent approach. > > Violence tries to force changes by coercion or fear. I don't believe this > will change peoples way of seeing things. I'd place a 35% disagreement on the table at this point. Violence makes an issue "messy" and thus something that gets heightened attention so it can be "tidied up." I remember the Watts riots in the 60s. The damage to property was senseless and even self-defeating (the destruction was mostly in the poor sections of town). HOWEVER, from then on, embarrassment that such a social explosion did occur in the US of A and the worry that this destruction could re-occur lent impetus to efforts to look for solutions. > > When politicians believe that people require finance reform, we will get it! > Make it an issue when you vote. Ken, I would place a 100% disagreement on the table here. Polls have shown that the people want campaign finance reform, and congress (esp. Republicans) have done everything but go in that direction. There is an all-too-human tendancy for people who hold power to resist the populace's efforts to share that power. (...even happens in SCNA) As long as a decision-maker can get more control by consolidating power, the will of the electorate will lose. (See our local examples where Washington politicians re-ran an election when the stadium lost once, thereby going directly against the will of the voters, and see that, even though voters passed an initiative for extending the monorail, the efforts go everywhere else. So I think politicians deliberately ignore the voters if there is more benefit to the politicians in ignoring those voters. > Good points made, Ken. Thanks. Rich > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Rich > Littleton > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 12:45 PM > To: Scot Harkins on SCN.org > Cc: scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard > > > > I second what Scot said. > > I'll add one item. > > Back in the 60s, when I was state coordinator for Nebraskans For Peace, we > got a report on non-violence. It said that the organizations that use > violence generally get more done. > > I was bothered by this report and would like to see a well-researched > counter report. > > However, note the complete lack of progress in getting campaign finance > reform. (Complete lack!!!) Maybe we should send a note to the Eugene > people and suggest that they visit Wash. D.C. > > later, > > Rich > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From scoth at scn.org Thu Dec 30 10:22:07 1999 From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on SCN.org) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:22:07 -0800 Subject: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard References: Message-ID: <001d01bf52f2$c9acc6d0$078cc5ce@thurman.com> Oy! Non-violence is alive and well. Violent protest is an old and sometimes effective tool, but folks should remember that in breaking the law and damaging property they are liable for criminal and civil penalties. I personally discourage violent protest, and I abhor nonsensical violent "protest". I recognize, however, that taking up arms (be they literal or figurative, fist or club) may be the only path to change in a world where elected officials all but ignore the electorate. As to people in power wanting to stay in power and do their thing rather than the will of the people... Yep, that's been our history in the US as in so many other countries, and it happens even today. Politicians like Governor Locke say we only voted down a tax proposal for the stadium miss the point the voters were making in the vote. They lack vision to see the message behind the results. In the end we get shafted. The monorail is a fine example. I still stand in horror at the cost of digging a tunnel under the hills of Seattle, in an area prone to massive earthquakes (maybe I'm paranoid and maybe engineers can guarantee their work, but the earth is big and we are specks on its face). Still, the varied political interests keeps their stance and argue their faces blue and waste our time and money. I grew up in Dallas, Texas. There was a city councilman there in the 70's and 80's named Max Goldblat. Often considered a whacko, he had the best idea for the financial support of the then-theoretical Dallas-Area Rapid Transit (DART): build the big stations at shopping malls. People get on and off the train at these shopping centers. The businesses benefit from the constant flow of passengers who stop and shop, and the trains get financing from the mall owners and maintenance on the station. It seemed to make beautiful sense and had support in the community from citizens and businesses. The DART Board (what and apt name) never gave the issue serious thought and went right on with their limited vision. Oh, well, in a 100 years most of us will be dead and someone else will get to blame us for lack of vision as they suffer the strictures of such a legacy. People will still fall in love and sunsets will still be golden. I hope. -- Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) | Systems Administrator, Thurman Ind, Bothell, WA North Bend, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Thu Dec 30 23:53:31 1999 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 23:53:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard In-Reply-To: <001d01bf52f2$c9acc6d0$078cc5ce@thurman.com> Message-ID: Very well said, Scot. You pretty well covered it. Thanks. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 30 Dec 1999, Scot Harkins on SCN.org wrote: > Oy! > > Non-violence is alive and well. Violent protest is an old and sometimes > effective tool, but folks should remember that in breaking the law and > damaging property they are liable for criminal and civil penalties. > > I personally discourage violent protest, and I abhor nonsensical violent > "protest". I recognize, however, that taking up arms (be they literal or > figurative, fist or club) may be the only path to change in a world where > elected officials all but ignore the electorate. > > As to people in power wanting to stay in power and do their thing rather > than the will of the people... Yep, that's been our history in the US as in > so many other countries, and it happens even today. Politicians like > Governor Locke say we only voted down a tax proposal for the stadium miss > the point the voters were making in the vote. They lack vision to see the > message behind the results. In the end we get shafted. > > The monorail is a fine example. I still stand in horror at the cost of > digging a tunnel under the hills of Seattle, in an area prone to massive > earthquakes (maybe I'm paranoid and maybe engineers can guarantee their > work, but the earth is big and we are specks on its face). Still, the > varied political interests keeps their stance and argue their faces blue and > waste our time and money. > > I grew up in Dallas, Texas. There was a city councilman there in the 70's > and 80's named Max Goldblat. Often considered a whacko, he had the best > idea for the financial support of the then-theoretical Dallas-Area Rapid > Transit (DART): build the big stations at shopping malls. People get on and > off the train at these shopping centers. The businesses benefit from the > constant flow of passengers who stop and shop, and the trains get financing > from the mall owners and maintenance on the station. It seemed to make > beautiful sense and had support in the community from citizens and > businesses. The DART Board (what and apt name) never gave the issue serious > thought and went right on with their limited vision. > > Oh, well, in a 100 years most of us will be dead and someone else will get > to blame us for lack of vision as they suffer the strictures of such a > legacy. People will still fall in love and sunsets will still be golden. I > hope. > > -- > Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) | Systems Administrator, Thurman Ind, Bothell, WA > North Bend, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington > scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir > scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Thu Dec 30 23:56:45 1999 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 23:56:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I concur. You make a valid and basic point. Perhaps the problem is the voters rather than the politicians. However, the process is not a balanced one. The pols have the communication channels and the loopholes; the voters can't really keep up with the more than a couple of the main issues, so the pols generally have a free hand. Thanks. Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 30 Dec 1999, Kenneth Crandall wrote: > Hi Rich, > > Thanks for your feedback. I think you misunderstood my last point. it was > my intent to indicate that people can remove politicians who will not listen > via the ballot box. It would have been more clear if I had said throw the > Bums out! If you don't vote as if Finance Reform is important, then we > will never get the reform. > > Ken C > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rich Littleton [mailto:be718 at scn.org] > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 12:26 AM > To: Kenneth Crandall > Cc: Scot Harkins on SCN.org; scn at scn.org > Subject: RE: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard > > > > Ken makes some good points, so I've done an interlineated response belowe. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > On Mon, 27 Dec 1999, Kenneth Crandall wrote: > > > Hi, > > > ( > > > > When politicians believe that people require finance reform, we will get > it! > > Make it an issue when you vote. > > Ken, I would place a 100% disagreement on the table here. Polls have > shown that the people want campaign finance reform, and congress (esp. > Republicans) have done everything but go in that direction. There is an > all-too-human tendancy for people who hold power to resist the populace's > efforts to share that power. (...even happens in SCNA) As long as a > decision-maker can get more control by consolidating power, the will of > the electorate will lose. (See our local examples where Washington > politicians re-ran an election when the stadium lost once, thereby going > directly against the will of the voters, and see that, even though voters > passed an initiative for extending the monorail, the efforts go everywhere > else. > > So I think politicians deliberately ignore the voters if there is more > benefit to the politicians in ignoring those voters. > > > > Good points made, Ken. Thanks. > > Rich > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Rich > > Littleton > > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 12:45 PM > > To: Scot Harkins on SCN.org > > Cc: scn at scn.org > > Subject: Re: FWD: ANTI-WTO: Don't throw the radicals overboard > > > > > > > > I second what Scot said. > > > > I'll add one item. > > > > Back in the 60s, when I was state coordinator for Nebraskans For Peace, we > > got a report on non-violence. It said that the organizations that use > > violence generally get more done. > > > > I was bothered by this report and would like to see a well-researched > > counter report. > > > > However, note the complete lack of progress in getting campaign finance > > reform. (Complete lack!!!) Maybe we should send a note to the Eugene > > people and suggest that they visit Wash. D.C. > > > > later, > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Fri Dec 31 18:35:26 1999 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 18:35:26 -0800 Subject: Privacy Message-ID: <200001010235.SAA23920@scn.org> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3170 bytes Desc: not available URL: