From be718 at scn.org Mon Nov 1 22:03:28 1999 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:03:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: File space increase, volunteer recognition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rod's clarification is a good one. On Sun, 31 Oct 1999, Rod Clark wrote: > Rich Littleton wrote: > > ... I was saying that, when the board had the chance to support > > volunteers as volunteers by giveing them more space, the board > > declined. Instead, the board said it would give all users more > > space, which is a good thing, but the board had no interest in > > showing any appreciation for the volunteers. > > Rich, > > We did consider giving more space to volunteers and not to > all users, as you suggested. We also considered others' > suggestions to give all users more file space. One proposal was > to increase the 1 Mb limit to 2 Mb. Another was to increase it > to 5 Mb. After some discussion, we decided to increase it to 5 > Mb, not only for selected volunteers but for everyone. Major Point: I do not intend to reverse the board decision to give expanded space to all users. I simply realized that the board had passed up a chance to recognize volunteers generally. Proposal: Give all ACTIVE volunteers 10 megabytes of space. (snip) > > A few months ago, Gianni asked each of the committee heads to > pick some volunteers to recognize. Not everyone agreed on what > form that recognition should take (for example, someone > suggested office supplies with people's names on them - not a > universally admired suggestion), and it wasn't ready for the > picnic. So that will be rethought later. > 1. See proposal above, for all vols. 2. Do a dinner -- paid for my SCNA -- for all vols and a guest at the fare share restaurant, twice yearly. 2. At least do a certificate of recognition for vols who have done something extraordinary. (I will submit a name to the board soon of a volunteer SCNA should recognize.) But, DO something! Rich * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Wed Nov 3 22:49:15 1999 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:49:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: File space increase, volunteer recognition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was going to respond to the message (below) from Rod, but then realized it was just an excercise in "can't-do-nuthin-no-way-no-how" and let it go. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Rod Clark wrote: > > Proposal: > > Give all ACTIVE volunteers 10 megabytes of space. > > Rich, > > The list of active volunteers is constantly shifting. There > are probably several hundred people who have been active > volunteers at some time, but aren't now. If this were to be a > perk for active volunteers, then the accounts would revert to > regular acounts as people dropped off the active list that the > system would check to allow increased filespace. For anyone with > > 5 Mb of files, the FreePort system would then disable their > mail access as being over the then lowered limit. It would take > sysadm monitoring and followup account-fixing to deal with some > of these, and probably multiple followups for quite a few of > them. System administration is a scarce resource and is > currently backlogged from now well into next year. Creating a > new kind of exception processing that would cause both sysadms > and volunteers administrative headaches might not be an ideal > situation. > > > 2. Do a dinner -- paid for my SCNA -- for all vols and a guest at the > > fare share restaurant, twice yearly. > > The Services Committee has had an annual dinner in December > at Common Meals for several years, which has been well attended. > So far, we've paid for our own meals there. It's probably in the > planning stages again for this year. > > There was a good attendance at this fall's potluck picnic at > Woodland Park. > > > 2. At least do a certificate of recognition for vols who have done > > something extraordinary. (I will submit a name to the board soon of a > > volunteer SCNA should recognize.) > > I expect that the 1999 letters of recognition will be out by > the end of the year. > > > But, DO something! > > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Thu Nov 4 14:26:40 1999 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 14:26:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: File space increase, volunteer recognition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How about giving this frustrated volunteer more space and more importantly, a way to get around the system at Henry -- 45 minutes per 24 hours. If there are no patrons waiting to use computers, I usually can coerce the staff to let me use their dummy card, but that is becoming a giant pain in the (*&%?$) expletive deleted. Right now, the system keeps telling me I am using too much space, but I never get enough time to clean house. Thanx, Irene The Very Good Witch ### On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, Rich Littleton wrote: > > I was going to respond to the message (below) from Rod, but then realized > it was just an excercise in "can't-do-nuthin-no-way-no-how" and let it go. > > Rich > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Rod Clark wrote: > > > > Proposal: > > > Give all ACTIVE volunteers 10 megabytes of space. > > > > Rich, > > > > The list of active volunteers is constantly shifting. There > > are probably several hundred people who have been active > > volunteers at some time, but aren't now. If this were to be a > > perk for active volunteers, then the accounts would revert to > > regular acounts as people dropped off the active list that the > > system would check to allow increased filespace. For anyone with > > > 5 Mb of files, the FreePort system would then disable their > > mail access as being over the then lowered limit. It would take > > sysadm monitoring and followup account-fixing to deal with some > > of these, and probably multiple followups for quite a few of > > them. System administration is a scarce resource and is > > currently backlogged from now well into next year. Creating a > > new kind of exception processing that would cause both sysadms > > and volunteers administrative headaches might not be an ideal > > situation. > > > > > 2. Do a dinner -- paid for my SCNA -- for all vols and a guest at the > > > fare share restaurant, twice yearly. > > > > The Services Committee has had an annual dinner in December > > at Common Meals for several years, which has been well attended. > > So far, we've paid for our own meals there. It's probably in the > > planning stages again for this year. > > > > There was a good attendance at this fall's potluck picnic at > > Woodland Park. > > > > > 2. At least do a certificate of recognition for vols who have done > > > something extraordinary. (I will submit a name to the board soon of a > > > volunteer SCNA should recognize.) > > > > I expect that the 1999 letters of recognition will be out by > > the end of the year. > > > > > But, DO something! > > > > > Rod Clark > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Sat Nov 6 03:08:28 1999 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 03:08:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: File space increase, volunteer recognition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Allen made a good point when he replied to my urging that volunteers get "bonus space." He asked if we would take away the extra space once the vol. was no longer active. My answer: Yes. If X is no longer meeting the minimum for being an "active" vol (I think that is 20 hours a year), then I have no problem discontinuing the benefit. Allen implies another good point. How the hell do we monitor the active-non-active status of all our vols. My answer: The committee coordinators do it. The coordinators are ALREADY responsible for following the progress of the various committee tasks. He/she can easily send in periodic notations to the volunteer committee listing who has been active. In the e-mail committee, for example, the vols. provide that information to the coordinator monthly simply by putting their names on the signup list. The e-mail coordinator has it easy; he can simply forward the scheduling message to the volunteer committee. Jim Haskins already prepared a database of all the volunteers (back in Jan.-March) for the volunteer committee. So it would be a small matter to "check off" the incoming names. Any name not showing up for a year would lose the extra space on the system. Allen implies yet another good question. (Actually, he asked it directly.) Do we just rip the space out of the hands of the formerly active volunteer? My answer is: No. We send them a notice of their pending change of status. Hopefully, this would trigger some of them to "re-up" (get active again) to keep the bonus space. But, if the person could no longer commit to actively volunteering, we would eventually (with notice first, as mentioned) cut off the extra space. Not rocket science. You get the benefit if you put more into running SCN. If you don't put that "more" into SCN, you get the normal user's space. Any more questions? (And I'm waiting for the eternal chant: "We don't have enough volunteers .....", so make my day and ask that one.) Rich ______________________________________________________________________ I'm really very easy to get along with, once people just learn to worship me. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From janossz at scn.org Sat Nov 6 17:18:03 1999 From: janossz at scn.org (Janos Szablya) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 17:18:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: File space increase, volunteer recognition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 20 hours? there are weeks when voice mail can take over 20 hours... A more managable number would be 52 hours a mere hour per week... or if you are teaching then... 78 hours If your on a committee the.... what life? Before we start on how to reward people how about defining people.. I mean volenteer an "Active Volenteer" in any given arena must be devided into levels...in order to reward... but now we have the inequity of a classed system of reward and benifits. I do not volenteer for the "perks" I do it because.... oh my here it comes... I got a vanity account and didn't pay the $10 dollars.... so I've spent the last, way too many years, making up for it.. I volenteer because it's fun and it has wonerful rewards when you feel the joy of someone getting "hooked up" with children or friends. I hope that after a few more years I'll also learn to spell volunteer, but until then I'll just keep volenteering... Janos * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Sun Nov 7 11:28:59 1999 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:28:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: File space increase, volunteer recognition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Janos Szablya wrote: > > 20 hours? there are weeks when voice mail can take over 20 hours... > > A more managable number would be 52 hours a mere hour per week... > > or if you are teaching then... 78 hours > > If your on a committee the.... what life? You raise a good point (blast your hide...), but you're not going to drag me out in front of the shooting gallery on this one. My kevlar is already wearing out. > > Before we start on how to reward people how about defining people.. > I mean volenteer > an "Active Volenteer" in any given arena must be devided into levels...in > order to reward... but now we have the inequity of a classed system of > reward and benifits. Yeah, but... Then you have to have the vols to handle this complexity. Given the apparent poor priority given vols. in our beloved org., it might the the next millenium (3,000) before we reach the needed number.(However, I hasten to add that the recent MOTD call for vol (a poem) has begun bringing in people. Good start.) > I do not volenteer for the "perks" I do it because.... oh my here it > comes... I got a vanity account and didn't pay the $10 dollars.... so > I've spent the last, way too many years, making up for it.. I laughed out loud at this. Ah, guilt! Where WOULD we be without it. Actually, Janos, be comforted. The universe is in balance. I misunderstood and paid $15 dollars for a randome (be718) account. So the Cyber Gods have been appeased. Actually, I think that (watch this convoluted phrasing) everyone doesn't volunteer for the perks. However, a vol. might be more inclined to stick with it if there is (a) some sort of group reality to the group the vol. is in, (b) some ongoing benefit. You are right, one cannot BUY vols. > I volenteer because it's fun and it has wonerful rewards when you feel the > joy of someone getting "hooked up" with children or friends. Amen, hombre. But admit it; one perk you get is being tossed into these roiling arguments on the lists wherein your mental agility is tested. Adrenalin junky! > > I hope that after a few more years I'll also learn to spell volunteer, but > until then I'll just keep volenteering... I'm standing in the same que. Why do you think I abbreviate it? Later, Rich * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bd166 at scn.org Sun Nov 7 12:21:52 1999 From: bd166 at scn.org (bd166 at scn.org) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 12:21:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: File space increase, volunteer recognition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I second whatever JS said... it was close enough. Alan On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Janos Szablya wrote: > Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 17:18:03 -0800 (PST) > From: Janos Szablya > To: Rich Littleton > Cc: scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: File space increase, volunteer recognition > 20 hours? there are weeks when voice mail can take over 20 hours... > Before we start on how to reward people how about defining people.. > I mean volenteer > an "Active Volenteer" in any given arena must be devided into levels...in > order to reward... but now we have the inequity of a classed system of > reward and benifits. > I do not volenteer for the "perks" I do it because.... oh my here it * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From janossz at scn.org Mon Nov 8 22:33:08 1999 From: janossz at scn.org (Janos Szablya) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:33:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: File space increase, volunteer recognition In-Reply-To: <01BF29C5.3484FC90.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: Joe Relax My comments were tounge in cheek, A long time ago I had suggested that there be a formula for definining active volunteers (gosh I spelled it right, volenteeres not defining) based on service and a goodly amount oftime off. periodically it has been brought up through other topics.... The additional space administration is next to impossible at this point in time as is the administration of my formula.... I don't want to do it and it would be easy to do less the complaints... and all I suggest is a way to define.. My coments were related to the absurdity of pin point identidy of a volenteer tracking hours at this point for anything except for in-kind grant applications . Which if you have not yet done please do. In no are we about to blackmail people into staying with us.. Please accept my apoligise for any misunderstanding (and typos)hat this comment regarding a long series of notes may have caused you and other listeners to KSCN. Janos On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Joe Mabel wrote: > Most people will use space for web postings. If their stuff is any good, > people will link to it. Are you saying we're going to make them move it > away and break links if they stop being active? This seems really silly to > me. At least they need to have some option to pay something nominal to > leave it there. Otherwise, again, no one who is serious about this will use > SCN to post their stuff. > > Are you going to remove good content because its author moves away? or > dies? > > JM > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rich Littleton [SMTP:be718 at scn.org] > Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 3:08 AM > To: allen > Cc: Rod Clark; Janos Szablya; scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: File space increase, volunteer recognition > > > Allen made a good point when he replied to my urging that volunteers get > "bonus space." He asked if we would take away the extra space once the > vol. was no longer active. > > My answer: Yes. > > If X is no longer meeting the minimum for being an "active" vol (I think > that is 20 hours a year), then I have no problem discontinuing the > benefit. > > Allen implies another good point. How the hell do we monitor the > active-non-active status of all our vols. > > My answer: The committee coordinators do it. The coordinators are > ALREADY responsible for following the progress of the various committee > tasks. He/she can easily send in periodic notations to the volunteer > committee listing who has been active. In the e-mail committee, for > example, the vols. provide that information to the coordinator monthly > simply by putting their names on the signup list. The e-mail coordinator > has it easy; he can simply forward the scheduling message to the > volunteer committee. > > Jim Haskins already prepared a database of all the volunteers (back in > Jan.-March) for the volunteer committee. So it would be a small matter to > "check off" the incoming names. Any name not showing up for a year would > lose the extra space on the system. > > > Allen implies yet another good question. (Actually, he asked it directly.) > Do we just rip the space out of the hands of the formerly active > volunteer? > > My answer is: No. We send them a notice of their pending change of > status. Hopefully, this would trigger some of them to "re-up" (get active > again) to keep the bonus space. > > But, if the person could no longer commit to actively volunteering, we > would eventually (with notice first, as mentioned) cut off the extra > space. > > > Not rocket science. You get the benefit if you put more into running SCN. > If you don't put that "more" into SCN, you get the normal user's space. > > Any more questions? (And I'm waiting for the eternal chant: "We don't > have enough volunteers .....", so make my day and ask that one.) > > Rich > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > I'm really very easy to get along with, > once people just learn to worship me. > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From femme2 at scn.org Tue Nov 9 14:12:57 1999 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:12:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alternative Media Message-ID: For those of you interested in audio/video on the Web -- There's a meeting tonight at the old Glen Hotel -- just north of Benaroya Hall at 1415 Third Ave. -- at 7:00 PM. Sorry for the late notice -- I heard about it only 5 minutes ago. They are looking for volunteers to help with computer stuff, as well as security, suggestions for content during the WTO ministerial... Should be interesting. Please spread the news. Lorraine Pozzi femme2 at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Tue Nov 9 16:24:35 1999 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:24:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: File space increase, volunteer recognition In-Reply-To: <01BF29C5.3484FC90.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: Smilin' Joe, If this were all up to me, I'd definitely find some way to give some sore of perk to vols. WHO ARE ACTIVE. However, we are just tossing ideas out on the table here. You make some good points, but the point of your points should be "how beef up the vol. experience." If a vols. dropped back from 10 to 5 megs, presumably the lost 5 could come out of e-mail space, and I doubt that you'd have much sympathy for someone who insisted in storing ca. 5 megs of back mail on the SCN system. Any such reduction would occur over time so the (former) vol. could adjust things. Whatever perks would go with active vols, they should be retractible. Sort of like getting access to the color printer at night if you are working extra hours on a project. Another alternative that I've suggtested (last year) would be to eliminate the 45 minute limit. So, now it's your turn. What do YOU think might be an effective way to spread a sense of being "on the team" for vols laboring in the cyber vineyards? Again, it is clear to all of us that you don't want to even try to "buy" vols. But, we are operating way under strength (and have for years). So, as clever as we all are, we should be able to come up with ways to bring in the troops. Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ And your cry-baby, whiney-assed opinion would be.....? -- Anon. On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Joe Mabel wrote: > Most people will use space for web postings. If their stuff is any good, > people will link to it. Are you saying we're going to make them move it > away and break links if they stop being active? This seems really silly to > me. At least they need to have some option to pay something nominal to > leave it there. Otherwise, again, no one who is serious about this will use > SCN to post their stuff. > > Are you going to remove good content because its author moves away? or > dies? > > JM > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rich Littleton [SMTP:be718 at scn.org] > Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 3:08 AM > To: allen > Cc: Rod Clark; Janos Szablya; scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: File space increase, volunteer recognition > > > Allen made a good point when he replied to my urging that volunteers get > "bonus space." He asked if we would take away the extra space once the > vol. was no longer active. > > My answer: Yes. > > If X is no longer meeting the minimum for being an "active" vol (I think > that is 20 hours a year), then I have no problem discontinuing the > benefit. > > Allen implies another good point. How the hell do we monitor the > active-non-active status of all our vols. > > My answer: The committee coordinators do it. The coordinators are > ALREADY responsible for following the progress of the various committee > tasks. He/she can easily send in periodic notations to the volunteer > committee listing who has been active. In the e-mail committee, for > example, the vols. provide that information to the coordinator monthly > simply by putting their names on the signup list. The e-mail coordinator > has it easy; he can simply forward the scheduling message to the > volunteer committee. > > Jim Haskins already prepared a database of all the volunteers (back in > Jan.-March) for the volunteer committee. So it would be a small matter to > "check off" the incoming names. Any name not showing up for a year would > lose the extra space on the system. > > > Allen implies yet another good question. (Actually, he asked it directly.) > Do we just rip the space out of the hands of the formerly active > volunteer? > > My answer is: No. We send them a notice of their pending change of > status. Hopefully, this would trigger some of them to "re-up" (get active > again) to keep the bonus space. > > But, if the person could no longer commit to actively volunteering, we > would eventually (with notice first, as mentioned) cut off the extra > space. > > > Not rocket science. You get the benefit if you put more into running SCN. > If you don't put that "more" into SCN, you get the normal user's space. > > Any more questions? (And I'm waiting for the eternal chant: "We don't > have enough volunteers .....", so make my day and ask that one.) > > Rich > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > I'm really very easy to get along with, > once people just learn to worship me. > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Tue Nov 9 16:36:09 1999 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:36:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: File space increase, volunteer recognition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What!!!???? No blackmailing??!1 Well, "pooh," is all I can say. (Hrmph!) ______________________________________________________________________ And your cry-baby, whiney-assed opinion would be.....? -- Anon. On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Janos Szablya wrote: > Joe > Relax > My comments were tounge in cheek, > > A long time ago I had suggested that there be a formula for definining > active volunteers (gosh I spelled it right, volenteeres not defining) > based on service and a goodly amount oftime off. periodically it has been > brought up through other topics.... > > The additional space administration is next to impossible at this point in > time as is the administration of my formula.... I don't want to do it and > it would be easy to do less the complaints... and all I suggest is a way > to define.. > > My coments were related to the absurdity of pin point identidy of a > volenteer tracking hours at this point for anything except for in-kind > grant applications . Which if you have not yet done please do. > > In no are we about to blackmail people into staying with us.. > > Please accept my apoligise for any misunderstanding (and typos)hat this > comment regarding a long series of notes may have caused you and other > listeners to KSCN. > > Janos > > > On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > Most people will use space for web postings. If their stuff is any good, > > people will link to it. Are you saying we're going to make them move it > > away and break links if they stop being active? This seems really silly to > > me. At least they need to have some option to pay something nominal to > > leave it there. Otherwise, again, no one who is serious about this will use > > SCN to post their stuff. > > > > Are you going to remove good content because its author moves away? or > > dies? > > > > JM > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rich Littleton [SMTP:be718 at scn.org] > > Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 3:08 AM > > To: allen > > Cc: Rod Clark; Janos Szablya; scn at scn.org > > Subject: Re: File space increase, volunteer recognition > > > > > > Allen made a good point when he replied to my urging that volunteers get > > "bonus space." He asked if we would take away the extra space once the > > vol. was no longer active. > > > > My answer: Yes. > > > > If X is no longer meeting the minimum for being an "active" vol (I think > > that is 20 hours a year), then I have no problem discontinuing the > > benefit. > > > > Allen implies another good point. How the hell do we monitor the > > active-non-active status of all our vols. > > > > My answer: The committee coordinators do it. The coordinators are > > ALREADY responsible for following the progress of the various committee > > tasks. He/she can easily send in periodic notations to the volunteer > > committee listing who has been active. In the e-mail committee, for > > example, the vols. provide that information to the coordinator monthly > > simply by putting their names on the signup list. The e-mail coordinator > > has it easy; he can simply forward the scheduling message to the > > volunteer committee. > > > > Jim Haskins already prepared a database of all the volunteers (back in > > Jan.-March) for the volunteer committee. So it would be a small matter to > > "check off" the incoming names. Any name not showing up for a year would > > lose the extra space on the system. > > > > > > Allen implies yet another good question. (Actually, he asked it directly.) > > Do we just rip the space out of the hands of the formerly active > > volunteer? > > > > My answer is: No. We send them a notice of their pending change of > > status. Hopefully, this would trigger some of them to "re-up" (get active > > again) to keep the bonus space. > > > > But, if the person could no longer commit to actively volunteering, we > > would eventually (with notice first, as mentioned) cut off the extra > > space. > > > > > > Not rocket science. You get the benefit if you put more into running SCN. > > If you don't put that "more" into SCN, you get the normal user's space. > > > > Any more questions? (And I'm waiting for the eternal chant: "We don't > > have enough volunteers .....", so make my day and ask that one.) > > > > Rich > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > I'm really very easy to get along with, > > once people just learn to worship me. > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From dichter at scn.org Sun Nov 14 09:25:05 1999 From: dichter at scn.org (Burke Dykes) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:25:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is anyone recycling computers for charities? Message-ID: I had a call from someone connected with a convelescent/mental health home in Bellingham to the effect that they would really appreciate the donation of one, or possibly more, older computers. Is SCN actively doing anything along these lines? It seems to me that there are a lot of older computers (and software) being thrown away -- and at the same time there are people who cannot afford even the cheapest computer and software. Burke ================================================================= From: Burke Dykes | I have gone out to look for myself. In: West Seattle, WA | If I should return before I get back, AKA: burked at eskimo.com | hold me until I get here. ================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at aa.net Sun Nov 14 23:14:21 1999 From: sharma at aa.net (Sharma) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 23:14:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is anyone recycling computers for charities? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Several of us were recylcling older computers, collecting them and passing them on to people who could not afford them, seniors, kids, etc. It became more than I could deal with as it is a problem to also get donated appropriate software and help the people set them up and so forth. I also became buried in pieces of old computers that were no longer viable, i.e. 40-60 meg harddrives, 1200 baud modems, and so on. So I stopped. I have not done a final count but estimate I personally placed about 100 computers before I felt the need to bail. CAMP/ROPE and the Computer Bank Charity are still doing it, and someone reading this SCN list could start an listserv where people and organizations needing computers or assistance with computers could post what they need. I do not have the time to do it. I recommend to people who ask me if I know where they can find an older computer - ask every person they meet for a week if they know anyone who is looking for a home for their older computer. They will likely be pleasantly surprised to find someone nearby who has one they will donate. Sorry I could not be of more assistance. Cheers, -sharma On Sun, 14 Nov 1999, Burke Dykes wrote: > I had a call from someone connected with a convelescent/mental health home > in Bellingham to the effect that they would really appreciate the donation > of one, or possibly more, older computers. > > Is SCN actively doing anything along these lines? It seems to me that > there are a lot of older computers (and software) being thrown away -- and > at the same time there are people who cannot afford even the cheapest > computer and software. > > Burke > > ================================================================= > From: Burke Dykes | I have gone out to look for myself. > In: West Seattle, WA | If I should return before I get back, > AKA: burked at eskimo.com | hold me until I get here. > ================================================================= > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Sun Nov 14 23:54:47 1999 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 23:54:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is anyone recycling computers for charities? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This was a very informative reply. Thanks, Sharma. The CAMP/ROPE referred to by Sharma is a location is the site at which Ti Locke does her computer distribution. Her e-mail address is: lockt at kcts.org. Anyone (a) with computer equipment; (b) needing computer equipment; or (c) wanting to assist in this sort of effort; can contact Ti. Sharma, if you make an inventory of the equipment you have left over from your effort, MAYBE some of it can be moved by Ti. She did a couple of calls for people to come and take equipment (software, odds & ends of hardware, etc.) she had on hand. She might be able to reduce your leftover "inventory." Later, Rich ______________________________________________________________________ On Sun, 14 Nov 1999, Sharma wrote: > > > Several of us were recylcling older computers, collecting them and passing > them on to people who could not afford them, seniors, kids, etc. It became > more than I could deal with as it is a problem to also get donated > appropriate software and help the people set them up and so forth. I also > became buried in pieces of old computers that were no longer viable, i.e. > 40-60 meg harddrives, 1200 baud modems, and so on. So I stopped. I have > not done a final count but estimate I personally placed about 100 > computers before I felt the need to bail. > > CAMP/ROPE and the Computer Bank Charity are still doing it, and someone > reading this SCN list could start an listserv where people and > organizations needing computers or assistance with computers could post > what they need. I do not have the time to do it. > > I recommend to people who ask me if I know where they can find an older > computer - ask every person they meet for a week if they know anyone who > is looking for a home for their older computer. They will likely be > pleasantly surprised to find someone nearby who has one they will donate. > > Sorry I could not be of more assistance. > > Cheers, > > -sharma > > > On Sun, 14 Nov 1999, Burke Dykes wrote: > > > I had a call from someone connected with a convelescent/mental health home > > in Bellingham to the effect that they would really appreciate the donation > > of one, or possibly more, older computers. > > > > Is SCN actively doing anything along these lines? It seems to me that > > there are a lot of older computers (and software) being thrown away -- and > > at the same time there are people who cannot afford even the cheapest > > computer and software. > > > > Burke > > > > ================================================================= > > From: Burke Dykes | I have gone out to look for myself. > > In: West Seattle, WA | If I should return before I get back, > > AKA: burked at eskimo.com | hold me until I get here. > > ================================================================= > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From rockybay at scn.org Mon Nov 15 00:13:07 1999 From: rockybay at scn.org (Malcolm Taran) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 00:13:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is anyone recycling computers for charities? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is one, though indirect. There may be others. Easter Seals Society has just such a program. Easter Seals and others arrange donations, largely corporate but individual also. Easter Seals provides a screening system based on need, particularly disability, and provides the shop space for configuration. Volunteers provide shop services and field mentors. I am an e-mail training (EMT) volunteer with SCN; I also volunteer with Komputer Enthusiasts of Greater Seattle (KEGS) at the Easter Seals Society Center, lower Queen Anne. KEGS provides the shop services volunteers. SCN participation with KEGS is presently nascent: there are potential mutual benefits. As far as I am aware, the primary limitation so far is availability of volunteers. The program above is a small scale operation, and primarily for the same limitation. ------------ I have a couple key contacts, but I'd prefer to provide those directly; let me know. Malcolm Taran * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From rockybay at scn.org Mon Nov 15 00:29:24 1999 From: rockybay at scn.org (Malcolm Taran) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 00:29:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is anyone recycling computers for charities? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi If you still have leftovers, I volunteer at Easter Seals Society in their program placing computers. We use any hardware or components equal or newer than 486-66 and software compatible with or newer than Windows 3. I think 14400 is the slowest modem we still send out, and 100MB for secondary drives. I called in the last couple weeks, Goodwill still accepts anything 386 or newer. I've contacted Ti Locke as well. Malcolm Taran * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Mon Nov 15 15:04:38 1999 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:04:38 -0800 Subject: Privacy and the NSA Message-ID: <199911152309.PAA19731@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes ========================== The most secret of secret agencies operates under outdated laws by James Bamford (WA Post)---On the Yorkshire moors in northern England, dozens of enormous white globes sit like a moon base, each one hiding a dish- shaped antenna aimed at a satellite. Acres of buildings house advanced computers and receiving equipment, while tall fences and roving guards keep the curious at a distance. Known as Menwith Hill station, it is one of the most secret pieces of real estate on Earth. It is also becoming one of the most controversial. For decades, Menwith Hill has been the key link in a worldwide eavesdropping network operated by America's super-secret National Security Agency (NSA), the agency responsible, among other things, for electronic surveillance and code breaking. It is the NSA's largest listening post anywhere in the world. During the Cold War, the station played a major role in the West's ability to monitor the diplomatic, military and commercial communication behind the Iron Curtain. But rather than shrinking in the decade since the fall of the Berlin Wall, Menwith Hill has grown. People in Europe and the United States are beginning to ask why. Has the NSA turned from eavesdropping on the communists to eavesdropping on businesses and private citizens in Europe and the United States? The concerns have arisen because of the existence of a sophisticated network linking the NSA and the spy agencies of several other nations. The NSA will not confirm the existence of the project, code-named Echelon. The allegations are serious. A report by the European Parliament has gone so far as to say "within Europe all e-mail, telephone and fax communications are routinely intercepted" by the NSA. As one of the few outsiders who have followed the agency for years, I think the concerns are overblown--so far. Based on everything I know about the agency, and countless conversations with current and former NSA personnel, I am certain that the NSA is not overstepping its mandate. But that doesn't mean it won't. My real concern is that the technologies it is developing behind closed doors, and the methods that have given rise to such fears, have given the agency the ability to extend its eavesdropping network almost without limits. And as the NSA speeds ahead in its development of satellites and computers powerful enough to sift through mountains of intercepted data, the federal laws (now a quarter-century old) that regulate the agency are still at the starting gate. The communications revolution--and all the new electronic devices susceptible to monitoring--came long after the primary legislation governing the NSA. The controversy comes at an interesting time. Throughout much of the intelligence community, the cloak of secrecy is being pulled back. The CIA recently sponsored a well-publicized reunion of former American spies in Berlin and is planning a public symposium on intelligence during the Cold War later this month in Texas. Even the National Reconnaissance Office, once so secret that even its name was classified, now offers millions of pages of documents and decades of spy satellite imagery to anyone with the time and interest to review them. The NSA is the exception. As more and more questions are being raised about its activities, the agency is pulling its cloak even tighter. It is obsessively secretive. Last spring, for the first time, it denied a routine request for internal procedural information from a congressional intelligence committee. Headquartered at Fort Meade, halfway between Washington and Baltimore, the NSA is by far America's largest spy agency. It has about 38,000 military and civilian employees around the world; the CIA, roughly 17,000. The agency's mandate is to monitor communications and break codes overseas; it also has a limited domestic role, with targets such as foreign embassies. It can monitor American citizens suspected of espionage with a warrant from a special court. It is potentially the most intrusive spy agency. Where scores of books have been written about the CIA, the only book exclusively on the NSA is the one I wrote in 1982. Echelon, which links the NSA to its counterparts in the U.K., Canada, Australia and New Zealand, amounts to a global listening network. With it, those agencies are able to sift through great quantities of communications intercepted by satellites and ground stations around the world, using computers that search for specific names, words or phrases. Whether the NSA will go too far with Echelon is not an idle question. In the mid-1970s, the Senate and House Select Committees on Intelligence were created in part as a result of NSA violations. For decades, the NSA had secretly and illegally gained access to millions of private telegrams and telephone calls in the United States. The agency acted as though the laws that applied to the rest of government did not apply to it. Based on the findings of a commission appointed by President Ford, the Justice Department launched an unusually secret criminal investigation of the agency, known only to a handful of people. Senior NSA officials were read Miranda warnings and interrogated. It was the first time the Justice Department had ever treated an entire federal agency as a suspect in a criminal investigation. Eventually, despite finding numerous grounds on which to go forward with prosecution, Justice attorneys recommended against it. "There is the specter," said their report, which the government still considers classified, "in the event of prosecution, that there is likely to be much 'buck-passing' from subordinate to superior, agency to agency, agency to board or committee, board or committee to the President, and from the living to the dead." As a result of the investigations, Congress in 1978 passed the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which stated in black and white what the NSA could and could not do. To overcome the NSA's insistence that its activities were too secret to be discussed before judges, Congress created a special federal court, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, to hear requests for warrants for national security eavesdropping. In case the court ever turned down an NSA request, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Appeals Court was created. It has never heard a case. In the more than two decades since the FISA was passed, the law has remained largely static, while cell phones, e-mail, faxes and the Internet have come to dominate how we communicate. The point hasn't been lost on the NSA. Last month, Air Force Lt. Gen. Michael Hayden, director of the NSA, gave a speech inside the agency. I was one of the few outsiders invited to attend. Hayden warned of the "new challenges" in "information technology" that the agency now faces. "The scale of change is alarmingly rapid," he said, noting that "the world now contains 40 million cell phones, 14 million fax machines, 180 million computers, and the Internet doubles every 90 days." That's not all Hayden acknowledged. He had just returned from England, he said, where he had met with colleagues at Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ), Britain's equivalent of the NSA. He added that they had renewed a long-standing commitment to work together. No director had ever spoken publicly of that close partnership. "We must go back to our roots with GCHQ," Hayden said. The cooperation between the Echelon countries is worrying. For decades, these organizations have worked closely together, monitoring communications and sharing the information gathered. Now, through Echelon, they are pooling their resources and targets, maximizing the collection and analysis of intercepted information. Officials from many of the European Union countries fear that the NSA may be stealing their companies' economic secrets and passing them on to American competitors. "We're hoping we can use our position to alert other parliaments and people throughout the European Union as to what's going on," Glyn Ford, a member of the European Parliament, told the BBC. "Hopefully that will lead to a situation where some proper controls are instituted and that these things are done under controlled conditions." The issue has also caught the attention of the House and Senate intelligence committees, and the NSA's response has been anything but reassuring. As part of its normal oversight responsibilities, the House Select Committee on Intelligence last spring requested from the NSA a number of legal documents that outline the agency's procedures for its eavesdropping operations. The agency, in essence, told the committee to take a hike. It refused to release any of the documents based on a unique claim of "government attorney- client privilege." Despite repeated requests by the intelligence committee, the NSA insisted that those documents "are free from scrutiny by Congress." Eventually, after months of negotiation, the NSA complied. It is highly unlikely that Echelon is monitoring everyone everywhere, as critics claim. It would be impossible for the NSA to capture all communications. It has had personnel cutbacks in the past five years as its national security targets have increased in number: North Korean missile development, nuclear testing in India and Pakistan, the movement of suspected terrorists and so on. Listening in on European business to help American corporations would be a very low priority, and passing secret intercepts to companies would quickly be discovered. Still, the NSA's stonewalling of Congress should serve as a warning bell. Under Section 502 of the National Security Act of 1947, as amended, the heads of all U.S. spy agencies are obligated to furnish "any information or material concerning intelligence activities . . . which is requested by either of the intelligence committees in order to carry out its authorized responsibilities." Rep. Porter J. Goss (R- Fla.), the House committee's chairman and a former CIA officer, has long argued for a stronger intelligence community, and even he seemed stunned by the NSA's arrogance. The NSA's behavior, he said, "would seriously hobble the legislative oversight process contemplated by the Constitution." Rather than disappear further from view, the agency should publicly address these concerns, and the intelligence committees should hold hearings to update the laws governing the NSA and to close what now amount to loopholes. For example, the 1978 FISA prohibits the NSA from using its "electronic surveillance" technology to target American citizens. But that still leaves open the possibility that Britain's GCHQ or another foreign agency could target Americans and turn the data over to the NSA. Another problem is that the FISA appears not to apply to the NSA's monitoring of the Internet. While covering such things as "wire" and "radio" communications, there is no mention of "electronic communications," which is the legal term for communicating over the Internet as defined by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986. Worse, FISA applies only "under circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy." In the recent film, "Enemy of the State," the NSA was portrayed as an out-of-control agency listening in on unwitting citizens. As the nation begins a new century, congressional hearings to redefine the agency's boundaries are the best way to prevent life from imitating art. James Bamford, author of "The Puzzle Palace: A Report on America's Most Secret Agency" (Viking Penguin), is working on a new book about the NSA. Copyright 1999 The Washington Post Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Thu Nov 18 21:39:49 1999 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:39:49 -0800 Subject: Server wars Message-ID: <199911190544.VAA23198@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes ========================== Just how close did we come to a Net ruled by Microsoft? The "server wars" show a grim counterpart to the browser wars. by Tim O'Reilly Salon.com In the study of history, it is often the things you don't notice that make all the difference. Connie Willis' wonderful time-travel mystery, "To Say Nothing of the Dog," posits that the entire course of World War II might have depended on such small details as a cat saved from drowning, a missed train and a nosy church warden. In a similar way, I find myself fascinated by the untold story of what we might call the war for the Web. The Justice Department's antitrust suit and Judge Jackson's finding of fact have focused on how Microsoft used its operating system dominance to wrest control of the Web browser market from Netscape. Perhaps even more significant is the untold story of Microsoft's attempts to corner the Web server market. As someone whose company competes directly with Microsoft, (we sell a Web server called WebSite that runs on Windows NT, and we are active in promoting Perl, Linux and other open-source technologies), I've been privy to some of the not-so-small details that have guided the course of this recent history. And, it seems to me that if it weren't for the work of a small group of independent open-source software developers, the Justice Department intervention might have come too late not just for Netscape but the Web as a whole. In his findings Judge Jackson made the astute point that the browser is a kind of middleware and, though it uses the features of the operating system, it provides additional "applications programming interfaces" (API) of its own. The most familiar of these aren't APIs like Win32, which describes how to write programs for Windows, but rather languages and protocols like HTML, Javascript and HTTP. Anyone who runs a Web site is intimately familiar with the attempts by both Microsoft and Netscape to turn these open standards to their advantage by introducing proprietary incompatibilities into the version of HTML recognized by their browsers. But the APIs that have turned out to matter don't just reside in the browser. Judge Jackson's analysis completely avoided the server side of the equation -- and it is the server which has turned out to be the real next-generation platform. When Judge Jackson talks about applications and APIs, he's clearly still thinking about Office-style desktop applications residing on the PC, albeit running in the browser rather than directly on the native operating system. Yet the most interesting new applications of the past few years don't reside on the PC at all, but on remote Web servers. I'm talking about Amazon.com, eBay, E-Trade, Yahoo Maps and so on. The server side of the Web is the new platform that Microsoft was rightly afraid of. The government's case didn't focus on the server side because Microsoft doesn't hold a monopoly position there. Browser-access statistics prove fairly conclusively that even in Netscape's heyday, the majority of clients were running on the Windows platform. But on the server side, the dominant market share belonged -- and still belongs -- to UNIX-based servers, particularly the open-source Apache Web server and its derivatives. Microsoft might argue that the importance of Apache and server-side technologies like Perl, PHP and Java servlets demonstrate that competition abounds, and that as a result, Microsoft doesn't have an effective monopoly. But the situation is more complex than that. The company clearly has a monopoly on client-side operating systems and has consistently tried to use that monopoly to extend its leverage to any new platform it can. In fact, the rise of Microsoft's Internet Information Server (IIS) as the dominant Web server on NT shows much the same pattern as the rise of IE as the dominant browser: Microsoft got pole position by exercising its unique leverage as an operating system vendor. Originally IIS, Web server software that runs only on the NT operating system, was bundled "free" with a version of NT called NT Server. Web server vendors such as Netscape and O'Reilly responded by pointing out in our advertising and PR that if customers ran our third-party Web server software on NT Workstation (a less expensive version of NT, which came without the IIS Web server software), they would end up with a more powerful server than Microsoft's IIS running on NT Server -- and it would cost less too. Much as it had done by bundling the browser with Windows 98, Microsoft was bundling an application -- the IIS Web server -- as part of an operating system, (NT Server). But in this case, the company offered another version of the same operating system without the bundle, (NT Workstation). It seemed natural to competitors to offer our products on top of the version of the operating system that came without IIS. It did not, however, please Microsoft that we did so. In June 1996 Microsoft responded by changing the license to NT Workstation to prohibit its use as a server platform. (At first, the company went further, and actually crippled the version of TCP/IP provided in NT Workstation, but the outcry from users forced it to backtrack.) Microsoft argued, quite rightly, that it had the right to create two different versions of NT, with different price points, and different functionality. But the company went a step further, and used its operating system license (and more specifically the license to the parts of the operating system that implemented TCP/IP, an industry standard protocol) to prohibit the use of third-party applications that duplicated the functionality of Microsoft's more expensive platform. Microsoft's public rationale for the policy -- that it was protecting its customers because NT Workstation was not suitable for use as a server operating system -- was proven false by my colleague, former O'Reilly editor Andrew Schulman (working with Mark Russinovich). Shulman and Russinovich demonstrated that it was possible to convert NT Workstation to NT Server by changing only a few registry entries. NT Workstation contained all of the same program code as NT Server; the code was simply disabled, and some additional applications bundled. It's unfortunate that Judge Jackson wasn't aware of this 1996 use of the registry to suppress NT Server functionality in NT Workstation. He might have enjoyed the irony of Microsoft's complaint about a Justice Department attempt to disable Internet Explorer in Windows 98: "Microsoft contends that [the Justice Department consultant, Princeton University Professor Edward] Felten's prototype removal program does not remove Internet Explorer's Web browsing functionalities, but rather 'hides' those functionalities from the perspective of the user," reads paragraph 183 of Judge Jackson's findings. "In support of that contention, Microsoft points out that Felten's program removes only a small fraction of the code in Windows 98, so that the hard drive still contains almost all of the code that had been executed in the course of providing Internet Explorer's Web browsing functionalities." This is just what Microsoft itself did on NT three years earlier. If editing the registry to hide functionality, and offering two versions of an operating system -- one with, and one without a bundled application -- was an acceptable business strategy then, why was it not possible to do the same thing to produce a version of Windows 98 without an integrated browser? The main point is that in each case, Microsoft used its power over the operating system to tilt the playing field in its favor, doing its utmost to crush the competition in a hotly contested Internet application area. In the browser arena, Microsoft bundled a browser into the operating system that runs most of the world's PCs and then created obstacles for Netscape to package its browser on new PCs. In the server arena, Microsoft used a very similar tactic; it bundled the IIS Web server software with the NT operating system and then created roadblocks and financial disincentives for NT users to use alternate server applications. As a result, Microsoft was able to reserve the greatest slice of Web server space on NT for itself. But Microsoft's operating system is not nearly as entrenched in the server world as it is in that of the PC. So, once the company effectively blocked third-party Web server vendors on NT, Microsoft next set its sights not just on servers that ran NT, but on all Web servers. It was widely reported that during the summer of 1996 (that same summer that Microsoft revised its NT Workstation license to disallow its use as a server platform), Bill Gates told securities analysts that he considered Apache, rather than Netscape, to be his company's chief competitor in the Web server space. And of course, by then, he was right. Microsoft's IIS is today the number two Web server -- with 25 percent market share to Apache's 54 percent, according to an October survey conducted by Netcraft. But for the Justice Department scrutiny, might not Microsoft have mounted an all-out attack next on the open source technologies and open protocols of the Web? The infamous "Halloween Documents," internal Microsoft documents analyzing a possible response to Linux describe a strategy of "extending" the "commodity protocols" on which open source projects depend, as a way of denying open source an entry into the market. Whether or not the same tricks Microsoft used against Netscape in both the browser and server markets would have worked against Apache, we'll never know. However, it is clear that if not for Apache's continued dominance on the server side, the protocols and APIs on which the Web depends would have belonged almost entirely to Redmond. (The Apache Group's firm embrace of open standards is one of the great unsung stories of the Web, and a key part of the magic that has kept its innovation alive.) I don't think people realize just how close we came to a Microsoft- dominated Web. If Microsoft, having trounced Netscape, hadn't been surprised by the unexpected strength of Apache, Perl, FreeBSD and Linux, I can easily imagine a squeeze play on Web protocols and standards, which would have allowed Microsoft to dictate terms to the Web developers who are currently inventing the next generation of computer applications. It reminds me a bit of World War II. France (Netscape) has fallen, and the Battle of Britain is being fought for the Web, with the stalwart resistance of the Apache Group holding up the juggernaut till the rest of the free world can get its act together. Whether Linux and the rest of the open source movement, or the Justice Department and the courts, play the role of America, I leave to history to determine. Copyright © 1999 Salon.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Fri Nov 19 07:34:52 1999 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 07:34:52 -0800 Subject: WTO Message-ID: <199911191539.HAA03307@scn.org> -------Forwarded Message------- From: The Nation Magazine The Nation has just published its WTO special issue, now available at http://thenation.com. The issue looks to Seattle with John Nichols' survey of activist plans (from the AFL-CIO's march through downtown to a caravan of costumed turtles), Robert Weissman's tale of how the business community is getting ready for Seattle (no turtle costumes here but lots of money and access), Robert Borosage's dose of historical perspective, Cong. Dennis Kucinich's look at how the WTO handcuffs government from protecting consumers and establishing environmental standards, Sarah Anderson and John Cavanagh's debunking of ten myths regarding globalization and Doug Henwood's forum exploring the range of progressive thought regarding the WTO and globalization. The Nation will be in Seattle distributing this issue and participating in numerous other activities during the WTO week. We're co- sponsoring a debate on globalization at 7:30 on Tuesday, November 30 at Town Hall in Seattle. Ralph Nader, John Cavanagh and Vandana Shiva will face off against Jagdish Bhagwati, a prominent political scientist, Scott Allen, an executive at Procter & Gamble and David Aaron, an official in the Commerce Department. This will be at Town Hall in Seattle at 1119 8th Avenue. For tickets and information call 415-771-8094 or go to http://www.ifg.org. RadioNation will be broadcasting the debate along with a series of daily radio shows which we'll broadcast nationally over the NPR satellite. We're furiously trying to convince public radio stations to carry this programming so if you happen to work at a station or have any contacts at one, pls. pass this information on to the appropriate people. We're also going to be involved in many of the other events and marches at the summit. We'll be distributing our special WTO issue, passing out information on our website and radio show, offering discount subscriptions and recording interesting events and happenings. If you'll be in Seattle, please come visit us at the United Methodist Church. The Church will be the main arena for anti-WTO activities and the Nation will have a table there pretty much continuously during the week of November 29. But, whether you'll be there or not, please check out what's at http://www.thenation.com when you have a chance. And, if you find a particular article particularly interesting, please use our Email-To-A-Friend feature to send it along to someone else who also might appreciate it. Best regards, Peter Rothberg, Associate Publisher * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Fri Nov 19 17:07:06 1999 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:07:06 -0800 Subject: Web site design Message-ID: <199911200111.RAA14858@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes ======================= When Bad Design Elements Become the Standard (Jakob Nielsen's Alertbox: excerpts)---Web design is easy: If you are thinking about how to design a certain page element, all you have to do is to look at the twenty most-visited sites on the Internet and see how they do it. If 90% or more of the big sites do things in a single way, then this is the de-facto standard and you have to comply. Only deviate from a design standard if your alternative design has at least 100% higher measured usability. If 60-90% of the big sites do things in a single way, then this is a strong convention and you should comply unless your alternative design has at least 50% higher measured usability. If less than 60% of the big sites do things in a single way, then there are no dominant conventions yet and you are free to design in an alternative way. Even so, if there are a few options, each of which are used by at least 20% of big sites, you should limit yourself to choosing one of these reasonably well-known designs unless your alternative design has at least 25% higher measured usability than the best of the choices used by the big sites. Admittedly, the percentages in this list are my own best guesses. There is currently too little research on consistency theory to know exactly how many sites it takes for a certain design element to reach the level of a convention or a standard. Similarly, we don't know exactly how much it harms users to deviate from the two levels of expectations, though it is absolutely certain that it does hurt. Therefore, I recommend following the conventions even in those cases where a different design would be better if seen in isolation. The fact is, no website is seen in isolation: users come to your site expecting things to work the same way they are already used to. Of course, the truth is that web design is difficult, because the main issues concern information architecture and task flow, neither of which can be standardized. Both vary greatly from site to site because they relate to the specific nature of the information and the problems the site is trying to support. The mother of bad web design conventions is the decision to make hypertext links blue. Other colors would have been a better choice and would have increased the reading speed of the anchor text by a few percent. It is unfortunate to put the most important text on the page in a color that is known to reduce readability. If we were designing the Web from scratch, I would recommend using a different link color than blue. Since we are designing sites for the Web as it exists, I retain my recommendation to leave the standard link colors alone: Blue text means "click here" on the Web, so by keeping unvisited links blue, there is no doubt in users' minds as to what they can do. The time they save by knowing what to do on a page is probably much bigger than the time they lose by having the few words in the hypertext anchors be a few milliseconds slower to read. Even more important, knowing the difference between unvisited (blue) and previously visited (purple) links helps users understand the structure of the website and their own navigation history. On sites that change the colors, we often observe users revisiting the same pages again and again because they do not realize that they have already seen those pages. The added confusion, substantial navigation delays, and reduced probability of ever finding the right page are all very severe usability penalties from changing the default link colors. In the last two years, many sites have started placing a horizontal set of tabs across the top of the screen to indicate the main areas of their information architecture. In principle, this is a bad design and an abuse of the tab metaphor. Tabs are supposed to be used for rapid switching between alternative views of the same information object. For example, a site may have a standardized information architecture for product descriptions, with an overview page, a detailed specification, enlarged photos, and several other views. It would be very appropriate to use tabs to switch between the alternatives while retaining the main context and illusion of being at a single location on the site. Once users are deep inside a certain area of the site, tabs lose their meaning if they take users to another area of the site but do not preserve context in any meaningful ways. Such jumps are simply standardized navigation and should use a regular list of alternative links. I maintain that tabs would be better used for switching between alternative (but related) views than for navigating to unrelated locations. But unfortunately, users will soon lose any understanding they may have had of tabs as a special design element if more and more sites keep abusing tabs. I still think that less than 50% of sites use tabs in the (erroneous) meaning of navigating to the main sections of the site. Thus, I still think that the correct use of tabs is preferred and I recommend using different techniques to visualize the main areas of the site. But this may be a losing battle and I may have to revise this recommendation in a year or so if more and more sites adopt a misguided use of tabs. The "Yellow Fever" design style was introduced by CNET, and has since spread to so many sites that it has become a fairly strong convention: have a colored stripe down the left side of the page to contain the main navigation links. I have never been a great fan of this design approach because the colored navigation rail takes up about 20% of the pixels on the screen, even after the user has scrolled to the bottom of the page. Navigation is a secondary concern for users who are on the Web for the content. Interestingly, CNET itself abandoned the Yellow Fever in 1999 and now uses a design where the navigation links are concentrated on the top of the page, leaving the rest of the screen available for content. But there are still so many sites that use a colored navigation rail that I view it as an interaction convention: users know what to do with a colored stripe down the side of the page. It may waste pixels, but it probably helps users. Two things that are absolutely clear is that the navigation rail has to have some kind of colored background to set it aside from the content and that it has to be on the left side of the page. There are a few usability reasons why it would have been better to have the navigation rail on the right side of the page: Fitts' Law dictates that shorter mouse movements are better: it is always faster to click a target if it is closer to your starting position. Thus, placing the navigation rail next to the scroll bar will usually save users time over placing these two frequently-accessed areas on opposite sides of the window. Users always look at the content first when they encounter a new web page, so it would be better if the content started at the left border of the window (for users in cultures that read left-to-right). After the users are done with the content, their gaze could naturally shift to the right to decide where to go next. In contrast, placing the navigation rail to the left requires users to skip over it before they can start scanning the content area. If we were starting from scratch, we might improve the usability of a site by 1% or so by having a navigation rail on the right rather than on the left. But deviating from the standard would almost certainly impose a much bigger cost in terms of confusion and reduced ability to navigate smoothly. Many websites are starting to supply a breadcrumb trail across the top of the page to situate the current page relative to its parent nodes and to allow users to jump up several levels in a single click. Breadcrumb trails only work for sites with a hierarchical information architecture, but they do facilitate navigation in such sites. They would help even more if they were available on more sites so that users could get used to relying on them. There is no standard for how to indicate the progression between the levels of the hierarchy in a breadcrumb trail. My own site has used an arrow for the last four years. Before then I used a colon, as currently used by CNET. Yahoo and ZDNet both use a > sign, and yet other sites use a slash. There is no standard and there is no real reason to believe that any of these symbols is much better than the others. If a single symbol ever gained enough prominence to be used on more than 60% of the sites, then I would surely recommend using that. Right now, I would say that : > / and arrows are all equally good. But don't start using yet another symbol. For example, the vertical bar | is reserved for alternative choices and should not be used to indicate a progression. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From kv9x at scn.org Fri Nov 26 09:12:12 1999 From: kv9x at scn.org (Brian High) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:12:12 -0800 Subject: [e-smith] deployed in Dili, East Timor [& elsewhere] Message-ID: <000e01bf3831$9c094770$0200005a@happygardening.com> scn at scn, [news articles follow] e-smith is a specially pre-configured linux server for internet/file/print sharing. It is built from Red-hat linux. The configuration handles security concerns with firewall-like features like IP-masquerading as well as limiting access to non-essential services like telnet. It has a web-based administration interface, as well as a menu-based set-up. The administrator does not need to know Unix. I have set it up at home and it really installs easily. It is running a mail server, file sharing, and internet sharing for small home network of Windows(95/NT) and (SuSE) Linux machines. It dials the internet on demand and periodically dials on its own to check for new mail. Would be a good server choice for non-profit orgs wanting the power and economy of linux, but without much of the difficulty. --Brian ==== GNU/Linux [e-smith] deployed in Dili, East Timor Nov 25, 1999, 06:51 UTC A volunteer team from Community Aid Abroad recently set up a GNU/Linux server in Dili, East Timor, using UUCP and e-smith to provide file- and print-sharing and email connectivity over satellite phone. This write up [see below]describes the set up and the motivations for using free software. Community Aid Abroad: http://www.caa.org.au/ This article: http://linuxtoday.com/stories/12890.html === === Write-up: http://www.caa.org.au/groups/IT/dili/index.html "Charlie and I had already discussed building a specialised Linux distribution especially for small offices to use as a network server and Internet gateway. We realised that there were a small number of configuration items which had to vary from site to site, but the rest of the setup was fairly standard, and that a templated configuration system would greatly simplify the installation process. We also felt that a web based interface was needed for routine activities such as user account management which would be carried out by on-site, unskilled personnel. As is quite typical in the Open Source world, we were not the only ones faced with this problem - we discovered a server Linux distribution known as the e-smith server (http://www.e-smith.net/), produced in Canada and released under the GNU GPL, which basically met the model we had been discussing. At the time we first saw it, it didn't have all the features that we considered necessary, but the e-smith development team was very receptive to outside ideas and contributions, and the most recent release is quite close to our vision, and quite easily extended." ==== ==== America's first and largest hospice organization moves to e-smith's Linux servers Nov 24, 1999, 15:51 UTC "The Connecticut Hospice, Inc. provides services to patients with advanced, irreversible illness and their families and employs 365 staff and 575 volunteers. They are using e-smith's Linux-based internet servers for their corporate headquarters in Branford, Connecticut and their five remote office locations throughout the state of Connecticut." "When the Connecticut Hospice needed to update internetworking services for their employees, they evaluated their options. Although their IT team had experience primarily in Novell and Microsoft solutions, they were drawn to the price performance of Linux and curious about reports that it offered superior reliability. They were, however, concerned about implementing a technology for which they had limited internal experience." http://linuxtoday.com/stories/12854.html http://linuxpr.com/releases/728.html http://www.e-smith.net/ http://www.e-smith.net/customers/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * *