From bd166 at scn.org Sun Feb 6 10:44:40 2000 From: bd166 at scn.org (bd166 at scn.org) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 10:44:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: OPS: Forwarded mail.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: IMHO, I would guess (because I dont have the time or expertise for a lengthy analysis) the gut feeling among frequent and relatively patient SCN users (if they mean anything) is, and Im pretty good at guessing gut feelings, that there are some SCN reliability questions on the hardware/software end... and they (the SCN users) dont really care how its fixed, they would just like it fixed. So, after the big debate, it would be great to get it fixed, however that needs to be done... and it doesnt seem like there can be that many permutations (just another gut feeling). I think were all together in this, so onward...? Alan On Sun, 6 Feb 2000, Rod Clark wrote: > Subject: Re: OPS: Forwarded mail.... > > > Damn the facts, and full speed with a backup mail server, eh? > > JJ, > > SCN needs a backup Web server, to avoid Web outages like the > many lengthy ones that we have experienced when SCN4 is down > while SCN3 (with its Web server running bb) is up just fine but > there is no switchover machanism. > > SCN also needs a backup mail server, which will help a great > deal but will not solve all problems. > > > It is quite premature to attempt to "fix" something when we have no > > idea of what the supposed problem is. Or to even assume there is > > any real or substantial problem without some basic information. > . My opinion is that SCN's > system ("your" system, if you like) has needless unreliability in it. > Say what you like about my opinion on this but I came by it honestly, > and I find your guidance about the virtues of a complete lack of > backup units when attempting to build a reliable system to be > excessively unhelpful. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Tue Feb 8 14:26:29 2000 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:26:29 -0800 Subject: Security Message-ID: <200002082227.OAA18666@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes ============================== (Brian Livingston, InfoWorld)---A new program has brought together the strongest features of the best software firewalls, Trojan horse defenses, and Internet security locks. And best of all, this wunderkind of software can be downloaded for free use by individuals and nonprofit groups. Download site: www.zonelabs.com More info and bug reports: http://grc.com/zonealarm.htm ZoneAlarm has come a long way since the olden days when it only protected your PC against Trojan horses. Trojans sneak into your system via Web sites or e-mail and send data back to a hacker's server. Version 2.0 still protects against that, but now it is also, arguably, the strongest software-only firewall currently available. This combination of firewall protection and the detection of unauthorized, outbound Internet traffic is a giant step forward that has impressed those who have tried ZoneAlarm 2.0. ZoneLabs -- the San Francisco company that produces ZoneAlarm -- looks like it has a winner. Steve Gibson, a beta tester of ZoneAlarm 2.0 and the prime developer at Gibson Research, says ZoneAlarm "blows away BlackICE," a $39.95 software firewall I described in my Nov. 1, 1999, column. Trojan horses, a special breed of viruses, are becoming an enormous concern. A PC can catch a Trojan merely by browsing a Web site with a malicious ActiveX control or viewing a rich-text email (no attachment required). Trojans pass right through hardware firewalls. Because the PC user initiated the viewing of the infected Web site or e-mail, a hardware firewall sees no overt attack to defend against. To download ZoneAlarm 2.0, go to www.zonelabs.com. And, like any "point-oh" release, there's still a bit of "oh" left in it. You should visit Steve Gibson's update page on ZoneAlarm at grc.com/zonealarm.htm. Gibson describes several quirks he doesn't like in Version 2.0, and announces when each one is fixed. Most of the quirks are minor and won't keep you from using the product. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Tue Feb 8 15:41:32 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:41:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? Message-ID: There is a newer version of Lynx (2.8.2) available, why have we not upgraded? Even if that is not to happen soon, would it be possible to add the SSL patch for Lynx 2.7.2 available below? Link: SSLeay.announce URL: http://cryptography.org/crypto/oWphTqwr/SSL/SSLeay.announce Link: Index of /crypto/oWphTqwr/SSL URL: http://cryptography.org/crypto/oWphTqwr/SSL/ -Andrew ,_____,_____, 6 __ _ User: bb156 T\ :. .^\,_/__|_ /_| _/_ _ )__/'_ _ ' _ Domain: scn.org I ^T=====;=====T /| ( |/)(// (-((/ / //(/(///)_) Seattle, WA I I _|_| _/_/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Wed Feb 9 23:51:22 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:51:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? (fwd) Message-ID: Mel, Maybe you mistook the core meaning of my message. I am (idly) wondering about a Lynx 2.8.2 upgrade. I am _asking_ for immediate action on the SSL patch to permit users a range of services not currently available to them with the limitations of our current browser. SCN's Hardware-Software Committee does not have the greatest track record for timely system upgrades. A short list - Users enjoy: Pine 3.96 released 2/28/97 the latest is 4.21 released 11/17/97 with 8 interim releases. Lynx 2.7.2 1/06/98 current is 2.8.2 6/01/099 Freeport newsreader pre-1990 (no longer supported) current version of tin nr is 1.4.2 2/05/00 Users do _not_ enjoy: TCP/IP Slip/PPP Visible either dimly in the mealy-mouthed, might be happening morning mist; or the foggy, fuhgeddaboudit Y3K future. All I'm asking for is a *patch* to the existing browser so I can access services elsewhere. -Andrew P.S. Freeport death knell 8/18/94 http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/ip/freenet/conferences/com-net94/reports/future_dir.txt 2� 2� Hi Guys - 2� 2� I know you have lots of sys upgrades in the works - is this one of them? 2� Should it be, or will other upgrades negate its need? 2� 2� - Mel 2� 2� 2� 2� 2� There is a newer version of Lynx (2.8.2) available, why have we not 2� 2� upgraded? Even if that is not to happen soon, would it be possible to add 2� 2� the SSL patch for Lynx 2.7.2 available below? 2� 2� 2� 2� Link: SSLeay.announce 2� 2� URL: http://cryptography.org/crypto/oWphTqwr/SSL/SSLeay.announce 2� 2� 2� 2� Link: Index of /crypto/oWphTqwr/SSL 2� 2� URL: http://cryptography.org/crypto/oWphTqwr/SSL/ 2� 2� 2� 2� -Andrew 2� 2� * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Thu Feb 10 00:40:56 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:40:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? (fwd) Message-ID: 2� 2� Pine 3.96 released 2/28/97 the latest is 4.21 released 11/17/97 with 8 2� interim releases. 2� Correction - Pine 4.21 released Nov 17, 1999 -Andrew * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Thu Feb 10 15:51:59 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:51:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Andrew Higgins wrote: 2� 2� Maybe you mistook the core meaning of my message. I am (idly) wondering 2� 2� about a Lynx 2.8.2 upgrade. I am _asking_ for immediate action on the SSL 2� 2� patch to permit users a range of services not currently available to 2� 2� them with the limitations of our current browser. On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Chanh Ong wrote: 2� I upgrade lynx to 2.8 backup 10/1998 and ask for people to test and 2� feedback. I hear from no one. If you like to test it out, try to 2� run lynx28. I also upgrade pine to 4.2 in 11/1999 and receive no 2� feedback. If you like to test it out, try to run pine42. ������������������������������������������������������������������������������ 2� 2� about a Lynx 2.8.2 upgrade. I am _asking_ for immediate action on the SSL 2� 2� patch to permit users a range of services not currently available to Chanh, Again, this begs the question. I am aware of a number of programs available only to shell users in "beta" testing. As I recall Pine almost had to go into Omega testing before the average user was allowed to touch it. Please don't tell me what is available for shell users. Apply the PATCH for Lynx 2.7.2 SSL for Jane and John Doh! who are not getting through to sites that are within their reach, even with the _limited_ set of tools available to them on SCN. I have sent my correspondence on this issue out on three lists; hardware, scna-board and scn. The replies have been directed to two lists excluding scn, the only general and open one. What anti-democratic impulse is at work here, I wonder? Apply the patch, please. -Andrew * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Thu Feb 10 16:07:03 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:07:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Chanh Ong wrote: 2� I upgrade lynx to 2.8 backup 10/1998 and ask for people to test and 2� feedback. I hear from no one. If you like to test it out, try to 2� run lynx28. I did try it. It does not support https URLs. No good for now. Why not *patch* what we _do_ have, e.g Lynx 2.7.2 ? ~~~~~ -Andrew * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Thu Feb 10 17:19:42 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:19:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: OPS: BD: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? Message-ID: Rod, This is off-topic. Please note the subject line. If you want to open discussions with Chanh and who all else on upgrades to Pine et alia please feel free, but I do not want to be part of it or party to it or on your Cc: list for it. That's exactly what I'm talking about here. Lack of focus, obfuscation, tantalizing tangents; delay, delay, delay... No one has addressed my question/request. I raised the fact of SCN's use of older versions of both mail programs and news readers simply to illustrate my disbelief that an newer version of the Lynx browser will soon appear. Hence my request for a P-A-T-C-H to the existing version, got it? ||||||||| -Andrew 2� 2� Chanh, 2� 2� Pine 4.2 has worked well as far as I've seen, and it has some 2� nice improved features. But yesterday, when the load on the 2� server was higher than average, the old Pine started up and ran 2� quickly, but Pine 4.2 took a very long time to start. 2� ,_____,_____, 6 __ _ User: bb156 T\ :. .^\,_/__|_ /_| _/_ _ )__/'_ _ ' _ Domain: scn.org I ^T=====;=====T /| ( |/)(// (-((/ / //(/(///)_) Seattle, WA I I _|_| _/_/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From chanh at scn.org Fri Feb 11 10:17:15 2000 From: chanh at scn.org (Chanh Ong) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:17:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: OPS: RE: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? In-Reply-To: <01BF73EF.28456E00.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: What would you suggest? If you make something available to people to test, nobody show any interest. What more can you do? How are you go about "explicitly" seek for people? Thanks for your constructive feedback ------------------------------------------------------------------ ^ Chanh Ong (SCN) ^^^ Home of Mount Rainier Seattle, Washington ------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Joe Mabel wrote: > Chanh, you seem to be saying, in effect "I threw this in a place where a > limited number of people could see it a year and a half ago (10/98), with > no one in particular assigned to test and got no results back. Therefore, > I am assuming that this tool is not good enough to hand to the general > public." > > My guess is that few (if any) of the people who have shell access lack a > graphical browser in some other environment, so they've got no motivation > to try this out. If you have doubts about exposing this to the general > public, and if "throw it over the wall" doesn't get you any feedback, why > don't you explicitly seek 3-5 people on the hardware or webmasters > committee (or whoever) each willing to give this a few hours testing? Or > make it available as an alternative on the FreePort menus? > > On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Andrew Higgins wrote: > > 2c 2c Maybe you mistook the core meaning of my message. I am (idly) > wondering > 2c 2c about a Lynx 2.8.2 upgrade. I am _asking_ for immediate action on the > SSL > 2c 2c patch to permit users a range of services not currently available to > 2c 2c them with the limitations of our current browser. > > > On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Chanh Ong wrote: > > 2c I upgrade lynx to 2.8 backup 10/1998 and ask for people to test and > 2c feedback. I hear from no one. If you like to test it out, try to > 2c run lynx28. I also upgrade pine to 4.2 in 11/1999 and receive no > 2c feedback. If you like to test it out, try to run pine42. > > > > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > <><><> > > 2c 2c about a Lynx 2.8.2 upgrade. I am _asking_ for immediate action on the > SSL > 2c 2c patch to permit users a range of services not currently available to > > > Chanh, > > Again, this begs the question. I am aware of a number of programs > available only to shell users in "beta" testing. As I recall Pine almost > had to go into Omega testing before the average user was allowed to touch > it. Please don't tell me what is available for shell users. Apply the > PATCH for Lynx 2.7.2 SSL for Jane and John Doh! who are not getting > through to sites that are within their reach, even with the _limited_ set > of tools available to them on SCN. > > I have sent my correspondence on this issue out on three lists; hardware, > scna-board and scn. The replies have been directed to two lists excluding > scn, the only general and open one. What anti-democratic impulse is at > work here, I wonder? > > Apply the patch, please. > > -Andrew > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Higgins [SMTP:bb156 at scn.org] > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 3:52 PM > To: Hardware > Cc: SCNA Board; Chanh Ong; scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? > > << File: ATT00012.txt; charset = X-UNKNOWN >> > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo-1-94-4 at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe hardware > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Fri Feb 11 13:13:02 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:13:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? Message-ID: 2� 2� Andrew, 2� 2� Yes, I have it. And I personally can't do a single thing 2� about it, any more than you can, because I don't have the 2� necessary expertise at solving the Unix problems with it that 2� will come up on SCN's FreePort-ish system. 2� 2� There are exceptionally few people who do. And their time is 2� already booked solid for the foreseeable future. What you are 2� asking is to move this higher in the priority list, and move 2� something else that is now a higher priority to a lower one. 2� 2� Right now, getting all of the IMAP related software installed 2� and working is a considerably higher priority than SSL for Lynx, 2� to take one example. I am not in favor of reversing that 2� particular priority. It's unlikely that SSL for Lynx will be a 2� reality any time soon, unless we can find substantially more 2� highly qualified Unix sysadmin volunteer time. 2� 2� Rod Clark 2� Rod, Thank you. Finally a reasoned response. I disagree with the term "priorities" however. It has never seemed to me that there _is_ a system for establishing priorities. A codified set of needs, triage for what must get done in what order, and assignments to individuals to get them done. Many things appear to move forward on a `pet project' basis. Perhaps this is misinformed or ignorant, patently unfair, but this is how it appears from my perspective. Appatently from yours as well. Unless things have changed drastically in 4� months... (From another list, absolutely no state secrets revealed) On Tuesday Sep 21 1999 Rod Clark wrote - > As far as I know there's been no attempt to recruit anyone >new and bring them into Operations to do this. We already know >that the (4 or 5?) root people aren't going to, but does that >mean that one of SCN's most visible services is abandoned >because a tiny handful of sysadms don't have any personal >interest in supporting it? What's the next service that will go >this way - SMTP? What is SCN anyway, the preserve of a few >priviliged people who can kill off major services in an >offhanded manner if they personally are disinterested in >supporting them? Isn't SCN an organization with at least some >ongoing structure to support its services and its users? Take your answer for example. IMAP software is necessary for ditching Freeport mail, coordination of the Endymion WWWeb Mail software with Pine email, etc. That's a good thing. Is it a priority? Is it *the* priority over security, Slip/PPP, Linux, Chebucto et alia. Who is setting these in order, assigning the tasks and crossing them off the top of the list and bumping everything up one. I ask because I'm interested, and it's not at all clear from what I can glean at http://www.scn.org/ops/. One of the first numbered item on the list there states the need for - + developing a method for assigning tasks against a known pool of person/hours. leading me to believe that that's not how it is currently being done. Let me finish by recognizing the hard work and dedication of the many volunteers at SCN and all that they do. I am in awe of the wisdom and experience brought to bear in these fields. If the sum total of my knowledge of these matters were binarily codified it would be all zeds. Nada, nichts, nil, bupkus. I appreciate all that is done. -Andrew * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From gtruzzi at scn.org Fri Feb 11 17:37:26 2000 From: gtruzzi at scn.org (Gianni Truzzi) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:37:26 -0800 Subject: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? References: Message-ID: <38A4B956.C17AA55@scn.org> Please remove the scna-board list from all future CC's in this conversation thread. This is not a board matter. -- Gianni Truzzi Andrew Higgins wrote: > On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Andrew Higgins wrote: > > 2¢ 2¢ Maybe you mistook the core meaning of my message. I am (idly) wondering > 2¢ 2¢ about a Lynx 2.8.2 upgrade. I am _asking_ for immediate action on the SSL > 2¢ 2¢ patch to permit users a range of services not currently available to > 2¢ 2¢ them with the limitations of our current browser. > > On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Chanh Ong wrote: > > 2¢ I upgrade lynx to 2.8 backup 10/1998 and ask for people to test and > 2¢ feedback. I hear from no one. If you like to test it out, try to > 2¢ run lynx28. I also upgrade pine to 4.2 in 11/1999 and receive no > 2¢ feedback. If you like to test it out, try to run pine42. > > «»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«» > > 2¢ 2¢ about a Lynx 2.8.2 upgrade. I am _asking_ for immediate action on the SSL > 2¢ 2¢ patch to permit users a range of services not currently available to > > Chanh, > > Again, this begs the question. I am aware of a number of programs > available only to shell users in "beta" testing. As I recall Pine almost > had to go into Omega testing before the average user was allowed to touch > it. Please don't tell me what is available for shell users. Apply the > PATCH for Lynx 2.7.2 SSL for Jane and John Doh! who are not getting > through to sites that are within their reach, even with the _limited_ set > of tools available to them on SCN. > > I have sent my correspondence on this issue out on three lists; hardware, > scna-board and scn. The replies have been directed to two lists excluding > scn, the only general and open one. What anti-democratic impulse is at > work here, I wonder? > > Apply the patch, please. > > -Andrew > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Fri Feb 11 19:08:54 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:08:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? Message-ID: 2� Please remove the scna-board list from all future CC's in this conversation 2� thread. 2� This is not a board matter. 2� 2� -- Gianni Truzzi ������������������������������������������������������������������������������ BYLAWS OF SEATTLE COMMUNITY NETWORK ASSOCIATION ARTICLE 1. PURPOSE 1.1. The first objective of the Corporation shall be to develop, maintain and enhance a free community computer network. This purpose ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ includes providing open access to on-line information and communication ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ services, encouraging the development of a wide range of community ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ||||||||||| ~~ ~ |||| ||||| ~~ ~~~~~~~~~ electronic information resources, and providing support for community ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ development and empowerment for Seattle and the surrounding area. Gianni, I beg to differ. The bylaw Article 1. Purpose 1. seems to disagree. This is _most_ appropriately a board issue as it seems to have fermenting on the vine in hw/software for some time. Not sour grapes, simply an observation. The very I raise (SSL) is the one of the most frequently asked questions from our users according to our very capable and au courant webmaster Rod. He is the one person connected with SCN that I believe to be most in touch with the average users' issues and concerns. The scna-board at scn.org address exists for communication *with* the board. Otherwise, why would it appear on the webpage as such? If you wish to establish a closed list or group alias for more private issues, please feel free. -Andrew * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From gtruzzi at scn.org Sat Feb 12 09:13:41 2000 From: gtruzzi at scn.org (Gianni Truzzi) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:13:41 -0800 Subject: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? References: Message-ID: <38A594C4.A6FE4579@scn.org> Andrew Higgins wrote: > 2¢ Please remove the scna-board list from all future CC's in this conversation > 2¢ thread. > 2¢ This is not a board matter. > 2¢ > 2¢ -- Gianni Truzzi > > «»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«» > > BYLAWS OF SEATTLE COMMUNITY NETWORK ASSOCIATION > > ARTICLE 1. PURPOSE > > 1.1. The first objective of the Corporation shall be to develop, > > maintain and enhance a free community computer network. This purpose > ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ > includes providing open access to on-line information and communication > ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > services, encouraging the development of a wide range of community > ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ||||||||||| ~~ ~ |||| ||||| ~~ ~~~~~~~~~ > electronic information resources, and providing support for community > ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ > development and empowerment for Seattle and the surrounding area. > > Gianni, > > I beg to differ. The bylaw Article 1. Purpose 1. seems to disagree. This > is _most_ appropriately a board issue as it seems to have fermenting on > the vine in hw/software for some time. Not sour grapes, simply an > observation. The very I raise (SSL) is the one of the most frequently > asked questions from our users according to our very capable and au > courant webmaster Rod. He is the one person connected with SCN that I > believe to be most in touch with the average users' issues and concerns. > > The scna-board at scn.org address exists for communication *with* the board. > Otherwise, why would it appear on the webpage as such? If you wish to > establish a closed list or group alias for more private issues, please > feel free. > > -Andrew * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From gtruzzi at scn.org Sat Feb 12 09:32:30 2000 From: gtruzzi at scn.org (Gianni Truzzi) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:32:30 -0800 Subject: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? References: Message-ID: <38A5992E.2F20C5C0@scn.org> Andrew: Thank you for notifying the board that the problem exists. However, it is not necessary for us to follow the entire conversation. This is a matter for the Operations group within SCNA. That is the appropriate venue. The Board is not the body that administers the SCN system and the Operations group, as part of SCNA, is equally governed by the ByLaws. It is simply an issue of appropriate channels. I ask only that you follow them, and abide by my request. I will also point out the SCN code of conduct you agreed to requires all users to use the lists appropriately and in a manner consistent with their intended purpose. The board welcomes your comments. That's why the list is open for receiving. But an ongoing discussion about system administration should take place in the correct venue. The hardware list exists for that purpose, as does the SCN list. -- Gianni P.S. As a personal aside, I find the tone of your posts, as represented by the subject line of this thread, to be unnecessarily belligerent. Your points are valid, but are undermined by your hostile posture. Can you think of nicer, more constructive ways of saying the same things? Andrew Higgins wrote: > 2¢ Please remove the scna-board list from all future CC's in this conversation > 2¢ thread. > 2¢ This is not a board matter. > 2¢ > 2¢ -- Gianni Truzzi > > «»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«» > > BYLAWS OF SEATTLE COMMUNITY NETWORK ASSOCIATION > > ARTICLE 1. PURPOSE > > 1.1. The first objective of the Corporation shall be to develop, > > maintain and enhance a free community computer network. This purpose > ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ > includes providing open access to on-line information and communication > ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > services, encouraging the development of a wide range of community > ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ||||||||||| ~~ ~ |||| ||||| ~~ ~~~~~~~~~ > electronic information resources, and providing support for community > ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ > development and empowerment for Seattle and the surrounding area. > > Gianni, > > I beg to differ. The bylaw Article 1. Purpose 1. seems to disagree. This > is _most_ appropriately a board issue as it seems to have fermenting on > the vine in hw/software for some time. Not sour grapes, simply an > observation. The very I raise (SSL) is the one of the most frequently > asked questions from our users according to our very capable and au > courant webmaster Rod. He is the one person connected with SCN that I > believe to be most in touch with the average users' issues and concerns. > > The scna-board at scn.org address exists for communication *with* the board. > Otherwise, why would it appear on the webpage as such? If you wish to > establish a closed list or group alias for more private issues, please > feel free. > > -Andrew * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Sat Feb 12 10:20:00 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:20:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? Message-ID: Duly noted and done. This thread will continue on the scn list alone. A sincere apology to all who had their delicate pintails ruffled by my "belligerent" tone. -Andrew P.S. As a personal aside (going out on three lists), Perhaps you can tell me how the subject line "Why have we not upgraded Lynx" equates belligerence. The word is defined as `waging war'. A good word, a strong word, one simply inapplicable here. 2� Andrew: 2� 2� Thank you for notifying the board that the problem exists. However, it is not 2� necessary for us to follow the entire conversation... 2� 2� It is simply an issue of appropriate channels. I ask only that you follow 2� them, and abide by my request... 2� 2� I will also point out the SCN code of conduct you agreed to requires all 2� users to use the lists appropriately and in a manner consistent with their 2� intended purpose... 2� 2� -- Gianni Truzzi * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From rockybay at scn.org Sun Feb 13 09:04:53 2000 From: rockybay at scn.org (Malcolm Taran) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:04:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: OPS: Re: implementing upgraded Lynx (cf. Lynx28, PINE42) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I use Lynx a lot, and PINE more. I'm also on the EMT team, since I joined SCN a coupla years ago. A colleague at the UW mentioned the (minor) upgrade to PINE last Nov. I've never heard of either of these upgrade implementations 'till Andrew forwarded a copy of his reply dated Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:51 to scn at scn.org The inability of SCN Lynx to further identify a [LINK], not to mention frames inability, makes an ever-increasing portion of sites increasingly difficult. ____________________ On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Andrew Higgins wrote: 2" 2" ... I am (idly) wondering 2" 2" about a Lynx 2.8.2 upgrade. I am _asking_ for immediate action on the SSL 2" 2" patch to permit users a range of services not currently available to 2" 2" them with the limitations of our current browser. On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Chanh Ong wrote: 2" I upgrade lynx to 2.8 backup 10/1998 and ask for people to test and 2" feedback. I hear from no one. If you like to test it out, try to 2" run lynx28. I also upgrade pine to 4.2 in 11/1999 and receive no 2" feedback. If you like to test it out, try to run pine42. >From the main menu and from the 'go lynx' menu, I tried lynx28, lynx2.8, lynx 28, lynx 2.8 LYNX28, LYNX2.8, LYNX 28, LYNX 2.8 The consistent result was "Please type a command or the NUMBER of your choice." As well as permutations prefixed with "run" and "go"; the consistent result was the above or respectively "Type 'go' with no parameters to get a list of places to GO" Lynx 2.8 did not run. >From the main menu and from the 'go pine' menu, I tried pine42, pine4.2, pine 42, pine 4.2, PINE42, PINE4.2, PINE 42, PINE 4.2 The consistent result was "Please type a command or the NUMBER of your choice." As well as permutations prefixed with "run" and "go"; the consistent result was the above or "Type 'go' with no parameters to get a list of places to GO" Pine 4.2 did not run. ---> ? ____________________ On 11 Feb 2000 13:13 Andrew Higgins quoted Rod Clark 2" ... And I personally can't do a single thing 2" about it, any more than you can, because I don't have the 2" necessary expertise at solving the Unix problems with it that 2" will come up on SCN's FreePort-ish system. 2" 2" There are exceptionally few people who do. And their time is 2" already booked solid for the foreseeable future. ... So let's upgrade to the mid-nineties. This, in itself, is a substantial valid reason to euthanize FreePort. Triage. As I understand, SCN will remain fully available to legacy PC hardware and software, fulfilling a mission of SCNA. Cars no longer have holes in the grilles for inserting the hand-start crank, there's no pocket by the driver for the buggy whip. Andrew wrote > Let me finish by recognizing the hard work and dedication of the many volunteers at SCN and all that they do. I am in awe of the wisdom and experience brought to bear in these fields. If the sum total of my knowledge of these matters were binarily codified it would be all zeds. Nada, nichts, nil, bupkus. I appreciate all that is done. > Yes Malcolm Taran * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Sun Feb 13 09:37:43 2000 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:37:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: OPS: Re: implementing upgraded Lynx (cf. Lynx28, PINE42) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From the main menu and from the 'go pine' menu, I tried > pine42, pine4.2, pine 42, pine 4.2, > PINE42, PINE4.2, PINE 42, PINE 4.2 > The consistent result was > "Please type a command or the NUMBER of your choice." > As well as permutations prefixed with "run" and "go"; > the consistent result was the above or > "Type 'go' with no parameters to get a list of places to GO" > Pine 4.2 did not run. Malcolm, Unlike Andrew's, your account isn't set up to run new programs from the shell for usability testing. We can't yet put pine42 on FreePort's general user test menu because it isn't FreePort-mail compatible. It's easy to install standard pine42, and that was done last year, but standard pine42 doesn't work with mail in FreePort's peculiar two-mailbox system. Someone at SCN will have to laboriously make that possible, before it can be offered on FreePort, and I'm not the someone. Anyway, if you did have shell access from FreePort, you'd type "shell" at the "Your Choice -->" prompt. But you won't be able to use the new Pine from FreePort for some indefinite length of time, until the FreePort programmers (who can be counted on the fingers of one thumb, I believe, i.e. Randy) have time to work on them. This isn't a skill that you can advertise for, because it doesn't exist in the outside world. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Sun Feb 13 10:57:28 2000 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:57:28 -0800 Subject: Privacy Message-ID: <200002131857.KAA10363@scn.org> Couple of useful sites - http://www.epic.org/privacy/tools.html http://www.junkbusters.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Sun Feb 13 20:47:32 2000 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:47:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: OPS: not functioning (was: Why have we not upgraded Lynx?) In-Reply-To: <38A4B956.C17AA55@scn.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Gianni Truzzi wrote: > This is not a board matter. Gianni, I think you have missed something here. The issue is not Lynx as such, it is why "Operations" is, in the view of some, not functioning. It seems that "Operations" (what ever that is) can't answer the question. That IS a Board matter. === JJ ================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at saltmine.com Mon Feb 14 08:48:14 2000 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:48:14 -0800 Subject: Why FreePort? ( was RE: OPS: Re: implementing upgraded Lynx (cf. Lynx28, PINE42)) Message-ID: <01BF76C8.3B92DAC0.jmabel@saltmine.com> Which leads me back to a question I've asked before but can't remember getting a good answer to: Why are we still using FreePort? -----Original Message----- From: Rod Clark [SMTP:bb615 at scn.org] Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 9:38 AM To: scn at scn.org Cc: hardware at scn.org Subject: Re: OPS: Re: implementing upgraded Lynx (cf. Lynx28, PINE42) > From the main menu and from the 'go pine' menu, I tried > pine42, pine4.2, pine 42, pine 4.2, > PINE42, PINE4.2, PINE 42, PINE 4.2 > The consistent result was > "Please type a command or the NUMBER of your choice." > As well as permutations prefixed with "run" and "go"; > the consistent result was the above or > "Type 'go' with no parameters to get a list of places to GO" > Pine 4.2 did not run. Malcolm, Unlike Andrew's, your account isn't set up to run new programs from the shell for usability testing. We can't yet put pine42 on FreePort's general user test menu because it isn't FreePort-mail compatible. It's easy to install standard pine42, and that was done last year, but standard pine42 doesn't work with mail in FreePort's peculiar two-mailbox system. Someone at SCN will have to laboriously make that possible, before it can be offered on FreePort, and I'm not the someone. Anyway, if you did have shell access from FreePort, you'd type "shell" at the "Your Choice -->" prompt. But you won't be able to use the new Pine from FreePort for some indefinite length of time, until the FreePort programmers (who can be counted on the fingers of one thumb, I believe, i.e. Randy) have time to work on them. This isn't a skill that you can advertise for, because it doesn't exist in the outside world. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Mon Feb 14 09:31:17 2000 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:31:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why FreePort? ( was RE: OPS: Re: implementing upgraded Lynx (cf. Lynx28, PINE42)) In-Reply-To: <01BF76C8.3B92DAC0.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: > Which leads me back to a question I've asked before but can't > remember getting a good answer to: > > Why are we still using FreePort? Joe, It's because it's a way to manage a huge number of user accounts automatically, with little need for constant admin time to deal with them and with a good deal of built-in security. It also has a reasonably good, usable menu system for dialin non-PPP users, that insulates them from the Unix shell (both for the beginners' benefit and SCN's). The bad part is that FreePort is inflexible about some things, it's poorly and confusingly programmed, and its built-in mail programs are incompatible with other mail programs. A possible alternative is the Chebucto community networking software, which Operations has been looking into and Ken Applegate has installed and has been trying out on a separate machine. There's also a recent major revision of FreePort that we don't yet know enough about yet. In the near term, we want to keep the good parts (menu system, low sysadmin maintenance for user accounts, built-in security). None of these are trivial for SCN. Unlike the usual ISP, we have an extensive beginner-oriented menu system, where the average ISP takes a "Here's Unix - deal with it" approach if they offer access to shell tools at all. At the same time, we have to get rid of the FreePort mail programs and some other undesirable parts of FreePort, before we can offer mail services that all work properly together. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Mon Feb 14 09:52:55 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (Andrew Higgins) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:52:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why FreePort? (was RE: OPS: Re: implementing upgraded... Message-ID: On Monday Feb. 14 Joe Mabel wrote: 2� > Which leads me back to a question I've asked before but can't 2� > remember getting a good answer to: 2� > 2� > Why are we still using FreePort? 2� On Monday Feb. 14 Rod Clark wrote: 2� 2� A possible alternative is the Chebucto community networking 2� software, which Operations has been looking into and Ken 2� Applegate has installed and has been trying out on a separate 2� machine. There's also a recent major revision of FreePort that 2� we don't yet know enough about yet. 2� 2� In the near term... -SCN General Meeting - May 28,1997 -35 attendees - -Registration ad-hoc subcommittee met twice; came up with recommendation -of electronic database with partial electronic (online) registration a -reality. Need to contact other freenets about their processes. The -Chebucto package includes online registration, but the hardware -committee needs to test it further prior to offering it to SCN. You're making my point for me. Unconscionable delay. -Andrew * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at saltmine.com Mon Feb 14 10:40:14 2000 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:40:14 -0800 Subject: Why FreePort? ( was RE: OPS: Re: implementing upgraded Lynx (cf. Lynx28, PINE42)) Message-ID: <01BF76D7.E1469A10.jmabel@saltmine.com> Has anyone taken a serious look at how Speakeasy RAIN does things? They seem to have a very adequate menu system -- much simpler, I might add. No idea, though, how much admin time this portion of their system takes, nor how much custom work they did to create it. -----Original Message----- From: Rod Clark [SMTP:bb615 at scn.org] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 9:31 AM To: Joe Mabel Cc: scn at scn.org; hardware at scn.org Subject: Re: Why FreePort? ( was RE: OPS: Re: implementing upgraded Lynx (cf. Lynx28, PINE42)) > Which leads me back to a question I've asked before but can't > remember getting a good answer to: > > Why are we still using FreePort? Joe, It's because it's a way to manage a huge number of user accounts automatically, with little need for constant admin time to deal with them and with a good deal of built-in security. It also has a reasonably good, usable menu system for dialin non-PPP users, that insulates them from the Unix shell (both for the beginners' benefit and SCN's). The bad part is that FreePort is inflexible about some things, it's poorly and confusingly programmed, and its built-in mail programs are incompatible with other mail programs. A possible alternative is the Chebucto community networking software, which Operations has been looking into and Ken Applegate has installed and has been trying out on a separate machine. There's also a recent major revision of FreePort that we don't yet know enough about yet. In the near term, we want to keep the good parts (menu system, low sysadmin maintenance for user accounts, built-in security). None of these are trivial for SCN. Unlike the usual ISP, we have an extensive beginner-oriented menu system, where the average ISP takes a "Here's Unix - deal with it" approach if they offer access to shell tools at all. At the same time, we have to get rid of the FreePort mail programs and some other undesirable parts of FreePort, before we can offer mail services that all work properly together. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Mon Feb 14 10:40:56 2000 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:40:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why FreePort? (was RE: OPS: Re: implementing upgraded... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -SCN General Meeting - May 28,1997 > -35 attendees > - > -Registration ad-hoc subcommittee met twice; came up with recommendation > -of electronic database with partial electronic (online) registration a > -reality. Need to contact other freenets about their processes. The > -Chebucto package includes online registration, but the hardware > -committee needs to test it further prior to offering it to SCN. > > You're making my point for me. Unconscionable delay. Andrew, If it were possible to do it with the minimal Operations volunteer time that's available, we would have done it already. Moving to Chebucto is a major change, and involves a considerable part of what it would take to start up a new community network from scratch. Just keeping up with the maintenance and problems that we already have is more than enough workload for the existing tech volunteers. Unlike some other community networks, SCN doesn't have lots of big-time project managers and highly technical volunteers lavishing a lot of hours on it. It has one of the tiniest and most inadequate budgets of any community network in the country. It's shunned by the media, and exists at a low level that's outside of most people's field of attention. SCN has no staff in its nonexistent office, whose job it would be to keep things on track all day every day,. There is no office where the technical volunteers can physically meet and work on these things whenever they have time from day to day, as the typical community network has. Since SCN has chosen to stay away from corporate and government funding, and it's comparatively not too well known and not necessarily too well respected among many established and capable people who would help it if it were closer to their tastes or pocketbooks or resumes, all we have is a few individualistic and largely unsupported technical volunteers who devote what little time they can to it. This is a lack-of-skilled-hours problem, not a matter of whether we want to improve the system. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From rockybay at scn.org Mon Feb 14 22:53:23 2000 From: rockybay at scn.org (Malcolm Taran) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:53:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why FreePort? (was RE: OPS: Re: implementing upgraded... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You wrote > Since SCN has chosen to stay away from corporate and government funding, and it's comparatively not too well known and not necessarily too well respected among many established and capable people who would help it if it were closer to their tastes or pocketbooks or resumes, all we have is a few ... > --> What might, say, users do to urge that SCN maintain integrity and independence while doing needed promotion? --> Does this suggest the relationship with SPL is valuable and worth nurturing? Malcolm Taran * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Mon Feb 14 23:43:18 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (AH) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:43:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: OPS: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? Message-ID: 2� 2� If we were to upgrade 2.7.2 version with SSL patch do we need a 2� certificate?? If we need a certificate, where and how to get one? 2� Under development... Read all about it at - Link: Lynx-cert: User Certificate support for Lynx URL: http://web.mit.edu/teamhtml/Athena/FY97/lynx-cert/main/main.html -Andrew * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From cdromav at post.com Tue Feb 15 01:01:01 2000 From: cdromav at post.com (cdromav at post.com) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:01:01 +0100 Subject: aviation Message-ID: <200002150901.KAA24740@trock.fabula.it> For 6 years The International AirCD has been the #1 selling database of aircraft owners in the world. It stands out as being the most accurate, up to date and complete source of aircraft owner/operator information, aviation industry related companies, pilot records and aircraft performance data. [All four data files come on the 1 CD-ROM] The AirCD includes over 1.2 million records containing complete owner/operator data for every aircraft in 100+ countries worldwide. Includes make, model, sn, tail #, owner/operator name, complete mailing address, year built, data purchased, phone #'s, fax #'s, and more. The complete list of countries covered can be found at: http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/sunroof/663 Print mailing labels, export data into virtually any program, print detailed contact reports. Create mail, email and fax databases and more. This is a CD database that every aviation related company should have. Give us a call, fax or send us an email for further details. Visit us online at: http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/sunroof/663 or drop us an email at: cdromav at post.com Thank you. Infomart Corp. 2234 N. Federal Hwy., Suite 469 Boca Raton, FL 33431 561-243-1219 (tel) 561-243-9889 (fax) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Tue Feb 15 09:52:25 2000 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:52:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why FreePort? (was RE: OPS: Re: implementing upgraded... Message-ID: <200002151752.JAA13214@scn.org> Great questions! I'd suggest that the first thing we all need to have is a consciousness about where we stand. We all need to realize that there is a lot of pressure and competition from the outside world. We offered free e-mail years before hotmail and the others did! But we could do a better PR job. We have to let people know we're out there. Also I do think we need to let people know that we need resources -- both people and money -- to carry on our job. Also, we need to continually innovate -- come up with new ideas -- not just related to hardware, but working with communities. Community asset mapping or neighborhood home pages, etc. And YES! (IMO) the relationship with SPL is important as they are natural allies. (I'll be on a panel with the president of the American LIbrary Association in November and she is apparently a community network supporter and knows about our effort.) We also want to work with other projects, initiatives, etc. whenever possible. We need to be an important part of the "web" of democratic technology projects. We've got an important system that is bucking the trend and is being watched by people all over the world. We all need to think about how it can be successful (and the main way it to help others use it so that they can be successful). -- Doug > From scn-owner at scn.org Mon Feb 14 22:52 PST 2000 > Received: from scn.org (root at scn [209.63.95.146]) > by scn4.scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA28403; > Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:52:33 -0800 (PST) > Received: by scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id WAA17678 > for scn-outgoing; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:53:41 -0800 (PST) > Received: from localhost (rockybay at localhost) > by scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA17607; > Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:53:25 -0800 (PST) > Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:53:23 -0800 (PST) > From: Malcolm Taran > X-Sender: rockybay at scn > Reply-To: Malcolm Taran > To: Rod Clark > cc: Andrew Higgins , Hardware , scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: Why FreePort? (was RE: OPS: Re: implementing upgraded... > In-Reply-To: > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Sender: owner-scn at scn.org > Precedence: bulk > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Length: 870 > Status: R > > > You wrote > > > Since SCN has chosen to stay away from corporate and > government funding, and it's comparatively not too well known > and not necessarily too well respected among many established > and capable people who would help it if it were closer to their > tastes or pocketbooks or resumes, all we have is a few ... > > > > --> What might, say, users do to urge that SCN maintain > integrity and independence while doing needed promotion? > > --> Does this suggest the relationship with SPL is valuable > and worth nurturing? > > Malcolm Taran > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From scoth at scn.org Tue Feb 15 10:19:54 2000 From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on SCN.org) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:19:54 -0800 Subject: Spam from/about connected user (Subject: aviation) Message-ID: <000801bf77e1$49564240$078cc5ce@thurman.com> Howdy, Fabula.it: please close the relay hole in your mail server on trock.fabula.it. This spammer stole your network and system resources. Others will follow to do the same since word of open relays travels fast. Save your systems from this abuse and the world from this crass form of advertising. Close the hole. BellSouth.net: I have verified that 209.214.90.174 maps to host-209-214-90-174.bct.bellsouth.net. Please follow up per your AUG/TOS. Post.com/iName: I do not know if cdromav is a legitimate address on your system. If so, then please pursue per your AUG/TOS. FortuneCity.com: Since the link comes up 404 I assume you have already shut down the site. Thank you! Note to all: The list address scn at scn.org is a reserved email list for the use of members of the Seattle Community Network. It is not a published address outside of that scope. Advertising to the list prohibited. Any claims that the address was obtained as an opt-in option are false. ---begin--- Received: from scn.org (root at scn [209.63.95.146]) by scn4.scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA13991; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA07921 for scn-outgoing; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:15:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from trock.fabula.it (IDENT:root at trock.fabula.it [194.185.69.72]) by scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA07916 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:15:41 -0800 (PST) From: cdromav at post.com Received: from 209.214.90.174 (host-209-214-90-174.bct.bellsouth.net [209.214.90.174]) by trock.fabula.it (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24740 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:01:01 +0100 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:01:01 +0100 Message-Id: <200002150901.KAA24740 at trock.fabula.it> To: scn at scn.org Subject: aviation Sender: owner-scn at scn.org Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 03d7ec9dc50747b291bae57a560098cb For 6 years The International AirCD has been the #1 selling database of aircraft owners in the world. It stands out as being the most accurate, up to date and complete source of aircraft owner/operator information, aviation industry related companies, pilot records and aircraft performance data. [All four data files come on the 1 CD-ROM] The AirCD includes over 1.2 million records containing complete owner/operator data for every aircraft in 100+ countries worldwide. Includes make, model, sn, tail #, owner/operator name, complete mailing address, year built, data purchased, phone #'s, fax #'s, and more. The complete list of countries covered can be found at: http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/sunroof/663 Print mailing labels, export data into virtually any program, print detailed contact reports. Create mail, email and fax databases and more. This is a CD database that every aviation related company should have. Give us a call, fax or send us an email for further details. Visit us online at: http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/sunroof/663 or drop us an email at: cdromav at post.com Thank you. Infomart Corp. 2234 N. Federal Hwy., Suite 469 Boca Raton, FL 33431 561-243-1219 (tel) 561-243-9889 (fax) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ---end--- -- Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) | Systems Administrator, Thurman Ind, Bothell, WA North Bend, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Tue Feb 15 10:30:05 2000 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:30:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Spam from/about connected user (Subject: aviation) Message-ID: <200002151830.KAA24934@scn.org> I'm way out of my league on this although I hate spam as much as the next guy. I know that the state of Washington has a law against spamming and there is actually a fine. Can we help in some way to make sure that these spammers are actually *fined*? It would seem like a great public service. -- Doug > From: "Scot Harkins on SCN.org" > To: , , , > , > Cc: > Subject: Spam from/about connected user (Subject: aviation) > Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:19:54 -0800 > > Howdy, > > > Fabula.it: please close the relay hole in your mail server on > trock.fabula.it. This spammer stole your network and system resources. > Others will follow to do the same since word of open relays travels fast. > Save your systems from this abuse and the world from this crass form of > advertising. Close the hole. > > BellSouth.net: I have verified that 209.214.90.174 maps to > host-209-214-90-174.bct.bellsouth.net. Please follow up per your AUG/TOS. > > Post.com/iName: I do not know if cdromav is a legitimate address on your > system. If so, then please pursue per your AUG/TOS. > > FortuneCity.com: Since the link comes up 404 I assume you have already shut > down the site. Thank you! > > Note to all: The list address scn at scn.org is a reserved email list for the > use of members of the Seattle Community Network. It is not a published > address outside of that scope. Advertising to the list prohibited. Any > claims that the address was obtained as an opt-in option are false. > > > ---begin--- > Received: from scn.org (root at scn [209.63.95.146]) > by scn4.scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA13991; > Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:14:32 -0800 (PST) > Received: by scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA07921 > for scn-outgoing; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:15:44 -0800 (PST) > Received: from trock.fabula.it (IDENT:root at trock.fabula.it [194.185.69.72]) > by scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA07916 > for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:15:41 -0800 (PST) > From: cdromav at post.com > Received: from 209.214.90.174 (host-209-214-90-174.bct.bellsouth.net > [209.214.90.174]) > by trock.fabula.it (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24740 > for >; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:01:01 +0100 > Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:01:01 +0100 > Message-Id: <200002150901.KAA24740 at trock.fabula.it> > To: scn at scn.org > Subject: aviation > Sender: owner-scn at scn.org > Precedence: bulk > X-UIDL: 03d7ec9dc50747b291bae57a560098cb > > For 6 years The International AirCD has been the #1 selling database of > aircraft owners in the world. It stands out as being the most accurate, up > to date and complete source of aircraft owner/operator information, aviation > industry related companies, pilot records and aircraft performance data. > [All four data files come on the 1 CD-ROM] > > The AirCD includes over 1.2 million records containing complete > owner/operator data for every aircraft in 100+ countries worldwide. > Includes make, model, sn, tail #, owner/operator name, complete mailing > address, year built, data purchased, phone #'s, fax #'s, and more. The > complete list of countries covered can be found at: > http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/sunroof/663 > > Print mailing labels, export data into virtually any program, print detailed > contact reports. Create mail, email and fax databases and more. > > This is a CD database that every aviation related company should have. Give > us a call, fax or send us an email for further details. > > Visit us online at: http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/sunroof/663 > or drop us an email at: cdromav at post.com > > Thank you. > Infomart Corp. > 2234 N. Federal Hwy., Suite 469 > Boca Raton, FL 33431 > 561-243-1219 (tel) > 561-243-9889 (fax) > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > ---end--- > > -- > Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) | Systems Administrator, Thurman Ind, Bothell, WA > North Bend, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington > scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir > scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From scoth at scn.org Tue Feb 15 11:00:46 2000 From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on SCN.org) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:00:46 -0800 Subject: Spam from/about connected user (Subject: aviation) References: <200002151830.KAA24934@scn.org> Message-ID: <004701bf77e6$f95b31f0$078cc5ce@thurman.com> Well, there's three basic steps: file the case, get a judgement, collect the money. Filing the case costs money. Not a lot, but it does cost. We can ask for recovery of court costs as part of the settlement, so the filing fee would become part of the amount awarded. Getting a judgement involves proving the case with respect to the law. A prudent person would easily be able to find out that scn at scn.org is an email address in Seattle, Washington. We could prove it and probably get a judgement, especially if uncontested, which most of these probably would be. The biggest trick is finding out who to sue. Can't sue if you don't know who to sue. Collecting the money may be a problem. We can use the services of collection agencies. They would get their fees from the collection, _if_ they get any money. If the debtor is a corporation, and that corporation goes away, it's just like trying to get money from a dead person. We could pursue spammers, but we would have to know who they are and we'd have to find a way to get the money from them, _if_ they have any money. The best scenario is a business that decided to spam but cannot afford to close the corporation. The next best scenario is a judgement against and individual, allowing us to enter the judgement (until paid) on their credit records, pretty much barring them from getting loans. 'tain't easy. We'd have to pick our fights carefully. Scot -- Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) | Systems Administrator, Thurman Ind, Bothell, WA North Bend, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Schuler" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 10:30 AM Subject: Re: Spam from/about connected user (Subject: aviation) > > I'm way out of my league on this although I hate spam as much > as the next guy. > > I know that the state of Washington has a law against spamming > and there is actually a fine. Can we help in some way to make > sure that these spammers are actually *fined*? It would seem > like a great public service. > > -- Doug > > > From: "Scot Harkins on SCN.org" > > To: , , , > > , > > Cc: > > Subject: Spam from/about connected user (Subject: aviation) > > Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:19:54 -0800 > > > > Howdy, > > > > > > Fabula.it: please close the relay hole in your mail server on > > trock.fabula.it. This spammer stole your network and system resources. > > Others will follow to do the same since word of open relays travels fast. > > Save your systems from this abuse and the world from this crass form of > > advertising. Close the hole. > > > > BellSouth.net: I have verified that 209.214.90.174 maps to > > host-209-214-90-174.bct.bellsouth.net. Please follow up per your AUG/TOS. > > > > Post.com/iName: I do not know if cdromav is a legitimate address on your > > system. If so, then please pursue per your AUG/TOS. > > > > FortuneCity.com: Since the link comes up 404 I assume you have already shut > > down the site. Thank you! > > > > Note to all: The list address scn at scn.org is a reserved email list for the > > use of members of the Seattle Community Network. It is not a published > > address outside of that scope. Advertising to the list prohibited. Any > > claims that the address was obtained as an opt-in option are false. > > > > > > ---begin--- > > Received: from scn.org (root at scn [209.63.95.146]) > > by scn4.scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA13991; > > Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:14:32 -0800 (PST) > > Received: by scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA07921 > > for scn-outgoing; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:15:44 -0800 (PST) > > Received: from trock.fabula.it (IDENT:root at trock.fabula.it [194.185.69.72]) > > by scn.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA07916 > > for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:15:41 -0800 (PST) > > From: cdromav at post.com > > Received: from 209.214.90.174 (host-209-214-90-174.bct.bellsouth.net > > [209.214.90.174]) > > by trock.fabula.it (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24740 > > for > >; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:01:01 +0100 > > Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:01:01 +0100 > > Message-Id: <200002150901.KAA24740 at trock.fabula.it> > > To: scn at scn.org > > Subject: aviation > > Sender: owner-scn at scn.org > > Precedence: bulk > > X-UIDL: 03d7ec9dc50747b291bae57a560098cb > > > > For 6 years The International AirCD has been the #1 selling database of > > aircraft owners in the world. It stands out as being the most accurate, up > > to date and complete source of aircraft owner/operator information, aviation > > industry related companies, pilot records and aircraft performance data. > > [All four data files come on the 1 CD-ROM] > > > > The AirCD includes over 1.2 million records containing complete > > owner/operator data for every aircraft in 100+ countries worldwide. > > Includes make, model, sn, tail #, owner/operator name, complete mailing > > address, year built, data purchased, phone #'s, fax #'s, and more. The > > complete list of countries covered can be found at: > > http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/sunroof/663 > > > > Print mailing labels, export data into virtually any program, print detailed > > contact reports. Create mail, email and fax databases and more. > > > > This is a CD database that every aviation related company should have. Give > > us a call, fax or send us an email for further details. > > > > Visit us online at: http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/sunroof/663 > > or drop us an email at: cdromav at post.com > > > > Thank you. > > Infomart Corp. > > 2234 N. Federal Hwy., Suite 469 > > Boca Raton, FL 33431 > > 561-243-1219 (tel) > > 561-243-9889 (fax) > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > ---end--- > > > > -- > > Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) | Systems Administrator, Thurman Ind, Bothell, WA > > North Bend, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington > > scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir > > scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From scoth at scn.org Tue Feb 15 14:04:45 2000 From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on SCN.org) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:04:45 -0800 Subject: Spam from/about connected user (Subject: aviation) References: <200002152059.MAA08847@scn.org> Message-ID: <00f901bf7800$adfdae80$078cc5ce@thurman.com> It's a civil statute as opposed to a criminal statute. Criminal statutes provide for prosecution by the State (or jurisdictions within the state under state law) and are acted upon by government authorities. Criminal cases require proof beyond a reasonable doubt and come in levels of misdemeanor (minor offenses) and felony (major offenses). Civil statutes provide for relief for non-criminal acts. The injured party sues under the cited law(s) in the appropriate court/jurisdiction. The suing party only needs a preponderance of evidence, achieving greater than 50% proof to make the case. In the case of the anti-spam law you have to sue in order to obtain a judgement. The amounts awarded are provided in the law, being, I think, $500 per offense for individuals. ISP's have recourse of $1500 per event for network and system resources used, probably just for relay cases or the like. I'm not sure of the precedent to date on this law, or the specific guidelines for the judgements. The law is available via access.wa.gov from the online RCW. Scot -- Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) | Systems Administrator, Thurman Ind, Bothell, WA North Bend, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Schuler" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Spam from/about connected user (Subject: aviation) > There is a specific Washington state statute against spamming. > > I didn't think it was necessary to sue! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Wed Feb 16 10:17:07 2000 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:17:07 -0800 Subject: Training Message-ID: <200002161839.KAA26245@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes ============================ Online Ethics Should Begin in Classroom, Educators Say (NY Times)---Before it is legal for them to get behind the steering wheel of a car, would-be drivers have to read up on the rules of the road and pass a driving test. At the University of Delaware in Newark, Del., school officials take a similar approach to computer use. Before they are given access to the campus computer network, students receive a booklet on responsible computing, which in simple language explains why it is wrong to do things like disrupt a computer network or send a forged e-mail message. Then students must pass an online quiz to show that they have absorbed the lessons. The idea is not to add yet another requirement to frazzled freshman but to teach young people, whose technical savvy may outstrip their ethical smarts, about appropriate use of computer networks as they face a future in which study, work, entertainment and commerce become increasingly dependent on the Internet. "It's very important that students understand that an electronic community requires people to behave in a responsible way," said Leila C. Lyons, director of user services in information technologies at the college, which has about 15,000 students. No one suggests that a quick course in computer ethics would have deterred whoever launched the attacks last week on a number of major commercial Web sites. But increasingly educators and policy makers say that schools -- at the university, high school and even junior high level -- should do more to teach young people about right from wrong online. "The extent of your responsibility is commensurate with the extent of your reach," said Lowell W. Monke, a former high school technology teacher and now an assistant professor of education at Grinnell College in Iowa. "If we are going to give kids these very powerful instruments that reach around the world, we have a real responsibility to teach them how to use them beneficially." There are a number of efforts underway to try to do just that. A year and a half ago, the International Society for Technology in Education published a proposed set of national standards for technology education of high school age and younger students. In addition to being taught how to do things like develop a Web site, students are also called on to "exhibit legal and ethical behaviors when using information technology and discuss consequences of misuse," the standards say. Anita L. Best, an editor at the International Society for Technology in Education, said one reason the standard authors decided to include ethics was their consternation on hearing reports several years ago that school officials themselves sometimes crossed the ethical line by copying education software without paying for or licensing it. Meanwhile, the United States Justice Department, which for about two years has posted a Web page for children that discusses hacking and other online misbehavior, is working with an Internet trade association to develop an education campaign with public service announcements, about good citizenship online. And, Gary Chapman, a social policy researcher and director of the 21st Century Project at the University of Texas at Austin, is coordinating the "Responsible Use of the Internet" project for possible launch this summer. Working with a small foundation grant, graduate and high school students are developing a Web site that can be used by teachers as an online curriculum. The site will cover such issues as respect for privacy and intellectual property online as well as examine subjects like the pros and cons of using filtering software. Educators and policy experts say such efforts are necessary because schools have been so absorbed in the mechanics of bringing technology to the classroom and teaching students basic computer skills that ethics have often been neglected. "It's our impression that what young people are getting in school is mostly focused on 'how to' -- how to point and click, for example," Chapman said. Although most schools have "acceptable use policies" outlining correct behavior online, educators say these documents are often either flawed or insufficient to teach young people responsible use of computers. For one thing, they often remain unread, said Rodney J. Petersen, director of policy and planning for the office of information technology at the University of Maryland in College Park. Petersen has found that often students begin reading the acceptable use policy only after they have been called into his office for a possible violation of the rules. Also, younger students often simply do not understand the legalistic language found in many use policies. R. W. Burniske, a former high school English teacher and now an instructor at the University of Texas at Austin, recalls his 12-year-old son bringing home one such policy three years ago. "He didn't understand half the words in it," Burniske said, among them the word "prosecution." Burniske, who has developed a Web site, called CyberPilot's License with lessons about ethical behavior online, says there is another reason young people need computer education that goes beyond skills training: Often the online behavior students adapt comes from the no-holds-barred culture of chat rooms. In courses he teaches, which include online discussions, Burniske finds he frequently has to undo the lessons learned in chat rooms and teach students the civil discourse that is expected in a university community. Indeed, some people believe that it is because young computer users do not witness the result of abusive online behavior -- whether it is an e-mail flame or disruption to a Web site -- that they are lulled into thinking that behavior that would be unthinkable in the face-to- face world is acceptable in cyberspace. "Kids know its not O.K. to go into a neighbor's house uninvited or open someone else's mail," said Jessica R. Herrera, a lawyer with the computer crimes and intellectual property section of the Justice Department. "But they don't necessarily know that they're not supposed to do that on the Internet." Copyright 2000 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bkh at arilabs.com Wed Feb 16 13:34:56 2000 From: bkh at arilabs.com (Brian High) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:34:56 -0800 Subject: BPA: $$$ for wiring the northwest with fiber Message-ID: <001801bf78c5$ab77aa60$fd00a8c0@arilabs.com> X-No-Archive: Yes ______________________________________________________________________ Northwest energy agency's Internet push attracts corporate critics Copyright ) 2000 Nando Media Copyright ) 2000 Associated Press By JOHN HUGHES WASHINGTON (February 16, 2000 10:19 a.m. EST http://www.nandotimes.com) - The idea seemed grand - the federal agency that plugged the rural Northwest into the electric grid would help bring the Internet to small towns. The Bonneville Power Administration has been doing just that since 1996. The agency, as part of an upgrade of its electricity transmission system, has spent $127 million stringing 2,000 miles of fiber-optic cables along power lines in Washington state, Montana and Oregon. BPA plans another $126 million in fiber-optic investments in the next four years in the three states and Idaho. Places like Reedsport, Ore., a town of 4,855 along the West Coast, have had few options for high-speed digital access, as telecommunication providers first flocked to the more lucrative urban areas. But after the BPA strung cable through Reedsport last summer, residents saw the prospect of more choice and lower prices. Jim Hough, the city manager, envisions weary urban dwellers moving to Reedsport. They would take advantage of small-town life while hooking up to worldwide e-commerce. "Telecommunications technology is so important ... it is just as critical today as electrifying rural America was back in the 1930s," Hough said. But not everyone supports BPA's venture into telecommunications. First, private industry complained that government agencies have unfair advantages over private competitors, such as low-interest financing and some tax exemptions. Then on Capitol Hill last year, congressional critics called on BPA to write a report - due this spring - on the rationale for stringing the cable. Now some House members wonder why BPA seems to be making what the members call unauthorized investments in fiber optics. "The federal agency ... seems to be venturing into the commercial telecommunications business," said Reps. Bob Franks, R-N.J., and Marty Meehan, D-Mass., in a Jan. 28 letter to Energy Secretary Bill Richardson. Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-Ore., a fierce defender of the BPA, dismissed the letter as a case of "energy envy" by northeasterners who covet the Northwest's clean and cheap hydropower. "The letter is full of inaccuracies and hyperbole," DeFazio said. "This was clearly written by someone in the fiber-optic industry." To DeFazio, the effort by the Portland, Ore.-based BPA makes sense. The agency needs the fiber-optic lines to control remote, unmanned transmission stations in its four-state power system. The digital lines are replacing a microwave system that was less reliable and carried far less information. But here is where the dispute comes in. Anticipating rapid expansion in future years, BPA is installing far larger cables than it needs in the near term. The agency is then leasing the excess capacity to telecommunication companies, local consortiums and other providers. The excess capacity is so great, critics wonder if BPA is really stringing the cable just for its electricity grid - or a new telecom business. "Just looking at the quantity of fiber BPA is placing indicates the possibility that it is really building some of this network as a telecommunications provider," said Richard Potter, manager of state advocacy for GTE in Washington state. Dick Munson, executive director of the Northeast-Midwest Institute, contends the BPA is a "rogue federal agency." He calls the fiber-optic effort an "extremely backdoor, clandestine route to use taxpayer dollars to venture into a new business that in my mind is totally inappropriate." The institute, a Washington, D.C., policy group, examines what it sees as regional inequities and has long been critical of the BPA. BPA defends the leasing of the cable space. The move helps BPA ratepayers by recovering some of the cost of stringing the fiber-optics for the electric grid. Plus, the agency says the effort is a public service. BPA is leasing the cables at a discount rate in rural areas that have been underserved in high-speed, digital access. "Nobody is providing this service to the rural areas," said Perry Gruber, a BPA spokesman. "Bonneville has the unique positioning and legislative authority to do that - and that's what we're doing." Gruber said the Bonneville Project Act, along with an April 1994 letter from President Clinton, give the BPA all the authority it needs to lease the excess fibers. DeFazio said stringing fiber optics has become standard practice at scores of public and private utilities across the nation. "BPA absolutely has authority to do what it needs to do to ensure the integrity of its transmission system," he said. DeFazio and Gruber say ratepayer dollars - not taxpayer dollars - are being used for the fiber optics. Hough, the Reedsport city manager, credits the BPA for doing just what it did in the 1930s with electricity - giving rural areas access to a key technology. "It's important that the technology that is revolutionizing the communications industry is brought to rural America, rural Oregon, at the same time it is brought to the metropolitan areas," he said. "It makes sense." ______________________________________________________________________ Copyright ) 1999 Nando Media * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From thannon at scn.org Wed Feb 16 16:57:49 2000 From: thannon at scn.org (Tim Hannon) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:57:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: authorized vendor (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:15:20 PST From: Sue Blaylock To: thannon at scn.org Subject: Re: authorized vendor Tim, That sounds like a good plan. What are your fees for computer service? As far as my toys I have purchased my new sewing maching ($2,000) and now I have enough left over to buy a new ocmputer. My son-in-law is using my office as his office now so I wil wait until they buy a house and then get a computer. I got the Macwharehouse catalog and the iMacs are $799. The G3's are cheap too. I will wait for a while now. I will keep you in mind when we need service. We just spoke to David yesterday about getting a server since my computer runs the printer and I need to load some new programs and have no more room. I am taking an Adobe Photoshop class and can't even put the program on my computer. We'll see how long it takes to get this going. Good to hear from you - we'll keep in touch. SueB ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Thu Feb 17 03:07:46 2000 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 03:07:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good point, Andrew. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Andrew Higgins wrote: > > 2� Please remove the scna-board list from all future CC's in this conversation > 2� thread. > 2� This is not a board matter. > 2� > 2� -- Gianni Truzzi > > ������������������������������������������������������������������������������ > > BYLAWS OF SEATTLE COMMUNITY NETWORK ASSOCIATION > > ARTICLE 1. PURPOSE > > 1.1. The first objective of the Corporation shall be to develop, > > maintain and enhance a free community computer network. This purpose > ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ > includes providing open access to on-line information and communication > ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > services, encouraging the development of a wide range of community > ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ||||||||||| ~~ ~ |||| ||||| ~~ ~~~~~~~~~ > electronic information resources, and providing support for community > ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ > development and empowerment for Seattle and the surrounding area. > > > > Gianni, > > I beg to differ. The bylaw Article 1. Purpose 1. seems to disagree. This > is _most_ appropriately a board issue as it seems to have fermenting on > the vine in hw/software for some time. Not sour grapes, simply an > observation. The very I raise (SSL) is the one of the most frequently > asked questions from our users according to our very capable and au > courant webmaster Rod. He is the one person connected with SCN that I > believe to be most in touch with the average users' issues and concerns. > > The scna-board at scn.org address exists for communication *with* the board. > Otherwise, why would it appear on the webpage as such? If you wish to > establish a closed list or group alias for more private issues, please > feel free. > > -Andrew > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From mccallon at ywcaworks.org Thu Feb 17 10:47:53 2000 From: mccallon at ywcaworks.org (Brenda McCallon) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:47:53 -0800 Subject: Volunteers Opportunity-Seek Mentors Message-ID: <000f01bf7977$7febeb60$9b01a8c0@User.ywcaworks.org> The YWCA's Young Women's Leadership Institute- A 1999 KCTS Golden Apple Award winner-seeks diverse qualified women to volunteer as "personal coaches" for low-income, high school urban girls. This 15-month program empowers girls to achieve personal goals in an environment that challenges, supports and celebrates them. For orientation dates and more info, contact Brenda McCallon, 206/461-3214 or mccallon at ywcaworks.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janossz at scn.org Fri Feb 18 01:01:05 2000 From: janossz at scn.org (Janos Szablya) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 01:01:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Janos Szablya thoughts on the SCNA Election Message-ID: DON'T FORGET TO VOTE As you may know Janos Szablya (I) is (am) running for the Board of SCNA. I look at the people running and see a great group of highly qualified people. Then I say why should I run this time..... A lot of things have happened to SCN in the past few years that need to be addressed. The support to our volenteer base. This support comes at many levels and depending on your levels of responsiblity users, volenteers, webmasters, hardware, software,email training, help, services, outreach, computer put-it together for the poor people-people. Each goup of people requires a special support that is unique to there needs. I've been around for a while (since before we had a computer) my home served as an early meeting place. Having worked with each of the above mentioned groups at some time, I posses a unique understand on a fundemental level what we as volenteers need. Have you noticed I can't spell? Thats because I learned this one language 3rd (4th if you include the one I never use and can't remember). I have a good grasp of technology, (Tech. Cert. Braunscheig, Germany Electro-Mechanics '73) and a clue about software and Networks (Novel Cert. 1988 or '89), I became the first theater operator to sell tickets-online. (sold 3). And I do theater for a living because of my love of life. I am the Facilities and Events Manager at Bellevue Community College, I have worked For the Auburn School district as well as Seattle Rep. and Seattle Opera. I have a bunch of Certificates that don't mean squat to this job and enjoy High Steel Rigging (Kingdome stuff .... OH NO I"M ABOUT TO LOSE A JOB......SITE). We seem to have lost a little of the shine we have had. It is this shine that we need to rekindle. Any one of us running is capable of this Board Position. I have already voted since I am in Production on election Night... Joesph....dreamcoat. wanna see it write or details.... (see the humor here in the network....) Anyway... I can do the "Board Thing" as well as anyone, I have been on the Board of the Eclectic Union Theater (Acclaimed World Wide Multiple international award... including the Geneva International Press Club Medal, and The George Washington Freedom Medal) since the early 80's and we are in the black on all projects... The Hungarian Government contracted me to look at privatizing their theater industry... I've served as a King County Arts Commision Ejudicator (sp?) the same with the WAVE Awards. My point... I'm respected in my field... and appear to be well liked by my peers. I'M NOT STUPID (do not ask my wife to verify this statement) My position is that the Board needs to look at the essence of who we are and why we are here. As we enter the new decade (I'm trying not to say Millenium, cause I can't spell it) the internet that was a modem at 300 baud when we began in not moving so fast that we are on the edge of having helped create the next great momnet in Human History.. when we are all in touch and become one "family". We within our community have already reached that point and we as brothers and sisters are squabbleing over nothing, just as my brothers and sister and I did in our youth. We are 10 years old and about to face the teens. If we continue on the course we started on and are trying to stay on with the changing times, then we will survive. The reality is that the world is a vastly different place today that it was then. We must stand to our IDEALS.... But let's fight for them and not each other's resources.. we can share and "love"..... didn't mom teach us that? We will be buried if we can't rebuild the volunteer moral to the great levels of the past. I ask you all to vote your conscience. Vote with reason, AND VOTE FOR JANSO SZABLYA The guy who can't spell his own name JANOS * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From taera at scn.org Sat Feb 19 18:08:30 2000 From: taera at scn.org (Taera Ferity) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:08:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Membership? Message-ID: How can I find out if I became a member in time to come to the membership meeting next week and vote? I sent in my membership about the 20th of January, but I got back a letter dated February 8th. Does it really take that long? Can I vote? How do I find out? I don't know if I will be able to get a babysitter for the night of the meeting, so I may not be able to come. My kids do not find meetings fun and tend to get cranky if they have to sit more than about 10 minutes. Will there be childcare in a different room? If I did become a member in time, is there any way I can vote by mail or fax or something? Thank you very much, Taera taera at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Mon Feb 21 01:37:14 2000 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 01:37:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: Membership? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If Taera sent in a check with a date before the deadline, that should be accepted as bona fide effort to become a member within the deadline time. If there is any doubt, cannont someone on the board call our administrative service to confirm the date on the check. Or, have her fax the check to a board member? Or have her bring the check to the annual meeting, if she plans to come? In any case, Taera, if you received a ballot, that would be evidence of membership and you could vote. If you did not, try toget a copy ofthat check and fax it to a board member. I have a fax (281-1257) if you don't get another number offered to you, and I will be going to the meeting. (However, if you don't have a ballot by now, you will almost HAVE to come tothe meeting to vote and you could bring the check youself. (Or, perhaps your check register showing the date ofthe check might be enought.) Rich ______________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Taera Ferity wrote: > > > > How can I find out if I became a member in time to come to the membership > meeting next week and vote? I sent in my membership about the 20th of > January, but I got back a letter dated February 8th. Does it really take > that long? Can I vote? How do I find out? I don't know if I will be able > to get a babysitter for the night of the meeting, so I may not be able to > come. My kids do not find meetings fun and tend to get cranky if they have > to sit more than about 10 minutes. Will there be childcare in a different > room? If I did become a member in time, is there any way I can vote by > mail or fax or something? > > Thank you very much, > > Taera > > taera at scn.org > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org Mon Feb 21 08:40:13 2000 From: kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org (Kurt Cockrum) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:40:13 -0800 Subject: SCN: too much funny business and cognitive dissonance going on here Message-ID: <200002211640.IAA16015@grogatch.seaslug.org> I recently resurfaced after a long hiatus (not long enough, I'm afraid) and went to a Hardware Committee meeting where I learned that Rich Littleton is *sueing* various of the current Board of Directors (and their spouses, too!), to the tune of around $50K or so. I also learned that the reason that I hadn't heard anything up to now on this wire was because the BOD is constrained by legal advice from talking about it publicly. But this shouldn't constrain the *rest* of the SCN community from talking about it, maybe not a bit too soon. Now at the same time I see postings from Rich to both this list and the hardware list which appear to be "business as usual", which show his apparent concern with the smooth running of the organization, with no hint that the poster is involved in an adverse action against the organization sponsoring those lists. This is *way* too much cognitive dissonance for me to accept from a candidate to a high position. Frankly I don't see how that candidate could ever function effectively, after having so effectively self-{neutralized,destructed}. Of course, I also know that it's possible to simultaneously believe 2 (or more) mutually contradictory things, even without drugs. Orwell named (but didn't invent) the concept, called "doublethink". Rich, before your imminent self-immolation, would you care to explain yourself?? --kurt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan Mon Feb 21 16:36:58 2000 From: er-chan (SCN User) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:36:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: ucita.html Message-ID: <200002220036.QAA04102@scn.org> [IEEE-USA Position Statement] Opposing Adoption of the Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act (UCITA) By the States Approved By the IEEE-USA Board of Directors (Feb. 2000) On behalf of The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers - United States of America (IEEE-USA) and its nearly 240,000 U.S. members who are electrical, electronics, computer and software engineers, we wish to reiterate to the state legislatures the concerns regarding the Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act (UCITA) that we previously expressed to the National Council of Commissioners on State Laws (NCCUSL). We believe UCITA should be rejected by the states. UCITA would have a widespread, complex impact including: (a) its interaction with the existing statutes, principles, and interpretations of Federal intellectual property law; (b) the provisions currently found in "shrink wrap" and "click-through" software agreements -- many of them questionable or unenforceable under current law -- that UCITA seeks to make enforceable; and (c) UCITA's effect on existing business practices and reasonable purchaser expectations. Into the existing and evolving legal and business situation, UCITA would inject an ironclad statutory framework that is very easy to abuse to the serious detriment of consumers, large business users, and small business users of computer software, software developers, computer consultants and the general public. Many organizations, including 24 state Attorneys General, the staffs of the Bureau of Competition, Bureau of Consumer Protection, and Policy Planning Office of the Federal Trade Commission, professional and trade associations, consumer groups, the American Law Institute (originally NCCUSL's partner in drafting UCITA), and others have expressed opposition or concern regarding UCITA. In some cases the concerns of these organizations parallel ours, and in other cases they raise additional issues. Our concerns are in the following areas: 1. By changing what would otherwise be considered a sale into a licensing transaction, UCITA permits software publishers to enforce contract provisions that may be onerous, burdensome or unreasonable, and places on the purchaser the burden and cost of proving that these provisions are unconscionable or "against fundamental public policy." Examples of these provisions include prohibitions against public criticism of the software and limitations on purchasers' rights to sell or dispose of software. The first provision prohibits the reviews, comparisons, and benchmark testing that are critical for an informed, competitive marketplace. The second issue could legally complicate transactions including corporate mergers/acquisitions, sales of small businesses, the operation of businesses dealing in second-hand software, and even yard sales. 2. UCITA would undermine the protections provided by Federal intellectual property law and upset the carefully achieved balance between owners and purchasers of intellectual property. For example, one major protection is that "fair use" case law and statutory copyright law permit "reverse engineering" for certain important purposes, such as development of compatible (interoperable) software products and information security testing. Reverse engineering is the examination of software to identify and analyze its internal elements. Current shrink-wrap agreements often contain strict provisions forbidding reverse engineering. By making these provisions enforceable, UCITA would stifle innovation and competition in the software industry, and would straightjacket efforts of users to provide information security protection for their systems. 3. UCITA allows software publishers to disclaim warranties and consequential damages even for software defects known to the publisher prior to sale, undisclosed to the buyer, and having damages that can be reasonably foreseen. For example, under UCITA a software publisher could not only prohibit publication of information on security vulnerabilities that users identify but could avoid responsibility for fixing these vulnerabilities. 4. By legalizing the choices of law and forum often included in software agreements, especially shrink-wrap and click-through, UCITA would allow software publishers to make expensive and burdensome any efforts by purchasers to protect their rights. This includes issues that for a sale would be handled in local small-claims courts. 5. The "self-help" provisions of UCITA would allow software publishers to embed security vulnerabilities and other functions in their software that facilitate "denial-of-service" attacks (remote disablement or destruction of the software) while avoiding liability for accidental triggering of the attacks or exploitation of these functions by malicious intruders. We urge the state legislatures to reject UCITA. This statement was developed by the Committee on Communications and Information Policy and the Intellectual Property Committee of The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers - United States of America (IEEE-USA), and represents the considered judgment of a group of U.S. IEEE members with expertise in the subject field. The IEEE-USA promotes the careers and public-policy interests of the nearly 240,000 electrical, electronics, computer and software engineers who are U.S. members of the IEEE. _________________________________________________________________ | [1]Top of Page | [2]Position Statements | [3]Policy Forum | [4]IEEE-USA | _________________________________________________________________ Last Updated: 18 Feb. 2000 Staff Contact: Deborah Rudolph, [5]d.rudolph at ieee.org [6]Copyright © 2000 The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Inc. Permission to copy granted for non-commercial uses with appropriate attribution. References 1. http://www.ieeeusa.org/forum/POSITIONS/ucita.html#top 2. http://www.ieeeusa.org/forum/POSITIONS/index.html 3. http://www.ieeeusa.org/forum/index.html 4. http://www.ieeeusa.org/default.asp 5. mailto:d.rudolph at ieee.org 6. http://www.ieee.org/about/documentation/copyright * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From grayfox at foxinternet.net Mon Feb 21 17:12:20 2000 From: grayfox at foxinternet.net (Kenneth Crandall) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:12:20 -0800 Subject: SCN: RE: too much funny business and cognitive dissonance going on here In-Reply-To: <200002211640.IAA16015@grogatch.seaslug.org> Message-ID: This blows my mind away. Several months ago there was communication going on about how to involve people more actively as volunteers in the SCN program. Rich was one of the correspondents. If this statement is true, I can't think of a more destructive way to communicate to prospective and current volunteers. If this goes through, I don't believe there will be anymore arguments about SCN actions or lack of action because most volunteers will just quit. I hope that I hear that this is a mistake. Ken Crandall -----Original Message----- From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Kurt Cockrum Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 8:40 AM To: scn at scn.org Subject: SCN: too much funny business and cognitive dissonance going on here I recently resurfaced after a long hiatus (not long enough, I'm afraid) and went to a Hardware Committee meeting where I learned that Rich Littleton is *sueing* various of the current Board of Directors (and their spouses, too!), to the tune of around $50K or so. Rich, before your imminent self-immolation, would you care to explain yourself?? --kurt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From gtruzzi at scn.org Mon Feb 21 17:37:26 2000 From: gtruzzi at scn.org (Gianni Truzzi) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:37:26 -0800 Subject: SCN: Re: Membership? References: Message-ID: <38B1E856.1E227453@scn.org> Taera: Thanks for your inquiry. You are eligible to vote in the upcoming election. However, your membership was not received in time for us to send you a mail-in ballot, and it is not possible now for us to get one to you that can be returned by the deadline of the 23rd. Unfortunately, child care will not be available at the meeting, which is the best way to ensure your vote is counted. Alternatively, our board secretary has agreed to receive proxys by fax. You may get the proxy form at: http://www.scn.org/scna/election00/proxy.html I appreciate your dedication to SCNA, and hope you are able to participate. -- Gianni Truzzi President, SCNA Taera Ferity wrote: > > How can I find out if I became a member in time to come to the membership > meeting next week and vote? I sent in my membership about the 20th of > January, but I got back a letter dated February 8th. Does it really take > that long? Can I vote? How do I find out? I don't know if I will be able > to get a babysitter for the night of the meeting, so I may not be able to > come. My kids do not find meetings fun and tend to get cranky if they have > to sit more than about 10 minutes. Will there be childcare in a different > room? If I did become a member in time, is there any way I can vote by > mail or fax or something? > > Thank you very much, > > Taera > > taera at scn.org > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Tue Feb 22 00:18:28 2000 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:18:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: too much funny business and cognitive dissonance going on here In-Reply-To: <200002211640.IAA16015@grogatch.seaslug.org> Message-ID: Rich Littleton's suit against various members of the SCNA Board of Directors, the Governance Committee, and the e-mail training group stems from his dismissal from the e-mail training group. He's claiming that the various defendants either defamed him, or violated the by-laws in disciplining him. He's asking for cash damages, that the Board members be removed from office, and all of the defendants enjoined from making decisions in their roles is SCN. (Just a simple recital of the facts, Rich!) The reason that we have not heard of this before is that the Board was advised to not make any statements, neither publicly (perhaps for fear that Rich would accuse them of defamation, or misuse of office) nor via any mailing list. That last bit is curious--legal counsel is apparently concerned lest Rich have our computers seized so that the contents of the mailing lists be available for evidence. (If I don't have this quite right perhaps the Board would supply more accurate information?) WAKE UP, FOLKS! This is quite possible. Just like on the evening news, where the sheriff's deputies are carrying out the computer equipment of some alleged "hacker". (Or even some business man whose computer has been used in crime, with or without his knowledge.) It works like this. A party to a suit asks the court for authority to seize evidence, and since the other party is not present to contest the matter (they are not even notified, lest they tamper with the evidence), the judge usually agrees with whatever is requested. So Rich makes a list: the physical media--that's our disk drives, and since he doesn't know which ones have the mailing lists he asks for all of them--and everything necessary to access the files--that's the rest of the system. He gives that list to the sheriff, and the first thing we know about it is when the library calls to tell us that the system just went out the door. No system! Just a big patch of air. And a year or more before the system is returned, and possibly damaged. Based on real, actual cases. And just like that Joan Baez song, there would be no time to say good-bye--SCN could just disappear. Even if Rich doesn't have the system seized, the legal costs could easily sink us. Yup, SCN could be history any day now. (No, Rich, I am not defaming you. I have merely stated possible consequences to SCN of actions that you have deliberately and freely initiated. Nothing in this message states or implies that you are an idiot or self-aggrandizing jerk, not even a hairy blue baboon. Nor has anyone communicated to me, privately or publicly, why people in e-mail training would not want to work with you, nor what you were disciplined for.) === JJ ================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From femme2 at scn.org Tue Feb 22 09:21:42 2000 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:21:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: too much funny business and cognitive dissonance going on here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, JJ. And Kurt. I think SCN users/members deserve to know that the organization is having these difficulties. There is such a thing as a frivolous lawsuit and this seems to be one of them. One would hope that anyone with a grain of sense would interpret it that way and not take the drastic step of seizing equipment to search for incriminating e-mails. I assume that the obvious has been done -- pick up the phone and call Rich? This is so ridiculous. Lorraine femme2 at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bhewitt at scn.org Tue Feb 22 09:38:22 2000 From: bhewitt at scn.org (Bob Hewitt) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:38:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: too much funny business and cognitive dissonance going on here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > No system! Just a big patch of air. And a year or more before the system > is returned, and possibly damaged. Based on real, actual cases. And just > like that Joan Baez song, there would be no time to say good-bye--SCN > could just disappear. (Don't tell Rod. Let's see if he notices a difference in turn-around time for the IMAP project... ) A fresh start! It's an ill wind, that blows no good. Which machine to put news on? ssccnn.org doesn't seem to be taken. Who's going to stand in for Aki, Randy, et c... ? Welcome back, Kurt. ' ... cognitive dissonance ... ' That's putting it kindly. Haven't heard that phrase for a while. Is this matter in the public record elsewhere? It would be good to see what the actual wording is. Bob Hewitt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From rockybay at scn.org Tue Feb 22 14:24:35 2000 From: rockybay at scn.org (Malcolm Taran) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:24:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Voting for BOD, was Re: SCN: Re: Membership? In-Reply-To: <38B1E856.1E227453@scn.org> Message-ID: May I (or others) leave ballot envelopes with the librarian at University Branch before the 7p meeting? I have commitments Wednesday from 4:30p on. Thanks Malcolm Taran * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Tue Feb 22 15:45:21 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (AH) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:45:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... was: Re: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? Message-ID: Rod, I guess you could call w3m a "toy", but only if you will agree that Lynx is also a toy. Both are fully functional text browsers (with quirks and limitations, as all browsers do.) The reason I raised this issue of an upgrade for Lynx 2.7.2 was the absence of support for SSL. This newer browser will support SSL straight out of the box. What's to preclude the use of both browsers on SCN? What can I do to expedite the installation of one and/or the upgrade of the other? -Andrew ������������������������������������������������������������������������������ Link: The High-Tech How Not to be Seen, Part 5 URL: http://www.micro-linux.com/ws/013.html The High-Tech How Not to be Seen, Part 5 by Marcel Gagn� 3-Dec-1999 While I was hunting around for applications for SSL (I do check these things out, you know), I found a cool little text-only browser. Yes, I admit it; I often find myself using Lynx when I am on a text-only telnet connection with a customer and I need to look for something on the 'net. That's how I ran across W3M, a text-only browser like lynx, only more so. Aside from its ability to deal with SSL connections, it can also handle tables and frames and color. You can even use your mouse (with gpm) to click your way from URL to URL. All this for the low, low price of ... nothing. The programmer has a sense of humour, evident from his README file. Here it is in its entirety. If you can read English, see doc/*. If you can read Japanese, see doc-jp/*. If you can read both, read both and correct English. :-) W3M is worth checking out. The appropriate address is http://ei5nazha.yz.yamagata-u.ac.jp/~aito/w3m/eng/. 2� 2� > This new browser (w3m) sounds like it is ahead of Lynx and may 2� > run on Solaris. 2� > 2� > I have not tried it, but review sounds interesting. 2� >... 2� > http://ei5nazha.yz.yamagata-u.ac.jp/~aito/w3m/eng/ 2� 2� Brian, 2� 2� w3m is running in another window on my desktop at the moment. 2� It's interesting but seems incomplete. (This is the Win32 2� version that uses Cygnus' cygwin32 bash shell or actually the 2� tools and API that come with that shell. You can get cygwin32 2� from cygnus.com. You'll have to start it up before running w3m.) 2� 2� The display of tables and frames is good, from what little 2� I've seen so far. But the user interface is underdeveloped. Or 2� else I just haven't found the right help files for it. It might 2� be interesting to install it on SCN, though. 2� 2� I'm looking at the Compline Choir with it now, and at the 2� same page in Netscape 4.7 in another window. I haven't yet found 2� the info about using viewing graphics with an external viewer. 2� Well, it's an interesting toy, at least. But I'm going to have 2� to put it away and catch up with other stuff. 2� 2� Rod 2� ������������������������������������������������������������������������������ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Tue Feb 22 16:15:27 2000 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:15:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... was: Re: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > ... The reason I raised this issue of an upgrade for Lynx 2.7.2 was > the absence of support for SSL. This newer browser will support SSL > straight out of the box. What's to preclude the use of both > browsers on SCN? What can I do to expedite the installation of one > and/or the upgrade of the other? Andrew, The latest Unix version of w3m is newer than the one I tried today, and the source code for it is now in /home/webadm/work/w3m-0.1.6.tar.gz Supposedly it can run on SunOS 4.1.x, which means that it could be installed for general use on the login machine. Ask the techies at hardware at scn.org. They'll help you. Seriously, they will. I have to go do some English Major stuff now. Let me know how it turns out. Rod * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Tue Feb 22 18:00:34 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (AH) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:00:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... was: Re: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue 22 Feb 2000 Rod Clark wrote: 2� techies at hardware at scn.org. They'll help you. Seriously, they 2� will. I have to go do some English Major stuff now. Let me know Rod, I'm really very sorry to have to say this, really made quite sad, but no - they will not. I've been told by Rhodes Hileman that this thread, presumably the discussion(s) on it are inappropriate for the Operations mailing list . I was told by Gianni Truzzi , president of the Board Of Directors, that it was an inappropriate issue for the Board's mailing list and should be brought to Operations. No one seems willing to acknowledge the fact that SCN is offering outdated, substandard software options for our users. Acceptance of that reality would be a first step toward effecting change. But having been rebuffed by both the Board and Operations, who do I turn to? Will anyone take responsibility? -Andrew ������������������������������������������������������������������������������ 2� > ... The reason I raised this issue of an upgrade for Lynx 2.7.2 was 2� > the absence of support for SSL. This newer browser will support SSL 2� > straight out of the box. What's to preclude the use of both 2� > browsers on SCN? What can I do to expedite the installation of one 2� > and/or the upgrade of the other? 2� 2� Andrew, 2� 2� The latest Unix version of w3m is newer than the one I tried 2� today, and the source code for it is now in 2� 2� /home/webadm/work/w3m-0.1.6.tar.gz 2� 2� Supposedly it can run on SunOS 4.1.x, which means that it 2� could be installed for general use on the login machine. Ask the 2� techies at hardware at scn.org. They'll help you. Seriously, they 2� will. I have to go do some English Major stuff now. Let me know 2� how it turns out. 2� 2� Rod 2� ������������������������������������������������������������������������������ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Tue Feb 22 18:55:08 2000 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:55:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Good Things Come to Those Who Wait Message-ID: A very big THANK YOU to Malcolm for that wonderful delivery and A very big THANK YOU to Allen for getting me set up and running and A very big THANK YOU to Doggie for coming back home. Danke Schoen, Merci, Gracias and any other way you can think of! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Tue Feb 22 22:14:48 2000 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:14:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: too much funny business and cognitive dissonance going on here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whoooaaaaa, there Nelly! Let's get a rein on this here buckin' and a-yellin'. I'll be at the meeting Wed. nite and will answer any questions. All this panicking without telephoning me is just unseemly for grown up boys and girls. See you Wedn. nite. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Tue Feb 22 22:38:06 2000 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:38:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: too much funny business and cognitive dissonance going on here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Rich Littleton wrote: > Whoooaaaaa, there Nelly! Let's get a rein on this here buckin' and > a-yellin'. > > I'll be at the meeting Wed. nite and will answer any questions. > Why don't you explain this on the list, for the benefit of everyone that can't make it to the meeting? Is there any problem with that? I am quite curious as to which by-law you are accusing these Board members to have violated, and others undoubtably are wondering just what you were disciplined for. You are the one bucking; perhaps you would tell us why? Come on Rich, you have been advocating "openess" for several years. So open up and tell us what is going on. === JJ ================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Tue Feb 22 22:51:04 2000 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:51:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: explaining... Message-ID: <200002230651.WAA29311@scn.org> I agree with JJ. Some people are also voting via fax and they might like to know what's up. I'm assuming that the lawsuit is actually now a reality since Rich didn't deny it. Now we'd like to know why he found this approach a desirable way to address his concerns. -- Doug > Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:38:06 -0800 (PST) > From: "J. Johnson" > To: Rich Littleton > cc: scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: SCN: too much funny business and cognitive dissonance going on here > > On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Rich Littleton wrote: > > > Whoooaaaaa, there Nelly! Let's get a rein on this here buckin' and > > a-yellin'. > > > > I'll be at the meeting Wed. nite and will answer any questions. > > > > Why don't you explain this on the list, for the benefit of everyone that > can't make it to the meeting? Is there any problem with that? > > I am quite curious as to which by-law you are accusing these Board members > to have violated, and others undoubtably are wondering just what you were > disciplined for. You are the one bucking; perhaps you would tell us why? > > Come on Rich, you have been advocating "openess" for several years. So > open up and tell us what is going on. > > === JJ ================================================================= > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Tue Feb 22 23:06:20 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (AH) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:06:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... was: Re: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? Message-ID: 2� 2� Otherwise be patient. The changes you seek will take about two years to 2� implement unless we get more resources. 2� I have suggested a number of changes. I have *asked* only that a patch allowing SSL be applied to an existing program. That would take two years to accomplish? If so, why? -Andrew PATIENCE, n. A minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue. A. Bierce ,_____,_____, 6 __ _ User: bb156 T\ :. .^\,_/__|_ /_| _/_ _ )__/'_ _ ' _ Domain: scn.org I ^T=====;=====T /| ( |/)(// (-((/ / //(/(///)_) Seattle, WA I I _|_| _/_/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at saltmine.com Wed Feb 23 08:03:35 2000 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:03:35 -0800 Subject: SCN: RE: Re: OPS: w3m ... was: Re: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? Message-ID: <01BF7DD4.7CBC09A0.jmabel@saltmine.com> Seems to me Andrew is being plenty patient. If we can't work out how to do normal software patches in a timeframe less than "years", we have a serious problem we need to address. If SCN's decision not to fundraise from corporations and to focus on a volunteer staff leads directly to this sort of consequence, I think this consequence calls that decision into question. JM -----Original Message----- From: AH [SMTP:bb156 at scn.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 11:06 PM To: Rhodes at smsys.com Cc: scn at scn.org; Rod Clark; gtruzzi at scn.org; kv9x at scn.org; Randy Groves Subject: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... was: Re: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? [Joe Mabel] 2c 2c Otherwise be patient. The changes you seek will take about two years to 2c implement unless we get more resources. 2c I have suggested a number of changes. I have *asked* only that a patch allowing SSL be applied to an existing program. That would take two years to accomplish? If so, why? -Andrew PATIENCE, n. A minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue. A. Bierce ,_____,_____, 6 __ _ User: bb156 T\ :. .^\,_/__|_ /_| _/_ _ )__/'_ _ ' _ Domain: scn.org I ^T=====;=====T /| ( |/)(// (-((/ / //(/(///)_) Seattle, WA I I _|_| _/_/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Wed Feb 23 12:13:38 2000 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:13:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: "Librarians Crossing the Line!" Message-ID: <200002232013.MAA09447@scn.org> Ann has done lots of very interesting work with libraries and community networks. I know that Olympia is probably a bit out of your way... -- Doug ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please forward to appropriate people and lists -- especially librarians! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ COMMUNITY CONNECTIONS AND THE DIGITAL DIVIDE "Librarians Crossing the Line!" A public presentation by Ann Bishop University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign On the evening of March 1st, from 6:30-7:30 PM in Lecture Hall 3 at The Evergreen State College, Ann Bishop, an assistant professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, will discuss her work on the community information frontier highlighting the implications for libraries who wish to help reduce the "digital divide" in their local communities. With computer technology costs declining and universal federal telecommunications services increasing, libraries are now positioned to play a more vital role in addressing the impact of trends that separate users of networked information services. Responding to a growing need for more communication channels, Ann will discuss a new project, funded by the Institute of Museum and Library Services in which library and information science professionals will collaborate with members of 'SisterNet' to develop new web-based information resources devoted to the health concerns of African-American women. Ann's work focuses on the use of information and communication in social contexts ranging from library use in low income neighborhoods, how computers affect quality of life, to the development of digital libraries and community networks. This presentation, part of the Plato Royalty Lecture Series at The Evergreen State College, will address this year's public computing theme "Drowning in a sea of information: Too much and of the wrong kind?" For more information on this event, contact Doug Schuler, 206.634.0752 or dschuler at evergreen.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From gtruzzi at scn.org Wed Feb 23 14:48:32 2000 From: gtruzzi at scn.org (Gianni Truzzi) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:48:32 -0800 Subject: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... References: <01BF7DD4.7CBC09A0.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: <38B463C0.79969BCA@scn.org> Joe Mabel wrote: > If SCN's decision not to fundraise from corporations and to focus on a > volunteer > staff leads directly to this sort of consequence, I think this consequence > calls that decision into question. Allow me to correct this mistaken belief. The Board of SCNA has NOT made any such decision. In fact, we expect to begin soliciting corporate and foundation funding rather vigorously in the coming months. However, that kind of fundraising effort has taken a back seat to other efforts for which it would be prerequisite. It's simply been a matter of allocating resources. Much like the situation in the Operations group. Like Rhodes, the Board would welcome any offer of knowledgeable help from the membership to get done everything that needs doing. -- Gianni * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From guests at scn.org Wed Feb 23 14:58:38 2000 From: guests at scn.org (Steve and Melissa Guest) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:58:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: RE: Re: OPS: w3m ... was: Re: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? In-Reply-To: <01BF7DD4.7CBC09A0.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: Hi Folks There are several issues here and the water seems to be a little cloudy. I would like to see if I can summarize what seems to be at issue here. 1) Should SCN be offering the most up to date versions of software? 2) Should SCN react positively to all user's requests for software? 3) Should SCN have a forum for user's to wish-list changes? I am not trying to initially solve the current issue, but want to ensure we are clear that we have these three, at least, issues under discussion. Of course, I too have a view on all three. >From my personal point of view, the issue is not one of funds, it is one of volunteer time. SCN has a team of operations volunteers that are currently working on many issues that may not be apparent. 1) Remember the sighs as we got FreePort and the Sun OS to limp past Y2K challenges. Well that had several volunteers installing patches on our many machines. 2) In addition, we had others working on a FreePort replacement, just in case. 3) There is also the urgent need to get our email services integrated. This has now become a major priority. 4) While others are working on the installation of security to stop us being attacked, again. Moreover, they have been successful. 5) Plus we have volunteers working on the plans to move our equipment, when they raise the library. 6) New software has to be installed, modified, evaluated, and tested to ensure that we do not make the service vulnerable to misuse. 7) Ensuring new volunteers can be integrated and do not compromise the service is another time-sink. 8) We have to run the service 24-7 which also requires vigilant volunteers. We are not an ISP with paid staff and volunteers with the level of skill required to do these tasks are not common. Therefore, we have to set some priorities. Sometimes these are not clear to our users. It would be great to be able to provide everything that everybody wanted - but the string is only so long. Currently, we have it stretched to its limit and shouting cannot improve that. In fact it would be great if some would acknowledge the hard work the team is doing and not simply criticize their apparent failings. Again it would be great to do everything for everyone, but even Microsoft can't manage that. Therefore, it would be wonderful if we could all work together and maybe praise their hard work sometimes. Then maybe user's requests will be seen as enhancements worth doing rather than their shortfalls. Thanks Steve -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- Melissa & Steve Guest Seattle Community Network 425 653 7353 - 8am to 11pm http://www.scn.org "Supporting People and Communities with Free Internet Services" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From muddman at scn.org Wed Feb 23 15:26:52 2000 From: muddman at scn.org (Steve Mudd) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 15:26:52 -0800 Subject: SCN: explaining the funny business Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000223152210.00a6ed60@mail.scn.org> Hey SCN- I don't follow every thread on this list, but I'm glad I caught this one. I had no idea that Rich Littleton was suing SCNA board members (and their spouses?). I moved from Seattle a couple of years ago, but at one time I was a regular SCN vol, and still think of it as my 'net roots. The idea that a freenet could be muzzled and eviscerated by a couple of frivolous suits seems ridiculous, and weird. I would be interested in hearing Rich present a rational defense for his actions. Say Rich, maybe you should add a line to your board candidate page, like "...and I'll sue the socks off anyone who offends me." -Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Schuler" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 10:51 PM Subject: SCN: explaining... > I agree with JJ. Some people are also voting via fax and they > might like to know what's up. > > I'm assuming that the lawsuit is actually now a reality since Rich didn't > deny it. Now we'd like to know why he found this approach a desirable way to > address his concerns. > > -- Doug > > > Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:38:06 -0800 (PST) > > From: "J. Johnson" > > To: Rich Littleton > > cc: scn at scn.org > > Subject: Re: SCN: too much funny business and cognitive dissonance going on here > > > > On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Rich Littleton wrote: > > > > > Whoooaaaaa, there Nelly! Let's get a rein on this here buckin' and > > > a-yellin'. > > > > > > I'll be at the meeting Wed. nite and will answer any questions. > > > > > > > Why don't you explain this on the list, for the benefit of everyone that > > can't make it to the meeting? Is there any problem with that? > > > > I am quite curious as to which by-law you are accusing these Board members > > to have violated, and others undoubtably are wondering just what you were > > disciplined for. You are the one bucking; perhaps you would tell us why? > > > > Come on Rich, you have been advocating "openess" for several years. So > > open up and tell us what is going on. > > > > === JJ ================================================================= > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Wed Feb 23 15:49:07 2000 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 15:49:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... was: Re: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Rod, > ... But having been rebuffed by both the Board and > Operations, who do I turn to? anyone take responsibility? ... Andrew, You're less rebuffed than you think you are, but still this will take some time. Scot Harkins has initially compiled w3m, and it has run into some glitches with a few functions in the C libraries that will have to be sorted out. But it is in work. Gianni is right that it's up to Operations to deal with this. Rhodes and Ops have to keep the system up, increase its reliability, improve mail operations, get the new Linux machines ready to add to the network so that SCN can keep up with its growth, and focus on other such vital activities. Text-based SSL is a nice addition, but it's not close to being as essential as those things are. Even so, access to secure services on the Web is useful enough even to text-only users that this item has been bumped up a bit, compared to how it was viewed earlier when secure services were less common, and Scot has found some time for this project. The Ops people are continuing to evaluate a variety of priorities and how to set them, and everyone is concerned about how to bring more resources in to SCN. Rod * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From scoth at scn.org Wed Feb 23 16:12:13 2000 From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on SCN.org) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:12:13 -0800 Subject: SCN: Re: w3m References: Message-ID: <01a201bf7e5b$cec6ec10$078cc5ce@thurman.com> ...and understand my two biggies right now are a couple of other projects regarding email and name services. While I'll try to get a working copy running, I can't guarantee that anything will finally come of it. We're looking at the SSL stuff, too, since that comes up as part of this. -- Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) | Systems Administrator, Thurman Ind, Bothell, WA North Bend, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Clark" To: "AH" Cc: ; "Brian High" ; "Rhodes Hileman" ; "Gianni Truzzi" Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 3:49 PM Subject: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... was: Re: Why have we not upgraded Lynx? > > Rod, > > ... But having been rebuffed by both the Board and > > Operations, who do I turn to? anyone take responsibility? ... > > Andrew, > > You're less rebuffed than you think you are, but still this > will take some time. Scot Harkins has initially compiled w3m, ... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb156 at scn.org Wed Feb 23 16:35:32 2000 From: bb156 at scn.org (AH) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:35:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 2� 2� Joe Mabel wrote: 2� 2� > If SCN's decision not to fundraise from corporations and to focus on a 2� > volunteer 2� > staff leads directly to this sort of consequence, I think this consequence 2� > calls that decision into question. 2� On Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Gianni Truzzi wrote: 2� 2� Allow me to correct this mistaken belief. The Board of SCNA has NOT made 2� any such decision. In fact, we expect to begin soliciting corporate and 2� foundation funding rather vigorously in the coming months. However, that 2� kind of fundraising effort has taken a back seat to other efforts for 2� which it would be prerequisite. It's simply been a matter of allocating 2� This "mistaken" belief was first espoused by a member of the Board, and made to sound like a policy decision. http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/msg00022.html Perhaps if we had published minutes it could be made more clear how this confusion arose... -Andrew * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Wed Feb 23 23:37:35 2000 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:37:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Andrew Higgins wrote: > 2� Joe Mabel wrote: > 2� > If SCN's decision not to fundraise from corporations and to focus on a > 2� > volunteer > 2� > staff leads directly to this sort of consequence, I think this consequence > 2� > calls that decision into question. > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Gianni Truzzi wrote: > 2� Allow me to correct this mistaken belief. The Board of SCNA has NOT made > 2� any such decision. In fact, we expect to begin soliciting corporate and > 2� foundation funding rather vigorously in the coming months. However, that > 2� kind of fundraising effort has taken a back seat to other efforts for > 2� which it would be prerequisite. It's simply been a matter of allocating > > This "mistaken" belief was first espoused by a member of the Board, and > made to sound like a policy decision. > > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/msg00022.html > > Perhaps if we had published minutes it could be made more clear how this > confusion arose... Andrew, There's never been any confusion that (until the very recent City education grant) almost all of SCN's revenues have come from small personal contributions to CPSR and then to SCNA, and from small contributions by users for new accounts. The City grant was a big departure for SCN, but still we don't depend on it for providing core services. Those still come from the sum of all the small personal contributions. This is not accidental, and CPSR set it up that way for a reason. That reason was to avoid any possibility of anything other than a competely free and independent viewpoint that would take into account only the interests of the membership and not of any partner organizations, government agencies, underwriting businesses or any other entities at all. There is a proposal for SCN, called SCN II, that Gianni drafted recently and that he mentioned during the Annual Meeting, that would add greatly to the range of possible funding sources. In the process, it would make membership contributions relatively much less important because they could not reasonably be expected to rise to meet the funding levels necessary to provide greatly improved services to underserved consituencies and otherwise greatly increase SCN's activities. The SCN II proposal has been circulated in draft form and I hope that you'll soon have a chance to study and comment on it. Since this is an important new initiative, we all should be interested in shaping it to provide the best chance for SCN to grow and at the same time to keep a stable, dependable funding base and keep its independence. I believe the SCN II proposal can adequately addresses these concerns, and also believe that everyone in the Association who is concerned should have the chance to contribute something to this discusion as we go forward. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From rockybay at scn.org Thu Feb 24 00:56:00 2000 From: rockybay at scn.org (Malcolm Taran) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 00:56:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: explaining the funny business In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000223152210.00a6ed60@mail.scn.org> Message-ID: I had another important meeting unfortunately announced for Wednesday evening, so I was unable to attend the annual meeting. Was it fun? On Tuesday, February 22, 2000 10:51 PM Doug Schuler wrote > I agree with JJ. Some people are also voting via fax and they > might like to know what's up. For the benefit of those following this thread (or SCN), --> would someone not legally constrained please post notes of the annual meeting? *** This while the evening is still relatively fresh in mind. *** (Besides, it'd be interesting to compare and contrast with minutes of the meeting.) With thanks to all who make SCN both real as well as virtual Malcolm Taran * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Thu Feb 24 01:12:22 2000 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 01:12:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Meeting: "It's not a dumb lawsuit." Message-ID: SCN's 2000 annual meeting was especially interesting because of Board candidate Rich Littleton's statements regarding his suit against the Board. And your intrepid reporter was taking notes! (Or trying to. Rich was rambling a bit; the following is the clear bits that I caught. Perhaps others who were there can augment this, or vouch for general authenticity.) The issue broke when one of the other candidates, lawyer Tim McCormack, asked what this "dumb lawsuit" was all about. Rich's reply: "It's not a dumb lawsuit." The bases are (apparently): 1) that upon being "bounced" from the e-mail training group "they have not told me what the grounds were"; 2) that "Governance ... has not moved on my complaint" [??]; and 3) that various Board members were acting "outside of the rules". The next question was from Kurt: what is the positive outcome [to SCN] to be had from this suit? After going off into some other directions, Rich finally stated that this "does not actually affect the organization's coffers". I could not penetrate his mumbling when asked for the dollar amount of the damages requsted; he either did not know, or did not want to say. Steve Guest said the total (for all defendants) is $86,000. Rich added that he "has not heard anything from Governance." So I asked him if he would waive his right of confidentiality so we could all hear the complaint. (Which raised objections from the defendants: on advice of legal counsel they _cannot_ discuss the matter. Fine, but would Rich waive confidentiality?) "Yes, if what was revealed was in context. I've asked that many times." [Okay, more on this later!] (Someone else asked all of the candidates if the prospect of such a suit would deter them. Responses were somewhat various, but none felt inclined to withdraw.) At the end, when Mel was trying to wrap things up, Rich said that the issue is "... how do you solve a problem"? And then: "I didn't raise the issue, so don't be shoving it down--." At some point (I didn't note where in my notes) Rich's process server (yes, that is still going on!) was walking around yelling something, but she was even more incoherent than Rich, so I won't even hazard a guess what that was all about. I could not catch everything, partly because I was trying to be very accurate with what I did catch. If anyone can augment this, let's hear it. ------ After so much excitement, I just cannot restrain from editorial comment. First, Mel deserves an accolade for doing a very credible job of managing the discussion in very trying circumstances. Second, when Rich says his suit "does not actually affect the organization's coffers": Put your boots on, folks! By the Articles of Incorporation SCN is required to indemnify the Board members for all costs incurred. (It's amazing that a topic taking up one-third of the bulk of the Articles should be so completely missed by someone so sensitive to his own transgressed rights and nuances of the by-laws unknown to others.) Third, I think Rich did get one thing right: The issue is, indeed, about "how do you solve a problem". It's too bad he's going the wrong direction. === JJ ================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Thu Feb 24 02:03:46 2000 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 02:03:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Put up or shut up. Message-ID: Okay, Rich, put up or shut up. You have been demanding more "openness" in the affairs of SCN for years. But now that your complaints of misfeasance are an affair your defamation suit prevents any public discussion of the matter. So are you for open discussions? Or not? More particularly, will you unqualifiedly WAIVE ANY RIGHT OF CONFIDENTIALITY so that the other parties in this matter can also join the discussion without fear of reprisal? At the meeting you said "Yes", but only "in context". Well, that's what we all want: the whole context of your complaint. So is it "yes", without qualification or reservation, or do you eat those bellicose words of yesteryear? === JJ ================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at saltmine.com Thu Feb 24 08:21:04 2000 From: jmabel at saltmine.com (Joe Mabel) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 08:21:04 -0800 Subject: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... Message-ID: <01BF7EA0.1817E6F0.jmabel@saltmine.com> Then, not to put to fine a point on it, Andrew and I are entirely correct to say that the SCN board has made suc a decision. If they are now considering reversing it, all to the good, but I don't think I'm at all "mistaken" in what I said. JM -----Original Message----- From: Rod Clark [SMTP:bb615 at scn.org] Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 11:38 PM To: AH Cc: Gianni Truzzi; scn at scn.org Subject: Re: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... Andrew Higgins wrote: > 2c Joe Mabel wrote: > 2c > If SCN's decision not to fundraise from corporations and to focus on a > 2c > volunteer > 2c > staff leads directly to this sort of consequence, I think this consequence > 2c > calls that decision into question. > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Gianni Truzzi wrote: > 2c Allow me to correct this mistaken belief. The Board of SCNA has NOT made > 2c any such decision. In fact, we expect to begin soliciting corporate and > 2c foundation funding rather vigorously in the coming months. However, that > 2c kind of fundraising effort has taken a back seat to other efforts for > 2c which it would be prerequisite. It's simply been a matter of allocating > > This "mistaken" belief was first espoused by a member of the Board, and > made to sound like a policy decision. > > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/msg00022.html > > Perhaps if we had published minutes it could be made more clear how this > confusion arose... Andrew, There's never been any confusion that (until the very recent City education grant) almost all of SCN's revenues have come from small personal contributions to CPSR and then to SCNA, and from small contributions by users for new accounts. The City grant was a big departure for SCN, but still we don't depend on it for providing core services. Those still come from the sum of all the small personal contributions. This is not accidental, and CPSR set it up that way for a reason. That reason was to avoid any possibility of anything other than a competely free and independent viewpoint that would take into account only the interests of the membership and not of any partner organizations, government agencies, underwriting businesses or any other entities at all. There is a proposal for SCN, called SCN II, that Gianni drafted recently and that he mentioned during the Annual Meeting, that would add greatly to the range of possible funding sources. In the process, it would make membership contributions relatively much less important because they could not reasonably be expected to rise to meet the funding levels necessary to provide greatly improved services to underserved consituencies and otherwise greatly increase SCN's activities. The SCN II proposal has been circulated in draft form and I hope that you'll soon have a chance to study and comment on it. Since this is an important new initiative, we all should be interested in shaping it to provide the best chance for SCN to grow and at the same time to keep a stable, dependable funding base and keep its independence. I believe the SCN II proposal can adequately addresses these concerns, and also believe that everyone in the Association who is concerned should have the chance to contribute something to this discusion as we go forward. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Thu Feb 24 07:59:48 2000 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 07:59:48 -0800 Subject: SCN: Filtering Message-ID: <200002241641.IAA12091@scn.org> x-no-archive: yes ========================= Voters Defeat Measure on Filters at Library by Keith Bradsher Holland, MI (NY Times)---Voting on the nation's first ballot measure to shackle the Internet on library computers and keep children from being exposed to pornography, the people of this deeply conservative town have chosen not to force a public library to filter computer access to the Web. Conservatives had labeled the showdown as the "Lexington and Concord" of the struggle over American libraries' Internet policies, and Christian conservative groups outspent free-speech advocates by 14 to 1. But residents voted 55 percent to 45 percent against the proposal, which would have cut off municipal financing for the library here unless it blocked access from its computers to sites containing "obscene, sexually explicit or other material harmful to minors." The referendum was on the same ballot as the statewide Republican primary on Tuesday, and helped increase turnout to 41 percent of registered voters here, more than double the usual level in a primary. The vote here in southwestern Michigan, in what is sometimes known as Michigan's Bible Belt, comes at a time of mounting pressure on public libraries across the country to prevent patrons, particularly minors, from visiting Web sites featuring pornography and other material that many conservatives find objectionable. The American Library Association estimates that 15 percent of the nation's public libraries have already installed filtering software to prevent patrons from visiting various kinds of sites, especially pornographic ones. Proponents of filtering say that children could suffer permanent emotional scars if they stumble across an indecent site, even while supervised. "The librarians can't move fast enough to prevent that image from entering the child's mind and staying there forever," said Gary Glenn, the president of the American Family Association of Michigan, which sponsored the measure. Judith Krug, the director of the office for intellectual freedom at the American Library Association, said that psychological studies had shown that children were not so easily affected by sexual imagery. The association contends that Internet filters are a good tool for home computers but violate the First Amendment when they are used in libraries. Critics contend that filtering software can also block access even to some educational sites, and may create a false sense of security among parents and library administrators, because the software can sometimes be circumvented. Some voters here had an additional concern: children of families not affluent enough to afford home computers might suffer academically. "I really don't think it's a good idea because it's a disadvantage to the poor," said Mary Hunt, a 57-year-old homemaker who said as she left the polls at Holland's Civic Center on Tuesday evening that she had voted against the measure. Identifying herself as African-American and Native American, Ms. Hunt said that if the measure had passed, it would have been particularly harmful to this city's growing minority community. But sentiment was very different outside a polling place at one of this city's four Christian schools. Chris Ransom, a 28-year-old manager at a metal scrap recycling company, said that he had not connected his family's home computer to the Internet because of worries that his 11-year-old son, Justin, and 9-year-old daughter, Jessica, might see something inappropriate. He said he had cautioned both children about using the Internet at their friends' homes or at the library. His wife, Cyndi, who sat next to him in the family minivan after they had both voted for the ballot proposal, added that, "We warn them that you can get out there and you never know when you're going to get into" inappropriate sites. Holland, a city of 32,000, is not alone in wrestling with Internet issues here. Nearby Georgetown Township, which has 50,000 people, has already installed filtering software on all computers in its public library, in defiance of a state law requiring that public libraries with Internet access have at least one computer without filtering software. Another city nearby, Hudsonville, turned off all Internet access from computers at its libraries here on Dec. 9, for fear of lawsuits by conservatives if filters are not installed and by First Amendment advocates if filters are installed. The vote against the Holland proposal was 4,379 to 3,626. The public library in Holland is a very large and beautiful building of limestone and glass that even features a cafe in the basement that serves cappuccino and omelettes. While the library's board has rejected Internet filters, the staff closely supervises use of the Internet. Computers in the children's area are not connected to the Web at all. Seven computers in the adult section with Web connections are on desks arranged in the shape of a horseshoe, and Karen Goorhous, the library's computer trainer, sits at the base of the horseshoe, where she can see what people are viewing. Computers with Internet access do not have drives for diskettes, to prevent users from downloading information, and files can be printed from the Internet only using a printer behind the reference librarians' desk. Ms. Goorhous said that only once had she found someone, an adult man, viewing clearly pornographic material, and she had told him to stop. But she said that some residents had also complained when other patrons used the Internet to visit sites that were not necessarily pornographic, like one that featured a photograph of Britney Spears, the teen-age pop singer. "Her navel was showing," Ms. Goorhous said. John R. Meengs, the president of the library's board, said that there had been no complaints that the library's existing oversight of Internet use might already be too restrictive. The ballot initiative here was led by Irvin Bos, a 59-year-old builder and manager of apartment buildings who said he had dedicated himself to fighting pornography because of an incident that occurred when he was 12 years old. He found a sexually explicit book by the roadside then and read it over and over again in the family's barn, Mr. Bos said in an interview today. When lightning struck the barn six months later, burning it down and killing the family's prize bull and best cow, Mr. Bos felt responsible. "I just knew I had caused that barn to burn down," Mr. Bos said. His ballot drive was bankrolled by the American Family Association. Mr. Glenn said that he hoped to discuss the issue with the library board. If filtering software is not installed -- and there is little sign that the board is changing its position -- the association will try again on the November ballot, he said. Copyright 2000 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Thu Feb 24 09:12:17 2000 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:12:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... Message-ID: <200002241712.JAA20761@scn.org> Moments after I had resolved NOT to muddy this conversation with any of my comments I ran across a comment that *needed* a response. Rod's comments (below) that CPSR set up SCN in such a way that we wouldn't get substantial corporate, foundation, or govenment support doesn't square with my recollections. One of the main reasons that we didn't get any support was that we didn't ASK. I can remember only one previous time when we submitted a grant proposal (to the Bullitt Foundation to help environmental groups). The main reason (in my recollection) we didn't seek grants is that seeking grants is hard work and we didn't seem to be able to find the time. I don't think it was ever an explicit POLICY decision that forbade making proposals. I am in favor of developing innovative community technology projects and finding funds for them. What I think we need to resist is reliance on one or two resources for all of our revenues, fees for services, and (especially?) advertising. -- Doug PS. Just in case anybody finds it useful I'll mention my article (now four years old) on how to kill community networks... http://www.scn.org/ip/commnet/kill-commnets.html. > Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:37:35 -0800 (PST) > From: Rod Clark > To: AH > cc: Gianni Truzzi , scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... > > Andrew Higgins wrote: > > 2� Joe Mabel wrote: > > 2� > If SCN's decision not to fundraise from corporations and to focus on a > > 2� > volunteer > > 2� > staff leads directly to this sort of consequence, I think this consequence > > 2� > calls that decision into question. > > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Gianni Truzzi wrote: > > 2� Allow me to correct this mistaken belief. The Board of SCNA has NOT made > > 2� any such decision. In fact, we expect to begin soliciting corporate and > > 2� foundation funding rather vigorously in the coming months. However, that > > 2� kind of fundraising effort has taken a back seat to other efforts for > > 2� which it would be prerequisite. It's simply been a matter of allocating > > > > This "mistaken" belief was first espoused by a member of the Board, and > > made to sound like a policy decision. > > > > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/msg00022.html > > > > Perhaps if we had published minutes it could be made more clear how this > > confusion arose... > > Andrew, > > There's never been any confusion that (until the very recent > City education grant) almost all of SCN's revenues have come > from small personal contributions to CPSR and then to SCNA, and > from small contributions by users for new accounts. > > The City grant was a big departure for SCN, but still we > don't depend on it for providing core services. Those still come > from the sum of all the small personal contributions. > > This is not accidental, and CPSR set it up that way for a > reason. That reason was to avoid any possibility of anything > other than a competely free and independent viewpoint that would > take into account only the interests of the membership and not > of any partner organizations, government agencies, underwriting > businesses or any other entities at all. > > There is a proposal for SCN, called SCN II, that Gianni > drafted recently and that he mentioned during the Annual > Meeting, that would add greatly to the range of possible funding > sources. In the process, it would make membership contributions > relatively much less important because they could not reasonably > be expected to rise to meet the funding levels necessary to > provide greatly improved services to underserved consituencies > and otherwise greatly increase SCN's activities. > > The SCN II proposal has been circulated in draft form and I > hope that you'll soon have a chance to study and comment on it. > Since this is an important new initiative, we all should be > interested in shaping it to provide the best chance for SCN to > grow and at the same time to keep a stable, dependable funding > base and keep its independence. I believe the SCN II proposal > can adequately addresses these concerns, and also believe that > everyone in the Association who is concerned should have the > chance to contribute something to this discusion as we go > forward. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Thu Feb 24 09:36:07 2000 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:36:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Put up or shut up. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, J. Johnson wrote: It strikes me as bizarre that Rich is running for a position on the Board that he is suing. Running for the board implies that you have an interest in working within the organization for its benefit and to improve it and lobby to correct any flaws you think it has. Filing a lawsuit against the board, especially a monetary one, is taking a sledgehammer to the organization and potentially wrecking it. So, the question I would have for Rich is - what do you want? An imperfect SCN that functions and meets some, if not all needs of its members and users, and has the potential for improvement and correcting problems, or no SCN at all? You can't have it both ways! Ken Applegate > > === JJ ================================================================= > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From femme2 at scn.org Thu Feb 24 10:27:26 2000 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:27:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Anti-union boss searches workers' home computers with court's okay (fwd) Message-ID: FYI -- sorry if this is common knowledge already. I thought JJ's scenario about seizure of SCN computers was a little far-fetched, but as Sarah says, the following is alarming. LP ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:38:08 EST From: SsarahT at aol.com To: barman at ctc.edu Subject: Anti-union boss searches workers' home computers with court's okay Dear Sisters & Brothers in Solidarity, Below is an alarming posting, describing a court-authorized Northwest Airlines search of home computers of rank&file Teamster flight attendants, as well as the home and office computers of union officials. A settlement has halted the search of the union officials' property, but the rank&file remain vulnerable. Thank goodness that Ralph Nader's Public Citizen Litigation Group is representing them. It's interesting how a cyberlaw attorney in the article classifies the workers' speech as "business" rather than "political." Historically courts have protected political speech more than other types of speech. The article below describes how courts increasingly have been willing to help companies crack down on r&f online discussions, bad-mouthing companies or their management. Chilling. -- cheers & solidarity, Sarah Luthens __ From: http://www.startribune.com/viewers/qview/cgi/qview.cgi?template=biz_a&slug=pri v0208 �Court authorizes search of Northwest employees' home computers� Eric Wieffering and Tony Kennedy Star Tribune Tuesday, February 8, 2000 Northwest Airlines last week began court-authorized searches of the home computers of between 10 and 20 flight attendants, looking for private e-mail and other evidence that the employees helpedto organize a sickout at the airline over the New Year's holiday. The search has since been suspended pending a temporary settlement of the airline's lawsuit against Teamsters Local 2000, the union representing 11,000 flight attendants. But privacy advocates and attorneys not involved with the case say Northwest's action may embolden other companies to more aggressively monitor what employees say and do online from their home computers. "If Northwest succeeds in gaining access to the hard drives of the home computers of its employees, it will certainly put a chill on the uses employees everywhere make of their home computers," said Beth Givens, director of the Privacy Rights Clearinghouse in San Diego. Northwest's action comes at a time when bills to protect individual privacy have been introduced at the state and national level. In addition, an increasing number of employees are learning, to their dismay, that companies have the right to monitor their online activities at work. Last month, for example, the New York Times fired 23 employees for sharing bawdy e-mail messages. Northwest defended the search, noting that a federal court had authorized it. "In the age we live in, the normal course of discovery includes taking depositions, producing documents and these days more than ever looking into the content of computers," said Jon Austin, a spokesman for Northwest. "So many documents and communications these days are purely electronic in nature," Austin said. But companies have rarely sought to search the home computers of their employees. In the past, most such searches usually have been limited to cases involving workers who've been accused of stealing company files, passing on trade secrets to competitors or using insider information to profit on the trading of company stock. Nor is all speech on the Internet protected by the First Amendment. Increasingly, courts have been willing to help companies crack down on so-called "cybersmearing" -- bad-mouthing companies or their management online. "Business speech is not subject to the same protections as political speech," said John Roberts, a Minneapolis attorney who specializes in cyberlaw. "You can't say whatever you want about a company." The get-tough strategy is a new one for Northwest, too. In the spring of 1998, the company's mechanics, frustrated by the pace of contract negotiations, began an unauthorized work slowdown that forced flight delays and hundreds of cancellations. Union leaders disclaimed any knowledge or authorization of the campaign, which employees advocated on Web sites and message boards. Last month, however, Northwest sued the flight attendants union and some of its members, alleging they had violated federal labor laws by orchestrating a sickout. Judge Frank agreed with Northwest and issued a temporary restraining order that prohibited the union from advocating any work disruptions. New legal ground Still, the Northwest case appears to break new ground because, in addition to searching the office computers of union officials, Northwest got permission to search their home computers and the home computers of several rank-and-file employees, including Kevin Griffin and Ted Reeve. The temporary settlement in the suit does not apply to Griffin and Reeve. The judge agreed to put the suit on hold as it pertains to the union and 19 individuals who are represented by the union's attorneys. But Griffin and Reeve, who are not represented by union attorneys because they are not union officers, are still subject to the company's discovery efforts and to a possible injunction against them. "This kind of precedent could have a very chilling effect on the exercise of speech rights, and could set a very bad precedent for privacy," said Jerry Berman, executive director for the Center for Democracy and Technology, a leading privacy rights organization based in Washington, D.C. Like most flight attendants, Griffin and Reeve do not use a computer at work. But they do operate online message boards where flight attendants have vented their frustration toward the company and the union leadership. Griffin's message board, >From material posted by Steve: >Conservatives had labeled the showdown as the "Lexington and >Concord" of the struggle over American libraries' Internet policies, >and Christian conservative groups outspent free-speech advocates >by 14 to 1. But residents voted 55 percent to 45 percent against the >proposal, [...] > >The ballot initiative here was led by Irvin Bos, a 59-year-old builder >and manager of apartment buildings who said he had dedicated >himself to fighting pornography because of an incident that occurred >when he was 12 years old. He found a sexually explicit book by the >roadside then and read it over and over again in the family's barn, >Mr. Bos said in an interview today. When lightning struck the barn >six months later, burning it down and killing the family's prize bull >and best cow, Mr. Bos felt responsible. > >"I just knew I had caused that barn to burn down," Mr. Bos said. ROTFLMAO!!! I'll bet he has to shave his hands 3 times a day! Sounds like things kinda got out-of-hand, so to speak. Must've been quite a juggling act just before the flames started to spread :) :) And he's probably been pining for the book ever since! And it also sounds quite frankly like he started *believing* the bullshit story he told his parents, and it appears he's gotten incredible mileage out of it. Astonishing, the power of iterated autosuggestion! Query: does the mathematical theory of Iterated Function Systems have analogous applications in psychology? just a speculative thought (or brainfart). In a certain sense, I guess it's making lemonade out of a lemon: turning a delusion or an otherwise disabling obsession into an asset. Is that one of the ways religions get started? Another way of looking at it is that poor Mr. Bos got infected by an incurable rogue meme that makes him do things he wouldn't ordinarily do, as an aid in its reproduction, just the way certain fungi can invade the brains of ants, who then alter their behavior in ways that aid the reproductive cycle of the fungus. In the latter case, the normally ground-hugging ants crawl to the tops of grass-leaves, where they can be more easily seen by their predators and eaten, whereupon the next stage in the life-cycle of the fungus commences. Gives a new meaning to "food for thought", doesn't it? or is that "thought as food"? :) :) --kurt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From scoth at scn.org Thu Feb 24 12:37:05 2000 From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on SCN.org) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:37:05 -0800 Subject: SCN: Re: Anti-union boss searches workers' home computers with court's okay (fwd) References: Message-ID: <00a201bf7f06$ebde77e0$078cc5ce@thurman.com> Howdy, As far as the current law goes, searching a computer is largely equivalent to searching a file cabinet. There may be a great deal of content that is not relevant to the case, and that is left alone. Of course, in the case of copying the contents of a hard drive, they have made copies of the entire virtual file cabinet, including non-relevant documents. While Earnst and Young was chosen by Northwest, they are acting under the court's orders, and are thus agents of the court, even if on behalf of Northwest. They must report to the court, not Northwest. I don't know that they cannot tell Northwest what they find, but I do know they'll have to report to the court with any potentially relevant evidence. There's a fair amount of precedence in place now regarding the seizure and search of computers, and this case appears to fall within those boundaries. The defendants are alleged to have been proposing illegal activities against Northwest (the sick-out, which is against federal labor laws in this case). If they actually made specific plans for a sick-out they may be subject to criminal prosecution for conspiracy to commit a crime. This is not to say we don't need legislation to cover privacy issues. Many businesses, especially large corporations, have been known to bully employees in ways are that are unfair and unethical, making a good case for making those "ways" illegal. (Yes, I know many corporations get away with illegal acts as well; so do lots of folks.) We are a democracy, and we can decide whether these things should be protected. Still, computer law is not isolated in legal code, so committing a crime with a company computer is the same as committing a crime with a company car. Committing a crime with a private computer is still a crime. Directing that crime (or the threat of a crime) against an individual or company makes you civilly liable (provided they can prove damage). The question here is a matter of speech, too, as regards business speech or political speech. Is speech with regards to work, when made outside of work, subject to free speech protections? If a person says "we ought to have a sick-out", does that make them subject to disciplinary action? It's important to note what a person says. Encouraging a sick-out is one thing, actually planning one is another. One might get you fired for promoting a poor work environment (without even touching what Northwest does to poison its own work environs). The other is a crime. I am personally in favor of increased protection with regards to searches and seizures, including specific guidelines and penalties, with particular respect to privacy. People need to know that while they may be required to hand over their personal computers and other personal affects (documents, items, and so on) in a civil case their rights are centrally protected by the court. In the case of the E&Y searches, everything suspected relevant should be passed directly to the court, who will then rule on the relevance of the item in question, without letting either side see what's being reviewed. Non-relevant evidence should be destroyed and assurance of that should be given to the court as part of the record. Agents acting on the court's behalf, like E&Y in this case, should be bonded (I'm sure E&Y is in any case). We also need to make sure we have clear boundaries for free, general speech, and speech that is related to meaningful associations. You _can_ be fired for a bad attitude (if your contract allows it), and that may be evidence of such an attitude. As to using the court to discover evidence of that, well... Don't panic, yet. The sheriff's not going to come get your PC at the drop of a hat. Courts have to be convinced that evidence may exist, and the convincing has to be done with supporting evidence. The question in that case really comes to whether we trust the courts to protect the rights of all the parties. Scot -- Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) | Systems Administrator, Thurman Ind, Bothell, WA North Bend, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lorraine Pozzi" To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 10:27 AM Subject: SCN: Anti-union boss searches workers' home computers with court's okay (fwd) > > FYI -- sorry if this is common knowledge already. I thought JJ's > scenario about seizure of SCN computers was a little far-fetched, ... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org Thu Feb 24 13:11:48 2000 From: kurt at grogatch.seaslug.org (Kurt Cockrum) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:11:48 -0800 Subject: SCN: Meeting: "It's not a dumb lawsuit." Message-ID: <200002242111.NAA10174@grogatch.seaslug.org> jj reported: >The next question was from Kurt: what is the positive outcome >[to SCN] to be had from this suit? After going off into some >other directions, Rich finally stated that this "does not >actually affect the organization's coffers". It was clear that there wasn't going to be much in the way of positive outcome for SCN in this. What I was asking was how Rich saw a positive outcome for himself in this, and how that could weigh against a large collection of outcomes extremely adverse to Rich. I was hoping to get some insight as to Rich's motivations. In all of this I have not been able to detect any trace of evil or wrongdoing in Rich, and this keeps me from dropping a bomb on him, so to speak. I can't yet think of him as not-a-friend, although I admit he's getting close to the boundary if I were to let my emotions get the better of me (no danger of that, really). In fact I hope things can be repaired, but it's going to have to require smarts on the parts of *both* Rich and the SCN Board. Just one group having smarts won't do. I do think Rich is being foolish and wrongheaded, though. And he told me after the meeting he was *stuck* and couldn't think of any other way to do it but sue. Well, OK, that's honest, and just maybe provides the nucleus that a solution can crystallize around. What do you do with somebody who's stuck? You try to help them. So somehow Rich has to be convinced that there exist better solutions to the problems between him and the board than litigating a tort-in-a-court (homage to Dr. Seuss :) or other hardline solutions. I can't dump this all on Rich, though. It's seemed to me there have plenty of times where the Board has had to get a get a whack on the head to get *its* attention. Delve into the archives of this list if you don't believe me. And Rich's suit qualifies as a pretty big whack on the head! And 86'ing him from the e-mail training slot frankly was a colossal blunder that the Board ought to cop to, so it can get about the business of fixing it. And the realm, e-mail training, is one where there ought to be *plenty* of room for a wide variety of philosophies and theories and experiments, and that battles over which way (as with the schools, for example) is best are stupid and counterproductive. Where possible, multiple experiments should be running, a la Charlie Barb's e-mail experiments that run concurrently with the conventional training methods. IMO what should've been done at the cusp of the Rich/BOD conflict is for there to fork off another e-mail training experiment, and that's something that ought to still be possible to pick up, if it's worth doing at all. (no, I don't want to hear a flood of objections why that can't be done; I won't get sucked into that "why-don't-you/yes-but" game). That's the best use of the system, IMO. Let a hundred flowers bloom. So this is a live and functional test of the quality of the board, too. A smashing-type victory, where one adversary crushes the other, would probably prove very unsatisfactory in the long run, and would demonstrate the board's unfitness, hopefully to be remedied at the next election. --kurt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From femme2 at scn.org Thu Feb 24 13:25:09 2000 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:25:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Meeting: "It's not a dumb lawsuit." In-Reply-To: <200002242111.NAA10174@grogatch.seaslug.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, Kurt Cockrum wrote: > ... In fact I hope things can be > repaired, but it's going to have to require smarts on the parts of *both* > Rich and the SCN Board. Just one group having smarts won't do. Oh, Kurt, you optimist you! Seriously, I think you have summed up the problem -- and the potential solution -- very well. I've served on several boards -- volunteers do get annoyed, burned out, find more exciting opportunities to volunteer -- but I have never been on a board where they didn't just walk away. When you have James and Rich, both very dedicated volunteers, turning a flamethrower on the organization as they pass through the exit door -- well, I think there is a message here. We tried an unbiased arbitrator when the fundraising committee went through meltdown (though at least nobody sued) and it was not very successful (or maybe given that last statement, it was!). I don't think that things will be worked out without a third party -- whether that be a judge (and probably major legal expense en route) or someone in the conflict resolution biz. What was the name of the guy who worked for Group Health? He has quite a bit of knowledge of the organization, but is not a party to either side of the dispute. As a two-year board member (was it ONLY two years -- seemed like an eternity) I suggested several times that we have exit interviews when volunteers turned in their resignations -- just to have data on what we were doing that was sending them away. Still seems like a good idea. Lorraine femme2 at scn.org > > I do think Rich is being foolish and wrongheaded, though. And he told > me after the meeting he was *stuck* and couldn't think of any other way > to do it but sue. Well, OK, that's honest, and just maybe provides the > nucleus that a solution can crystallize around. What do you do with > somebody who's stuck? You try to help them. > > So somehow Rich has to be convinced that there exist better solutions to > the problems between him and the board than litigating a tort-in-a-court > (homage to Dr. Seuss :) or other hardline solutions. > > I can't dump this all on Rich, though. It's seemed to me there have > plenty of times where the Board has had to get a get a whack on the > head to get *its* attention. Delve into the archives of this list if you > don't believe me. And Rich's suit qualifies as a pretty big whack on > the head! And 86'ing him from the e-mail training slot frankly was a > colossal blunder that the Board ought to cop to, so it can get about > the business of fixing it. > > And the realm, e-mail training, is one where there ought to be *plenty* > of room for a wide variety of philosophies and theories and experiments, > and that battles over which way (as with the schools, for example) > is best are stupid and counterproductive. Where possible, multiple > experiments should be running, a la Charlie Barb's e-mail experiments > that run concurrently with the conventional training methods. > > IMO what should've been done at the cusp of the Rich/BOD conflict is for > there to fork off another e-mail training experiment, and that's something > that ought to still be possible to pick up, if it's worth doing at all. > (no, I don't want to hear a flood of objections why that can't be done; > I won't get sucked into that "why-don't-you/yes-but" game). > > That's the best use of the system, IMO. Let a hundred flowers bloom. > > So this is a live and functional test of the quality of the board, too. > A smashing-type victory, where one adversary crushes the > other, would probably prove very unsatisfactory in the long run, and would > demonstrate the board's unfitness, hopefully to be remedied at the next > election. > --kurt > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Thu Feb 24 14:35:34 2000 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:35:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Funding sources, policy, future course of SCN Message-ID: > Rod's comments (below) that CPSR set up SCN in such a way that we > wouldn't get substantial corporate, foundation, or govenment > support doesn't square with my recollections. One of the main > reasons that we didn't get any support was that we didn't ASK. I > can remember only one previous time when we submitted a grant > proposal (to the Bullitt Foundation to help environmental groups). > The main reason (in my recollection) we didn't seek grants is that > seeking grants is hard work and we didn't seem to be able to find > the time. I don't think it was ever an explicit POLICY decision > that forbade making proposals. Doug, I wasn't there for the very early history of it, so I'll defer to your memories of that. But when I was a volunteer when CPSR ran SCN, in late '95 and the first half of '96, there was always a good deal of debate about issues like this, and never a clear agreement that I could see. And I think that in some important sense, policy is what actually happens over a course of years. This next is off on a tangent I suppose, bacause it's different from any question about grants. But I do remember that, in response to a question from a dissatisfied volunteer, you stood at a general meeting and said that you were in favor of SCN being friendlier to businesses in its content and in inviting more of their participation in the project. I'm sure I don't remember your views exactly, but I think they were mostly a general expression that SCN should more prominently include local small businessses and their economic life in the city. I also remember that while there was much sentiment in support of this as a fine concept, most of the volunteers there did not agree that actively advancing SCN along this course at that time was a good idea in practice. That particular discussion sticks in my mind because Doug Tooley had raised it as an acrimonious issue at the time, and because I was on the receiving end of a lot of the acrimony. This was also a time when people were fighting the CDA. If someone would have said then, "Oh, heck. I think we should pursue alliances with King County and some foundations and banks and institutions and seek major funding from them, and make that a lot more important than our membership revenues, and take them up on their generous offers to send us some experienced executives to advise us how to run things, and just see what happens!" that person might have met a cool welcome among the majority of SCN volunteers, even though that was and is a popular and workable model for other community networks. > I am in favor of developing innovative community technology > projects and finding funds for them. What I think we need to resist is reliance on one or two resources for all of our revenues, fees for services, and (especially?) advertising. That's a responsible position, and I support it. I think SCN now has the solidity and experience, and the confidence in its ability to survive intact, to proceed safely and successfully with this on its own terms, that it did not have five years ago. Rod * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From janossz at scn.org Thu Feb 24 14:44:14 2000 From: janossz at scn.org (Janos Szablya) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:44:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Funding sources, policy, future course of SCN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rod, Let's get on thing straight. CPRS was an umbrella they did not run SCN Janos This email and any attachment contain information which is private and confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you are not an addressee, you are not authorized to read, copy or use this email or any attachment. If you have received this email in error, please destroy it and notify the sender by return email. On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, Rod Clark wrote: > > Rod's comments (below) that CPSR set up SCN in such a way that we > > wouldn't get substantial corporate, foundation, or govenment > > support doesn't square with my recollections. One of the main > > reasons that we didn't get any support was that we didn't ASK. I > > can remember only one previous time when we submitted a grant > > proposal (to the Bullitt Foundation to help environmental groups). > > The main reason (in my recollection) we didn't seek grants is that > > seeking grants is hard work and we didn't seem to be able to find > > the time. I don't think it was ever an explicit POLICY decision > > that forbade making proposals. > > Doug, > > I wasn't there for the very early history of it, so I'll > defer to your memories of that. But when I was a volunteer when > CPSR ran SCN, in late '95 and the first half of '96, there was > always a good deal of debate about issues like this, and never a > clear agreement that I could see. And I think that in some > important sense, policy is what actually happens over a course > of years. > > This next is off on a tangent I suppose, bacause it's > different from any question about grants. But I do remember > that, in response to a question from a dissatisfied volunteer, > you stood at a general meeting and said that you were in favor > of SCN being friendlier to businesses in its content and in > inviting more of their participation in the project. I'm sure I > don't remember your views exactly, but I think they were mostly > a general expression that SCN should more prominently include > local small businessses and their economic life in the city. > > I also remember that while there was much sentiment in > support of this as a fine concept, most of the volunteers there > did not agree that actively advancing SCN along this course at > that time was a good idea in practice. That particular > discussion sticks in my mind because Doug Tooley had raised it > as an acrimonious issue at the time, and because I was on the > receiving end of a lot of the acrimony. > > This was also a time when people were fighting the CDA. If > someone would have said then, "Oh, heck. I think we should > pursue alliances with King County and some foundations and banks > and institutions and seek major funding from them, and make that > a lot more important than our membership revenues, and take them > up on their generous offers to send us some experienced > executives to advise us how to run things, and just see what > happens!" that person might have met a cool welcome among the > majority of SCN volunteers, even though that was and is a > popular and workable model for other community networks. > > > I am in favor of developing innovative community technology > > projects and finding funds for them. What I think we need to > resist is reliance on one or two resources for all of our > revenues, fees for services, and (especially?) advertising. > > That's a responsible position, and I support it. I think SCN > now has the solidity and experience, and the confidence in its > ability to survive intact, to proceed safely and successfully > with this on its own terms, that it did not have five years ago. > > Rod > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ethan.scarl at boeing.com Thu Feb 24 15:06:42 2000 From: ethan.scarl at boeing.com (Ethan Scarl) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:06:42 -0600 Subject: SCN: UW-SLIS Colloquium / 3-2-2000 / Ann P. Bishop Message-ID: <200002242306.RAA04428@hsvaic.hv.boeing.com> ------- Start of forwarded message ------- From: Maija Haefer [mailto:maijah at u.washington.edu] Please post or distribute - ------------------------------------------------------------------ UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON Seattle, Washington 98195 School of Library & Information Science Box 352930; Tel.:(206) 543-1794 COLLOQUIUM SPEAKER: Ann P. Bishop, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign TITLE: Socially Grounded Design of Information Systems: An Example from Community Health DATE: Thursday, March 2, 2000 TIME: 3:30 pm PLACE: Allen Auditorium Map available from: http://www.washington.edu/home/maps/northcentral.html HOST: Efthimis N. Efthimiadis, SLIS, UW ABSTRACT: Socially grounded system design is based on four simple principles. First, it includes an assessment of the systems social consequences, especially for traditionally marginalized groups. Second, it devotes close attention to social practices associated with system use. Third, it includes attention to social interactions and relationships related to system use. And finally, it strives to maximize the participation of a broad spectrum of potential users in all stages of the system's lifecycle, from design and testing through implementation and evaluation. My current Institute for Museum and Library Services (IMLS) project involves working with members of SisterNet, a local grassroots group, to develop web-based information services that address the health concerns of African American women in local community. As part of this project (for more information, see the project website at http://www.prairienet.org/imls/), we are employing use scenarios to help us design a service that local women will find both usable and useful. Use scenarios are socially-grounded, empirically based descriptions of real information needs and practices that guide the design of a system and are employed further to judge its usability, measure use, and assess outcomes. They form a bridge between system developers and potential users, and between current and future practice. As described by John Carroll--a pioneer of the scenario approach to system design--use scenarios may be contrasted to other methods for studying use and users in that they provide concrete descriptions, focus on particular instances, are more open and informal, and aim at envisioned (as opposed to specified) outcomes. This presentation will report on our progress in employing use scenarios in the needs assessment and usabilty testing stages of our current IMLS project. ...... BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION: Ann Peterson Bishop is an Assistant Professor at the Graduate School of Library and Information Science at the University of Illinois. Her major interest lies in user-based approaches to the design and evaluation of information services. Ann teaches courses in community information systems, information needs and uses, knowledge organization and access, social informatics, and information policy. Her research focuses on socially-grounded research methods and the study of goals and outcomes associated with the use of information systems by disenfranchised groups. Ann is currently Principal Investigator for "Community-Based Creation of Networked Information Services: Developing Tools and Guidelines for Public Libraries," a two-year project sponsored by the U.S. Institute for Museum and Library Services. She also serves as Principal Investigator for the "Community Networking Initiative," a 2-yr. project--just winding down--that was funded for over $1 million by the Kellogg Foundation and the Telecommunications and Information Infrastructure Assistance Program (TIIAP) in the Dept. of Commerce. The research and evaluation component of this project involves studying community information needs and computing practices in low-income African American neighborhoods. Ann recently served as Co-Principal Investigator in charge of needs assessment and evaluation for the $4 million University of Illinois' NSF/ARPA/NASA Digital Libraries Initiative project (1994-98). Along with Greg Newby, Ann is a co-founder of Prairienet, the community network that serves East Central Illinois. She served on the national advisory panel for the U.S. Office of Technology Assessment's 1995 study of telecommunications technologies and Native Americans. ................ Recent Publications: Bishop, A.P. (In press). Socially grounded design and evaluation: The role of use scenarios. In Bishop, A.P., Buttenfield, B.P., & Van House, N. (Eds.). Digital library use: Social practice in design and evaluation. Cambridge: MIT Press. Mehra, B., Bishop, A. P., & Bazzell, I. (In press). The role of use scenarios in developing a community health information system. Bulletin of the American Society for Information Science. Bishop, A. P. (2000). Communities for the new century. Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy (JAAL), 45 (5). Contractor, N., & Bishop, A. P. (2000). Reconfiguring community networks: The case of PrairieKNOW. In Ishida, T. (Ed.). Digital cities: Experiences, technologies and future perspectives. Munich: Springer. Bishop, A. P., Tidline, T., Shoemaker, S., & Salela, P. (1999). Public libraries and networked information services in low-income communities. Libraries & Information Science Research, 21 (3), 361-390. Bishop, A. P., Shoemaker, S., Tidline, T. J., and Salela, P. (1999). Information exchange in low income neighborhoods: Implications for community networking. In Woods, L. (Ed.). Knowledge: Creation, Organization and Use. Proceedings of the 62nd Annual Meeting of the American Society for Information Science, Vol. 36 (pp. 443-449). Medford, NJ: Information Today. ......... NOTE: The lecture is free. - ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- End of forwarded message ------- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Thu Feb 24 16:31:24 2000 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:31:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Meeting: "It's not a dumb lawsuit." In-Reply-To: <200002242111.NAA10174@grogatch.seaslug.org> Message-ID: Ooops, sorry, Kurt. I wasn't certain just how you had meant your question, and my guessed interpolation ("[to scn]") was meant to have a question mark. Well, that's why we have public discussions, to fix up the little details. I, too, suspect Rich feels "stuck", but in regards of the suit he certainly isn't. He can retract it. It might be galling, he might have to give up some cherished griefs, even provide compensation, but he is the one driving it into the wall. As to feeling he had no other alternative, well, that's a personal problem. Kurt suggested "fork[ing] off another e-mail training experiment". Way back whenever (two years ago?) I suggested that. I had no problem, nor would now, if Rich wanted to set up the "Littleton Academy of Fine E-mail". But Rich didn't want that. He wanted to run the _SCN_ e-mail classes. He wanted to be leader, the respected authority figure in charge, but using the resources and results and reputation of others. Now the eight or so of us that had developed the course were willing to let him join us, but then he wanted to do it his way. He was absolutely sure of himself that his views on the matter, from his single and limited perspective, were superior to ours. Well, he was welcome to start his own Academy, but, no, he wanted to muscle in on our work. The underlying problem there was that you can't have two separate groups purporting to be the same group. Which gets back to another issue Kurt raised, the culpability here of the Board of Directors. The Board could have saved me, Jim Haskins, and themselves a whole lot of grief if they would have resolved, or provided a basis for resolving, who was authorised to speak for SCN, and what the ground rules are. But the Board has repeatedly failed to take any responsibility for that. Those of us trying to do things are expected to work things out between ourselves. Which is fine-- until there's a problem, and then everything collapses because it turns out there was no foundation, all the collegial, inter-personal working relationships having been built on sand. All of our castles crumble every time the tide comes in, and every time some arrogant kid drives by in his 4x4. Sure, Rich is out of hand. But it is not his fault that the Board does not provide solid footings. And if Rich wants to set up his own e-mail classes, and even call them "SCN E-mail class", and tell the library that he handles the e-mail classes--well, there would be problems, but if the Board fails to act the only alternative is "turf wars", fought by whatever means are efficacious. Which includes law suits. === JJ ================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From janossz at scn.org Thu Feb 24 20:37:20 2000 From: janossz at scn.org (Janos Szablya) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:37:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Meeting: "It's not a dumb lawsuit." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: jj I have just read your account of what happened at the last board meeting. A couple of simple questions... Can anyone else confirm that Rich said that Governace was not acting on his complaint? Rich will you comment? Is this really true? Janos This email and any attachment contain information which is private and confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you are not an addressee, you are not authorized to read, copy or use this email or any attachment. If you have received this email in error, please destroy it and notify the sender by return email. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From janossz at scn.org Thu Feb 24 20:43:08 2000 From: janossz at scn.org (Janos Szablya) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:43:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... In-Reply-To: <200002241712.JAA20761@scn.org> Message-ID: Doug you have a good memory... Janos On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, Doug Schuler wrote: > > Moments after I had resolved NOT to muddy this conversation with any of > my comments I ran across a comment that *needed* a response. > > Rod's comments (below) that CPSR set up SCN in such a way that we > wouldn't get substantial corporate, foundation, or govenment support > doesn't square with my recollections. One of the main reasons that we > didn't get any support was that we didn't ASK. I can remember only one > previous time when we submitted a grant proposal (to the Bullitt > Foundation to help environmental groups). The main reason (in my > recollection) we didn't seek grants is that seeking grants is hard work > and we didn't seem to be able to find the time. I don't think it was > ever an explicit POLICY decision that forbade making proposals. > > I am in favor of developing innovative community technology projects > and finding funds for them. What I think we need to resist is reliance > on one or two resources for all of our revenues, fees for services, and > (especially?) advertising. > > -- Doug > > PS. Just in case anybody finds it useful I'll mention my > article (now four years old) on how to kill community networks... > http://www.scn.org/ip/commnet/kill-commnets.html. > > > > > Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:37:35 -0800 (PST) > > From: Rod Clark > > To: AH > > cc: Gianni Truzzi , scn at scn.org > > Subject: Re: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... > > > > Andrew Higgins wrote: > > > 2� Joe Mabel wrote: > > > 2� > If SCN's decision not to fundraise from corporations and to focus on a > > > 2� > volunteer > > > 2� > staff leads directly to this sort of consequence, I think this consequence > > > 2� > calls that decision into question. > > > > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Gianni Truzzi wrote: > > > 2� Allow me to correct this mistaken belief. The Board of SCNA has NOT made > > > 2� any such decision. In fact, we expect to begin soliciting corporate and > > > 2� foundation funding rather vigorously in the coming months. However, that > > > 2� kind of fundraising effort has taken a back seat to other efforts for > > > 2� which it would be prerequisite. It's simply been a matter of allocating > > > > > > This "mistaken" belief was first espoused by a member of the Board, and > > > made to sound like a policy decision. > > > > > > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/msg00022.html > > > > > > Perhaps if we had published minutes it could be made more clear how this > > > confusion arose... > > > > Andrew, > > > > There's never been any confusion that (until the very recent > > City education grant) almost all of SCN's revenues have come > > from small personal contributions to CPSR and then to SCNA, and > > from small contributions by users for new accounts. > > > > The City grant was a big departure for SCN, but still we > > don't depend on it for providing core services. Those still come > > from the sum of all the small personal contributions. > > > > This is not accidental, and CPSR set it up that way for a > > reason. That reason was to avoid any possibility of anything > > other than a competely free and independent viewpoint that would > > take into account only the interests of the membership and not > > of any partner organizations, government agencies, underwriting > > businesses or any other entities at all. > > > > There is a proposal for SCN, called SCN II, that Gianni > > drafted recently and that he mentioned during the Annual > > Meeting, that would add greatly to the range of possible funding > > sources. In the process, it would make membership contributions > > relatively much less important because they could not reasonably > > be expected to rise to meet the funding levels necessary to > > provide greatly improved services to underserved consituencies > > and otherwise greatly increase SCN's activities. > > > > The SCN II proposal has been circulated in draft form and I > > hope that you'll soon have a chance to study and comment on it. > > Since this is an important new initiative, we all should be > > interested in shaping it to provide the best chance for SCN to > > grow and at the same time to keep a stable, dependable funding > > base and keep its independence. I believe the SCN II proposal > > can adequately addresses these concerns, and also believe that > > everyone in the Association who is concerned should have the > > chance to contribute something to this discusion as we go > > forward. > > > > Rod Clark > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Thu Feb 24 21:34:55 2000 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:34:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN Board Election Results Message-ID: The SCN message of the day had the results from last night's election: "The SCNA Annual Meeting and Election was held last night. The newly elected members of the Board of Directors are: Liz White, Tim McCormack & Joel Ware. Congratulations to them, and thank you to all the candidates and everyone who participated. **** Additional details about the election and meeting can be found at http://www.scn.org/scna. ****[my emphasis] Together we'relooking forward to a very productive year, and we'd welcome your help! Please email Melissa Guest at guests at scn.org for more information." If you go to the SCNA page, the only details of the meeting are a repeat of the above. I'm not sure we need to see the "gory details" of last night's meeting, but I *would* like to see an actual tally of the vote broken down by candidate and also total vote relative to total SCNA membership eligible to vote, and maybe a breakdown as to total votes at the meeting versus mailed in ballots. Hey, they do it for state and national elections, why not for SCNA? I for one would like to get a sense of how well our little slice of democracy is or isn't working. What do the SCNA bylaws state about making the results of elections known? Ken Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at aa.net Sat Feb 26 01:07:46 2000 From: sharma at aa.net (Sharma) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 01:07:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... In-Reply-To: <01BF7EA0.1817E6F0.jmabel@saltmine.com> Message-ID: I personally wrote a grant application when SCN was still a CPSR project and no one objected. We did not win the grant, but it was done and as far as I know, the only reason other grants have not been applied for is that no one or group wrote them. I have never heard of any policy about not applying for grants. There was a period of time when I was not assisting much, about a year, so I cannot speak about that, but it has not been mentioned in the last two years while I have been on the board. Many of the minutes that are available are on the webpages. Which ones are missing that might have the information you are looking for? I ran across some of the notes I took during the Coordinating Council days a few days ago, but they were way less than minutes and really not worth working on except perhaps as history. There certainly were early discussions about whether or not SCN should look for ONE sponsor - a corporation, university, the city, and so on - and we decided that it was very important to not put SCN in the position of ending up being really owned by anyone other than its members. The work done in the name of SCNA always depends on people to do it and in the absence of people to do it, follow up, keep bringing it to the fore, keep looking for resources and people, it does not happen. I know it is frustrating when some wanted change does not take place, or takes place very slowly, but that is the way the system works. The changes made in the last year to enable SCNA members via committees to determine what they want to do to improve services is major. We still need to recruit people with the skills to bring about those changes, and find ways to support current volunteers to either do the work they know how to do or increase their skill levels to that needed. Please do not take this as any sort of rejection but as I know nothing about what it would take to upgrade our system to provide the services wanted, and I simply do not have time to read through numerous posts discussing it, I would much prefer that these discussions not be sent to the board. Who could make the wanted changes? Is there an SCNA volunteer with the time and skill to do so? If so, what support do they need? If not, how could such a volunteer(s) be found? Where might they be found? Who will take the responsibility of finding/training the volunteers? Who will follow up to make certain the work is done? This needs to take place within the appropriate committee. If that committee is unable to do the needed work, then something will have to change, i.e. more volunteers, another committee, other resources, or ??? A volunteer organization does not accomplish tasks in the same way an individual or a private business does. It is much slower for one thing, and it has a different range of resources. One of our most important resources is mutual respect and good will. Sometimes frustration gets in the way of remembering that. As SCNA gets larger, and has a larger budget and possibly a staff, it will be a different organization and we need to be sure that if/as we go in that direction, we continue to create the best approximation we can of what we want. Cheers, -sharma On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, Joe Mabel wrote: > Then, not to put to fine a point on it, Andrew and I are entirely correct > to say that the SCN board has made suc a decision. If they are now > considering reversing it, all to the good, but I don't think I'm at all > "mistaken" in what I said. > JM > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rod Clark [SMTP:bb615 at scn.org] > Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 11:38 PM > To: AH > Cc: Gianni Truzzi; scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: SCN: Re: OPS: w3m ... > > Andrew Higgins wrote: > > 2c Joe Mabel wrote: > > 2c > If SCN's decision not to fundraise from corporations and to focus on > a > > 2c > volunteer > > 2c > staff leads directly to this sort of consequence, I think this > consequence > > 2c > calls that decision into question. > > > > On Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Gianni Truzzi wrote: > > 2c Allow me to correct this mistaken belief. The Board of SCNA has NOT > made > > 2c any such decision. In fact, we expect to begin soliciting corporate > and > > 2c foundation funding rather vigorously in the coming months. However, > that > > 2c kind of fundraising effort has taken a back seat to other efforts for > > 2c which it would be prerequisite. It's simply been a matter of > allocating > > > > This "mistaken" belief was first espoused by a member of the Board, and > > made to sound like a policy decision. > > > > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/msg00022.html > > > > Perhaps if we had published minutes it could be made more clear how this > > confusion arose... > > Andrew, > > There's never been any confusion that (until the very recent > City education grant) almost all of SCN's revenues have come > from small personal contributions to CPSR and then to SCNA, and > from small contributions by users for new accounts. > > The City grant was a big departure for SCN, but still we > don't depend on it for providing core services. Those still come > from the sum of all the small personal contributions. > > This is not accidental, and CPSR set it up that way for a > reason. That reason was to avoid any possibility of anything > other than a competely free and independent viewpoint that would > take into account only the interests of the membership and not > of any partner organizations, government agencies, underwriting > businesses or any other entities at all. > > There is a proposal for SCN, called SCN II, that Gianni > drafted recently and that he mentioned during the Annual > Meeting, that would add greatly to the range of possible funding > sources. In the process, it would make membership contributions > relatively much less important because they could not reasonably > be expected to rise to meet the funding levels necessary to > provide greatly improved services to underserved consituencies > and otherwise greatly increase SCN's activities. > > The SCN II proposal has been circulated in draft form and I > hope that you'll soon have a chance to study and comment on it. > Since this is an important new initiative, we all should be > interested in shaping it to provide the best chance for SCN to > grow and at the same time to keep a stable, dependable funding > base and keep its independence. I believe the SCN II proposal > can adequately addresses these concerns, and also believe that > everyone in the Association who is concerned should have the > chance to contribute something to this discusion as we go > forward. > > Rod Clark > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Sat Feb 26 15:28:39 2000 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 15:28:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Workshop Call Message-ID: <200002262328.PAA15836@scn.org> I realize it's getting a bit late... But I thought there was a small possibility that you had not see our call for workshop proposals. Thanks! -- Doug --------------------------------------------------------- Please distribute widely to appropriate people and forums --------------------------------------------------------- Shaping the Network Society The Future of the Public Sphere in Cyberspace DIAC-00 http://www.scn.org/cpsr/diac-00 A Directions and Implications of Advanced Computing Symposium Sponsored by Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility Call for Workshop Proposals May 20 - May 23, 2000 Seattle, Washington, USA The objective of DIAC-00 is to integrate many perspectives, conversations, and people from around the world on the topic of public space in cyberspace: What is it? What should it be? Why is it important? What can people, organizations, and governments do about it? The conference will feature 20 - 40 workshops on a variety of important themes. These workshops will include work being done in the Puget Sound region as well as that from around the United States and the world. Although any relevant workshop proposal is welcome we especially encourage those that address the following themes. % Learning technology basics and network society survival skills % Connecting human concerns with communication infrastructure, strategy, and policy % Building collaborative projects especially across economic, political, technological, ideological, age, gender, or racial boundaries) % Developing new roles for artists, educators, journalists, and others % Designing appropriate public policy at local, regional, national and global levels We encourage proposals which % Encourage participation within the workshop context % Have an orientation towards sustained and effective action % Integrate theory and practice % Explore multiple viewpoints % Are clear and jargon-free (as much as possible) % Foster collaboration % Appeal to a variety of people Workshop time slots are 1 1/2 hours each. Longer workshops can use multiple slots. Please see http://www.scn.org/cpsr/diac/workshop.htm for the list of workshops that were convened at "Community Space and Cyberspace", the DIAC-97 symposium. Proposals must be received by March 1, 2000. Decisions will be made by April 1, 2000 Please send your proposals in as soon as they are ready, as some decisions will be made earlier. Also, please let us know if you need an earlier decision from us in able to facilitate your travel arrangements. Each workshop should contain the following information. Name of Workshop: Workshop convenor name(s): Organizational Affiliation (or "none"): Telephone: E-mail: Address: City: State: Zip code or other postal code: Country: Purpose (and/or desired outcomes) of workshop: Briefly describe the workshop activities (workshop plan): What results and/or deliverables do you intend to produce? Primary audience or audiences for this workshop: How many people is this workshop designed for? What are your audio-visual and computer/network needs? (*) List any special concerns or questions (*) Convenor(s) biography (Brief) (*) Although we will do our best to meet your needs, we can't guarantee that we'll be able to do so. We will contact you if there are any questions about meeting technological or other special needs. Please send workshop proposal to: Aki Namioka, DIAC-00 Workshop Chair; CPSR/Seattle; 1003 N. Motor Pl., Seattle, WA 98103, USA. Or, electronically, to diac-00-workshops at scn.org. Electronic submissions must be PLAIN TEXT. Encoded or attached documents will be returned to proposer. Due to budget restraints, unless otherwise noted, workshop convenors do not receive complimentary registration and must register for the conference in order to attend. Some low-income scholarships will be available, however. The general DIAC-00 announcement will be released in January, 2000. A call for abstracts for research oriented submissions has already been released. Please see the (currently under construction) web site (http://www.scn.org/cpsr/diac-00) for additional information. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From aviationexpress at bigfoot.com Sat Feb 26 21:27:48 2000 From: aviationexpress at bigfoot.com (aviationexpress at bigfoot.com) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 18:27:48 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: SCN: Aviation Express Message-ID: <3C8461D35CC@mit.manukau.ac.nz> =============== PRESS RELEASE =============== The Aviation Express Fax is a monthly fax publication that reaches 80% of the corporate aircraft operators in the United States each month. That is 12,000 executive jets & turbo-props. By mail, this would cost nearly $5000. Magazine ads, are also very costly and you still have to get the operators to open the magazine and read your advertisement. Over the last 2 years, our publication has proven itself as a way of effectively informing owners and operators of your aircraft for sale, parts for sale, maintenance and overhaul services, aircraft wanted, aviation services and products, fbo operations, fuel stations, refurbishing services and more. Give it a try. For $33 per printed line, you cannot go wrong. These faxes are sent directly to the chief pilots, aviation directors or decision-makers for aircraft from King Air's, Cheyenne's and Commander's through mid-sized Jets, such as Citation's, Falcon Jet's, Hawker's and Learjet's, through executive jets, such as Gulfstream's and Challenger's, etc. To advertise in the Aviation Express Fax or to receive a FREE copy, just give us a call or send us a faxed request. To add yourself to the monthly recipient list, please send us a fax with your request. Advertising costs $33/line/issue. 561-243-1219 (tel) 561-243-9889 (fax) Thank you for your time. Aviation Express Fax ========================================================================= This email is in full compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending an email with "REMOVE" typed in the subject line and sent to removeavex at bigfoot.com ========================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Mon Feb 28 23:19:02 2000 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:19:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: A volunteer needed (with more to be sought soon) Message-ID: <200002290719.XAA25565@scn.org> Hello! We are currently organzing a CPSR symposium on "Shaping the Network Society" that we hope will attract 500 participants from all over the world. (We've heard from people in Paraguay, Sri Lanka, Hong Kong, Mexico, Russia, the Philippines, etc. etc.) Now I'm starting to get queries from people about lodging and other types of local arrangements issues. We need to be able to answer those questions and we need to put this information on the symposium web site. I realize I should have asked sooner but I'm wondering if anybody would like to volunteer for this job. (You get free admission to the symposium...) The job would be to contact hotels, get some prices, reserve some rooms, along with various types of similar tasks. YOu'd then get it ready for us to put on the web site. If you think you've got a little time (in the very near future -- like tomorrow) and would like to work on this fairly finite chore, please let me know as soon as possible. Thanks for thinking about this!!!! -- Doug ************************************************ * Shaping the Network Society * * An International Symposium * * May 20 - 23, 2000 * * Seattle, Washington US * * http://www.scn.org/cpsr/diac-00 * ************************************************ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * *