From jj at scn.org Fri Aug 3 23:30:27 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 23:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Dial-up lines screwed up. Message-ID: "U. S. Worst", doing business (if you can call it that) as "Qwest Communications", has screwed up royally: At 5 PM Friday they disconnected all lines on both of our numbers. A regular SNAFU. A lengthy session with the repair people has elicited a "commitment" to have this fixed by 7 PM Saturday night. (Maybe sooner, if we get lucky.) Until then, dial-up connections can be made on SPL's number, 386-4140. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Sat Aug 4 09:18:36 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 09:18:36 -0700 Subject: SCN: Spyware removal Message-ID: <3B6BBDEC.10829.83335@localhost> Ad-Aware is recommended by Steve Gibson, developer of OptOut - www.lavasoftusa.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Sun Aug 5 22:12:56 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 22:12:56 -0700 Subject: SCN: Web design Message-ID: <3B6DC4E8.25308.1BECE47@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ======================= (Jakob Nielsen, Alertbox, excerpts)---Too frequently, I hear about companies basing their designs on user input obtained through misguided methods. A typical example? Create a few alternative designs, show them to a group of users, and ask which one they prefer. Wrong. If the users have not actually tried to use the designs, they'll base their comments on surface features. Such input often contrasts strongly with feedback based on real use. To discover which designs work best, watch users as they attempt to perform tasks with the user interface. This method is so simple that many people overlook it, assuming that there must be something more to usability testing. Of course, there are many ways to watch and many tricks to running an optimal user test or field study. But ultimately, the way to get user data boils down to the basic rules of usability: ...Watch what people actually do. ...Do not believe what people say they do. ...Definitely don't believe what people predict they may do in the future. In speculative surveys, people are simply guessing how they might act or which features they'll like; it doesn't mean they'll actually use or like them in real life. When should you collect preference data from users? Only after they have used a design and have a real feeling for how well it supports them. The more a design supports users in easily and efficiently doing what they want to do, the more they like the design. Very understandable. However, when collecting preference data, you must take human nature into account. When talking about past behavior, users' self- reported data is typically three steps removed from the truth: ...In answering questions (particularly in a focus group), people bend the truth to be closer to what they think you want to hear or what's socially acceptable. ...In telling you what they do, people are really telling you what they remember doing. Human memory is very fallible, especially regarding the small details that are crucial for interface design. Users cannot remember some details at all, such as interface elements that they didn't see. ...In reporting what they do remember, people rationalize their behavior. Countless times I have heard statements like "I would have seen the button if it had been bigger." Maybe. All we know is that the user didn't see the button. Finally, you must consider how and when to solicit feedback. Although it might be tempting to simply post a survey online, you're unlikely to get reliable input (if you get any at all). Users who see the survey and fill it out before they've used the site will offer irrelevant answers. Users who see the survey after they've used the site will most likely leave without answering the questions. One question that does work well in a website survey is "Why are you visiting our site today?" This question goes to users' motivation and they can answer it as soon as they arrive. Your best bet in soliciting reliable feedback is to have a captive audience: Conduct formal testing and ask users to fill out a survey at the end. With techniques like paper prototyping, you can test designs and question users without implementing a thing. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Mon Aug 6 15:23:40 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Phone lines finally back. Message-ID: After 72 hours Qwest finally restored our phone lines. It is not entirely clear what happened, except that they were trying to sort out some entanglements left over from the move, and matters went awry. However, the delays in restoring were, to a large extent, sheer dunderheadedness: blunders, and organizational and attitudinal deficits. They do have some very good people--who are nearly overwhelmed by the dunderheadedness. I believe we will be seeking some sort of compensation for their wretched service. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From tim at pnwlg.com Mon Aug 6 17:22:49 2001 From: tim at pnwlg.com (Timothy B. McCormack) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 17:22:49 -0700 Subject: SCN: The Law of Non-Profit Organizations Message-ID: I will be featured speaker at an upcoming seminar entitled, "The Law of Non-Profits." The seminar is on Friday September 28, 2001 and if for lawyer and non-lawyers. I will be sending out some information on this seminar soon. My topic is Intellectual Property Issues for Non-Profits. I have two questions: First, does anyone have any special intellectual property related questions that he would like to have answered or addressed? I am in the process of putting the materials together for my presentation so this is a good time to ask those questions that have been nagging at you. Second, I have been asked to send brochures to different organizations and boards that might be interested in attending. Does anyone have any suggestions about other organizations that I should contact? Tim Timothy B. McCormack Pacific NorthWest Law Group Judd & Sailer, P.L.L.C. 8573 - 154th Ave NE P.O. Box 86 Redmond, WA 98073 Phone: (425) 867-0512 Fax: (425) 883-4616 This e-mail may contain confidential information which is legally privileged. The information is solely for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or other use of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us by return e-mail and delete this message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Timothy B. McCormack.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 894 bytes Desc: not available URL: From barb at craftebooks.com Tue Aug 7 09:15:41 2001 From: barb at craftebooks.com (Barb Avonia Weismann) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 09:15:41 -0700 Subject: SCN: Paint donations Message-ID: <000701c11f5c$35be49c0$38c1a2d8@barb> Hi, this is Barb Weismann, I am again asking for stuff for Seattle Public Theater at the Bathhouse: does anyone have leftover paint, that can be tinted, or is green/yellow/blue? We are working on a set for The Tempest done by youth 11 t0 17. Free performances Aug. 17 at 7 and 18 at 2 PM!! Contact me 206-528-2432, thanks! Barb *-----*-----*-----* Get Barb's book at www.craftebooks.com! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Aug 7 10:46:15 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 10:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Dial-up lines screwed up. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010807174615.11292.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> JJ, At least their service is consistent! Patrick --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > "U. S. Worst", doing business (if you can call it that) as "Qwest > Communications", has screwed up royally: At 5 PM Friday they disconnected > all lines on both of our numbers. A regular SNAFU. > > A lengthy session with the repair people has elicited a "commitment" to > have this fixed by 7 PM Saturday night. (Maybe sooner, if we get lucky.) > Until then, dial-up connections can be made on SPL's number, 386-4140. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Wed Aug 8 15:45:00 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: DIAC-02 -- Seattle -- May '02 -- First call... Message-ID: <200108082245.PAA29033@scn.org> Greetings! This is the first call for submissions for the next DIAC symposium. It should be even better than last time. Please send this call along to other interested people and lists. Hope you all can participate! Be watching for exciting volunteer opportunities!! Thanks -- -- Doug -------> first CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS /// Please forward to interested people, lists, newsgroups. Thank you! Shaping the Network Society: Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02/ May 16-19, 2002 Seattle, Washington, USA Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure is being shaped today. But by whom and to what ends? Researchers, community workers, social activists, educators and students, journalists, artists, policymakers, and citizens are all concerned about the shape that this new infrastructure will take. Will it meet the needs of all people? Will it help the citizenry address current and future issues? Will it promote democracy, social justice, sustainability? Will the appropriate research be conducted? Will equitable policies be enacted? Symposium Aims A "public sphere" where people learn about, discuss, and deliberate on important issues, such as increasing economic disparity, militarization, environmental degradation, racism or sexism, is critical to our future. Clearly, information and communication technology--and the uses to which it is put--is central to any effort that helps empower people to effectively look at and resolve our collective concerns. At the same time, giant media conglomerates and computer companies are rapidly increasing their control of the information and communication infrastructure upon which this public sphere depends. Governments, too, are often part of this problem; instead of promoting access and two-way access to this infrastructure, they actively or passively discourage civic sector uses. Civil society is responding in a million ways. The opportunities and challenges offered by a global "network society" are too great to be ignored. The Shaping the Network Society symposium is designed to aid in these efforts by providing a forum and a platform for these critical issues. And, through the use of "patterns," we hope that this conference will help inject organization, motivation, and inspiration into the evolution of an information and communication infrastructure that truly meets today's -- and tomorrow's -- urgent needs. Please join us in Seattle (and beyond) in May 2002 for this exciting and important event! DIAC-02 This event will be the eighth biannual Directions and Implications of Advanced Computing (DIAC) symposium. A variety of events are planned ranging from invited speakers, panel discussions, and pattern presentations to numerous opportunities for informal working sessions -- both planned and spontaneous -- on various topics. Also, as with previous DIAC symposia, we will do our best to provide a few surprises ... Pattern Orientation To promote bridge-building, we are soliciting "patterns," instead of abstracts, that will be developed into full papers for this symposium. A "pattern" is a careful description of a solution or suggestion for remedying an identified problem in a given context that can be used to help develop and harness communication and information technology in ways that affirm human values. The information contained in patterns is similar to that in traditional abstracts or papers, but it is arranged in a common structure in order to inspire scholars and practitioners to think about their work in terms of social implications and actual social engagement; build networks that include research, practice, and advocacy; and facilitate the integration of all submitted patterns into a coherent network of patterns, or "pattern language," that will form a useful and compelling knowledge structure which can help spur additional research, solutions, and activism. As a result, individual patterns are exciting because each is, in essence, a small theory about some part of the communication and information universe. In addition, since the individual patterns will be stored in an online database, the overall strategy opens myriad possibilities that will allow us as a community to synthesize the patterns into a collectively constructed body that creates new opportunities for collaboration and deliberation. We believe that the "pattern" orientation will be beneficial and thought-provoking for all participants. If you are tempted to submit a pattern, we encourage you to do so. Although this approach may require different thinking, we believe that it will be worth the effort. Patterns can be submitted for consideration for presentation at the Shaping the Network Society conference, or simply to be published on the web site and as a contribution to the knowledge structure. Developing and Submitting Patterns Patterns are SOLUTIONS to PROBLEMS in a given CONTEXT. Patterns can be observable actions, empirical findings, hypotheses, theories, social or media critiques, case studies, or "best practices"; indeed, any template or crystallized or distilled knowledge in some area that will help people in the field--researchers, practitioners, journalists, policymakers, artists, citizens. Patterns can address problems, such as the digital divide, that arise in a range of contexts--social, cultural, educational, economic, community, political, and/or technological. Patterns exist at all levels; they can be "global" as well as "local," theoretical as well as practical. Patterns are the springboard for discussion, research, and activism. The primary elements needed to develop a pattern for submission are: - The name or TITLE of the pattern (brief, one-ten words). - A succinct statement of the essence of the PROBLEM in one or two sentences. - A DISCUSSION section (300-600 words) that describes the background of the problem, evidence for its proposed solution, and the range of ways that the solution can be applied. - The SOLUTION to the problem is presented in a summary form that describes the field of physical and social relationships which are required to solve the stated problem, in the stated context. - An optional descriptive image can be used to provide a visual representation of your pattern and/or an optional summary image can show a pictorial representation (diagram) of the solution. Although these IMAGES are an optional element, we encourage you to include them to supply useful information that is difficult to provide in words and to make your pattern page more attractive and consistent with other patterns. Complete details on pattern submission, including example patterns, are available for further clarification at the symposium web site: http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02/ The preferred way to submit patterns is through the pattern intake site, which can be accessed from the symposium site or directly at: http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02/pattern.cgi. If you cannot access the intake site, please send your pattern as email text (no attachments) to docrod99 at hotmail.com. Please consult the help page, http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02/patterns/help.html, for guidance on an e-mail submission. Important Dates December 1, 2001 Deadline for pattern submission for conference consideration January 15, 2002 Feedback to conference pattern submitters (accept/reject decision) March 15, 2002 Full papers (based on accepted patterns) due April 15, 2002 Last day to submit patterns for database inclusion only May 16-19, 2002 Shaping the Network Society Symposium Sponsors Public Sphere Project of Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility (CPSR) National Communication Association Task Force on the Digital Divide Program committee Abdul Alkalimet (US), Alain Ambrosi (Canada), Ann Bishop (US), Kwasi Boakye-Akyeampong (Ghana), Rod Carveth (US), Andrew Clement (Canada), Fiorella de Cindio (Italy), Peter Day (UK), Susana Finquelievich (Argentina), Mike Gurstein (Canada), Harry Hochheiser (US), Toru Ishida (Japan), Susan Kretchmer (US), Brian Loader (UK), Geert Lovink (Netherlands, Australia), Richard Lowenberg (US), Peter Mambrey (Germany), Peter Miller (US), Kenneth Pigg (US), Scott Robinson (Mexico), Partha Pratim Sarker (Bangladesh), Doug Schuler (US), David Silver (US), Sergei Stafeev (Russia), Erik Stolterman (Sweden) and Peter Van den Besselaar (Netherlands). Other invaluable assistance Noriko Okazaki (graphics), Robin Oppenheimer (advisor), Scott Rose (web technology). * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Thu Aug 9 13:00:52 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: job at Evergreeen Message-ID: <200108092000.NAA04937@scn.org> pardon this interruption -- work with me (and others) at Evergreen! ---------------------------- Computer Support Consultant - Evenings/Weekends for The Evergreen State College in Olympia, WA. Information Technology Consultant IV position supporting technology use in part-time studies programs, including software evaluation, h/s testing, training, documentation, system configuration, and solving complex problems. Requires flexible hours (such as Tue-Fri noon to 9pm and Sat 9am to 6pm). Min Quals: One year of experience as an Information Technology Consultant III OR a Bachelor's Degree in computer science or a related field AND one year of experience in application support OR equivalent education/experience. Salary:$3215 to $4115 per month, plus excellent benefits. Closes: August 20, 2001. For app/info visit www.evergreen.edu/user/HRS; e-mail jobline at evergreen.edu; or call (360) 867-6361. Hearing/speech impaired may call (360) 867-6695 (TTY). EOE/AA/ADA. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Mon Aug 13 21:50:50 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 21:50:50 -0700 Subject: SCN: Web bugs Message-ID: <3B784BBA.9833.5F9C7F0@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ========================= (John Schwartz, NY Times)---Many people who have personal Web pages are unknowingly tracking people who visit and sending the information to third parties, according to a new report. The report - which will be released today by Cyveillance, which tracks Internet sites for corporate clients - says that the use of an Internet monitoring technology popularly known as "Web bugs" has exploded on personal Web pages - especially those created free through online companies like America Online and Geocities, a company owned by Yahoo. The monitoring technology, which can be used to gather information on visitors to a Web site, is invisibly added to the Web pages as part of elements that the sites offer to help create the Web page. America Online, for example, encourages users to place an advertisement offering a free trial membership; the company promises to pay users $50 for any new America Online member who signs up for the service by clicking on the ad. When users place the AOL ad on their pages, they also get a Web bug that passes information along to Be Free Inc., an Internet market research and advertising company. The Web bug technology, which is also known by such terms as "clear gifs" and "Web beacons," now appears on 18 percent of personal pages, compared with less than 4 percent of pages over all and 16 percent of home pages for major companies. In a similar survey that Cyveillance conducted in 1998, fewer than 0.5 percent of personal Web pages contained Web bugs. "The increase was so large on personal pages we went back to check it, because we thought it must be a mistake," said Brian Murray, the author of the report. The privacy policy of Yahoo states that the company sometimes uses Web bugs, but does not say explicitly that it places them on personal pages of its users. The America Online privacy policy does not describe the use of Web bugs on personal pages. Often invisible, Web bugs are generally innocuous: they are often used, for example, to count visitors to sites or to gather statistical information about Web sites without collecting any personal information about those visitors. Andrew Weinstein, a spokesman for America Online, said that its Web bugs collect no personally identifiable information on the visitors to personal pages, and had a single purpose: "to send checks to people" whose Web pages attract new customers to the company. But privacy advocates find the potential of such bugs alarming. Scott Charney, an Internet privacy and security expert at PricewaterhouseCoopers, said that he had seen an early draft of the Cyveillance survey, and that if Web bugs were in fact being used without consumers' knowledge to gather information, "it's extremely troubling - the technology should not be used to collect information in such a covert way." The use of bugs to track people and to create profiles of them becomes more powerful - and, some privacy advocates argue, more problematic - when the technology is used by a network of sites linked to some third party. The bugs are often placed on pages by third parties, like online advertising agencies, to collect data about visitors to pages of the agencies' clients and to help the advertising company to determine which banner ads the visitors should see. By sharing information among Web bugs across several different sites, the bug can also be used to track people's movements as they wander across the Internet. And if the visitor has given personal information to one site, say by registering for contests or signing a visitor's log, then the information can be linked to his or her activities on any other site with a Web bug issued by the same third party. Cyveillance, which is based in Arlington, Va., conducted the survey, which included a million Web pages, to determine how prevalent these bugs have become; since the company works with clients to safeguard their reputations in the online world, Cyveillance executives said, the survey was intended to warn companies about the growing controversy surrounding the bugs. The Cyveillance report did not identify companies that place Web bugs. The Web site for Be Free, the company that gets a great deal of the America Online traffic, says it "sits uniquely in the middle of a valuable data stream between businesses, their online marketing partners and consumers." The company is based in Marlborough, Mass. Tom Gerace, the company's co- founder, said the company did not collect any information that could be used to identify consumers personally. He said that he created Be Free with his brother in 1996 to provide "flexible, robust marketing analysis so our customers and their affiliates can become better marketers over time." The monitoring technology, which he says he prefers to refer to as Web beacons, helps track billions of advertising promotions each month for companies like America Online, Microsoft, and Barnesandnoble.com. Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Tue Aug 14 23:51:57 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: email & serious trouble Message-ID: I gather that at the moment something is wrong with the scn.org system, bigtime, since an email I sent to scn at scn.org hours ago still hasn't been distributed to the list, & I can't access http://www.scn.org. I guess it may be a while till anyone receives the email I am now writing. That leads me to a question/suggestion: Could we establish an email address NOT hosted on scn.org to reach some sysop, or the hardware folks, or something, so that there is a straightforward way to report major outages? Or is there already something in place (an email address I don't know about, a phone number, whatever) for this purpose? -------------------- Joe Mabel * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at aa.net Wed Aug 15 03:19:58 2001 From: sharma at aa.net (Sharma) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 03:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Bamboo roots available Message-ID: I have just dug up the yellow bamboo roots in my yard which jumped the barrier so about 10 feet of roots are available for anyone wishing to plant them. This grows about 20" tall, winters fine here, and must be contained/controlled as it is invasive. It makes a wonderful screen from the street or neighbors, is green year-round, and will take about three years to have significant growth from these roots. They will only last a couple days in the sun, so if you want them, email me right away. -sharma * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Tue Aug 14 17:43:01 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 17:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: recycling computers Message-ID: We've had a few exchanges on this list about recycling computers in the abstract. I'm wondering if anyone knows anything more concrete. I have miscellaneous obselete and obselecent computer hardware in various states of repair, ranging from a 386 with a bad disk to a perfectly OK 14-inch monitor. I'd like to get rid of this stuff. I'd rather not throw it in a landfill and (selfishly) ideally I'd like not to pay to get rid of it. I live in Seattle. Does anyone have concrete suggestions? -------------------- "Well Mack the Finger said to Louie the King I got forty red white and blue shoe strings And a thousand telephones that don't ring* Do you know where I can get rid of these things?" - Bob Dylan, "Highway 61 Revisited" * I've got a few of those, too, but unlike the computers they are at least small... Joe Mabel * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Wed Aug 15 14:57:31 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Nurturing the Cybercommons: 1981 - 2021 Message-ID: <200108152157.OAA01264@scn.org> Please help spread the word by forwarding to interested people, lists, and newsgroups. Thank you! Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility presents Nurturing the Cybercommons: 1981 - 2021 October 19 - 21, 2001, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor http://www.cpsr.org/ In 2001, Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility celebrates its 20th anniversary by looking backwards and forwards two decades at the history and future of the global cybercommons. Panels and presentations will examine the key historical events that shaped today's Internet, and the prospects for its future evolution. FEATURED SPEAKERS: Howard Besser UCLA School of Education & Information Studies Jessica Litman Wayne State University Steve Mann Toronto University David Parnas McMaster University NORBERT WIENER AWARD WINNERS: Theodore Postol Massachusetts Institute of Technology Nira Schwartz Citizen Who Cares About our Nation CONFERENCE AGENDA FRIDAY, OCTOBER 19, 2:00 - 5:00 (Friday seminars are free and open to the public) ELECTRONIC VOTING: CAN TECHNOLOGY IMPROVE DEMOCRACY? Where some see voting technology coming to democracy's rescue, others fear that increasingly sophisticated technology will lead to increasingly sophisticated and effective electoral abuses. Leading advocates and opponents of the application of advanced information technology to the electoral process will debate each other directly. WHAT IS AN INFORMATION COMMONS AND WHY SHOULD WE CARE? Howard Besser will explain why an information commons is critical to us as social beings. After tracing some of the history of our information commons, he will focus on recent attempts to fence off sections of it and will show that changes to copyright, free speech, and privacy could threaten our very social fabric. SATURDAY, OCTOBER 20, 9:00 - 5:30 ACROSS THE GREAT DIVIDE: WHERE IS THE INTERNET GOING, AND WHO WILL GO THERE? (a special morning double session followed by an open discussion with the panelists) I. TOMORROW'S INTERNET: INTERNET2 AND THE ISSUES IT RAISES Internet2 is a consortium working to develop and deploy advanced network applications and technologies, accelerating the creation of tomorrow's Internet. Speakers from Internet2 and EDUCAUSE will provide a glimpse of the Internet of the future, followed by a panel discussion of the key legislative, regulatory, and budgetary issues that such a future entails. ELECTRONIC RECORDS AND GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY: PRESENT PRACTICE AND FUTURE PROSPECTS How are government records managed and what implications does that management have for democratic accountability? Panelists will discuss this question and will argue that solving electronic records problems such as hardware and software obsolescence is essential for our continued governance, accountability, and cultural memory. INFORMATION WARFARE AND THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENTS AND MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS Even though information warfare is the subject of headlines and the cause of significant Pentagon expenses, it's often difficult to see what it really is. Using real-world scenarios, panelists will explore some elements of information warfare and its implications for traditional nation-states and military establishments. II. THE DIGITAL DIVIDE As information technology races ahead, too many people are in danger of being left behind. Speakers from the Alliance for Community Technology (ACT) and elsewhere will discuss the problem and the opportunities for closing the gap, featuring highlights and conclusions from a summer ACT workshop on the Digital Divide. SOCIAL ISSUES FOR COMPUTING PROFESSIONALS 1987 Wiener Award winner David Parnas will focus on what he sees as the need for computer professionals to inform the culture on issues such as the feasibility (or lack thereof) of software for missile defense, the need for training and licensing for those who write critical software, the benefits of a multiplicity of networks versus only one, and the question of whether computer professionals have been bought out by the military-industrial complex. SUBJECTRIGHTS IN THE CYBORG AGE Informed by twenty years experience with wearable computers, Steve Mann will address some of the philosophical issues of being one with the machine, focusing on the notion of Subjectrights, in which the individual can operate as if he or she were a large corporation. Mann will also discuss self- corporatization, self-bureaucratization, and self-demotion as means for dealing with bureaucratic organizations, as well as his research results in social responsibility and social desponsibility. NORBERT WIENER AWARD DINNER - 7:00 p.m Twenty Years Later: Star Wars Remains Expensive Science Fiction CPSR Awards the 2001 Norbert Wiener Award to Nira Schwartz and Theodore Postol for Their Courage in Exposing that Fiction. Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility was founded twenty years ago, in part to organize the vast majority of computer scientists who understood that Star Wars was simply not within the realm of technical possibility. Twenty years later, with millions of lines of code written, the concept remains fantasy. CPSR Awards its Annual Norbert Wiener Award to Dr. Nira Schwartz and Dr. Theodore Postol for exposing the failure of Star Wars technology. For disagreeing with those who would accept funding on any pretense, both of these computer professionals have suffered career damage, from refused funding to unceremonious dismissal. Dr. Nira Schwartz, who worked on the Star Wars project in 1995 and 1996, charged her employer, TRW, with misleading the Pentagon and the public by falsifying test results as to the ability of the system to distinguish real warheads from decoys. She was summarily fired, allegedly as a result of her refusal to cooperate with the publication of false test reports. Dr. Theodore Postol, science adviser to the Chief of Naval Operations and professor of science, technology, and national security at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, discredited the myth that Patriot missiles shot down Scuds during Desert Storm. His independent scientific analysis of the TRW test data concurs with Dr. Schwartz's claims of falsified results. Tickets for the dinner may be purchased without registering for the conference. http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/annmtg01/wiener.html SUNDAY, OCTOBER 21, 9:00 - 3:00 NEOCAPITALISM AND THE HIVE MIND Jessica Litman will talk about the conflict between the common, collaborative information space developing on the net (the "Hive Mind") and a copyright law that commodifies anything it can nail down and then forbids everyone from using it without explicit permission. CPSR ANNUAL MEMBERSHIP MEETING (free and open to the public) Including CPSR Activity Updates: ICANN: promoting legitimate Internet governance. UCITA: fighting the legalization of bad software. ************************************* REGISTRATION (space is limited, so register early) Name ____________________________________________ Address __________________________________________ City _____________________ State ____ ZIP ___________ Country __________________________________________ E-mail ___________________________________________ Company/School ___________________________________ Payment method: ___ check ___ VISA ___ MC Credit card #: _______________________________________ Card exp. date: _______ /_______ Signature: ___________________________________ How did you hear about the conference: ______________________________________________ Rates Register by 9/18 After 9/18 Renew or Join CPSR for only: $10 $10 and register as a CPSR Member CPSR Member Conference Only $50 $ 65 Conference + Wiener Dinner $80 $110* Conf. Low Income or Student $10 $ 15 Conference Low Income + Dinner $40 $ 60* Non-Member Conference Only $ 75 $ 90 Conference + Wiener Dinner $120 $150* Conf. Low Income or Student $ 20 $ 25 Conference Low Income + Dinner $ 65 $ 85* Conference Press Representatives $ 0 $ 0 Wiener Award Dinner Only Press $30 $30* Member $35 $60* Non-Member $55 $85* Low Income/Student $30 $45* Donation to further CPSR's work $ _____ TOTAL ENCLOSED $ _____ Mail this registration form and payment to CPSR, P.O. Box 717, Palo Alto, CA 94302 or register online at https://swww.igc.apc.org/cpsr/annMtg2001.html For further conference details and online registration, visit http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/annmtg01/program.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From rockybay at scn.org Thu Aug 16 09:51:56 2001 From: rockybay at scn.org (Malcolm Taran) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: recycling computers, responsibly disposing of old computers and , useless hardware In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue. 14 Aug. Joe wrote: > We've had a few exchanges on this list about recycling computers in the abstract. I'm wondering if anyone knows anything more concrete. > Hi I recently talked with Goodwill. They accept working units only, (computers, monitors, printers, peripherals) not more than two (2) years old. They charge a $10 fee for monitors not together with a working system. St. Vincent de Paul accepts 486 or newer only, otherwise with the same conditions. On Thu, 2 Aug I talked to Re-PC. *** Re-PC will take useless hardware, no charge. *** but $10 fee for useless and monochrome monitors. The $10 is the hazmat handling cost, nonprofit. I couldn't find a responsible way to dispose for free. Re-PC is an authorized County recycler and hazmat agent. They disaassemble for as much recycling as is available. *** So we don't need to put _any_ in the dumpster anymore. *** Please note that "recycling" does not truly apply to computers, apart from sheet metal. "Recycling" means can be made back into what it was before. We have a long way to go to get to that. So far, at best, most plastics can be remade into, say, construction material that is subsequently landfill. As for circuit boards and all, CPSR and SCN would be well to help push for more responsible design and manufacture, toward reducing toxicities and increasing recyclabilities. There is a nascent industry program to better dispose (as well as further reuse before disposal). --> Ti , Sharma, have you further leads? Malcolm Taran * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Fri Aug 17 00:22:42 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: email & serious trouble In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joe was asking if there is any way for general SCN users to report serious problems. (By serious, I mean like the system is down, not that some modem has to burp.) In short: no. Extensive experience has shown that user reports of serious trouble are usually incorrect, and not timely. That is, someone in Ops invariably notices the problem and contacts an appropriate person before any user makes any kind of report. When restoration is delayed it is usually not because no one noticed, but because of other problems. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at aa.net Tue Aug 21 14:28:19 2001 From: sharma at aa.net (Sharma) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: [Fwd: FC: Letter from DOJ to good samaritan who noted web security hole] (fwd) Message-ID: Our gov says "Thank you"! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:21:17 -0700 -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Declan McCullagh Subject: FC: Letter from DOJ to good samaritan who noted web security hole Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:19:27 -0600 Size: 5172 URL: From sharma at aa.net Tue Aug 21 14:31:01 2001 From: sharma at aa.net (Sharma) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Windows keeps track of where you have been Message-ID: I attempted to remove the index.dat files on my computer with zero success ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:28:13 -0700 http://nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=208727&thesection=news&thesubsection=general http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=208652 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Tue Aug 21 16:39:07 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Windows keeps track of where you have been In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sharma wrote: > I attempted to remove the index.dat files on my computer with zero success There's always FDISK. :) === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Tue Aug 21 17:29:15 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Windows keeps track of where you have been In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I attempted to remove the index.dat files on my computer with > zero success Sharma, There's a site called "Microsoft's Really Hidden Files" that lists a number of system files that aren't ordinarily accessible to the user, apparently including the index.dat file that the New Zealand Times article mentioned. It gives some instructions about how to remove them, and from just a quick look, it seems to be more detailed than the newspaper article. See http://www.scn.org/freespeech/privacy and look under the heading Data Privacy on Personal Computers. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Tue Aug 21 17:54:39 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Windows keeps track of where you have been In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, J. Johnson wrote: > On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sharma wrote: > > > I attempted to remove the index.dat files on my computer with zero success > > There's always FDISK. :) Too drastic! If you keep Windoze, you can run Partition Magic and generate Linux formatted partions all ready for a Linux install to 80% of the drive space! :>) Ken Applegate > > === JJ ============================================================= > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Tue Aug 21 18:34:53 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 18:34:53 -0700 Subject: SCN: Windows keeps track of where you have been In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B82A9CD.949.761C1@localhost> Sharma wrote: > I attempted to remove the index.dat files on my computer with zero > success There's an alleged solution here - www.geocities.com/jansson_markus/indexdatclen.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Tue Aug 21 19:54:36 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Logos (fwd) Message-ID: Does anyone know who this is? I received 2 of these exactly the same? Thanx, Irene ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:59:01 +1000 From: Andrew Brajbisz To: bn890 at scn.org Subject: Logos Hi! How are you? I send you this file in order to have your advice See you later. Thanks From scoth at scn.org Tue Aug 21 21:30:07 2001 From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on scn.org) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:30:07 -0700 Subject: SCN: Re: Logos (fwd) References: Message-ID: <014001c12ac3$281d9060$a28cc5ce@corp.thurman.com> Sure. It looks like the SirCam worm/virus that made the rounds in July. Since you're using Pine you're not affected. The person/people who emailed you have the virus. They need to get the cleanup tool from McAfee's website. It's specifically for SirCam. I wish I had used it first, 'coz the hot-off-the-press extra.dat from McAfee didn't fix the registry, leading me to a couple of days of creative fixing. Scot -- Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) Greenbank, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Irene Mogol" To: Sent: Tuesday, 21 August, 2001 7:54 PM Subject: SCN: Logos (fwd) > Does anyone know who this is? I received 2 of these exactly the same? > Thanx, Irene > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:59:01 +1000 > From: Andrew Brajbisz > To: bn890 at scn.org > Subject: Logos > > Hi! How are you? > > I send you this file in order to have your advice > > See you later. Thanks > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Tue Aug 21 22:35:52 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 22:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Logos (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Irene Mogol wrote: > Does anyone know who this is? I received 2 of these exactly the same? > Thanx, Irene STOP!!!! Do NOT open those email attachments on a Windows machine! They are probably variants of the SirCam virus that has been going around for the past two weeks. If you received them on SCN, using the Pine mail program, they won't cause any harm, but you should still delete them and not pass them along to anyone else via email. You can check on recent viruses at the McAfee Virus Information Library: http://vil.mcafee.com/ I used to recommnd this site highly, but in recent months McAfee seems to be cluttering up their site more and more with advertisements for their products to the point where it is difficult to wade through them to the information you want! Norton AntiVirus has a similar library of virus information, but I haven't used it enough to give you a direct web pointer to it. Start at www.symantec.com. Ken Applegate > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:59:01 +1000 > From: Andrew Brajbisz > To: bn890 at scn.org > Subject: Logos > > Hi! How are you? > > I send you this file in order to have your advice > > See you later. Thanks > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Tue Aug 21 22:42:50 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 22:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: Logos (fwd) In-Reply-To: <014001c12ac3$281d9060$a28cc5ce@corp.thurman.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Scot Harkins on scn.org wrote: > Sure. It looks like the SirCam worm/virus that made the rounds in July. > Since you're using Pine you're not affected. The person/people who emailed > you have the virus. They need to get the cleanup tool from McAfee's > website. It's specifically for SirCam. I wish I had used it first, 'coz > the hot-off-the-press extra.dat from McAfee didn't fix the registry, leading > me to a couple of days of creative fixing. Scot - can you tell me the specific file on McAfee for the SirCam virus? And is it small enough to stick on a rescue floppy? I suspect my boss has it on his home computer, and would like to give him a rescue diskette to clean it out. He is trying to install McAfee out of the box, but of course the CD stops when it detects infecting viruses, and the rescue diskette that comes with the product is too outdated to find anything. And full McAfee DAT files won't fit on a diskette. Ken Applegate > > > Scot > > -- > Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) > Greenbank, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington > scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir > scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Irene Mogol" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, 21 August, 2001 7:54 PM > Subject: SCN: Logos (fwd) > > > > Does anyone know who this is? I received 2 of these exactly the same? > > Thanx, Irene > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:59:01 +1000 > > From: Andrew Brajbisz > > To: bn890 at scn.org > > Subject: Logos > > > > Hi! How are you? > > > > I send you this file in order to have your advice > > > > See you later. Thanks > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at aa.net Wed Aug 22 00:09:43 2001 From: sharma at aa.net (Sharma) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Logos (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That is what the sircam virus looked like when I got it. -s On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Irene Mogol wrote: > Does anyone know who this is? I received 2 of these exactly the same? > Thanx, Irene > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:59:01 +1000 > From: Andrew Brajbisz > To: bn890 at scn.org > Subject: Logos > > Hi! How are you? > > I send you this file in order to have your advice > > See you later. Thanks > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at aa.net Wed Aug 22 00:10:56 2001 From: sharma at aa.net (Sharma) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: [Fwd: FC: DOJ prosecution of "good samaritan" may be justified after all?] (fwd) Message-ID: The plot thickens.... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:50:46 -0700 -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Declan McCullagh Subject: FC: DOJ prosecution of "good samaritan" may be justified after all? Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:02:58 -0400 Size: 4726 URL: From steve at advocate.net Thu Aug 23 08:12:15 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:12:15 -0700 Subject: SCN: Control of the net Message-ID: <3B84BADF.16716.5102703@localhost> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 29331 bytes Desc: not available URL: From douglas Mon Aug 27 15:55:57 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Part-Time Studies for Full-time Lives Message-ID: <200108272255.PAA20812@scn.org> Please excluse this mailing if it's not appropriate. On the other hand, please feel free to forward it to anybody in who might be interested in the part-time studies program at Evergreen. (If you're at all interested in the computer side of it -- at least part of the computer side -- check out what I've taught at http://www.scn.org/edu/tesc-ds/.) Thanks! -- Doug ---------------------------------------------- Part-Time Studies for Full-time Lives The Evergreen State College Part-Time Studies Program is offering an Informational Forum in Seattle. This is an opportunity for Seattle residents to learn how to complete a bachelors degree through classes designed for the commuter student. We offer evening, weekend and intensive based half-time programs that allow adult students to fit college into a busy life. Students can focus their studies in computer science, management, psychology, and many other areas through our Part-Time Studies Program. To find out more come to our Informational Forum held August 29, from 7 to 8:30 p.m. at the Douglas - Truth Branch of the Seattle Public Library. The Douglas - Truth Branch of the library is located at 2300 E Yesler. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From supportteam at speedbit.com Tue Aug 28 01:40:54 2001 From: supportteam at speedbit.com (SpeedBit Support Team) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 04:40:54 -0400 Subject: SCN: An Update - Download Accelerator 5.0 New Version !!! Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 11:51:58 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign Message-ID: <20010828185158.10628.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, This message was originally posted to the webmasters and webeditors email lists. JJ brought it to my attention that I should post the message about the site and logo redesign to this list. I'm new to the list as of 5 minutes ago. SCN is planning on updating the site to make it look more professional. This is the goal for the site redesign communicated to me by Ti Locke: The goal is have the board vote on two or three possibilities for both a logo and a site redesign and then ask SCN users to comment. Meeting is 9/13, with comment period of say, two weeks...with new logo and site design going up first week in October. That would put Ti right on the timeline for both grantwriting...and having web mail up and running. Patrick SCN Web Team Coordinator/Webmaster P.S. Did I leave anyone out of the loop? P.P.S. If you have logo ideas, sketches, complaints, accolades, please email them to this email address and I will collate them and let the board see them. Everyone's input is important. We need to hear how you feel about what the logo should express, what colors we may want to use for the site, type of layout. So give us your ideas. Don't worry about flaming me. It's been a cooler than normal summer and I wear virtual asbestos. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Aug 28 13:17:19 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: <20010828185158.10628.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Since flaming is not a problem for you, Patrick, I'll flame away... :-) Basically I have two comments -- The first is that I think the current logo is fine. Perhaps clean it up a bit, fine-tune, etc. SCN currently has a logo that is distinctive and has been identified with our efforts over the years. It has been used in presentations to large audiences both in the states and elsewhere and has been shown in print in many venues. I think that changing the logo -- especially as I fear to make it more dot-commy, more space-age, or whatever by "modernizing" it and taking any edge it might have off is really a bad idea. (It reminds me a bit of my [five-year] *old* essay on "how to kill community networks - http://www.scn.org/commnet/kill-commnets.html. We're NOT the phone company searching for a logo that looks coolest, we're a community network system with a set of idealistic principles (http://www.scn.org/commnet/principles.html) that are still critical (and probably always will be). The second is that this redesign is NOT what we need at the moment. If anybody has taken a look at our web page this YEAR they'll know what I'm talking about. Yes, it has been nearly a year since there was any sort of content on our front page. It looks (and has for months and months!!!) like the "message of the day" on a unix dialup system. When I think of all the squandered opportunity here I feel almost sick. This site gets thousands and thousands of hits every month and it has almost always been some message like "SCN is moving in 3 months" or "SCN now back on line." We had an excellent model almost all of last year -- see http://www.scn.org/week/ -- but that went away. I don't know if it was internal politics but it was a very palpable NET LOSS for SCN and what we're trying to accomplish with SCN. I am sorry for *flaming* here but I have written probably 10 letters to the board and to others and to the best of my knowledge I have never received any feedback on this issue. Redesign, schmedesign, let's put some CONTENT on our front page!!!! -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > Hi, > > This message was originally posted to the webmasters and webeditors email > lists. JJ brought it to my attention that I should post the message about the > site and logo redesign to this list. I'm new to the list as of 5 minutes ago. > > SCN is planning on updating the site to make it look more professional. > > This is the goal for the site redesign communicated to me by Ti Locke: > > The goal is have the board vote on two or three possibilities for both a logo > and a site redesign and then ask SCN users to comment. Meeting is 9/13, with > comment period of say, two weeks...with new logo and site design going up first > week in October. That would put Ti right on the timeline for both > grantwriting...and having web mail up and running. > > Patrick > SCN Web Team Coordinator/Webmaster > > P.S. Did I leave anyone out of the loop? > > P.P.S. If you have logo ideas, sketches, complaints, accolades, please email > them to this email address and I will collate them and let the board see them. > Everyone's input is important. We need to hear how you feel about what the logo > should express, what colors we may want to use for the site, type of layout. So > give us your ideas. > > Don't worry about flaming me. It's been a cooler than normal summer and I wear > virtual asbestos. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From femme2 at scn.org Tue Aug 28 20:46:16 2001 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > Basically I have two comments -- > > The first is that I think the current logo is fine. Perhaps clean it up a > bit, fine-tune, etc. SCN currently has a logo that is distinctive and has > been identified with our efforts over the years. It has been used in > presentations to large audiences both in the states and elsewhere and has > been shown in print in many venues.... Mostly thanks to Doug. I didn't like the logo and complained about it a lot, but I think Doug's point is valid. It's been seen on t-shirts, books, pamphlets, etc. It has identified SCN for many years and in many circumstances, both locally and internationally. It is definitely not slick nor corporate-looking. Which would be a criticism in some circles - I think it's a mistake to deny SCN's grass roots. > > The second is that this redesign is NOT what we need at the moment. If > anybody has taken a look at our web page this YEAR they'll know what I'm > talking about.... Again, I agree. It's a lot of work to provide content that is of interest to the community. I used to find surprising stuff - it was a resource for my Internet class at Miller Community Center and they appreciated knowing about SCN and having a kind of gateway to community news. Now there's no point in even mentioning SCN - they all want Hotmail or Yahoo e-mail accounts. There's nothing to entice them into exploring what's new on SCN... why go there? I think SCN could still provide valuable services to the community. If not - the logo redesign is irrelevant. It's history. -- Lorraine > > > -- Doug > > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > This message was originally posted to the webmasters and webeditors email > > lists. JJ brought it to my attention that I should post the message about the > > site and logo redesign to this list. I'm new to the list as of 5 minutes ago. > > > > SCN is planning on updating the site to make it look more professional. > > > > This is the goal for the site redesign communicated to me by Ti Locke: > > > > The goal is have the board vote on two or three possibilities for both a logo > > and a site redesign and then ask SCN users to comment. Meeting is 9/13, with > > comment period of say, two weeks...with new logo and site design going up first > > week in October. That would put Ti right on the timeline for both > > grantwriting...and having web mail up and running. > > > > Patrick > > SCN Web Team Coordinator/Webmaster > > > > P.S. Did I leave anyone out of the loop? > > > > P.P.S. If you have logo ideas, sketches, complaints, accolades, please email > > them to this email address and I will collate them and let the board see them. > > Everyone's input is important. We need to hear how you feel about what the logo > > should express, what colors we may want to use for the site, type of layout. So > > give us your ideas. > > > > Don't worry about flaming me. It's been a cooler than normal summer and I wear > > virtual asbestos. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Aug 28 21:07:39 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not to make a mountain out of a logo... Patrick got back to me and clarified that any changes to the logo are likely to be cosmetic not major changes. I (even) think that *tweaking* it is fine. But high-tech frippery - no thanks! He also suggests that *content* is on the way... -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > Basically I have two comments -- > > > > The first is that I think the current logo is fine. Perhaps clean it up a > > bit, fine-tune, etc. SCN currently has a logo that is distinctive and has > > been identified with our efforts over the years. It has been used in > > presentations to large audiences both in the states and elsewhere and has > > been shown in print in many venues.... > > Mostly thanks to Doug. I didn't like the logo and complained about it > a lot, but I think Doug's point is valid. It's been seen on t-shirts, > books, pamphlets, etc. It has identified SCN for many years and in > many circumstances, both locally and internationally. It is > definitely not slick nor corporate-looking. Which would be a criticism > in some circles - I think it's a mistake to deny SCN's grass roots. > > > > > The second is that this redesign is NOT what we need at the moment. If > > anybody has taken a look at our web page this YEAR they'll know what I'm > > talking about.... > > Again, I agree. It's a lot of work to provide content that is of interest > to the community. I used to find surprising stuff - it was a resource > for my Internet class at Miller Community Center and they appreciated > knowing about SCN and having a kind of gateway to community news. > Now there's no point in even mentioning SCN - they all want Hotmail > or Yahoo e-mail accounts. There's nothing to entice them into > exploring what's new on SCN... why go there? > > I think SCN could still provide valuable services to the community. > If not - the logo redesign is irrelevant. It's history. > > -- Lorraine > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > * is being shaped today. * > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > This message was originally posted to the webmasters and webeditors email > > > lists. JJ brought it to my attention that I should post the message about the > > > site and logo redesign to this list. I'm new to the list as of 5 minutes ago. > > > > > > SCN is planning on updating the site to make it look more professional. > > > > > > This is the goal for the site redesign communicated to me by Ti Locke: > > > > > > The goal is have the board vote on two or three possibilities for both a logo > > > and a site redesign and then ask SCN users to comment. Meeting is 9/13, with > > > comment period of say, two weeks...with new logo and site design going up first > > > week in October. That would put Ti right on the timeline for both > > > grantwriting...and having web mail up and running. > > > > > > Patrick > > > SCN Web Team Coordinator/Webmaster > > > > > > P.S. Did I leave anyone out of the loop? > > > > > > P.P.S. If you have logo ideas, sketches, complaints, accolades, please email > > > them to this email address and I will collate them and let the board see them. > > > Everyone's input is important. We need to hear how you feel about what the logo > > > should express, what colors we may want to use for the site, type of layout. So > > > give us your ideas. > > > > > > Don't worry about flaming me. It's been a cooler than normal summer and I wear > > > virtual asbestos. > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 21:58:43 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010829045843.51977.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, Thanks for mentioning about the logos. There are a variety of designs. The SCN users will be the ones who will be burdened with the decision of what to go with. The board is like the electoral process and will choose a few designs from among many, and then it will be up to you and you and you and everyone else to vote on what they like. Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > Not to make a mountain out of a logo... > > Patrick got back to me and clarified that any changes to the logo > are likely to be cosmetic not major changes. I (even) think > that *tweaking* it is fine. But high-tech frippery - no thanks! > > He also suggests that *content* is on the way... > > -- Doug > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > Basically I have two comments -- > > > > > > The first is that I think the current logo is fine. Perhaps clean it up > a > > > bit, fine-tune, etc. SCN currently has a logo that is distinctive and has > > > been identified with our efforts over the years. It has been used in > > > presentations to large audiences both in the states and elsewhere and has > > > been shown in print in many venues.... > > > > Mostly thanks to Doug. I didn't like the logo and complained about it > > a lot, but I think Doug's point is valid. It's been seen on t-shirts, > > books, pamphlets, etc. It has identified SCN for many years and in > > many circumstances, both locally and internationally. It is > > definitely not slick nor corporate-looking. Which would be a criticism > > in some circles - I think it's a mistake to deny SCN's grass roots. > > > > > > > > The second is that this redesign is NOT what we need at the moment. If > > > anybody has taken a look at our web page this YEAR they'll know what I'm > > > talking about.... > > > > Again, I agree. It's a lot of work to provide content that is of interest > > to the community. I used to find surprising stuff - it was a resource > > for my Internet class at Miller Community Center and they appreciated > > knowing about SCN and having a kind of gateway to community news. > > Now there's no point in even mentioning SCN - they all want Hotmail > > or Yahoo e-mail accounts. There's nothing to entice them into > > exploring what's new on SCN... why go there? > > > > I think SCN could still provide valuable services to the community. > > If not - the logo redesign is irrelevant. It's history. > > > > -- Lorraine > > > > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > > > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > > * is being shaped today. * > > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > This message was originally posted to the webmasters and webeditors > email > > > > lists. JJ brought it to my attention that I should post the message > about the > > > > site and logo redesign to this list. I'm new to the list as of 5 > minutes ago. > > > > > > > > SCN is planning on updating the site to make it look more professional. > > > > > > > > > This is the goal for the site redesign communicated to me by Ti Locke: > > > > > > > > The goal is have the board vote on two or three possibilities for both > a logo > > > > and a site redesign and then ask SCN users to comment. Meeting is 9/13, > with > > > > comment period of say, two weeks...with new logo and site design going > up first > > > > week in October. That would put Ti right on the timeline for both > > > > grantwriting...and having web mail up and running. > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > SCN Web Team Coordinator/Webmaster > > > > > > > > P.S. Did I leave anyone out of the loop? > > > > > > > > P.P.S. If you have logo ideas, sketches, complaints, accolades, please > email > > > > them to this email address and I will collate them and let the board > see them. > > > > Everyone's input is important. We need to hear how you feel about what > the logo > > > > should express, what colors we may want to use for the site, type of > layout. So > > > > give us your ideas. > > > > > > > > Don't worry about flaming me. It's been a cooler than normal summer and > I wear > > > > virtual asbestos. > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! > Messenger > > > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * > * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * > * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Aug 28 21:59:04 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010829045904.96198.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, Thanks for mentioning about the logos. There are a variety of designs. The SCN users will be the ones who will be burdened with the decision of what to go with. The board is like the electoral process and will choose a few designs from among many, and then it will be up to you and you and you and everyone else to vote on what they like. Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > Not to make a mountain out of a logo... > > Patrick got back to me and clarified that any changes to the logo > are likely to be cosmetic not major changes. I (even) think > that *tweaking* it is fine. But high-tech frippery - no thanks! > > He also suggests that *content* is on the way... > > -- Doug > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > Basically I have two comments -- > > > > > > The first is that I think the current logo is fine. Perhaps clean it up > a > > > bit, fine-tune, etc. SCN currently has a logo that is distinctive and has > > > been identified with our efforts over the years. It has been used in > > > presentations to large audiences both in the states and elsewhere and has > > > been shown in print in many venues.... > > > > Mostly thanks to Doug. I didn't like the logo and complained about it > > a lot, but I think Doug's point is valid. It's been seen on t-shirts, > > books, pamphlets, etc. It has identified SCN for many years and in > > many circumstances, both locally and internationally. It is > > definitely not slick nor corporate-looking. Which would be a criticism > > in some circles - I think it's a mistake to deny SCN's grass roots. > > > > > > > > The second is that this redesign is NOT what we need at the moment. If > > > anybody has taken a look at our web page this YEAR they'll know what I'm > > > talking about.... > > > > Again, I agree. It's a lot of work to provide content that is of interest > > to the community. I used to find surprising stuff - it was a resource > > for my Internet class at Miller Community Center and they appreciated > > knowing about SCN and having a kind of gateway to community news. > > Now there's no point in even mentioning SCN - they all want Hotmail > > or Yahoo e-mail accounts. There's nothing to entice them into > > exploring what's new on SCN... why go there? > > > > I think SCN could still provide valuable services to the community. > > If not - the logo redesign is irrelevant. It's history. > > > > -- Lorraine > > > > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > > > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > > * is being shaped today. * > > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > This message was originally posted to the webmasters and webeditors > email > > > > lists. JJ brought it to my attention that I should post the message > about the > > > > site and logo redesign to this list. I'm new to the list as of 5 > minutes ago. > > > > > > > > SCN is planning on updating the site to make it look more professional. > > > > > > > > > This is the goal for the site redesign communicated to me by Ti Locke: > > > > > > > > The goal is have the board vote on two or three possibilities for both > a logo > > > > and a site redesign and then ask SCN users to comment. Meeting is 9/13, > with > > > > comment period of say, two weeks...with new logo and site design going > up first > > > > week in October. That would put Ti right on the timeline for both > > > > grantwriting...and having web mail up and running. > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > SCN Web Team Coordinator/Webmaster > > > > > > > > P.S. Did I leave anyone out of the loop? > > > > > > > > P.P.S. If you have logo ideas, sketches, complaints, accolades, please > email > > > > them to this email address and I will collate them and let the board > see them. > > > > Everyone's input is important. We need to hear how you feel about what > the logo > > > > should express, what colors we may want to use for the site, type of > layout. So > > > > give us your ideas. > > > > > > > > Don't worry about flaming me. It's been a cooler than normal summer and > I wear > > > > virtual asbestos. > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! > Messenger > > > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * > * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * > * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Wed Aug 29 10:49:38 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > > Not to make a mountain out of a logo... > > Patrick got back to me and clarified that any changes to the logo > are likely to be cosmetic not major changes. I (even) think > that *tweaking* it is fine. But high-tech frippery - no thanks! > > He also suggests that *content* is on the way... And badly needed. I basically agree with Doug, and at risk of being too "retro" might go even further. In many ways, I think that earlier incarnations of the SCN web pages were more functional than the current design. For instance, [personal gripe], it used to be possible to get to the Science/Technical area about one level down and find our Seattle Astronomical Society link. Now, it is buried another level or two down, in with a lot of clutter (or resource links, if you prefer). This is not necessarily progress! Ken Applegate > > -- Doug > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > Basically I have two comments -- > > > > > > The first is that I think the current logo is fine. Perhaps clean it up a > > > bit, fine-tune, etc. SCN currently has a logo that is distinctive and has > > > been identified with our efforts over the years. It has been used in > > > presentations to large audiences both in the states and elsewhere and has > > > been shown in print in many venues.... > > > > Mostly thanks to Doug. I didn't like the logo and complained about it > > a lot, but I think Doug's point is valid. It's been seen on t-shirts, > > books, pamphlets, etc. It has identified SCN for many years and in > > many circumstances, both locally and internationally. It is > > definitely not slick nor corporate-looking. Which would be a criticism > > in some circles - I think it's a mistake to deny SCN's grass roots. > > > > > > > > The second is that this redesign is NOT what we need at the moment. If > > > anybody has taken a look at our web page this YEAR they'll know what I'm > > > talking about.... > > > > Again, I agree. It's a lot of work to provide content that is of interest > > to the community. I used to find surprising stuff - it was a resource > > for my Internet class at Miller Community Center and they appreciated > > knowing about SCN and having a kind of gateway to community news. > > Now there's no point in even mentioning SCN - they all want Hotmail > > or Yahoo e-mail accounts. There's nothing to entice them into > > exploring what's new on SCN... why go there? > > > > I think SCN could still provide valuable services to the community. > > If not - the logo redesign is irrelevant. It's history. > > > > -- Lorraine > > > > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > > > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > > * is being shaped today. * > > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > This message was originally posted to the webmasters and webeditors email > > > > lists. JJ brought it to my attention that I should post the message about the > > > > site and logo redesign to this list. I'm new to the list as of 5 minutes ago. > > > > > > > > SCN is planning on updating the site to make it look more professional. > > > > > > > > This is the goal for the site redesign communicated to me by Ti Locke: > > > > > > > > The goal is have the board vote on two or three possibilities for both a logo > > > > and a site redesign and then ask SCN users to comment. Meeting is 9/13, with > > > > comment period of say, two weeks...with new logo and site design going up first > > > > week in October. That would put Ti right on the timeline for both > > > > grantwriting...and having web mail up and running. > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > SCN Web Team Coordinator/Webmaster > > > > > > > > P.S. Did I leave anyone out of the loop? > > > > > > > > P.P.S. If you have logo ideas, sketches, complaints, accolades, please email > > > > them to this email address and I will collate them and let the board see them. > > > > Everyone's input is important. We need to hear how you feel about what the logo > > > > should express, what colors we may want to use for the site, type of layout. So > > > > give us your ideas. > > > > > > > > Don't worry about flaming me. It's been a cooler than normal summer and I wear > > > > virtual asbestos. > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > > > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 11:20:25 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010829182025.98360.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Please keep your complaints coming. Rod had mentioned something about the way the directories are set up now, and topic editors got sore about the new structure. This is all I know about this topic. Rod (or anyone?) do you have something to add? Is this something that we can fix, or do we have to live with this? If we can fix this, how do we go about doing it? Patrick --- Kenneth Applegate wrote: > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > Not to make a mountain out of a logo... > > > > Patrick got back to me and clarified that any changes to the logo > > are likely to be cosmetic not major changes. I (even) think > > that *tweaking* it is fine. But high-tech frippery - no thanks! > > > > He also suggests that *content* is on the way... > > And badly needed. I basically agree with Doug, and at risk of being too > "retro" might go even further. In many ways, I think that earlier > incarnations of the SCN web pages were more functional than the current > design. For instance, [personal gripe], it used to be possible to get to > the Science/Technical area about one level down and find our Seattle > Astronomical Society link. Now, it is buried another level or two down, in > with a lot of clutter (or resource links, if you prefer). This is not > necessarily progress! > > Ken Applegate > > > > > -- Doug > > > > ****************************************************************** > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > * is being shaped today. * > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > > Basically I have two comments -- > > > > > > > > The first is that I think the current logo is fine. Perhaps clean it > up a > > > > bit, fine-tune, etc. SCN currently has a logo that is distinctive and > has > > > > been identified with our efforts over the years. It has been used in > > > > presentations to large audiences both in the states and elsewhere and > has > > > > been shown in print in many venues.... > > > > > > Mostly thanks to Doug. I didn't like the logo and complained about it > > > a lot, but I think Doug's point is valid. It's been seen on t-shirts, > > > books, pamphlets, etc. It has identified SCN for many years and in > > > many circumstances, both locally and internationally. It is > > > definitely not slick nor corporate-looking. Which would be a criticism > > > in some circles - I think it's a mistake to deny SCN's grass roots. > > > > > > > > > > > The second is that this redesign is NOT what we need at the moment. If > > > > anybody has taken a look at our web page this YEAR they'll know what > I'm > > > > talking about.... > > > > > > Again, I agree. It's a lot of work to provide content that is of > interest > > > to the community. I used to find surprising stuff - it was a resource > > > for my Internet class at Miller Community Center and they appreciated > > > knowing about SCN and having a kind of gateway to community news. > > > Now there's no point in even mentioning SCN - they all want Hotmail > > > or Yahoo e-mail accounts. There's nothing to entice them into > > > exploring what's new on SCN... why go there? > > > > > > I think SCN could still provide valuable services to the community. > > > If not - the logo redesign is irrelevant. It's history. > > > > > > -- Lorraine > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > > > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > > > > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > > > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > > > * is being shaped today. * > > > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > This message was originally posted to the webmasters and webeditors > email > > > > > lists. JJ brought it to my attention that I should post the message > about the > > > > > site and logo redesign to this list. I'm new to the list as of 5 > minutes ago. > > > > > > > > > > SCN is planning on updating the site to make it look more > professional. > > > > > > > > > > This is the goal for the site redesign communicated to me by Ti > Locke: > > > > > > > > > > The goal is have the board vote on two or three possibilities for > both a logo > > > > > and a site redesign and then ask SCN users to comment. Meeting is > 9/13, with > > > > > comment period of say, two weeks...with new logo and site design > going up first > > > > > week in October. That would put Ti right on the timeline for both > > > > > grantwriting...and having web mail up and running. > > > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > SCN Web Team Coordinator/Webmaster > > > > > > > > > > P.S. Did I leave anyone out of the loop? > > > > > > > > > > P.P.S. If you have logo ideas, sketches, complaints, accolades, > please email > > > > > them to this email address and I will collate them and let the board > see them. > > > > > Everyone's input is important. We need to hear how you feel about > what the logo > > > > > should express, what colors we may want to use for the site, type of > layout. So > > > > > give us your ideas. > > > > > > > > > > Don't worry about flaming me. It's been a cooler than normal summer > and I wear > > > > > virtual asbestos. > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! > Messenger > > > > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * > * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * > * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? > By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ljbeedle at scn.org Wed Aug 29 11:35:39 2001 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: <20010829182025.98360.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As to the menu layout - it needs a lot of work. Rod mentioned finding the astromy club - well try finding the vintage telephone equipment museum. Or any of the other pages I edit - University Christian Church, Telephone Pioneers. We made an easy to get around menu very difficult. I was telephoned just last week by some folks trying to find the pioneer page - and they were amazed at the varity of groups we host - seen only by really careful navigation. The spiritual menu is so hard to find your way around I have trouble and I am the menu keeper. Lois Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 11:46:32 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010829184632.1381.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Lois, Why was the directory system changed? Is this an easy fix? That is, I assume, given the opportunity, you could simply create a new directory. That is, it wouldn't matter where the sites are in the Unix file directories. The location does not directly correlate to what is shown in the community directories. Patrick The telephone museum is really neat. I read about it in Seazine! Patrick --- Lois Beedle wrote: > As to the menu layout - it needs a lot of work. Rod mentioned finding the > astromy club - well try finding the vintage telephone equipment museum. > Or any of the other pages I edit - University Christian Church, Telephone > Pioneers. We made an easy to get around menu very difficult. > I was telephoned just last week by some folks trying to find the pioneer > page - and they were amazed at the varity of groups we host - seen only by > really careful navigation. > The spiritual menu is so hard to find your way around I have trouble and I > am the menu keeper. > Lois > > Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From scoth at scn.org Wed Aug 29 11:49:02 2001 From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on scn.org) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:49:02 -0700 Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign References: Message-ID: <007901c130bb$490eaa40$0c8cc5ce@scoth.whidbey.com> I've always been taught to keep the drill-downs down to 2-3 levels at most. This represents the number of clicks to get from a general site like SCN to a specific page for a group or organization. Naturally, a simple, clean design is good, too, and in our case _must_ accommodate text-only browsers. This means all the images need text tags (alt in the older html), page structure to support consistent tabbing through links on a page, no frames, etc. I think the logo is good as it. If anything, perhaps produce a version that is the same image but more "realistic", like maybe a sculpted-look version, or something like digital art. Though now that I look at it I see it looks pretty good on its own. Perhaps it could be used to drive site identity. I dunno. It's not as important as the website structure issues, such as they are. Others are closer to that than I am. Scot -- Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) Greenbank, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Wed Aug 29 13:31:01 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: <007901c130bb$490eaa40$0c8cc5ce@scoth.whidbey.com> Message-ID: more "realistic"... ?!? Perhaps like... http://www.scn.org/commnet/scnman.jpeg A friend of mine worked on that concept using an actual photo of Ranier and a program called Poser (or something like that). -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Scot Harkins on scn.org wrote: > I've always been taught to keep the drill-downs down to 2-3 > levels at most. This represents the number of clicks to get > from a general site like SCN to a specific page for a group > or organization. Naturally, a simple, clean design is good, > too, and in our case _must_ accommodate text-only browsers. > This means all the images need text tags (alt in the older > html), page structure to support consistent tabbing through > links on a page, no frames, etc. > > I think the logo is good as it. If anything, perhaps produce > a version that is the same image but more "realistic", like > maybe a sculpted-look version, or something like digital art. > Though now that I look at it I see it looks pretty good on > its own. Perhaps it could be used to drive site identity. I > dunno. It's not as important as the website structure issues, > such as they are. Others are closer to that than I am. > > > Scot > > -- > Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) > Greenbank, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington > scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir > scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Wed Aug 29 17:54:16 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: <20010829184632.1381.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > Lois, > > Why was the directory system changed? Patrick - I think Lois' complaint is about the organization of links ON THE SCN WEB PAGES, which has almost nothing to do with the underlying directory organization of the Unix html files. [That may be fouled up too, but is a separate problem]. Ken Applegate > > Is this an easy fix? That is, I assume, given the opportunity, you could simply > create a new directory. > > That is, it wouldn't matter where the sites are in the Unix file directories. > The location does not directly correlate to what is shown in the community > directories. > > Patrick > > The telephone museum is really neat. I read about it in Seazine! > > > > Patrick > --- Lois Beedle wrote: > > As to the menu layout - it needs a lot of work. Rod mentioned finding the > > astromy club - well try finding the vintage telephone equipment museum. > > Or any of the other pages I edit - University Christian Church, Telephone > > Pioneers. We made an easy to get around menu very difficult. > > I was telephoned just last week by some folks trying to find the pioneer > > page - and they were amazed at the varity of groups we host - seen only by > > really careful navigation. > > The spiritual menu is so hard to find your way around I have trouble and I > > am the menu keeper. > > Lois > > > > Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger > http://im.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 17:57:41 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010830005741.52221.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, I was wondering why the structure of the community pages was changed. People seemed happy with it before, and I have heard nothing but complaints about the current system. Complaints came from topic editors as well. I'll have to dig up old notes and see what happened. Patrick --- Kenneth Applegate wrote: > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > > > Lois, > > > > Why was the directory system changed? > > Patrick - I think Lois' complaint is about the organization of links ON > THE SCN WEB PAGES, which has almost nothing to do with the underlying > directory organization of the Unix html files. [That may be fouled up too, > but is a separate problem]. > > Ken Applegate > > > > > Is this an easy fix? That is, I assume, given the opportunity, you could > simply > > create a new directory. > > > > That is, it wouldn't matter where the sites are in the Unix file > directories. > > The location does not directly correlate to what is shown in the community > > directories. > > > > Patrick > > > > The telephone museum is really neat. I read about it in Seazine! > > > > > > > > Patrick > > --- Lois Beedle wrote: > > > As to the menu layout - it needs a lot of work. Rod mentioned finding > the > > > astromy club - well try finding the vintage telephone equipment museum. > > > Or any of the other pages I edit - University Christian Church, Telephone > > > Pioneers. We made an easy to get around menu very difficult. > > > I was telephoned just last week by some folks trying to find the pioneer > > > page - and they were amazed at the varity of groups we host - seen only > by > > > really careful navigation. > > > The spiritual menu is so hard to find your way around I have trouble and > I > > > am the menu keeper. > > > Lois > > > > > > Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger > > http://im.yahoo.com > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? > By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Wed Aug 29 19:01:17 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > ... it used to be possible to get to the Science/Technical > area about one level down and find our Seattle Astronomical > Society link. Now, it is buried another level or two down, in > with a lot of clutter (or resource links, if you prefer). This > is not necessarily progress! Ken, The Seattle Astronomical Society is featured in bold type near the top of the main Sci-Tech page, along with the other Sci-Tech sites hosted on SCN. It is also mentioned on a more detailed subject menu, as you've noted. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Wed Aug 29 19:07:28 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: <20010829182025.98360.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > If we can fix this, how do we go about doing it? Patrick and Ken, Ken's point about too much miscellany and clutter in the Sci-Tech section is a valid one. It is one of the few sections that was never focused on local sites, but instead featured lots of general sites with little local content. There's been some local content added to it more recently, but I think it would be very worthwhile to review the entire Sci-Tech section from the ground up, with a strong focus on local sites and presenting asd much as we can find about Seattle area research in medical, biotech, software and many other fields. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Wed Aug 29 19:06:48 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: accomodating text-only browsers In-Reply-To: <007901c130bb$490eaa40$0c8cc5ce@scoth.whidbey.com> Message-ID: We do, indeed, need to accomodate text-only browsers. However, that doesn't mean we can't include multiple methods of navigation, one of them more friendly to text-only, the other more useful with graphical browsers. See, for example, http://www.scn.org/crisis/education.html, where a very simple use of tables has allowed a set of graphical navigation buttons at the upper right. Note that when used with a browser that does not support tables, the text corresponding to these buttons ends up nicely at the bottom of the page, instead of the prominent location it receives in a graphical browser. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Scot Harkins on scn.org wrote: [SNIP] > Naturally, a simple, clean design is good, > too, and in our case _must_ accommodate text-only browsers. > This means all the images need text tags (alt in the older > html), page structure to support consistent tabbing through > links on a page, no frames, etc. [SNIP] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 19:09:47 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010830020947.49491.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Ken, Would you or someone you know be interested in reviewing exactly what needs to be fixed and possibly even rebuild it? Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > > If we can fix this, how do we go about doing it? > > Patrick and Ken, > > Ken's point about too much miscellany and clutter in the > Sci-Tech section is a valid one. It is one of the few sections > that was never focused on local sites, but instead featured lots > of general sites with little local content. There's been some > local content added to it more recently, but I think it would be > very worthwhile to review the entire Sci-Tech section from the > ground up, with a strong focus on local sites and presenting asd > much as we can find about Seattle area research in medical, > biotech, software and many other fields. > > Rod Clark > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ljbeedle at scn.org Wed Aug 29 19:11:02 2001 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: <20010829184632.1381.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Why was the directory system changed? I have no idea - I just muddle along doing my menu updates and ip updates. All of a sudden it was changed. >Is this an easy fix? That is, I assume, given the opportunity, you could simply create a new directory. I see two seperate problems. First finding the providers via the menu. A multi click task for most. Those we provide space for should be easy to find. Second, as the spiritual editor I find the structure within the spiritual menu to be difficult at best. I have to go to a sub directory to edit churches for instance. I can see no reason for the sub directory at all. >That is, it wouldn't matter where the sites are in the Unix file directories. Are you speaking of physical location or software location? It doesn't matter to me where anything is stored as long as it can be found. >The location does not directly correlate to what is shown in the community directories. Lois Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 19:32:37 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010830023237.51450.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Can we get away with putting all links in each Community on one page? Unless it is a Community page that is so big and fractured that it need/make sense to be broken into two or three sections. Who's to keep topic editors from changing this in each Community? Except that we are short on topic editors... Patrick --- Lois Beedle wrote: > >Why was the directory system changed? > I have no idea - I just muddle along doing my menu updates and ip updates. > All of a sudden it was changed. > > >Is this an easy fix? That is, I assume, given the opportunity, you could > simply create a new directory. > > I see two seperate problems. First finding the providers via the menu. A > multi click task for most. Those we provide space for should be easy to > find. Second, as the spiritual editor I find the structure within the > spiritual menu to be difficult at best. I have to go to a sub directory > to edit churches for instance. I can see no reason for the sub directory > at all. > > >That is, it wouldn't matter where the sites are in the Unix file > directories. > > Are you speaking of physical location or software location? It doesn't > matter to me where anything is stored as long as it can be found. > > >The location does not directly correlate to what is shown in the > community directories. > > Lois > > > Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ljbeedle at scn.org Wed Aug 29 19:45:59 2001 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: <20010830023237.51450.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > Can we get away with putting all links in each Community on one page? Unless it > is a Community page that is so big and fractured that it need/make sense to be > broken into two or three sections. You certainly can't put everything I have in spiritual on one page but you could make it a lot less painful to find things. > > Who's to keep topic editors from changing this in each Community? Except that > we are short on topic editors... As a topic editor I can tell you that I am honest and can be trusted to only change the things I have been told are within my rights as editor to change. I believe I could have changed it to the way I would like to see it a long time ago - but it's not within my bounds so I haven't. And why not have the topic editors change the menu - then it would be the way that they feel is best for their topic - given some guidelines. We aren't really stupid folks. Lois > > Patrick > > > --- Lois Beedle wrote: > > >Why was the directory system changed? > > I have no idea - I just muddle along doing my menu updates and ip updates. > > All of a sudden it was changed. > > > > >Is this an easy fix? That is, I assume, given the opportunity, you could > > simply create a new directory. > > > > I see two seperate problems. First finding the providers via the menu. A > > multi click task for most. Those we provide space for should be easy to > > find. Second, as the spiritual editor I find the structure within the > > spiritual menu to be difficult at best. I have to go to a sub directory > > to edit churches for instance. I can see no reason for the sub directory > > at all. > > > > >That is, it wouldn't matter where the sites are in the Unix file > > directories. > > > > Are you speaking of physical location or software location? It doesn't > > matter to me where anything is stored as long as it can be found. > > > > >The location does not directly correlate to what is shown in the > > community directories. > > > > Lois > > > > > > Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger > http://im.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Aug 29 20:26:45 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010830032645.83129.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Lois, I'll check with Steve and JJ on this. Before things were totally out of control. However, I don't agree with over-correcting and going totally anal about permissions. I think a topic editor should be able to have control over their directory/Community and go from there. Patrick --- Lois Beedle wrote: > > > > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > > > Can we get away with putting all links in each Community on one page? > Unless it > > is a Community page that is so big and fractured that it need/make sense to > be > > broken into two or three sections. > > You certainly can't put everything I have in spiritual on one page but you > could make it a lot less painful to find things. > > > > Who's to keep topic editors from changing this in each Community? Except > that > > we are short on topic editors... > > As a topic editor I can tell you that I am honest and can be trusted to > only change the things I have been told are within my rights as editor to > change. > I believe I could have changed it to the way I would like to see it a long > time ago - but it's not within my bounds so I haven't. > And why not have the topic editors change the menu - then it would be the > way that they feel is best for their topic - given some guidelines. > We aren't really stupid folks. > > Lois > > > > Patrick > > > > > > --- Lois Beedle wrote: > > > >Why was the directory system changed? > > > I have no idea - I just muddle along doing my menu updates and ip > updates. > > > All of a sudden it was changed. > > > > > > >Is this an easy fix? That is, I assume, given the opportunity, you could > > > simply create a new directory. > > > > > > I see two seperate problems. First finding the providers via the menu. > A > > > multi click task for most. Those we provide space for should be easy to > > > find. Second, as the spiritual editor I find the structure within the > > > spiritual menu to be difficult at best. I have to go to a sub directory > > > to edit churches for instance. I can see no reason for the sub directory > > > at all. > > > > > > >That is, it wouldn't matter where the sites are in the Unix file > > > directories. > > > > > > Are you speaking of physical location or software location? It doesn't > > > matter to me where anything is stored as long as it can be found. > > > > > > >The location does not directly correlate to what is shown in the > > > community directories. > > > > > > Lois > > > > > > > > > Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger > > http://im.yahoo.com > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Wed Aug 29 20:33:42 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > As to the menu layout - it needs a lot of work. Rod mentioned finding the > astromy club - well try finding the vintage telephone equipment museum. > Or any of the other pages I edit - University Christian Church, Telephone > Pioneers. We made an easy to get around menu very difficult. Lois, The Vintage Telephone Equipment Museum is featured in bold type near the top of the main Science and technology menu, along with the other science and technology sites hosted on SCN. The University Christian Church is featured in bold type near the top of the main Spirituality menu, along with the other spirituality sites hosted on SCN. The Telephone Pioneers, as a service club, are similarly listed near the top of the main Civic menu. But they could also be listed on one or two other menus if you'd like to choose which menus those would be. The 1996-1999 site had one page per major subject area. So each page grew very long. A viewer couldn't tell what headings the page contained by glancing at the top of the page, as now. Users had to read an entire lengthy page from top to bottom, before they even knew what headings were on it. If they guessed wrong about what was on the page, then it was off to the next menu, to similarly scour it from top to bottom before understanding even the outlines of what was on it. In short, the user comments about that site were more serious after about mid-1999 or so, by which time the pages had grown so long, than your comments about the current site. A tree structured site, similar in layout to Yahoo, the Open Directory and others, does present a more complicated structure than our former design that had one enormously long page per subject. People have trouble finding things in those directories too, even with generally good subject categorization, which generally speaking we do have. That's why they each have prominent search functions, as does SCN. The first two SCN Web sites (the original site whose front page is preserved in the 1995 Rand Corporation report, and Tom Sparks' 1995 black-background site) were little more than this: http://www.scn.org/community/sites.html and a few disclaimer pages and a brief FAQ and user registration form, etc. You can still find that IP list on SCN, by clicking the Community button or the Community sidebar link on any page on the site. It's the first link on the body of the main Community menu page, "Sites Hosted on SCN - Alphabetical List." We've come a lot further than that since then, and as a result we do have the continuing problem of how to make everything that's valuable on SCN easily findable on a large site. That's not such a bad problem to have, as problems go, and the Community subject areas on SCN are respectably organized compared to other such sites. For comparison, you might want to look at some of the larger community network sites like our bigger neighbor to the south in Oregon, EFN.org. But it's the content of SCN's community sections that makes SCN stand out among community networks. We have been a great deal friendlier to controversial and officially frowned-upon grassroots sites that are not wanted on, say, the City of Seattle site and that would be excluded from many community networks elsewhere in the country that are run by government agencies or as partnerships with government or AT&T or other such interests. Gripe as much as you like about SCN, but it's not easy to find another site that has as consistently upheld community networking's ideals as SCN has. Or as it did until the recent wave of aviodance of controversy (in my view, basically the avoidance of democracy) on the home page, wrapped in a guise of "professionalism," and other such recent directions that SCN's leadershp has gone in. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Wed Aug 29 23:34:29 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > As a topic editor I can tell you that I am honest and can be trusted to > only change the things I have been told are within my rights as editor to > change. > I believe I could have changed it to the way I would like to see it a long > time ago - but it's not within my bounds so I haven't. > And why not have the topic editors change the menu - then it would be the > way that they feel is best for their topic - given some guidelines. > We aren't really stupid folks. Lois, Let me explain some of the things that I've been concerned about in the Spirituality section, since apparently I've been the only editor who has taken an interest in all of the Community sections at one time or another, and this issue spilled over into some other menus sometimes too. For a few years I watched as the Spirituality menu included almost entirely mainstream white Christian churches. Finally, after realizing that that probably wasn't ever going to change by itself, I began contributing links to some black churches, some Islamic sites, a few Eastern Orthodox and Hindu sites and some more Jewish links than the few we'd had, and so on. In all this recent heated discussion and concern about how hard it is to navigate the menus (and it really isn't as hard as all that) so far we've entirely avoided talking about the more important issues of why we basically didn't even acknowledge on the previous site's Spirituality menu that local black churches existed, or that Islamic people existed in the Seattle area, and so on. As an editor, I was and still am to some degree concerned about the extent and fairness of our treatment of these and other "lesser" peoples and religious beliefs on our menus, even after SCN improved a lot in that respect after the move to our new tree structured menu system. At the time, I didn't make a big issue of why I wanted to add them to the Spiritality menus, but maybe leaving the various editors' proclivities so unexamined as you suggest isn't such a wonderful idea as you think it is. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Wed Aug 29 23:57:45 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > ... it used to be possible to get to the Science/Technical > > area about one level down and find our Seattle Astronomical > > Society link. Now, it is buried another level or two down, in > > with a lot of clutter (or resource links, if you prefer). This > > is not necessarily progress! > > Ken, > > The Seattle Astronomical Society is featured in bold type > near the top of the main Sci-Tech page, along with the other > Sci-Tech sites hosted on SCN. It is also mentioned on a more > detailed subject menu, as you've noted. > > Rod Clark Sorry Rod, but that is incorrect. At the top of the main Sci-Tech page there is an Astronomy link in boldface type. Following that down to a third level, the things that are in large boldface are Topic headings Instruments, Observing, and Science for in-page jumps. Since the Instruments section has only 3 entries, the Observing section shows on the page, and the Seattle Asronomical Society barely makes it at the bottom - YES! even in boldface! However, if any of the topic lists were longer, SAS would be a 4th click away from the SCN home page. And look at the links on that page(see below). Aside from the rather odd choice of Topic headings, it is just a hodgepodge. While the random, more or less astronomical science links are interesting, I question whether they should be mixed in with a list of local astronomical organizations. The two UW items, Astrobiology program and Project Astro program are both local links that people might really want to locate - but they get lost in a list of "cool astro sites". I think priorty on the SCN community pages should be given first to Info Providers ON SCN that fall under a given Community heading like Sci-Tech, secondly to other related local organizations, and last [maybe] to related general links. Furthermore, that division should be reflected in the page layout, with headings like "Sci-Tech web sites hosted on SCN", "Related Local Organizations", and "Other Links of Interest". I'm using the SCN Sci-Tech and Astronomy pages as an example, but similar problems exist with most of the other Community page areas. I _used_ to tell people they could just go to the SCN Community pages and find the astronomy club under SCi-Tech. I would never do that now - the navigation is too complex, so I just give them our own URL. Ken Applegate ========================================= [from http://www.scn.org/tech/astro.html] INSTRUMENTS Seattle Sundial Trail UW Physics-Astronomy Sundial OBSERVING Battle Point Astronomical Association Dark Skies Northwest Seattle Astronomical Society SCIENCE NASA JPL Space Calendar Scale Model of the Solar System The Search for Extrasolar Planets SETI Institute Structure and Evolution of the Universe (NASA) Sunspots and the Solar Cycle Superstrings - universal theory of all fundamental interactions UW Astrobiology Program UW: Project ASTRO/Seattle View the Earth from Space Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! Seattle Sundial Trail * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Thu Aug 30 00:03:28 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: <20010830020947.49491.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > Ken, > > Would you or someone you know be interested in reviewing exactly what > needs to be fixed and possibly even rebuild it? Possibly review for the Sci-Tech area. Rebuild, no. I already have a full plate working on stuff for the SCN OPS committee. Ken > > Patrick > > --- Rod Clark wrote: > > > If we can fix this, how do we go about doing it? > > > > Patrick and Ken, > > > > Ken's point about too much miscellany and clutter in the > > Sci-Tech section is a valid one. It is one of the few sections > > that was never focused on local sites, but instead featured lots > > of general sites with little local content. There's been some > > local content added to it more recently, but I think it would be > > very worthwhile to review the entire Sci-Tech section from the > > ground up, with a strong focus on local sites and presenting asd > > much as we can find about Seattle area research in medical, > > biotech, software and many other fields. > > > > Rod Clark > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger > http://im.yahoo.com > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Thu Aug 30 00:11:27 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: <20010830023237.51450.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > Can we get away with putting all links in each Community on one page? Unless it > is a Community page that is so big and fractured that it need/make sense to be > broken into two or three sections. That is pretty much the way the original SCN Community pages were set up. They consisted mainly of links to community organizations that had web sites on SCN or were local. Not much in the way of links to informational web sites. I think it is valid, and a community service to have the informational links, BUT perhaps they should be collected under another Resources area, with subdivisions paralleling the Community pages. Ken > > Who's to keep topic editors from changing this in each Community? Except that > we are short on topic editors... > > Patrick > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Thu Aug 30 00:37:03 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > As to the menu layout - it needs a lot of work. Rod mentioned finding the > > astromy club - well try finding the vintage telephone equipment museum. > > Or any of the other pages I edit - University Christian Church, Telephone > > Pioneers. We made an easy to get around menu very difficult. Rod - Are we _really_ on the same page? :>) I mean that literally. If you are referring to the pages: http://www.scn.org/tech/ http://www.scn.org/spiritual/ http://www.scn.org/civic/ then your statements to Lois are simply NOT correct. The only things showing at the top of those pages are general subtopic headings. To find the specific links to the organizations that you mention, you have to scroll the pages. Ken > > Lois, > > The Vintage Telephone Equipment Museum is featured in bold > type near the top of the main Science and technology menu, along > with the other science and technology sites hosted on SCN. > > The University Christian Church is featured in bold type near > the top of the main Spirituality menu, along with the other > spirituality sites hosted on SCN. > > The Telephone Pioneers, as a service club, are similarly > listed near the top of the main Civic menu. But they could also > be listed on one or two other menus if you'd like to choose > which menus those would be. > > The 1996-1999 site had one page per major subject area. So > each page grew very long. A viewer couldn't tell what headings > the page contained by glancing at the top of the page, as now. > Users had to read an entire lengthy page from top to bottom, > before they even knew what headings were on it. If they guessed > wrong about what was on the page, then it was off to the next > menu, to similarly scour it from top to bottom before > understanding even the outlines of what was on it. In short, the > user comments about that site were more serious after about > mid-1999 or so, by which time the pages had grown so long, than > your comments about the current site. > > A tree structured site, similar in layout to Yahoo, the Open > Directory and others, does present a more complicated structure > than our former design that had one enormously long page per > subject. People have trouble finding things in those directories > too, even with generally good subject categorization, which > generally speaking we do have. That's why they each have > prominent search functions, as does SCN. > > The first two SCN Web sites (the original site whose front > page is preserved in the 1995 Rand Corporation report, and Tom > Sparks' 1995 black-background site) were little more than this: > > http://www.scn.org/community/sites.html > > and a few disclaimer pages and a brief FAQ and user registration > form, etc. > > You can still find that IP list on SCN, by clicking the > Community button or the Community sidebar link on any page on > the site. It's the first link on the body of the main Community > menu page, "Sites Hosted on SCN - Alphabetical List." > > We've come a lot further than that since then, and as a > result we do have the continuing problem of how to make > everything that's valuable on SCN easily findable on a large > site. That's not such a bad problem to have, as problems go, and > the Community subject areas on SCN are respectably organized > compared to other such sites. For comparison, you might want to > look at some of the larger community network sites like our > bigger neighbor to the south in Oregon, EFN.org. > > But it's the content of SCN's community sections that makes > SCN stand out among community networks. We have been a great > deal friendlier to controversial and officially frowned-upon > grassroots sites that are not wanted on, say, the City of > Seattle site and that would be excluded from many community > networks elsewhere in the country that are run by government > agencies or as partnerships with government or AT&T or other > such interests. Gripe as much as you like about SCN, but it's > not easy to find another site that has as consistently upheld > community networking's ideals as SCN has. Or as it did until the > recent wave of aviodance of controversy (in my view, basically > the avoidance of democracy) on the home page, wrapped in a guise > of "professionalism," and other such recent directions that > SCN's leadershp has gone in. > > Rod Clark > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Thu Aug 30 00:39:06 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > If we can fix this, how do we go about doing it? > > Patrick and Ken, > > Ken's point about too much miscellany and clutter in the > Sci-Tech section is a valid one. It is one of the few sections > that was never focused on local sites, but instead featured lots > of general sites with little local content. There's been some > local content added to it more recently, but I think it would be > very worthwhile to review the entire Sci-Tech section from the > ground up, with a strong focus on local sites and presenting asd > much as we can find about Seattle area research in medical, > biotech, software and many other fields. > > Rod Clark > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Thu Aug 30 00:52:49 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > As a topic editor I can tell you that I am honest and can be trusted to > > only change the things I have been told are within my rights as editor to > > change. > > I believe I could have changed it to the way I would like to see it a long > > time ago - but it's not within my bounds so I haven't. > > And why not have the topic editors change the menu - then it would be the > > way that they feel is best for their topic - given some guidelines. > > We aren't really stupid folks. > > Lois, > > Let me explain some of the things that I've been concerned > about in the Spirituality section, since apparently I've been > the only editor who has taken an interest in all of the > Community sections at one time or another, and this issue > spilled over into some other menus sometimes too. > > For a few years I watched as the Spirituality menu included > almost entirely mainstream white Christian churches. Finally, > after realizing that that probably wasn't ever going to change > by itself, I began contributing links to some black churches, > some Islamic sites, a few Eastern Orthodox and Hindu sites and > some more Jewish links than the few we'd had, and so on. > OK, this gets into the area of value judgements, and who gets to make decsions for overall inclusion/exclusion of things that go on the SCN pages. Rod, you have a good point about making the Spirituality page more inclusive. BUT, did you ever, ever think of _discussing_ these ideas with Lois, as Topic Editor, rather than just going ahead and making the additions you thought should be there? Ken [...] Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Thu Aug 30 07:19:04 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 07:19:04 -0700 Subject: SCN: Security Message-ID: <3B8DE8E8.16183.D41C8CA@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ============================= Every security researcher and every Net user who happens to find a security flaw is vulnerable. The witness stand could only be a mouse-click away. (Damien Cave, Salon)---Brian K. West simply wanted to see how his company's advertisement would look in the online edition of the Poteau Daily News & Sun, his local Oklahoma newspaper. But while trying to create a mockup, he discovered a security flaw that let him put the ad on the actual home page of the newspaper. No password or permission was required. In fact, anyone with Microsoft's FrontPage -- a Web site development program used to create the newspaper's Web pages -- could go in and redesign at will, wreaking havoc on the home page's structure, color and text. West, a 24-year-old sales and support employee of a nearby Internet service provider, didn't put his ad on the page or make any of these changes. He downloaded some files, apparently to verify the hole, then called the newspaper's editor in chief to let him know that his Web site wasn't secure -- that anyone could get in and "edit your stories." But instead of thanking him, the suspicious editor contacted the police, setting in motion a chain of events that would lead to an 18- month FBI investigation and an invitation to appear before a grand jury Sept. 5. In the community of hackers, the details outlined above could be expected to result in West's immediate treatment as a hero, a well- meaning altruist trapped by an undiscriminating justice system. Protests could have been scheduled, money raised. Like the recently indicted Russian programmer Dmitry Sklyarov, accused of illegally distributing code that unlocks electronic books, West might have become a poster child for reforms to laws that, according to critics, treat security research as a crime rather than a virtuous act of science. But even though charges have not yet been filed, West is not getting the hacker hero treatment. The reason? According to court documents West didn't just warn the Poteau Daily News about the hole; among the items he downloaded were files containing source code and passwords for the proprietary software that the newspaper's editors used to post stories from remote locations. It was only a beta version, and it's not clear whether West knew what he was downloading, but because the newspaper bought the software from an Internet service provider that was a competitor to West's company, the act itself did much to tarnish West's "good Samaritan" image. So, instead of becoming an icon, a victim and a martyr, he's instead a lightning rod for debate. Hundreds of people have written to the U.S. attorney in charge of the case since Aug. 17, when an abbreviated version of West's story appeared on the geek news site LinuxFreak.org. And while the prosecutor and West's lawyers exchange responses to the public outcry -- the latest volley appeared last Friday -- heavyweights in the world of security don't know what to make of West's actions. Some, like Richard M. Smith, CTO of the Privacy Foundation, argue that West went too far, while others argue that West "is just a guy who found a flaw and tried to fix it," as cryptography expert Bruce Schneier puts it. Even if he poked around a bit, these defenders say, he shouldn't be treated like a criminal. "The punishment doesn't fit the crime," Schneier says. The debate itself is not new. It's been almost 20 years since hackers, geeks and lawmakers first started struggling with the question of how software vulnerabilities should be handled. Hackers -- as distinguished from crackers, who break and enter computer systems for purposes of profit or destruction -- have long argued that by pointing out security holes in software they are doing a public service. The companies who are the recipients of hacker explorations, and the vendors of software that is found to be vulnerable, often disagree, seeing hacker activity as illegal trespassing or worse. It's a tension that is at the core of hacker life; one could even argue that the "public service" theory is, at least in part, a rationalization aimed at justifying the results of hacker curiosity. But even though the debate is old, the stakes keep rising. The laws as currently written are unfriendly to "unauthorized access," regardless of what the intent is. The passage of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) in 1998, which, among other things, made it illegal to do so much as reveal how copyright controls can be circumvented, has also upped the ante for those who like tinkering with other people's software. But while high-profile cases such as Sklyarov's and the DeCSS lawsuit wend their way through the courts, few experts in the technology community have offered clear alternatives that can be applied in the real world. There's still not an accepted set of guidelines for how people like West should proceed -- and that's "a serious problem," says Jennifer Granick, a San Francisco attorney who regularly defends hackers. Until consensus is reached -- which won't be easy, she says -- West's mistakes are destined to be repeated. Every security researcher and every Net user who happens to find a security flaw is vulnerable. The witness stand could only be a mouse-click away. Today's discussion of Internet security can be traced at least as far back as Robert Tappan Morris. In 1988, the 23-year-old doctoral student at Cornell released a 99-line program that ate its way through the Internet, propagating uncontrollably and slowing data transmission across the network nearly to a halt. In response to the unexpected shock, DARPA, (the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency), a federal agency that oversaw the Net, formed a group of experts who could coordinate responses to worms like Morris'. The group soon called itself CERT -- for Computer Emergency Response Team -- and the plan it came up with seemed simple. People were supposed to send information on vulnerabilities to the group; CERT would then verify that the hole existed and alert the vendor. Publishing only occurred once the vendor plugged the hole. CERT still maintains the procedure, but after a few years, people started to rebel. "There were three main complaints," writes Schneier in an essay on the issue of publicizing vulnerabilities. "First, CERT got a lot of vulnerabilities reported to it, and there were complaints about CERT being slow in verifying them. Second, the vendors were slow about fixing the vulnerabilities once CERT told them. And third, CERT was slow about publishing reports even after the fixes were implemented." Hackers who spotted vulnerabilities weren't the only ones unhappy with CERT's lack of speed. The larger community of computer scientists and, in particular, systems administrators and security specialists entrusted with the responsibility of keeping networks safe and reliable, also chafed at the ponderous pace. By the time a vendor plugged a hole in its software, a great deal of mischief could already have occurred. Frustration with CERT led to what's now called "the full-disclosure movement" -- based on the hacker-friendly philosophy that more information is always better. Scott Chasin led the way, creating a mailing list in 1993 called Bugtraq that promised to publish vulnerabilities regardless of vendor response. Bugtraq's policies led to friction with vendors of software. Not only do software companies detest the bad publicity that is associated with news reports announcing serious problems with the software, but they are also wont to argue that publicizing a breach before a fix is available is tantamount to inviting a horde of juvenile delinquents to rummage through your unlocked home. But "the environment at that time was such that vendors weren't making any patches," says Elias Levy, an early Bugtraq subscriber who has moderated the list since 1996. "So the focus was on how to fix software that companies weren't fixing." Only a few hundred people signed up at first. In 1996, only 2,000 people subscribed. But the messy dangers of security research hit home while Bugtraq was just getting started. In 1993, Randal Schwartz, an independent contractor working for Intel, decided to run a program that tested the vulnerability of passwords on the company's network. The program (called Crack) found 48 "weak" passwords (words that would be easy to guess) but Schwartz was hardly rewarded for his vigilance. Instead, he became the target of a criminal investigation, at the direct request of his own employer. An indictment came down in 1994 and in 1995, an Oregon judge sentenced him to 480 hours of community service, five years of probation, 90 days in jail and $68,471.45 in restitution. The Oregon Court of Appeals eventually suspended the jail time and reversed the restitution order, but upheld all the convictions. "I'm now a triple felon for merely wanting to help my main client of five years, by running a simple tool to gather evidence that another group within the company was not providing the minimum company- mandated standard level of protection," Schwartz says. "This is crazy. All I wanted to do was help." Then, Internet mania struck. With millions coming online, dot-coms appearing out of thin air and Web-based services like Hotmail growing exponentially, the security environment radically changed. More holes appeared and more people found them. Today, Bugtraq counts 46,000 subscribers, many of them journalists who spread news of vulnerabilities to millions. The expanded attention at Bugtraq and other places on the Net has fueled the already heated debate. The discussion that had once taken place in the equivalent of a small theater has now moved into a cacophonous coliseum. Some maintain that those who exploit a vulnerability in order to prove that it exists are violating property rights. Others follow CERT's moderate stance, arguing that testing a hole was fine as long as the tester told the vendor about the hole and kept the vulnerability private. At the other end of the spectrum sit those who take a more libertarian line. They argue that ferreting out vulnerabilities -- by any means possible -- is the best way to keep them from forming in the future. Some diehards even declare that high-profile crackers like Kevin Mitnick -- the notorious computer expert who spent five years in jail for illegally accessing corporate networks -- should be lauded as heroes, cyber-investigators who showed the world how fragile networks could be. "These problems are complex and ambiguous," says Smith of the Privacy Foundation. "It's an extremely difficult issue," adds Schneier, echoing the sentiments of other security experts. "The more I look at it, the harder it seems to get." West's case sidesteps a few of these difficulties. He didn't attempt to publish the vulnerability at the Poteau Daily News, and, according to his lawyer, didn't intentionally copy valuable security software as Mitnick did. But his case is powerfully relevant. Experts say that his actions at the Poteau site -- from finding the hole to downloading a competitor's publishing software and a file which had the passwords and log-ins that offered access to that software -- reignite many of the difficult questions that the technology community and courts are still trying to answer. Does everyone have a right to look under the hood of every product they buy, of every Web site they can access? Once someone finds a possible vulnerability, must he or she inform whatever company might be affected by it? If someone exploits a vulnerability in order to verify that it exists, should the access be considered criminal, or does it depend on what is gained through the act of exploitation? Or, even more subjectively, does it depend on the intent of the hacker? Even before West discovered the Poteau Daily News flaw, he had some experience with such queries. A few months prior, he noticed that his bank's online services included his account number in the URL, so by plugging in other numbers, he could (and allegedly did) access other peoples' accounts. He never changed these accounts, and told the bank about the flaw. They fixed it, without calling the cops. West could have been prosecuted for his bank discovery too, just as was Randal Schwartz. The courts haven't given any clear answers to the burning questions surrounding computer access, says lawyer Granick. Although other people have found holes and been prosecuted for accessing private files, and in some cases for extortion -- charges that arise when people demand money for information on how to patch a given hole -- few of these cases went to trial. Most were settled without a judge's decision. There are exceptions, such as the DeCSS case, in which the publisher of the magazine 2600 was enjoined from distributing code that decrypts DVDs. But for the most part, the courts haven't clarified the laws surrounding security, so enforcement tends to be subjective. "The whole concept of 'unauthorized access' is in question," Granick says. "There isn't enough case law to go on." So, in the absence of legal authority, can the ambiguities be eliminated, or at least diminished? Granick, Smith, Levy and other security experts suggest that a formal, accepted set of guidelines -- voted on and supported by the security industry -- would improve the situation. Granick argues that the resulting code should treat the Internet as an entity unto itself, rather than some kind of electronic home. "The problem lies with the notion of 'went in,'" she says. "There's a barrier to going into a house or store that doesn't make sense in a computer context. If you type something in and see something you're not supposed to see, it's not the same as walking into someone's house. It's more like walking by a window without the shades being drawn." Schwartz holds to a similar line. "There must be safe harbor for the people trying to help," he says, because otherwise holes will proliferate. When the law doesn't allow researchers the freedom to find and plug holes, bugs will go unreported; fear will keep the helpful away, leaving room for the intentionally malicious. "Everyone loses," he says. "And as the law currently stands, it's the whistleblowers (like me) that stand to lose the most." But others disagree with Granick's logic. Tony Morgan, co-owner of Cyberlink, the ISP that wrote the software West copied, argues that West didn't just see the vulnerability. "He exploited it," Morgan says. "Finding the hole wasn't wrong; I back the hackers and crackers on that. The illegal part is when someone takes or destroys something. We feel that [in West's case] the line was crossed." And Morgan -- who claims the software West downloaded could be sold for about $5,000 -- isn't the only one arguing that computers should be treated like offline property. "If you screw with a service [as opposed to a product], you're screwing with someone's property," says Levy of Bugtraq. "Most people who have been doing security research for a while wouldn't have done what Brian did. Most people would know that the first thing you should do is get a waiver to verify the vulnerability." On the other hand, the DMCA is also problematic precisely because it treats digital content as its own unique animal. While traditional copyright law allows people to, say, copy a book for a school project, the DMCA makes no room for such fair uses of digital content. Simply showing people how to unlock an electronic book, as Sklyarov is now discovering, becomes cause for imprisonment. People already think the Internet and other new technologies are more unique than they actually are, says Schneier. And because the general public errs on the side of fear rather than respect, he says "the law needs to be technologically neutral." David Touretzky, a computer science professor at Carnegie Mellon who testified at the DeCSS trial, believes that new technologies should be treated like your local bank. "It's a place of business, open to the public," he says. "But not every inch is open to the public. Suppose I go wandering down the hall and walk into some guy's private office and walk over to the desk and take a look at the papers lying out in plain view. Am I guilty of breaking and entering? No. Am I trespassing? Well, yeah, but the building was open the public." At this point, because he would be somewhere he wasn't supposed to be, "the bank would be right to ask me to leave, maybe even tell me never to come back again," he says. "But having me arrested for wandering into an office? Nah. That would be overkill." Still, with so many ideas swirling about, can a coherent set of guidelines ever form? At least one security expert -- Chris Wysopal, head of research and development at the security firm @Stake -- is making the attempt. But Wysopal, a former hacker who's known online as "Weld Pond," has just begun gathering industry input. Even though the Net would be better off "with a set of moral codes," says Schneier, the community probably won't come up with anything useful anytime soon. "The only way to do it is through case law," he says. "That's how we did it with phones and wiretaps, and that's how it will happen here." West should not be punished harshly for his mistakes, he says, but regardless, the case may actually improve the present security environment. The only problem, he adds, is that the law moves slowly. "It will take years to figure this out," Schneier says. "When the legal system hits Internet time, the results are a mess." Brian West probably agrees. Copyright 2001 Salon.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Thu Aug 30 09:50:09 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:50:09 -0700 Subject: SCN: Open source Message-ID: <3B8E0C51.5075.DCC2093@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ========================= (Paul Festa, ZDNet)---Governments around the world have found a new rallying cry--"Software libre!"--and Microsoft is working overtime to quell it. A recent global wave of legislation is compelling government agencies, and in some cases government-owned companies, to use open-source or free software unless proprietary software is the only feasible option. This legal movement, earliest and most pronounced in Brazil, but also showing signs of catching on elsewhere in Latin America, Europe and Asia, is finding ready converts as governments struggle to close sometimes vast digital divides with limited information- technology budgets. So far, there is no evidence that similar legislation is being considered anywhere in the United States, experts said. Open-source and free software represent a budget-priced alternative to Microsoft's Windows operating system and applications that can cost thousands of dollars a month to license. In addition, access to underlying source code means governments and businesses can fix problems or modify software to work more effectively. But behind the obvious reasons for the move to open-source and free software are more subtle issues. One of the overriding drivers behind legislation, experts said, appears to be a desire to break free of the United States' lock on the global software market. Laws requiring the use of free or open-source software give governments "free rein to do what they want, how they want and when they want it," said IDC analyst Dan Kusnetzky. "It's not just the United States government they're worried about but a single vendor exercising so much power over their government operations. A government would not like to be under so much influence from any supplier." In Europe, where numerous bills and resolutions have been introduced, local, state and federal governments spent $7.8 billion on software in 2000. In Brazil, governments spent a mere $200 million the same year, an indication of how little the country has to spend on software and why free or low-priced software holds such powerful appeal. Proponents of the legislation use the term "software libre" to describe software that is not only free of licensing fees but whose development is not controlled by a single company. Theoretically, that single company could be any one of a number of software providers. In reality, most of the legislation in Europe, Asia and Latin America is specifically targeted at gaining freedom from Microsoft and its perceived lock on the commercial software business. In a motion passed by the city government of Florence, Italy, in June, legislators warned that continued use of proprietary software was leading to "the computer science subjection of the Italian state to Microsoft." Microsoft has matched or exceeded this level of rhetoric with its comments on open-source software, characterizing it variously as "a cancer," "an intellectual property destroyer" and--appropriately enough in the context of the global wave of open-source-only law-- "un-American." In response to the new laws, Microsoft summoned arguments similar to those it has made in its protracted antitrust fight with the U.S. government. "Regarding this specific (legal) trend, we don't believe that governments should pick winners and losers," said Microsoft spokesman Ricardo Adame. "Technology should compete on its merits in a free market. Let the government look at all the options and then make a decision, so they can say, 'We may have to pay for this software, but it's the best solution for our specific needs.'" Since the laws are so new, and so few have actually passed, it's unclear what financial effect they might have on Microsoft. The company sold more than $5 billion worth of software in Europe, the Middle East and Africa and more than $2.5 billion worth of products in Asia during fiscal 2001. Microsoft does not break out Latin American sales. But the trend could be troubling to the software giant, which has eyed the proliferation of open-source software nervously. Microsoft isn't taking the new legal assault sitting down. Adame said that through regional trade associations, the company had lobbied the Brazilian government against adopting laws mandating open source. "We want to participate in any discussions on industry policy all over the world," said Adame. "We are aware of initiatives in Brazil and have expressed our concerns to different government officials. We're supporting the position that the decision by government to acquire technology should be based on the benefits and value of that technology and not on limiting those possibilities." Governments--especially those of poorer nations with less money to spend on information technology--are eager to reap the cost savings of using free software. But the rhetoric behind the movement to enact these laws is at times ideological and nationalistic, with legislators urging their colleagues to avoid dependence on software whose export is legally controlled by the United States and whose development and licensing is controlled by this country's dominant software industry. "Many administrations are still using communication standards tightly linked to a single private provider, which forces citizens and public organizations to become customers of the same provider and, in the end, significantly stimulates abuses of dominant position in the market," reads the preamble to one French bill under consideration. "Public administrations of the state often use software which they cannot access the source code; this situation makes it impossible to fix bugs that the software publisher refuses to fix or to check that there is no security trap in strategic software," the preamble continues. "Public administrations sometimes use, without even being aware of it, software which communicates sensitive private information to foreign companies or organizations." Open-source software packages allow organizations to examine the underlying code and, in some cases, change that code to fix a problem or modify it to run with other software. The source code for Microsoft's products is closely guarded and unavailable to most customers. The company does allow its largest customers to access source code under a program called "shared source." Beyond the issue of source-code access, analysts say, concerns about autonomy and national security are likely to drive passage of more laws discouraging use of proprietary software. A number of countries have also used legislation to promote indigenous technology industries, such as PC makers. Brazil and China place heavy export duties on technology products, which effectively forces U.S. companies to build local facilities and employ large portions of the population. Countries in Africa also have used software export laws to help encourage local providers. The cradle of the new wave of laws mandating free software appears to be Brazil, where four cities--Amparo, Solonopole, Ribeirao Pires and Recife--have passed laws giving preference to or requiring the use of "software libre." Other municipalities, states and the national government have mulled similar legislation. Brazil has proved fertile ground for open-source laws, and free software advocates say that other developing nations will likely follow its lead. "This is a political and ethical issue, just like freedom of the press or freedom of association," said Richard Stallman, founder and president of the Free Software Foundation, who this year addressed the Brazilian Congress on the subject. "It makes sense, especially for countries like Brazil that are not rich, to encourage the country to switch from proprietary software to free software. "In addition to giving people freedoms, software has a secondary benefit because people can use this freedom to save a lot of money now draining away to a few rich foreigners." Elsewhere around the globe, Florence in June passed a motion mandating the use of "software libero" when feasible. A handful of smaller Italian municipalities, including Pavia, have passed similar motions. The Florentine motion's author, a member of the local Green Party, is now drafting a measure to be introduced by his colleagues in the national parliament. In France, the Senate last year considered a proposal requiring the government to use only free, open-source software and to establish a bureau of free software overseeing the measure's implementation. Described as an attention-getting scheme more than as a plausible bill, the proposal and its revision were defeated. However, French Prime Minister Lionel Jospin last week handed down a decree creating the Agency for Technologies of Information and Communication in Administration (ATICA), one of whose missions is "to encourage administrations to use free software and open standards." Despite the anti-U.S. bent behind much of the recent legislation, the legal trend against proprietary software hasn't left U.S. companies entirely in the cold. Instead, companies that have embraced open- source software are capitalizing on the foreign appetite for such software. IBM, for example, recently invested $200 million in its Linux ventures in Asia. And other companies are viewing the open-source legislative push as a positive development for their own open- source efforts. "We're noticing a lot of countries looking at free and open software as an alternative and mandating its use in certain situations," said Danese Cooper, whose informal title at Sun Microsystems is "open- source diva" and who is manager of its open-source programs office. "It's very exciting because any time you have respectable entities like governments saying they want to look seriously at a certain kind of code, that supports a movement and gives it legitimacy." Based on the Sun-sponsored OpenOffice project, Sun's StarOffice is intended to compete with Microsoft's Office software. Cooper speculated that countries with strong socialist histories or political movements are more likely to embrace open-source or free software, whether by force of law or by less-sweeping means. Some analysts caution that the idealistic goals of the software libre movement are worthy but likely to meet with frustration in the government sector, at least in the short term. "The use of free software is a noble idea, but government agencies typically do not have the technology modernization nor the technical expertise to ensure rapid adoption," said Rishi Sood, an analyst with Gartner. "Government agencies certainly need to develop more open-based technology systems and are looking for ways to improve data sharing across the enterprise." The political rhetoric surrounding the debate over open-source law supports that speculation, with ideological passions and concerns over privacy, open standards and globalism driving much of the legislative efforts. "Economic models of the software industry and the telecommunications industry...tend to induce strategies of incompatibility, industrial secrets, programmed obsolescence and violation of individual liberties," reads the preamble to the defeated French bill. Activists and programmers, while they welcome the free-software- only initiatives, say they're holding out for more sweeping legal protections for their work. "These laws are not the kind of help we most ask for from governments," said Stallman. "What we ask is that they not interfere with us with things like the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, with software patents, with prohibitions on reverse engineering that enable companies like Microsoft to make proprietary data formats and prohibit our work. Those are the main obstacles to satisfying the software needs of humanity." Copyright 2001 CNet Networks Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Thu Aug 30 10:23:49 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Rod - Are we _really_ on the same page? :>) I mean that literally. If you > are referring to the pages: > > http://www.scn.org/tech/ > http://www.scn.org/spiritual/ > http://www.scn.org/civic/ > > then your statements to Lois are simply NOT correct. The only things > showing at the top of those pages are general subtopic headings. To find > the specific links to the organizations that you mention, you have to > scroll the pages. Ken, On each main Community subject menu, you can always find a list of the SCN sites in that subject area. It is always the first thing listed in the menu links that you mentioned, at the top of the page. This is consistent on every menu. That link jumps to the detailed SCN sites list that immediately follows the page-top category links. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ljbeedle at scn.org Thu Aug 30 12:14:52 2001 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On each main Community subject menu, you can always find a list of the SCN sites in that subject area. It is always the first thing listed in the menu links that you mentioned, at the top of the page. This is consistent on every menu. That link jumps to the detailed SCN sites list that immediately follows the page-top category links. >Rod Clark Apparently you are assuming that the visitor knows the difference between pages hosted by scn and those just linked. The folks who contact me appear not to know. With lynx when I go to 'web', 'community' I don't see any headers that would indicate any of the pages I edit in bold. I do see the link to sites hosted by scn. By going to web, community., 'civic', then I need to know to go to 'nonprofit' and then I find Telephone Pioneers of America, Washington Chapter, this involves scrolling down several pages with lynx. To get to university christian church I have to go to community, spirituality, Christianity, Christian Churches, Disciples of Christ. >From community, Science and Technology, and by scrolling to the second page I find the museum. This is the easiest one to find it turns out. I don't find any of these listed in bold at the top of any page. Where are you looking? Were you talking about the sites hosted by scn link page? My suggestion is just that we take a look at the menu from the new visitors view and make things easy to find. Especially those sites that we host. And that we keep in mind that the visitor may not know what we are talking about when we say scn hosted sites. Lois Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Thu Aug 30 12:42:23 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Rod Clark wrote: OK - we are NOT on the same page. I see that you are referring to the /www.scn.org/community/ page, while I have been referring to the subtopic pages on the sidebar menu. Yes indeed, the community page does have areas with major Topic areas, and then subtopics under them. It is still 4 clicks to any actual web page of an IP organization. But - the reason I missed the community page is that you DO have all the subtopic pages listed in the sidebar menu. Why in the world would I go to the Community page link if I can already see a subtopic area that seems to be relevant? I think the current setup suffers from _too many_ ways to get to Community information, none of which are very efficient. Ken > > Rod - Are we _really_ on the same page? :>) I mean that literally. If you > > are referring to the pages: > > > > http://www.scn.org/tech/ > > http://www.scn.org/spiritual/ > > http://www.scn.org/civic/ > > > > then your statements to Lois are simply NOT correct. The only things > > showing at the top of those pages are general subtopic headings. To find > > the specific links to the organizations that you mention, you have to > > scroll the pages. > > Ken, > > On each main Community subject menu, you can always find a > list of the SCN sites in that subject area. It is always the > first thing listed in the menu links that you mentioned, at the > top of the page. This is consistent on every menu. That link > jumps to the detailed SCN sites list that immediately follows > the page-top category links. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 12:50:41 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010830195041.77689.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> That is the problem with SCN: There is stuff all over the place, so many avenues, so much clutter (but almost ironically a lack of content). I just get lost there. It needs to be tightened up and I'm going to see what I can do to tighten it up a bit. Considering that, what homegrown content would you all like to see for SCN? We all know it needs more content (without the clutter) because it should be as much a destination as a starting point to non-profits and other organizations we host or provide links for. I've tried tapping resources for people to write for SCN, but the submission have been a bit low for just Seazine. That's not a problem, though. What kind of new content would you like to see? Thanks, Patrick SCN webmaster/web team coordinator Patrick --- Kenneth Applegate wrote: > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > OK - we are NOT on the same page. I see that you are referring to the > > /www.scn.org/community/ page, while I have been referring to the subtopic > pages on the sidebar menu. Yes indeed, the community page does have areas > with major Topic areas, and then subtopics under them. It is still 4 > clicks to any actual web page of an IP organization. > > But - the reason I missed the community page is that you DO have all the > subtopic pages listed in the sidebar menu. Why in the world would I go to > the Community page link if I can already see a subtopic area that seems to > be relevant? > > I think the current setup suffers from _too many_ ways to get to > Community information, none of which are very efficient. > > Ken > > > > Rod - Are we _really_ on the same page? :>) I mean that literally. If you > > > are referring to the pages: > > > > > > http://www.scn.org/tech/ > > > http://www.scn.org/spiritual/ > > > http://www.scn.org/civic/ > > > > > > then your statements to Lois are simply NOT correct. The only things > > > showing at the top of those pages are general subtopic headings. To find > > > the specific links to the organizations that you mention, you have to > > > scroll the pages. > > > > Ken, > > > > On each main Community subject menu, you can always find a > > list of the SCN sites in that subject area. It is always the > > first thing listed in the menu links that you mentioned, at the > > top of the page. This is consistent on every menu. That link > > jumps to the detailed SCN sites list that immediately follows > > the page-top category links. > > > > Rod Clark > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? > By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Thu Aug 30 13:40:07 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > ... Why in the world would I go to the Community page link if > I can already see a subtopic area that seems to be relevant? > > I think the current setup suffers from _too many_ ways to get to > Community information, none of which are very efficient. Ken, You, and everyone else here, are welcome to show any improved page layouts that you can think up, in the /web/test area. Lots of people have access to that directory as part of the "mentors" group, which I think basically consists of everyone who has ever made a Web page for SCN. So please sketch out what you'd like to see instead of the current menus, so that we can try out some variations and get people's comments on how well they work. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ljbeedle at scn.org Thu Aug 30 14:38:52 2001 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: where do I find the sidebar menu in lynx? Lois Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Kenneth Applegate wrote: > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > OK - we are NOT on the same page. I see that you are referring to the > > /www.scn.org/community/ page, while I have been referring to the subtopic > pages on the sidebar menu. Yes indeed, the community page does have areas > with major Topic areas, and then subtopics under them. It is still 4 > clicks to any actual web page of an IP organization. > > But - the reason I missed the community page is that you DO have all the > subtopic pages listed in the sidebar menu. Why in the world would I go to > the Community page link if I can already see a subtopic area that seems to > be relevant? > > I think the current setup suffers from _too many_ ways to get to > Community information, none of which are very efficient. > > Ken > > > > Rod - Are we _really_ on the same page? :>) I mean that literally. If you > > > are referring to the pages: > > > > > > http://www.scn.org/tech/ > > > http://www.scn.org/spiritual/ > > > http://www.scn.org/civic/ > > > > > > then your statements to Lois are simply NOT correct. The only things > > > showing at the top of those pages are general subtopic headings. To find > > > the specific links to the organizations that you mention, you have to > > > scroll the pages. > > > > Ken, > > > > On each main Community subject menu, you can always find a > > list of the SCN sites in that subject area. It is always the > > first thing listed in the menu links that you mentioned, at the > > top of the page. This is consistent on every menu. That link > > jumps to the detailed SCN sites list that immediately follows > > the page-top category links. > > > > Rod Clark > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? > By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Thu Aug 30 14:43:27 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: <20010830005741.52221.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > ... I have heard nothing but complaints about the current > system. Complaints came from topic editors as well. Patrick, There actually are some reasons why the tree menus are harder to work with, and have been off-putting to topic editors compared to the "one enourmous page per topic" menus that we used to have. First, you can't always just append something to one fixed page. You have to look through the menu pages to find where it should go, because we have an expandable menu structure now. And it's not just that there are more menus. It's also that there are now a lot more headings and many more detailed sub-headings to deal with in each topic area, even for the same number of links. These take additional time and thought to think up and organize, significantly more so than the earlier style of making long lists of more loosely related links under fewer and more generic headings on one long page. It is mentally harder and more time consuming to extend the more fine-grained categorization system more frequently and in more detail whenever you add links. When I'm tired and I just want to add a few links, I don't like to have to deal with that, and I'm sure that neither do others. But it does help viewers, who can quickly scan the comprehensive and comparatively detailed page-top sub-heading menus on each page. The new site has a much better granularity of categorization, and I think giving that up would make things harder to find on the menus, not better. But adding each new heading to a page is more difficult now becauase of having to add a page-top heading item corresponding to the new heading in the body of the page. The Open Directory has automated programs to allow editors to add items more easily from Web forms, and lately there are various purported "EZ portal" systems out there as well. But we don't have any of that, so it can be tedious to do this. Then there are cross-references, which we never used to have. They're a very good addition, but they also take some care and thought about when to use them as well as with their format. They're another thing that has to be done in a consistent way, and are one more thing about the new site that isn't as easy as pushing a button when making menus. When moving a long and growing list of links under a heading to its own menu page, it's necessary to give some thought to how to subcategorize that lengthy list so that the new menu page isn't just a long list of undifferentiated related links that tend to make visitors' eyes glaze over from wandering up and down through dozens and dozens of undivided line items. To allow future expansion of the new menu and to give visitors as many clues as possible to the content of the page, you need to create enough subheadings to group the links into easily understandable subgroupings based on more specific differences between the sites on the page. This is a speed bump when adding a new page to the tree menus. Doing it is a chore because you have to subcategorize a whole new menu page into some number of new subclassifications that were all lumped together before, and you have to invent those extensions to the classification system all at once before you can proceed. These are only some of the little things that when added together make it noticeably more difficult to maintain a more highly structured, more highly categorized, more expandable and more highly cross-referenced site, compared to the simpler and less thoroughly indexed site that we had up through 1999. Ken alluded to some not very well chosen subhead titles. And there definitely are some, and I've done some of them. We're not using Library of Congress classification, or Dewey Decimal classification, or the AIRS social service classification (though Mel Guest and I did each look at that). It's basically just an empirical description of found objects. It could be improved in quite a few places, and Ken and others here are welcome to review any of the categorizations to improve them. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Thu Aug 30 14:51:12 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > where do I find the sidebar menu in lynx? Lois, The first link in Lynx is "Page Contents." That gives you all the places you can go from that menu to things at the next lower level. The second link in Lynx is "Site Contents." That gets you to a quick overview of the entire site's contents. It's equivalent to the right hand sidebar on the GUI view of the menus. So, to go straight to the contents of the current page (skipping over the intermediate menu links for all of the menus between this menu and the home page, and so on) tap the Enter key once. To go to the Site Contents listing, press the Down Arrow key once and then tap Enter. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Thu Aug 30 14:58:49 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > OK - we are NOT on the same page. I see that you are referring to the > > /www.scn.org/community/ page, while I have been referring to the subtopic > pages on the sidebar menu. Ken, That referred instead to the layout of the 18 main Community topic menu pages. Each of them does have all of the SCN hosted sites in the topic area prominently displayed on the front page of the topic menu. I do see what you're saying, that the SCN site has become large enough and the menus are so full of various local content that the Information Providers aren't nearly the only thing that the viewer's eye is directed to. Sometimes it takes more than one try to find a specific site on the menus, and I've had to make two or even three tries sometimes myself for some of them. This is pretty endemic on larger menu-based sites in general. Maybe sometimes it would be easier to just type in the name in the Search box. A search box is on every page on the site, for just that purpose. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ttrim at scn.org Thu Aug 30 15:12:45 2001 From: ttrim at scn.org (Terry Trimingham) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: <20010828185158.10628.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: While I think it is a bit of a surprise that this new project is on the board, I have looked at one sample design submitted, and I like it. The new logo on it contains the essence of the old logo, and the look feels cleaner and more professional. I totally agree that the content of our site needs working on (maybe more than the design), but I also think it is good to consider new things. Here is the sample that I viewed: http://www.studio30.com/scn/ Just my two cents, Terry * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Thu Aug 30 15:43:02 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Where are the others?? When we first chose a logo we had an open contest and everybody who showed up at our meeting got to vote. -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Terry Trimingham wrote: > > > While I think it is a bit of a surprise that this new project is on the > board, I have looked at one sample design submitted, and I like it. The > new logo on it contains the essence of the old logo, and the look feels > cleaner and more professional. > > I totally agree that the content of our site needs working on (maybe more > than the design), but I also think it is good to consider new things. > > Here is the sample that I viewed: > > > http://www.studio30.com/scn/ > > > > Just my two cents, > Terry > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Aug 30 15:47:50 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010830224750.82541.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> So that is how you voted. In person. Imagine that. Absentee ballots accepted, I suppose? Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > Where are the others?? > > When we first chose a logo we had an open contest and everybody > who showed up at our meeting got to vote. > > -- Doug > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Terry Trimingham wrote: > > > > > > > While I think it is a bit of a surprise that this new project is on the > > board, I have looked at one sample design submitted, and I like it. The > > new logo on it contains the essence of the old logo, and the look feels > > cleaner and more professional. > > > > I totally agree that the content of our site needs working on (maybe more > > than the design), but I also think it is good to consider new things. > > > > Here is the sample that I viewed: > > > > > > http://www.studio30.com/scn/ > > > > > > > > Just my two cents, > > Terry > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Thu Aug 30 16:23:58 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: <20010830224750.82541.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes we did vote *in person* -- it was all solved right there on the spot. Ideally there would have been an absentee approach also. The interesting thing was that anybody could bring in a drawing -- as I recall both of my kids brought in something. This has the benefit of letting more people -- potentially - participate in the design. ONe didn't have to be a professional or put something on the web. On the other hand as you point out it was difficult to have absentee voting. (BTW, the winning design was then given to an artist who logo-ized it.) -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > So that is how you voted. In person. Imagine that. > > Absentee ballots accepted, I suppose? > > Patrick > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > Where are the others?? > > > > When we first chose a logo we had an open contest and everybody > > who showed up at our meeting got to vote. > > > > -- Doug > > > > ****************************************************************** > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > * is being shaped today. * > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Terry Trimingham wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > While I think it is a bit of a surprise that this new project is on the > > > board, I have looked at one sample design submitted, and I like it. The > > > new logo on it contains the essence of the old logo, and the look feels > > > cleaner and more professional. > > > > > > I totally agree that the content of our site needs working on (maybe more > > > than the design), but I also think it is good to consider new things. > > > > > > Here is the sample that I viewed: > > > > > > > > > http://www.studio30.com/scn/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Just my two cents, > > > Terry > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger > http://im.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Thu Aug 30 17:06:12 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: BTW, for some verbiage on SCN and the Hermes connection you can look at http://www.scn.org/commnet/Presentations/bitJapan.html. It's an article I wrote entitled "Seattle Community Network: A Digital City for the People" for Bit, a Japanese computer magazine. e.g. I started it this way... As the son of Maia, a wood nymph, and Zeus, the king of the Gods, Hermes was neither God nor mortal. Beginning at his conception and lasting all through his life, the winged-footed messenger was a border crosser. Thus Hermes became, for the Greeks, the patron of many social activities involving change and exchange: travel, commerce, doorways, roads, language, communication, and, of course, sex. Additionally, the demigod's penchant for transgressing boundaries -- even the most sacred social conventions -- earned him the title of trickster. Seattle, like Hermes, is difficult to precisely describe. Seattle is home to corporate behemoths like Microsoft and Boeing whose acquisitive eyes are fixed on global markets. Yet in the closing days of the last millennium Seattle provided the streets for the ragtag and loosely organized anti-globalism demonstrations against the World Trade Organization. With that background, the Seattle Community Network's use of Hermes' likeness in their logo does not seem farfetched. Among its numerous border crossings, SCN fuzzes the traditional line between consumer and producer of information. In the era of the fast-buck dot-coms, the Seattle Community Network hearkens to the past and is more like a public library for the electronic age. In the so-called "new economy" with its hyper-inflated salaries and stock options the Seattle Community Network relies on volunteers who donate their time with no financial reward for the benefit of the community. In the era of global capitalism and the pre-eminence of profit and the "bottom line" the Seattle Community Network offers all of its services for free -- without banner ads or other digital detritus. In an era of where money talks, SCN raises the voice of citizens. Is SCN a trickster as well? I also talk about the logo... When a user encounters the Seattle Community Network (http://www.scn.org) the first thing he or she sees is the SCN logo which blends communication metaphors and Seattle imagery. Hermes, the messenger of the Gods, has apparently moved to the Pacific Northwest region of the US (where he enjoys considerably less sunshine than he did in his native Greece). In the logo, he is seen relaxing on snowcapped Mount Rainier, beckoning to future SCN users, the Seattle Space Needle, an icon from the 1963 World's Fair, now repurposed as a communications beacon, held casually in his hands. Clicking the "About SCN" link brings up information about SCN's policy and principles. SCN provides free web space, e-mail and listserve distribution. Basic information about contacting SCN, getting an account and publishing information on the SCN web site is found on the left side of the page, below the logo and the welcome message. Under that, the "Seattle Site of the Week" is featured. For what it's worth... Thanks! -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > > Yes we did vote *in person* -- it was all solved right there > on the spot. Ideally there would have been an absentee approach > also. The interesting thing was that anybody could bring in > a drawing -- as I recall both of my kids brought in something. > This has the benefit of letting more people -- potentially - > participate in the design. ONe didn't have to be a professional > or put something on the web. On the other hand as you point > out it was difficult to have absentee voting. (BTW, the > winning design was then given to an artist who logo-ized it.) > > -- Doug > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > > > So that is how you voted. In person. Imagine that. > > > > Absentee ballots accepted, I suppose? > > > > Patrick > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > Where are the others?? > > > > > > When we first chose a logo we had an open contest and everybody > > > who showed up at our meeting got to vote. > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > > > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > > * is being shaped today. * > > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Terry Trimingham wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I think it is a bit of a surprise that this new project is on the > > > > board, I have looked at one sample design submitted, and I like it. The > > > > new logo on it contains the essence of the old logo, and the look feels > > > > cleaner and more professional. > > > > > > > > I totally agree that the content of our site needs working on (maybe more > > > > than the design), but I also think it is good to consider new things. > > > > > > > > Here is the sample that I viewed: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.studio30.com/scn/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just my two cents, > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger > > http://im.yahoo.com > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Thu Aug 30 17:53:21 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Lois Beedle wrote: > where do I find the sidebar menu in lynx? Way, way, way down at the bottom of the page and off the screen unless you scroll! Ken > > Lois > > Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. > > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Kenneth Applegate wrote: > > > On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > > > OK - we are NOT on the same page. I see that you are referring to the > > > > /www.scn.org/community/ page, while I have been referring to the subtopic > > pages on the sidebar menu. Yes indeed, the community page does have areas > > with major Topic areas, and then subtopics under them. It is still 4 > > clicks to any actual web page of an IP organization. > > > > But - the reason I missed the community page is that you DO have all the > > subtopic pages listed in the sidebar menu. Why in the world would I go to > > the Community page link if I can already see a subtopic area that seems to > > be relevant? > > > > I think the current setup suffers from _too many_ ways to get to > > Community information, none of which are very efficient. > > > > Ken > > > > > > Rod - Are we _really_ on the same page? :>) I mean that literally. If you > > > > are referring to the pages: > > > > > > > > http://www.scn.org/tech/ > > > > http://www.scn.org/spiritual/ > > > > http://www.scn.org/civic/ > > > > > > > > then your statements to Lois are simply NOT correct. The only things > > > > showing at the top of those pages are general subtopic headings. To find > > > > the specific links to the organizations that you mention, you have to > > > > scroll the pages. > > > > > > Ken, > > > > > > On each main Community subject menu, you can always find a > > > list of the SCN sites in that subject area. It is always the > > > first thing listed in the menu links that you mentioned, at the > > > top of the page. This is consistent on every menu. That link > > > jumps to the detailed SCN sites list that immediately follows > > > the page-top category links. > > > > > > Rod Clark > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? > > By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * *