From steve at advocate.net Mon Dec 3 00:41:19 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 00:41:19 -0800 Subject: SCN: Convention on Cybercrime Message-ID: <3C0ACA2F.3171.76C6E2E@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ================== (Thomas E. Weber, Wall Street Journal)---Surely you've been following the activities at the Council of Europe. No? Well, you aren't the only one. But earlier this year the council completed a broad international accord known as the Convention on Cybercrime. The U.S. just signed it, along with more than two dozen other nations. If you or your company use the Internet, you should know about this treaty. If you operate any kind of computer network, you may find yourself fielding a subpoena or subject to corporate liability because of it. And if you communicate with others online, your data could be monitored as part of an international investigation. For nations that sign it, the accord mandates the criminalization of a long list of computer activities -- everything from breaking into a computer to the "deterioration" of computer data, whatever that means. It also requires countries to make sure they can snoop through Internet data in real time. And it obliges nations to assist each other's investigations by monitoring Net communications. The overarching goal -- clamping down on computer-related crime - - is laudable. But the cybercrime convention is a broad document, with plenty of room for interpretation. Will law-enforcement officials around the globe use it responsibly? Or will Internet users and the companies that service them find themselves needlessly spied upon because of far-flung investigations? The actual document is 25 pages long, and can be found online (http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/projets/FinalCybercrime.htm). As for the council, it dates back to 1949 and has negotiated international accords on human rights, crime and other issues. During the accord's development, it drew criticism from high-tech companies and privacy advocates alike. Companies feared they would be inundated with subpoenas for computer data as investigators in other countries made use of the accord. Dealing with those requests would cost money, and, depending on the kind of surveillance involved, could strain network systems. Some concerns were addressed as the treaty was revised. Originally, Internet-service providers fretted that the treaty might somehow require them to redesign their systems to build in new surveillance capabilities. But the convention's final version modified the surveillance requirements to include only the "existing technical capability" of service providers. Even so, the global nature of the accord raises questions, especially for U.S. companies. The U.S. remains the center of the Internet. Because of the way the network is designed, it isn't unusual for an Internet conversation between two parties in other countries to pass through computers in the U.S. That raises the possibility that U.S. companies will field surveillance requests related to all sorts of international investigations. Opposition from high-tech companies has quieted, partly because the now-completed convention can no longer be altered, and partly because it has become much more difficult to criticize law-and- order measures in the era after Sept. 11. AT&T, which was active in critiquing the convention while it was being drafted, declined to discuss it last week. Senate ratification in the U.S. seems assured, especially in the current climate. "That has clearly changed the political dynamic," says James J. Halpert, an attorney and partner at Piper Marbury Rudnick & Wolfe who has tracked the treaty's evolution. Also, the Justice Department has said it doesn't anticipate that new laws would be needed to meet the convention's requirements because existing laws already cover the relevant areas. While privacy advocates have expressed concern that abuse of the convention could infringe on civil liberties, the treaty has also produced some general anxiety among programmers. Read the discussions on Slashdot (slashdot.org) or other high-tech forums and you'll find that these programmers are hardly in favor of computer crime. But when it comes to computer-security issues, the line between research and crime is often blurry, and programmers don't necessarily trust the courts to decide where that line should be. Princeton University Prof. Edward Felten, for instance, has found himself entangled in copyright laws over research into the security of copy-protection systems. None of these concerns should undermine the basic thrust of the cybercrime convention. To combat crime on global networks, investigators need global tools. Attacks in cyberspace can come from practically anywhere in the real world, as we saw in the case of the so-called Love Bug computer virus last year. It apparently originated in the Philippines, which had no law against malicious computer software. But what is perhaps most remarkable is how little attention this accord attracted as it was being created. "A lot of people's eyes glaze over when there's a technical issue, and the same goes for a legal issue," says Mike Godwin, an attorney and longtime activist on technology issues. "This has got both." Copyright 2001 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From stanko_domovic at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 4 19:25:43 2001 From: stanko_domovic at yahoo.co.uk (Stanko) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 04:25:43 +0100 Subject: SCN: Financial Freedom! Message-ID: Your dreams can be truth! The New Year is coming, and for a lot of people this is the point where they are going to make a new start in their lives. What are your goals for the next millennium? Do you want to be financially independent? To have more quality time to spend with your friends and family? Times have changed! Research has shown that online businesses will explode in new Millennium. Many people want to make a lifestyle change to reach the goals they have in their lives. We offer you to create a large enough residual income in the next few years to take care for yourself and your family for the rest of your life! With determination and commitment you could change your lifestyle. Would you rather take the 40 year plan and work from 9 to 5 every day, year after year or take the few years plan? Also, there is no short-way in a business. So, we do not promise you "get rich in 4 weeks". We promise you good, honest online Business that would give you the opportunity to be in business for yourself and self-employed, to be financially independent and to be able to quit my day job. Now is the time to take ACTION! Join for FREE and look for yourself how unique business opportunity we offer. You will find a place of wonderful people, great support and training. Find your dreams. Find real freedom. http://stanko10.50megs.com/ My Best Wishes To You and Your Family! Stanko Domovic ******************* See Notice Below **************** This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. This message is NOT Spam as long as you are provided with a way to remove your name from this mailing list. All further transmissions to you from me may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a Reply to this letter with the word "remove" in the Subject line. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Tue Dec 4 21:52:08 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 21:52:08 -0800 Subject: SCN: [Fwd: FC: Digital Angel launches human, animal GPS tracking system] Message-ID: <3C0DB608.44260800@blarg.net> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: FC: Digital Angel launches human, animal GPS tracking system Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 19:20:43 -0500 From: Declan McCullagh Reply-To: declan at well.com To: politech at politechbot.com CC: rjackson at adsx.com, matthew at ovations.com, info at mas1.com Nathan Cochrane wrote an excellent article for Politech discussing Digital Angel and the patents it holds for implanting chips into animals (and, potentially, humans) and tracking their movements. It's here: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02154.html Here's Digital Angel's official response: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02162.html Note the current announcement is talking only about wristwatch/leg-cuff-type devices, not implants. ADSX shares fell 6.81 percent today to close at $0.41: http://finance.lycos.com/home/stocks/quotes.asp?symbols=adsx&option= -Declan --- "Technical data": http://www.digitalangel.net/da/tech.asp --- >Digital Angel GPS System Launches First Phase > >Summary: > >Palm Beach, Fla.-based Applied Digital Solutions Inc. now is offering >details of its rollout plan for Digital Angel, which it touts as the >"first-ever combination of advanced biosensor technology and Web-enabled >wireless telecommunications linked to GPS." The first target market >appears to be Florida. The company says that by using advanced biosensor >capabilities, Digital Angel will be able to monitor key body functions, >including temperature and pulse, transmitting that data along with >accurate location information to a ground station or monitoring facility. >Potential applications include locating lost or missing individuals, >locating missing or stolen household pets, monitoring parolees, managing >livestock; pinpointing stolen property and preventing the unauthorized use >of firearms. > >Full Article: > >PALM BEACH, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov. 30, 2001-- Applied Digital >Solutions, Inc. (Nasdaq: ADSX - news ) today released details of its >much-anticipated rollout plan for Digital Angel(TM), the first-ever >combination of advanced biosensor technology and Web-enabled wireless >telecommunications linked to Global Positioning Systems (GPS). > >As previously announced, the rollout program - which began on November >26th - will enable the company to leverage its first-mover advantage in >what is estimated to be a $70 billion Personal Safeguard Technology >marketplace. > >The comprehensive Digital Angel rollout program includes the following >elements: > >-- Delivery of Digital Angel units, for certain target >demographics. This program, which commenced as planned on >November 26, 2001, involves a systematic product >customization and assessment effort designed to ensure all >Digital Angel products and data delivery requirements are >responsive to each customer's parameters. > >-- An updated and redesigned Digital Angel website with a new >product registration program and product delivery schedule. >Customers can now purchase the full array of Digital Angel >products. Delivery of these units is expected to take from >three to six weeks. > >-- The start of Digital Angel print advertising program, >targeted to the South Florida marketplace. Beginning in mid >December, the advertising program will expand to include >television. The impact of this initial advertising program >will be carefully evaluated to see if it is suitable for use >in other markets as the rollout expands nationally. > >In explaining the company's rollout plans for Digital Angel, Applied >Digital Solutions' Chairman and CEO, Richard Sullivan, said: ``We want to >get Digital Angel products out to customers as quickly as we possibly can. >But we also want to make sure we do this right. We want to make sure our >first Digital Angel customers are not only satisfied with the product, but >absolutely thrilled with it. That means we need to put an emphasis on >customer service and customizing the product to meet each customer's >specific needs. This rollout plan is comprehensive, including advertising >and a new product registration program, but it's also targeted in scope so >we can manage the process and assess what works and what doesn't as we go >along. We're taking this a step at a time, beginning in South Florida - >which has great demographics for us - and then expanding to other markets >in the coming months.'' > >About Digital Angel(TM) > >Digital Angel represents the first-ever combination of advanced biosensor >technology and Web-enabled wireless telecommunications linked to Global >Positioning Systems (GPS). By utilizing advanced biosensor capabilities, >Digital Angel will be able to monitor key body functions - such as >temperature and pulse - and transmit that data, along with accurate >location information, to a ground station or monitoring facility. > >Applied Digital Solutions is exploring a wide range of potential >applications for Digital Angel, including: monitoring the location and >medical condition of at-risk patients; locating lost or missing >individuals; locating missing or stolen household pets; monitoring the >location of certain parolees; managing livestock and other farm-related >animals; pinpointing the location of valuable stolen property; managing >the commodity supply chain; preventing the unauthorized use of firearms; >and providing a tamper-proof means of identification for enhanced >e-commerce security. Digital Angel Corporation has announced a proposed >merger with Medical Advisory Systems. For more information on Digital >Angel, visit www.digitalangel.net. > >About Medical Advisory Systems > >Medical Advisory Systems, Inc. is a global leader in telemedicine that has >operated a 24/7, physician-staffed call center in Owings, MD for nearly 20 >years. Through a worldwide telecommunications network, MAS provides health >care to ships-at-sea and other remote locations, one-on-one ``chats'' with >a physician via the Internet or telephone, as well as medical and >non-medical services for the travel industry. MAS owns a 12% equity >interest in Paris-based CORIS Group, which provides it with the ability to >offer its services in over 30 countries worldwide. For additional >information, visit www.mas1.com. > >About Applied Digital Solutions, Inc. > >Applied Digital Solutions is an advanced digital technology development >company that focuses on a range of early warning alert, miniaturized power >sources and security monitoring systems combined with the comprehensive >data management services required to support them. Through its Advanced >Wireless unit, the Company specializes in security-related data >collection, value-added data intelligence and complex data delivery >systems for a wide variety of end users including commercial operations, >government agencies and consumers. For more information, visit the >company's website at http://www.adsx.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Wed Dec 5 07:30:40 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 07:30:40 -0800 Subject: SCN: Keystroke logging Message-ID: <3C0DCD20.20825.1DC0A08@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ====================== (Robert Vamosi, ZDNet AnchorDesk)---What if every keystroke you typed was recorded? Programs that do this have existed for years, and are often traded on shadowy Web sites. Alone, they are mere curiosities, but when coupled with Trojan horses that send the data over the Internet, these so-called keystroke loggers allow malicious users to steal your passwords and credit card numbers. Now the U.S. government wants to use similar keystroke-logging- enabled Trojan horses in the war against terrorism, and two U.S. antivirus companies have announced they'll look the other way. Simply put, a keystroke logging program is a memory application that records every keystroke a user makes on a given computer. Most keystroke loggers record the application name, the time and date the application was opened, and the keystrokes associated with that application. For example, when you open Outlook and write an e-mail, the keystroke logger would record your e-mail address, the subject line, and any body text you type. Some keystroke loggers are advertised as child-protection programs, as they allow parents to see which sites their children have visited, or what their children typed during online chats. Keystroke loggers are also advertised as a means for companies to "assess" their employees' work habits. But this technology gets really pernicious when a malicious user couples it with a Trojan horse, as was the case with the recent Badtrans.B worm. Often, keystroke loggers track what you type in popular Web browsers. Lately, though, new loggers record the passphrase you enter into encryption programs such as PGP. The passphrase is a series of words that access your encryption key. Once malicious users obtain your passphrase, they can use your encryption key, and therefore decrypt any information you have encrypted. The U.S. government wants to use these encryption-keystroke loggers to find criminals and terrorists. In a recent and highly publicized loan shark and racketeering case in New York, FBI agents obtained information using an encryption-keystroke logger placed on computers in suspected mobster Nicodemo Scarfo's New Jersey office. According to MSNBC, agents did so by breaking into the Scarfo office and individually installing the logger on each computer. (I'll leave the question of whether or not the government should be able to "steal" encryption keys for another column.) Code-named "Magic Lantern," the bureau's new project would essentially create a government-sanctioned Internet worm that would self-install encryption-keystroke loggers on chosen computers. Agents would still need to obtain a court order before "infecting" someone, however the U.S. Patriot Act passed in October requires authorization only from a state or U.S. attorney general at first; a judge's order isn't needed until later. One method of distributing the encryption-keystroke loggers involves having a friend or relative of the person under investigation send him or her an infected e-mail. Of course, this could only happen if the suspect's antivirus program didn't first detect the FBI's Trojan horse. So far, Symantec and Network Associates have said their software will not detect the presence of this FBI Trojan horse. It should be noted that antivirus products already exclude some files from their scans, though none are as powerful as Magic Lantern. No antivirus software vendors outside the U.S have weighed in on this matter yet. Shane Coursen, a SecurityFocus columnist and CEO of WildList Organization International, a group that tracks viruses in the wild, predicts that any such collusion with the FBI might begin the downfall of U.S. antivirus software maker's dominance worldwide. I think the real danger lurks in the FBI borrowing a page from a malicious user's notebook. Even if every antivirus vendor in the world agreed to exclude the FBI's Trojan, the shadow Web sites already used by malicious users would start hosting custom Magic Lantern detection programs. Once such a tool is available, the FBI's magic would be useless. Copyright 2001 CNET Networks Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Fri Dec 7 08:35:40 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:35:40 -0800 Subject: SCN: Wireless guerrillas Message-ID: <3C107F5C.22281.C64AC2E@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ==================== ASPEN, COLORADO (Wall Street Journal)---Jim Selby clambered up a ladder onto the roof of a four-story office building here to survey his little alternate empire. "I've got one on top of there," he said, pointing to a distant rooftop, "and one there, too." Mr. Selby was speaking of all the gray antennas dotting the skyline, broadcasting Internet access all over town. The service is fast and free, which makes Mr. Selby, who put up the towers, a bit of a revolutionary. "I've got Aspen nailed!" says Mr. Selby, 35 years old, as he gestures at a dozen antennas atop low-rise buildings. "I've opened the network up to the masses." Some of the nation's big corporations have racked up billions of dollars in losses trying to bring high-speed Internet access to all who might want it. But the 6-foot-4 Mr. Selby, an avowed ski bum, is doing it in his own small way with a combination of Russian military-surplus antennas and electronic parts from a hardware store. His antennas allow anyone in a 45-square-mile area around Aspen with a computer and a $120 plug-in card to surf the Web over the airwaves free at speeds 30 times as fast as with a standard modem. Mr. Selby is a wireless guerrilla, one of several hobbyists around the nation who are building shoestring wireless networks out of such materials as potato-chip cans and rubber hoses. They are doing so by piggybacking free of charge on the premium high- speed Internet connections that telecom and cable companies provide to many homes and businesses for as much as $1,000 a month. Even so, Mr. Selby, who eventually aims to charge for access to his network, says he hasn't encountered any resistance from providers of such high-speed links, who don't seem worried about his plans. Mr. Selby and fellow guerrillas now operating in cities such as New York, Portland, Ore., and Seattle are defying the conventional wisdom that building high-speed networks is complex and costly. Their secret is a technology known in technical lingo as 802.11b, or Wi-Fi. It was never intended for public Internet access. Using the same unlicensed radio spectrum as microwave ovens and baby monitors, it was designed primarily to transmit signals for 300 to 400 feet in wireless corporate computer networks and from a phone line to a laptop. But history is full of unscripted uprisings just like this, in which people take an existing technology off the shelf and put it to an unanticipated use. It doesn't take much time or money to set up an 802.11b network. "All that's involved is a simple geek factor," says Bruce Potter, a wireless guerrilla in Leesburg, Va., who estimates it cost him $500 in cables, wireless cards and other equipment to create a wireless node atop his house. "I've built three or four other antennas so far using Pringles cans, and that cost me about $4." Many of the guerrillas have adopted a crusading tone about their work. "I want bandwidth to be as free as air," says Rob Flickenger, who founded a free wireless network in Sebastopol, Calif. Bandwidth is the capacity to carry data; broadband is used to describe connections that are faster than conventional modems. Kevin Rich, a Denver-based proponent of free wireless networks, adds: "We want to make it a people's movement." Wireless guerrillas could face trouble from their own Internet- service providers for allowing nonsubscribers to tap in, but so far nobody has bothered them because of the small number of users involved. Shaun Gilmore, executive vice president of Qwest Communications International Inc., which provides local phone service and high-speed Internet access in Aspen, says the wireless guerrillas are "creative people developing creative ways" to make high-speed Internet access available. Building an 802.11b network to piggyback on a high-speed Internet line is "not technically illegal," Mr. Gilmore says in a statement, but adds that it can slow the Internet connection. Mr. Selby began investigating wireless technologies a few years ago. Through word of mouth, he found a wireless-equipment supplier in Solon, Ohio, from whom he bought two surplus Russian military antennas for a total of $700. At an Aspen hardware store, he picked up a length of rubber hose to protect the wiring. Then he placed the antennas, which he nicknamed "the Ruskis," on an office building owned by some friends and atop his own townhouse. When Mr. Selby flipped the switch in August 1999, not much happened. "We didn't know squat," he says. But after making a few adjustments, he had a faint signal between his house and the office building. His friends' office was connected to a T-1 line, a direct, high-speed link to the Internet. He had created wireless coverage in a 13-block area. That gave him an idea: Why not deliver the Internet to everybody in town? Mr. Selby quickly sold his house in Detroit and plowed $80,000 into broadening the network. He began scouting out locations for other antennas. Last year, a former high-tech executive who lived in a mountaintop home gave him permission to put up an antenna in exchange for free wireless service. That increased the network's wireless coverage by five square miles. Mr. Selby soon made the same barter deal with other mountaintop residents. Word of the free network began spreading. Bill Gurley, a partner at Benchmark Capital, a Silicon Valley venture-capital firm, and Sky Dayton, founder of Internet-service provider Earthlink, unexpectedly tapped into Mr. Selby's network while in Aspen for a conference earlier this year. Mr. Dayton opened his laptop in his hotel room and found he could choose from four guerrilla wireless networks, including Mr. Selby's, to reach the Internet. "I was floored," Mr. Dayton says. Other entrepreneurs are launching companies to offer small-scale Internet access via 802.11b in airports, hotels and coffee shops. And some think the technology could be harnessed to offer commercial high-speed Internet access to homes and offices. These developments could conceivably spell trouble for long- delayed "third-generation" cellphone networks, which are to offer high-speed data services in addition to voice. Security is an issue, as some companies using 802.11b discovered when hackers tapped their corporate networks. Mr. Dayton says he can detect a neighbor's 802.11b network when he logs on at his Los Angeles home. You can't prevent people from picking up the signal, which is why Mr. Dayton sees his neighbor's network, but you can encrypt the traffic so they can't read it. Most experts think the problem can be circumvented. For the past few months, Mr. Selby has been concentrating on scraping together more cash to expand the network, which he says has attracted about 70 free users, including 10 regulars. He plans to augment his 13 antennas with three more by the end of the year. To raise cash, he sold the wireless network in August for $120,000 to a small Aspen company called Broadband West. Mr. Selby, who still runs the network, says he and Broadband West hope to start charging an unspecified fee for the wireless access sometime next year. When the network shows up on somebody's laptop, the person will be directed to a Web page and asked to provide a credit-card number and pay a fee. Copyright 2001 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From djuro_greguric at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 7 19:21:26 2001 From: djuro_greguric at yahoo.co.uk (Djuro) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 04:21:26 +0100 Subject: SCN: Internet Income! Message-ID: "YOU HAVE 3000 MEMBERS IN YOUR DOWNLINE!" 500 people received the above message in November. 3500 new members joined our program last month, another RECORD month for our program! With our revolutionary new Single-Line Downline System, the first 500 new members who signed up had a GUARANTEED downline of at least 3000 people their first month! What if you only had 200, 100 or even 50 members placed in your downline? How many programs will do that for you? Here's the best part. You can try our program for FREE!! http://djuro20.50megs.com/ If we don't keep our word and build a Downline for YOU - You've risked nothing. Djuro Greguric ******************* See Notice Below **************** This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. This message is NOT Spam as long as you are provided with a way to remove your name from this mailing list. All further transmissions to you from me may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a Reply to this letter with the word "remove" in the Subject line. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 12:04:54 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 12:04:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN homepage update - featured sites Message-ID: <20011208200454.21357.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> The SCN homepage has been updated for December. The featured-site feature has been updated with three new SCN-hosted sites. Please email me any errors. Patrick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 12:37:13 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 12:37:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN message board added Message-ID: <20011208203713.99423.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> There is now a message board for SCN. Please see Featured Sites for December for a link to the board. The direct link is here: http://pub50.ezboard.com/bseattlecommunitynetwork . This board is currently external (www.ezboard.com), however there are discussions being held to add an SCN-hosted message board/bbs, using either phpbb (www.phpbb.com) or the Discus software (www.discusware.com). If you want to provide input on a permanent message board for SCN, please do so on the message board. There are currently two areas to the board: "What do you like about SCN" and "What do you dislike about SCN." You can view the feedback of others on the board. Patrick Seattle Community Network __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 12:55:19 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 12:55:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Hosted on SCN link added Message-ID: <20011208205519.56061.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> A "Hosted on SCN" link has been added to the navigation bar on SCN's homepage. This will allow people to go directly to those sites that we host. This will provide an incentive for people to host their sites on SCN as there is now quicker (direct) access to their sites. Eventually, with the new site redesign (I'm currently working on a prototype with a graphics and web designer), the navigation bar will be better organized. Patrick Seattle Community Network __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 13:58:03 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 13:58:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: site redesign update Message-ID: <20011208215803.19919.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Hello everyone, I wanted to provide a brief update on the SCN site redesign. I met with a web site designer and his intern a couple of weeks ago to discuss SCN's site redesign. There will be a mock-up site available by Christmas. It will be three layers deep (scn/community/community page). Implementation of the new site is targeted for mid-January. Basically, not a whole heck of a lot will change. It won't be drastic, no need for that. There will be three columns on the homepage, nav bar to right, SCN original content bar on left. The nav bars on the other pages will be more specific to those other areas of SCN and there will be two columns on those other pages as there is now. Javascript will be implemented for creating stylesheets so there will be more consistency and less work for those updating SCN's pages. Better clarity (organization) will be brought to the nav bars. Stock professional duo-tone photos of people may be available for SCN's pages. More information to come. Hold tight. The information I provided above is a very general synopsis of the discussions at the meeting. If you have any questions or concerns, please let me know or post a message on the SCN message boards (link is on the SCN homepage under "Featured Sites"). Thanks, Patrick Seattle Community Network __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 14:08:07 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:08:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: web team meeting reminder Message-ID: <20011208220807.78278.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> This is a reminder that there will be a web team meeting on Thursday, December 13th at Gorditos from 7 to 9 pm. I'm going to get there about 6:30 in case anyone wants to meet early. I'll put a little 8 1/2 x 11 sheet up on a wall with "SCN" printed on it. I'll try to get seating in the very back corner on the upper level of the restaurant. It's a very casual, cool place. Good, cheap food, very unpretentious (it's encouraged that people clean up their own tables after they eat.) Gorditos is located at 85th and Greenwood, just a bit west of Greenwood Avenue. Please consult the volunteer calendar for information on this meeting and other meetings. The link is on the navigation bar on the homepage. This will be the first official meeting for the web team in a long, long time. The meeting will be an opportunity for people to voice their concerns, share information and ideas, and get to know the faces behind SCN. As we all know, email has it's limitations. Thanks, Patrick Seattle Community Network __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 14:17:10 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:17:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN message board added In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011208221710.12063.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Michael, What message boards are there at SCN already has? I'm not aware of any. The purpose of the message boards is to allow people to see what other people are voicing likes and dislikes about. I was not clear about the meaning of the forums because I want to keep it as flexible and broad as possible. The news server is one other thing in a list of things to get implemented, but very tentative. I'm doing what I can on the front end. There are a lot of things that take priority over the news server for now. Google has news right now, so there is an alternative. Thanks for posting your thoughts and concerns and if I didn't make things more clear, then let me know. The message boards are only a start and are not fine tuned. Something may replace them very soon. And I will add a forum for "things broken". Good suggestion and I appreciate it. Patrick Seattle Community Network --- Michael Hanson wrote: > > So why are we creating new message boards instead of getting our > news > server back on line and using the ones we already have? > > It would be helpful to add one for problem reports/etc. > Where people can see if a problem has already been reported, > and hopefully those fixing things can post progress reports. > (Also helpful when the problem you need to report is that > SCN e-mail isn't working.) > ("What do you dislike about SCN" sounds like more of a > design discussion forum, than a place to bring up things > like our news server being down and the current mailer > problems. If those are appropriate topics, then perhaps a > cover page explaining scope of group would be in order.) > > Thanks, > Michael > > > On Sat, 8 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > There is now a message board for SCN. Please see Featured Sites > for > > December for a link to the board. The direct link is here: > > http://pub50.ezboard.com/bseattlecommunitynetwork . > > > > This board is currently external (www.ezboard.com), however there > are > > discussions being held to add an SCN-hosted message board/bbs, > using > > either phpbb (www.phpbb.com) or the Discus software > > (www.discusware.com). > > > > If you want to provide input on a permanent message board for > SCN, > > please do so on the message board. There are currently two areas > to > > the board: "What do you like about SCN" and "What do you dislike > > about SCN." You can view the feedback of others on the board. > > > > Patrick > > Seattle Community Network > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From michaelh at scn.org Sat Dec 8 15:36:30 2001 From: michaelh at scn.org (Michael Hanson) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:36:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN message board added In-Reply-To: <20011208221710.12063.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > Michael, > > What message boards are there at SCN already has? I'm not aware of > any. Here is a partial list (gleened grom my .newsrc) scn.whatsnew: 1-127 scn.questions: 1-1668 scn.bugs: 1-1860 scn.ideas: 1-543 scn.news.offline: 1-300 scn.newbieland: 1-1906 scn.admin.newsgroups: 1-394 scn.events.forum: 1-448 scn.cpsr.general: 1-107 scn.sustainable.general: 1-200 scn.earthsave.general: 1-200 scn.sastro.news: 1-192 scn.sastro.sky: 1-548 scn.sastro.talk: 1-252 scn.test: 1-238 scn.volunteers.general: 1-100 scn.admin.policy.changes: 1-44 scn.admin.committees.hardw-software: 1-187 scn.admin.committees.webmasters: 1-1970 scn.admin.committees.services: 1-34 > > The purpose of the message boards is to allow people to see what > other people are voicing likes and dislikes about. I was not clear > about the meaning of the forums because I want to keep it as flexible > and broad as possible. > > The news server is one other thing in a list of things to get > implemented, but very tentative. I'm doing what I can on the front > end. There are a lot of things that take priority over the news > server for now. Google has news right now, so there is an > alternative. Google does not carry the local SCN groups, which were the main ones I was meaning. (Sure, you can get outside news from lots of places - but the "fora" described in SCN's Policy Statement were implemented as local usenet groups.) Ezboard is plainly an inferior piece of rubbish - splattered with adds (not compatible with SCN philosophy), throws up all sorts of pop-up windows, and I would be very surprised if it is at all usable with Lynx. Why is the news server tentative? We had one. Did something happen to the machine? Did software rot set in? Is it more than a matter of just fixing whatever is wrong with the machine or software? (Outside news feeds are, of course, harder to handle, but since there are other ways to get them, all we realy need are the local newsgroups. Much less of a processing/disk/bandwidth problem.) (Of course I realize things like fixing the mail server so we can recieve all our mail comes first.) > > And I will add a forum for "things broken". Good suggestion and I > appreciate it. > Thanks. > Patrick > Seattle Community Network > > --- Michael Hanson wrote: > > > > So why are we creating new message boards instead of getting our > > news > > server back on line and using the ones we already have? > > > > It would be helpful to add one for problem reports/etc. > > Where people can see if a problem has already been reported, > > and hopefully those fixing things can post progress reports. > > (Also helpful when the problem you need to report is that > > SCN e-mail isn't working.) > > ("What do you dislike about SCN" sounds like more of a > > design discussion forum, than a place to bring up things > > like our news server being down and the current mailer > > problems. If those are appropriate topics, then perhaps a > > cover page explaining scope of group would be in order.) > > > > Thanks, > > Michael > > > > > > On Sat, 8 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > There is now a message board for SCN. Please see Featured Sites > > for > > > December for a link to the board. The direct link is here: > > > http://pub50.ezboard.com/bseattlecommunitynetwork . > > > > > > This board is currently external (www.ezboard.com), however there > > are > > > discussions being held to add an SCN-hosted message board/bbs, > > using > > > either phpbb (www.phpbb.com) or the Discus software > > > (www.discusware.com). > > > > > > If you want to provide input on a permanent message board for > > SCN, > > > please do so on the message board. There are currently two areas > > to > > > the board: "What do you like about SCN" and "What do you dislike > > > about SCN." You can view the feedback of others on the board. > > > > > > Patrick > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > > * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > > at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > > * * * * > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 09:15:03 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 09:15:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN message board added In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011209171503.15047.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Michael, As I said, EZBoards is temporary until we get something installed on SCN. EZBoards is a fine service. It is just that you get what you pay for. If you pay, you get no ads. Sounds like a viable economical model to me. The message boards you describe are Usenet groups. The are distinctly different. A Usenet group is not a message board. And many people would not use the Usenet groups since most people are simply web surfers, so a message board is a better idea. And unlike a Usenet group, a message board allows you to see all of the posts, not just one reply after another. Thank you for replying. User input is much appreciated. Patrick --- Michael Hanson wrote: > > > > On Sat, 8 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > Michael, > > > > What message boards are there at SCN already has? I'm not aware > of > > any. > > Here is a partial list (gleened grom my .newsrc) > > scn.whatsnew: 1-127 > scn.questions: 1-1668 > scn.bugs: 1-1860 > scn.ideas: 1-543 > scn.news.offline: 1-300 > scn.newbieland: 1-1906 > scn.admin.newsgroups: 1-394 > scn.events.forum: 1-448 > scn.cpsr.general: 1-107 > scn.sustainable.general: 1-200 > scn.earthsave.general: 1-200 > scn.sastro.news: 1-192 > scn.sastro.sky: 1-548 > scn.sastro.talk: 1-252 > scn.test: 1-238 > scn.volunteers.general: 1-100 > scn.admin.policy.changes: 1-44 > scn.admin.committees.hardw-software: 1-187 > scn.admin.committees.webmasters: 1-1970 > scn.admin.committees.services: 1-34 > > > > > The purpose of the message boards is to allow people to see what > > other people are voicing likes and dislikes about. I was not > clear > > about the meaning of the forums because I want to keep it as > flexible > > and broad as possible. > > > > The news server is one other thing in a list of things to get > > implemented, but very tentative. I'm doing what I can on the > front > > end. There are a lot of things that take priority over the news > > server for now. Google has news right now, so there is an > > alternative. > > Google does not carry the local SCN groups, which were the main > ones I was > meaning. (Sure, you can get outside news from lots of places - but > the > "fora" described in SCN's Policy Statement were implemented as > local > usenet groups.) > > Ezboard is plainly an inferior piece of rubbish - splattered with > adds > (not compatible with SCN philosophy), throws up all sorts of pop-up > windows, and I would be very surprised if it is at all usable with > Lynx. > > Why is the news server tentative? We had one. Did something happen > to the > machine? Did software rot set in? Is it more than a matter of > just > fixing whatever is wrong with the machine or software? (Outside > news > feeds are, of course, harder to handle, but since there are other > ways to > get them, all we realy need are the local newsgroups. Much less of > a > processing/disk/bandwidth problem.) (Of course I realize things > like > fixing the mail server so we can recieve all our mail comes first.) > > > > > > And I will add a forum for "things broken". Good suggestion and I > > appreciate it. > > > Thanks. > > > Patrick > > Seattle Community Network > > > > --- Michael Hanson wrote: > > > > > > So why are we creating new message boards instead of getting > our > > > news > > > server back on line and using the ones we already have? > > > > > > It would be helpful to add one for problem reports/etc. > > > Where people can see if a problem has already been reported, > > > and hopefully those fixing things can post progress reports. > > > (Also helpful when the problem you need to report is that > > > SCN e-mail isn't working.) > > > ("What do you dislike about SCN" sounds like more of a > > > design discussion forum, than a place to bring up things > > > like our news server being down and the current mailer > > > problems. If those are appropriate topics, then perhaps a > > > cover page explaining scope of group would be in order.) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 8 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > There is now a message board for SCN. Please see Featured > Sites > > > for > > > > December for a link to the board. The direct link is here: > > > > http://pub50.ezboard.com/bseattlecommunitynetwork . > > > > > > > > This board is currently external (www.ezboard.com), however > there > > > are > > > > discussions being held to add an SCN-hosted message > board/bbs, > > > using > > > > either phpbb (www.phpbb.com) or the Discus software > > > > (www.discusware.com). > > > > > > > > If you want to provide input on a permanent message board for > > > SCN, > > > > please do so on the message board. There are currently two > areas > > > to > > > > the board: "What do you like about SCN" and "What do you > dislike > > > > about SCN." You can view the feedback of others on the board. > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > web > > > at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * > * * > > > * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From Scott.F at myyc.net Wed Dec 12 04:42:47 2001 From: Scott.F at myyc.net (Scott.F at myyc.net) Date: 12 Dec 2001 20:42:47 +0800 Subject: SCN: Low cost quality conference calls Message-ID: <1008182237.0239557501@mail.myyc.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Dec 14 10:06:40 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:06:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: webteam meeting notes Message-ID: <20011214180640.84038.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> As luck would have it, Gorditos was closed last night. In fact it is closed for an entire month while the 'slacker' owners are on vacation. A new volunteer (Jim Loring) showed up for the meeting and our meeting of two ended up at Diva Espresso in Greenwood and I filled him in on what is going on at SCN, past, present and future and what opportunities are available at SCN. Essential information: There should be a mock-up of the new site redesign in a couple of weeks and implementation for the new design is targeted for mid-January. Last month, I met with a web designer and his intern and we discussed the fine points of SCN and how to go about updating the site and fine points like uniformity of text, stylesheets, ADA-compatibility, average user modem speeds, audience, content, structure, linking, et cetera. Patrick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Dec 14 10:06:40 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:06:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: webteam meeting notes Message-ID: <20011214180640.84038.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> As luck would have it, Gorditos was closed last night. In fact it is closed for an entire month while the 'slacker' owners are on vacation. A new volunteer (Jim Loring) showed up for the meeting and our meeting of two ended up at Diva Espresso in Greenwood and I filled him in on what is going on at SCN, past, present and future and what opportunities are available at SCN. Essential information: There should be a mock-up of the new site redesign in a couple of weeks and implementation for the new design is targeted for mid-January. Last month, I met with a web designer and his intern and we discussed the fine points of SCN and how to go about updating the site and fine points like uniformity of text, stylesheets, ADA-compatibility, average user modem speeds, audience, content, structure, linking, et cetera. Patrick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Dec 14 09:57:27 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:57:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks Message-ID: <20011214175727.10000.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> New O'Reilly book out called Building Wireless Community Networks: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/ Thanks to Apple, they have found a way to expand computing to new horizons with this highspeed wireless networking to a cool, new level. It's almost subversive, isn't it? Patrick Seattle Community Network __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Thu Dec 13 23:49:26 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:49:26 -0800 Subject: SCN: Links Message-ID: <3C193E86.25339.BA8BAE5@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ===================== (Carl S. Kaplan, NY Times)---Free speech advocates are worried that a recent federal appeals decision could have a chilling effect on online journalists who use hyperlinks to direct readers to relevant, newsworthy sites that contain illegal material. Even more troubling, the critics say, may be an emerging double standard in the way courts treat traditional print publishers and their online offshoots, especially when it concerns printing a controversial address in a newspaper vs. linking to it from a Web page. The recent, high-level judicial guidance on the law of linking came about in a relatively overlooked part of a widely-reported decision two weeks ago in the so-called " DeCSS" case. In that November 28th decision, the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit in Manhattan ruled in favor of the Motion Picture Association of America in its lawsuit against Eric Corley. The earlier injunction barred Eric Corley and his company, 2600 Enterprises, Inc., from posting a software code designed to crack DVD-movie copy protection on their Web site and from knowingly linking their Web site to any other site on which the software, called DeCSS, is posted. In the decision penned by Judge Jon O. Newman, the appeals court held that the injunction did not violate the First Amendment rights of Corley, a publisher of a magazine and affiliated Web site devoted to news about hackers. In addition, the court rejected Corley's various constitutional challenges to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998, a federal law that served as the legal basis for the injunction. The D.M.C.A., in part, prohibits an individual from "trafficking" in or providing to others a computer program that is designed to circumvent the copy-protection scheme shielding a copyrighted work. It was in the latter part of the decision, which dealt with Corley's links to the DeCSS code, that the federal appeals court for the first time cautiously proceeded to place Internet hyperlinks under a legal microscope. The court began by observing that a hyperlink is not merely a high- tech footnote or reference card that conveys information to a reader concerning the location of additional content. Rather, the court said, a hyperlink contains a speech component and an additional "nonspeech" component -- some computer code -- that has the functional capacity to bring the content of the linked Web page to the user's computer screen at the click of a mouse. It is this instantaneous, functional nature of the hyperlink that distinguishes it from its non-electronic print cousin, said the court, because a hyperlink to digital material can result in "instantaneous worldwide distribution [of prohibited material] before any preventative measures can be taken." Because the D.M.C.A.'s anti-trafficking provision is targeted at the functional, instantaneous aspect of Corley's hyperlinks, continued the court, the regulation is "content neutral" and thus is subject to a relaxed level of judicial scrutiny. In reaching his conclusion on the propriety of the linking injunction, Judge Newman noted that the lower court judge, Lewis Kaplan, in "an especially carefully considered portion" of his ruling, expressed some concern that an overly broad ban against linking to illegal material under the D.M.C.A. would risk impairing freedom of expression. For that reason, Judge Kaplan formulated a three-part legal test for illegal links. There had to be clear and convincing evidence that the person responsible for the link (a) knew at the time that the offending technology is on the linked-to site, (b) knew that the offending technology is illegal under the D.M.C.A., and (c) created or maintained the link for the "purpose" of disseminating the tainted code. When Judge Kaplan issued his opinion last year, some advocates of press freedom complained that his test was not sufficiently protective of reporters. After all, they said, an online reporter who linked to the source of a story about illegal software code, for example, obviously would have created the link for the "purpose" of disseminating information about the code to the public. If some press advocates were hopeful that the Second Circuit would reject Judge Kaplan's linking test, they were wrong. For although Judge Newman did not explicitly embrace the three-part scheme, he did not say that it is wrong. Indeed, he said that it might be more "rigorous" than necessary. Jane Kirtley, a law professor at the University of Minnesota who specializes in press issues, and who co-authored a friend-of-the- court brief in the DeCSS case, said that the Second Circuit's decision regarding linking places journalists in an "unsettled" position. "The short answer is that now journalists may have a problem with hyperlinking," she said. "The court found a qualitative difference between a newspaper printing an address and a Web site linking to an address," she said. "Maybe the Second Circuit found comfort in Judge Kaplan's test, but I don't," Kirtley added, referring to the what she perceived to be a danger that the test might force the government or litigants to probe the motives of journalists in a linking case. "What difference does the intent make?" said Kirtley. "Under the First Amendment, intent should be irrelevant." Cindy A. Cohn, a lawyer with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a civil liberties group that represented Corley on appeal, predicted that the Second Circuit's decision on linking would pressure online journalists and publishers to stop employing hyperlinks in some circumstances. At the beginning of the DeCSS controversy, she said, some online reporters who wrote stories about Corley linked directly or indirectly to sites that contained DeCSS code. "How many link to DeCSS now?" she asked. "Not many. I suspect they think they could get themselves in trouble. Hopefully we won't see this trend grow, but there's a real risk" that it will, she said. Yochai Benkler, a law professor at N.Y.U. who also submitted a friend-of-the-court brief in the DeCSS case, arguing that the D.M.C.A. is unconstitutional, said that he believed the Second Circuit's decision on the linking issue is "vague" and does not contain concrete guidance for reporters. "The problem is that nobody knows what the rules are, and in the context of the First Amendment that kind of vagueness is a real problem," he said. "It results in a tremendous chilling effect." But not everyone thinks that the appeals decision is so broad that it can potentially serve as a precedent to restrict the general use of hyperlinking. Charles Sims, a partner at the New York-based law firm Proskauer Rose and the lead counsel for the eight Hollywood movie studios that filed suit against Corley, said that the appeals court's linking ruling was "relatively narrow" when viewed in the context of the case's facts and circumstances. Sims observed that Corley did not link to DeCSS once or twice but had posted hundreds of links to the code. In addition, he said, Corley wrote on his page of links statements that encouraged readers to go to the linked-to sites and make copies of DeCSS. Finally, Corley added many links to DeCSS on his Web site after the lower court issued a preliminary injunction barring him from posting the code. "I think clearly [the appeals court] found that this guy, without any question, was providing and intending to provide DeCSS to the public" via his links, said Sims. "I don't think there is anything in this opinion that suggests that a journalist who provides links to further information on any subject is going to be found to have committed" an anti-trafficking violation, he added. Sims acknowledged that there is no explicit paragraph in the appeals opinion that draws a bright line between lawful and unlawful links to prohibited material. "But I'm very confident that the Second Circuit thought it through and concluded that this injunction did not threaten free speech," he said. Mark Sableman, a partner at the St. Louis law firm Thompson Coburn, and author of an upcoming article on link law in the Berkeley Technology Law Journal, said in an interview that it was "fair judgment" under the facts for the appeals court to view Corley's links as an illegal means of actively encouraging the downloading and use of the tainted DeCSS software. In the inevitable future case concerning a mere "media informational link" to prohibited material, Sableman said that he is hopeful a court will regard that linking activity as more akin to pure speech and thus deserving of the highest protection under the constitution. Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From info at zauctionoffshore.com Sun Dec 16 10:43:47 2001 From: info at zauctionoffshore.com (info at zauctionoffshore.com) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 10:43:47 -0800 Subject: SCN: Tax Payers all over the world, and the News Media need this information, (Preview) Message-ID: <200112161646.IAA07941@scn.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at advocate.net Sun Dec 16 09:05:20 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 09:05:20 -0800 Subject: SCN: Warez Message-ID: <3C1C63D0.5961.857223D@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ==================== (George Johnson, NY Times)---As computers become indispensable to modern life, the steepest learning curve society faces is not technical but philosophical. It is easy enough to learn, like a lab rat, to click a simulated button in a Web browser and download the patterns of symbols called computer programs. In a matter of seconds you are the proud owner of a new word processor, calculator or computer game - an invisible, virtual machine. Far more difficult is coming to grips with the nature of so intangible a possession. Throughout the world of the Internet, people who would never think of stealing a cellphone or a camera find it easy to justify downloading pirated software. For all the work that goes into designing these digital creations, they just don't quite seem like real things. Last week federal investigators raided campuses and high-tech companies across the country, seizing computers and hard drives, evidence against what they say is one of the largest software piracy rings. As part of a global sweep, warrants were also served in Australia, Britain, Finland and Norway. The pirates are accused of trafficking in "warez" (rhymes with wares), Internet slang for software that has been "liberated" from the protective encryption imposed by its makers and posted free for the taking. Seeing themselves as more Robin Hood than Captain Hook, the loose confederation of students, university employees and software company insiders was apparently motivated primarily by ideology - a belief that products consisting purely of information are somehow different from those you can hold in your hand. Like thoughts, they should be allowed to run free. The fate of the members of the group (named, for some reason, DrinkOrDie) and others who traded programs, digitized movies and video games through a Web site set up as a Justice Department sting operation, will be decided on legal grounds. But no judge or jury can resolve the deeper questions about the ambiguity of this ethereal something called information. How does one live in a world where there is no meaningful difference between an original and its copy? Where the menagerie of objects includes these curious concoctions called algorithms - symbolic expressions that don't lie still on the page but have the power to animate computer chips. Hovering somewhere between an idea and a mechanism, an algorithm is mathematics that stands up and does something. The conceptual confusion goes beyond software piracy, and beyond the debate earlier this year over the morality of Napster, the cyberspace nexus that temporarily turned a whole layer of the Internet into a vast dormitory jukebox. Where, in the broadest sense, does one draw the line between reality and its representation? And what if there is no distinction at all? Confronted by such ontological matters, the Supreme Court is currently considering the legality of virtual child pornography, in which synthesized images are becoming indistinguishable from the real thing. If living children are not involved in the image-making, has anyone done actual (as opposed to virtual) wrong? With the impending conflation of the real and the simulated, actors' unions are facing a future in which it will be impossible to tell filmed reality from ultra-high- resolution cartoons. Advances in cloning - the downloading and uploading of genetic data - are challenging bioethicists to consider the difference, if any, between a person and its duplicate. All across the societal map, people are struggling to get used to thinking of information as more than an airy abstraction, re-evaluating what is meant by reality. And what it means to steal. Within hours of the raids on DrinkOrDie, or DoD, as the group calls itself, messages poured into Internet chat groups like slashdot.org, a virtual watering hole for programmers and other technophiles. ("News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters" is its slogan.) Some participants defended "warezing" expensive software as a way to try it out before purchasing a legitimate copy - a practice another compared to breaking into car lots in the middle of the night and taking test-drives. But in this philosophical netherworld, crisp analogies are hard to come by. Snatching a digitally perfect copy of programs like Adobe Photoshop or Microsoft Office, which retail for hundreds of dollars, seems more like cloning a car and taking a joy ride while the original stays safely parked. Software liberationists contend that the crime is victimless - the people who use pirated software couldn't afford to buy it anyway. Or that freeing software is a blow against an Evil Empire whose Darth Vader is Bill Gates. And, some argue, since a program is just a recipe for getting a computer to carry out a task, copying it is like borrowing a recipe for chocolate cake. The dominant impression one gets from eavesdropping on the public conversation is that to the truest believers, warezing - if it is a crime at all - is one committed in an imaginary realm. The loot is no more real to the takers than the simulated treasure chest in a video game. But that seems destined to become the minority view. Slowly, generation by generation, people are growing accustomed to working with invisible tools. Computer hardware costing thousands of dollars is routinely abandoned as outmoded junk a few years after purchase, while the software and the data are carefully copied onto the new machine. Year by year, the furniture of existence - clocks, calendars, appointment books, records, photographs, novels, movies, even money - is slowly replaced by digital counterparts. As the substance behind these products leaks away, it becomes clearer that people have been buying and selling information all along. Binding it between book covers or shrink-wrapping it in boxes just camouflaged it while the world learned to recognize that something need not have heft to be real. Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Mon Dec 17 09:20:40 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:20:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks In-Reply-To: <20011214175727.10000.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patrick, I'll be looking in the prospect of using this new system in our upcoming conference. A friend of mine just did it in a conference he organized in the midwest. -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > New O'Reilly book out called Building Wireless Community Networks: > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/ > > Thanks to Apple, they have found a way to expand computing to new > horizons with this highspeed wireless networking to a cool, new > level. It's almost subversive, isn't it? > > Patrick > Seattle Community Network > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From gdth at mail.com Mon Dec 17 15:10:10 2001 From: gdth at mail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:10:10 +0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <20011217231010.25118.qmail@mail.com> To Whom It May Concern, Please delete my account due to not living in Seattle any longer. Greg Thompson bg998 -- _______________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup 1 cent a minute calls anywhere in the U.S.! http://www.getpennytalk.com/cgi-bin/adforward.cgi?p_key=RG9853KJ&url=http://www.getpennytalk.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 19:46:24 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:46:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011218034624.7316.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, It looks like a wi-fi community network is coming to Seattle. Just found the site: http://www.seattlewireless.net/ If it becomes a reality, I'll be getting an Apple Airport card/PC alternative for my Mac. Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > Patrick, > > I'll be looking in the prospect of using this new system > in our upcoming conference. A friend of mine just did it > in a conference he organized in the midwest. > > -- Doug > > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY > * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change > * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 > * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure > * > * is being shaped today. > * > * But by whom and to what ends? > * > > ****************************************************************** > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > New O'Reilly book out called Building Wireless Community > Networks: > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/ > > > > Thanks to Apple, they have found a way to expand computing to new > > horizons with this highspeed wireless networking to a cool, new > > level. It's almost subversive, isn't it? > > > > Patrick > > Seattle Community Network > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From services at vo-asia.com Wed Dec 19 19:10:22 2001 From: services at vo-asia.com (services at vo-asia.com) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:10:22 +0800 Subject: SCN: Virtual Office in Asia Message-ID: With this e-mail address, we assure you that you will only receive this promotion once! It is up to you to keep it, delete it or forward to a friend who needs it. After China joining the WTO... An Additional Web-Site in Chinese? A Branch Office in Hong Kong? Save up to 96.30%! Why spend more than you have to? Virtual Office ( Asia ) Limited - provides an integrated bundle of services which offer YOU a way to conduct MAXIMUM business activities with MINIMUM overhead to enter the Greater China market, Far East market, and / or other Asia Pacific market. Check out these example monthly rates... Monthly Expenses of Your Office in Hong Kong Average Cost VO-Asia.Com Silver Package Rent / Rate / Management Fee of the Office Space US$ 2,000 Not Needed Salary / MPF of your Sales Representative US$ 2,000 Included Salary / MPF of your Bilingual Secretary US$ 1,500 Included Local / International Phone and Fax Fee US$ 500 Included Web / Mail / SQL Server Connection Fee US$ 250 Included Other Miscellaneous Office Expenses US$ 500 Included TOTAL MONTHLY EXPENSES: US$ 6,750 Only US$ 250 (save 96.30%) To receive a further 20% discount, contact us and mention this code: fs2yn7de6b. For a limited time only! We offer special program to Small Office Home Office Associations, Business Development Centers, Trade Organizations, Chambers of Commerce, Venture Capitals or Business Incubators, contact us for more detail! Join us! Virtual Office ( Asia ) Limited is your full service virtual assistant and is committed to quality, excellence, and above all, 100% client satisfaction. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From douglas Thu Dec 20 09:14:01 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:14:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times Message-ID: <200112201714.JAA26488@scn.org> A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New Lease on Life" is in today's Los Angeles Times. http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dtechnology -- Doug * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 11:31:24 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:31:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <200112201714.JAA26488@scn.org> Message-ID: <20011220193124.46556.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. Victoria freenet has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is a great deal. Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail or some other web-based service to check their mail, after they have surfed the net to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it hard to go to a clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New Lease on Life" is > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dtechnology > > -- Doug > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From info at zauctionoffshore.com Thu Dec 20 22:45:02 2001 From: info at zauctionoffshore.com (info at zauctionoffshore.com) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:45:02 -0800 Subject: SCN: Mailing list only.........Sorry, it is not ready yet! Message-ID: <200112210447.UAA18906@scn.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steveg at scn.org Fri Dec 21 13:08:56 2001 From: steveg at scn.org (Steve Guest) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:08:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <20011220193124.46556.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the other hand, this is basic command style access and not FREE Internet access. I agree it would be great to offer such services, but we have address some important issues first. Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet access. 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to the Internet via our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to the Internet, then the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably. This would be followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed, because currently I have been led to believe that the Library would not be able to justify the cost of the service. This would mean that we would have to provide our own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need then to be in the Library because we are then simply taking up their limited space. So if this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the phone lines, the Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. We do not have the budget for this and we would be out of funds within months or weeks. 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as indicated that Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of worms. First lets point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a whole different set of rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are already looking at FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on the educational value of the service. As soon as we set up a competing service with a commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service - in an area which is not directly education then we fall outside the charitable status. Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened or is happening to Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company to sell their fee for service IP connections and break away from the educational section. Again something that would put us at odds with the Library and its donation to us. The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten to SCN, but we are in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal. Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this, understand the Library's view, have the funds and staff to support this and the software to ensure that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN being able to commit to supplying free full internet access for our users. Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is initialy an email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for Seattle. We were never in the free ISP business. I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say we cannot discuss these points, but we need to ensure that we can support our current services before we branch into others. Steve =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network (425) 653 7353 http://www.scn.org/ On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. Victoria freenet > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is a great deal. > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail or some other > web-based service to check their mail, after they have surfed the net > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it hard to go to a > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. > > Patrick > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New Lease on Life" is > > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dtechnology > > > > -- Doug > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 13:45:02 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:45:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011221214502.76293.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> I think the point I had was low-cost internet service. Affordable internet service. Not that I think SCN should go there. If it did, that would be nice, but that would be a long way off anyway. It would be nice if Seattle had a non-profit internet service. In the sense that it was paid for by the local community, users, and not developed to make lots of money. Affordable internet service is an issue, not computers. Computers aer cheap, free, but service to the internet is not free, nor is it cheap. Unless you go to the library and use it for free. Having internet service for $104 a year would really put it within the reach of a lot of people. Currently, at $20 a month, it's a bit expensive. Patrick Patrick --- Steve Guest wrote: > Hi > Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the other hand, > this is > basic command style access and not FREE Internet access. I agree > it would > be great to offer such services, but we have address some important > issues > first. > > Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet access. > > 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to the > Internet via > our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to the > Internet, then > the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably. This would be > followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed, because > currently I > have been led to believe that the Library would not be able to > justify the > cost of the service. This would mean that we would have to provide > our > own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need then to be in > the > Library because we are then simply taking up their limited space. > So if > this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the phone lines, > the > Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. We do not > have the > budget for this and we would be out of funds within months or > weeks. > > 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as indicated that > Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of worms. First > lets > point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a whole different > set of > rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are already > looking at > FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on the > educational value > of the service. As soon as we set up a competing service with a > commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service - in an > area which > is not directly education then we fall outside the charitable > status. > Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened or is > happening to > Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company to sell > their fee > for service IP connections and break away from the educational > section. > Again something that would put us at odds with the Library and its > donation to us. > > The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten to SCN, but > we are > in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal. > > Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this, understand the > Library's > view, have the funds and staff to support this and the software to > ensure > that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN being able to > commit > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is initialy > an > email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for > Seattle. > We were never in the free ISP business. > > I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say we cannot > discuss > these points, but we need to ensure that we can support our current > services before we branch into others. > > Steve > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > (425) 653 7353 http://www.scn.org/ > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. Victoria > freenet > > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is a great > deal. > > > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail or some > other > > web-based service to check their mail, after they have surfed the > net > > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it hard to go to > a > > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. > > > > Patrick > > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New Lease on Life" > is > > > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > > > > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dtechnology > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: > > > ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > * * > > > * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From Marilyn.Sheck at spl.org Fri Dec 21 13:53:37 2001 From: Marilyn.Sheck at spl.org (Marilyn Sheck) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:53:37 -0800 Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times Message-ID: Well said, Steve. And, YES, you are right about the library not being able to sustain your internet feed if your traffic increased. We are already having trouble with our bandwidth just with SCN in its present form combined with our own services. We would not be able to use public funds, which is what we pay for the Internet connection with, to support SCN's connection if it is more than a small fraction of our overall bandwidth usage. >>> steveg at scn.org 12/21/01 01:08PM >>> Hi Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the other hand, this is basic command style access and not FREE Internet access. I agree it would be great to offer such services, but we have address some important issues first. Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet access. 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to the Internet via our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to the Internet, then the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably. This would be followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed, because currently I have been led to believe that the Library would not be able to justify the cost of the service. This would mean that we would have to provide our own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need then to be in the Library because we are then simply taking up their limited space. So if this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the phone lines, the Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. We do not have the budget for this and we would be out of funds within months or weeks. 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as indicated that Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of worms. First lets point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a whole different set of rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are already looking at FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on the educational value of the service. As soon as we set up a competing service with a commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service - in an area which is not directly education then we fall outside the charitable status. Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened or is happening to Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company to sell their fee for service IP connections and break away from the educational section. Again something that would put us at odds with the Library and its donation to us. The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten to SCN, but we are in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal. Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this, understand the Library's view, have the funds and staff to support this and the software to ensure that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN being able to commit to supplying free full internet access for our users. Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is initialy an email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for Seattle. We were never in the free ISP business. I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say we cannot discuss these points, but we need to ensure that we can support our current services before we branch into others. Steve =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network (425) 653 7353 http://www.scn.org/ On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. Victoria freenet > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is a great deal. > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail or some other > web-based service to check their mail, after they have surfed the net > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it hard to go to a > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. > > Patrick > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New Lease on Life" is > > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dtechnology > > > > -- Doug > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' internal communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have questions about this list. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From donlogs at cablespeed.com Fri Dec 21 14:51:41 2001 From: donlogs at cablespeed.com (Don Logsdon) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:51:41 -0800 Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times References: <20011221214502.76293.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000301c18a72$0ea6c5c0$f3ccff40@cablespeed.com> There is a free net -- dialup connection -- for the puget sound area. The community computer, here where I live, has been using it for well over a year, and while it gets plugged up once in a while -- by and large it is available for log on both day and night... Not only is the service reliable it is completely free of advertising... Check it out - http://www.nocharge.com Don Logsdon (206) 521-9086 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steveg at scn.org Fri Dec 21 15:23:56 2001 From: steveg at scn.org (Steve Guest) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:23:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <20011221214502.76293.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patrick Agreed - low cost affordable internet access would be great. In fact,in the WA area we are lucky we still have a few options for free service. They are going fast. The options are NetZero/Juno which have a 10 hour per month free but you must click some ads to stay alive. Then we have dotnow, address, massmednet and qualguard offering variations on the free service theme. Then finally we have NoCharge which is still here in WA alive and kicking, but all its other operations seem to have shut down for one reason or another. Lastly nopay, who were the other free WA ISP, seem to have stopped their free service without an announcement. The web site is there, but nothing about the access. If you want better service we have accesscheap at $60 a year and 17 others at under $100 a year. The challenge is that we, SCN, should not be seen to push one service over any other. Apart from the possible liability issues, we cannot and must guarentee thrid party connections. It depends what you are willing to put up with. Most of these have banner or pop ads, no matter what the fee size and structure. Steve On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > I think the point I had was low-cost internet service. Affordable > internet service. > > Not that I think SCN should go there. If it did, that would be nice, > but that would be a long way off anyway. > > It would be nice if Seattle had a non-profit internet service. In the > sense that it was paid for by the local community, users, and not > developed to make lots of money. > > Affordable internet service is an issue, not computers. Computers aer > cheap, free, but service to the internet is not free, nor is it > cheap. > > Unless you go to the library and use it for free. > > Having internet service for $104 a year would really put it within > the reach of a lot of people. Currently, at $20 a month, it's a bit > expensive. > > Patrick * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 20:28:37 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:28:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011222042837.61015.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> I was unaware of access under $100 in Seattle, besides the 'free' ones with ads. And I'm not advocating SCN do it, although if it could get to that level, it would be great. IF, and a big IF, SCN were to consider going 'commercial' at a low cost to users, while still having the free text-based dial-up access, it would have to decide what infrastructure and fees would be needed. Paying customers having PPP, would be subsidizing those who can't afford it at all and have to stick to a text-based dial-up like is presently available. I'm sure a pricing structure could be met if SCN were to keep itself a small shop like Eskimo.com, which is run by one guy out of his house. There are many successful online companies that are doing well, even after the dotcom crash because they are realistic and keep costs down, not becoming cash flushed beomoths who build the storefront first and think the customers will come. Many of these companies are still around because they operate like they did before things went crazy with the surge of online commerce or internet companies. As you said, there are companies that are providing low-cost service. It would be nice if we could list these on our website. While we are at it, seattlewireless.net looks promising. This would truly be free service to many who have a wi-fi or Apple AirPort card in their computers. Patrick --- Steve Guest wrote: > Patrick > Agreed - low cost affordable internet access would be great. In > fact,in > the WA area we are lucky we still have a few options for free > service. > They are going fast. The options are NetZero/Juno which have a 10 > hour > per month free but you must click some ads to stay alive. Then we > have > dotnow, address, massmednet and qualguard offering variations on > the free > service theme. Then finally we have NoCharge which is still here > in WA > alive and kicking, but all its other operations seem to have shut > down for > one reason or another. Lastly nopay, who were the other free WA > ISP, seem > to have stopped their free service without an announcement. The > web site > is there, but nothing about the access. > > If you want better service we have accesscheap at $60 a year and 17 > others > at under $100 a year. The challenge is that we, SCN, should not be > seen > to push one service over any other. Apart from the possible > liability > issues, we cannot and must guarentee thrid party connections. > > It depends what you are willing to put up with. Most of these have > banner > or pop ads, no matter what the fee size and structure. > > Steve > > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > I think the point I had was low-cost internet service. Affordable > > internet service. > > > > Not that I think SCN should go there. If it did, that would be > nice, > > but that would be a long way off anyway. > > > > It would be nice if Seattle had a non-profit internet service. In > the > > sense that it was paid for by the local community, users, and not > > developed to make lots of money. > > > > Affordable internet service is an issue, not computers. Computers > aer > > cheap, free, but service to the internet is not free, nor is it > > cheap. > > > > Unless you go to the library and use it for free. > > > > Having internet service for $104 a year would really put it > within > > the reach of a lot of people. Currently, at $20 a month, it's a > bit > > expensive. > > > > Patrick > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 20:35:06 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:35:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011222043506.55194.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Steve and Marlyn, I totally agree with everything. Thought I'd bring up the topic of the Victoria service, just to view things from another angle. If SCN were to do it, it would have to turn it's switch from a donation and grant related status and delve into the commercial realm. My main point is that computers can be had for free or at a very low cost, however access to the internet is often an expensive proposition. And it's a pain-in-the-butt to go to the library and hope to get online. Even as the libraries open, the terminals are swamped. People should have access to low-cost internet access. Many people don't have this option even if they have a P90 or PowerMac at their disposal. Patrick --- Marilyn Sheck wrote: > Well said, Steve. And, YES, you are right about the library not > being able > to sustain your internet feed if your traffic increased. We are > already having > trouble with our bandwidth just with SCN in its present form > combined with > our own services. We would not be able to use public funds, which > is what > we pay for the Internet connection with, to support SCN's > connection if it > is more than a small fraction of our overall bandwidth usage. > > >>> steveg at scn.org 12/21/01 01:08PM >>> > Hi > Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the other hand, > this is > basic command style access and not FREE Internet access. I agree > it would > be great to offer such services, but we have address some important > issues > first. > > Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet access. > > 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to the > Internet via > our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to the > Internet, then > the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably. This would be > followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed, because > currently I > have been led to believe that the Library would not be able to > justify the > cost of the service. This would mean that we would have to provide > our > own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need then to be in > the > Library because we are then simply taking up their limited space. > So if > this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the phone lines, > the > Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. We do not > have the > budget for this and we would be out of funds within months or > weeks. > > 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as indicated that > Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of worms. First > lets > point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a whole different > set of > rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are already > looking at > FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on the > educational value > of the service. As soon as we set up a competing service with a > commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service - in an > area which > is not directly education then we fall outside the charitable > status. > Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened or is > happening to > Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company to sell > their fee > for service IP connections and break away from the educational > section. > Again something that would put us at odds with the Library and its > donation to us. > > The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten to SCN, but > we are > in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal. > > Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this, understand the > Library's > view, have the funds and staff to support this and the software to > ensure > that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN being able to > commit > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is initialy > an > email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for > Seattle. > We were never in the free ISP business. > > I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say we cannot > discuss > these points, but we need to ensure that we can support our current > services before we branch into others. > > Steve > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > (425) 653 7353 http://www.scn.org/ > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. Victoria > freenet > > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is a great > deal. > > > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail or some > other > > web-based service to check their mail, after they have surfed the > net > > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it hard to go to > a > > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. > > > > Patrick > > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New Lease on Life" > is > > > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > > > > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dtechnology > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: > > > ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > * * > > > * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > * * * > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' > internal > communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have > questions > about this list. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 20:38:55 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:38:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <000301c18a72$0ea6c5c0$f3ccff40@cablespeed.com> Message-ID: <20011222043855.62539.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, but it doesn't allow you to use your own mail programs, and no free web space for websites, nor is there any indication it will be around forever. If it works, it works, but tomorrow it may not be around. And there is no indication that it will stick around. Patrick --- Don Logsdon wrote: > There is a free net -- dialup connection -- for the puget sound > area. > The community computer, here where I live, has been using it for > well over > a year, and while it gets plugged up once in a while -- by and > large it is > available for log on both day and night... > > Not only is the service reliable it is completely free of > advertising... > > Check it out - http://www.nocharge.com > > Don Logsdon > (206) 521-9086 > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From janossz at scn.org Sat Dec 22 11:11:03 2001 From: janossz at scn.org (Janos Szablya) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:11:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <20011222043855.62539.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This assumes that WE will be around forever..... Janos On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > Yes, but it doesn't allow you to use your own mail programs, and no > free web space for websites, nor is there any indication it will be > around forever. If it works, it works, but tomorrow it may not be > around. And there is no indication that it will stick around. > > Patrick > > --- Don Logsdon wrote: > > There is a free net -- dialup connection -- for the puget sound > > area. > > The community computer, here where I live, has been using it for > > well over > > a year, and while it gets plugged up once in a while -- by and > > large it is > > available for log on both day and night... > > > > Not only is the service reliable it is completely free of > > advertising... > > > > Check it out - http://www.nocharge.com > > > > Don Logsdon > > (206) 521-9086 > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 11:32:43 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:32:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011222193243.52343.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Janos, Don't worry. Some good things are happening at SCN and more is happening now than has happened in SCN's history. I saw the new site redesign concepts last night when I met with a web designer. They look pretty incredible and will be posted soon for public viewing. Also, a new web server went up with few hitches and the backend is being cleaned up thanks to JJ and Martin who have done a great deal of work. They deserves lots of accolades. New services are coming up for SCN user websites: Stock CGIs and PHP is available. A new email program to rival other web mail programs is coming into being. I am hoping that if things be cleaned up enough, that regular FTP service be established for users so they can FTP to their directories easily. Free webspace with no ads will drive more traffic (eyeballs) and users to SCN. Patrick Seattle Community Network --- Janos Szablya wrote: > > This assumes that WE will be around forever..... > > Janos > > > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > Yes, but it doesn't allow you to use your own mail programs, and > no > > free web space for websites, nor is there any indication it will > be > > around forever. If it works, it works, but tomorrow it may not be > > around. And there is no indication that it will stick around. > > > > Patrick > > > > --- Don Logsdon wrote: > > > There is a free net -- dialup connection -- for the puget > sound > > > area. > > > The community computer, here where I live, has been using it > for > > > well over > > > a year, and while it gets plugged up once in a while -- by and > > > large it is > > > available for log on both day and night... > > > > > > Not only is the service reliable it is completely free of > > > advertising... > > > > > > Check it out - http://www.nocharge.com > > > > > > Don Logsdon > > > (206) 521-9086 > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: > > > ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > * * > > > * * * > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Thu Dec 27 01:42:47 2001 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 01:42:47 -0800 Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times References: Message-ID: <001c01c18ec9$7a268500$7152fea9@desktop> The key part of Steve Guest's message is the following: ____________________ "I do not see SCN being able to commit to supplying free full internet access for our users. Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is initialy an email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for Seattle. We were never in the free ISP business." _____________________ The above contains a Catch 22 element. (1) We do not have the funds and staff to support a full ISP (including standard graphical functions); and (2) we will continue to offer a very limited type of service and so we will NEVER attract or bring in the funds to support such a full ISP service. Rather than mere speculation, it will be necessary to get a proper accounting (indepent) to determine 1. How much funding it would take to operate an independent, proper ISP. (Staff and hardware) 2. How many paying subscribers it would take (at $10/month) to support such an ISP service. (This price would under cut almost all other services.) 3. How many low-income subscriptions could be offered for little or no cost under this full ISP scenario. If the answers to 1 and 2 are positive (i.e., it would be doable to get enough subscribers to fully fund all aspects of a complete ISP service), THEN it would be appropriate to discuss abandoning the tax-free status and switch to a for-profit service. By the way, the tax-free status comes at a cost: SCNA cannot lobby. SCNA, like Eugene was, is severely limited by the IRS as to what low-income services it can offer and as to what philosophical stance it can follow actively. The library connection also has similar costs. If SCNA actually did become active (read "controversial"), the library could no longer provide free connection. As Steve pointed out, "(SCN)A is initialy an email and maillist site." The design of the organization is limited by that earlier small mission. Keeping the library "sponsorship" and the subsequent tax-free status prevent SCNA from being a desireable ISP and from being an effective community influence. Until an independent accounting can answer 1, 2, & 3, there is no way to describe SCNA's potential or future. It can only continue to drift. P.S. About the statement: "We were never in the free ISP business." Actually, that is exactly what we used to tell everyone -- that we WERE a free ISP. ----- Original Message ----- From: Marilyn Sheck To: scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 1:53 PM Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times Well said, Steve. And, YES, you are right about the library not being able to sustain your internet feed if your traffic increased. We are already having trouble with our bandwidth just with SCN in its present form combined with our own services. We would not be able to use public funds, which is what we pay for the Internet connection with, to support SCN's connection if it is more than a small fraction of our overall bandwidth usage. >>> steveg at scn.org 12/21/01 01:08PM >>> Hi Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the other hand, this is basic command style access and not FREE Internet access. I agree it would be great to offer such services, but we have address some important issues first. Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet access. 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to the Internet via our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to the Internet, then the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably. This would be followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed, because currently I have been led to believe that the Library would not be able to justify the cost of the service. This would mean that we would have to provide our own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need then to be in the Library because we are then simply taking up their limited space. So if this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the phone lines, the Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. We do not have the budget for this and we would be out of funds within months or weeks. 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as indicated that Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of worms. First lets point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a whole different set of rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are already looking at FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on the educational value of the service. As soon as we set up a competing service with a commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service - in an area which is not directly education then we fall outside the charitable status. Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened or is happening to Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company to sell their fee for service IP connections and break away from the educational section. Again something that would put us at odds with the Library and its donation to us. The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten to SCN, but we are in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal. Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this, understand the Library's view, have the funds and staff to support this and the software to ensure that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN being able to commit to supplying free full internet access for our users. Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is initialy an email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for Seattle. We were never in the free ISP business. I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say we cannot discuss these points, but we need to ensure that we can support our current services before we branch into others. Steve =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network (425) 653 7353 http://www.scn.org/ On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. Victoria freenet > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is a great deal. > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail or some other > web-based service to check their mail, after they have surfed the net > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it hard to go to a > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. > > Patrick > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New Lease on Life" is > > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dtechnology > > > > -- Doug > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' internal communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have questions about this list. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at scn.org Thu Dec 27 21:56:10 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 21:56:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <001c01c18ec9$7a268500$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: And just who is 'emailer1'? === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Thu Dec 27 22:32:11 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 22:32:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: anti war students Message-ID: <200112280632.WAA23721@scn.org> FYI... Hey Anti-War Students! There are only 3 final planning meetings for the NW Student Anti-War Conference planning meetings before the actual conference on Sat-sun Jan 12-13. We need more students to help us organize this awesome conference. Information about the conference is below. Sat. Dec 29 5 pm University of Washington, Gould 117 (at 15th and 40th) Mon Jan 7, 6 pm, " " " " " " " Thurs, Jan 10, 6 pm, " " " " " " - Ramy ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Ramy Khalil" To: 911peace at scn.org Subject: NORTHWEST STUDENT ANTI-WAR CONFERENCE Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 20:00:15 TO ALL STUDENTS IN THE NORTHWEST CAMPAIGNING AGAINST THE WAR, RACISM, AND THE CRACKDOWN ON OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES: THIS IS THE 2ND CALL FOR A NORTHWEST STUDENT ANTI-WAR CONFERENCE! Please forward widely. Since September 11th there have been at least 4 regional student anti-war conferences around the country. The high attendance at these conferences indicates the value of a Northwest student conference to the anti-war movement. We have already gotten a great response from the University of Washington, Seattle Central Community College, Nova High School, Northwest High School, Garfield High School, Western Washington University, University of Idaho, SCCC AND UW Socialist Alternative, the Olympia Peace and Justice Alliance, and many others. A reporter from a major Oregon newspaper has already told us that they want to cover the conference. These regional student conferences are demonstrating to the government and the public that there is a growing tide of opposition to the war, racism, and the attacks on our civil liberties. A conference in the Northwest would be a forum to share experiences, discuss the next steps for the movement, share literature and information, and plan joint protests. A press conference to increase publicity could also be an important part of the conference. DATE CHANGE: The conference organizing committee and students on various campuses has decided that the weekend of Dec 1st & 2nd is too soon to mobilize all the students from around the NW who would like to attend. It is too close to Thanksgiving and final exams for many students. Therefore the dates have been changed to Saturday and Sunday, January 12th & 13th. However, the agenda, times, and organizational structure are still just proposals, and subject to change and input. LOCATION: University of Washington, Seattle, WA; rooms TBA CURRENTLY PROPOSED AGENDA: SATURDAY, JANUARY 12th 9:00 - 11:00 Registration / breakfast* 10:00 - 10:50 Agenda-setting meeting** 11:00 - 11:20 Welcoming remarks / Amend & adopt the agenda 11:20 - 12:00 Opening rally, speaker TBA 12:00 - 1:30 "What^Rs going on with the war? Where do we go from here?" Vote on our "points of unity." 1:30 - 2:30 Lunch / Press Conference 2:30 - 6:30 Building a NW Student Anti-war Coalition (15 minute break at 4:30) 6:30 - 7:30 Dinner 7:30 - 9:00 Educational forum, speakers TBA 9:00 Party!! (location TBA) SUNDAY, JANUARY 13th 10:00 - 12:00 Movement-Building Workshops: - setting up coalitions - organizing rallies, teach-ins, debates, etc. - broadening the anti-war movement - working groups to implement decisions made on Saturday food, photocopies, etc. Vegetarian and vegan options will be available. * The organizing committee is proposing that 1 person from each campus-based anti-war coalition or organization arrive 1.5 hours early to register and participate in setting the agenda proposal. DELEGATES: The organizing committee is proposing that each college or high school elect up to 10 delegates. Voting at the conference will be restricted to these delegates. Having a limited number of delegates is the only way to be fair and democratic to people travelling from far away. Otherwise the Seattle anti-war coalitions who only have to drive 15 minutes will be over-represented compared to people who have to drive 7 hours. Anyone who wants to attend is welcome, but decision-making and voting would be done by up to 10 delegates from each campus based coalition or organization against the war (which would include anyone active in those coalitions, whether they are a student or not). If no one expresses opposition to this delegate structure to be fair to people who have to drive far distances, then campus organizations should begin electing up to 10 delegates to represent them. REGISTER TO ATTEND: If you are interested in attending the NW Student Anti-war conference, it would be very helpful to get some information about who is attending from your school, so that we will know how much food, beverages, literature, and housing will be needed. A simple registration form is included at the end of the email. This information will help our organizing efforts, but it is not required in order to attend. WAYS YOU CAN HELP: Some of the areas that we need help with are organizing workshops, housing, food & drinks, and, above all, publicizing the conference and getting students to come. If you can offer housing or are able to help out with organizing housing, please contact Dan at (206) 725-9327 or nwstudents at hotmail.com It would be particularly helpful if you could forward this email on to any student activists who might be interested, and to any appropriate list serves. If you know of any really good speakers that you can get, or if you want to run a workshop, we would love to hear about it. Also, we need a Seattle area resident to volunteer to host a party on Saturday night, January 12th. THE ORGANIZING COMMITTEE: The organizing committee for the NW Anti-war conference would really like your help! Anyone who wants to help organize the conference, from anywhere in the NW, can be on the organizing committee. We meet every Monday at Seattle Central Community College at Broadway and Pine on the 4th floor in room 4105, starting Monday, November 26th. (We need to meet somewhere else once the school closes down for Winter Break. Instead of meeting on the Mondays on Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve we will be meeting those Saturdays at 3 pm, location TBA.) You can always contact Amanda at (206) 937-6089 or surfbyronbay at hotmail.com. She will connect you with any other students who are in your area so that you can meet to discuss in person, and she will relay your suggestions to the rest of the organizing committee and vice versa. If it would be helpful, we can organize a conference call. POSTER/LEAFLET: Various posters and half-size leaflets that you can print out are available at students.washington.edu/~mallen22 Please hang them up and/or pass them out at your school! SEND IN YOUR PROPOSALS: If you or your organization have any specific proposals for building the NW Student Anti-war Coalition, to be discussed and voted on at the conference, please submit them by January 5th, to the organizing committee contact person Amanda: surfbyronbay at hotmail.com. Any proposals will be accepted for consideration at the conference, but those submitted in advance will be discussed and voted on first, and the organizing committee will compile them for distribution. HOUSING/CONFERENCE REGISTIRATION FORM Only one registration form is preferred from each school, although all forms are welcome. If you know other activists at your school or area, please make arrangements to have one person be in charge of registering all the students on your campus and include all of them in the one form. This makes our job much easier in Seattle. Then forward this email to nwstudents at hotmail.com and fill in the following information. This form is very helpful, but not required in order to attend the conference. YOUR FULL NAME: SCHOOL, CITY, & STATE: AREA CODE & PHONE NUMBER: EMAIL ADDRESS: CAMPUS COALITION OR ORGANIZATION(S) (if applicable): DO YOU NEED HOUSING? IF SO, FOR WHAT NIGHTS? EXACTLY HOW MANY PEOPLE FROM YOUR CAMPUS ARE YOU REQUESTING HOUSING FOR? (Please include yourself in the total number.) ANY HOUSING PREFERENCES (non-smoking, gender)? CAN YOU PROVIDE HOUSING? IF SO, FOR WHAT NIGHTS? ADDRESS, APT/DORM # (only applicable for Seattle residents): ANY HOUSING PREFERENCES (non-smoking, gender)? DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS OR COMMENTS ABOUT THE AGENDA, TIMES, OR CONFERENCE IN GENERAL? If you are able to help out with organizing housing, please contact Dan at nwstudents at hotmail.com or (206) 725-9327. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Thu Dec 27 23:01:35 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:01:35 -0800 Subject: SCN: Cyberlaw Message-ID: <3C2BA84F.8333.1A1A495@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ==================== (Carl S. Kaplan, NY Times)---What happened in cyberlaw during the past year that was significant and enduring -- or at least interesting? That's the question Cyber Law Journal put to several well-regarded law professors and legal practitioners. Their answers ran the gamut from the government's legal response to the Sept. 11 attacks to Hollywood's impressive victory in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit in the DeCSS copyright case. As in years past, the common element in the experts' responses seemed to be a sense that Internet law -- and cyberspace itself -- is still unfolding and that new battle lines are forming even as old conflicts are settled. Following are edited excerpts from e-mails written by six legal experts about the year's most important developments in law and technology. =================== Barry Steinhardt, American Civil Liberties Union, presides over the A.C.L.U.'s Privacy Task Force. 1. The passage of the ironically named "USA Patriot Act," which has already dramatically increased the surveillance of the Internet and which, by and large, removes the check and balance of meaningful, judicial scrutiny from the government interception of electronic expression. 2. The signing of the Council of Europe's "Cybercrime Convention" by the U.S. and dozens of other nations, which would force the signatory nations (ratification by the Senate is necessary in the U.S.) to use draconian means to spy on their own residents -- even when the action being "investigated" is perfectly legal in the country that is required to do the spying. The U.S., through which most of the world's Internet traffic flows, could be turned into the secret computer police for nations ranging from France to Bulgaria. 3. Counterbalancing the Council of Europe treaty is the decision by U.S. District Court Judge Jeremy Fogel of California in Yahoo v. LICRA. Judge Fogel ruled that a French court decision censoring speech hosted by an American ISP could not be enforced in the U.S., when the speech is protected under the First Amendment. ================== Cass Sunstein, University of Chicago Law School, author of "Republic.com" (Oxford University Press, 2001). 1. The non-breakup of Microsoft. 2. The growing belief that copyright law and the First Amendment are on a collision course. When some people's copyright protections mean that other people can't say what they want to say, there is going to be a constitutional issue. The issue has been neglected for decades. It isn't being neglected anymore. =================== Pamela Samuelson, UC Berkeley School of Law, co-authored a friend-of-the-court brief attacking the DMCA in the Corley case. She also is a member of the Board of Directors of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, which represented Corley on his appeal. 1. The "USA Patriot Act" obviously had many dimensions, but it included some very important new rules about the government's access to information about individual users on the Internet. For example, in authorizing the government to gather information about electronic mail sent or received by individuals, Congress said that investigators don't need to prove probable cause that the targeted person has committed or is about to commit a crime. The law also lowered the standards for surveillance of foreign nationals and made some computer crimes into terrorism offenses. These rules are not only important in themselves, but they have implications for other government efforts to extend regulation to the Internet. 2. The Microsoft decision was a very important ruling in 2001, not so much (as it turned out) because of its effect on Microsoft (which is trying to settle the litigation on terms very favorable to it), but because of its affirmation of the continued viability of antitrust law in the Internet and high technology environment. It was a very well- reasoned decision. 3. Less noticed by the press and the public were the two DeCSS cases, one a California trade secrecy case [DVD-CCA v. Bunner], and the other the first federal appellate court ruling on the Digital Millennium Copyright Act's anti-circumvention rules [Universal City v. Reimerdes]. The California appellate court overturned on First Amendment grounds a lower court ruling that someone who posted DeCSS (a program that bypasses the content scrambling system software used on DVD movie disks) had misappropriated CSS as a trade secret. I would have been more skeptical than the court was about the viability of a trade secrecy claim even against the author of DeCSS, let alone against subsequent posters of the information. But I agree that there are serious First Amendment problems with saying that someone who did not misappropriate a trade secret can be enjoined from posting the information on the Internet once the information has been made available. The Universal City Studios case was the first suit to pose a constitutional challenge to the DMCA anti-circumvention rules. Eric Corley, a journalist, posted DeCSS on his magazine's Web site as part of his coverage of the controversy about the program and later linked to sites where the code was posted. The trial and appellate courts both ruled that posting and linking to DeCSS were illegal under the DMCA. The motion picture industry won this round of the constitutional fight over the DMCA, but there will be other rounds, and I believe courts will come to appreciate the constitutional deficiencies of the DMCA, even if they didn't in the Corley case. ================= Charles S. Sims, Proskauer Rose, successfully represented eight Hollywood studios in their lawsuit against Web publisher Eric Corley for his posting of (and linking to) a DVD-cracking code prohibited under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. You won't be surprised that, in my view, one of the most notable copyright developments was the firm rejection by the judicial branch, the executive branch, and the Copyright Office of the endlessly repeated arguments against the Digital Millennium Copyright Act by the Electronic Frontier Foundation and its allies. The Second Circuit's recent refutation of those arguments in the University City Studios case, the Justice Department's strong defense of the law in the DMCA and Sklyarov cases, Skylarov's agreement to testify against his employer in a DMCA criminal prosecution, Judge Garrett Brown's recognition that Princeton Professor Ed Felton had not been stifled by the DMCA, the Register of Copyright's announcement that the EFF had failed to back up its arguments with any evidence whatever and [Second Circuit] Judge Jon. O. Newman's characterization of the EFF's position as "extravagant" -- all those mean that the DMCA is safe, a recognized and stable part of U.S. intellectual property law, and a fact of life that hackers and pirates will have to contend with. ================ Ivan Fong, senior counsel at General Electric Corporation, the company's chief e-commerce and privacy lawyer. Into the obvious category I would put (1) the refusal of a California federal district court to enforce a French court order requiring Yahoo to prevent French residents from viewing Nazi memorabilia from its auction site, thereby stemming (for now at least) an unfortunate trend in which several countries are attempting to assert extraterritorial jurisdiction over Internet content; (2) the decision by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit to enjoin Napster's online music-swapping functionality which perhaps marked one of those rare moments when the public (apart from lawyers) suddenly realized that intellectual property rights sometimes do matter; and (3) Barnesand Noble.com's victory over Amazon.com in an appeal of Amazon's claim that Barnes & Noble infringed on Amazon's one-click shopping patent, thereby bringing a ray of commonsense into the otherwise murky world of business- method patents. Into the not-so-obvious category, I would place the increasing number of cases addressing electronic privacy issues in the workplace. This is an important issue that affects nearly everyone who works, and it erupted in an unusual way this summer when a contingent of federal judges refused to implement a proposal by the policy-making arm of the federal judiciary to monitor workplace electronic communications. Also worth noting were the cases that dismissed claims brought against companies such as DoubleClick and others for their use of "cookies," small files that a Web site operator can use to (among other things) recognize users when they return to the site. Last year around this time, many businesses were concerned that these cases would lead to a wave of litigation over the use of cookies -- those fears now appear to have dissipated (though in Europe strict restrictions on the use of cookies have been proposed). ================= Ian Ballon Manatt, Phelps & Phillips, the author of "E-Commerce and Internet Law" (Glasser LegalWorks 2001). 1. The Ninth Circuit's Napster decision and the reassertion of traditional copyright law in cyberspace (the moment the lights came back on after the power failure). 2. I was struck by news reports that Osama bin Laden was using steganography to encode messages to terrorists on publicly- accessible Web sites. 3. First Amendment issues arise much more frequently in the area of e-commerce than in the traditional commercial world because a Web site, in addition to constituting a storefront, is a form of publication and a forum for speech. The decision by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit in the Corley DeCSS case was one of the most significant opinions of the year. In two weeks, a similar group of experts will look into their crystal balls for 2002. Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From worldnettrading at consultant.com Fri Dec 28 13:32:57 2001 From: worldnettrading at consultant.com (THEBESTPR.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:32:57 Subject: SCN: View Systems Responds to Worldwide Demand for Concealed Weapons Detectors And Facial Recognition Message-ID: <200112282032.MAA24551@scn.org> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE View Systems Responds to Worldwide Demand for Concealed Weapons Detectors And Facial Recognition ENGLEWOOD, Colo., Dec 27, 2001 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- The growth of the last quarter of 2001 as well as the numerous worldwide requests in View Systems (OTCBB: VYST) surveillance technologies and its new products made it necessary for the structuring of an updated training program for dealers and agents worldwide. The new products integrate Facial Recognition and/or License Tag Recognition. The training program will detail the new technologies and their engineering implementation and will address in particular the marketing and sales aspects. View Systems training 2002 program is in response to the September 11 events and to the increase in the surveillance business that View Systems has experienced in the last quarter of 2001 and has indication of growth well throughout the year 2002. View Systems breakthrough technology that enables remote access to your video security cameras from any location in the world via standard telecommunication lines has received numerous requests from the worldwide surveillance market. The training will be held in Baltimore, Maryland and will address security solutions for Commercial Facilities, such as airports, malls, business buildings and banks. In addition, the training will address issues in Remote Monitoring business and remote surveillance. The line of products that will be presented include: The SecureScan(TM) 2000. This product is a concealed weapons detector (CWD). SecureScan(TM) 2000 is a walk-through detector which uses advanced magnetics technology to accurately pinpoint the location, size, and number of concealed weapons, such as knives and guns. Personal artifacts such as coins, keys or belt buckles will not set off the alarm. The ViewMAXX Line of product a modular and scalable 4-16 camera systems capable of up to 240 Pictures per Seconds. The Secure View 4 integrated with Facial recognition. FaceIt(R) is a core enabling technology that allows computers to recognize human faces and that has been incorporated into a variety of solutions and applications by Visionics' business partners. It adds a powerful dimension to CCTV in that it automates functions that are otherwise extremely difficult for people to perform, i.e., watching video streams for extended periods and remembering large numbers of unfamiliar faces. In addition, FaceIt(R) improves the deterrence and investigative capabilities of CCTV systems and provides proactive monitoring capabilities which in the past did not exist. For More Information please contact Mr. Gunther Than toll free 877-843-0987 and please visit the website http://www.viewsystems.com -OR- info at viewsystems.com Brokers and Analysts: Columbia Financial Group, 888/301/6271 This mail is never sent unsolicited. This message is being sent to you in compliance with the proposed Federal legislation for commercial Email (S.1618-Section 301) "Pursuant to Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by submitting a request to remove to: worldnettrading at usa.com. You will be removed promptly...Thank You, and sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused. The statements made in this release, which are not historical facts, contain certain forward-looking statements concerning potential developments affecting the business, prospects, financial condition and other aspects of the company to which this release pertains. The actual results of the specific items described in this release, and the company's operations generally, may differ materially from what is projected in such forward-looking statements. Although such statements are based upon the best judgments of management of the company as of the date of this release, significant deviations in magnitude, timing and other factors may result from business risks and uncertainties including, without limitation, the company's dependence on third parties, market conditions, technical factors, the availability of outside capital and receipt of revenues, and other factors, many of which are beyond the control of the company. The company disclaims any obligation to update information contained in any forward looking statement. This publication is a press release on behalf of the issuing Company mentioned in this press release and may not be construed as investment advice. This press release does not provide an analysis of the Company's complete financial position and is not a solicitation to purchase or sell securities. This publication may contain forward-looking statements as that term is defined in the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Such statements are based on management's current expectations and are subject to a number of factors and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those described in the Company's Marketing materials and filing documents. Readers should consult with their own independent tax, business and financial advisors with respect to any investment, including any contemplated investment in the above-mentioned Company. All information contained in this press release should be independently verified with the above-mentioned Company and an independent securities analyst. The Publisher, its affiliates, officers, directors, subsidiaries and agents (collectively, the "publisher" of this press release have been compensated (~$500.00) for their services. In preparing this press release, the Publisher has relied upon information received from the Company, although believed to be reliable, cannot be guaranteed. This press release is not an endorsement of the Company by the Publisher. The Publisher is not responsible for any claims made by the Company. Investing in low priced securities, such as those of the Company mentioned in this report, is not suitable for everyone. You should independently investigate and fully understand all risks. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at groupworks.org Sat Dec 29 04:00:54 2001 From: steve at groupworks.org (Steve Guest) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 04:00:54 -0800 Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times References: Message-ID: <008601c19060$79eb2bc0$d9a7e13f@dellxpsr350> Good question. I did send a polite request for the sender to identify themselves during another exchange, which they never did? Still they are using netzero which is rapidly showing that it too cannot stay in the "free" internet business even with Juno's help. When the TV ads start to appear you know they are in trouble - as with FreeINet. Steve =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network (425) 653 7353 http://www.scn.org/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Johnson" To: "emailer1" Cc: "Marilyn Sheck" ; ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 9:56 PM Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > And just who is 'emailer1'? > > === JJ ============================================================= > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' internal > communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have questions > about this list. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at groupworks.org Sat Dec 29 04:43:48 2001 From: steve at groupworks.org (Steve Guest) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 04:43:48 -0800 Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times References: <001c01c18ec9$7a268500$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: <009201c19066$780f0a00$d9a7e13f@dellxpsr350> Well we could debate this for months. Let me clear up a few things first: 1) We are technically an ISP, but since Microsoft started putting the connect to the internet icon on its desk top the idea of what is an ISP has changed. We are an ISP which does not offer direct connection to the Internet, only to a server on the Internet. We were and still are a founding member of Washington Association of Internet Service Providers (WAISP) which is a lobbying group. But due to the failure of most of the local ISPs to either survive or not get eaten by the national big fish, WAISP could soon die from a lack of membership. So it depends on your definition of an ISP. 2) As far as the costs for an ISP - these are well know and we have investigated them. If we were to take NWNexos for example, it had a budget of several millions when WindStar bought it and still it failed to be profitable. There are way too many factors to make this a simple calculation. We would also change our profile and start to impact others like wolfnet, drizzle and eskimo. There are several ISPs open to offers in the area, go look at their books if you think this is a viable proposition. From my costings, I worked out that we would need about $5-10 Million a year for SCN's operations and service to be "professional", plus a major culture shift. Which is way too many $10 customers. 3) I am confused by the 501(c)3 comment. Lobbying is not a high priority for SCNA at present. The thing that Eugene did, as far as I can see, is that it needed money and decided to do a fee for service. They didn't read the small print though. Any fee for service is fine if the service is educational, but as a connection to the Internet, it is deemed by the IRS to not be educational. They currently agree that the service is educational, but the connection to the internet is offered by 100s of other vendors which are commercial. Therefore this breaks the 501(c)3 agreement with the IRS. Plus it brings us back to the first point - we are a connection to a "service" which is educational and on the Internet. Personally, if I thought a for-profit with low cost for service would make a profit, I would be doing that rather than working for SCN as a volunteer CEO. Plus I think I know where I could have gotten a few "staff" that might wish to work for me rather than volunteering. So if running a cheap access ISP were profitable, then where are they? They came and most went with the dot.coms. Steve =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network (425) 653 7353 http://www.scn.org/ ----- Original Message ----- From: emailer1 To: Marilyn Sheck ; scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 1:42 AM Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times The key part of Steve Guest's message is the following: ____________________ "I do not see SCN being able to commit to supplying free full internet access for our users. Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is initialy an email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for Seattle. We were never in the free ISP business." _____________________ The above contains a Catch 22 element. (1) We do not have the funds and staff to support a full ISP (including standard graphical functions); and (2) we will continue to offer a very limited type of service and so we will NEVER attract or bring in the funds to support such a full ISP service. Rather than mere speculation, it will be necessary to get a proper accounting (indepent) to determine 1. How much funding it would take to operate an independent, proper ISP. (Staff and hardware) 2. How many paying subscribers it would take (at $10/month) to support such an ISP service. (This price would under cut almost all other services.) 3. How many low-income subscriptions could be offered for little or no cost under this full ISP scenario. If the answers to 1 and 2 are positive (i.e., it would be doable to get enough subscribers to fully fund all aspects of a complete ISP service), THEN it would be appropriate to discuss abandoning the tax-free status and switch to a for-profit service. By the way, the tax-free status comes at a cost: SCNA cannot lobby. SCNA, like Eugene was, is severely limited by the IRS as to what low-income services it can offer and as to what philosophical stance it can follow actively. The library connection also has similar costs. If SCNA actually did become active (read "controversial"), the library could no longer provide free connection. As Steve pointed out, "(SCN)A is initialy an email and maillist site." The design of the organization is limited by that earlier small mission. Keeping the library "sponsorship" and the subsequent tax-free status prevent SCNA from being a desireable ISP and from being an effective community influence. Until an independent accounting can answer 1, 2, & 3, there is no way to describe SCNA's potential or future. It can only continue to drift. P.S. About the statement: "We were never in the free ISP business." Actually, that is exactly what we used to tell everyone -- that we WERE a free ISP. ----- Original Message ----- From: Marilyn Sheck To: scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 1:53 PM Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times Well said, Steve. And, YES, you are right about the library not being able to sustain your internet feed if your traffic increased. We are already having trouble with our bandwidth just with SCN in its present form combined with our own services. We would not be able to use public funds, which is what we pay for the Internet connection with, to support SCN's connection if it is more than a small fraction of our overall bandwidth usage. >>> steveg at scn.org 12/21/01 01:08PM >>> Hi Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the other hand, this is basic command style access and not FREE Internet access. I agree it would be great to offer such services, but we have address some important issues first. Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet access. 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to the Internet via our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to the Internet, then the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably. This would be followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed, because currently I have been led to believe that the Library would not be able to justify the cost of the service. This would mean that we would have to provide our own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need then to be in the Library because we are then simply taking up their limited space. So if this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the phone lines, the Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. We do not have the budget for this and we would be out of funds within months or weeks. 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as indicated that Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of worms. First lets point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a whole different set of rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are already looking at FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on the educational value of the service. As soon as we set up a competing service with a commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service - in an area which is not directly education then we fall outside the charitable status. Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened or is happening to Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company to sell their fee for service IP connections and break away from the educational section. Again something that would put us at odds with the Library and its donation to us. The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten to SCN, but we are in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal. Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this, understand the Library's view, have the funds and staff to support this and the software to ensure that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN being able to commit to supplying free full internet access for our users. Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is initialy an email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for Seattle. We were never in the free ISP business. I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say we cannot discuss these points, but we need to ensure that we can support our current services before we branch into others. Steve =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network (425) 653 7353 http://www.scn.org/ On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. Victoria freenet > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is a great deal. > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail or some other > web-based service to check their mail, after they have surfed the net > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it hard to go to a > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. > > Patrick > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New Lease on Life" is > > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dtechnology > > > > -- Doug > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' internal communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have questions about this list. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at advocate.net Sat Dec 29 18:05:13 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:05:13 -0800 Subject: SCN: Pegasus Message-ID: <3C2E05D9.2920.ADF6114@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ================== Note: I've been using Pegasus for several years. If you decide to try it, I'd recommend downloading version 3.12c, at least until a few version 4 problems get ironed out... ================== (Eric Lee, Scottish Socialist Voice, excerpts)---In my column last week I mentioned an email program called Pegasus Mail. Pegasus Mail should interest socialists for a few reasons. First of all, it is absolutely free of charge. Unlike, say, Eudora, which shows advertising, Pegasus Mail is completely commercial- free as well. Second, it is not the product of some giant corporation. Pegasus Mail was written by one guy - David Harris, who lives in Dunedin, New Zealand. Harris first wrote Pegasus Mail back in 1989 when he realised that the university he was employed by needed an email program. People liked what he wrote, it got passed around, and over time became one of the most popular pieces of software ever written. He says of Pegasus Mail that "it dates from the time when the Internet was a community rather than just a highway - when people helped each other without worrying too much about who was going to pay for it." Harris doesn't appear to have made any money from this. He seems prepared to sell you a manual for the program, if you want, but that's hardly the kind of aggressive marketing one is used to these days. But Harris has apparently sold enough copies of the manuals to keep himself going, and has devoted the last 18 months to rewriting his software from scratch. Over those last few months, Harris has written tens of thousands of lines of code, made some 2,500 changes to the previous version, and in early November this year announced the long- delayed release of a much improved version of the software, Pegasus Mail version 4. It many ways, it is a superior program to the ones produced by the giant, U.S.-based corporations with their teams of hundreds of programmers. Harris claims to have invented filtering for email, and Pegasus Mail still has a very powerful mechanism for sorting out junk mail. In fact it's so powerful that you can easily use Pegasus Mail to run electronic mailing lists. While corporations like Microsoft employ teams of testers and quality control experts, Harris relies on a network of volunteer testers who are given pre-release versions of the software. All of this flies in the face of the conventional wisdom about how software works, or how the computer industry works. Bigger is not necessarily better. Software you pay for is not always better than software that is given away for free. People are sometimes prepared to devote many hours of their time in a labour of love to create a computer program that is a proudly- crafted piece of work - rather than a buggy, assembly-line produced piece of "bloatware"... According to the proponents of free market capitalism, idealists like David Harris should not even exist. They should not be writing things like this: "Giving away Pegasus Mail seemed to be a means by which I could try to make communication more accessible to a much wider range of people who needed it." If the capitalist view of the way things worked was right, Pegasus Mail should never have been created. It should never have succeeded when pitted against products produced by corporate giants. But it did. For a decade now, Pegasus Mail has been the email program of choice for millions of Internet users. Today, with the commercialisation of the web, dominated by Microsoft and AOL, the act of downloading and using Pegasus Mail is almost an act of defiance, of rebellion. >From my point of view, it's not only the best email program available today - it's the one all socialists should use, and promote. More details about Pegasus Mail can be found at www.pmail.com. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 01:37:04 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 01:37:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <009201c19066$780f0a00$d9a7e13f@dellxpsr350> Message-ID: <20011230093704.17254.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Comments follow: --- Steve Guest wrote: > Well we could debate this for months. Let me clear up a few things > first: > 1) We are technically an ISP, but since Microsoft started putting > the connect to the internet icon on its desk top the idea of what > is an ISP has changed. Microsoft tried to change the idea of what an ISP was/is, but they didn't get too far. They thought the net would take over the regular desktop operating system when they felt the threat from Netscape. Didn't happen, and I doubt the .NET idea will change much either. We are an ISP which does not offer direct > connection to the Internet, only to a server on the Internet. We > were and still are a founding member of Washington Association of > Internet Service Providers (WAISP) which is a lobbying group. But > due to the failure of most of the local ISPs to either survive or > not get eaten by the national big fish, WAISP could soon die from a > lack of membership. So it depends on your definition of an ISP. > 2) As far as the costs for an ISP - these are well know and we > have investigated them. If we were to take NWNexos for example, it > had a budget of several millions when WindStar bought it and still > it failed to be profitable. There are way too many factors to make > this a simple calculation. We would also change our profile and > start to impact others like wolfnet, drizzle and eskimo. There are > several ISPs open to offers in the area, go look at their books if > you think this is a viable proposition. From my costings, I worked > out that we would need about $5-10 Million a year for SCN's > operations and service to be "professional", plus a major culture > shift. Sounds like a dotcom budget. How many Herman Miller chairs is that? Eskimo has about 2000 customers and they pay about 200 dollars a year (being generous here), so that's about 400,000 a year. A tenth or twentieth of your costings. Not to be critical, just pointing this out. Which is way too many $10 customers. > 3) I am confused by the 501(c)3 comment. Lobbying is not a high > priority for SCNA at present. The thing that Eugene did, as far as > I can see, is that it needed money and decided to do a fee for > service. They didn't read the small print though. Any fee for > service is fine if the service is educational, but as a connection > to the Internet, it is deemed by the IRS to not be educational. > They currently agree that the service is educational, but the > connection to the internet is offered by 100s of other vendors > which are commercial. Therefore this breaks the 501(c)3 agreement > with the IRS. Plus it brings us back to the first point - we are a > connection to a "service" which is educational and on the Internet. > > Personally, if I thought a for-profit with low cost for service > would make a profit, I would be doing that rather than working for > SCN as a volunteer CEO. Plus I think I know where I could have > gotten a few "staff" that might wish to work for me rather than > volunteering. So if running a cheap access ISP were profitable, > then where are they? They came and most went with the dot.coms. This is a contradiction of a previous post where it was mentioned that there were many low-cost ISPs around the area. Again, not to be critical, just pointing this out. Also, the Victoria company: I realize that Canadian laws are different concerning non-profits, but still, the company still manages to provide accounts at about $100 dollars a year. And is that Canadian dollars? Again, it would be "nice" if SCN could find a way to provide low-cost ISP service. That is my only point. Patrick > > Steve > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > (425) 653 7353 http://www.scn.org/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: emailer1 > To: Marilyn Sheck ; scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 1:42 AM > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > > > The key part of Steve Guest's message is the following: > ____________________ > "I do not see SCN being able to commit > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is > initialy an > email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for > Seattle. > We were never in the free ISP business." > _____________________ > > The above contains a Catch 22 element. (1) We do not have the > funds and staff to support a full ISP (including standard graphical > functions); and (2) we will continue to offer a very limited type > of service and so we will NEVER attract or bring in the funds to > support such a full ISP service. > > Rather than mere speculation, it will be necessary to get a > proper accounting (indepent) to determine > 1. How much funding it would take to operate an independent, > proper ISP. (Staff and hardware) > 2. How many paying subscribers it would take (at $10/month) to > support such an ISP service. (This price would under cut almost > all other services.) > 3. How many low-income subscriptions could be offered for little > or no cost under this full ISP scenario. > > If the answers to 1 and 2 are positive (i.e., it would be doable > to get enough subscribers to fully fund all aspects of a complete > ISP service), THEN it would be appropriate to discuss abandoning > the tax-free status and switch to a for-profit service. > > By the way, the tax-free status comes at a cost: SCNA cannot > lobby. SCNA, like Eugene was, is severely limited by the IRS as to > what low-income services it can offer and as to what philosophical > stance it can follow actively. > > The library connection also has similar costs. If SCNA actually > did become active (read "controversial"), the library could no > longer provide free connection. As Steve pointed out, "(SCN)A is > initialy an email and maillist site." The design of the > organization is limited by that earlier small mission. Keeping the > library "sponsorship" and the subsequent tax-free status prevent > SCNA from being a desireable ISP and from being an effective > community influence. > > Until an independent accounting can answer 1, 2, & 3, there is no > way to describe SCNA's potential or future. It can only continue > to drift. > > P.S. > > About the statement: "We were never in the free ISP business." > > Actually, that is exactly what we used to tell everyone -- that > we WERE a free ISP. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Marilyn Sheck > To: scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 1:53 PM > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > > > Well said, Steve. And, YES, you are right about the library > not being able > to sustain your internet feed if your traffic increased. We > are already having > trouble with our bandwidth just with SCN in its present form > combined with > our own services. We would not be able to use public funds, > which is what > we pay for the Internet connection with, to support SCN's > connection if it > is more than a small fraction of our overall bandwidth usage. > > >>> steveg at scn.org 12/21/01 01:08PM >>> > Hi > Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the other > hand, this is > basic command style access and not FREE Internet access. I > agree it would > be great to offer such services, but we have address some > important issues > first. > > Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet access. > > 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to the > Internet via > our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to the > Internet, then > the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably. This would > be > followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed, because > currently I > have been led to believe that the Library would not be able to > justify the > cost of the service. This would mean that we would have to > provide our > own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need then to be > in the > Library because we are then simply taking up their limited > space. So if > this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the phone > lines, the > Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. We do > not have the > budget for this and we would be out of funds within months or > weeks. > > 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as indicated > that > Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of worms. > First lets > point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a whole > different set of > rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are already > looking at > FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on the > educational value > of the service. As soon as we set up a competing service with > a > commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service - in an > area which > is not directly education then we fall outside the charitable > status. > Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened or is > happening to > Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company to sell > their fee > for service IP connections and break away from the educational > section. > Again something that would put us at odds with the Library and > its > donation to us. > > The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten to SCN, > but we are > in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal. > > Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this, understand the > Library's > view, have the funds and staff to support this and the software > to ensure > that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN being able > to commit > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is > initialy an > email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource > for Seattle. > We were never in the free ISP business. > > I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say we > cannot discuss > these points, but we need to ensure that we can support our > current > services before we branch into others. > > Steve > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > (425) 653 7353 > http://www.scn.org/ > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. Victoria > freenet > > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is a great > deal. > > > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail or some > other > > web-based service to check their mail, after they have surfed > the net > > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it hard to go > to a > > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. > > > > Patrick > > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New Lease on > Life" is > > > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > > > > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dtechnology > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * > * * * * > > > * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > web at: > > > ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ > * * * * > > > * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > * * * * * > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' > internal > communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have > questions > about this list. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 01:51:30 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 01:51:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <009201c19066$780f0a00$d9a7e13f@dellxpsr350> Message-ID: <20011230095130.54667.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Unfortunately, the computer age has created a huge disparity between the haves and have-nots. The haves having computers and internet and the havenots having neither. A computer is fairly easy to come by now, but affordable internet access is not. Kids are often assigned homework which includes searching the internet for answers. Guess who gets screwed? And just being in on the loop of things, the internet is becoming as 'necessary' as the phone. Especially for kids. Economic disparity leads to social disparity. And less opportunities for those with disparity. I would hope that there is someone out there addressing this to the government, Congress, the IRS. Patrick --- Steve Guest wrote: > Well we could debate this for months. Let me clear up a few things > first: > 1) We are technically an ISP, but since Microsoft started putting > the connect to the internet icon on its desk top the idea of what > is an ISP has changed. We are an ISP which does not offer direct > connection to the Internet, only to a server on the Internet. We > were and still are a founding member of Washington Association of > Internet Service Providers (WAISP) which is a lobbying group. But > due to the failure of most of the local ISPs to either survive or > not get eaten by the national big fish, WAISP could soon die from a > lack of membership. So it depends on your definition of an ISP. > 2) As far as the costs for an ISP - these are well know and we > have investigated them. If we were to take NWNexos for example, it > had a budget of several millions when WindStar bought it and still > it failed to be profitable. There are way too many factors to make > this a simple calculation. We would also change our profile and > start to impact others like wolfnet, drizzle and eskimo. There are > several ISPs open to offers in the area, go look at their books if > you think this is a viable proposition. From my costings, I worked > out that we would need about $5-10 Million a year for SCN's > operations and service to be "professional", plus a major culture > shift. Which is way too many $10 customers. > 3) I am confused by the 501(c)3 comment. Lobbying is not a high > priority for SCNA at present. The thing that Eugene did, as far as > I can see, is that it needed money and decided to do a fee for > service. They didn't read the small print though. Any fee for > service is fine if the service is educational, but as a connection > to the Internet, it is deemed by the IRS to not be educational. > They currently agree that the service is educational, but the > connection to the internet is offered by 100s of other vendors > which are commercial. Therefore this breaks the 501(c)3 agreement > with the IRS. Plus it brings us back to the first point - we are a > connection to a "service" which is educational and on the Internet. > > Personally, if I thought a for-profit with low cost for service > would make a profit, I would be doing that rather than working for > SCN as a volunteer CEO. Plus I think I know where I could have > gotten a few "staff" that might wish to work for me rather than > volunteering. So if running a cheap access ISP were profitable, > then where are they? They came and most went with the dot.coms. > > Steve > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > (425) 653 7353 http://www.scn.org/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: emailer1 > To: Marilyn Sheck ; scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 1:42 AM > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > > > The key part of Steve Guest's message is the following: > ____________________ > "I do not see SCN being able to commit > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is > initialy an > email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for > Seattle. > We were never in the free ISP business." > _____________________ > > The above contains a Catch 22 element. (1) We do not have the > funds and staff to support a full ISP (including standard graphical > functions); and (2) we will continue to offer a very limited type > of service and so we will NEVER attract or bring in the funds to > support such a full ISP service. > > Rather than mere speculation, it will be necessary to get a > proper accounting (indepent) to determine > 1. How much funding it would take to operate an independent, > proper ISP. (Staff and hardware) > 2. How many paying subscribers it would take (at $10/month) to > support such an ISP service. (This price would under cut almost > all other services.) > 3. How many low-income subscriptions could be offered for little > or no cost under this full ISP scenario. > > If the answers to 1 and 2 are positive (i.e., it would be doable > to get enough subscribers to fully fund all aspects of a complete > ISP service), THEN it would be appropriate to discuss abandoning > the tax-free status and switch to a for-profit service. > > By the way, the tax-free status comes at a cost: SCNA cannot > lobby. SCNA, like Eugene was, is severely limited by the IRS as to > what low-income services it can offer and as to what philosophical > stance it can follow actively. > > The library connection also has similar costs. If SCNA actually > did become active (read "controversial"), the library could no > longer provide free connection. As Steve pointed out, "(SCN)A is > initialy an email and maillist site." The design of the > organization is limited by that earlier small mission. Keeping the > library "sponsorship" and the subsequent tax-free status prevent > SCNA from being a desireable ISP and from being an effective > community influence. > > Until an independent accounting can answer 1, 2, & 3, there is no > way to describe SCNA's potential or future. It can only continue > to drift. > > P.S. > > About the statement: "We were never in the free ISP business." > > Actually, that is exactly what we used to tell everyone -- that > we WERE a free ISP. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Marilyn Sheck > To: scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 1:53 PM > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > > > Well said, Steve. And, YES, you are right about the library > not being able > to sustain your internet feed if your traffic increased. We > are already having > trouble with our bandwidth just with SCN in its present form > combined with > our own services. We would not be able to use public funds, > which is what > we pay for the Internet connection with, to support SCN's > connection if it > is more than a small fraction of our overall bandwidth usage. > > >>> steveg at scn.org 12/21/01 01:08PM >>> > Hi > Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the other > hand, this is > basic command style access and not FREE Internet access. I > agree it would > be great to offer such services, but we have address some > important issues > first. > > Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet access. > > 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to the > Internet via > our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to the > Internet, then > the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably. This would > be > followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed, because > currently I > have been led to believe that the Library would not be able to > justify the > cost of the service. This would mean that we would have to > provide our > own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need then to be > in the > Library because we are then simply taking up their limited > space. So if > this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the phone > lines, the > Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. We do > not have the > budget for this and we would be out of funds within months or > weeks. > > 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as indicated > that > Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of worms. > First lets > point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a whole > different set of > rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are already > looking at > FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on the > educational value > of the service. As soon as we set up a competing service with > a > commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service - in an > area which > is not directly education then we fall outside the charitable > status. > Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened or is > happening to > Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company to sell > their fee > for service IP connections and break away from the educational > section. > Again something that would put us at odds with the Library and > its > donation to us. > > The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten to SCN, > but we are > in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal. > > Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this, understand the > Library's > view, have the funds and staff to support this and the software > to ensure > that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN being able > to commit > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is > initialy an > email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource > for Seattle. > We were never in the free ISP business. > > I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say we > cannot discuss > these points, but we need to ensure that we can support our > current > services before we branch into others. > > Steve > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > (425) 653 7353 > http://www.scn.org/ > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. Victoria > freenet > > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is a great > deal. > > > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail or some > other > > web-based service to check their mail, after they have surfed > the net > > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it hard to go > to a > > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. > > > > Patrick > > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New Lease on > Life" is > > > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > > > > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dtechnology > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * > * * * * > > > * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > web at: > > > ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ > * * * * > > > * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > * * * * * > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' > internal > communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have > questions > about this list. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Sun Dec 30 16:27:40 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:27:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <20011230093704.17254.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > [....] > Again, it would be "nice" if SCN could find a way to provide low-cost > ISP service. > > That is my only point. Patrick, you need to get your thinking straight here. We DO provide "low-cost ISP service". I.e., we provide e-mail and web access (which certainly are Internet services) for free (which is certainly "low-cost"). We do not provide "full" Internet services, but then neither do other ISPs. And as we are free of advertising we are even "more free" than some other "free" service providers. Of course it would be nice to have more services. But dealing with why we don't have more services is not helped when you can't even articulate what you want. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 17:27:53 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:27:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011231012753.30190.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> JJ, I wasn't advocating that SCN provide standard PPP service. I said it would be "nice" if SCN had a low-cost service. I realize there are a million other things ahead of that, so I wouldn't even speculate about SCN providing PPP dial-up service. That is what I meant: Affordable, "regular" dial-up service like Eskimo or Wolfnet. A not-for-profit service. Like a co-op. To speculate, it would probably be much more affordable for a not-for-profit ISP to not have an expensive Usenet feed. That would cut down on paying for that service and tons of hard disk space and zero maintenance since there would be no Usenet. If people wanted Usenet, they could either pay extra for it from another service or go to Google, which now has a 20-year archive of the Usenet available. And if there were limits on disk space and email space, that would keep costs down. People would have what most people use: a graphical web browser like IE and POP mail. Those are essential services for many people. But that is all speculation on what I would think would keep some costs down. But please don't assume that I wished that SCN would have that. I never said that. Before SCN even consider that, it needs to have someone who can effectively communicate among the volunteers and orchestrate those volunteers so that energy is well spent. As it now stands, the 'brain' is not informing one leg of what the other leg is doing. Things could flow a lot better at SCN and SCN could retain volunteers better if it had an effective human being organizing that effort. That really requires no technology, only someone who pays attention, keeps people informed and makes the best use of SCN's talented volunteers. Its' sad: A lot more could get done at SCN with that orchestration. Patrick --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > [....] > > Again, it would be "nice" if SCN could find a way to provide > low-cost > > ISP service. > > > > That is my only point. > > Patrick, you need to get your thinking straight here. We DO > provide > "low-cost ISP service". I.e., we provide e-mail and web access > (which > certainly are Internet services) for free (which is certainly > "low-cost"). > > We do not provide "full" Internet services, but then neither do > other > ISPs. And as we are free of advertising we are even "more free" > than some > other "free" service providers. > > Of course it would be nice to have more services. But dealing with > why we > don't have more services is not helped when you can't even > articulate what > you want. > > === JJ > ============================================================= > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Sun Dec 30 22:21:23 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:21:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <20011231012753.30190.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > JJ, > > I wasn't advocating that SCN provide standard PPP service. I said it > would be "nice" if SCN had a low-cost service. I realize there are a > million other things ahead of that, so I wouldn't even speculate > about SCN providing PPP dial-up service. That is what I meant: > Affordable, "regular" dial-up service like Eskimo or Wolfnet. A > not-for-profit service. Like a co-op. [...] > > And if there were limits on disk space and email space, that would > keep costs down. People would have what most people use: a graphical > web browser like IE and POP mail. Those are essential services for > many people. Patrick - you seem to have a contradiction here when you say "a graphical browser like IE". If you want people to be able to dial in to SCN as their ISP and then useing a graphical browser like IE over the SCN connection, that implies having PPP service. On the other hand, if people go to another ISP which provides PPP, or have DSL, etc., then they can use their graphical browsers with all the current SCN web setup. Once upon a time, I actually set up a server program on SCN to support a _NON_ PPP graphical browser called Icomm. It allowed you to do a regular dialup to SCN from the built-in communications program in the browser, login to your account, use a "go icomm" Freeport shortcut to fire up the server program on SCN, and then start browsing. It used the standard unix zmodem command to download the web pages. It was surprisingly efficient at doing that. So - what happened? Icomm got shouldered aside by Netscape, IE, AOL, etc. And the developers essentially abandoned the program while still happily cashing your check for registering the shareware [which otherwise stopped working after a trial period], and eventually sending a registration code. So, Icomm is stuck at a HTML 2 level, with no support for most modern bells and whistles. As far as I know, it all still functions - you can find a copy of it in the SCN software archives ["go soft" shortcut], download and install on anything at least through Win 98, and it should work. As far as I know, the setup on the SCN side is also OK. However, in view of the obsolescence of Icomm and the abominable attitude of the developers, I have refused now for several years to encourage any SCN users to use and register Icomm. It's really too bad that this idea died, for a graphical browser that worked through a standard dialup connection. In principle, there is no reason why you couldn't have one that supported most of the modern web page features. But alas, the marketplace drives program development. Ken Applegate > > Patrick > > --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > [....] > > > Again, it would be "nice" if SCN could find a way to provide > > low-cost > > > ISP service. > > > > > > That is my only point. > > > > Patrick, you need to get your thinking straight here. We DO > > provide > > "low-cost ISP service". I.e., we provide e-mail and web access > > (which > > certainly are Internet services) for free (which is certainly > > "low-cost"). > > > > We do not provide "full" Internet services, but then neither do > > other > > ISPs. And as we are free of advertising we are even "more free" > > than some > > other "free" service providers. > > > > Of course it would be nice to have more services. But dealing with > > why we > > don't have more services is not helped when you can't even > > articulate what > > you want. > > > > === JJ > > ============================================================= > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Sun Dec 30 23:50:30 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:50:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <20011231012753.30190.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > I wasn't advocating that SCN provide standard PPP service. I said it > would be "nice" if SCN had a low-cost service. Get your head out of your butt: SCN is **free**. ZERO cost!! The only way to make things cost less would be to _pay_ people for using SCN. > ... That is what I meant: > Affordable, "regular" dial-up service like Eskimo or Wolfnet. "Regular" dial-up service? That is what we have! But then, what you probably meant is PPP service, because that is what IE requires. (And your idea of making such service more affordable by limiting disk space usage is absurd. The cost is not in the disk drives, but in hiring people to handle everything.) But you are doing better when you fault SCN's "orchestration". However, it is not for any lack in the conductor: it's because the _players_ can't agree on what music to play, or even when or where. This is why every orchestra in the world has a kind of dictator called a conductor--to get everyone in time and reading from the same page. Whereas in SCN we can't even settle on what music to play. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Mon Dec 31 10:45:15 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:45:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, J. Johnson wrote: > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > I wasn't advocating that SCN provide standard PPP service. I said it > > would be "nice" if SCN had a low-cost service. > > Get your head out of your butt: SCN is **free**. ZERO cost!! The only > way to make things cost less would be to _pay_ people for using SCN. JJ - the content of your commentys is valid. But - perhaps a little less fanning of the flame wars here? Remember? We are all supposedly friends here and trying to work for SCN improvement??! > > > ... That is what I meant: > > Affordable, "regular" dial-up service like Eskimo or Wolfnet. > > "Regular" dial-up service? That is what we have! But then, what you > probably meant is PPP service, because that is what IE requires. > > (And your idea of making such service more affordable by limiting disk > space usage is absurd. The cost is not in the disk drives, but in hiring > people to handle everything.) > > But you are doing better when you fault SCN's "orchestration". However, > it is not for any lack in the conductor: it's because the _players_ can't > agree on what music to play, or even when or where. This is why every > orchestra in the world has a kind of dictator called a conductor--to get > everyone in time and reading from the same page. Whereas in SCN we can't > even settle on what music to play. Something from Gotterdammerung, perhaps? Ken Applegate > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 10:54:31 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:54:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011231185431.87689.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, no need for flames. It can be safely assumed that regular ISP service involves a PPP connection, since that is what most people use. DSL is out of the question due to cost. Usenet service is expensive. And there is the question of things going wrong when you have more services: Murphy's Law. Human capital is high, but something could be worked out if a company started an ISP as a not-for-profit. You would have to run models and leave out the expensive dotcom chairs for all employees. All kinds of things go wrong with Usenet feeds and that eats up a lot of human resources. There are many dotcoms, so to speak, that were there first and are still around. They run their businesses out of their houses or garages and keep expenses to a minimum. Eskimo does it and has done it for a long time. All I was advocating was possibilities and not for SCN. It has other issues as I went into discussion about: Like having a competent manager to oversee all projects and kept the flow going at full optimization. Patrick --- Kenneth Applegate wrote: > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, J. Johnson wrote: > > > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > I wasn't advocating that SCN provide standard PPP service. I > said it > > > would be "nice" if SCN had a low-cost service. > > > > Get your head out of your butt: SCN is **free**. ZERO cost!! > The only > > way to make things cost less would be to _pay_ people for using > SCN. > > JJ - the content of your commentys is valid. But - perhaps a little > less > fanning of the flame wars here? Remember? We are all supposedly > friends > here and trying to work for SCN improvement??! > > > > > > ... That is what I meant: > > > Affordable, "regular" dial-up service like Eskimo or Wolfnet. > > > > "Regular" dial-up service? That is what we have! But then, what > you > > probably meant is PPP service, because that is what IE requires. > > > > > (And your idea of making such service more affordable by limiting > disk > > space usage is absurd. The cost is not in the disk drives, but > in hiring > > people to handle everything.) > > > > But you are doing better when you fault SCN's "orchestration". > However, > > it is not for any lack in the conductor: it's because the > _players_ can't > > agree on what music to play, or even when or where. This is why > every > > orchestra in the world has a kind of dictator called a > conductor--to get > > everyone in time and reading from the same page. Whereas in SCN > we can't > > even settle on what music to play. > > Something from Gotterdammerung, perhaps? > > Ken Applegate > > > > > === JJ > ============================================================= > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from > Seattle? > By the windshield wipers on their > telescopes! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at groupworks.org Mon Dec 31 14:43:09 2001 From: steve at groupworks.org (Steve Guest) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:43:09 -0800 Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times References: <20011231185431.87689.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002001c1924c$87343540$e2a7e13f@dellxpsr350> Hi Patrick See below with a few snips for email reading assistance ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "patrick" Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 10:54 AM Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > Yes, no need for flames. Thanks for understanding > Human capital is high, but something could be worked out if a company > started an ISP as a not-for-profit. You would have to run models and > leave out the expensive dotcom chairs for all employees. Here is where I think I have been missing the point in my explainations. The IRS have stated very clearly that no not-for-profit can be an ISP. They have said that an ISP is and only can be a for-profit business. They have even written some nice justifications for their stance on this issue. This is why SCN, and other CNS/FreeNets, are walking a very carefull line here. It would not take too much for the IRS to move even tighter on their stance to include us. This is a very good reason why our education program is of primary importance. > All kinds of things go wrong with Usenet feeds and that eats up a lot > of human resources. And disk space - but that is cheap in comparision ;-) > There are many dotcoms, so to speak, that were there first and are > still around. They run their businesses out of their houses or > garages and keep expenses to a minimum. Eskimo does it and has done > it for a long time. Yep and the laws have now been changed to try and stop this from happening. Plus the telcos are unhappy about running T1s into some residential neighborhoods. Given I can't even get DSL or cable service here in south Bellevue! > All I was advocating was possibilities and not for SCN. It has other > issues as I went into discussion about: Like having a competent > manager to oversee all projects and kept the flow going at full > optimization. Umm - now that implies something. Are you suggesting I am incompetent? It is fun trying to optimize volunteers task loads and keeping things legal and on track. Managing a volunteer taskforce is worse than the famous EDS "Super Bowl" description of managing and herding cats. The best description I have ever heard was that it was like trying to control and manage bees. You think the volunteer force are doing one thing and then you find they have gone off and done something else or they have done nothing because it was a sunny day or they had a good idea but they never realized that .... would happen it they did .... or they have simply gone off and never come back. Managing a volunteer force is unlike any management task you can be trained for. BTW, a competent manager would not oversee all projects, they delegate - and then in SCN's case they prey. I can oversee so much, but then I too run out of volunteer time. So, if you know any "competent" managers who want to work in this type of environment, please let me know. I am missing about 6 or 7 currently. Most take one look and realize they have never been prepared for this type of structure because all their training does not work. Thx Steve * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Mon Dec 31 17:38:06 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:38:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <20011231185431.87689.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry, Patrick. It was a mark of my exasperation at your repeated implication that we do not already offer low-cost ISP service, your misunderstanding of what you really mean, and my inability to communicate that to you. It is quite frustrating enough trying to get any thing done on this system as it is, but not being able to communicate something as basic as this is quite demoralizing. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 19:12:17 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:12:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020101031217.87709.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Hey JJ, I know you are a good guy, so I don't take anything personal. In college, we used to battle with particular professor/scholar of Korean history, but none of those battles between all of us was personal; we just wanted the truth to emerge. Getting into battles honed our skills at having airtight facts down. Anyway, you keep me on my toes to being as articulate and as complete as can be when I make a statement and I appreciate that. I have to make sure that every comment and statement I make is as airtight as possible. Happy New Year, Patrick --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > Sorry, Patrick. It was a mark of my exasperation at your repeated > implication that we do not already offer low-cost ISP service, your > misunderstanding of what you really mean, and my inability to > communicate > that to you. It is quite frustrating enough trying to get any > thing done > on this system as it is, but not being able to communicate > something as > basic as this is quite demoralizing. > > === JJ > ============================================================= > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 19:36:05 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:36:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <002001c1924c$87343540$e2a7e13f@dellxpsr350> Message-ID: <20020101033605.18390.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Steve, Comments below. --- Steve Guest wrote: > Hi Patrick > See below with a few snips for email reading assistance ;-) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "patrick" > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 10:54 AM > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > > > > Yes, no need for flames. > Thanks for understanding > > > Human capital is high, but something could be worked out if a > company > > started an ISP as a not-for-profit. You would have to run models > and > > leave out the expensive dotcom chairs for all employees. > Here is where I think I have been missing the point in my > explainations. > The IRS have stated very clearly that no not-for-profit can be an > ISP. They > have said that an ISP is and only can be a for-profit business. > They have > even written some nice justifications for their stance on this > issue. This > is why SCN, and other CNS/FreeNets, are walking a very carefull > line here. > It would not take too much for the IRS to move even tighter on > their stance > to include us. This is a very good reason why our education > program is of > primary importance. I will point out that I know nothing about the difference between non-profit and not-for-profit from the IRS standpoint. I only make the assumption that non-profit is often eligible for tax breaks and that not-for-profit is a co-op that is inbetween for-profit and non-profit. If the IRS is making stink about being so strict about low-cost not-for-profit internet service, then I hope some organization is taking a step up to the plate and lobbying for changes to this. ISPs should be allowed to run like public television stations. > > > All kinds of things go wrong with Usenet feeds and that eats up a > lot > > of human resources. > And disk space - but that is cheap in comparision ;-) > > > There are many dotcoms, so to speak, that were there first and > are > > still around. They run their businesses out of their houses or > > garages and keep expenses to a minimum. Eskimo does it and has > done > > it for a long time. > Yep and the laws have now been changed to try and stop this from > happening. > Plus the telcos are unhappy about running T1s into some residential > neighborhoods. Given I can't even get DSL or cable service here in > south > Bellevue! That is unfortunate. But it is another example of large corporations fighting against what is right in the long run. MS is an acute example, however it is the telcos who are the primary organizations for example. Many are the offshoots of the railroads who also used their monopolistic powers to control legislation. > > > All I was advocating was possibilities and not for SCN. It has > other > > issues as I went into discussion about: Like having a competent > > manager to oversee all projects and kept the flow going at full > > optimization. > Umm - now that implies something. Are you suggesting I am > incompetent? It > is fun trying to optimize volunteers task loads and keeping things > legal and > on track. Managing a volunteer taskforce is worse than the famous > EDS > "Super Bowl" description of managing and herding cats. The best > description > I have ever heard was that it was like trying to control and manage > bees. > You think the volunteer force are doing one thing and then you find > they > have gone off and done something else or they have done nothing > because it > was a sunny day or they had a good idea but they never realized > that .... > would happen it they did .... or they have simply gone off and > never come > back. Managing a volunteer force is unlike any management task > you can be > trained for. BTW, a competent manager would not oversee all > projects, they > delegate - and then in SCN's case they prey. I can oversee so > much, but > then I too run out of volunteer time. As the adage goes: A little goes a long way: From my standpoint, SCN could function and flow a lot better if there was better orchestration from the conductor. Right now, things are too fractured. I used to beat my head against the wall to get responses, but my head started to hurt and I gave it up. I was only saying that SCN needs a project manager, or something of that ilk (project managers are not well loved where I work, but that is the nature of the structure of our organization). > > So, if you know any "competent" managers who want to work in this > type of > environment, please let me know. I am missing about 6 or 7 > currently. Most > take one look and realize they have never been prepared for this > type of > structure because all their training does not work. I'm interested in the position, if such a position were to open up. Not with the intent to usurp power (and I only mention this because people might assume so.), but I wouldn't mind being the project manager for SCN or the communications 'dude'. With that, I didn't imply that you were incompent: Only that I see a need for someone who can manage the projects and report to you. I think you have your hands full and could use someone who can distill all that is going on and disseminate information and keep everyone informed. Which brings to mind a question: Would such a position fit into the current structure? I see that someone could fulfill that and be of assistance. Patrick > > Thx > Steve > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From alboss at scn.org Mon Dec 31 23:50:15 2001 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:50:15 -0800 Subject: SCN: On delegation, prayer, and prey References: <20011231185431.87689.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> <002001c1924c$87343540$e2a7e13f@dellxpsr350> Message-ID: <3C316A37.2090109@scn.org> Steve Guest wrote: > ... a competent manager would not oversee all projects, they > delegate - and then in SCN's case they prey. Actually, Steve, I think you meant that in our case, they _pray_ (not "prey"). A manager who delegates, then preys, would be more likely to work in a corporate setting wherein they appear to base prestige on how many subordinates one manages to chew up and spit out. (Most of us can name at least one of those...) At least at SCN we don't resort to eating our volunteers. (We just tie them to email lists and hit them over the head with the same arguments year after year after year.) Then again, I don't really know that someone's not out there consuming our volunteers. That could explain some of the disappearances. I always wondered what happened to Bob K. There's a fundraising opportunity somewhere here. The SCN cookbook? You eat how you act, right? I bet I already know folks who could contribute a lot of flambee recipes, others whose numerous dishes would all start with the instructions "Muddle everything together until it loses cohesion," and still others whose meal suggestions would consist almost entirely of barrels of vinegar. Heck, we could have a couple chapters on nuts! Must stop before I get even sillier. Happy new year, everyone! Al * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Mon Dec 31 11:33:09 2001 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:33:09 -0800 Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times References: <20011230095130.54667.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002a01c19806$eb1da9a0$7152fea9@desktop> Steve, This was a very useful response. You were specific enough to move the discussion forward. Could you publish your worksheet that you used to cost out the $5-10 million figure. (How much for staff, for hardware, for connectivity, etc.) A simple e-mail would suffice. Thanks in advance. This will add a lot of clarity to the discussion. ----- Original Message ----- From: patrick To: Steve Guest ; ; Marilyn Sheck ; Cc: ; Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 1:51 AM Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > Unfortunately, the computer age has created a huge disparity between > the haves and have-nots. The haves having computers and internet and > the havenots having neither. > > A computer is fairly easy to come by now, but affordable internet > access is not. > > Kids are often assigned homework which includes searching the > internet for answers. Guess who gets screwed? > > And just being in on the loop of things, the internet is becoming as > 'necessary' as the phone. Especially for kids. Economic disparity > leads to social disparity. And less opportunities for those with > disparity. > > I would hope that there is someone out there addressing this to the > government, Congress, the IRS. > > Patrick > > --- Steve Guest wrote: > > Well we could debate this for months. Let me clear up a few things > > first: > > 1) We are technically an ISP, but since Microsoft started putting > > the connect to the internet icon on its desk top the idea of what > > is an ISP has changed. We are an ISP which does not offer direct > > connection to the Internet, only to a server on the Internet. We > > were and still are a founding member of Washington Association of > > Internet Service Providers (WAISP) which is a lobbying group. But > > due to the failure of most of the local ISPs to either survive or > > not get eaten by the national big fish, WAISP could soon die from a > > lack of membership. So it depends on your definition of an ISP. > > 2) As far as the costs for an ISP - these are well know and we > > have investigated them. If we were to take NWNexos for example, it > > had a budget of several millions when WindStar bought it and still > > it failed to be profitable. There are way too many factors to make > > this a simple calculation. We would also change our profile and > > start to impact others like wolfnet, drizzle and eskimo. There are > > several ISPs open to offers in the area, go look at their books if > > you think this is a viable proposition. From my costings, I worked > > out that we would need about $5-10 Million a year for SCN's > > operations and service to be "professional", plus a major culture > > shift. Which is way too many $10 customers. > > 3) I am confused by the 501(c)3 comment. Lobbying is not a high > > priority for SCNA at present. The thing that Eugene did, as far as > > I can see, is that it needed money and decided to do a fee for > > service. They didn't read the small print though. Any fee for > > service is fine if the service is educational, but as a connection > > to the Internet, it is deemed by the IRS to not be educational. > > They currently agree that the service is educational, but the > > connection to the internet is offered by 100s of other vendors > > which are commercial. Therefore this breaks the 501(c)3 agreement > > with the IRS. Plus it brings us back to the first point - we are a > > connection to a "service" which is educational and on the Internet. > > > > Personally, if I thought a for-profit with low cost for service > > would make a profit, I would be doing that rather than working for > > SCN as a volunteer CEO. Plus I think I know where I could have > > gotten a few "staff" that might wish to work for me rather than > > volunteering. So if running a cheap access ISP were profitable, > > then where are they? They came and most went with the dot.coms. > > > > Steve > > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org > > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > > (425) 653 7353 http://www.scn.org/ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: emailer1 > > To: Marilyn Sheck ; scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 1:42 AM > > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > > > > > > The key part of Steve Guest's message is the following: > > ____________________ > > "I do not see SCN being able to commit > > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is > > initialy an > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for > > Seattle. > > We were never in the free ISP business." > > _____________________ > > > > The above contains a Catch 22 element. (1) We do not have the > > funds and staff to support a full ISP (including standard graphical > > functions); and (2) we will continue to offer a very limited type > > of service and so we will NEVER attract or bring in the funds to > > support such a full ISP service. > > > > Rather than mere speculation, it will be necessary to get a > > proper accounting (indepent) to determine > > 1. How much funding it would take to operate an independent, > > proper ISP. (Staff and hardware) > > 2. How many paying subscribers it would take (at $10/month) to > > support such an ISP service. (This price would under cut almost > > all other services.) > > 3. How many low-income subscriptions could be offered for little > > or no cost under this full ISP scenario. > > > > If the answers to 1 and 2 are positive (i.e., it would be doable > > to get enough subscribers to fully fund all aspects of a complete > > ISP service), THEN it would be appropriate to discuss abandoning > > the tax-free status and switch to a for-profit service. > > > > By the way, the tax-free status comes at a cost: SCNA cannot > > lobby. SCNA, like Eugene was, is severely limited by the IRS as to > > what low-income services it can offer and as to what philosophical > > stance it can follow actively. > > > > The library connection also has similar costs. If SCNA actually > > did become active (read "controversial"), the library could no > > longer provide free connection. As Steve pointed out, "(SCN)A is > > initialy an email and maillist site." The design of the > > organization is limited by that earlier small mission. Keeping the > > library "sponsorship" and the subsequent tax-free status prevent > > SCNA from being a desireable ISP and from being an effective > > community influence. > > > > Until an independent accounting can answer 1, 2, & 3, there is no > > way to describe SCNA's potential or future. It can only continue > > to drift. > > > > P.S. > > > > About the statement: "We were never in the free ISP business." > > > > Actually, that is exactly what we used to tell everyone -- that > > we WERE a free ISP. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Marilyn Sheck > > To: scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 1:53 PM > > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > > > > > > Well said, Steve. And, YES, you are right about the library > > not being able > > to sustain your internet feed if your traffic increased. We > > are already having > > trouble with our bandwidth just with SCN in its present form > > combined with > > our own services. We would not be able to use public funds, > > which is what > > we pay for the Internet connection with, to support SCN's > > connection if it > > is more than a small fraction of our overall bandwidth usage. > > > > >>> steveg at scn.org 12/21/01 01:08PM >>> > > Hi > > Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the other > > hand, this is > > basic command style access and not FREE Internet access. I > > agree it would > > be great to offer such services, but we have address some > > important issues > > first. > > > > Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet access. > > > > 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to the > > Internet via > > our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to the > > Internet, then > > the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably. This would > > be > > followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed, because > > currently I > > have been led to believe that the Library would not be able to > > justify the > > cost of the service. This would mean that we would have to > > provide our > > own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need then to be > > in the > > Library because we are then simply taking up their limited > > space. So if > > this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the phone > > lines, the > > Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. We do > > not have the > > budget for this and we would be out of funds within months or > > weeks. > > > > 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as indicated > > that > > Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of worms. > > First lets > > point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a whole > > different set of > > rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are already > > looking at > > FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on the > > educational value > > of the service. As soon as we set up a competing service with > > a > > commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service - in an > > area which > > is not directly education then we fall outside the charitable > > status. > > Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened or is > > happening to > > Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company to sell > > their fee > > for service IP connections and break away from the educational > > section. > > Again something that would put us at odds with the Library and > > its > > donation to us. > > > > The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten to SCN, > > but we are > > in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal. > > > > Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this, understand the > > Library's > > view, have the funds and staff to support this and the software > > to ensure > > that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN being able > > to commit > > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is > > initialy an > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource > > for Seattle. > > We were never in the free ISP business. > > > > I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say we > > cannot discuss > > these points, but we need to ensure that we can support our > > current > > services before we branch into others. > > > > Steve > > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org > > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > > (425) 653 7353 > > http://www.scn.org/ > > > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. Victoria > > freenet > > > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is a great > > deal. > > > > > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail or some > > other > > > web-based service to check their mail, after they have surfed > > the net > > > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it hard to go > > to a > > > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New Lease on > > Life" is > > > > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadline s%2Dtechnology > > > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * > > * * * * > > > > * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > > web at: > > > > ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ > > * * * * > > > > * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > > * * * * * > > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' > > internal > > communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have > > questions > > about this list. > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * *