SCN: hmmm (fwd)

[J. Johnson]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:40:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: "J. Johnson" <jj at scn.org>
Subject: Re: SCN: hmmm

[My apologies for that earliar and inadvertent response.]

Doug, I'm don't understand how you define "SCN's cause" that you should
find me wanting in sympathy; perhaps you could elaborate on that.  I
certainly hope that I am not "suspect" simply because I am not in full,
enthusiatic, automatic, and unquestioning agreement with your view. 

And I do have problems with your statement "The Internet was built with
*public* taxpayer money and then handed over to commercial interests." 
First, it is misleading.  The _original_ NFSnet backbone was federally
funded, but the digital infrastructure that now exists is nearly
exclusively privately funded.  Second, the relevancy of this point is not
clear.  

Keep in mind that the thesis (not mine!) from which this discussion
started was (essentially) that without advertising we might not have
_some_ services available on the Internet.  My contribution is to ask who
would pay the bills if the advertisers don't.  (And to suggest that it
might be more fruitful to consider the specific case of search engines.) 

Are you suggesting "the government" as an alternate funder?  How would
this be done in the specific case of search engines?

=== JJ =============================================================

On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Doug Schuler wrote:

> 
> I'm not sure how to respond to this.  I do wish that JJ was a little
> more sympathetic to SCN's cause.  The Internet was built with *public*
> taxpayer money and then handed over to commercial interests. It's
> my feeling that there is a strong need for public space & public
> access to the information and communcation capabilities of the
> Internet.
> 
> I do agree that we're "selling" ideas -- let's make ours as
> compelling as possible!  We've certainly outlived hundreds of
> dot-coms already!!!
> 
> -- Doug
> 
>    ******************************************************************
>    *  New Community Networks: Wired for Change     Now online       *
>    *               http://www.scn.org/ncn                           *
>    *     Give us YOUR insights!     Help write the new edition!     *
>    ******************************************************************
> 
> On Fri, 25 May 2001, J. Johnson wrote:
> 
> > I agree that all this is largely irrelevant to SCN--our bills are small
> > enough that we can live off of the altruistic fat of the land.  Which is
> > why I maintain that the argument that was presented is clearer if more
> > specifically focused, such as on web search services.
> > 
> > I don't believe that the use of "private, proprietary classification
> > systems" is relevant here.  The essence of the issue is not whether us
> > freeloaders can access the data that someone has compiled that effectively
> > indexes the Web--it's whether there is any data to start with.  Building
> > those databases requires a heavy investment in computers, Internet access,
> > and system administration.  If advertisers won't pay those bills, who
> > will?
> > 
> > It should be noted that, truly, "There Ain't No Free Lunch".  SCN has
> > "free" Internet access, etc., because we have "sold" various people into
> > providing it.  Essentially, we sell an idea.  Others sell advertising.  It
> > appears there is more money to be had selling advertising than ideas.
> > 
> > === JJ =============================================================
> > 
> > On Fri, 25 May 2001, Doug Schuler wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > It is an interesting question -- how are search engines
> > > financed.  Unfortunately (for us) search engines are
> > > in almost all cases *commercial* entities and, hence,
> > > are subject to the same forces as other commercial
> > > entities.   I don't claim to know all the details but
> > > there is evidence of dropping competitor's information
> > > from a search engine's database or of having people pay
> > > to get their information to the top in a query.  Also,
> > > since search engines use private, proprietary classification
> > > systems (unlike public libraries, for example, which use
> > > a public system [like Dewey Decimal] which ALL people can use,
> > > we have little oversight or ability to plug into it.
> > > 
> > > -=- Doug
> > > 
> > > But, all of this is more or less irrelvant to SCN.  Having
> > > advertisements support SCN sounds unworkable and almost
> > > totally contrary to our mission and principles.
> > > 
> > >    ******************************************************************
> > >    *  New Community Networks: Wired for Change     Now online       *
> > >    *               http://www.scn.org/ncn                           *
> > >    *     Give us YOUR insights!     Help write the new edition!     *
> > >    ******************************************************************
> > > 
> > > On Fri, 25 May 2001, J. Johnson wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Tue, 22 May 2001, Doug Schuler wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > I wanted to add my two cents.
> > > > > 
> > > > > We see far too many ads already and, in my opinion, it's the
> > > > > ads and the commercialization that are killing / will kill the
> > > > > Internet.  If ads are the answer then what the heck is the question!
> > > > 
> > > > The basic question is:  how are "free" services to be financed?
> > > > 
> > > > I think the argument raised in the original article would have been much
> > > > clearer if it had focused more specifically on, say, how are search
> > > > engines to be financed.  E.g., who will pay Altavista's bills?  If not the
> > > > advertisers, then who?
> > > > 
> > > > === JJ =============================================================
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 



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