From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 10:10:35 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN homepage featured site submissions requested Message-ID: <20011001171035.77942.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I'm requesting submissions for featured websites on the SCN homepage for October 2001. Please, if you can, provide a one paragraph blurb for the sites you submit. Thanks, Patrick ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Tue Oct 2 06:58:14 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:58:14 -0700 Subject: SCN: W3C Message-ID: <3BB96586.3858.8F0E5E9@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ========================= (Mike Ricciuti and Margaret Kane, News.com)---A new and controversial proposal under consideration by the World Wide Web Consortium could open the way for companies to claim patent rights--and demand royalties--on standards authorized by that body. The W3C works with developers, software makers and others to come up with standards for the Web, which can then be used by just about anyone to build Web software, free of charge. To date, either those standards have not been based on patented technology, or the holders of patents have chosen to not enforce patents in order that the standards be widely adopted. But a new proposal may open a few cracks in that wall, allowing companies to enforce patents based on those technologies and to potentially charge a royalty fee to developers who use them. The W3C's Patent Policy Framework, more commonly referred to as the "reasonable and non-discriminatory" (RAND) licensing proposal, acknowledges a central conflict to the standardization process: Companies that spend serious time and effort coming up with the technology behind the standards may be reluctant to simply give away the rights to what they consider their intellectual property. That proposal, written by W3C members representing large technology companies such as Microsoft, Apple Computer, Hewlett- Packard and Philips Electronics, has kicked off a firestorm of controversy among developers, some of whom claim it will spell the end of innovation for the Web and could lead to undue influence by commercial companies over the standards process. More specifically, some developers believe the proposal calls into question the W3C's role as the arbiter of standards related to the Web. A final decision on the policy is expected from the W3C by February 2002. Calls to Microsoft and other large technology companies were not immediately returned. A W3C representative did not immediately respond to a request for comment. "This proposal would effectively ban open-source interpretations of these standards," said Bruce Perens, who helped write the Open Source Definition in 1998. "We don't have royalties in open-source software. The W3C can potentially marginalize itself with the RAND proposal." Mike Todd, president of the Internet Society's Los Angeles chapter, said the RAND proposal would "create a situation where users would get used to using something that contains these sleeping copyrights, and then if they are activated, they will cause chaos." Todd suggests that if the W3C adopts the proposal, users of W3C standards containing copyrights should be advised of the specific copyrighted code, so "people are aware that there is a certain aspect of that standard that is copyrighted, but if you don't use it, you are in the clear." The W3C was founded in 1994 to "lead the World Wide Web to its full potential by developing common protocols that promote its evolution and ensure its interoperability," according to the organization's Web site. More than 500 organizations are members of the W3C, which has developed more than 35 technical specifications behind the Web, such as HTTP, XML and HTML. In the early days of the Web, the W3C set direction on many technologies key to the Web's adoption. But as the Web has become more mainstream, and more usable, the W3C's work has become more complex and arcane, said one analyst. "There is a sense that the W3C is becoming a little too academic and out of the mainstream and their work too esoteric," said Uttam Narsu, an analyst with Giga Information Group. The RAND proposal may be in reaction to that increased complexity, said Narsu. "The W3C needs to look at streamlining the standards process by taking something that is a de facto standard" and making it a W3C-recommended standard. "There is considerable difficulty to come up with a standard that does not infringe on a patent," Narsu said. While the W3C in the past recommended standards that are patent-free, that doesn't mean those technologies were always the best way to solve a given problem. "It may be that the adopted standard is the second or third choice, because the preferred technology was patented," Narsu said. Other standards bodies already adopt standards based on proprietary technology. And patents are not unknown to the world of standards bodies; the Joint Electronic Devices Engineering Council, or JEDEC, for instance, permits companies to submit patents for adoption by the group and to collect royalties from members. While the group prefers to adopt free patents, it will adopt for-fee patents as well. JEDEC states that members have to disclose pending patents--the organization can't adopt a standard with an undisclosed patent--but it can adopt a patent into a standard if disclosed. The patent owner can also choose to license it for free or charge everyone an equal royalty. Narsu said typically there is pressure on the patent holder from the community of users surrounding standards bodies to loosen up patent requirements, which many companies do. Specifically, the RAND proposal would require: ...That W3C working groups spell out the licensing terms for a proposal along with the technical requirements in its charter. ...All W3C Members to disclose any patent claims they know of that may be essential to a recommendation. Members whose contributions become the basis for working group efforts would have an additional obligation to disclose relevant patent claims and licensing conditions at the time of their submission. ...All W3C Members to make a legally binding commitment to license patent claims essential for implementing a W3C recommendation on RAND terms. If they're not willing to license particular technology on RAND terms, they must opt out of specific patent claims they hold, normally within 60 days after the publication of the last-call working draft. Some of the controversy involves not just the proposal itself, but the timing. The period for public comment on the proposal expired Sept. 30. Although the proposal was published to the W3C's Wet site on Aug. 16, and news about it was posted on the W3C's site on Aug. 20, most of the comments indicate that people were not aware of the proposal until this past weekend. Many are calling for an extension of the public review and comment period. A W3C representative said there "has been discussion" about extending the comment period. But once the proposal was publicized through postings on open source-friendly sites including Linux Today and Slashdot.org, the criticism was fast and furious. "A bad policy," "Just say NO!" and "RAND is WRONG," read typical subject lines of the comments that were submitted to the W3C. Notable open-source proponents, including Free Software Foundation President Richard Stallman, have urged the W3C to declare that all important standards must have free patent licenses. Stallman's comment also argued that the policy may not discriminate against a specific person, but it does "discriminate against the free software community, and that makes them unreasonable." The W3C proposal is backed by some of the largest technology makers in the industry. The working group that developed the proposal includes a who's who of technology: Microsoft, Hewlett- Packard, Philips, Apple, AT&T, IBM, ILOG, Nortel Networks, The Open Group, Reuters and Sun Microsystems, along with W3C affiliates. And some of those companies, most notably Microsoft, have shown their disapproval for certain aspects of the open-source movement. In June, Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates called the GNU General Public License that governs the distribution of some open-source software "Pac-man like," saying it "is impossible for a commercial company to use any of that work or build on any of that work." One posting to a W3C newsgroup, from a person claiming to be a Microsoft employee, defended the proposal. "Patents are a critical part of our Intellectual Property systems and a key underpinning of our capitalist economy," the posting read. The authorship of the proposal didn't go unnoticed. One commentator argued that it "has the ugly smell of a meat packer bribing the USDA." Even if the proposal is approved, it could cause infighting among those large businesses that are requesting the right to charge royalties. "The fighting will not just be over royalty-free (RF) versus RAND," Bruce Pezzlo, president of Plum Computer Consulting, told CNET News.com in an e-mail. "The arguments will be between each party who believes they have some patent that is related to any proposed standard. Each will jockey for a position, monitor what the others are charging as fees, and believe they too should be entitled to the same. "The net effect will become standards will take too long to become adopted, and not widely adopted should the cost of fees become prohibitively expensive." Copyright 2001 CNET Networks, Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Tue Oct 2 17:20:29 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: STAR Class Message-ID: Hi Everyone, There is a class scheduled for STAR on October 18, 4:30-6:30pm. Thus far, I am the only one teaching it. Is there anyone available for a little assistance? Thanx, Irene ps - my daughter & son-in-law are back in their apartment as of last Friday. But, downtown New York City remains in critical condition, no matter what the media say. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 20:08:04 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: STAR Class In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011003030804.86807.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Irene, I could make it if it was later on in the evening. The earliest I can make it is about 6:30 p.m. Can you tell us how NYC is in critical condition? --- Irene Mogol wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > There is a class scheduled for STAR on October 18, 4:30-6:30pm. > Thus far, > I am the only one teaching it. Is there anyone available for a > little > assistance? > > Thanx, > Irene > > ps - my daughter & son-in-law are back in their apartment as of > last > Friday. But, downtown New York City remains in critical condition, > no > matter what the media say. > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Wed Oct 3 15:11:05 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: STAR Class In-Reply-To: <20011003030804.86807.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Patrick, If you would call Randy Hayhurst at STAR, 325-4284 and see if he could reschedule the time it would be OK with me. I know he has some other classes scheduled so I don't know if it would be possible. But certainly it's worth a try. As far as your second question - NYC, I don't have time right now but I will explain at a later time. See ya, Irene On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > Hi Irene, > > I could make it if it was later on in the evening. The earliest I can > make it is about 6:30 p.m. > > Can you tell us how NYC is in critical condition? > --- Irene Mogol wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > There is a class scheduled for STAR on October 18, 4:30-6:30pm. > > Thus far, > > I am the only one teaching it. Is there anyone available for a > > little > > assistance? > > > > Thanx, > > Irene > > > > ps - my daughter & son-in-law are back in their apartment as of > > last > > Friday. But, downtown New York City remains in critical condition, > > no > > matter what the media say. > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > ===== > Patrick Fisher > Webmaster at scn.org > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. > http://phone.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 16:30:03 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: STAR Class In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011003233003.39379.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Irene, Will do. I'm more of a Mac sort of person, but I do use a PC at work. What is it that you will be teaching? Thanks, Patrick --- Irene Mogol wrote: > Hi Patrick, > If you would call Randy Hayhurst at STAR, 325-4284 and see if he > could > reschedule the time it would be OK with me. I know he has some > other > classes scheduled so I don't know if it would be possible. But > certainly > it's worth a try. > > As far as your second question - NYC, I don't have time right now > but I > will explain at a later time. > > See ya, > Irene > > > On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > > > Hi Irene, > > > > I could make it if it was later on in the evening. The earliest I > can > > make it is about 6:30 p.m. > > > > Can you tell us how NYC is in critical condition? > > --- Irene Mogol wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > There is a class scheduled for STAR on October 18, 4:30-6:30pm. > > > > Thus far, > > > I am the only one teaching it. Is there anyone available for a > > > little > > > assistance? > > > > > > Thanx, > > > Irene > > > > > > ps - my daughter & son-in-law are back in their apartment as of > > > last > > > Friday. But, downtown New York City remains in critical > condition, > > > no > > > matter what the media say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: > > > ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > * * > > > * * * > > > > > > ===== > > Patrick Fisher > > Webmaster at scn.org > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. > > http://phone.yahoo.com > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 21:10:11 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN homepage updated Message-ID: <20011004041011.22615.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> The Seattle Community Network's homepage has been updated. I wanted to put up more site graphics, but the ones available on the homepages of the featured sites were too big. I did email those concerned that I'd place an image up there if they could send me a smaller one. I removed the image associated with the 911 Peace Site. First, it was a little too big. Second, this is October, but I'm letting it stay up a little longer since it came up later in September. Same goes for the Seattle Peace and Justice Events Calendar (plus it's a pretty cool calendar). Links were "bolded" and blended in with the blurb paragraphs for space consideration. The Seattle Astronomical Society image even has an alt tag. Please let me know of any screw-ups I've created in the "process." Thanks much, Patrick ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Thu Oct 4 09:28:12 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:28:12 -0700 Subject: SCN: Surveillance Message-ID: <3BBC2BAC.12199.203DB52@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ====================== (J. William Gurley, Fortune Magazine)---In the weeks following the World Trade Center tragedy, many government officials were actively lobbying for increased Internet surveillance as a method of restricting terrorist activity. No surprise: Numerous reports detailed the ways Osama bin Laden and his many supporters use the Internet to help organize and share information. Senator Judd Gregg of New Hampshire called for "a global prohibition on encryption products without backdoors for government surveillance"--a request that presumably would enable the government to decode any message sent across the Net. Many large ISPs, including AOL, Earthlink, and @Home, reported that the FBI approached them after the tragedy and served them with Federal Intelligence Surveillance Act orders to search for possible communications that may have aided in the attacks. This type of activity sends shivers down the spines of many pro- privacy technology activists. Of course, these outspoken and knowledgeable people are not pro-terrorist, and surely they were as disturbed by the terrorist action as the rest of us. That said, they do not believe that you can protect freedom by restricting or destroying it. Their sentiments tend to reflect a quote from Benjamin Franklin: "They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." But putting aside any debate on civil liberties, a stronger case against the government's Internet surveillance attempts is that there may well be huge problems in both implementation and effectiveness. One predicament is just how much of the genie is already out of the bottle. So called "strong" encryption techniques--those that are nearly impossible to decipher--are broadly available on the Internet. Moreover, those tools are cataloged and archived in many forms: from ready-to-run software to source code to simple algorithms that describe the general concepts. Also, importantly, many of these algorithms have been developed outside the United States. Another disturbing development is the increased use and availability of steganography--the act of embedding or hiding a message inside a seemingly innocent digital vessel. Several programs on the Internet, many of which are shareware or free to download, make it easy to embed one file in another. Typically the transport file is large and dense, such as a JPEG photo or an MP3 file. These encoding techniques are so slick that the resulting file is indistinguishable to the human eye or ear. As a result, a covert communication may appear as innocent as two parties sharing a Britney Spears song over the Internet. USA Today has reported that Osama bin Laden and his followers are heavy users of steganography. Proposals like Senator Gregg's are unlikely to filter out much of the steganography. But what about his demands for "backdoor" access to encryption techniques? Couldn't that give the U.S. a huge new tool in tracking the progress of terrorists? Proposals like these--and other attempts to make the Net less accessible to terrorists--certainly sound good, but they raise more questions than they answer: Whom do we trust? We're having a hard enough time getting a majority of leading countries to join a coalition against terrorism. How realistic is it to think we can line everyone up in an organized assault on encryption? Many countries have much stronger feelings about personal privacy and are therefore unlikely to participate. Other less industrialized countries are going to have a hard time considering this a relevant priority. More important, how will we implement the dissemination of government keys that would unlock messages? Do we trust all governments that join the effort? Who gets to see cross-border communication? What do we ban? Many in the scientific community have pointed out the silliness in outlawing an algorithm (basically a flow chart of how the code works). First, any good programmer can convert a detailed algorithm into software code, and as such, the algorithm (or formula) is the tersest representation of the offending material. Second, these algorithms are everywhere. They're on the Internet, they're on hard drives all over the world, they're in books, and they have even been printed on T-shirts to highlight the free-speech implications of such an attempted prohibition. There is absolutely no way to rein in all the copies of these ideas or to restrict their trade among those determined to do so. With steganography, the problem is even worse. As Muhammad Ali used to say, referring to his lightning-fast moves, "Your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see." The same statement is true for messages embedded via steganography. How will the government identify potentially hazardous communications if every photo, music, and video file on the Internet is an unidentifiable transport? And even if you found the transport and decoded it, the message could still be encrypted using "strong" encryption. Who would obey? The only people I know who actually use encryption products are those who loathe or at the very least mistrust the government. Government-vetted encryption programs will see about as much use as a sauna in the desert. Is it too late? Many have suggested that the terrorists are more intelligent than we think, pointing out their clever use of these technologies. Another Senator, Jon Kyl of Arizona, has commented frequently on the "sophistication" of the terrorists for this very reason. This isn't sophistication; it's more likely ignorance on the part of the accusers. Encryption tools and the like are ridiculously easy to obtain. Go to Google, type "steganography program," and start downloading. You will be able to put an e-mail message into a family photograph within five minutes. Where do we start? There are an increasing number of ways to move files on the Internet. To name a few: e-mail, FTP, instant messenger, chat, file lockers, Napster, and Gnutella. In the next few years the annual number of e-mails and instant messages will be measured in the trillions--for each. Peer-to-peer file transfers will easily number in the billions. How do you monitor all of this? Where could you even store the log data? The pin is small, the haystack is large, and astute cryptographers can use steganography to increase the size of the haystack. The government should not give up on computer surveillance. In fact, as a tool that is used to track down a particular offender after isolation and identification, these technologies can be extremely effective. However, we should not be unrealistic about what type of "magic" spy technologies are at our disposal. We are only going to spend a lot of money, waste a lot of time, and create a false sense of security. Copyright 2001 Time Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Thu Oct 4 13:49:19 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: Free lectures on Islam In-Reply-To: <3BBCB6BF.E46D35A0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: FYI... > HENRY M. JACKSON SCHOOL OF INTERNATIONAL STUDIES > >> OPEN CLASSROOM > >> ALL SESSIONS ARE IN KANE HALL 210, 7:00-9:20 P.M. > >> FREE AND OPEN TO THE PUBLIC > >> > >> OCTOBER 4, 2001 > >> An Introduction to Islam > >> Jere L. Bacharach, Director, Jackson School of International > Studies, > >> Professor of Middle East History > >> > >> OCTOBER 11, 2001 > >> Jihad, Terror, War, and Justice: Four Words for the 21st Century > >> Ellis Goldberg, Director, Middle East Center, Jackson School of > >> International Studies; Associate Professor, Political Science > >> > >> OCTOBER 18, 2001 > >> Afghanistan > >> Nazif Shahrani, Chair, Near East Department and Professor of > Anthropology, > >> Indiana University-Bloomington > >> > >> OCTOBER 25, 2001 > >> Do They Really Hate Us? > >> Resat Kasaba, Professor of International Studies, Jackson School of > >> International Studies > >> > >> NOVEMBER 1, 2001 > >> Conceptions and Misconceptions of Women in the Middle East > >> Paula Holmes Eber, Visiting Lecturer, Jackson School of > International > >> Studies and Department of Anthropology > >> > >> NOVEMBER 8, 2001 > >> Response to Terrorism: Military Force and International Law > >> Frederick M. Lorenz, Visiting Lecturer, Jackson School of > International > >> Studies; and adjunct professor of Law, Seattle University > >> > >> NOVEMBER 15, 2001 > >> Why Some Wars Become Genocidal and Others Don't > >> Daniel Chirot, Director, International Studies Center and Professor > of > >> International Studies, Jackson School of International Studies > >> > >> Experts will present their perspectives and the audience will have > an > >> opportunity to ask questions and discuss current events. For more > >> information call: 206-543-4372. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe 911peace > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Thu Oct 4 20:44:14 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 20:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: STAR Class In-Reply-To: <20011003233003.39379.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Generally, we do Pine E-mail on the PC's. There is one MAC there, and at the last session Wade Englund was able to get Pine up onit. Also, answer any questions students might have on general computer usage or any info that they may want. The class is limited to 3 students, I don't know how many are registered for this one yet. Let me know when you speak to Randy about re-scheduling. Thanx, Irene ### On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > Irene, > > Will do. I'm more of a Mac sort of person, but I do use a PC at work. > > What is it that you will be teaching? > > Thanks, > Patrick > --- Irene Mogol wrote: > > Hi Patrick, > > If you would call Randy Hayhurst at STAR, 325-4284 and see if he > > could > > reschedule the time it would be OK with me. I know he has some > > other > > classes scheduled so I don't know if it would be possible. But > > certainly > > it's worth a try. > > > > As far as your second question - NYC, I don't have time right now > > but I > > will explain at a later time. > > > > See ya, > > Irene > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > Hi Irene, > > > > > > I could make it if it was later on in the evening. The earliest I > > can > > > make it is about 6:30 p.m. > > > > > > Can you tell us how NYC is in critical condition? > > > --- Irene Mogol wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > > > There is a class scheduled for STAR on October 18, 4:30-6:30pm. > > > > > > Thus far, > > > > I am the only one teaching it. Is there anyone available for a > > > > little > > > > assistance? > > > > > > > > Thanx, > > > > Irene > > > > > > > > ps - my daughter & son-in-law are back in their apartment as of > > > > last > > > > Friday. But, downtown New York City remains in critical > > condition, > > > > no > > > > matter what the media say. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > > * * > > > > * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > > at: > > > > ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > > * * > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > Patrick Fisher > > > Webmaster at scn.org > > > Seattle Community Network > > > http://www.scn.org > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. > > > http://phone.yahoo.com > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > > * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > > at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > > * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > ===== > Patrick Fisher > Webmaster at scn.org > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From tuanmd at scn.org Fri Oct 5 13:48:05 2001 From: tuanmd at scn.org (TuanMD) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 13:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Lesson for anti-war Message-ID: <200110052048.NAA09992@scn.org> Anti-War Demonstrators Should Think Twice Wednesday, October 03, 2001 By David Horowitz from FOX News I am a former anti-war activist who helped to organize the first campus demonstration against the war in Vietnam at the University of California, Berkeley in 1962. I appeal to all those young people who participated in "anti-war" demonstrations on 150 college campuses this week, to think again and not to join an "anti-war" effort against America's coming battle with international terrorism. The hindsight of history has shown that our efforts in the 1960s to end the war in Vietnam had two practical effects. The first was to prolong the war itself. Every testimony by North Vietnamese generals in the postwar years has affirmed that they knew they could not defeat the United States on the battlefield, and that they counted on the division of our people at home to win the war for them. The Vietcong forces we were fighting in South Vietnam were destroyed in 1968. In other words, most of the war and most of the casualties in the war occurred because the dictatorship of North Vietnam counted on the fact Americans would give up the battle rather than pay the price necessary to win it. This is what happened. The blood of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, and tens of thousands of Americans, is on the hands of the anti-war activists who prolonged the struggle and gave victory to the Communists. The second effect of the war was to surrender South Vietnam to the forces of Communism. This resulted in the imposition of a monstrous police state, the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent South Vietnamese, the incarceration in "re-education camps" of hundreds of thousands more, and a quarter of a century of abject poverty imposed by crackpot Marxist economic plans, which continue to this day. This, too, is the responsibility of the so-called anti-war movement of the 1960s. I say "so-called anti-war movement," because while many Americans were sincerely troubled by America's war effort, the organizers of this movement were Marxists and radicals who supported a Communist victory and an American defeat. Today the same people and their youthful followers are organizing the campus demonstrations against America's effort to defend its citizens against the forces of international terrorism and anti-American hatred, responsible for the September attacks. I know, better than most, the importance of protecting freedom of speech and the right of citizens to dissent. But I also know better than most, that there is a difference between honest dissent and malevolent hate, between criticism of national policy, and sabotage of the nation's defenses. In the 1960s and 1970s, the tolerance of anti-American hatreds was so high, that the line between dissent and treason was eventually erased. Along with thousands of other New Leftists, I was one who crossed the line between dissent and actual treason. (I have written an account of these matters in my autobiography, Radical Son). I did so for what I thought were the noblest of reasons: to advance the cause of "social justice" and "peace." I have lived to see how wrong I was and how much damage we did - especially to those whose cause we claimed to embrace, the peasants of Indo-China who suffered grievously from our support for the Communist enemy. I came to see how precious are the freedoms and opportunities afforded by America to the poorest and most humble of its citizens, and how rare its virtues are in the world at large. If I have one regret from my radical years, it is that this country was too tolerant towards the treason of its enemies within. If patriotic Americans had been more vigilant in the defense of their country, if they had called things by their right names, if they had confronted us with the seriousness of our attacks, they might have caught the attention of those of us who were well-meaning but utterly misguided. And they might have stopped us in our tracks. This appeal is for those of you who are out there today attacking your country, full of your own self-righteousness, but who one day might also live to regret what you have done. David Horowitz is editor-in-chief of FrontPageMagazine.com and president of the Center for the Study of Popular Culture. He also appears frequently on the Fox News Channel. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From donlogs at cablespeed.com Fri Oct 5 17:25:54 2001 From: donlogs at cablespeed.com (Don Logsdon) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 17:25:54 -0700 Subject: SCN: Re: Lesson for anti-war References: <200110052048.NAA09992@scn.org> Message-ID: <001001c14dfd$76d63920$f3ccff40@cablespeed.com> It just might be that the reason we lost was because we were on the wrong side in that war. Trying to impose a government on a people who do not want it imposed is a difficult if not impossible task Great Britain found that out in the colonies in the 177x's. These problems are never as simple as the simplistic thinkers would have us believe. As to the current problem, I know every body says war... but a terrorist act does not create a war. Who is at war with whom in the USA - We have our terrorist group which was tolerated, if not aided and abetted, by State and local governments. The organization - The KKK which is, by any reasonable definition, a terrorist organization. Don Logsdon * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From tuanmd at scn.org Fri Oct 5 21:29:13 2001 From: tuanmd at scn.org (TuanMD) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 21:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: What America can expect in a war against terrorists. Message-ID: <200110060429.VAA28621@scn.org> Dr. Tony Kern, a former USAF Lieutenant Colonel, authored the following letter about what America can expect in a war against terrorists. Recently, I was asked to look at the recent events through the lens of military history. I have joined the cast of thousands who have written an "open letter to Americans." 14 September, 2001 Dear friends and fellow Americans Like everyone else in this great country, I am reeling from last week's attack on our sovereignty. But unlike some, I am not reeling from surprise. As a career soldier and a student and teacher of military history, I have a different perspective and I think you should hear it. This war will be won or lost by the American citizens, not diplomats, politicians or soldiers. Let me briefly explain. In spite of what the media, and even our own government is telling us, this act was not committed by a group of mentally deranged fanatics. To dismiss them as such would be among the gravest of mistakes. This attack was committed by a ferocious, intelligent and dedicated adversary. Don't take this the wrong way. I don't admire these men and I deplore their tactics, but I respect their capabilities. The many parallels that have been made with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor are apropos. Not only because it was a brilliant sneak attack against a complacent America, but also because we may well be pulling our new adversaries out of caves 30 years after we think this war is over, just like my father's generation had to do with the formidable Japanese in the years following WW II. These men hate the United States with all of their being, and we must not underestimate the power of their moral commitment. Napoleon, perhaps the world's greatest combination of soldier and statesman, stated the moral is to the physical as three is to one. Patton thought the Frenchman underestimated its importance and said moral conviction was five times more important in battle than physical strength. Our enemies are willing -- better said anxious -- to give their lives for their cause. How committed are we America? And for how long? In addition to demonstrating great moral conviction, the recent attack demonstrated a mastery of some of the basic fundamentals of warfare taught to most military officers worldwide, namely simplicity, security and surprise. When I first heard rumors that some of these men may have been trained at our own Air War College, it made perfect sense to me. This was not a random act of violence, and we can expect the same sort of military competence to be displayed in the battle to come. This war will escalate, with a good portion of it happening right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. These men will not go easily into the night. They do not fear us. We must not fear them. In spite of our overwhelming conventional strength as the world's only superpower (a truly silly term), we are the underdog in this fight. As you listen to the carefully scripted rhetoric designed to prepare us for the march for war, please realize that America is not equipped or seriously trained for the battle ahead. To be certain, our soldiers are much better than the enemy, and we have some excellent counter-terrorist organizations, but they are mostly trained for hostage rescues, airfield seizures, or the occasional body snatch, (which may come in handy). We will be fighting a war of annihilation, because if their early efforts are any indication, our enemy is ready and willing to die to the last man. Eradicating the enemy will be costly and time consuming. They have already deployed their forces in as many as 20 countries, and are likely living the lives of everyday citizens. Simply put, our soldiers will be tasked with a search and destroy mission on multiple foreign landscapes, and the public must be patient and supportive until the strategy and tactics can be worked out. For the most part, our military is still in the process of redefining itself and is presided over by men and women who grew up with - and were promoted because they excelled in - Cold War doctrine, strategy and tactics. This will not be linear warfare, there will be no clear centers of gravity to strike with high technology weapons. Our vast technological edge will certainly be helpful, but it will not be decisive. Perhaps the perfect metaphor for the coming battle was introduced by the terrorists themselves aboard the hijacked aircraft -- this will be a knife fight, and it will be won or lost by the ingenuity and will of citizens and soldiers, not by software or smart bombs. We must also be patient with our military leaders. Unlike Americans who are eager to put this messy time behind us, our adversaries have time on their side, and they will use it. They plan to fight a battle of attrition, hoping to drag the battle out until the American public loses its will to fight. This might be difficult to believe in this euphoric time of flag waving and patriotism, but it is generally acknowledged that America lacks the stomach for a long fight. We need only look as far back as Vietnam, when North Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap (also a military history teacher) defeated the United States of America without ever winning a major tactical battle. American soldiers who marched to war cheered on by flag waving Americans in 1965 were reviled and spat upon less than three years later when they returned. Although we hope that Osama Bin Laden is no Giap, he is certain to understand and employ the concept. We can expect not only large doses of pain like the recent attacks, but also less audacious sand in the gears tactics, ranging from livestock infestations to attacks at water supplies and power distribution facilities. These attacks are designed to hit us in our comfort zone forcing the average American to pay more and play less and eventually eroding our resolve. But it can only work if we let it. It is clear to me that the will of the American citizenry - you and I - is the center of gravity the enemy has targeted. It will be the fulcrum upon which victory or defeat will turn. He believes us to be soft, impatient, and self-centered. He may be right, but if so, we must change. The Prussian general Carl von Clausewitz, (the most often quoted and least read military theorist in history), says that there is a remarkable trinity of war that is composed of the (1) will of the people, (2) the political leadership of the government, and (3) the chance and probability that plays out on the field of battle, in that order. Every American citizen was in the crosshairs of last Tuesday's attack, not just those that were unfortunate enough to be in the World Trade Center or Pentagon. The will of the American people will decide this war. If we are to win, it will be because we have what it takes to persevere through a few more hits, learn from our mistakes, improvise, and adapt. If we can do that, we will eventually prevail. Everyone I've talked to in the past few days has shared a common frustration, saying in one form or another, "I just wish I could do something!" You are already doing it. Just keep faith in America, and continue to support your President and military, and the outcome is certain. If we fail to do so, the outcome is equally certain. God Bless America Dr. Tony Kern, Lt Col, USAF (Ret) Former Director of Military History, USAF Academy http://www.snopes.com/rumors/tonykern.htm * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Fri Oct 5 23:02:22 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 23:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Lesson for anti-war In-Reply-To: <200110052048.NAA09992@scn.org> Message-ID: Your message (that all the "blood" of the Vietnam War is the fault of the anti-war protesters, etc.) can be described succinctly in one word: CRAP! At somewhat greater length: It is a perversion of the facts so extreme it offends the intellect, an odious and thoroughly reprehensible attempt to shift responsibility for a war that we were never winning, and should not have even been in, and a quite un-American call to stifle dissent that was thoroughly and properly discredited and rejected thirty years ago. There are a lot of excellent reasons why we should NOT go to war. But discussion is not encouraged by this rhetorical _crap_ of blaming the results of war on those who oppose it. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jackie78 at aemail4u.com Sun Oct 7 12:28:51 2001 From: jackie78 at aemail4u.com (jackie78 at aemail4u.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 14:28:51 -0500 Subject: SCN: Tired of Outrageous LD bills-2.9 cents per min! Message-ID: <000034944035$00002864$000001ae@> * * * * * * * For The First Time in Telecom History * * * * * * * * * * * * * * You Can Have Your Cake and Eat It Too! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The Best of Both Worlds! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 2.9 Cents per Minute Long Distance * * * * * * * * * OR * * * * * * * UNLIMITED FLAT RATE LONG DISTANCE * * * * * * * * ******************** YOU MAKE THE CALL! ********************** No Credit Check! No Contracts or long Term Obligations! No More "Local Long Distance" Calling! No Fine Print, or Hidden Fees! No Changing Carriers! Just TALK as much as you want with these incredible low rates 2.9 cents a minute or Flate Rate * * * * * * * * * * * ABSOLUTELY NO GIMMICKS * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ACTIVATION IN 48 HOURS * * * * * * * * * * FOR MORE INFORMATION: on our 2.9 cents a minute Long Distance OR our Unlimited Long Distance click on the hyperlink below and mailto: bestinflatrate at aemail4u.com Type=more info in the subjct box. To unsubscribe:ilike2_9_ld at yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Sun Oct 7 14:57:21 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 14:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: The bombing has started -- rally today Message-ID: <200110072157.OAA29235@scn.org> The US has started air attacks on Afghanistan. a PEACEFUL gathering is planned for 5 p.m., today, Sunday Oct 7, at the Federal Building, 2nd & Marion, downtown Seattle. if for any reason people are prevented from getting to the Federal Building, an alternate location is Westlake Park, 4th & Pine, downtown Seattle. This is an important time to show opposition to killing people; killing innocent people in Afghanistan only compounds the grief of the world, and does nothing to prevent terrorism. Please, if you are opposed to the US attacks, make your voice heard however you can. If you can get together with some like minded people with signs or banners anywhere people gather, please do! Seattle 911 Peace Coalition http://www.scn.org/911peace * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Fri Oct 5 20:58:20 2001 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:58:20 -0700 Subject: SCN: Re: Lesson for anti-war References: <200110052048.NAA09992@scn.org> Message-ID: <002501c14fc1$bdd638a0$7152fea9@desktop> Whew! What distorted thinking. "The > blood of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, and tens of thousands of > Americans, is on the hands of the anti-war activists who prolonged the > struggle and gave victory to the Communists. It's logic like this that blames the rape victim for being raped. Tuan, rule number one in first grade logic is: "Don't blame those against killing when others kill." ----- Original Message ----- From: TuanMD To: Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 1:48 PM Subject: SCN: Lesson for anti-war > Anti-War Demonstrators Should Think Twice > Wednesday, October 03, 2001 > By David Horowitz from FOX News > > I am a former anti-war activist who helped > to organize the first campus demonstration against the war in Vietnam > at the University of California, Berkeley in 1962. I appeal to all > those young people who participated in "anti-war" demonstrations on > 150 college campuses this week, to think again and not to join an > "anti-war" effort against America's coming battle with international > terrorism. > > The hindsight of history has shown that our > efforts in the 1960s to end the war in Vietnam had two practical > effects. The first was to prolong the war itself. Every testimony by > North Vietnamese generals in the postwar years has affirmed that they > knew they could not defeat the United States on the battlefield, and > that they counted on the division of our people at home to win the war > for them. The Vietcong forces we were fighting in South Vietnam were > destroyed in 1968. In other words, most of the war and most of the > casualties in the war occurred because the dictatorship of North > Vietnam counted on the fact Americans would give up the battle rather > than pay the price necessary to win it. This is what happened. The > blood of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, and tens of thousands of > Americans, is on the hands of the anti-war activists who prolonged the > struggle and gave victory to the Communists. > > The second effect of the war was to > surrender South Vietnam to the forces of Communism. This resulted in > the imposition of a monstrous police state, the murder of hundreds of > thousands of innocent South Vietnamese, the incarceration in > "re-education camps" of hundreds of thousands more, and a quarter of a > century of abject poverty imposed by crackpot Marxist economic plans, > which continue to this day. This, too, is the responsibility of the > so-called anti-war movement of the 1960s. > > I say "so-called anti-war movement," > because while many Americans were sincerely troubled by America's war > effort, the organizers of this movement were Marxists and radicals who > supported a Communist victory and an American defeat. Today the same > people and their youthful followers are organizing the campus > demonstrations against America's effort to defend its citizens against > the forces of international terrorism and anti-American hatred, > responsible for the September attacks. > > I know, better than most, the importance of > protecting freedom of speech and the right of citizens to dissent. But > I also know better than most, that there is a difference between > honest dissent and malevolent hate, between criticism of national > policy, and sabotage of the nation's defenses. In the 1960s and 1970s, > the tolerance of anti-American hatreds was so high, that the line > between dissent and treason was eventually erased. Along with > thousands of other New Leftists, I was one who crossed the line > between dissent and actual treason. (I have written an account of > these matters in my autobiography, Radical Son). I did so for what I > thought were the noblest of reasons: to advance the cause of "social > justice" and "peace." I have lived to see how wrong I was and how much > damage we did - especially to those whose cause we claimed to embrace, > the peasants of Indo-China who suffered grievously from our support > for the Communist enemy. I came to see how precious are the freedoms > and opportunities afforded by America to the poorest and most humble > of its citizens, and how rare its virtues are in the world at large. > > If I have one regret from my radical years, > it is that this country was too tolerant towards the treason of its > enemies within. If patriotic Americans had been more vigilant in the > defense of their country, if they had called things by their right > names, if they had confronted us with the seriousness of our attacks, > they might have caught the attention of those of us who were > well-meaning but utterly misguided. And they might have stopped us in > our tracks. > This appeal is for those of you who are out > there today attacking your country, full of your own > self-righteousness, but who one day might also live to regret what you > have done. > David Horowitz is editor-in-chief of > FrontPageMagazine.com and president of the Center for the Study of > Popular Culture. He also appears frequently on the Fox News Channel. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From rockybay at scn.org Sun Oct 7 23:35:55 2001 From: rockybay at scn.org (Malcolm Taran) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Lesson for anti-war Message-ID: (Thread of TuanMD and J Johnson) --> Is this satire or a hoax? --> A 700 Club feature? --> In what medium did the original appear? References? On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, 13:48:05, TuanMD wrote: > Anti-War Demonstrators Should Think Twice > Wednesday, October 03, 2001 > By David Horowitz from FOX News > > I am a former anti-war activist who helped > to organize the first campus demonstration against the war in Vietnam > at the University of California, Berkeley in 1962. I appeal to all > those young people who participated in "anti-war" demonstrations on > 150 college campuses this week, to think again and not to join an > "anti-war" effort against America's coming battle with international > terrorism. > [snip] A most succinct evaluation re. the above is chapter five in Barbara Tuchman's _The March of Folly: from Troy to Vietnam_, NY: Knopf, '84 (SPL 909.08 T79M), as well as providing context with the continuity of the book. (Tuchman is the author of _The Guns of August_.) "Ignorance was not a factor in the American endeavor in Vietnam pursued through five successive presidencies, altough it was to become an excuse. Ignorance of country and culture there may have been, but not ignorance of the contra-indications, even the barriers, to achieving the objective of American policy. All the conditions and reasons precluding a successful outcome were recognized or foreseen at one time or another during the thirty years of our involvement. American intervention was not a progress sucked step by step into an unsuspected quagmire. At no time were policy-makers unaware of the hazards, obstacles and negative developments. American intelligence was adequate, informed observation flowed steadily from the field to the capital, special investigative missions were repeatedly sent out, independent reportage to balance professional optimism--when that prevailed--was never lacking. The folly consisted not in pursuit of a goal in ignorance of the obstacles but in persistence in the pursuit despite accumulating evidence that the goal was unattainable, and the effect disproportionate to the American interest and eventually damaging to American society, reputation and disposable power in the world." (Tuchman, '84. p.234.) _The Pentagon Papers_ need only be mentioned. Great quotes from the Monday evening (10/1) Washington News Council forum at Town Hall, 8th and Seneca: "I wish they would just get this war going so I can plan my Thanksgiving vacation." -Kim Murphy, Northwest Bureau Chief, LA Times "Anyone who criticizes U.S. policy at this point is an irrelevant intellectual and frankly, profane." -Lt. Gen. James Hill, Commanding General, I Corp and Fort Lewis, U.S. Army TuanMD, Thank you for providing a ref. link for your post > Subject: SCN: What America can expect in a war against terrorists. Dr. Tony Kern, a former USAF Lieutenant Colonel, authored the following letter about what America can expect in a war against terrorists. [snip] http://www.snopes.com/rumors/tonykern.htm [snip] > Malcolm Taran ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 00:15:12 EDT From: MTap706180 at aol.com To: 911peace <911peace at scn.org> Subject: FW: Brzezinski admits: Afghan Islamism was made in Washington For those of you who have not read _Rogue State_ and are interested in doing that, there is a link in this article to a website where part of it is posted. Reading even only the introduction will be educational. cheers Mary Elynne http://emperors-clothes.com/interviews/brz.htm Ex-National Security Chief Brzezinski admits: Afghan Islamism was made in Washington [DC] Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser in 'Le Nouvel Observateur' (France), Jan 15-21, 1998, p. 76 Translated by Bill Blum ======================================= A couple of thoughts about the Brzezinski interview below. First, it flatly contradicts the common justrification for U.S. actions in Afghanistan during the 1980s: that the U.S. simply aided forces resisting Soviet imperialism. Brzezinski makes clear that the Soviets were baited into sending forces to Afghanistan; thus their actions were defensive. Moreover, and the U.S. used the violent Wahhabi (Saudi Arabian) form of Islam to create a monster-movement which plagues the world today. For more on this, see 'Articles Documenting U.S. Creation of Taliban and bin Laden's Terrorist Network' at http://emperors-clothes.com/docs/doc.htm Here's the interview: Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct? Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention. Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it? B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would. Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today? B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire. Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists? B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war? Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today. B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries. *** Note: There are at least two editions of 'Le Nouvel Observateur.' With apparently the sole exception of the Library of Congress, the version sent to the United States is shorter than the French version. The Brzezinski interview was not included in the shorter version. * Translated from the French by Bill Blum, author of "Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II" and "Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower" Portions of the books can be read at: http://members.aol.com/superogue/homepage.htm = = = = = = = = = = = = Further Reading = = = = = = = = = = Brzezinski is very much a part of the U.S. foreign policy establishment today, and the strategy he helped develop is crucial to U.S. government actions today. See: •'Why Washington Wants Afghanistan' by Jared Israel, Rick Rozoff & Nico Varkevisser at http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/afghan.htm •'NATO Buildup in the Balkans: Part of a Deadly Game' by Jared Israel at http://emperors-clothes.com/news/farish.htm •'Why is NATO Decimating the Balkans and Trying to Force Milosevic to Surrender?' By Jared Israel and Nico Varkevisser at http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/whyisn.htm [end] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Mon Oct 8 00:01:11 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 00:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: What America can expect in a war against terrorists. In-Reply-To: <200110060429.VAA28621@scn.org> Message-ID: [SNIP] > American soldiers who > marched to war cheered on by flag waving Americans in 1965 > were reviled and spat upon less than three years later when > they returned. I'd love to know the history of this cliche of the anti-war movement spitting at returning soldiers. I was very active in the movement against the Vietnam War. I never witnessed a single incident of ths sort. Plenty of ex-soldiers were active against the war (surely the existence of VVAW is a lot better documented than anyone spitting at anyone). I don't doubt for a moment that somewhere in the chaos of those years some misguided, ill-informed pseudo-radicals spat at soldiers, but the overwhelming attitude of the anti-war movement was to see soldiers as potential allies against a war whose horror they knew far better than the rest of us did. People who opposed the war have been key in organizations to support its veterans, ranging from the fight to get benefits for victims of Agent Orange to the fight to get some sort of GI Bill in the wake of the war. Are there soldiers who did some blameworthy things in the war? Damn straight. But I think nearly all of us opposed to the war understood that the war was one big atrocity driven by the high command and that the soldiers (mostly draftees) who fought in the war were not the people to blame for that. Joe Mabel * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Mon Oct 8 00:22:13 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 00:22:13 -0700 Subject: SCN: Lesson for anti-war References: Message-ID: <3BC15425.88542A17@blarg.net> I have not bothered to look for the original citation, but I have seen Horowitz on TV under other circumstances and this certainly sounds like him. He was a leftie who became disillusioned with the left, joined the right, and has been making a good living attacking the left since. Who knows if he was really as important in the left as he says he was. While some of the stuff he says in other venues makes sense, and is at least open to debate, this is pure garbage. As one of those demonstrators I can say with certainty that we did not have the power to cause US failure in Vietnam, our gov failed on its own. Like so many righties, he is terminally cranky, and while he also admits that we have complex problems, he finds that he prefers simple, or is that simplistic, solutions. And above all, wave the flag and agree with the gov. Like the current war on drugs, the lament that "if only we got serious and had the full support of the public, we could win this war" was used regarding Vietnam and is used to ignore and pesky little facts that keep popping up about the impossibility of winning then and in our current drug war. Even when Russia was a complete police state, people used drugs. Even in China, where people can be put to death (or slave labor for years) people use drugs. And nothing can stop people from fighting for their homes, except total genocide, even in Vietnam. Like Fox News (fair and balanced reporting they keep saying), when in doubt the right attacks the left, or the middle since they cannot tell the difference. Keep in mind that these people considered Clinton a screaming leftist! One newletter I read recently pointed out that the 100 million bucks the right got spent in trying to castrate Clinton could have been spent on paying attention to terrorism. And maybe even paying attention to all sorts of other important stuff happening to the country. Thanks for your quote from Tuchman, she says it so well.... -sharma Malcolm Taran wrote: > > (Thread of TuanMD and J Johnson) > > --> Is this satire or a hoax? > --> A 700 Club feature? > --> In what medium did the original appear? References? > > On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, 13:48:05, TuanMD wrote: > > Anti-War Demonstrators Should Think Twice > > Wednesday, October 03, 2001 > > By David Horowitz from FOX News > > > > I am a former anti-war activist who helped > > to organize the first campus demonstration against the war in Vietnam > > at the University of California, Berkeley in 1962. I appeal to all > > those young people who participated in "anti-war" demonstrations on > > 150 college campuses this week, to think again and not to join an > > "anti-war" effort against America's coming battle with international > > terrorism. > > [snip] > > A most succinct evaluation re. the above is chapter five > in Barbara Tuchman's > _The March of Folly: from Troy to Vietnam_, NY: Knopf, '84 > (SPL 909.08 T79M), > as well as providing context with the continuity of the book. > (Tuchman is the author of _The Guns of August_.) > > "Ignorance was not a factor in the American endeavor in Vietnam > pursued through five successive presidencies, altough it was to > become an excuse. Ignorance of country and culture there may > have been, but not ignorance of the contra-indications, even the > barriers, to achieving the objective of American policy. All the > conditions and reasons precluding a successful outcome were > recognized or foreseen at one time or another during the thirty > years of our involvement. American intervention was not a > progress sucked step by step into an unsuspected quagmire. At no > time were policy-makers unaware of the hazards, obstacles and > negative developments. American intelligence was adequate, > informed observation flowed steadily from the field to the > capital, special investigative missions were repeatedly sent out, > independent reportage to balance professional optimism--when that > prevailed--was never lacking. The folly consisted not in pursuit > of a goal in ignorance of the obstacles but in persistence in the > pursuit despite accumulating evidence that the goal was > unattainable, and the effect disproportionate to the American > interest and eventually damaging to American society, reputation > and disposable power in the world." (Tuchman, '84. p.234.) > > _The Pentagon Papers_ need only be mentioned. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Mon Oct 8 00:38:33 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 00:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Lesson for anti-war / Horowitz In-Reply-To: <3BC15425.88542A17@blarg.net> Message-ID: For what it's worth, yes, David Horowitz was approximately "as important in the left as he says he was." He was founder and editor of Ramparts magazine, which for was the most prestigious magazine of the New Left. Because it was a glossy, it reached a lot of people who were disinclined to read obviously "underground" papers. Horowitz made a disastrous recommendation to Betty van Patter to keep books for the Black Panthers in the days when the grup had become so corrupt that Bobby Seale had quit, calling for the Panthers to shut down. Van Patter ended up dead. It is not clear how much Horowitz blames himself for Van Patter's death, but it is clear that he reacted to this by a complete reversal of his political position over then next few years. By the time Reagan was running for President in 1980, Horowitz was firmly in the Reagan camp. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Mon, 8 Oct 2001, sharma at blarg.net wrote: > > > I have not bothered to look for the > original citation, but I have seen > Horowitz on TV under other circumstances > and this certainly sounds like him. He > was a leftie who became disillusioned > with the left, joined the right, and has > been making a good living attacking the > left since. Who knows if he was really > as important in the left as he says he > was. While some of the stuff he says in > other venues makes sense, and is at > least open to debate, this is pure > garbage. > > As one of those demonstrators I can say > with certainty that we did not have the > power to cause US failure in Vietnam, > our gov failed on its own. Like so many > righties, he is terminally cranky, and > while he also admits that we have > complex problems, he finds that he > prefers simple, or is that simplistic, > solutions. And above all, wave the flag > and agree with the gov. > > Like the current war on drugs, the > lament that "if only we got serious and > had the full support of the public, we > could win this war" was used regarding > Vietnam and is used to ignore and pesky > little facts that keep popping up about > the impossibility of winning then and in > our current drug war. Even when Russia > was a complete police state, people used > drugs. Even in China, where people can > be put to death (or slave labor for > years) people use drugs. And nothing can > stop people from fighting for their > homes, except total genocide, even in > Vietnam. > > Like Fox News (fair and balanced > reporting they keep saying), when in > doubt the right attacks the left, or the > middle since they cannot tell the > difference. Keep in mind that these > people considered Clinton a screaming > leftist! > > One newletter I read recently pointed > out that the 100 million bucks the right > got spent in trying to castrate Clinton > could have been spent on paying > attention to terrorism. And maybe even > paying attention to all sorts of other > important stuff happening to the > country. > > Thanks for your quote from Tuchman, she > says it so well.... > > -sharma > > > Malcolm Taran wrote: > > > > (Thread of TuanMD and J Johnson) > > > > --> Is this satire or a hoax? > > --> A 700 Club feature? > > --> In what medium did the original appear? References? > > > > On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, 13:48:05, TuanMD wrote: > > > Anti-War Demonstrators Should Think Twice > > > Wednesday, October 03, 2001 > > > By David Horowitz from FOX News > > > > > > I am a former anti-war activist who helped > > > to organize the first campus demonstration against the war in Vietnam > > > at the University of California, Berkeley in 1962. I appeal to all > > > those young people who participated in "anti-war" demonstrations on > > > 150 college campuses this week, to think again and not to join an > > > "anti-war" effort against America's coming battle with international > > > terrorism. > > > [snip] > > > > A most succinct evaluation re. the above is chapter five > > in Barbara Tuchman's > > _The March of Folly: from Troy to Vietnam_, NY: Knopf, '84 > > (SPL 909.08 T79M), > > as well as providing context with the continuity of the book. > > (Tuchman is the author of _The Guns of August_.) > > > > "Ignorance was not a factor in the American endeavor in Vietnam > > pursued through five successive presidencies, altough it was to > > become an excuse. Ignorance of country and culture there may > > have been, but not ignorance of the contra-indications, even the > > barriers, to achieving the objective of American policy. All the > > conditions and reasons precluding a successful outcome were > > recognized or foreseen at one time or another during the thirty > > years of our involvement. American intervention was not a > > progress sucked step by step into an unsuspected quagmire. At no > > time were policy-makers unaware of the hazards, obstacles and > > negative developments. American intelligence was adequate, > > informed observation flowed steadily from the field to the > > capital, special investigative missions were repeatedly sent out, > > independent reportage to balance professional optimism--when that > > prevailed--was never lacking. The folly consisted not in pursuit > > of a goal in ignorance of the obstacles but in persistence in the > > pursuit despite accumulating evidence that the goal was > > unattainable, and the effect disproportionate to the American > > interest and eventually damaging to American society, reputation > > and disposable power in the world." (Tuchman, '84. p.234.) > > > > _The Pentagon Papers_ need only be mentioned. > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Mon Oct 8 00:40:22 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 00:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: What America can expect in a war against terrorists. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Oct 2001, Joe Mabel wrote: > I'd love to know the history of this cliche of the anti-war movement > spitting at returning soldiers. ... I heard something once that something of the sort happened at Travis AFB--or some airport in California. An extreme, isolated incident at the most--but a powerful symbol for those would believe it was so. I don't believe it was so generally, or even significantly, and have good grounds for saying so because I was both in the war, and against the war. If we had been spitting at returned soldiers it would have been very slippery doings as about half the people I worked with in protesting the war were active duty military. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From rockybay at scn.org Mon Oct 8 00:58:48 2001 From: rockybay at scn.org (Malcolm Taran) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 00:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Lesson for anti-war Message-ID: *** further message follows short ">" excerpt *** *** delete previous duplicate Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:35:55 *** (Thread of TuanMD and J Johnson) --> Is this satire or a hoax? --> A 700 Club feature? --> In what medium did the original appear? References? On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, 13:48:05, TuanMD wrote: > Anti-War Demonstrators Should Think Twice > Wednesday, October 03, 2001 > By David Horowitz from FOX News > > I am a former anti-war activist who helped > to organize the first campus demonstration against the war in Vietnam > at the University of California, Berkeley in 1962. I appeal to all > those young people who participated in "anti-war" demonstrations on > 150 college campuses this week, to think again and not to join an > "anti-war" effort against America's coming battle with international > terrorism. > [snip] A most succinct evaluation re. the above is chapter five in Barbara Tuchman's _The March of Folly: from Troy to Vietnam_, NY: Knopf, '84 (SPL 909.08 T79M), as well as providing context with the continuity of the book. (Tuchman is the author of _The Guns of August_.) "Ignorance was not a factor in the American endeavor in Vietnam pursued through five successive presidencies, altough it was to become an excuse. Ignorance of country and culture there may have been, but not ignorance of the contra-indications, even the barriers, to achieving the objective of American policy. All the conditions and reasons precluding a successful outcome were recognized or foreseen at one time or another during the thirty years of our involvement. American intervention was not a progress sucked step by step into an unsuspected quagmire. At no time were policy-makers unaware of the hazards, obstacles and negative developments. American intelligence was adequate, informed observation flowed steadily from the field to the capital, special investigative missions were repeatedly sent out, independent reportage to balance professional optimism--when that prevailed--was never lacking. The folly consisted not in pursuit of a goal in ignorance of the obstacles but in persistence in the pursuit despite accumulating evidence that the goal was unattainable, and the effect disproportionate to the American interest and eventually damaging to American society, reputation and disposable power in the world." (Tuchman, '84. p.234.) _The Pentagon Papers_ need only be mentioned. Great quotes from the Monday evening (10/1) Washington News Council forum at Town Hall, 8th and Seneca: "I wish they would just get this war going so I can plan my Thanksgiving vacation." -Kim Murphy, Northwest Bureau Chief, LA Times "Anyone who criticizes U.S. policy at this point is an irrelevant intellectual and frankly, profane." -Lt. Gen. James Hill, Commanding General, I Corp and Fort Lewis, U.S. Army TuanMD, Thank you for providing a ref. link for your post > Subject: SCN: What America can expect in a war against terrorists. Dr. Tony Kern, a former USAF Lieutenant Colonel, authored the following letter about what America can expect in a war against terrorists. [snip] http://www.snopes.com/rumors/tonykern.htm [snip] > Malcolm Taran ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 00:15:12 EDT From: MTap706180 at aol.com To: 911peace <911peace at scn.org> Subject: FW: Brzezinski admits: Afghan Islamism was made in Washington For those of you who have not read _Rogue State_ and are interested in doing that, there is a link in this article to a website where part of it is posted. Reading even only the introduction will be educational. cheers Mary Elynne http://emperors-clothes.com/interviews/brz.htm Ex-National Security Chief Brzezinski admits: Afghan Islamism was made in Washington [DC] Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser in 'Le Nouvel Observateur' (France), Jan 15-21, 1998, p. 76 Translated by Bill Blum ======================================= A couple of thoughts about the Brzezinski interview below. First, it flatly contradicts the common justrification for U.S. actions in Afghanistan during the 1980s: that the U.S. simply aided forces resisting Soviet imperialism. Brzezinski makes clear that the Soviets were baited into sending forces to Afghanistan; thus their actions were defensive. Moreover, and the U.S. used the violent Wahhabi (Saudi Arabian) form of Islam to create a monster-movement which plagues the world today. For more on this, see 'Articles Documenting U.S. Creation of Taliban and bin Laden's Terrorist Network' at http://emperors-clothes.com/docs/doc.htm Here's the interview: Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct? Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention. Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it? B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would. Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today? B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire. Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists? B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war? Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today. B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries. *** Note: There are at least two editions of 'Le Nouvel Observateur.' With apparently the sole exception of the Library of Congress, the version sent to the United States is shorter than the French version. The Brzezinski interview was not included in the shorter version. * Translated from the French by Bill Blum, author of "Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II" and "Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower" Portions of the books can be read at: http://members.aol.com/superogue/homepage.htm = = = = = = = = = = = = Further Reading = = = = = = = = = = Brzezinski is very much a part of the U.S. foreign policy establishment today, and the strategy he helped develop is crucial to U.S. government actions today. See: •'Why Washington Wants Afghanistan' by Jared Israel, Rick Rozoff & Nico Varkevisser at http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/afghan.htm •'NATO Buildup in the Balkans: Part of a Deadly Game' by Jared Israel at http://emperors-clothes.com/news/farish.htm •'Why is NATO Decimating the Balkans and Trying to Force Milosevic to Surrender?' By Jared Israel and Nico Varkevisser at http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/whyisn.htm [end] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Mon Oct 8 08:01:10 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 08:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: What America can expect in a war against terrorists. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree -- it MAY have happened once or twice. But from what I saw there was quite a bit of agreement and, even, solidarity between the soldiers and the protesters. I remember hitchhiking by Fort Lewis and almost every GI giving me the peace sign and they went by on a convoy. I remember spending quite a bit of time also with GIs in Germany. I cringe when I think how much the right likes to keep this spitting idea alive. -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Mon, 8 Oct 2001, J. Johnson wrote: > On Mon, 8 Oct 2001, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > I'd love to know the history of this cliche of the anti-war movement > > spitting at returning soldiers. ... > > I heard something once that something of the sort happened at Travis > AFB--or some airport in California. An extreme, isolated incident at the > most--but a powerful symbol for those would believe it was so. > > I don't believe it was so generally, or even significantly, and have good > grounds for saying so because I was both in the war, and against the war. > If we had been spitting at returned soldiers it would have been very > slippery doings as about half the people I worked with in protesting the > war were active duty military. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Mon Oct 8 12:17:15 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:17:15 -0700 Subject: SCN: What America can expect in a war against terrorists. References: Message-ID: <3BC1FBBB.2FBD6E9B@blarg.net> I think that this is up there with the "bra burning" that we uppity women were supposed to be doing at that same time. It probably did happen a few times but the press made it sound like a daily ritual. I have heard of a few incidents when military guys were treated badly, but by far the majority of leftists I knew considered military guys to be in the same fix all of us were in, sucked into an insane war and etc, and they had been drafted to fight it! I personally worked with groups at Ft. Lewis who were military and who were antiwar. One of the things I think is funny is how the right is always calling the left rude and aggressive, and now, since they have Bush in the whitehouse, how proud they are that "civility has been restored to government". They have neglected to notice that they were the ones acting like vicious attack dogs all during the Clinton years and since they are no longer on "kill" mode, things have calmed down. The right always sees things in stark black and white, i.e. if they are not in charge of everything the left must be. The idea of working in a coalition they are not totally in charge of is very uncomfortable to them, and they react by accusing the left of trying to run everything. Most I have argued with are literal thinkers and are enraged by the idea that most of life comes in shades of grey. Cheers, -sharma Doug Schuler wrote: > > I agree -- it MAY have happened once or twice. But from what I saw > there was quite a bit of agreement and, even, solidarity between > the soldiers and the protesters. I remember hitchhiking by > Fort Lewis and almost every GI giving me the peace sign and they > went by on a convoy. I remember spending quite a bit of time > also with GIs in Germany. I cringe when I think how much the > right likes to keep this spitting idea alive. > > -- Doug > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > ****************************************************************** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Mon Oct 8 12:23:20 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:23:20 -0700 Subject: SCN: [Fwd: FC: Reason's Michael Lynch on plans to decrease financial privacy] Message-ID: <3BC1FD28.F7ABCF5C@blarg.net> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: FC: Reason's Michael Lynch on plans to decrease financial privacy Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 01:35:59 -0400 From: Declan McCullagh Reply-To: declan at well.com To: politech at politechbot.com ********** Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 10:32:44 -0500 Subject: Michael Lynch on financial privacy restrictions From: Virginia Postrel To: Dave Farber , Declan McCullagh http://reason.com/ml/ml100401.html Following the Money The September 11th attack revives an attack on offshore banking By Michael W. Lynch The September 11th attacks have been put to all sorts of uses by interest groups with preexisting agendas. Some of the claims are patently absurd: Some legislators, for instance, are trying to push the Farm Security Act, which protects such things as peanut butter sandwiches, as more necessary than ever in the wake of an attack on American soil. But it¹s the claims that appear reasonable that may prove to be the most damaging to freedom in the long run. The inverse relationship between laughability and lethality is easily explained: The serious claims deal with government police powers, which are necessary to ensure our domestic security but also contain the most potential for abuse. That¹s certainly the case with the anti-terrorism bill Attorney General John Ashcroft has been attempting to rush through Congress. It¹s just as true of money laundering legislation that may be bundled into the anti-terrorism bill or considered as a stand-alone package. At first glance, anti-money-laundering efforts appear directly related to a war on terrorist networks. To do their deeds terrorists must, after all, spend money. And one of Bush¹s first acts was to freeze assets of suspected terrorist funders and ask other governments to do the same. To date, 19 countries have frozen the accounts of 27 groups. This action may in time prove to be overbroad, but the government already had the authority to undertake it. The debate moving forward both in Congress and internationally will have precious little to do with terrorism and plenty to do with the boring but important issues of financial privacy and international tax competition. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) has been campaigning against countries it labels tax havens. Its high-tax members resent their citizens' ability to park money offshore and therefore avoid taxes. The OECD wants information exchange and tax harmonization, but was unable to secure the backing of the Bush administration earlier this year. Without the support of U.S. -- the world¹s largest tax haven by OECD standards -- the initiative stalled. Then the Twin Towers fell. The Financial Times weighed in with an article chiding the U.S. government for hypocrisy and accusing the Center for Freedom and Prosperity, the leading opponent of the OECD¹s efforts, of having a change of heart, since it issued a memo expressing a desire to see those responsible for the World Trade Center massacre brought to justice. Unnamed European Union officials have been quoted saying they think the OECD effort is alive and kicking. Said one EU official, "Politically it is now going to be very difficult to defend the continuation of tax havens." But "tax havens" should and must be defended. The issues of money laundering, financial privacy, and tax harmonization are very distinct from one another. Many countries considered tax havens are willing to work with law enforcement officials to seize the assets of people who commit crimes that are recognized by all involved. Piloting a plane into a skyscraper full of people is such a crime. What some countries reject is treating all their citizens as criminals, and turning over their financial information to governments. Not a single country on OECD¹s tax haven hit list stands accused of harboring al Qaeda money. The same can¹t be said of the U.S. According to The Washington Post, some of the terrorists maintained nine checking accounts at Sun Trust Bank in Florida. This shows the limits of government snooping. U.S. financial transactions and bank accounts are already heavily monitored, something I know from personal experience. Shortly after I opened a checking account at a Washington, D.C. branch of First Union roughly three years ago, it was frozen by the corporate office because I fit a "criminal profile." I¹d opened an account by phone and deposited "large" sums of money in it in a high crime area. The large amount of money was two checks that totaled less than $4,000 and were drawn on First Union accounts. The high crime area was 17th Street and Pennsylvania Avenue, which is almost yelling distance from the White House¹s West Wing. The government and banks are so busy snooping on everybody that they catch virtually nobody. Like our intelligence officials who can¹t analyze all the data they currently collect, U.S. financial snoops are buried under paperwork. Out of 77 million reports that banks filed from 1987 to 1996, the U.S. Treasury Department convicted a mere 580 people of currency transaction violations. Perhaps if the feds weren¹t so busy keeping track of us petty criminals, and the international community wasn¹t so busy trying to insulate high-tax countries from tax competition, they¹d be able to devote the necessary human intelligence to figure out exactly where bin Laden and other al Qaeda funders park their money. After all, they¹ve reportedly been pursing this very issue for more than two years. According to the Post, al Qaeda doesn¹t usually rely on traditional money-laundering techniques such as offshore banks and large wire transfers. Unfortunately, that won¹t stop politicians from going after such banks--and large numbers of law-abiding citizens. Michael W. Lynch (mwlynch at reason.com) is REASON's national correspondent. -- Virginia Postrel (vpostrel at dynamist.com) Editor-at-large, Reason magazine Author, The Future and Its Enemies "Economic Scene" columnist, The New York Times Contributing editor, D Magazine http://www.dynamist.com | http://www.reason.com (214) 219-5725 | (214) 219-1188 (fax) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From donlogs at cablespeed.com Mon Oct 8 15:44:20 2001 From: donlogs at cablespeed.com (Don Logsdon) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:44:20 -0700 Subject: SCN: What America can expect in a war against terrorists. References: Message-ID: <001001c1504a$c7d65900$f3ccff40@cablespeed.com> The subject spitting on troops.... > I cringe when I think how much the > right likes to keep this spitting idea alive. > > -- Doug > I presume since they saw it and those of us on the left didn't that it must be because they were the ones doing the spitting. Don Logsdon * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Sun Oct 7 23:29:38 2001 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:29:38 -0700 Subject: SCN: Lesson for anti-war References: Message-ID: <000001c1509d$da600d20$7152fea9@desktop> Very eloquently put! ----- Original Message ----- From: J. Johnson To: TuanMD Cc: Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 11:02 PM Subject: Re: SCN: Lesson for anti-war > Your message (that all the "blood" of the Vietnam War is the fault of the > anti-war protesters, etc.) can be described succinctly in one word: CRAP! > > At somewhat greater length: It is a perversion of the facts so extreme it > offends the intellect, an odious and thoroughly reprehensible attempt to > shift responsibility for a war that we were never winning, and should not > have even been in, and a quite un-American call to stifle dissent that was > thoroughly and properly discredited and rejected thirty years ago. > > There are a lot of excellent reasons why we should NOT go to war. But > discussion is not encouraged by this rhetorical _crap_ of blaming the > results of war on those who oppose it. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Tue Oct 9 09:17:35 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:17:35 -0700 Subject: SCN: Civil liberties Message-ID: <3BC2C0AF.13634.20D58C3@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ====================== (Dahlia Lithwick, Slate)---As the United States considers new anti- terrorist legislation, it's worth looking at the measures taken by other Western-style democracies to increase national security. Do these strategies work? Are they consistent with our Constitution? National ID cards In France it is mandatory to carry national ID cards, and citizens may be stopped by the police for card inspections at any time. National ID cards are also required in Belgium, Greece, Luxembourg, Portugal, and Spain. The British scrapped national ID cards after World War II but are considering them again in light of Sept. 11. National ID cards are not a component of the new congressional security bill, although several congressmen back them. A new Pew Research Center survey shows that seven out of 10 Americans favor a national ID-card program in which, like the French system, the cards would have to be presented to the police upon demand. Is there a constitutional barrier to a national ID-card requirement in the United States? Not really, but there may be a constitutional barrier to police demanding to see such a card without some suspicion that can be articulated. That might constitute a "seizure" under the Fourth Amendment. TV surveillance British police have used closed-circuit televisions for years to watch for criminal or terrorist activity. The English are watched by 2.5 million closed-circuit TV cameras on subways, in parks, in shopping malls, and on double-decker buses. British authorities claim that the cameras have greatly decreased crime rates in London, and they claim to have apprehended at least one IRA terrorist who had a car bomb. Because the Constitution does not protect privacy in public spaces, there is no legal problem with monitoring public thoroughfares in the United States. Being watched on the street involves no search or seizure, making it analogous to a policeman standing on a street corner. Other surveillance technologies Face-recognition technology has been implemented in Newham, one of London's highest-crime neighborhoods. Special cameras capture images of faces and then compare them to databases of suspected terrorists. Face-recognition technology was used last year to photograph the tens of thousands of fans entering the stadium for Super Bowl XXXV. Civil libertarians call face-recognition technology high-tech racial profiling and say it might be as constitutionally inappropriate as a baseless "virtual lineup." Again, constitutional experts say that since Americans have no privacy expectation in public places, these technologies would likely be deemed permissible. Snooping on private places is a different matter: In last year's thermal imaging case, the Supreme Court prohibited the use of new surveillance technologies on a home without a warrant. Suspicionless searches In Israel, residents and their belongings are routinely searched (without particularized cause or suspicion) by police or security contractors, and are required to pass through metal detectors before entering some shopping centers, airports, or other attractions. Constitutional issues are raised in the United States only if a state actor (i.e., the police) searches you. You can be searched by private guards entering a stadium, a shopping mall, or a school without triggering constitutional claims. The Constitution does require that the police have objective, individualized suspicion (or "probable cause") to search you, your bag, or your car, but the Supreme Court has carved out some exceptions to the rule, such as border searches. Drunk-driving checkpoints and "near-border" stops are considered constitutionally permissible "brief seizures" because they promote special government needs beyond mere criminal law enforcement. Should you provide authorities during the "brief seizure" with some probable cause to search you further, the search is also deemed permissible. Thus, brief seizures outside shops or government buildings might not be unconstitutional if the courts choose to view them in the same ways airports, borders, and government buildings have been treated to date. It's worth noting here that U.S. police are already authorized to conduct searches without warrants in the case of "exigent circumstances," situations where probable cause to get a warrant exists but there's no time to find a magistrate. Example: The police pull your car over and you do something to suggest that you're about to attack them. "Exigent circumstances," "imminent harm," and other general exceptions to the constitutional rights laid out here involve urgent, immediate danger. In much the same way that your free speech rights stop when you tell the police you have a bomb, there will always be situations in which dire emergency outweighs civil rights. It's not clear whether in wartime this can become an exception that swallows the rule. The right to assemble, worship, and speak The German government has approved the lifting of Germany's "religious privilege," which gave religious groups protected status under the law of association. That privilege guaranteed that membership in a religious group could not be seen as a criminal offense. The British government has imposed restrictions on the dissemination of information, forbidden the wearing of badges and uniforms of terrorist groups, and also prohibited membership in any designated terrorist organization. Until recently, British authorities banned the broadcasting of "the words of any speaker" who claimed either to be a spokesman for the IRA or to support terrorism. Whereas criminalizing or attempting to ban certain types of speech, association, or religious affiliation might not be a problem in other democracies, the First Amendment of the Constitution should bar similar legislation in the United States. That said, during World War I, the U.S. government passed the Espionage Act, which made it a crime to criticize the government. Racial profiling Israeli authorities are allowed to single out travelers and citizens alike for questioning and searches based on nothing but racial origin. Vigorous racial profiling is cited by experts as one of the reasons Israeli airplanes are not hijacked. The U.S. Supreme Court has not yet established that racial profiling violates the equal protection clause of the Constitution. The court declined to hear a racial profiling case this week, and the federal courts of appeals currently differ on what constitutes racial profiling and when it's unconstitutional. Indefinite holding The Canadian government imposed its War Measures Act in 1970 after being confronted by militant Quebec separatists during the FLQ crisis, which involved some terrorism and kidnappings. It allowed police to arrest and hold suspected terrorists without bail for up to 90 days. That law is still on the books, although its constitutionality has not been tested under Canada's new bill of rights. France's special anti-terrorism unit can hold suspects for questioning for 96 consecutive hours, of which the first 24 hours may include no contact with an attorney. Britain's anti-terrorist legislation allows individuals to be detained for up to seven days without a court appearance. Congress' proposed new anti-terrorism bill allows authorities to hold foreigners suspected of terrorist activity without charges for up to a week and increases penalties for terrorist activities, but the standard constitutional protections presumably still apply to criminal suspects, ensuring due process, the right to counsel, and the right to have charges brought and bail set within reasonable time periods. Torture Spain and Israel have been known to permit similarly lengthy internments of suspected terrorists without trial, with the added charm of using physical force to extract information and confessions. The British government lost an international court ruling in 1976 prohibiting their use of torture in interrogating suspected IRA terrorists. In 1999, the Israeli Supreme Court outlawed their previously sanctioned practice of allowing "moderate physical pressure" when interrogating suspects. Something akin to "gentle shaking" is still permitted under Israeli law, however, and Israeli authorities will not hesitate to "gently shake" members of suspected suicide cells. Both international and U.S. law prohibit the use of torture to extract information, although, again, under an "imminent threat" of serious harm, U.S. law may well sanction more than just gentle shaking. Assassination In its fight against terrorism, the Israeli government has also condoned "judicially sanctioned executions," that is, assassination of terrorist leaders. The United States does not currently permit assassination, although this is not due to any constitutional barrier. It is established via an executive order that could be repealed at any time. Lawyers for the Clinton administration argued that the United States could legally assassinate Osama Bin Laden, even without repealing the executive order, since killing Bin Laden could be justified as either an act of war or self-defense—both justifications for murder under U.S. and international law. Most nations are not restricted by a supreme constitution and an entrenched bill of rights, nor do they require any constitutional adherence to the notion of a separation of powers. The U.S. Constitution could stand as a barrier to some of these measures as long as the Supreme Court asserts itself. Historically, the high court has been more than generous in allowing the legislative and executive branches to have their unconstitutional ways during wartime. The court stood back while President Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War, and it authorized the internment of Japanese-Americans in 1944. And, as is clear from the discussion above, under "exigent circumstances," many, if not most, civil liberties can be constitutionally suspended. The real test of the new security bill—and the future of some of the measures outlined here—will not be whether they are "constitutional" in theory, but whether the court will find them unconstitutional during the exigent times ahead. Thanks to Prof. Eugene Volokh at UCLA Law School. Copyright 2001 Microsoft Corporation * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Tue Oct 9 17:02:33 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: McDermott Under Fire Message-ID: <200110100002.RAA21803@scn.org> Here is some mail I just received. I just called the local office and voiced my support. I also got the impression that they were having a rough time. --Doug > I have just spoken to a beleaguered young woman in Jim McDermott's > Seattle office (he's my Rep.) who was very, VERY glad to hear from me. She > told me that Rush Limbaugh is featuring McDermott's statement opposing the > bombing on his radio program today (which is apparently being run repeatedly) > and that the Seattle and Washington offices are overrun with ugly calls from > all over the country as a result. PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO CALL AND SUPPORT > HIS COURAGEOUS STANCE. The local number is fairly accessible: 206-553-7170. > > Barbara * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ipicstands at infonegocio.com Thu Oct 11 07:26:50 2001 From: ipicstands at infonegocio.com (ipicstands at infonegocio.com) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:26:50 -0700 Subject: SCN: STANDS PARA FERIAS y EXPOSICIONES Message-ID: <1ns2j83mzesmiih.111020010726@iss> Alcoletge, 9 de octubre de 2001 Se�ores: Son ya m�s de 10 a�os dedicados al dise�o y montaje de stands en ferias de �mbito nacional e internacional. IPIC stands se posiciona en el mercado de la comunicaci�n para ofrecer a las organizaciones, entidades p�blicas y privadas, un servicio integral. Tenemos la posibilidad de ofrecer cualquier tipo de servicio dentro del area de la comunicaci�n. Realizamos el montaje de stands para ferias, exposiciones, congresos, comportamiento gr�fico, y rotulaci�n. Desde la tramitaci�n con la Organizaci�n, hasta la realizaci�n final, pasando por el dise�o, la estructura , desarrollo de stand , y alquiler del mobiliario. Siempre con la mayor profesionalidad, coordinaci�n y control ya que contamos con un gran equipo de trabajo bien preparado y habituado al montaje de stands. Su implicaci�n en la innovaci�n tecnol�gica y mejora continua de los procesos de fabricaci�n, montaje y dise�o de stands, garantiza la elevada calidad de nuestros productos finales. Muestras de nuestros dise�os pueden visitarnos en la direcci�n de nuestra web: http://www.ipic.es. Estamos a su disposici�n y les adjuntamos diversa documentaci�n en nuestra web por si fuera de su inter�s. Saludos Cordiales, Isidro Sentis ipic at infonegocio.com http://www.ipic.es/ Ipic, SL Tel. 973-197152 Fax.973-196141 LLEIDA-ALCOLETGE * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Thu Oct 11 08:02:01 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:02:01 -0700 Subject: SCN: Ads Message-ID: <3BC551F9.12729.6DA87ED@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ======================= (Stefanie Olsen, News.com, excerpts)---Dusseldorf, Germany- based MediaBeam...said it's testing a product that aims to detect ad-blocking software and charge the people using it a fee to view a Web site's content. The product, called AdKey, is scheduled for commercial release by November. MediaBeam's announcement highlights fears among publishers of a consumer backlash against the moneymaking efforts that many sites see as necessary for survival amid a downturn in the advertising market. Numerous Web operators have added fees to services and content that were previously free, while others have opted for more intrusive forms of advertising. Analysts said the introduction of software such as AdKey may spark a series of evasive moves by anti-ad software makers and Web publishers. As Web site operators employ software to block the blockers, ad filtering companies will most likely develop workaround solutions to the technology. "What we have here is the escalation of the arms race between consumers and advertisers," said Jim Nail, an advertising analyst at Forrester Research. For their part, ad-filter makers said they do not believe their products have had a significant effect on the bottom lines of Web publishers; rather, their filters have become a convenient scapegoat for deeper problems in the online-advertising market. "Let's face it, online advertising isn't exactly keeping publishers flush with money, and some might understandably be feeling emotional about the shortfall," said Jason Catlett, president of Junkbusters, which offers free ad-blocking software. "But if people are determined enough to filter ads, then they're unlikely to cough up money to pay for content. Economically it's pretty irrational for publishers to erect these barricades." MediaBeam's Beckhert said he believes there is a large market for his company's software, starting with his own company's Web site, DirectBox.com. Beckhert estimates that 10 percent to 20 percent of DirectBox visitors use ad filter Webwasher, produced by a German spin-off of computer company Siemens. The free product receives about 2,000 to 5,000 downloads per day globally. Industry executives estimate that the population of Net surfers using ad-blocking software is in the range of 2 percent to 5 percent. Software developers for Webwasher and AdSubtract, two popular ad-filter products, claim millions of users worldwide, including many who signed up this year. Most ad-blocking software works by selectively loading graphics on a Web page. For example, an ad filter can screen out graphics based on their dimensions, often standard banner sizes, or by blocking the delivery of graphics served from common ad-network domains such as "ad.doubleclick.com." AdKey operates from the server side through HTTP, by detecting whether the graphics queried for an HTML page have loaded properly. If the graphics have not loaded, the page can deliver a notice that prevents the Web surfer from viewing the page. Web publishers using AdKey must enhance their pages with special AdKey commands to classify content of the site. MediaBeam is planning to license AdKey, a plug-in for Web servers, to corporations using Microsoft's Internet Information Server and Linux Apache, among others. Although the pricing model has not been set yet, Beckhert said that it will most likely cost companies $5,000 for the application. Ed English, CEO of AdSubtract maker Intermute, said other publishers have tried to block visitors who use ad filters from their sites. The technique others have used is to drop a JavaScript code on the surfer's Web browser to detect whether all images were loaded. If not, a message pops up asking visitors not to screen out ads. "We've created workarounds to such problems, so it could escalate into a cat-and-mouse game," English said. "But consumers are fed up with a lack of limits and restraints of what the online advertisers are doing." Horst Joepen, president of Webwasher, says that MediaBeam's software lacks teeth because blocking Internet ads is just one of Webwasher's functions. The free version of the tool, which has more than 5 million users, is an attractive marketing instrument to lure corporations to Webwasher's content-filtering application, which brings in most of its revenues, he said. "Webwasher is not an anti-advertising technology; it's pro-user self- determination," Joepen said. "At the end of the day, they can still make up their mind to see ads or pay for content by choosing the sites they visit." Thomas Matheson, president of...Guidescope, shares the view that filtering is a secondary consideration. "The real issue is not whether people are filtering ads. Why worry about what 5 percent of the population is doing when most of the ads are being ignored?" Copyright 2001 CNET Networks Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 13:13:20 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:13:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: homepage/SCN updates Message-ID: <20011014201320.72718.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> The SCN homepage has been updated a bit. Off the top of my head: 1. There is now a "911 voices" page. (My apologies for not having something in place sooner, but my life was absolutely crazy until the end of September) 2. There are some other updates to featured sites. 3. Information on how to make financial donations to SCN online - quickly. (I didn't know about this until it was pointed out to me. The link was buried as far as I am concerned. Now it isn't - there is a link to donations on the navigation bar on the homepage.) 4. I reorganized the navigation bar on the homepage a bit. It's still a bit of a mess, but it looks a lot better. To my eyes, anyway. 5. There are some other things in the pipeline that were discussed at Excomm. However, as things will happen in any organization, dates get pushed back for any variety of reasons, so I feel it's better to not "Over Delivery and Under Promise", but to "Under Promise and Over Deliver". Things break, unforseen things happen, fate intervenes, et cetera... When something happens, it will happen. I'd rather not announce what everyone is getting for Christmas months before Christmas comes. (This is not to say that there is something new planned for Christmas at SCN. Not that I know of.) What I do know is that there are a lot of people hard at work to bring great things to SCN. And simply keeping it a great place to come to. That list includes (in no particular order): Melissa G, JJ, Martin (I mean Robert), Rod, Julia, Steve G, Ellen, Nathan T. Help, Randy G, Alan, Ti, and all those volunteers who I have met but their name has yet to stick to my sorry brain cells, and those volunteers I have yet to meet. Also, fundraising is here. Please contact Melissa if you have the time to help on fundraising by hand addressing envelopes, stuffing envelopes, etc. The best season for fundraising, statistically speaking, is coming to a close and help is needed. The events of 911 didn't help matters much. If you can't take the time out of your schedule to help out, please send Melissa a "Go Girl" email message. That's enough for now. If you have any questions, concerns, complaints, you know where to find me. Thanks, Patrick ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From brian at happygardening.com Sun Oct 14 17:39:23 2001 From: brian at happygardening.com (Brian High) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:39:23 -0700 Subject: SCN: House Endorses Snoop Bill Message-ID: <00c801c15511$d628fd20$0200005a@happygardening.com> House Endorses Snoop Bill By Declan McCullagh 2:00 a.m. Oct. 13, 2001 PDT WASHINGTON -- The House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly Friday afternoon to hand unprecedented surveillance powers to police. Just hours after the Senate approved its version of the anti-terrorism bill, House legislators followed suit by voting 339-79 to ease limits on wiretapping and Internet monitoring. The big difference: The House attached an expiration date to the "USA Act" (PDF). The wiretap sections expire in December 2004 -- unless the president decides it is in the "national interest" to extend them until December 2006. [...] Frank was talking about a rule handed down from GOP leaders on Friday morning that banned any changes to the USA Act before the vote. Jerrold Nadler (D-New York) said: "We're told we should vote right now before we've had a chance to read the bill. Well, why didn't we take up the committee bill on the House floor earlier this week?" [...] The USA Act stands for "Uniting and Strengthening America." http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47549,00.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Wed Oct 17 15:58:53 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: STAR Class Message-ID: Hi everyone, There is a class scheduled for Thursday, October 18, at 4:30 - 6:30pm at the STAR Center. If anyone is interested in helping out, please come, all are welcome! Thanx, Irene * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Mon Oct 22 17:01:02 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Network problems. Message-ID: Just to let everyone know: from Friday afternoon to Monday morning there was a problem with one of the routers through which SCN, SPL, and the City of Seattle connect to the outside world. Some traffic was coming in and out through an alternate route, but most was not. There is a considerable backlog of e-mail, which will take until Monday evening to deliver. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 19:49:15 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Portal or Destination Message-ID: <20011023024915.56628.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> The question is: Do we want to make SCN a portal or a destination, or a little of both. If we want to make it a portal, then why are we wasting so much time and energy? Any moron can get a Geocities page and put a ton of local links on it and write a piece here and there. Do we want to be morons? No, we are better than that. We want people to come to SCN for the community. We want SCN to come to SCN for SCN. We want them to keep them coming. We want them to keep coming back. We want their friends and family to come to SCN. And, of course, more people means more donations and more servers and more services. And more volunteers. And more chaos and arguing, of course - that's a given, a requirement :^) And how do we keep them coming back? Why should they come back? Do they even have a reason to come to SCN itself, besides the wonderful "What's New" page (which is the best web page that SCN has)? We need to add services and original content. We need to allow people to give feedback that does not go into a blackhole. We want people to post their complaints, their feelings, their thoughts on our site for them and everyone else to see. For lack of a better word, we need to allow people to have mail and interactivity. If you are like me, you don't care too much about a site that has all the information going one way. That is why I want SCN to be the Yahoo of the Seattle community area. Yahoo used to be just a portal to be in the beginning. Now I don't even think of it as a portal as it has become a destination for me. That is what I feel we need to become. I want to see all local sites in our shadow. When people think of Seattle's community online they should think "SCN." I'm not asking for anyone's support. I'm sharing what vision I have. SCN has a lot of great things today and a lot of great volunteers. But we can build on it and make it much greater. Patrick ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Mon Oct 22 21:16:10 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Portal or Destination In-Reply-To: <20011023024915.56628.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well said Patrick. Irene On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > The question is: Do we want to make SCN a portal or a destination, or > a little of both. > > If we want to make it a portal, then why are we wasting so much time > and energy? Any moron can get a Geocities page and put a ton of local > links on it and write a piece here and there. > > Do we want to be morons? No, we are better than that. We want people > to come to SCN for the community. We want SCN to come to SCN for SCN. > > > We want them to keep them coming. We want them to keep coming back. > We want their friends and family to come to SCN. And, of course, more > people means more donations and more servers and more services. And > more volunteers. And more chaos and arguing, of course - that's a > given, a requirement :^) > > And how do we keep them coming back? Why should they come back? Do > they even have a reason to come to SCN itself, besides the wonderful > "What's New" page (which is the best web page that SCN has)? > > We need to add services and original content. We need to allow people > to give feedback that does not go into a blackhole. We want people to > post their complaints, their feelings, their thoughts on our site for > them and everyone else to see. For lack of a better word, we need to > allow people to have mail and interactivity. > > If you are like me, you don't care too much about a site that has all > the information going one way. That is why I want SCN to be the Yahoo > of the Seattle community area. > > Yahoo used to be just a portal to be in the beginning. Now I don't > even think of it as a portal as it has become a destination for me. > That is what I feel we need to become. > > I want to see all local sites in our shadow. When people think of > Seattle's community online they should think "SCN." > > I'm not asking for anyone's support. I'm sharing what vision I have. > SCN has a lot of great things today and a lot of great volunteers. > But we can build on it and make it much greater. > > Patrick > > > > ===== > Patrick Fisher > Webmaster at scn.org > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Tue Oct 23 09:26:34 2001 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Portal or Destination In-Reply-To: <20011023024915.56628.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nicely done! -randy On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > The question is: Do we want to make SCN a portal or a destination, or > a little of both. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Tue Oct 23 10:03:18 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: A Class (fwd) Message-ID: G'day Mates, We are planning the next class at the STAR center for November 29, 2001 at the usual time of 4:30pm. That is the Thursday AFTER Thanksgiving. If anyone would care to assist, we would be most appreciative. If the time is not suitable for you, please contact Randy Hayhurst at his phone number shown below. Thanx, Irene P.S. I will be going off to Ground Zero on November 8 for a few days. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:13:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Special Technology Access Resources To: Irene Mogol Subject: Re: A Class Sounds good. If we appeal for assistance now, we may get others on board since it is over a month away! Thanks, Randy and Hoss, the terrorist dog a/k/a Ohossi Benpoopin Randell E. Hayhurst, Executive Director STAR of Seattle Computer Center (206) 325-4284 http://WWW.scn.org/civic/star On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Irene Mogol wrote: > Hi Randy, > I am going to NYC on November 8, probably be back on the 13th. I don't > want to schedule a class for the 15th in case I stay longer. > How about the last week in November, the 29th, after Thanksgiving. > Let me know what you think about that... > See ya, > Irene > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Oct 23 15:45:23 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Portal or Destination In-Reply-To: <20011023024915.56628.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nice posting Patrick. I want... more support for community activities .. both online and off. more collaborative proejcts with community groups inside and outside of seattle. more involvement in local information and communication policy making. more involvement in innovative projects that support our mission. -- and -- put a pointer to our principles on the first page -- this has been done sporadically. I have NO idea why it is sometimes taken off... http://www.scn.org/commnet/principles.html BTW. here is my presentation on SCN that I just gave in Kyoto last week: http://www.scn.org/commnet/Presentations/kyoto-2001.html We ARE in the news!!! -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > The question is: Do we want to make SCN a portal or a destination, or > a little of both. > > If we want to make it a portal, then why are we wasting so much time > and energy? Any moron can get a Geocities page and put a ton of local > links on it and write a piece here and there. > > Do we want to be morons? No, we are better than that. We want people > to come to SCN for the community. We want SCN to come to SCN for SCN. > > > We want them to keep them coming. We want them to keep coming back. > We want their friends and family to come to SCN. And, of course, more > people means more donations and more servers and more services. And > more volunteers. And more chaos and arguing, of course - that's a > given, a requirement :^) > > And how do we keep them coming back? Why should they come back? Do > they even have a reason to come to SCN itself, besides the wonderful > "What's New" page (which is the best web page that SCN has)? > > We need to add services and original content. We need to allow people > to give feedback that does not go into a blackhole. We want people to > post their complaints, their feelings, their thoughts on our site for > them and everyone else to see. For lack of a better word, we need to > allow people to have mail and interactivity. > > If you are like me, you don't care too much about a site that has all > the information going one way. That is why I want SCN to be the Yahoo > of the Seattle community area. > > Yahoo used to be just a portal to be in the beginning. Now I don't > even think of it as a portal as it has become a destination for me. > That is what I feel we need to become. > > I want to see all local sites in our shadow. When people think of > Seattle's community online they should think "SCN." > > I'm not asking for anyone's support. I'm sharing what vision I have. > SCN has a lot of great things today and a lot of great volunteers. > But we can build on it and make it much greater. > > Patrick > > > > ===== > Patrick Fisher > Webmaster at scn.org > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Oct 23 16:23:31 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Portal or Destination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011023232331.52959.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, Thank you for your feedback. I appreciate it. We should have a link to our principles. I didn't even know about this page. We need to define to others what we are about. Any site should do that and we in particular. I will put the link up tonight. As for the other items, those are harder to define at the moment. They involve levels of involvement and a bunch of other actions and I don't know how we go about that at this moment. Thank you for the pointer about our site. We should mention that as well on the homepage as a featured site of the week. Maybe digital community should be a part of SCN's mission. Again, I don't want to get into that topic at this moment, but it is something to discuss at another time. Please don't get me wrong: I find it all fascinating and I would like to talk to you at another time about this. Maybe we can have a coffee round table somewhere with a bunch of other online community nuts. Thanks, Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > Nice posting Patrick. > > I want... > > more support for community activities .. both online and off. > > more collaborative proejcts with community groups inside and > outside > of seattle. > > more involvement in local information and communication policy > making. > > more involvement in innovative projects that support our mission. > > -- and -- > > put a pointer to our principles on the first page -- this has > been done sporadically. I have NO idea why it is sometimes taken > off... http://www.scn.org/commnet/principles.html > > BTW. here is my presentation on SCN that I just gave in Kyoto > last week: http://www.scn.org/commnet/Presentations/kyoto-2001.html > We ARE in the news!!! > > -- Doug > > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY > * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change > * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 > * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure > * > * is being shaped today. > * > * But by whom and to what ends? > * > > ****************************************************************** > > > On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > > > The question is: Do we want to make SCN a portal or a > destination, or > > a little of both. > > > > If we want to make it a portal, then why are we wasting so much > time > > and energy? Any moron can get a Geocities page and put a ton of > local > > links on it and write a piece here and there. > > > > Do we want to be morons? No, we are better than that. We want > people > > to come to SCN for the community. We want SCN to come to SCN for > SCN. > > > > > > We want them to keep them coming. We want them to keep coming > back. > > We want their friends and family to come to SCN. And, of course, > more > > people means more donations and more servers and more services. > And > > more volunteers. And more chaos and arguing, of course - that's a > > given, a requirement :^) > > > > And how do we keep them coming back? Why should they come back? > Do > > they even have a reason to come to SCN itself, besides the > wonderful > > "What's New" page (which is the best web page that SCN has)? > > > > We need to add services and original content. We need to allow > people > > to give feedback that does not go into a blackhole. We want > people to > > post their complaints, their feelings, their thoughts on our site > for > > them and everyone else to see. For lack of a better word, we need > to > > allow people to have mail and interactivity. > > > > If you are like me, you don't care too much about a site that has > all > > the information going one way. That is why I want SCN to be the > Yahoo > > of the Seattle community area. > > > > Yahoo used to be just a portal to be in the beginning. Now I > don't > > even think of it as a portal as it has become a destination for > me. > > That is what I feel we need to become. > > > > I want to see all local sites in our shadow. When people think of > > Seattle's community online they should think "SCN." > > > > I'm not asking for anyone's support. I'm sharing what vision I > have. > > SCN has a lot of great things today and a lot of great > volunteers. > > But we can build on it and make it much greater. > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > ===== > > Patrick Fisher > > Webmaster at scn.org > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > > http://personals.yahoo.com > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Oct 23 16:31:55 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Portal or Destination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011023233155.9064.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, I think I should make some regular commentary on SCN, where it is, what it is up to: Here on scn at scn.org. It is important that people who care about and are concerned about SCN and the online community should know where things stand. This "forum" can be used as a place for people to explore topics of the online world and how they relate to SCN. It's an opportunity to work on vision, to speak about the "living" part of SCN and it's impacts. I'm not in the right frame of mind to write with any eloquence at this moment, but I thought I'd speak out loud on this. I wanted to respond in a broader sense to what you, Doug, had written about in your message that I am now responding to. I think we need to talk about these issues online and elsewhere. Take care, Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > Nice posting Patrick. > > I want... > > more support for community activities .. both online and off. > > more collaborative proejcts with community groups inside and > outside > of seattle. > > more involvement in local information and communication policy > making. > > more involvement in innovative projects that support our mission. > > -- and -- > > put a pointer to our principles on the first page -- this has > been done sporadically. I have NO idea why it is sometimes taken > off... http://www.scn.org/commnet/principles.html > > BTW. here is my presentation on SCN that I just gave in Kyoto > last week: http://www.scn.org/commnet/Presentations/kyoto-2001.html > We ARE in the news!!! > > -- Doug > > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY > * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change > * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 > * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure > * > * is being shaped today. > * > * But by whom and to what ends? > * > > ****************************************************************** > > > On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > > > The question is: Do we want to make SCN a portal or a > destination, or > > a little of both. > > > > If we want to make it a portal, then why are we wasting so much > time > > and energy? Any moron can get a Geocities page and put a ton of > local > > links on it and write a piece here and there. > > > > Do we want to be morons? No, we are better than that. We want > people > > to come to SCN for the community. We want SCN to come to SCN for > SCN. > > > > > > We want them to keep them coming. We want them to keep coming > back. > > We want their friends and family to come to SCN. And, of course, > more > > people means more donations and more servers and more services. > And > > more volunteers. And more chaos and arguing, of course - that's a > > given, a requirement :^) > > > > And how do we keep them coming back? Why should they come back? > Do > > they even have a reason to come to SCN itself, besides the > wonderful > > "What's New" page (which is the best web page that SCN has)? > > > > We need to add services and original content. We need to allow > people > > to give feedback that does not go into a blackhole. We want > people to > > post their complaints, their feelings, their thoughts on our site > for > > them and everyone else to see. For lack of a better word, we need > to > > allow people to have mail and interactivity. > > > > If you are like me, you don't care too much about a site that has > all > > the information going one way. That is why I want SCN to be the > Yahoo > > of the Seattle community area. > > > > Yahoo used to be just a portal to be in the beginning. Now I > don't > > even think of it as a portal as it has become a destination for > me. > > That is what I feel we need to become. > > > > I want to see all local sites in our shadow. When people think of > > Seattle's community online they should think "SCN." > > > > I'm not asking for anyone's support. I'm sharing what vision I > have. > > SCN has a lot of great things today and a lot of great > volunteers. > > But we can build on it and make it much greater. > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > ===== > > Patrick Fisher > > Webmaster at scn.org > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > > http://personals.yahoo.com > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Oct 23 20:24:54 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: discus in action In-Reply-To: <005701c15c2e$a0b5bb00$97a6e13f@dellxpsr350> Message-ID: <20011024032454.70045.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Steve, I disagree with much of what you say. But you win. You can find another webmaster. I resign. Patrick --- Steve Guest wrote: > Well people have been busy today. > > I have some views on the comments that have been fired around. > These are my > initial thoughts and I will address others further. > > Point-person > At this moment I am the point person within the day to day running > on SCN. > There is no one else currently who should be taking that role. I > am > currently spending about 60 hours a week on this but many do not > see this, > because there is way more to SCN then the Web, SysOps, Education or > Registration. This is why we have Excomm, where decisions are > discussed > and the implications of one person great idea can be seen in the > light of > another's challenges. > > Minutes from all SCN meetings are, as with Excomm, a challenge, but > we pay > Julia to attend and take them. So I have them and when Julia gets > back I > will ask her for them. > > Road-Blocks > Patrick, I would like you to step back a moment and consider what I > said. I > did not want to put up any road blocks, what I was requesting was a > well > thought out proposal which showed consideration for others within > the > operation of SCN. This I have still not seen. This is not a road > block - > it is a request to make a more formal and professional request. If > it is > acceptable, then we can place this into the priority list. > > Unlike the SCN of old, it is now unacceptable to expect a request > on other > volunteer's time and effort to be accepted without allowing them > the > opportunity of thinking about things and giving their input. In > the case of > the BB I still have no answers to the following questions: > 1) what will it take to install it > 2) what are the resources require to run it > 3) is there a proposal to manage the associated storage (as a BB > this will > store data - how much, how long, how managed)? > > These all have a price tag - in system resources and volunteer > hours. So > often in the past, one team in SCN has been only too willing to > propose work > for others without seeking their input. This is now unacceptable. > > I too do not want SCN to stagnate, and it is not. Currently, as we > have > been discussing in ExComm there are many tasks being undertaken. > All have > been prioritized and their impacts and benefits considered. Many > of these > in the area of supporting the Web. > > Information Flow > As for the dissemination of information - I do not want, at this > time, a > free flow of information. Not that this is undesired, but at this > time it > sets expectations and desires which we may not be able to fulfill. > I > already spend way too much time putting out fires around SCN as one > person > tells another person only half a story and they extrapolate away > until the > story is out of control. This actually costs us volunteers, so > currently I > would prefer confirmed details and not group hearsay be put on the > web pages > for our users. > > Randy, I spent a lot of time putting all the SCNII data and other > stuff up > on line. It is there on the web now, but I lost heart because it > was never > linked to. So why should I waste my time putting up information > people will > not release. > > I was also accused of using the web as a soapbox for my own ends. > I have no > idea what or why this was the case. All I did was explain the > current > situation to the users and show some change on our dead front page. > > There was an implication that SCN is static. That is a current > view of the > surface of SCN, but if publicized does a great disservice to those > currently > working hard within SCN to improve things. Currently I would love > to tell > people about all the new plans and things that are coming. > > Finally > I repeat my request, and will remind all who get this email, that > we have a > protocol now within the whole operation of SCN. If any team wants > something, they should propose it, via the coordinator, to ExComm > and me. > In some cases this might be a simple great - go do it. Yet it > might also > have impacts that you are unaware of. Thus others should and will > get a say > in the impact of the request. > > So we now have asked that all teams propose a function and a > rational. It > is clear that existing software might be suitable, on the face of > it, but > there might be other options. So it is no longer acceptable to > simply > request that a software package be installed. We need to be more > open > minded, welcome discussion and even accept that your choice might > not be the > ideal. > > Thanks you all for all your hard work. Please remember, that SCN > is a > volunteer run organization. This means that I cannot make any > volunteer do > anything. I have a make a request and hope they see the value of > what they > do and will do it with good grace and timeliness. If you simply > see the > surface as being static that does not mean that below volunteers > are not > working their butts off to improve something. > > Thanks > Steve > -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- > Steve Guest (425) 653 > 7353 > Vice-President & ED of Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Supporting People and Communities with Free Internet Services" > ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at groupworks.org Tue Oct 23 20:55:37 2001 From: steve at groupworks.org (Steve Guest) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:55:37 -0700 Subject: SCN: Re: discus in action References: <20011024032454.70045.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ac01c15c3f$bf8f0200$97a6e13f@dellxpsr350> Patrick I am sorry that you feel like this. Can you please explain to me what you feel is so disagreeable? My aim, using the poor medium of email, was to smooth the way forward for you and not to upset you. I appear to have failed completely. Your contribution, so far, as been unbelievably positive and important. The position of WebMaster is a focal point within SCN and your recent effort has brought new life into the site. To try and assist you, my aim has been to provide the Web Team with a solid software foundation to build off. I am actually very happy with the WebMaster SCN has. Are you willing to talk about this? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "patrick" To: "Steve Guest" ; "Randy Groves" Cc: ; "alan miller" ; "Ti Locke" ; "Rod Clark" ; "Robert Armstrong" Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 8:24 PM Subject: Re: discus in action > Steve, > > I disagree with much of what you say. > > But you win. > > You can find another webmaster. > > I resign. > > Patrick > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Oct 23 21:49:16 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: discus in action In-Reply-To: <00ac01c15c3f$bf8f0200$97a6e13f@dellxpsr350> Message-ID: <20011024044916.97151.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Steve, You are a very good guy and I like you a lot and I enjoy shooting the breeze with you like we did at your place recently. However, the disagreement is on where we think we see SCN. And on the speed to get it to where it needs to be. I believe in process and was to meet with Martin tomorrow to discuss features on SCN, but we put it off. I'll leave that at that. I am certainly willing to talk. Patrick --- Steve Guest wrote: > Patrick > I am sorry that you feel like this. Can you please explain to me > what you > feel is so disagreeable? My aim, using the poor medium of email, > was to > smooth the way forward for you and not to upset you. I appear to > have > failed completely. > > Your contribution, so far, as been unbelievably positive and > important. The > position of WebMaster is a focal point within SCN and your recent > effort has > brought new life into the site. To try and assist you, my aim has > been to > provide the Web Team with a solid software foundation to build off. > > I am actually very happy with the WebMaster SCN has. Are you > willing to > talk about this? > > Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "patrick" > To: "Steve Guest" ; "Randy Groves" > > Cc: ; "alan miller" ; "Ti Locke" > ; "Rod Clark" ; "Robert Armstrong" > > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 8:24 PM > Subject: Re: discus in action > > > > Steve, > > > > I disagree with much of what you say. > > > > But you win. > > > > You can find another webmaster. > > > > I resign. > > > > Patrick > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Wed Oct 24 13:47:18 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:47:18 -0700 Subject: SCN: [Fwd: FC: House plans vote on anti-terrorism surveillance bill Wednesday] Message-ID: <3BD728D6.32214C77@blarg.net> This is what terrorism and our response to it is bringing us. Once these laws are in place, local authorities will find other uses for them than just going after terrorists. Today, right now, if you are uncomfortable with these greatly expanded secret police powers, you need to call your legislators and say so. Or at least email them. Don't bother to send them regular mail as they won't get it for days or weeks. -sharma -------- Original Message -------- Subject: FC: House plans vote on anti-terrorism surveillance bill Wednesday Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:33:20 -0700 From: Declan McCullagh Reply-To: declan at well.com To: politech at politechbot.com Summary: Expect a vote on Wednesday, with debate beginning soon after 10 am ET. The discussion on the House floor began Tuesday evening. The House is voting on a version of the USA Act approved by a House-Senate conference committee. The ACLU sent out a letter (below) Tuesday evening urging the House to reject the conference report. Don't hold your breath. One version of USA Act (sometimes called PATRIOT Act), not the latest: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:H.R.2975: Background: http://www.wartimeliberty.com/search.pl?topic=legislation -Declan *********** Press release: WASHINGTON, D.C. - House Judiciary Committee Chairman F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr. (R-Wis.) delivered the following statement during tonight's House debate on anti-terrorism legislation, H.R. 3162: "Mr. Speaker, today, we have the duty and the privilege to pass this historic legislation, the USA - PATRIOT Act of 2001, which was born of adversity and violent attack. This landmark legislation will provide law enforcement and intelligence agencies additional tools that are needed to address the threat of terrorism and to find and prosecute terrorist criminals. "This legislation authorizes the sharing of information between criminal investigators and those engaged in foreign intelligence gathering. It provides for enhanced wiretap and surveillance authority, and brings the basic building blocks of a criminal investigation (pen registers and trap and trace provisions) into the twenty-first century to deal with e-mails and Internet communications. "Mr. Speaker, this legislation is the result of bipartisan consultation and review. A version of this legislation was passed by the House Judiciary Committee, 36-0. The House then passed H.R. 2975 by a vote of 337-79. The House and Senate Judiciary Committees and the bipartisan leadership began a process last week to reconcile the differences between the House and Senate bills. This bill is the result of that process that was completed despite the closure of House and Senate offices due to the anthrax attack on the Capitol. "The changes to the bill are few but significant. First, the sunset provision in the House bill was modified to sunset in four years. Provisions of the original version expired after five years and the Senate did not have a sunset provision. Also, the Senate bill contained revisions to the so-called McDade law. This compromise version does not contain those changes and I agreed to review this subject in a different context. "This bill also contains comprehensive money laundering provisions that will be discussed by my colleagues from the Committee on Financial Services. The House bill did not contain such provisions although the House subsequently passed a separate bill. "Regarding the information sharing provisions, the Senate bill permitted law enforcement to share grand jury material with intelligence agencies without notice to the Court. The House bill permitted such sharing only after prior authorization to the Court. This bill allows sharing of grand jury material but the Department of Justice must give notice to the Court after the disclosure. "This legislation also contains a provision, found in neither the House or Senate version, that directs the Department of Justice to file an ex parte and in camera notice with the Court when the government installs on an Internet Service Provider a device pursuant to a lawful pen register or trap and trace order. This provision's author is the esteemed Majority Leader, the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Armey. "This legislation also contains a number of provisions, including 3 authored by Rep. Hyde and 1 by Rep. Keller, which were in the House Judiciary Committee version of the bill but were not in the version that passed on the floor. This bill also contains a number of provisions that have been worked out on both sides of the aisle in the Senate. "Regarding the bill's immigration provisions, this compromise legislation allows the Attorney General to delegate only to the Deputy Attorney General the ability to certify an alien as a terrorist. The House Judiciary Committee version of this legislation contained this provision but the Senate-passed bill did not and allowed such delegation to the Commissioner of the Immigration and Naturalization Service. In addition, the compromise requires the Attorney General to revisit every six months the detention of an alien who has been certified as an alien terrorist. The compromise also adds a provision authorizing the appropriation of over $36 million to implement as quickly as possible the Foreign Student Tracking System that was created in 1996. Finally, this legislation contains important humanitarian relief, originally contained in the House bill but not the Senate, for the families of immigrants killed in the terrorist attacks of September 11. "Mr. Speaker, this legislation is not perfect and the process is not one that all will embrace. However, these are difficult times that require steadfast leadership and an expeditious response. This legislation is desperately needed and the President has called on Congress to pass it now. I urge all Members to support this important anti-terrorism legislation and reserve the balance of my time." ##30## *********** From one person following the money laundering sections of the USA Act: >The House is going to vote tonight on the anti-terrorism substitute which >will include the anti-money laundering language (a concession to the >Senate). According to one source, the base text of the anti-money >laundering part will be the House floor passed version of HR 3004 (which had >been changed to conform more with the Senate version) with some >changes. These sections will be dropped from the bill: >*Making it a crime to make a false statement opening an account; >*Sec 403 and 404 are out, allowing the Mint to print foreign money to >foil counterfetiers; These sections will be added: >*Senate language facilitating information sharing between agencies >*Gramm language allowing a process for challenging asset forfeiture And >another addition that fudges some of the language: >*Treasury will have 180 days to issue monitoring regulations or the >more proscriptive Senate mandates take effect. *********** CURRENT HOUSE FLOOR PROCEEDINGS LEGISLATIVE DAY OF OCTOBER 23, 2001 107TH CONGRESS - FIRST SESSION 9:58 P.M. - On motion to adjourn Agreed to by voice vote. The House adjourned. The next meeting is scheduled for 10:00 a.m. on October 24, 2001. Mr. Larson (CT) moved that the House do now adjourn. 8:30 P.M. - SPECIAL ORDER SPEECHES - The House has concluded all anticipated legislative business and has proceeded to Special Order speeches. 8:27 P.M. - Pursuant to clause 8, rule XX, the Speaker postponed until Wednesday, October 24, 2001, the roll call vote on the motion to suspend the rules and pass H.R. 3162, which was ordered on Tuesday, October 23, 2001. H.R. 3162: to deter and punish terrorist acts in the United States and around the world, to enhance law enforcement investigatory tools, and for other purposes At the conclusion of debate, the Yeas and Nays were demanded and ordered. Pursuant to the provisions of clause 8, rule XX, the Chair announced that further proceedings on the motion would be postponed. 7:15 P.M. - DEBATE - By unanimous consent, the House proceeded with one hour of debate on the motion to suspend the rules and pass H.R. 3162. Considered under suspension of the rules. Mr. Sensenbrenner moved to suspend the rules and pass the bill. 7:14 P.M. - The Speaker announced that votes on suspensions, if ordered, will be postponed until October 24. Mr. Linder filed a report from the Committee on Rules on H. Res. 270. [...] *********** ACLU Urges House To Reject Conference Report; Decries Deeply Flawed Legislative Process FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Phil Gutis Tuesday, October 23, 2001 202-675-2312 WASHINGTON - Decrying a deeply flawed legislative process, the American Civil Liberties Union today urged the House of Representatives to reject the conference report on the anti-terrorism bill. "This legislation is based on the faulty assumption that safety must come at the expense of civil liberties," said Laura W. Murphy, Director of the ACLU Washington National Office. "We can be safe and fight terrorism without substantially surrendering our civil liberties." In a letter to the full House, which could consider the conference report as early as tonight, Murphy said the USA Act (HR 2975) would give enormous, unwarranted power to the executive branch unchecked by meaningful judicial review. Most of the new powers, the ACLU said, could be used against American citizens in counter-terrorism investigations and in routine criminal investigations completely unrelated to terrorism. "These new and unchecked powers could be used against American citizens who are not under criminal investigation, immigrants who are here within our borders legally, and also against those whose First Amendment activities are deemed to be threats to national security by the Attorney General," the ACLU's letter said. With House offices closed and staff unable to access their papers, Murphy said that the process that brought the conference report to the floor is deeply flawed and an offense to the thoughtful legislative process necessary to protect the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. "In past times of tragedy and fear, our government has harassed, investigated and arrested people solely because of their race, religion, national origin, speech or political beliefs," the ACLU said. "We must not allow that to happen again even as we work together to protect ourselves from future terrorist attacks." The ACLU letter to the House can be found at: http://www.aclu.org/congress/l102301a.html Melissa Schwartz *********** ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Wed Oct 24 13:53:41 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:53:41 -0700 Subject: SCN: [Fwd: FC: Peter Swire op-ed on anti-terrorism bill: Power may be abused] Message-ID: <3BD72A55.8F676C0C@blarg.net> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: FC: Peter Swire op-ed on anti-terrorism bill: Power may be abused Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 01:57:35 -0400 From: Declan McCullagh Reply-To: declan at well.com To: politech at politechbot.com ********* Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:05:39 -0500 To: declan at well.com From: Peter Swire Subject: Op Ed on Anti-terrorist law Declan: This op ed piece can be released to the public domain on Wednesday morning. It highlights some key concerns with the anti-terrorism law that the President will likely sign shortly. Peter If surveillance expands, safeguard civil liberties Peter P. Swire - For the Atlanta Journal-Constitution Sunday, October 21, 2001 The Uniting and Strengthening America Act of 2001, expected to be signed by President Bush this week, will give our government important new surveillance powers to fight terrorism. Unfortunately, the USA Act does not make sure that these expanded powers won't be abused. While it sharply expands how government can wiretap e-mails and Web surfing, it provides no remedy if officials exceed that authority. It also breaks down the wall that once separated foreign intelligence-gathering from domestic law enforcement, without creating new safeguards to replace those it removes. On the wiretap side, the act permits law enforcement to camp at a phone company or Internet service provider and monitor a wide range of communications as they flow through the network. The "computer trespasser" provision, as it's called, is intended to let phone companies and Internet providers bring police into their systems to look for unauthorized usage. The idea has a core of good sense. System owners should be able to ask for help from the police when they expect a hacker attack. The question is how well the new law has been written. The Bush administration proposed the "computer trespasser" language just four days after the attack on the World Trade Center. There was never a single hearing in Congress on the idea. Law enforcement abuses feared One worry with this new law is that a company might "invite" the police to stay based on undue pressure from law enforcement. Another worry is that the police might intentionally exceed their authority. Under the long-standing rule covering telephone wiretaps, law enforcement is forbidden from using wrongfully obtained evidence in court. But that rule does not apply to information illegally obtained by police from wiretaps of e-mail and Web surfing. Last year, the Clinton administration proposed that intercepted e-mails be treated the same as intercepted phone calls. As the House Judiciary Committee debated the wiretap proposal this month, it agreed that illegal e-mail wiretaps should not be used in court. It made sure that law enforcement would have to report on how often it was using the expanded powers. The House also created a $10,000 fine against the government for illegal Internet wiretaps. None of these desirable safeguards made it into the final USA Act. In a second big change, the USA Act integrates foreign intelligence-gathering and law enforcement in ways forbidden since the 1970s. Congress separated the two functions after discovering numerous abuses of the power, from clandestine spying here in the United States by the CIA to criminal prosecutions based on evidence obtained overseas by means that would be illegal under the Constitution. Security forces work together To stop those abuses, Congress enacted strict rules preventing the CIA and other intelligence agencies operating overseas from sharing information with domestic law-enforcement agencies. Those rules are outdated in the face of the current threat. In the recent words of one senior FBI official, "The walls are all down now." In the wake of Sept. 11, new integrated command centers house officials from the CIA, FBI, National Security Agency, Defense Intelligence Agency, Customs Service, and so on. The USA Act furthers this trend. It specifically provides that secret grand jury testimony, historically used only for law enforcement within the United States, can now be shared with intelligence agencies without getting permission from a judge, or even noting the fact that the information has been shared. Similarly, the act allows information gathered from secret wiretaps on foreign agents to go directly to law enforcement officials. Defendants no longer have to be informed that the wiretap occurred, as previous law required. From now on, it will be easier for the government to conduct "foreign intelligence" wiretaps and use information from those wiretaps without ever revealing their existence. Again, the logic for these changes is clear. Terrorists clearly operate both in the United States and overseas. Communications on the Internet constantly bounce between different countries. If we leave walls in place between the CIA and the FBI, we prevent our agencies from seeing dangerous patterns and taking needed action. In summary, there are strong reasons to support new surveillance powers. But we should stay keenly aware that we are repealing safeguards created because of previous abuse. The Framers adopted the Fourth Amendment to make sure that all government searches were reasonable and approved by an independent judge. When Congress revisits the wiretap rules soon, as it inevitably will, it must create new safeguards to match the new surveillance powers our government gained this week. Peter P. Swire is a visiting professor of law at George Washington University. During the Clinton administration, he chaired a White House Working Group on how to update wiretap laws for the Internet age. This article available at http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/epaper/editions/sunday/issue_b32dd46d81b5509a1081.html Previous Swire Brookings article on the wiretap laws available at http://www.brookings.edu/views/articles/fellows/2001_swire.htm :: "Administration Wiretap Proposal Hits the Right Issues But Goes Too Far", October 3, 2001. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Wed Oct 24 14:18:45 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:18:45 -0700 Subject: SCN: [Fwd: Bin Laden humor] Message-ID: <3BD73035.49D3A65B@blarg.net> This is really well done! -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Bin Laden humor Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:10:55 +0200 http://www.madblast.com/oska/humor_bin.swf * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 21:29:34 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: website In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011026042934.96536.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Branford, Your site has been listed on the homepage as a featured site of the week. (For anyone with a beef about the possible commerical nature of this site, it has been determined that it is more of a hobby site that has a great deal to offer to the area. VR pictures of the bus tunnels are slick.) Enjoy, Patrick M. Fisher Quasi-volunteer Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Control from Above" --- Bradford Bohonus wrote: > Hello Patrick, > > I've sent you a banner image to use on the page. > > Here is some copy for you- > > > VRSeattle.com > > See hundreds of Seattle and Washington state locations in panoramic > > virtual reality. VRSeattle uses photographic Quicktime VR images > that > let you spin around, look up and down as if you were standing right > > there. All Seattle attractions are viewable online including > Pioneer > Square, Pike Place Market, Seattle Center, Downtown Waterfront and > more! > > > Thanks! > > Bradford > > > >Branford, > > > >I wish I knew what was going on. It's been down since yesterday. I > >need to get on it and check some things on it. This is my free > >weekend to work on it! > > > >Heck, I just checked your site and I can't access it either! > > > >Patrick > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=seapic.jpg; x-mac-type=4A504547; x-mac-creator=4241424C __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 22:09:53 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN Principles Message-ID: <20011026050953.948.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, As you recently requested, I put SCN's principles up on the SCN homepage. (http://www.scn.org/commnet/principles.html) Your presentation on SCN in Kyoto has been mentioned as a featured site on the homepage as well. (http://www.scn.org/commnet/Presentations/kyoto-2001.html) Patrick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Fri Oct 26 05:46:57 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 05:46:57 -0700 Subject: SCN: [Fwd: FC: Anti-terrorism bill's "expiration date" may not mean much] Message-ID: <3BD95B41.C13C0C6@blarg.net> What I most feared has come to pass. We were forever changed by 9-11, now the terrorists have won in destroying democracy.... -------- Original Message -------- Subject: FC: Anti-terrorism bill's "expiration date" may not mean much Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:33:14 -0400 From: Declan McCullagh Reply-To: declan at well.com To: politech at politechbot.com Text of USA Act, which President Bush will sign today: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:h.r.03162: Background: http://www.wartimeliberty.com/search.pl?topic=legislation --- http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47901,00.html Terror Bill Has Lasting Effects By Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 2:00 a.m. Oct. 26, 2001 PDT WASHINGTON -- Legislators who sent a sweeping anti-terrorism bill to President Bush this week proudly say that the most controversial surveillance sections will expire in 2005. Senate Judiciary chairman Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont) said that a four-year expiration date "will be crucial in making sure that these new law enforcement powers are not abused." In the House, Bob Barr (R-Georgia) stressed that "we take very seriously the sunset provisions in this bill." But the Dec. 2005 expiration date embedded in the USA Act -- which the Senate approved 98 to 1 on Thursday -- applies only to a tiny part of the mammoth bill. After the president signs the measure on Friday, police will have the permanent ability to conduct Internet surveillance without a court order in some circumstances, secretly search homes and offices without notifying the owner, and share confidential grand jury information with the CIA. Also exempt from the expiration date are investigations underway by Dec. 2005, and any future investigations of crimes that took place before that date. [...] Other sections of the USA Act, which the House approved by a 357 to 66 vote on Wednesday, that do not expire include the following: * Police can sneak into someone's house or office, search the contents, and leave without ever telling the owner. This would be supervised by a court, and the notification of the surreptitious search "may be delayed" indefinitely. (Section 213) * Any U.S. attorney or state attorney general can order the installation of the FBI's Carnivore surveillance system and record addresses of Web pages visited and e-mail correspondents -- without going to a judge. Previously, there were stiffer legal restrictions on Carnivore and other Internet surveillance techniques. (Section 216) * Any American "with intent to defraud" who scans in an image of a foreign currency note or e-mails or transmits such an image will go to jail for up to 20 years. (Section 375) * An accused terrorist who is a foreign citizen and who cannot be deported can be held for an unspecified series of "periods of up to six months" with the attorney general's approval. (Section 412) * Biometric technology, such as fingerprint readers or iris scanners, will become part of an "integrated entry and exit data system" with the identities of visa holders who hope to enter the U.S. (Section 414) * Any Internet provider or telephone company must turn over customer information, including phone numbers called -- no court order required -- if the FBI claims the "records sought are relevant to an authorized investigation to protect against international terrorism." The company contacted may not "disclose to any person" that the FBI is doing an investigation. (Section 505) * Credit reporting firms like Equifax must disclose to the FBI any information that agents request in connection with a terrorist investigation -- without police needing to seek a court order first. Current law permits this only in espionage cases. (Section 505) * The current definition of terrorism is radically expanded to include biochemical attacks and computer hacking. Some current computer crimes -- such as hacking a U.S. government system or breaking into and damaging any Internet-connected computer -- are covered. (Section 808) * A new crime of "cyberterrorism" is added, which covers hacking attempts causing damage "aggregating at least $5,000 in value" in one year, any damage to medical equipment or "physical injury to any person." Prison terms range between five and 20 years. (Section 814) * New computer forensics labs will be created to inspect "seized or intercepted computer evidence relating to criminal activity (including cyberterrorism)" and to train federal agents. (Section 816) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Fri Oct 26 07:25:53 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:25:53 -0700 Subject: SCN: Privacy Message-ID: <3BD91001.23069.46D920E@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ===================== (Business Week, excerpts)---Polls taken since September 11 show that 86% of Americans are in favor of wider use of facial- recognition systems, 81% want closer monitoring of banking and credit-card transactions, and 68% support a national ID card. But the quest for safety is also going to come at an incalculable cost to personal privacy. The war on terrorism is still in its early days, but one thing is already clear: In the future, information about what you do, where you go, who you talk to, and how you spend your money is going to be far more available to government, and perhaps business as well. Across a wide range of battlefields, privacy is on the retreat. Many high-tech surveillance tools that were deemed too intrusive before September 11...are being unleashed. Pre-attack legislation aimed at protecting people from unwanted privacy invasions has been shelved, while Congress is on the verge of passing an anti-terrorism law giving cops broad new powers to wiretap, monitor Internet activity, and peer into personal bank accounts. The notion of forcing citizens to carry a national identity card - once anathema to America's open culture - is getting more serious consideration than ever in U.S. history. These developments could wind up having profound implications for our democracy. Privacy involves the most fundamental issue in governance: the relationship of the individual to the state. Since the forefathers, Americans have been committed to the idea that people have the right to control how much information about their thoughts, feelings, choices, and political beliefs is disclosed. It's a matter, first and foremost, of dignity - creating a boundary that protects people from the prying eyes of the outside world. That, in turn, helps to shield religious minorities, political fringe groups, and other outsiders from persecution by the majority. By reducing our commitment to privacy, we risk changing what it means to be Americans. To the extent that ID cards, databases, and surveillance cameras help the government track ordinary citizens, they may make people marginally less willing to exercise basic freedoms - to travel, to assemble, to speak their minds. "It's possible that through a tyranny of small decisions, we could make a nightmare society," says Harvard Law School Professor Laurence Tribe. Of course, we're still a long way from that point. Although many civil libertarians worry that the era of Big Brother is dawning, polls show that Americans are still committed to personal privacy and are unwilling to give law enforcers a blank check. But this is a rapidly evolving issue. We have already abandoned a number of old privacy taboos. If new attacks come and the U.S. is powerless to stop them, a mandate could develop for greater levels of surveillance. ...government officials have a long history of abusing their power to collect personal information. Remember J. Edgar Hoover and Richard Nixon? ...databases created for one purpose have a way of being reused in unintended ways. Files that Massachusetts accumulated about citizen health insurance claims, for example, had to be turned over to the tobacco industry when the state sued cigarette makers (though the state took steps to ensure that individuals' identities were masked). One of the most controversial issues on the privacy landscape is that of national ID cards. Many Americans are instinctively repulsed by the idea. Passion runs so strong on this issue that the government has repeatedly blocked efforts to use Social Security numbers for drivers' licenses, voter registration, and prison records. The fear is that the Social Security number would become the equivalent of a national ID card. More than 100 other countries, many of them democracies, disagree. They come in many varieties. Germany, after the human rights abuses of the Nazis, takes a minimal approach. Cards contain basic information, including name, place of birth, and eye color. Malaysia, on the other hand, this year launched a project to issue 2 million "multipurpose" cards in Kuala Lumpur. A computer chip allows the card to be used as a combination drivers' license, cash card, national health service card, and passport. That's only the beginning of what's theoretically possible. Given the power of digital technology, criminal records, immigration data, and more could be packed onto ID cards. In fact, they could contain so much data that they become the equivalent of portable personal files. The concern, of course, is that ID cards could lead the country down a slippery slope. Over the long run, say critics, they might be used as a platform for creating new databases. Starting with a card like, say, the one Malaysia just launched, governments could require the ID cards to be swiped into electronic readers every time people shopped, traveled, or surfed the Web and could accumulate an unprecedented quantity of information on their citizens. For now, though, the question of a national ID card appears to be off the agenda, though it's nowhere near dead. Even some longtime civil libertarians are reevaluating. On Sept. 10, "I was a knee-jerk opponent of ID cards," says Harvard University law professor Alan Dershowitz. "Now, I've had to rethink the whole thing." In recent years, scientists have made enormous advances in location-tracking tools. Surveillance cameras with facial- recognition software can pick out criminals in public places. Global positioning satellite (GPS) transponders in cars, boats - and one day, in handheld devices such as phones - send out signals identifying people's latitude and longitude to within 10 feet. Both of these technologies will flourish in an environment free of many of the privacy concerns that clouded their future before September 11. So far, facial-recognition systems are used primarily in highly controlled situations as authentication devices, to vouch for the identities of workers entering, say, a nuclear power plant. They are not often used, especially in the U.S., as a general surveillance device in public places. ...in the wake of the terror attacks, a security committee formed by Secretary of Transportation Norman Y. Mineta has recommended the aggressive rollout of facial-recognition systems in airports. But it's still unclear how useful they will be. They can still be tricked by people wearing fake beards. And they tend to generate too many false alarms. Unless these glitches get fixed, the devices may never be appropriate for high-traffic settings such as tunnels and bridges. GPS is a different story. The technology works - and it has been rapidly spreading to new places. Before September 11, privacy groups and some legislators had been working to limit the ability of companies to collect location data from customers surreptitiously and to raise the legal standards for enforcement officials to subpoena this material. Those battles, for the time being, are lost causes. If GPS information helps track down terrorists, it will be collected. Unlike facial surveillance, ID cards, or data-mining - which invade everybody's privacy - the government's new eavesdropping powers will primarily target known suspects. So they don't raise as many issues for the public at large. There's one major exception: Carnivore, a technology the FBI uses to monitor e-mails, instant messages, and digital phone calls. Carnivore generated widespread controversy before September 11 for being too powerful. When installed on a suspect's Internet service provider, it searched through not only the suspect's Web activities but also those of people who used the same ISP. After privacy advocates complained, the FBI scaled back its deployment. Now, the brakes are off. There are widespread reports that the government has hooked up Carnivore to ISPs with minimal oversight. The government will probably soon demand that ISPs and digital wireless providers design networks to make them easier to tap. Just a few months ago, the FBI wouldn't have dared to ask. Now, such a move would barely make the papers. Facial-recognition software. Data mining. National ID cards. Carnivore. For the near future, these technologies are going to be deployed as stand-alone systems, if at all. But we live in a digital age. All of these technologies are built on ones and zeros. So it is possible to blend them together...into one monster snooping technology. In fact, linking them together makes each one exponentially more effective. A national ID card, for example, could be used to launch a new unified database that would track everybody's daily activities. Information culled from Carnivore could be stored in the same place. This super database, in turn, could be linked to facial- recognition cameras so that an all-points bulletin could go out for a potential terrorist the second the data-mining program detected a suspicious pattern of conduct. Other, more futuristic new technologies could be added to the mix. Scientists will be able to make much more powerful surveillance devices if they're freed of the privacy concerns that have restrained them in recent years. Already, researchers are working on satellites that can read the unique color spectrums emitted by people's skin and cameras that can tell whether people are lying by how frequently they blink. Left unchecked, technologists could eventually create a nearly transparent society, says David J. Farber, a pioneering computer scientist who helped develop the Net. "All the technology is there," he says. "There is absolutely nothing to stop that scenario--except law." To be sure, nobody is proposing such systems. And they are a long, long way from technical feasibility. But they are within sight - and no more far-fetched than, say, eBay...was a generation ago. Indeed, unifying the various surveillance systems makes sense from a technological standpoint, and there's likely to be strong pressure, once the tools are in place, to try to make them work better. As the U.S. enters the next phase of the war on terror, it is useful to keep this Orwellian scenario in mind, if only as a warning beacon of some of the hazards ahead. It is also reassuring to know that privacy principles developed in the past still apply in this new world. Surveillance can be checked by laws that require regular audits, that call for citizens to be notified when they're investigated, and that give people the right to correct information collected about them. That's the best way of guaranteeing that, in our efforts to catch the next Khalid Al-Midhar, we don't wind up with Big Brother instead. Copyright 2000-2001, The McGraw-Hill Companies Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Fri Oct 26 15:18:15 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Democracy Tour Message-ID: <200110262218.PAA03132@scn.org> Hello, I wanted to mention a "Democracy Tour" that is now available on the web. Yes -- SCN is one of the sites... http://www.democraticmedia.org/issues/digitalcommons/dotcommonstour.html -- Doug * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Oct 26 16:03:12 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Democracy Tour In-Reply-To: <200110262218.PAA03132@scn.org> Message-ID: <20011026230312.90175.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, Yes, currently, SCN is not much more than a list of links. Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > Hello, > > I wanted to mention a "Democracy Tour" that is now > available on the web. Yes -- SCN is one of the sites... > > http://www.democraticmedia.org/issues/digitalcommons/dotcommonstour.html > > -- Doug > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Fri Oct 26 16:41:57 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Democracy Tour In-Reply-To: <20011026230312.90175.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure what the background or motivation is to your statement but to me SCN is a LOT more than a list of links. That seems like a very limited view of what SCN is. -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > Doug, > > Yes, currently, SCN is not much more than a list of links. > > Patrick > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I wanted to mention a "Democracy Tour" that is now > > available on the web. Yes -- SCN is one of the sites... > > > > > http://www.democraticmedia.org/issues/digitalcommons/dotcommonstour.html > > > > -- Doug > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Fri Oct 26 16:45:16 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: FW: The USA PATRIOT Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bad news for the country... -- Doug > -----Original Message----- > From: The Nation Magazine [mailto:emailnation at thenation.com] > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 1:15 PM > To: The Nation Magazine > Subject: The USA PATRIOT Act > > > Dear EmailNation Subscriber, > > President Bush signed a broad anti-terrorism bill into law at a White > House ceremony this morning, granting federal authorities unprecedented > surveillance and intelligence-gathering powers. > > In addition to permitting authorities to use more overseas intelligence > information, the measure allows for longer detentions of suspects who are > not US citizens, grants the FBI broad access to sensitive personal > records, makes the payment of membership dues to political organizations a > potentially deportable offense, expands wiretapping authority while > decreasing judicial supervision and creates a broad new definition of > "domestic terrorism" that could target people who engage in acts of > political protest and subject them to wiretapping and enhanced penalties. > > The bill, crafted in Attorney General John Ashcroft�s office in the wake > of last month's terrorist attacks, passed both houses of Congress > overwhelmingly Thursday. Rare are the moments in American history when a > Congress has surrendered so many cherished freedoms in a single trip to > the altar of immediate fear. > > As Laura Murphy, Director of the ACLU Washington National Office, told The > Nation: "This bill goes light years beyond what is necessary to combat > terrorism. Included in the bill are provisions that would allow for the > mistreatment of immigrants, the suppression of dissent and the > investigation and surveillance of wholly innocent Americans." > > For the full story read the latest installment of John Nichols's Online > Beat currently at: > > http://www.thenation.com/thebeat/ > > And don't miss these editorials, articles and columns from the new > November 12, 2001 issue of The Nation: > > JONATHAN SCHELL: The New Brink > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011112&s=schell > > ERIC ALTERMAN: 'Blowback,' the Prequel > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011112&s=alterman > > BRUCE SHAPIRO: Information Lockdown > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011112&s=shapiro > > IAN URBINA: US Bows to Turkey > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011112&s=urbina > > JOSHUA B. FREEMAN: Working-class Heros > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011112&s=freeman > > MICHAEL MASSING: Media Watch: Seven Days In October > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011112&s=massing > > WILLIAM GREIDER: Pro Patria, Pro Mundus > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011112&s=greider > > > SEPTEMBER 11 RESOURCES > > We've also created a special page on The Nation website, where we're > collecting all of our September 11 material, including articles, links, > activist info, resources on Islam and the Chomsky/Hitchens debate. So > check it out at: > > http://www.thenation.com/special/wtc/index.mhtml > > > WHAT IS PATRIOTISM? > > Ten years ago, The Nation published a special issue on patriotism (July > 15/22, 1991), which addressed just what patriotism is and ought to be. > Given the relevance of the question today, we've re-published selections > from that special issue: From Richard Cloward & Frances Fox Piven; Jesse > Jackson; Katrina vanden Heuvel; William Sloan Coffin; Martin Duberman; > Richard Falk; Howard Fast; Erwin Knoll; Mary McGrory and Natalie Merchant, > among others. > > All available currently at: > > http://www.thenation.com/doc/mhtml?i=archive&s=schaar_wtc_19910715 > > Finally, please remember that you can email any article on The Nation > website to friends, family and foes using the Email-To-A-Friend feature > found by clicking on the "email" link in the box adjoining each published > article. > > Best Regards, > Peter Rothberg, Associate Publisher > > P.S. If you like what you read on The Nation website and you're not > currently a subscriber to the magazine, please consider taking advantage > of our special EmailNation offer -- only $35.97 for 47 weekly issues. > You'll be able to read ALL of what appears in The Nation and you'll help > us continue to do the work we do. > > This special offer exclusively available at: > > https://ssl.thenation.com.usa.mhtml > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > You are currently subscribed to emailnation as: phil at uwtc.washington.edu > > You shouldn't be on this list if you didn't sign up. If you'd prefer not > to receive email from us, DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. Please let us know > by sending a blank email to the following address: > > leave-emailnation-4997906I at laser.sparklist.com > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > 911peace-owner at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe 911peace > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Fri Oct 26 16:51:09 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:51:09 -0700 Subject: SCN: Questions that need to be asked re 9-11 Message-ID: <3BD9F6ED.205DE683@blarg.net> My browser just crashed and I think this did not go out. If you get this twice, my apologies. I realize that some people are aggressively not interested in politics, so if that is you, just hit delete now. For all of you who would like more information and analysis re 9-11, this is a very interesting point of view and one which will never hit the mainstream press. The graphs on dieoff.org are chilling.... -sharma Forwarded-by: David Michael Message-ID: Patrick Fisher wrote: > ... currently, SCN is not much more than a list of links. Patrick, You seem to understimate how unusual and even rare a city guide like SCN's is in this world. Even now, seven and a half years after SCN started, it's still unusual to find a sizable site about a big city that values as much as SCN does the contributions of such a wide range of people who are trying to improve our society in some way. For years we have been gathering together before the eyes of the public as much as we can of the published work (or at least the Web sites) of the thousands of our neighbors who are working to improve civilization somehow. Some of them are succeeding, and others are at least holding back the effects of soulless entropy and uncaring. Do you really intend to dismiss this kind of gathering together as unimportant, and focus our main efforts on the Web equivalent of water cooler conversations and talk radio? Rod Clark webeditors at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Fri Oct 26 17:59:37 2001 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:59:37 -0700 Subject: SCN: Re: Privacy References: <3BD91001.23069.46D920E@localhost> Message-ID: <000a01c15eae$2dbf0b60$7152fea9@desktop> This points to a problem with the lack of a formal declaration of war as the basis for the current attacks on Afghanistan. If there were a declaration of war, certain restrictive measures could be implemented TEMPORARILY during the "war." However, by not declaring war, the restrictions have to be implemented by the regular legislative process. While there is a four-year renewal on some of the elements of the new restrictive legislation, some elements will endure. I personally doubt that this more enduring method of restricting our more open way of life was part of the reason that there was no declaration of war, but it is a troublesome side-effect of Congress failing to act responsibly. It is a good reason for citizens to oppose the war hysteria. ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve To: Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 7:25 AM Subject: SCN: Privacy > x-no-archive: yes > > ===================== > > > (Business Week, excerpts)---Polls taken since September 11 show > that 86% of Americans are in favor of wider use of facial- > recognition systems, 81% want closer monitoring of banking and > credit-card transactions, and 68% support a national ID card. > > But the quest for safety is also going to come at an incalculable > cost to personal privacy. > > The war on terrorism is still in its early days, but one thing is > already clear: In the future, information about what you do, where > you go, who you talk to, and how you spend your money is going > to be far more available to government, and perhaps business as > well. > > Across a wide range of battlefields, privacy is on the retreat. Many > high-tech surveillance tools that were deemed too intrusive before > September 11...are being unleashed. > > Pre-attack legislation aimed at protecting people from unwanted > privacy invasions has been shelved, while Congress is on the > verge of passing an anti-terrorism law giving cops broad new > powers to wiretap, monitor Internet activity, and peer into personal > bank accounts. > > The notion of forcing citizens to carry a national identity card - > once anathema to America's open culture - is getting more serious > consideration than ever in U.S. history. > > These developments could wind up having profound implications > for our democracy. Privacy involves the most fundamental issue in > governance: the relationship of the individual to the state. > > Since the forefathers, Americans have been committed to the idea > that people have the right to control how much information about > their thoughts, feelings, choices, and political beliefs is disclosed. > It's a matter, first and foremost, of dignity - creating a boundary that > protects people from the prying eyes of the outside world. That, in > turn, helps to shield religious minorities, political fringe groups, and > other outsiders from persecution by the majority. > > By reducing our commitment to privacy, we risk changing what it > means to be Americans. To the extent that ID cards, databases, > and surveillance cameras help the government track ordinary > citizens, they may make people marginally less willing to exercise > basic freedoms - to travel, to assemble, to speak their minds. "It's > possible that through a tyranny of small decisions, we could make > a nightmare society," says Harvard Law School Professor > Laurence Tribe. > > Of course, we're still a long way from that point. Although many > civil libertarians worry that the era of Big Brother is dawning, polls > show that Americans are still committed to personal privacy and > are unwilling to give law enforcers a blank check. > > But this is a rapidly evolving issue. We have already abandoned a > number of old privacy taboos. If new attacks come and the U.S. is > powerless to stop them, a mandate could develop for greater > levels of surveillance. > > ...government officials have a long history of abusing their power to > collect personal information. Remember J. Edgar Hoover and > Richard Nixon? > > ...databases created for one purpose have a way of being reused > in unintended ways. Files that Massachusetts accumulated about > citizen health insurance claims, for example, had to be turned over > to the tobacco industry when the state sued cigarette makers > (though the state took steps to ensure that individuals' identities > were masked). > > One of the most controversial issues on the privacy landscape is > that of national ID cards. Many Americans are instinctively > repulsed by the idea. Passion runs so strong on this issue that the > government has repeatedly blocked efforts to use Social Security > numbers for drivers' licenses, voter registration, and prison > records. The fear is that the Social Security number would > become the equivalent of a national ID card. > > More than 100 other countries, many of them democracies, > disagree. They come in many varieties. Germany, after the > human rights abuses of the Nazis, takes a minimal approach. > Cards contain basic information, including name, place of birth, > and eye color. > > Malaysia, on the other hand, this year launched a project to issue > 2 million "multipurpose" cards in Kuala Lumpur. A computer chip > allows the card to be used as a combination drivers' license, cash > card, national health service card, and passport. > > That's only the beginning of what's theoretically possible. Given > the power of digital technology, criminal records, immigration data, > and more could be packed onto ID cards. In fact, they could > contain so much data that they become the equivalent of portable > personal files. > > The concern, of course, is that ID cards could lead the country > down a slippery slope. Over the long run, say critics, they might > be used as a platform for creating new databases. Starting with a > card like, say, the one Malaysia just launched, governments could > require the ID cards to be swiped into electronic readers every time > people shopped, traveled, or surfed the Web and could > accumulate an unprecedented quantity of information on their > citizens. > > For now, though, the question of a national ID card appears to be > off the agenda, though it's nowhere near dead. Even some > longtime civil libertarians are reevaluating. On Sept. 10, "I was a > knee-jerk opponent of ID cards," says Harvard University law > professor Alan Dershowitz. "Now, I've had to rethink the whole > thing." > > In recent years, scientists have made enormous advances in > location-tracking tools. Surveillance cameras with facial- > recognition software can pick out criminals in public places. Global > positioning satellite (GPS) transponders in cars, boats - and one > day, in handheld devices such as phones - send out signals > identifying people's latitude and longitude to within 10 feet. Both of > these technologies will flourish in an environment free of many of > the privacy concerns that clouded their future before September > 11. > > So far, facial-recognition systems are used primarily in highly > controlled situations as authentication devices, to vouch for the > identities of workers entering, say, a nuclear power plant. They > are not often used, especially in the U.S., as a general surveillance > device in public places. > > ...in the wake of the terror attacks, a security committee formed by > Secretary of Transportation Norman Y. Mineta has recommended > the aggressive rollout of facial-recognition systems in airports. But > it's still unclear how useful they will be. They can still be tricked by > people wearing fake beards. And they tend to generate too many > false alarms. Unless these glitches get fixed, the devices may > never be appropriate for high-traffic settings such as tunnels and > bridges. > > GPS is a different story. The technology works - and it has been > rapidly spreading to new places. Before September 11, privacy > groups and some legislators had been working to limit the ability of > companies to collect location data from customers surreptitiously > and to raise the legal standards for enforcement officials to > subpoena this material. Those battles, for the time being, are lost > causes. If GPS information helps track down terrorists, it will be > collected. > > Unlike facial surveillance, ID cards, or data-mining - which invade > everybody's privacy - the government's new eavesdropping > powers will primarily target known suspects. So they don't raise as > many issues for the public at large. > > There's one major exception: Carnivore, a technology the FBI uses > to monitor e-mails, instant messages, and digital phone calls. > Carnivore generated widespread controversy before September 11 > for being too powerful. When installed on a suspect's Internet > service provider, it searched through not only the suspect's Web > activities but also those of people who used the same ISP. > > After privacy advocates complained, the FBI scaled back its > deployment. Now, the brakes are off. There are widespread > reports that the government has hooked up Carnivore to ISPs with > minimal oversight. The government will probably soon demand > that ISPs and digital wireless providers design networks to make > them easier to tap. Just a few months ago, the FBI wouldn't have > dared to ask. Now, such a move would barely make the papers. > > Facial-recognition software. Data mining. National ID cards. > Carnivore. For the near future, these technologies are going to be > deployed as stand-alone systems, if at all. But we live in a digital > age. All of these technologies are built on ones and zeros. So it is > possible to blend them together...into one monster snooping > technology. In fact, linking them together makes each one > exponentially more effective. > > A national ID card, for example, could be used to launch a new > unified database that would track everybody's daily activities. > Information culled from Carnivore could be stored in the same > place. This super database, in turn, could be linked to facial- > recognition cameras so that an all-points bulletin could go out for a > potential terrorist the second the data-mining program detected a > suspicious pattern of conduct. > > Other, more futuristic new technologies could be added to the mix. > Scientists will be able to make much more powerful surveillance > devices if they're freed of the privacy concerns that have > restrained them in recent years. Already, researchers are working > on satellites that can read the unique color spectrums emitted by > people's skin and cameras that can tell whether people are lying > by how frequently they blink. > > Left unchecked, technologists could eventually create a nearly > transparent society, says David J. Farber, a pioneering computer > scientist who helped develop the Net. "All the technology is there," > he says. "There is absolutely nothing to stop that scenario--except > law." > > To be sure, nobody is proposing such systems. And they are a > long, long way from technical feasibility. But they are within sight - > and no more far-fetched than, say, eBay...was a generation ago. > Indeed, unifying the various surveillance systems makes sense > from a technological standpoint, and there's likely to be strong > pressure, once the tools are in place, to try to make them work > better. > > As the U.S. enters the next phase of the war on terror, it is useful > to keep this Orwellian scenario in mind, if only as a warning > beacon of some of the hazards ahead. It is also reassuring to > know that privacy principles developed in the past still apply in this > new world. > > Surveillance can be checked by laws that require regular audits, > that call for citizens to be notified when they're investigated, and > that give people the right to correct information collected about > them. That's the best way of guaranteeing that, in our efforts to > catch the next Khalid Al-Midhar, we don't wind up with Big Brother > instead. > > > Copyright 2000-2001, The McGraw-Hill Companies Inc. > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Sat Oct 27 00:11:22 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 00:11:22 -0700 Subject: SCN: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Questions that need to be asked re 9-11]]] Message-ID: <3BDA5E1A.2B0E9F4D@blarg.net> For Seattle folks only... more politics -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Fwd: Questions that need to be asked re 9-11]] Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:19:30 -0700 From: "Mike McCormick" To: sharma at blarg.net, "911peace at scn.org" <911peace at scn.org> Hi All, If you liked Stan Goff's article (or even if you didn't), I will be airing an interview with the author about his article this coming Sunday morning at 7:00 am. on KEXP 90.3 FM Seattle. Mike McCormick KEXP 90.3 FM Seattle Public Affairs Coordinator * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From debc5 at gmx.net Sat Oct 27 03:14:16 2001 From: debc5 at gmx.net (debc5 at gmx.net) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 03:14:16 -0700 Subject: SCN: Do you like the net? 29648 Message-ID: <200110270645.IAA28911@Rechner-08.nordmail.de> Earn Extra Income! Looking for an opportunity to work part-time..full time or make a career changefrom the comfort of your own home? Interested in offering an innovative and worthwhile product? ...Are you motivated? ...Are you serious? ...Are you READY?!! We are! And we're ready to teach you! Do not hesitate! Click the link below! http://www.towerlake.com/users/mainstreet/index13.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 11:27:56 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Democracy Tour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011027182756.42704.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Rod and Doug, I am not dismissing SCN in any way, whatsoever. It is rare and unusual and very special. There is nothing like it in this area (I don't know about the rest of the world.) Thank god we have something other than Citysearch and SeattleInsider. However, as Melissa and others have stated, it has a lot of potential. I am not dismissing what it has. I am lamenting about what it doesn't have. Patrick Example of what would be cool: Would not SCN totally rock if it had secure FTP for individual users to create websites without ads? --- Rod Clark wrote: > Patrick Fisher wrote: > > ... currently, SCN is not much more than a list of links. > > Patrick, > > You seem to understimate how unusual and even rare a city > guide like SCN's is in this world. Even now, seven and a half > years after SCN started, it's still unusual to find a sizable > site about a big city that values as much as SCN does the > contributions of such a wide range of people who are trying to > improve our society in some way. For years we have been > gathering together before the eyes of the public as much as we > can of the published work (or at least the Web sites) of the > thousands of our neighbors who are working to improve > civilization somehow. Some of them are succeeding, and others > are at least holding back the effects of soulless entropy and > uncaring. Do you really intend to dismiss this kind of gathering > together as unimportant, and focus our main efforts on the Web > equivalent of water cooler conversations and talk radio? > > Rod Clark > webeditors at scn.org > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jw4 at scn.org Sat Oct 27 11:39:26 2001 From: jw4 at scn.org (Joel Ware IV) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Democracy Tour In-Reply-To: <20011027182756.42704.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patrick, THANKS for your vision -- I'm sure it will help us rebuild SCN. I am confused here -- don't we have ftp now, and free web sites for individuals? What piece are we missing here? Regards, -Joel. --- On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: ... > > I am not dismissing what it has. I am lamenting about what it doesn't > have. > > Patrick > > Example of what would be cool: Would not SCN totally rock if it had > secure FTP for individual users to create websites without ads? > Joel Ware, IV jw4 at scn.org Volunteer Coordinator Emeritus, Member of Governance, HR, Ops, Board * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Sat Oct 27 11:56:56 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Democracy Tour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I am confused here -- don't we have ftp now, and free web sites for > individuals? What piece are we missing here? Jos, You personally do have FTP for a personal site, as a by-product of being an Information Provider. But regular SCN users don't have FTP or any other kind of easy access to ulpoad files to their sites. The unusually difficult file upload process for regular users has kept us from being a popular host for personal sites. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 14:00:53 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Democracy Tour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011027210053.24815.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Joel, Individuals don't have ftp capabilities in the "normal" sense of the word. Because SCN doesn't have secure ftp, users can have websites, but they have to transfer via command line interface, either via telnet or using a dial-up program. Patrick There are a great many different ways a site can improve on, a great many different features. A CGI won't save a site and I never said it would. Nor will FTP alone. It is one of many different ways. --- Joel Ware IV wrote: > Patrick, > THANKS for your vision -- I'm sure it will help us rebuild SCN. > > I am confused here -- don't we have ftp now, and free web sites for > individuals? What piece are we missing here? > > Regards, > -Joel. > > --- > > On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > ... > > > > I am not dismissing what it has. I am lamenting about what it > doesn't > > have. > > > > Patrick > > > > Example of what would be cool: Would not SCN totally rock if it > had > > secure FTP for individual users to create websites without ads? > > > > Joel Ware, IV jw4 at scn.org > Volunteer Coordinator Emeritus, Member of Governance, HR, Ops, > Board > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 14:05:04 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WEB: SCN: Portal or Destination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011027210504.15971.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Rod, The point and intent of the message has been missed. People tend to be literal about what they read and see. They miss the point. Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > Patrick Fisher wrote: > > If we want to make it a portal, then why are we wasting so > > much time and energy? Any moron can get a Geocities page and > > put a ton of local links on it and write a piece here and > > there. > > Do we want to be morons? No, we are better than that. We want > > people to come to SCN for the community. We want SCN to come > > to SCN for SCN. > > Patrick, > > Maybe we're "morons," but before taking that conclusion too > much further, please have a look at the top 20 sites for the > keyword "Seattle," in Google. The people at, for example, > seattle.about.com aren't there. The people who built the Seattle > section of the huge Netscape Open Directory aren't there. The > people at Seattle Insider aren't there. The people at > hometeamcommunity.com aren't there. The people at > digitalcity.com's Seattle site aren't there. And SCN is. Why? > > Our audience isn't the typical "portal" audience, though I'd > guess it's probably one of the best audiences in the region. Not > necessarily in terms of disposable income or other usual > audience measures, but because it's composed so much of socially > responsible people who want to find where and how to connect > with other people to do something. Or to learn something about > the Seattle area that they can't find out from the big media > sites. Or just to find a local directory that doesn't filter out > nearly as many of the controversial or difficult or underclass > sites that many other city guides somehow just don't seem to > include. > > This isn't what "any moron" is doing with a Geocities page, > and it isn't what Seattle Insider or Digital City/Seattle or > other such portals and general purpose sites are doing. > > > If you are like me, you don't care too much about a site that > > has all the information going one way. That is why I want SCN > > to be the Yahoo of the Seattle community area. > > Yahoo has its strong points, but I think for our audience SCN > is probably better than Yahoo in those fields where we have > equivalent menu sections. A lot of what you contend are major > factors in Yahoo's success aren't at all what made it the most > popular site on the Internet. Instead, much of what you see as > their keys to overall success are in fact mere recent add-ons > that Yahoo tacked on after they had already achieved their > dominant position. What really made Yahoo so useful and popular > are the well constructed hand-built menus. That's also one of > the basic things that has made SCN as useful and popular as it > is. > > SCN itself can do more, but it will always be dwarfed by the > combined knowledge and efforts of all the people behind the > hundreds of other sites hosted on our servers and listed on our > menus, who are working on everything from A to Z. I don't even > want to keep people from stopping briefly at SCN's site and then > going on to places that are doing things that SCN itself can't > do. That in itself is a very valuable function of SCN, that I > think you undervalue greatly. > > The social inclusiveness, the quality of editorial selection, > and the lack of censorship in SCN's directory are rarely matched > anywhere. This are some of the reasons why you consistently see > SCN mentioned as one of the handful of best community networks, > and why Democratic Media named SCN one of the 100 best digital > democracy sites the other day. There are many core values about > SCN that shouldn't be "rebuilt" away in a drive to seek a > different or more Yahoo-like audience. > > Rod Clark > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 14:13:46 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WEB: SCN: Portal or Destination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011027211346.97689.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Rod, I apologize for offending anyone who has any amount of time invested with SCN. I could have used a better choice of words, I could have been a bit more sensitive and thoughtful to others. My intent was not to disparage SCN or it's volunteers. However, I am far from perfect and I erred in not using a better choice of words, not taking into consideration the views of others, or not approaching the the subject and my intent in a clear manner. Sometimes, what we write is clear to us, from our perspective, however it is sometimes easy to forget how others perceive a given topic. I hope that anyone who is upset will understand and I did not mean to be critical of SCN. Patrick \ --- Rod Clark wrote: > Patrick Fisher wrote: > > If we want to make it a portal, then why are we wasting so > > much time and energy? Any moron can get a Geocities page and > > put a ton of local links on it and write a piece here and > > there. > > Do we want to be morons? No, we are better than that. We want > > people to come to SCN for the community. We want SCN to come > > to SCN for SCN. > > Patrick, > > Maybe we're "morons," but before taking that conclusion too > much further, please have a look at the top 20 sites for the > keyword "Seattle," in Google. The people at, for example, > seattle.about.com aren't there. The people who built the Seattle > section of the huge Netscape Open Directory aren't there. The > people at Seattle Insider aren't there. The people at > hometeamcommunity.com aren't there. The people at > digitalcity.com's Seattle site aren't there. And SCN is. Why? > > Our audience isn't the typical "portal" audience, though I'd > guess it's probably one of the best audiences in the region. Not > necessarily in terms of disposable income or other usual > audience measures, but because it's composed so much of socially > responsible people who want to find where and how to connect > with other people to do something. Or to learn something about > the Seattle area that they can't find out from the big media > sites. Or just to find a local directory that doesn't filter out > nearly as many of the controversial or difficult or underclass > sites that many other city guides somehow just don't seem to > include. > > This isn't what "any moron" is doing with a Geocities page, > and it isn't what Seattle Insider or Digital City/Seattle or > other such portals and general purpose sites are doing. > > > If you are like me, you don't care too much about a site that > > has all the information going one way. That is why I want SCN > > to be the Yahoo of the Seattle community area. > > Yahoo has its strong points, but I think for our audience SCN > is probably better than Yahoo in those fields where we have > equivalent menu sections. A lot of what you contend are major > factors in Yahoo's success aren't at all what made it the most > popular site on the Internet. Instead, much of what you see as > their keys to overall success are in fact mere recent add-ons > that Yahoo tacked on after they had already achieved their > dominant position. What really made Yahoo so useful and popular > are the well constructed hand-built menus. That's also one of > the basic things that has made SCN as useful and popular as it > is. > > SCN itself can do more, but it will always be dwarfed by the > combined knowledge and efforts of all the people behind the > hundreds of other sites hosted on our servers and listed on our > menus, who are working on everything from A to Z. I don't even > want to keep people from stopping briefly at SCN's site and then > going on to places that are doing things that SCN itself can't > do. That in itself is a very valuable function of SCN, that I > think you undervalue greatly. > > The social inclusiveness, the quality of editorial selection, > and the lack of censorship in SCN's directory are rarely matched > anywhere. This are some of the reasons why you consistently see > SCN mentioned as one of the handful of best community networks, > and why Democratic Media named SCN one of the 100 best digital > democracy sites the other day. There are many core values about > SCN that shouldn't be "rebuilt" away in a drive to seek a > different or more Yahoo-like audience. > > Rod Clark > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 14:28:26 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: A Different Approach In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011027212826.29180.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> I will try to be as succinct as possible, while trying to get my point across as complete as I can. Recently, some frustrations concerning SCN have built up for a number of reasons. I won't go into them. Suffice to say, I've stepped back, evaluated the situation, and have decided to refocus on doing what I can do to make SCN a great place. I have been working pretty hard to find people to write for SCN. It takes a great deal of work to get someone to volunteer for a virtual organization. It's easy for people to forget, and it requires just the right amount of "pressure" to prod people to get into the groove of taking a few hours a month and producing some writing, or doing any kind of volunteer work. So, in closing, it goes like this: Rather than talking about what "can" be done, it's time to do what can be done. Again, I apologize if I have offended anyone, or for not being more clear when I could have been more clear. Patrick P.S. I'm not on some of the lists that are invite only, like webmaster at scn.org, so I don' t know what is going on in that arena. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 14:41:10 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: FW: The USA PATRIOT Act In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011027214110.18543.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, Thank you for posting the message. It's a scary thing: Every time "something" happens in this country, any kind of incident, it seems there is a tendency to make a new law to stop the "bad." I am not against legislation. It is just that: Remember Slade Gorton running that ad with those seniors walking around, all up in arms and angry? The woman looks at the camera and says, "We need a law!" America is maturing and more and more laws get written. Many good, but many just a knee-jerk reaction of the public and politicians. Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > Bad news for the country... > > -- Doug > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: The Nation Magazine [mailto:emailnation at thenation.com] > > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 1:15 PM > > To: The Nation Magazine > > Subject: The USA PATRIOT Act > > > > > > Dear EmailNation Subscriber, > > > > President Bush signed a broad anti-terrorism bill into law at a > White > > House ceremony this morning, granting federal authorities > unprecedented > > surveillance and intelligence-gathering powers. > > > > In addition to permitting authorities to use more overseas > intelligence > > information, the measure allows for longer detentions of suspects > who are > > not US citizens, grants the FBI broad access to sensitive > personal > > records, makes the payment of membership dues to political > organizations a > > potentially deportable offense, expands wiretapping authority > while > > decreasing judicial supervision and creates a broad new > definition of > > "domestic terrorism" that could target people who engage in acts > of > > political protest and subject them to wiretapping and enhanced > penalties. > > > > The bill, crafted in Attorney General John Ashcroft�s office in > the wake > > of last month's terrorist attacks, passed both houses of Congress > > overwhelmingly Thursday. Rare are the moments in American history > when a > > Congress has surrendered so many cherished freedoms in a single > trip to > > the altar of immediate fear. > > > > As Laura Murphy, Director of the ACLU Washington National Office, > told The > > Nation: "This bill goes light years beyond what is necessary to > combat > > terrorism. Included in the bill are provisions that would allow > for the > > mistreatment of immigrants, the suppression of dissent and the > > investigation and surveillance of wholly innocent Americans." > > > > For the full story read the latest installment of John Nichols's > Online > > Beat currently at: > > > > http://www.thenation.com/thebeat/ > > > > And don't miss these editorials, articles and columns from the > new > > November 12, 2001 issue of The Nation: > > > > JONATHAN SCHELL: The New Brink > > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011112&s=schell > > > > ERIC ALTERMAN: 'Blowback,' the Prequel > > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011112&s=alterman > > > > BRUCE SHAPIRO: Information Lockdown > > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011112&s=shapiro > > > > IAN URBINA: US Bows to Turkey > > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011112&s=urbina > > > > JOSHUA B. FREEMAN: Working-class Heros > > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011112&s=freeman > > > > MICHAEL MASSING: Media Watch: Seven Days In October > > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011112&s=massing > > > > WILLIAM GREIDER: Pro Patria, Pro Mundus > > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011112&s=greider > > > > > > SEPTEMBER 11 RESOURCES > > > > We've also created a special page on The Nation website, where > we're > > collecting all of our September 11 material, including articles, > links, > > activist info, resources on Islam and the Chomsky/Hitchens > debate. So > > check it out at: > > > > http://www.thenation.com/special/wtc/index.mhtml > > > > > > WHAT IS PATRIOTISM? > > > > Ten years ago, The Nation published a special issue on patriotism > (July > > 15/22, 1991), which addressed just what patriotism is and ought > to be. > > Given the relevance of the question today, we've re-published > selections > > from that special issue: From Richard Cloward & Frances Fox > Piven; Jesse > > Jackson; Katrina vanden Heuvel; William Sloan Coffin; Martin > Duberman; > > Richard Falk; Howard Fast; Erwin Knoll; Mary McGrory and Natalie > Merchant, > > among others. > > > > All available currently at: > > > > > http://www.thenation.com/doc/mhtml?i=archive&s=schaar_wtc_19910715 > > > > Finally, please remember that you can email any article on The > Nation > > website to friends, family and foes using the Email-To-A-Friend > feature > > found by clicking on the "email" link in the box adjoining each > published > > article. > > > > Best Regards, > > Peter Rothberg, Associate Publisher > > > > P.S. If you like what you read on The Nation website and you're > not > > currently a subscriber to the magazine, please consider taking > advantage > > of our special EmailNation offer -- only $35.97 for 47 weekly > issues. > > You'll be able to read ALL of what appears in The Nation and > you'll help > > us continue to do the work we do. > > > > This special offer exclusively available at: > > > > https://ssl.thenation.com.usa.mhtml > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > You are currently subscribed to emailnation as: > phil at uwtc.washington.edu > > > > You shouldn't be on this list if you didn't sign up. If you'd > prefer not > > to receive email from us, DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. Please > let us know > > by sending a blank email to the following address: > > > > leave-emailnation-4997906I at laser.sparklist.com > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > 911peace-owner at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe 911peace > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Sat Oct 27 20:01:03 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Democracy Tour In-Reply-To: <20011027210053.24815.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patrick Fisher wrote: > Individuals don't have ftp capabilities in the "normal" sense > of the word. Patrick, Or in any sense of the word. > Because SCN doesn't have secure ftp, users can have websites, but > they have to transfer via command line interface, either via telnet > or using a dial-up program. And then they have to laboriously transfer each file from its work directory holding-pen to the work directory's public_html subdirectory using the fairly unintuitive and clunky Freeport text menus, once they find the right menu items to use. SCN could probably attract many thousands of active personal sites if it could offer a Web hosting service with particularly good ways to access, upload and update people's personal sites. FTP is a good way to do that. There might be others. Any ideas, other than FTP? This would be a great project for SCN. It would attract lots of users, a lot of so-so content and some amount of good content, and very likely among the throngs of personal site users some worthwile number of people who might be willing to volunteer or otherwise help SCN. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 20:47:27 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Democracy Tour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011028034727.75612.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> > > SCN could probably attract many thousands of active personal > sites if it could offer a Web hosting service with particularly > good ways to access, upload and update people's personal sites. > FTP is a good way to do that. There might be others. Any ideas, > other than FTP? > Rod, Could you clarify this question just above? Do you mean other ideas for attracting users to SCN? If that is the case, JJ was speaking of users having access to a host of CGI's that SCN would already have set up. This is a great idea for any ISP or organization that provides hosting for individuals. And judging from the way Yahoo has been acting lately, I would not be surprised if Yahoo began to charge for any kind of hosting on it's geocities site. SCN would be miles ahead of any site if it offered personal hosting that was easy to transfer files to. Patrick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Sat Oct 27 20:55:20 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WEB: SCN: Portal or Destination In-Reply-To: <20011027210504.15971.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > The point and intent of the message has been missed. People > tend to be literal about what they read and see. They miss the > point. Patrick, Literal or not, missed or not, pointed or not, here's who Google says you have to compete with for people's good opinion of your efforts as a site about Seattle. What do you think we could do better than these sites, among the core things that draws people to them and that they do particularly well? There's a lot to consider here about what we should and shouldn't do. Searched the web for Seattle. Results 1 - 10 of about 5,360,000. The Seattle Times Home Page City of Seattle's Official Web Site Seattle Post-Intelligencer SeattleWeekly.com seattle.sidewalk.com University of Washington Home Page The Official Site of the Seattle Mariners Seattle Indymedia Seattle Aquarium Seattle Art Museum Searched the web for Seattle. Results 11 - 20 of about 5,360,000. Welcome to Seattle University The Official Site of the Seattle Seahawks seattle.yahoo.com Seattle, the Emerald City [seattle.net] Seattle Pacific University Seattle Public Library Home Page Port of Seattle, Seatac Airport, Seaport Seattle Music, Dining, Arts, Movies [www.seattle.com] Weather Underground: Seattle, Washington Forecast Seattle Community Network Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 21:08:46 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WEB: SCN: Portal or Destination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011028040846.94965.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Rod, Thanks for posting that list. I hadn't considered SCN's placement among others. Google searches and ranks by sites linked to those specified sites. The more links that other sites to your sites is what determines your placement. A few of these sites we simply can't compete with because they are very specific and would beat us each time. The UW, Seattle Mariners, topic specific sites. Seems like SCN does very well among general Seattle-related information sites. And the other ones have had deep pockets and some are publications. If the goal is to hit toward the top of the Google hit list, then the way, I suppose, is to have others linked to us. I suppose we have to come up with a number of strategies. I've had a few. I have been working with a woman who wants to be the editor for Seazine. She has experience as an editor. We've met a couple of times and have been in contact with each other via email over the last month. There is the site redesign and logo work. That is moving along. Also, I've been sending tickles to friends to write. It seems to take a lot of time fishing to catch a fish. There are other things I have been working on and I will be posting those to the site very shortly. Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > > The point and intent of the message has been missed. People > > tend to be literal about what they read and see. They miss the > > point. > > Patrick, > > Literal or not, missed or not, pointed or not, here's who > Google says you have to compete with for people's good opinion > of your efforts as a site about Seattle. What do you think we > could do better than these sites, among the core things that > draws people to them and that they do particularly well? There's > a lot to consider here about what we should and shouldn't do. > > Searched the web for Seattle. Results 1 - 10 of about 5,360,000. > > The Seattle Times Home Page > City of Seattle's Official Web Site > Seattle Post-Intelligencer > SeattleWeekly.com > seattle.sidewalk.com > University of Washington Home Page > The Official Site of the Seattle Mariners > Seattle Indymedia > Seattle Aquarium > Seattle Art Museum > > Searched the web for Seattle. Results 11 - 20 of about 5,360,000. > > Welcome to Seattle University > The Official Site of the Seattle Seahawks > seattle.yahoo.com > Seattle, the Emerald City [seattle.net] > Seattle Pacific University > Seattle Public Library Home Page > Port of Seattle, Seatac Airport, Seaport > Seattle Music, Dining, Arts, Movies [www.seattle.com] > Weather Underground: Seattle, Washington Forecast > Seattle Community Network > > Rod Clark > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 21:15:14 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 911 Voices Re: WEB: SCN: Portal or Destination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011028041514.87223.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Rod, My daughter wrote this wonderful poem about the 9/11 incident. It inspired me to simply go ahead and create a section called 911 Voices and put her poem up there. Then had a request for others to send in their submissions. I didn't receive any submissions. But that is okay. It's was a shot. It was nice to try something out and that page will be put into an SCN original content page. Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > > The point and intent of the message has been missed. People > > tend to be literal about what they read and see. They miss the > > point. > > Patrick, > > Literal or not, missed or not, pointed or not, here's who > Google says you have to compete with for people's good opinion > of your efforts as a site about Seattle. What do you think we > could do better than these sites, among the core things that > draws people to them and that they do particularly well? There's > a lot to consider here about what we should and shouldn't do. > > Searched the web for Seattle. Results 1 - 10 of about 5,360,000. > > The Seattle Times Home Page > City of Seattle's Official Web Site > Seattle Post-Intelligencer > SeattleWeekly.com > seattle.sidewalk.com > University of Washington Home Page > The Official Site of the Seattle Mariners > Seattle Indymedia > Seattle Aquarium > Seattle Art Museum > > Searched the web for Seattle. Results 11 - 20 of about 5,360,000. > > Welcome to Seattle University > The Official Site of the Seattle Seahawks > seattle.yahoo.com > Seattle, the Emerald City [seattle.net] > Seattle Pacific University > Seattle Public Library Home Page > Port of Seattle, Seatac Airport, Seaport > Seattle Music, Dining, Arts, Movies [www.seattle.com] > Weather Underground: Seattle, Washington Forecast > Seattle Community Network > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Sat Oct 27 23:10:08 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 23:10:08 -0700 Subject: SCN: Stan Goff interview/daylight saving time and other... Message-ID: <3BDBA140.9158672F@blarg.net> Here are some other very interesting links re current events. Don't forget that the interview with Stan Goff will be at 7AM on KEXP 90.3FM Sunday morning Seattle (hard to believe I will manage to tape it but I will try). And don't forget to turn your clocks back! Here is a link to the article he wrote on the US and middle east oil interests... http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/10/17/18410.html Other articles of interest... Subject: Pravda.RU Chris Deliso: The Afghan Quagmire Beckons or How Not to Intervene in Afghanistan http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/10/17/18281.html Subject: Pravda.RU Our reader Michael Hess: International criminal trade in drugs http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/10/27/19382.html Lots of articles not from the mainstream on what is happening. http://www.thenation.com/ Many of you may not realize that last week England changed the status of marijuana to a class three drug, which is in the same category as anabolic steroids, and annouced they were not going to arrest pot smokers anymore as they had serious drugs to deal with. Try to imagine that happening here, and the several hundred thousand people being released from jail, and the police being able to do things like catch car thieves and hit and run drivers for example, rather than chase potheads. I don't think we have any thing to worry about tho. There appear to be plans in the works to use our present crisis as a way to eliminate all crime, because when they can tap every phone, eavesdrop on every email (HI!), break into every house and search it secretly or openly, and so on....they are going to need to build even more prisons! Cheers, -sharma * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Sun Oct 28 09:49:29 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:49:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Democracy Tour In-Reply-To: <20011028034727.75612.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patrick, What I meant was making it usable, practical and easy. At present, in addition to all the stuff I mentioned before, the system automatically prevents people fromn uploading updated files, which is something that people generally want to do fairly regularly for their Web sites. The system blocks any upload with the same filename as an existing file in the work directory. This is a completely insane user-hostile feature for personal Web site use. I don't think the system even gives people any clue as to why their uploads fail when the system blocks them this way. When people copy their files to public_html, then they have to first realize why their uploads are failing, which isn't the most obvious thing in the world, and then they have to use the clunky menus to individually find and delete the files they uploaded last time, and then upload the new files, and then use the menu system to copy or move them to public_html, but - oops! - not the copy command because it causes headaches like this. If they forget that and leave one or more same-named files there, or if they don't have time to mess with all this at the time, then they'd have to remember to check beforehand next time that all previous uploaded filenames have been deleted in the work direcory before trying to upload any updated files. If they somehow forget that step and can't figure out why their uploads dont work, mahy of them will just give up and go to Geocities. We are simply driving people into the arms of Geocities and other sites, instead of SCN. This is the kind of reason why we don't have very many personal site users. It's not because they don't want to have sites here, all things being equal. People do. But word of mouth about the comparative lack of usability of our system for personal Web sites keeps them away. Rod Clark > > SCN could probably attract many thousands of active personal > > sites if it could offer a Web hosting service with particularly > > good ways to access, upload and update people's personal sites. > > FTP is a good way to do that. There might be others. Any ideas, > > other than FTP? > > > Rod, > > Could you clarify this question just above? Do you mean other ideas > for attracting users to SCN? ... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 08:40:37 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:40:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN site redesign Message-ID: <20011029164037.27071.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> I'm working on the SCN site redesign. I will have a draft of the new site done this weekend. I use the word "draft" very loosely here. As if draft is not loose enough in itself. The design will not be fancy and flashy. Your basic meat-and-potatoes site. But it will be visually appealing. The key is: Organization, well-placed information, visually-appealing, and easy on the eyes. I think we will have to implement CCS for at least the different computer platforms: Mac and PC. Anyone good at this? I can do CCS, and I will refer to my O'Reilly HTML book. Patrick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Mon Oct 29 15:42:37 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:42:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Possible Roles for SCN -- and what we can do about it... Message-ID: <200110292342.PAA22824@scn.org> Possible Roles for SCN -- and what we can do about it... SCNites, I've compiled a quick note which I think (HOPE!) may help us now and in the future. The first part of the note is a brief list of all of the possible roles for SCN I could think of this morning over my second cup of coffee. After this list I make a simple suggestion that I think could (help) guide further development on SCN. I'd love to know what you think. ------------------ possible roles for SCN -- (PS. there are many others -- let me know what they are and I'll add them) Assume a place at the table for developing city / regional / state (and other?) ICT initiatives and policy. (ICT = "information and communication technology) Provide low / no cost ICT services (email, listservs, web pages, etc.) Provide useful civic and community content on our web site (and other places?) Provide portal to Seattle community / civic information, applications and services Agitate for socially responsible ICT policy locally, regionally, and beyond Perform training and other pubic education Help define and develop future community / civic information, applications and services Work with community / civic groups to develop relevant ICT applications and services Take part in regional, national, and international coalitions to advance community / civic ICT goals. ------------------------------------------------ If we asked everybody in SCN to prioritize these possible roles I'm assuming that we'd have some champions for each and every one of these roles. So which of these roles should we as SCN volunteers address? ALL OF THEM. But, people will say, we don't have the resources to do ALL OF THEM. That's right! We don't have the resources AT THE MOMENT to do all of them. So, at this point in time let's not do ALL of them. In fact, at any given point in time, let's just focus on the ones in which we have volunteers who are willing to do the work. We have to realize that ALL of these issues are important and that they together form a coherent body of work that SCN stands for. We have, in fact, worked on all of them, at one time or another. I'm not against setting priorities. We have to do that! But that shouldn't be used as an excuse to rule out a relevant piece of work. Let's do the limited amount of work that we can do. The way I see it, however, there is no reason to ban certain activities. The situation is dynamic -- we need to be dynamic as well! Thanks! -- Doug * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 16:10:56 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:10:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Possible Roles for SCN -- and what we can do about it... In-Reply-To: <200110292342.PAA22824@scn.org> Message-ID: <20011030001056.3685.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, This is all wonderful stuff. Are you sure you had only two cups of coffee when you thought this up? Seriously, big were the cups? I'm working on general content for SCN. It will grow and change, it's naturally part of the process. I will keep this list in mind (I printed it out) as I develop content for SCN. Many of these items can be done at one time by different people. I wish SCN had secure FTP so that individuals could create personal web sites on SCN with ease. This would fall under services. Email is there, IMP is coming along. Majorcool would be nice if people could easily create their own lists. Links to "ICT initiatives and policy" is a big deal. We can create a section for that on SCN. Please provide some input on this section, if you could. I would, but I'm maxed out on what I can do at the moment. Training is there with SCN conducting email and internet classes. I wish I had more time to write, but I will have to wait. Again, wonderful food for thought. I'm still working on getting people to write regular columns on SCN. Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > Possible Roles for SCN -- and what we can do about it... > > SCNites, > > I've compiled a quick note which I think (HOPE!) may help us now > and in > the future. > > The first part of the note is a brief list of all of the possible > roles > for SCN I could think of this morning over my second cup of coffee. > > After this list I make a simple suggestion that I think could > (help) > guide further development on SCN. I'd love to know what you think. > > > ------------------ possible roles for SCN -- > (PS. there are many others -- let me know what they are and I'll > add them) > > Assume a place at the table for developing city / regional / state > (and > other?) ICT initiatives and policy. (ICT = "information and > communication technology) > > Provide low / no cost ICT services (email, listservs, web pages, > etc.) > > Provide useful civic and community content on our web site (and > other > places?) > > Provide portal to Seattle community / civic information, > applications > and services > > Agitate for socially responsible ICT policy locally, regionally, > and > beyond > > Perform training and other pubic education > > Help define and develop future community / civic information, > applications and services > > Work with community / civic groups to develop relevant ICT > applications > and services > > Take part in regional, national, and international coalitions to > advance community / civic ICT goals. > > ------------------------------------------------ > > > If we asked everybody in SCN to prioritize these possible roles > I'm assuming that we'd have some champions for each and every one > of > these roles. > > So which of these roles should we as SCN volunteers address? > > ALL OF THEM. > > But, people will say, we don't have the resources to do ALL OF > THEM. > That's right! We don't have the resources AT THE MOMENT to do all > of > them. So, at this point in time let's not do ALL of them. In > fact, at > any given point in time, let's just focus on the ones in which we > have > volunteers who are willing to do the work. > > We have to realize that ALL of these issues are important and that > they > together form a coherent body of work that SCN stands for. > > We have, in fact, worked on all of them, at one time or another. > > I'm not against setting priorities. We have to do that! But that > shouldn't be used as an excuse to rule out a relevant piece of > work. > > Let's do the limited amount of work that we can do. The way I see > it, > however, there is no reason to ban certain activities. The > situation > is dynamic -- we need to be dynamic as well! > > Thanks! > > -- Doug > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 16:29:16 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:29:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN site redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011030002916.5700.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Lois, Thank you very much for your feedback. Browser differences is going to be a big pain-in-the-be-hind. Making each browswer happy is going to have to wait for stage 2 of design, I think. I was/am pretty frustrated at the "speed" at which things get decided around here (SCN). Also, most of the feedback I get is: No, No, No, No, We can't do that, We can't do this. SCN deserves better. After having been bitten by the 'bug', and feeling that SCN can be better, and will be better, I'm back in the groove again. It wasn't a conscious decision: It just happened. It's what I like to do. I will disregard the negatives, the things that get under my skin, and work on what I can do to make SCN a great place. Like someone once told me: "Remain positive and keep your eye on the eight-ball." Patrick --- Lois wrote: > Patrick, > Sounds like you are staying around after all. > > >The key is: Organization, well-placed information, > visually-appealing, and easy on the eyes. > > And fast loading and lynx compatible. > > >I think we will have to implement CCS for at least the different > computer platforms: Mac and PC. Anyone good at this? I can do CCS, > and I will refer to my O'Reilly HTML book. > > I am not your expert though I did do a couple of intro classes a > couple of years ago. In my recollection the browser type was more > of a problem than the platform. NS in particular rendered a few > things strangely. They have upgraded but the NS and IE both for > Macs is far behind that for windows. And some things are not > working for XP - tis my understanding at least, no personal > experience with XP and none planned. > > Lois > --- > Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity. > > > > Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. > http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 16:36:21 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:36:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Possible Roles for SCN -- and what we can do about it... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011030003621.96100.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Lois, You could ask your friend to become an IP (Information Provider) and get FTP access that way. Or your friend can go to Geocities, of course. Patrick --- Lois wrote: > >I wish SCN had secure FTP so that individuals could create > personal web sites on SCN with ease. > > A simpler way to upload would be nice but FTP certainly isn't a > requirement for ease of use. I have webpages at many sites that > require me to upload either one file at a time or up to 10 files at > a time. But, I don't have to jump though menu hoops to be able to > do it - I just click on upload and enter the filepathname. I have > one poor volunteer for my church webpage at SCN that still hasn't > been able to upload a file successfully - he is a Mac user and not > UNIX knowledgeable. > > Lois > --- > Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity. > > > > Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. > http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From look971 at mailandnews.com Mon Oct 29 06:21:10 2001 From: look971 at mailandnews.com (Jenifer) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 06:21:10 Subject: SCN: tonight's plans Message-ID: <200110292016560.SM01688@html> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bb615 at scn.scn.org Tue Oct 30 13:23:07 2001 From: bb615 at scn.scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:23:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Possible Roles for SCN -- and what we can do about it... In-Reply-To: <20011030003621.96100.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Lois Beedle wrote: > > ... I have one poor volunteer for my church webpage at SCN > > that still hasn't been able to upload a file successfully - > > he is a Mac user and not UNIX knowledgeable. Lois, If he's using an FTP program that automatically asumes that the upload path is /home/username/public_html (and many programs do have this set as the default), then what you can try, that might help, is this: Ask Operations to make a link from that path to the actual path for the Web uploads, so he won't have to manually fiddle with specifying the non-default path name. Like this: ln -s /web/ucc /home/ucc/public_html Then he can upload files without messing around. This is one of the things that baffles and defeats a lot of IPs, especially the non-technical ones. We have asked Ops, about 6 months ago, to do this for all the IPs. We set up a test with a test IP account and showed that it workd just fine, when done this way. But as far as I know, it isn't yet being done yet. I do think this IP setup step would imporove the success rate of nonprofits' getting their sites up quite a lot. It would make SCN's upload process for IPs standard, as compared to other ISPs, which would be a big improvement. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Tue Oct 30 13:33:42 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:33:42 -0800 Subject: SCN: [Fwd: FC: Filtering software fans complain that -- they're being filtered!] Message-ID: <3BDF1CB6.5D89DB8F@blarg.net> Another example of "enforcement creep", this one applied extra-legally which is even more dangerous IMO. -s -------- Original Message -------- Subject: FC: Filtering software fans complain that -- they're being filtered! Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:09:45 -0500 From: Declan McCullagh Reply-To: declan at well.com To: politech at politechbot.com CC: safesurf at safesurf.com [There seems to be little interesting to say about filtering software and ratings anymore -- it's an old and a tired, debate. But a censorware proponent complaining about being, well, censored does seem a bit much. --Declan] http://www.safesurf.com/press/press27.htm SafeSurf Press Release 1304 Newbury Road, Unit E, Newbury Park, CA 91320 E-mail: safesurf at safesurf.com * Web Site: http://www.safesurf.com/ FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE October 25, 2001 Contact : Ray Soular Press Phone : (818) 613-1415 SafeSurf Warns of Stealth Censorship Los Angeles, CA - Thousands of family friendly Web sites, for no fault of their own, are being rendered inaccessible by "stealth censorship" and it may be putting people's lives at risk, warned SafeSurf, the online safety organization. This new type of censorship, promoted by a California corporation called Mail Abuse Prevention System, LLC (MAPS), silences every Web site whose address is located on a server that also happens to host one or two unrelated email marketing sites. However, since the browser message displayed says that the Web sites are non-existent, online surfers have no idea they are being denied access to many parts of the Internet. "This is stealth censorship*", remarked SafeSurf Chairman Ray Soular as he described how Web site owners have no rights under this system. "Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS) publicizes its Realtime Blackhole List (RBL) as being only of certified email abusers (spammers). It provides this list to Internet Service Providers (ISP) who rely on its accuracy when shutting out these spammers. In reality, MAPS' practice of listing entire groups of IP numbers, instead of the specific addresses of the spammers, is causing ISPs to shut off access to sites that have done no wrong other than they have similar IP numbers to the spammers. Its like shutting off phone service to thousands of people simply because they have the same prefix as an obscene caller," explained Soular. "To make matters worse, MAPS has no idea of what content it may be blocking. Imagine trying to connect to a crisis assistance site after a devastating earthquake, only to find its among a vast IP group being blocked by RBL. People can die as the result of their blind imprecision. They MUST be regulated," Soular reasoned. Teleglobe, a global Internet provider who subscribes to the MAPS' Realtime Blackhole List (RBL), was blocking SafeSurf in many countries, simply because SafeSurf's Web site was on a public server owned by an hosting company once accused of providing services to email marketers. (News Flash Oct 29, 2001: MAPS removed SafeSurf from its Blackhole list and Teleglobe removed blocking.) "Under their system, an unsuspecting Web site can become a RBL hostage at any time, for any reason, and without appeal. Unless the owner of the server meets MAPS demands, the innocent hostage site will be left to rot in the 'Blackhole'," pointed out Soular. "This is the worst manifestation of censorship imaginable because it is applied in a way which fools Web surfers into thinking they still have their freedom", said Soular. ### _______________________________________________________________ Below is the text of SafeSurf's Open Letter to the Internet Community concerning MAPS' Realtime Blackhole List (RBL) that targets general IP groups instead of specific IP addresses. SafeSurf was recently alerted that we were marked for blocking, for no fault of our own, by Mail Abuse Prevention System's Realtime Blackhole List (RBL). SafeSurf has never sent out a single piece of junk email in the life of our company. Parents and Webmasters depend upon communication from SafeSurf to enable them to protect children on the Internet. As a result, by blocking SafeSurf, MAPS is endangering millions of children across the globe. MAPS' RBL blocking is censorship in its worst manifestation. It is a extremist system that seeks to censor people simply because they happen to be with the same ISP that has a particular individual that MAPS does not like. Their tactics would be similar to someone using a nuclear weapon to wipe out a cockroach. Although they may contact the ISP, MAPS makes no effort, whatsoever, to warn the people actually being censored. The innocent Web Sites have to depend on others to discover that their right to free speech has been desecrated. MAPS actions demonstrate what SafeSurf has long suspected; true censorship arises for the purpose of advancing the agenda of a particular group of individuals. Censorship is a broad brush that drips paint on the pure, as well as the tainted. MAPS may claim that their actions are in the interest of good, but in reality they would easily trade in the good of children to achieve their goal. They have more than proved this point by holding the SafeSurf Web Site hostage until they force the acquiescence of others. MAPS has no idea of what content it may be blocking. Therefore, they could negligently block sites that contain important life saving medical information, sites that protect children, and sites that output emergency info during tornado watches, fire and flood alerts. Imagine trying to connect to a crisis assistance site after a devastating earthquake, only to find its among a vast IP group being blocked by RBL. People can die as the result of their blind imprecision. They MUST be regulated. We hate spam as much as anyone else. SafeSurf receives hundreds of spam emails every day. However, we cherish our civil liberties too much to ever trade them to the careless people who are running MAPS. We have tried to reason with MAPS, but they refuse to offer affected Web sites a case-by-case appeal process. They seem to not care about fairness. They are blinded by the smell of spammer's blood and do not seem to care how many innocent Web sites they trounce in the process. Then, they rationalize and try to put the blame for their wanton actions on everyone else. This issue is completely different from the debate over porn filtering, because in that debate, at least it was agreed that the sites we were discussing were responsible for their acts. In this case, MAPS employs an underhanded tactic of targeting the innocent in order to persuade the guilty. We must insist that MAPS operate in a responsible manner. A just cause is no excuse for unjust actions. By accepting MAPS, we are, in effect, agreeing to full censorship of anyone, for any reason. This is beyond the worst-case scenarios we could've imagined coming from governments. MAPS may be on a crusade to rid the Internet of spam, but this should not give them the authority to deny freedoms to the blameless. It should not give them the power to shroud someone's brilliance simply because it happens to be on a MAPS targeted ISP. It should not give them the right to make a mockery of the pillars upon which America was built. I feel sorry for all the subscribers to Teleglobe, which trusts MAPS' RBL list. They have traded access to the truth in exchange for a cleaner mailbox. The really sad part is they don't even know it. We must raise our voices to warn the online world of stealth censorship. For in the end, we will either loudly hold on to our liberty or it will become clear that we gave up our rights by our silence. Sincerely, Ray Soular, Chairman SafeSurf * The term, stealth blocking, was first used by Bennett Haselton in "The Coalition Statement Against Stealth Blocking" to be found at http://www.peacefire.org/. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 13:55:02 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:55:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Homestead - no more free websites Message-ID: <20011030215502.43829.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> I hear that Homestead is changing it's rules on websites starting on the 1st of November. I would not be surprised it Yahoo did the same thing and started charging. They have ads showing that they are charging for their sucky Personals page. A great opportunity for SCN to provide free hosting with no ads. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 14:02:51 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:02:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Homestead - no more free websites In-Reply-To: <20011030215502.43829.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011030220251.12554.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> I need to clarify that SCN does have free hosting. But it does not have easy to use FTP uploading of files. Just imagine if SCN had both free hosting and easy-to-use FTP...Like Rod said, we'd drive traffic and more donations and volunteers. Yes, performance would take a hit, but no reason why SCN's hosting has to be in one location. Partnering with Speakeasy??? Patrick --- patrick wrote: > I hear that Homestead is changing it's rules on websites starting > on > the 1st of November. > > I would not be surprised it Yahoo did the same thing and started > charging. They have ads showing that they are charging for their > sucky Personals page. > > A great opportunity for SCN to provide free hosting with no ads. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.scn.org Tue Oct 30 14:22:09 2001 From: randy at scn.scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:22:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Homestead - no more free websites In-Reply-To: <20011030220251.12554.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: We do not have free hosting - if I interpret this to mean that we provide aliases for web sites. For instance, a pointer that would connect www.thisisapersonalwebsite.com to scn.org. But if this isn't what you meant, then we'll need to do another iteration of definitions to make a determination ... -randy On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > I need to clarify that SCN does have free hosting. But it does not > have easy to use FTP uploading of files. > > Just imagine if SCN had both free hosting and easy-to-use FTP...Like > Rod said, we'd drive traffic and more donations and volunteers. > > Yes, performance would take a hit, but no reason why SCN's hosting > has to be in one location. Partnering with Speakeasy??? > > Patrick > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From robert_jones at china.com Tue Oct 30 14:44:24 2001 From: robert_jones at china.com (robert_jones at china.com) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:44:24 -0800 Subject: SCN: New Wave Services Message-ID: <200110302246.OAA29457@scn.org> New Wave Services SOME INFORMATION ABOUT OUR COMPANY: New Wave Services only distributes legal credit repair information and financial business programs to thousands of individuals all over the United States. In doing so, we have developed a work-at-home program for individuals interested in the opportunity of earning an extra $500.00 to $1,500.00 per week working directly from the comforts of their own home, dorm or apartment. Our work-at-home program is an honest opportunity for you to earn a serious extra income without having to sacrifice a lot of your free time. All of the work that you will be doing is very simple and can be done from your desk or right at your kitchen table. As a home worker, you can work full or part time whenever you have the free time, mornings, afternoons or evenings. In addition, there is absolutely no experience necessary for you to participate in our program. Our work-at-home program is perfect for individuals interested in earning a serious extra income to help pay off of their bills! That's right! If you have car payments, rent, mortgage payments, credit card bills, loan payments, etc...this is an excellent opportunity for you to supplement your existing income and start putting some extra money in your pocket! If you are interested, the following information will help to further explain the very profitable work-at-home program that we have to offer you. PROGRAM DESCRIPTION: Our program simply involves the folding and processing of pamphlets. YOU WILL RECEIVE A FULL $1.00 FOR EACH AND EVERY PAMPHLET THAT YOU PROCESS! What do we mean by process? It's simple... FIRST: You will neatly fold the provided preprinted single-sided (8 1/2 by 11 inch) pamphlets into thirds [The pamphlet that you will be processing will be provided to you and will be printed on regular 20 lb. (8-1/2 by 11) inch paper. SECOND: You will neatly insert the folded pamphlets into the pre-addressed, postage paid envelopes [These envelopes will be sent directly to your home, dorm or apartment with customers' names and addresses already printed on the envelopes along with postage already affixed to the envelopes]. THIRD: Lick and seal these envelopes and then send them out, directly to the customers. It's that simple! You DO NOT have to pay any postage costs to send out these pamphlets. The pre-addressed, postage paid envelopes will be sent directly to your home, dorm or apartment. You simply fold the pamphlets, insert them in the envelopes and send them right out! Remember, all of the processing work can easily be done at your desk or right at your kitchen table! IMPORTANT: We do provide you with the actual pamphlet that you will be processing which is a sales pamphlet for our Credit Repair Manual. Our Credit Repair Manual is a best-selling financial product that many people are ordering and using to legally clear up their negative credit. And since the demand for our Credit Repair Manual is so OVERWHELMING, you will have the opportunity to process as many pamphlets as your schedule can handle! You can process 100...500...1,000 or even 1,500 pamphlets per week, week after week, month after month, year after year ... for as long as you wish to participate! HOW MUCH MONEY CAN YOU EARN? YOU WILL RECEIVE A FULL $1.00 FOR EACH AND EVERY PAMPHLET THAT YOU PROCESS! If you process 500 pamphlets you will receive a full $500.00..If you process 1,000 pamphlets you will receive a full $1,000.00...if you process 1,500 pamphlets you will receive a full $1,500.00...Etc! What's even better about our program is that you NEVER have to worry about the sale of our Credit Repair Manual in order to receive your $1.00 per pamphlet. Our program DOES NOT WORK ON COMMISSION! You will receive a FULL $1.00 for each and every pamphlet that you process REGARDLESS if any sales are made! Even if you process 1,500 pamphlets and no sales are made, you will still earn A FULL $1,500.00! It's simple, process 1,500 pamphlets, and receive A FULL $1,500.00 for your time and effort! Processing payments and additional processing materials will continue to arrive at your home, dorm or apartment for as long as you wish to continue participating in the program! That's right, you can always have money coming in week after week because processing payments and additional processing materials will continue to arrive at your home, dorm or apartment for as long as you wish to participate! Honestly, there is NO GUESSWORK. Our program has been around for several years and is very successful! FACT: Even working slowly, you could still earn a MUCH BETTER weekly income than most regular 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM jobs! THERE IS NO EXPERIENCE REQUIRED TO PARTICIPATE IN OUR PROGRAM: Anyone, young or old, male or female, anywhere in the United States can easily earn great money participating in our Pamphlet Processing Program! The reason why our program does not require any experience is simple...it does not take any previous experience to fold a pamphlet, insert it into an envelope, and seal an envelope. Plus, our program is especially beneficial for people who need to earn a serious extra income but might not have the spare time for a second job. As stated, just a few hours per day could possibly earn you well over $500.00 per week... NO JOKE! Just imagine how nice it would be if you could earn an extra $500.00 to $1,500.00 per week working from your home...no more annoying boss...no more hectic rush hour commuting...no more stressful 9 to 5 job...and no more headaches! FACT: Practically every type of person can benefit financially from our Pamphlet Processing Program. IMPORTANT: The information contained in our Credit Repair Manual is 100% Legal and Legitimate! In fact, there are hundreds of lawyers and attorneys all over the country using this valuable information and charging people big money to remove negative and incorrect items from their credit files! However, our Credit Repair Manual explains how people can do the VERY SAME THING that these costly attorneys are doing except our credit repair manual shows people how to repair their credit FAST, EASY and for FREE without having to hire an attorney! Now is the time, there are TENS-OF-MILLIONS of Americans with bad credit that would probably love to receive our Credit Repair Manual! Therefore, if you are serious about devoting a few hours per week towards the opportunity of earning an honest extra income, our $1.00 Pamphlet Processing Program is PERFECT FOR YOU! IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO PARTICIPATE: We will send you a Starter's Kit containing the instructions necessary for you to begin participating IMMEDIATELY in our Pamphlet Processing Program! Plus, your Starters Kit also contains your very own copy of Credit Repair Manual! That's right you can use our best-selling manual to legally clear up and repair any negative credit that you may have! This manual is included for becoming a member of our Pamphlet Processing Program! Therefore, to get started immediately, all that our company requires is a one-time refundable order-processing fee of only $45. Please understand, we cannot afford to send out a package of valuable materials to everyone interested in our program. And also keep in mind that once you process 100 pamphlets you will have already earned your $45 back and are left with an extra $55 profit!!! We must charge a small processing fee to ensure that only serious individuals intend to participate in our program. Keep in mind, you NEVER have to pay us any other fees and you can participate for as long as you wish! This fee simply assures our company that you are indeed serious about our program and the opportunity to make good money working from your home. Sorry, we CAN NOT process your order form without the one-time processing fee since there are far too many serious individuals willing to pay this small one-time fee in order to participate in our high profit work-at-home program. Therefore, all you have to do is just complete, print, sign, and send in the Order Form (FORM AHG-743: 19.S). Please, be sure to complete the Order Form IN FULL, legible, with your correct shipping address in order to prevent any processing delays in the shipment of your package. That's right, if you are really looking for a 100% LEGAL and LEGITIMATE home based income opportunity we can honestly say that you have finally found the right company with an honest and proven money making program! P.S. KNOW A FRIEND WHO MIGHT BE INTERESTED? PRINT A COPY FOR ALL YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY. NOTE: ALL ORDERS FROM FRIENDS AND FAMILY MUST BE ACCOMPANIED WITH THE PROCESSING FEE. FOR EACH FRIEND OR FAMILY ORDER, DEDUCT $10 FROM YOUR ORDER AS A BONUS. PRINT, COMPLETE AND MAIL IN THE ORDER FROM BELOW! Please mail in the order form only. Print below this line only! ----------------------------------------------------------------- - PROCESSING DEPARTMENT - New Wave Services 17328 Ventura Blvd # 244 - 5662 Encino, CA 91316 - HOMEWORKER ORDER FORM - * FORM AHG-743: 19.A (USE 2000-2001) * [Provide us with the correct mailing address to ship your starter's kit, and PLEASE PRINT CLEARLY] FIRSTNAME:_______________________LASTNAME:_______________________ ADDRESS:___________________________________________APT.#:________ CITY:_______________________________STATE:_________ZIPCODE__________ DAY PHONE:(____)_______-_______ EVENING PHONE #:(____)______-_______ BIRTHDATE:__/__/__ EMAIL ADDRESS___________________________ SIGNATURE_________________________________TODAY'S DATE___/___/___ YES, I would like the opportunity to earn extra money working right from the comfort of my home or apartment participating in the Pamphlet Processing Program. I understand that my starter's kit will contain the instructions necessary to get me started IMMEDIATELY as a member of the Pamphlet Processing Program! I also understand that my Starter's Kit will contain my very own copy of the CREDIT REPAIR MANUAL! I understand that I can use the CREDIT REPAIR MANUAL to legally clear up and repair any negative credit that I might have! I understand that this material is provided to me for becoming a member of the Pamphlet Processing Program! I also understand that I will be free to set my own hours and participate in the program either part-time or full-time. I do understand that a small refundable fee of $45 is a ONE-TIME FEE ONLY! I will not have to pay New Wave Services any other fees, EVER! IMPORTANT: Since we DO NOT want to create any unnecessary competition between our existing members we do reserve the right to stop accepting new members if our quota is met. Therefore, if you are serious about this income opportunity we do suggest that you send in you completed form IMMEDIATELY that will GUARANTEE the delivery of your Starter's Kit! DESIRED WEEKLY INCOME 100 300 500 700 800 900 1000 1100 1200 1300 1400 1500 (circle one) IMPORTANT: $50.00 ENCLOSED [$45 + $5 Postage and Handling] MONEY ORDERS AND CHECKS MUST BE PAYABLE TO: New Wave Services IMPORTANT: PLEASE ALLOW 2-4 WEEKS PROCESSING TIME FOR ORDERS PLACED WITH CHECKS. ORDERS PLACED BY MONEY ORDER OR CASH ALLOW 10 BUSINESS DAYS DELIVERY TIME. WHERE DID YOU SEE OUR COMPANY ADVERTISEMENT? NEWSPAPER____RECYCLER____MAIL____EMAIL____OTHER____ This is a one time mailing. To be removed from our database. Reply with "REMOVE" in the subject line. Please allow 48-72 hours for removal. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 15:20:37 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:20:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Homestead - no more free websites In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011030232037.54760.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Randy, What I mean is: If someone walked in off the street wanted an SCN account and website, they could have one for free. Such as in: http://www.scn.org/~heidimo/ This person has a free website on SCN. That is the scope of my definition. When I mean free, they can have a site and other people can go to it. But they will have hell to pay when doing file transfers. So it may as well be free. Or free, but not worth it, because everyday users don't have ftp access. So wouldn't it be great if SCN had FTP for the average Joe. If the SCN hosting was done elsewhere, could we have secure FTP that way? Patrick --- Randy Groves wrote: > > We do not have free hosting - if I interpret this to mean that we > provide > aliases for web sites. For instance, a pointer that would connect > www.thisisapersonalwebsite.com to scn.org. > > But if this isn't what you meant, then we'll need to do another > iteration > of definitions to make a determination ... > > -randy > > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > > > I need to clarify that SCN does have free hosting. But it does > not > > have easy to use FTP uploading of files. > > > > Just imagine if SCN had both free hosting and easy-to-use > FTP...Like > > Rod said, we'd drive traffic and more donations and volunteers. > > > > Yes, performance would take a hit, but no reason why SCN's > hosting > > has to be in one location. Partnering with Speakeasy??? > > > > Patrick > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.scn.org Tue Oct 30 17:21:05 2001 From: starsrus at scn.scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:21:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Homestead - no more free websites In-Reply-To: <20011030232037.54760.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > Randy, > > What I mean is: If someone walked in off the street wanted an SCN > account and website, they could have one for free. Such as in: > > http://www.scn.org/~heidimo/ > > This person has a free website on SCN. That is the scope of my > definition. > Well, for totally free, it would be more like http://www.scn.org/~bx123/ because free accounts get assigned names under the scheme used by the Freeport user interface. People can get "vanity" accounts for a donation [$25?] and choose their own account name. But either type of user account gets created with a /home//work/public_html directory which the web server responds to as www.scn.org/~. I don't know how much you have looked at the Freeport menu interface, but there are tools there for working with files in your public_html directory. > When I mean free, they can have a site and other people can go to it. > But they will have hell to pay when doing file transfers. So it may > as well be free. Or free, but not worth it, because everyday users > don't have ftp access. > > So wouldn't it be great if SCN had FTP for the average Joe. If the > SCN hosting was done elsewhere, could we have secure FTP that way? Hosting done elsewhere? As in using a commercial name redirection service? The astronomy club has been doing that since last spring - we got a domain name registerd through a service called namesecure.com, which sets up redirection so that "http://seattleastro.org" points to "http://www.scn.org/sastro/sas.html", our home page. Except for the cost, this has some nice advantages - (1) absolutely nothing has to be done on the scn end. (2) they throw in email redirection, so that just-about-anything at seattleastro.org winds up in the mailbox of xx004 at scn.org, our standard Freeport ip account. So, I have email inquiries directed with a "mailto:info at seattleastro.org". Ken Applegate > > Patrick > > > --- Randy Groves wrote: > > > > We do not have free hosting - if I interpret this to mean that we > > provide > > aliases for web sites. For instance, a pointer that would connect > > www.thisisapersonalwebsite.com to scn.org. > > > > But if this isn't what you meant, then we'll need to do another > > iteration > > of definitions to make a determination ... > > > > -randy > > > > > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > I need to clarify that SCN does have free hosting. But it does > > not > > > have easy to use FTP uploading of files. > > > > > > Just imagine if SCN had both free hosting and easy-to-use > > FTP...Like > > > Rod said, we'd drive traffic and more donations and volunteers. > > > > > > Yes, performance would take a hit, but no reason why SCN's > > hosting > > > has to be in one location. Partnering with Speakeasy??? > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Tue Oct 30 18:29:27 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:29:27 -0800 Subject: SCN: [Fwd: A different sort of war...] Message-ID: <3BDF6207.3BDDB024@blarg.net> Look out Taliban... -------- Original Message -------- Subject: A different sort of war... ------- Forwarded message follows ------- We are women, hear us roar, dammit. Take all American women who are within five years of menopause - train us for a few weeks, outfit us with automatic weapons, grenades, gas masks, moisturizer with SPF15, Prozac, hormones, chocolate, and canned tuna, drop us (parachuted, preferably) across the landscape of Afghanistan, and let us do what comes naturally. Think about it. Our anger quotient alone, even when doing standard stuff like grocery shopping and paying bills, is formidable enough to make even armed men in turbans tremble. We've had our children, we would gladly suffer or die to protect them and their future. We'd like to get away from our husbands, if they haven't left already. And for those of us who are single, the prospect of finding a good man with whom to share life is about as likely as being struck by lightning. We have nothing to lose. We've survived the water diet, the protein diet, the carbohydrate diet, and the grapefruit diet in gyms and saunas across America and never lost a pound. We can easily survive months in the hostile terrain of Afghanistan with no food at all! We've spent years tracking down our husbands or lovers in bars, hardware stores, or sporting events...finding bin Laden in some cave will be no problem. Uniting all the warring tribes of Afghanistan in a new government? Oh, please ... we've planned the seating arrangements for in-laws and extended families at Thanksgiving dinners for years ... we understand tribal warfare. Between us, we've divorced enough husbands to know every trick there is for how they hide, launder, or cover up bank accounts and money sources. We know how to find that money and we know how to seize it... with or without the government's help! Let us go and fight. The Taliban hates women. Imagine their terror as we crawl like ants with hot-flashes over their godforsaken terrain. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.scn.org Tue Oct 30 22:36:45 2001 From: jj at scn.scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:36:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Homestead - no more free websites In-Reply-To: <20011030232037.54760.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > If the SCN hosting was done elsewhere, could we have secure FTP...? Nope. (Is that adequately non-obfuscacious?) Currently _any_ general ftp service would be insecure. It has nothing do with "SCN hosting", but with technical issues that need addressing. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Wed Oct 31 00:09:46 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:09:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Homestead - no more free websites In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Similarly, the address we publicize for the Crisis Reource Directory is www.seattlcrisis.org, which redirects to www.scn.org/crisis. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Kenneth Applegate wrote: > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > > > Randy, > > > > What I mean is: If someone walked in off the street wanted an SCN > > account and website, they could have one for free. Such as in: > > > > http://www.scn.org/~heidimo/ > > > > This person has a free website on SCN. That is the scope of my > > definition. > > > > Well, for totally free, it would be more like http://www.scn.org/~bx123/ > because free accounts get assigned names under the scheme used by the > Freeport user interface. People can get "vanity" accounts for a donation > [$25?] and choose their own account name. > > But either type of user account gets created with a > /home//work/public_html directory which the web server responds > to as www.scn.org/~. I don't know how much you have looked at > the Freeport menu interface, but there are tools there for working with > files in your public_html directory. > > > > When I mean free, they can have a site and other people can go to it. > > But they will have hell to pay when doing file transfers. So it may > > as well be free. Or free, but not worth it, because everyday users > > don't have ftp access. > > > > So wouldn't it be great if SCN had FTP for the average Joe. If the > > SCN hosting was done elsewhere, could we have secure FTP that way? > > Hosting done elsewhere? As in using a commercial name redirection service? > The astronomy club has been doing that since last spring - we got a domain > name registerd through a service called namesecure.com, which sets up > redirection so that "http://seattleastro.org" points to > "http://www.scn.org/sastro/sas.html", our home page. Except for the cost, > this has some nice advantages - (1) absolutely nothing has to be done on > the scn end. (2) they throw in email redirection, so that > just-about-anything at seattleastro.org winds up in the mailbox of > xx004 at scn.org, our standard Freeport ip account. So, I have email > inquiries directed with a "mailto:info at seattleastro.org". > > > Ken Applegate > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > --- Randy Groves wrote: > > > > > > We do not have free hosting - if I interpret this to mean that we > > > provide > > > aliases for web sites. For instance, a pointer that would connect > > > www.thisisapersonalwebsite.com to scn.org. > > > > > > But if this isn't what you meant, then we'll need to do another > > > iteration > > > of definitions to make a determination ... > > > > > > -randy > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > I need to clarify that SCN does have free hosting. But it does > > > not > > > > have easy to use FTP uploading of files. > > > > > > > > Just imagine if SCN had both free hosting and easy-to-use > > > FTP...Like > > > > Rod said, we'd drive traffic and more donations and volunteers. > > > > > > > > Yes, performance would take a hit, but no reason why SCN's > > > hosting > > > > has to be in one location. Partnering with Speakeasy??? > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > > * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > > ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > > * * * > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > > http://personals.yahoo.com > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? > By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.scn.org Wed Oct 31 05:15:13 2001 From: bb615 at scn.scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 05:15:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Homestead - no more free websites In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Currently _any_ general ftp service would be insecure. It has nothing do > with "SCN hosting", but with technical issues that need addressing. JJ, Every ISP in the world has an FTP service. If they didn't, they wouldn't have any customers. Not having "customers" is our basic problem with this. The other basic problem, as epitomized in your note above, is how to transfer the necessary knowledge to SCN's technical volunteers, that a good ISP understands, about how to do services such as this, so that we too can have customers, instead of not having them. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 21:55:35 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:55:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Featured Sites - Recommendations requested Message-ID: <20011101055535.50839.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> It's that time of the month to rotate in some new sites for Featured Sites of the Month for the homepage. If you have a recommendation, please let me know. If you have a one-paragraph blurb and a logo, please send it along. The Telephone Museum received some hits and interesting mail after being featured on the homepage. So it does work. Thanks, Patrick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Wed Oct 31 20:17:32 2001 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:17:32 -0800 Subject: SCN: Re: Possible Roles for SCN -- and what we can do about it... References: <200110292342.PAA22824@scn.org> Message-ID: <000201c162e0$e5e570e0$7152fea9@desktop> I agree with Doug. I would put two ideas first. After those two things, the rest would become doable. First thing: Become a stable ISP (internet hookup entity). That might require charging $5.00 per person per month but then we could give up the non-profit status and do some high-powered lobbying. Our non-profit status blocks us completely from doing numbers number 5, and seriously cripples us from doing 1, 7, 8, and 9. THEN, I would make sure that the SCNA e-mail was (a) as easy Outlook (could use Outlook) and (b) was HTML able. After that, we would gather members like lawns gathering leaves in fall. ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Schuler To: Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:42 PM Subject: SCN: Possible Roles for SCN -- and what we can do about it... > Possible Roles for SCN -- and what we can do about it... > > SCNites, > > I've compiled a quick note which I think (HOPE!) may help us now and in > the future. > > The first part of the note is a brief list of all of the possible roles > for SCN I could think of this morning over my second cup of coffee. > > After this list I make a simple suggestion that I think could (help) > guide further development on SCN. I'd love to know what you think. > > > ------------------ possible roles for SCN -- > (PS. there are many others -- let me know what they are and I'll add them) > [Note, I added numbers to Doug's list.] > 1. Assume a place at the table for developing city / regional / state (and > other?) ICT initiatives and policy. (ICT = "information and > communication technology) > > 2. Provide low / no cost ICT services (email, listservs, web pages, etc.) > > 3. Provide useful civic and community content on our web site (and other > places?) > > 4. Provide portal to Seattle community / civic information, applications > and services > > 5. Agitate for socially responsible ICT policy locally, regionally, and > beyond > > 6. Perform training and other pubic education > > 7. Help define and develop future community / civic information, > applications and services > > 8. Work with community / civic groups to develop relevant ICT applications > and services > > 9. Take part in regional, national, and international coalitions to > advance community / civic ICT goals. > > ------------------------------------------------ > > > If we asked everybody in SCN to prioritize these possible roles > I'm assuming that we'd have some champions for each and every one of > these roles. > > So which of these roles should we as SCN volunteers address? > > ALL OF THEM. > > But, people will say, we don't have the resources to do ALL OF THEM. > That's right! We don't have the resources AT THE MOMENT to do all of > them. So, at this point in time let's not do ALL of them. In fact, at > any given point in time, let's just focus on the ones in which we have > volunteers who are willing to do the work. > > We have to realize that ALL of these issues are important and that they > together form a coherent body of work that SCN stands for. > > We have, in fact, worked on all of them, at one time or another. > > I'm not against setting priorities. We have to do that! But that > shouldn't be used as an excuse to rule out a relevant piece of work. > > Let's do the limited amount of work that we can do. The way I see it, > however, there is no reason to ban certain activities. The situation > is dynamic -- we need to be dynamic as well! > > Thanks! > > -- Doug > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * *