From er-chan at scn.org Tue Sep 4 16:21:17 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: SCN Site Redesign Goal In-Reply-To: <20010827014444.5071.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Please consider the preliminary design(yes the buttons down the left side do repeat -needs work) at : http://www.scn.org/~er-chan/scn.html preliminary design Hello owner-webmasters at scn.org (On 08/26/01,6:44pm,you wrote Re: WEB: Re:... p> --- er-chan wrote: p> I posted to webmasters,webmaster,webmaster, and help at scn.org so that I would p> have all volunteers commenting on the logos. I wanted to make sure all p> volunteers were aware of the designs as many of the volunteers have been with p> SCN for quite awhile and do a lot of work and it is important that they have a p> say before the board decides on a few logos and site designs. p> p> I did not intend on having people disagree, but having them putting in their p> two cents. p> p> After the board decides on a few logos and designs, then it will be upen to p> public discussion. p> p> Patrick p> _,--------, .-. \ o / elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Tue Sep 4 17:08:54 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature Message-ID: <200109050008.RAA15236@scn.org> The question has come up about which web sites to feature and which web sites should be mentioned on our web site. I find myself agreeing with Rod about the inclusion of the non-Christian sites on our website even if they don't have web pages on our site. It's difficult to make the claim of being a *community network* if we only mention "our" pages. Maybe the policy should be that we have to mention "our" pages and we probably should mention other pages especcially when diversity is lackikng in ours. As for highlighting pages on the (soon to be reincarnated) content on the front page I'd suggest that we strive for diversity of content areas each time. Say, one page from education, one from civic, one from neighborhood, etc. IN this area I'd also hope that we would NOT be limited to "our" pages. I'd sugest Real Change, the IMC, public theater, etc. Speaking of content... did we quietly disappear commercial pages and individual pages? Rather than wait for an answer I'll venture my opinion that if we did ban them then that was a mistake... -- Doug * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Tue Sep 4 18:46:40 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: <200109050008.RAA15236@scn.org> Message-ID: > Speaking of content... did we quietly disappear commercial pages > and individual pages? Rather than wait for an answer I'll > venture my opinion that if we did ban them then that was a > mistake... Doug, Personal site hosting could have been very important for SCN in attracting users, volunteers and suport - a significant attraction (and maybe it still could be if we radically upgraded it.). But not as it is being offered now. Sadly, our personal site hosting is largely moribund because it is so behind the times and uncompetitive with the choices much better other that people have. Word of mouth has been very unkind to SCN on this. Our listing at http://www.scn.org/subscribers mostly hasn't been updated for quite a while, because almost no users are interested in new personal site hosting on SCN any more. It's so clunky to make and maintain a personal site on SCN that people, especially those who are new to the Web, know not to come to SCN for that. Our Operations committee is adamant that it is impossible to allow our users to use FTP, for Ops' own reasons. This means that we have essentially thrown away any chance to catch up in this area, as long as we stick with such a user-unfriendly system as we have. A few small businesses tried SCN and almost all have since moved elsewhere. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From femme2 at scn.org Tue Sep 4 20:27:39 2001 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well - on the bright side, it's a great way to enhance security. No users. I'm not sure about the problem being just clunkiness. I've been asked to help a few folks who decided to use the horrible program that KING 5 was offering - it was dreadful. But they had a hands-on session that reassured folks that a human being was available to help them. The support, however, was illusory and the Websites were dumped. Well, that is not KING 5's business. Long, long ago I thought it WAS the business of SCN. My point is that I do believe that there are people who would be interested in SCN if there were some friendly helpers - maybe not. But community centers offering hands-on help a few times a month would be worth a try, IMO. It would at least show that the organization had some interest in the community. Lorraine ====================================== On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > Speaking of content... did we quietly disappear commercial pages > > and individual pages? Rather than wait for an answer I'll > > venture my opinion that if we did ban them then that was a > > mistake... > > Doug, > > Personal site hosting could have been very important for SCN > in attracting users, volunteers and suport - a significant > attraction (and maybe it still could be if we radically upgraded > it.). But not as it is being offered now. Sadly, our personal > site hosting is largely moribund because it is so behind the > times and uncompetitive with the choices much better other that > people have. Word of mouth has been very unkind to SCN on this. > Our listing at http://www.scn.org/subscribers mostly hasn't been > updated for quite a while, because almost no users are > interested in new personal site hosting on SCN any more. > > It's so clunky to make and maintain a personal site on SCN > that people, especially those who are new to the Web, know not > to come to SCN for that. Our Operations committee is adamant > that it is impossible to allow our users to use FTP, for Ops' > own reasons. This means that we have essentially thrown away any > chance to catch up in this area, as long as we stick with such a > user-unfriendly system as we have. > > A few small businesses tried SCN and almost all have since > moved elsewhere. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 20:43:03 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010905034303.18243.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Everyone, I have some sites ready to profile on the homepage, but there is another procedure for getting the index.html file modified. I just found this out. I thought that I could simply ftp the index.html file up and get it going. I have to work on the homepage this weekend as I have some 15 hour work days coming the next three days, so I have to wait until Saturday or Sunday. Rest assured, the sites will be featured. And very soon. Patrick --- Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > > Well - on the bright side, it's a great way to enhance security. > No users. > > I'm not sure about the problem being just clunkiness. I've been asked > to help a few folks who decided to use the horrible program that > KING 5 was offering - it was dreadful. But they had a hands-on > session that reassured folks that a human being was available to > help them. The support, however, was illusory and the Websites > were dumped. Well, that is not KING 5's business. Long, long > ago I thought it WAS the business of SCN. > > My point is that I do believe that there are people who would > be interested in SCN if there were some friendly helpers - > maybe not. But community centers offering hands-on help a > few times a month would be worth a try, IMO. It would at > least show that the organization had some interest in the > community. > > Lorraine > ====================================== > > > On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > > > Speaking of content... did we quietly disappear commercial pages > > > and individual pages? Rather than wait for an answer I'll > > > venture my opinion that if we did ban them then that was a > > > mistake... > > > > Doug, > > > > Personal site hosting could have been very important for SCN > > in attracting users, volunteers and suport - a significant > > attraction (and maybe it still could be if we radically upgraded > > it.). But not as it is being offered now. Sadly, our personal > > site hosting is largely moribund because it is so behind the > > times and uncompetitive with the choices much better other that > > people have. Word of mouth has been very unkind to SCN on this. > > Our listing at http://www.scn.org/subscribers mostly hasn't been > > updated for quite a while, because almost no users are > > interested in new personal site hosting on SCN any more. > > > > It's so clunky to make and maintain a personal site on SCN > > that people, especially those who are new to the Web, know not > > to come to SCN for that. Our Operations committee is adamant > > that it is impossible to allow our users to use FTP, for Ops' > > own reasons. This means that we have essentially thrown away any > > chance to catch up in this area, as long as we stick with such a > > user-unfriendly system as we have. > > > > A few small businesses tried SCN and almost all have since > > moved elsewhere. > > > > Rod Clark > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 20:55:37 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Suggestion Re: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010905035537.70751.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> I realize that there are a lot of things that could be better about SCN, som eof them we can change right now, some that we just can't get to right now. Rather than divide those up and see which are which and debate this or that, and even get frustrated, well I don't see a lot of time for doing that. I feel the time can be better spent on fixing the things we can fix today. It may seem that not a lot is happening, but there is a lot happening, just not clearly visible and measurable. SCN was moved and that was a big accomplishment, thanks to JJ and other volunteers. Steve's working on the Quest issue. The site design discussions are in progress and will be presented to the board, for the final decision to be made by the SCN users. A new volunteer submission page has been created, but needs a tweak or two, but it is far more comprehensive than it was before and we won't have to have an external site deal with our volunteering information. SCN2 is being worked on and the messes of the past are being cleaned up. Rod is doing a great job with site maintenance. And I've cut back on my work schedule so that I can spend more time on the site. Most of all, what can be done: The site can use some real nips and tucks. The facelife is coming, so to speak, but the site could use some trimming in the content and links areas: Too many links to every which way. More content can be introduced: I'm working on Seazine, but would others like to give suggestions for what content we want to have and producing that content? Forgive me if I have some of my facts wrong and for not recognizing everyone. I hope that I have gotten my point across about what we can do to make the site better today. Patrick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Tue Sep 4 22:08:35 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 22:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well - on the bright side, it's a great way to enhance security. > No users. Lorraine, Our We freely offer telnet access into SCN for all users, which is "insecure" in that passwords aren't encrypted and it's probably a risk to some extent in other ways too. But we don't allow outgoing telnet from SCN to other systems. This makes sesne, basically. So why doesn't incoming FTP (but not outgoing FTP) make equal sense in terms of security considerations? Very few free Web providers allow outgoing connections of any kind, including telnet and FTP, that could be used to compromise other systems. But why not just limit it to incoming FTP? Offering FTP would make a huge positive difference in usability, and it might just gain SCN a sizable and growing cadre of personal site users friendly to SCN, who would then have a much greater chance become more familiar with and involved in SCN itself. That's a great prospect to consider. So why can't we move forward to make it work, and find ways to make a limited inbound FTP capability function as well as our inbound telnet access does for personal users? Offering a usable, standard personal Web site upload capability via FTP could still make a positive difference for SCN, even at this late date. > My point is that I do believe that there are people who would > be interested in SCN if there were some friendly helpers - SCN really needs a regular physical "place," where some of our helpful volunteers can regularly talk with people, not only personal users but nonprofits too. Only ten of the nonprofits who signed up as IPs since Jan 1, 2001 have succeeded so far this year in getting their Web sites up on SCN. That's a dismal percentage, much worse than the 50% IP success rate that we used to have a few years ago. There are still some really unnecessary barriers to IPs suceeding at even their basic account essentials like uploading files to the server. We have some non-standard "horseshoe nail" technical bariers that make this notably more difficult on SCN than at other ISPs. In particular, Operations has consistently refused to link /home/ipname/public_html to /web/ipdir as part of the usual IP setup. You have no idea how many dozens of nonprofits have failed to get their sites up on SCN because of this one simple thing that any decent ISP does for people as a matter of course, to help them succeed when using default settings in FTP programs. With things like this, SCN sets nonprofits up to fail as a matter of course, and Ops won't even listen to people asking them adhere to common indutry practice for this. SCN's IP Coordination program relies on a delay-filled daisy chain of many volunteers whose allegiance is to many separate committee fiefdoms. Operations, for example, will not only not help the IPs, they will not even answer questions from the Help Desk for IPs now, except through a procedure that adds days and weeks (and sometimes an indefinite amount of time) to the IP help process. First, let's say an IP asks you, Lorraine, something technical and you refer them to the Help Desk. So far, so good, right? But the Help Desk (if obeying Ops' new restricted "help" system) can refer the question only to the Ops/Help Desk Liaison. The Ops/Help Desk Liaison then will refer the question to someone, God knows who, on Ops. That person, if he deigns to answer at all (which is far from a certainty), will send the answer (possibly useful, possibly not) back to the Ops/Help Desk Liaison. The Ops/Help Desk Liaison will then send the answer back to the Help Desk. The Help Desk will then send the answer back to the IP. Since the answer might or might not be the answer needed, any followup must (supposedly) follow the same process. This is what comes of letting the most rabidly anti-user and anti-IP people in Operations decide how SCN is to be run, which as you might expect is to run it for their own convenience first and foremost, and let the stupid ignorant nonprofits go RTFM and fuck themselves if they don't know Unix well enough. For whatever reasons, we have added 28 active IPs to our menus this year and lost 41. (Our goal this year was a net gain of 75.) Ten of the 28 new ones signed up this year. The rest signed up last year and were able to get their sites up sometime this year. In short, nonprofit hosting has become a declining area this year, after being a growth area until mid-summer 2000. Reasonably friendly and helpful volunteers being able to sit down at a physical place and explain things in person to IPs would be a tremendous advantage, and might well cancel out some of the IP non-support that goes on so much now. I actually have the time and inclination to do this these days, more so than last winter, and could contribute something now in the evenings, if a suitable "place" were to present itself. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From femme2 at scn.org Tue Sep 4 23:04:10 2001 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rod - I talked (briefly) to folks at Garfield. - They have quite a nice computer lab now - with staff. Laurie Chisholm is the new director - used to be at Miller CC. I think she would welcome some SCN volunteer involvement - at least she was very amenable when she was at Miller (which has pretty crummy equipment and often not working). I don't have much time right now - but would be interested in the future. Also - I think the IMC might be interested. In fact - they got some money from a grant - and now some of the community groups that signed on as a courtesy are scratching their heads and saying, "What the hell can we DO at the IMC?" Stephanie has been rehabbing old computers and installing Linux - don't know if this would be a major problem for using some space at the IMC but maybe worth a try. They have been doing some GREAT work! It's kind of odd that while both the Internet and community- building are based on networking and sharing, SCN seems to be in the cheese-stands-alone mode. But of course I have not been involved for quite a while - this may be a totally false assumption. For anybody interested - the Port of Seattle is in the throes of "privatization" - aka union-busting. I'm doing some volunteer work for LELO - which I had hoped at one time to have on SCN - it's at www.lelo.org - doing major community outreach, mostly to labor. But I see this as a citizen/taxpayer issue and a women's issue as well. The fun-loving bunch who brought us the WTO - and still don't get it. Lorraine * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From life at kilio.com Wed Sep 5 04:51:20 2001 From: life at kilio.com (life) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 07:51:20 -0400 Subject: SCN: Most Recent News about 714X ! NCI Reviewing cancer survivors' case studies ! Message-ID: <150812001935115120304@kilio.com> Missed the recent media coverage of 714X and it's use in the treatment of cancer and other health issues ? See for yourself why the National Cancer Institute (NCI) is currently reviewing 16 cancer survivors' case studies. -See how this non-toxic treatment works to purify the lymphatic system and assists the body's natural defenses; -See why 75000 patients in Japan, Canada and Europe have used 714X; -See why in Canada, physicians can prescribe it under the Emergency Drug Release Program. Just click on the following link ( http://www.cerbe.com ), and get all the information you need to decide. Ask for the media coverage video. Mention Code LR043 when ordering, and Get Free Shipping on your first order! The information is Free! See for yourself! It could change your life or the life of somebody you know... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you want to send informations about NCI Reviewing cancer survivors' case studies to a friend, please click this link: http://php.kilio.com/life/friend.php We believe this e-mail might be helpful to you but if you'd rather not receive future messages about 714X and it's use in the treatment of cancer and other auto-immune ailments, please click this link: http://php.kilio.com/life/remove.php * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Wed Sep 5 09:36:35 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would think it would be worth at least providing a list that forwards to SCNA Members' sites hosted elsewhere. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > Speaking of content... did we quietly disappear commercial pages > > and individual pages? Rather than wait for an answer I'll > > venture my opinion that if we did ban them then that was a > > mistake... > > Doug, > > Personal site hosting could have been very important for SCN > in attracting users, volunteers and suport - a significant > attraction (and maybe it still could be if we radically upgraded > it.). But not as it is being offered now. Sadly, our personal > site hosting is largely moribund because it is so behind the > times and uncompetitive with the choices much better other that > people have. Word of mouth has been very unkind to SCN on this. > Our listing at http://www.scn.org/subscribers mostly hasn't been > updated for quite a while, because almost no users are > interested in new personal site hosting on SCN any more. > > It's so clunky to make and maintain a personal site on SCN > that people, especially those who are new to the Web, know not > to come to SCN for that. Our Operations committee is adamant > that it is impossible to allow our users to use FTP, for Ops' > own reasons. This means that we have essentially thrown away any > chance to catch up in this area, as long as we stick with such a > user-unfriendly system as we have. > > A few small businesses tried SCN and almost all have since > moved elsewhere. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ljbeedle at scn.org Wed Sep 5 09:55:07 2001 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: <200109050008.RAA15236@scn.org> Message-ID: >The question has come up about which web sites to feature and which web sites should be mentioned on our web site. As a topic editor I have tried to create diversity in the various groupings of menu links as well as adding some groups. Especially I have tried to link to the national or state headquarters of groups that are not represented by having an scn homepage as well as to the headquarters of those that do. I do, however, feel that those with scn sites should be our focus. They should not be buried down somewhere many clicks away or under listings that someone may not know to look under. As to highlighting - featuring - sites - I feel that we should only be featuring sites that we host. We have a number of excellent sites in various topics and if we are to survive we need folks besides ourselves to recognize that you can have good web design and graphics here. We should not, in my opinion, feature any sites that do not meet scn guidelines as to lynx accessibility. Lois Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From alboss at home.com Wed Sep 5 12:36:53 2001 From: alboss at home.com (alboss at home.com) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:36:53 -0400 Subject: SCN: Get-on-with-it Year Message-ID: What is this, "The Little Engine That Could, But Just Didn't Feel Like It"? We seem to have a lot of opinions on how to make sure a community network fails. Apparently, most of us agree that the problem is just about everybody else. This is amusing but not very productive (see below). So, can we start a thread upon which we can find some _common ground_ on what users actually want that we actually can and are willing to provide? SCN list traffic lately reminds me of Tom Leher's song, "National Brotherhood Week", which contains (politically incorrect) lyrics such as: Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics And the Catholics hate the Protestants, And the Hindus hate the Moslems, And everybody hates the Jews. and But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week, Lena Horne and Sheriff Clark are dancing cheek to cheek. It's fun to eulogize The people you despise As long as you don't let 'em in your school. (if you're not sufficiently horrified, the complete lyrics are at http://www.dp9.com/cool/hilary/textpoly.htm) With apologies to Mr. Leher (and personalities named below), we have: Oh, Operations hates the Service folks, And the Editors hate the WebAdmin, And the Users hate the System, And everybody hates the Board. But during SCN Get-on-with-it Year, SCN Get-on-with-it Year, JJ, Rich and Mr. Clark are dancing rear to rear. It's fun to critisize The people you despise As long as you don't let 'em FTP. ------------- Whew, am I glad I got that out of my system! Al (Special apologies to JJ, Rich, and Rod, who are either really good sports or are busy either deleting all my accounts, calling attorneys, or reformmatiing all my directories right about now.) -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 13:06:43 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: man pages for rwrap Message-ID: <20010905200643.49909.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Could someone be a dear and send me the man pages for rwrap, or any documentation you have for this fine program? To put it short, the man pages are not available when I telnet into SCN. I need to update the index.html page and rwrap is required. Thanks much, Patrick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 15:03:59 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN sidebar order and organization - input requested Message-ID: <20010905220359.27405.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> SCN is going to be reorganizing the links in the sidebar that appears on each page at SCN. Also, some links should be absorbed into other links. Also, there is the issue of grouping links. Possibly by color. Or simply by spacing. And then there are the buttons. Rod has done a great job of organizing the buttons in recent months, adding, improving, deleting. As you will see, Netsearch no longer exists. It was determined that SCN should be a destination, not a portal to the rest of the world. Yahoo and everyone else can have that job. As for the links, if you look on the front page you will see that we have the following links: "Contribute", "Volunteering for SCN" and "Volunteers". These three can be grouped. We can add "Donors" as well to the group. And rename "Volunteers" to "General Volunteering" (or whatever) to distinguish it from SCN. Or merge Volunteers with Volunteering for SCN. Do we have the buttons we want? Do they need to be renamed? Do the words on the buttons convey what we want to get across - instantly. I wish I could have broken the mail off and took on separate little topics, but everything relates to everything else, buttons to links. How about colors to divide the parts? Or maybe use horizontal rules or simple spacing (and indenting for the subgroups). Patrick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Wed Sep 5 17:33:57 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Get-on-with-it Year In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, alboss at home.com wrote: > [....] > (Special apologies to JJ, Rich, and Rod, who are either really good > sports or are busy either deleting all my accounts, calling attorneys, > or reformmatiing all my directories right about now.) (Okay, I'll handle the reformatting.... :-) === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan at scn.org Thu Sep 6 00:20:27 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 00:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: man pages for rwrap In-Reply-To: <20010905200643.49909.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello owner-webmasters at scn.org (On 09/05/01,1:06pm,you wrote Re: WEB: man... you need to set yourself onto tthe correct "folder" I think I set my PATH variable to ? (I'll have to look it up and mail you the exact info or ask JJ) or do a search with grep to find man pages or man directory and use FULL path name of the file. p> Could someone be a dear and send me the man pages for rwrap, or any p> documentation you have for this fine program? p> p> To put it short, the man pages are not available when I telnet into SCN. p> p> I need to update the index.html page and rwrap is required. p> p> Thanks much, p> Patrick p> p> __________________________________________________ p> Do You Yahoo!? p> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger p> http://im.yahoo.com p> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * p> . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: p> majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: p> unsubscribe webmasters p> Messages posted on this list are available on the Web at: p> http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/webmasters-l/ p> _,--------, .-. \ o / elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.net Tue Sep 4 17:19:57 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.net (jmabel at speakeasy.net) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:19:57 UT Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: SCN Site Redesign Goal Message-ID: <200109050019.f850Jve02336@spidey.speakeasy.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From er-chan at scn.org Thu Sep 6 23:37:11 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: SCN Site Redesign Goal In-Reply-To: <200109050019.f850Jve02336@spidey.speakeasy.net> Message-ID: Thanks for your input; since you are a professional website designer I respect your input. (I thought the gif was a friendly way of saying hey there) To find health info you click on the health tab(really a table element with a background color) when the link is connected to the health page. that is near the top or you search scn from the bottom of the page search engine input. Hello jmabel at speakeasy.net (On 09/05/01,12:19am,you wrote Re: Re: WEB: Re:... > 1) I find the animated GIF annoying. 2) This seems to me to be *less* > useful than our current front page. Currently, it may be clumsy for me > to get at the content SCN hosts. With this, I don't even see how I > would do it. For example, if I'm looking for health-related > information, what do I do? JM > > On Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:21:17 -0700 (PDT), er-chan wrote: > > > > > Please consider the preliminary design(yes the buttons down the left side > > > > do repeat -needs work) at : > > > > http://www.scn.org/~er-chan/scn.html > > > > preliminary design > > > > > > Hello owner-webmasters at scn.org (On 08/26/01,6:44pm,you wrote Re: WEB: Re:... > > > > p> --- er-chan wrote: > > p> I posted to webmasters,webmaster,webmaster, and help at scn.org so that I would > > p> have all volunteers commenting on the logos. I wanted to make sure all > > p> volunteers were aware of the designs as many of the volunteers have been with > > p> SCN for quite awhile and do a lot of work and it is important that they have a > > p> say before the board decides on a few logos and site designs. > > p> > > p> I did not intend on having people disagree, but having them putting in their > > p> two cents. > > p> > > p> After the board decides on a few logos and designs, then it will be upen to > > p> public discussion. > > p> > > p> Patrick > > p> > > > > _,--------, .-. \ o / > > elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| > > `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o > > _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe webmasters > > Messages posted on this list are available on the Web at: > > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/webmasters-l/ > _,--------, .-. \ o / elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Sat Sep 8 13:43:00 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree with these comments. Or am I too late, just got back from 2 weeks in Australia where even the kangaroos have websites. Irene On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > > Since flaming is not a problem for you, Patrick, I'll flame away... :-) > > Basically I have two comments -- > > The first is that I think the current logo is fine. Perhaps clean it up a > bit, fine-tune, etc. SCN currently has a logo that is distinctive and has > been identified with our efforts over the years. It has been used in > presentations to large audiences both in the states and elsewhere and has > been shown in print in many venues. I think that changing the logo -- > especially as I fear to make it more dot-commy, more space-age, or > whatever by "modernizing" it and taking any edge it might have off is > really a bad idea. (It reminds me a bit of my [five-year] *old* essay on > "how to kill community networks - > http://www.scn.org/commnet/kill-commnets.html. We're NOT the phone > company searching for a logo that looks coolest, we're a community network > system with a set of idealistic principles > (http://www.scn.org/commnet/principles.html) that are still critical (and > probably always will be). > > The second is that this redesign is NOT what we need at the moment. If > anybody has taken a look at our web page this YEAR they'll know what I'm > talking about. Yes, it has been nearly a year since there was any sort of > content on our front page. It looks (and has for months and months!!!) > like the "message of the day" on a unix dialup system. When I think of all > the squandered opportunity here I feel almost sick. This site gets > thousands and thousands of hits every month and it has almost always been > some message like "SCN is moving in 3 months" or "SCN now back on line." > > We had an excellent model almost all of last year -- see > http://www.scn.org/week/ -- but that went away. I don't know if it was > internal politics but it was a very palpable NET LOSS for SCN and what > we're trying to accomplish with SCN. > > I am sorry for *flaming* here but I have written probably 10 letters to > the board and to others and to the best of my knowledge I have never > received any feedback on this issue. > > Redesign, schmedesign, let's put some CONTENT on our front page!!!! > > -- Doug > > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, patrick wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > This message was originally posted to the webmasters and webeditors email > > lists. JJ brought it to my attention that I should post the message about the > > site and logo redesign to this list. I'm new to the list as of 5 minutes ago. > > > > SCN is planning on updating the site to make it look more professional. > > > > This is the goal for the site redesign communicated to me by Ti Locke: > > > > The goal is have the board vote on two or three possibilities for both a logo > > and a site redesign and then ask SCN users to comment. Meeting is 9/13, with > > comment period of say, two weeks...with new logo and site design going up first > > week in October. That would put Ti right on the timeline for both > > grantwriting...and having web mail up and running. > > > > Patrick > > SCN Web Team Coordinator/Webmaster > > > > P.S. Did I leave anyone out of the loop? > > > > P.P.S. If you have logo ideas, sketches, complaints, accolades, please email > > them to this email address and I will collate them and let the board see them. > > Everyone's input is important. We need to hear how you feel about what the logo > > should express, what colors we may want to use for the site, type of layout. So > > give us your ideas. > > > > Don't worry about flaming me. It's been a cooler than normal summer and I wear > > virtual asbestos. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Sat Sep 8 13:45:14 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN site and logo redesign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dip it in chocolate? Definitely agreeable, Irene On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Lois Beedle wrote: > As to the menu layout - it needs a lot of work. Rod mentioned finding the > astromy club - well try finding the vintage telephone equipment museum. > Or any of the other pages I edit - University Christian Church, Telephone > Pioneers. We made an easy to get around menu very difficult. > I was telephoned just last week by some folks trying to find the pioneer > page - and they were amazed at the varity of groups we host - seen only by > really careful navigation. > The spiritual menu is so hard to find your way around I have trouble and I > am the menu keeper. > Lois > > Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ccwby5r56 at msn.com Sun Sep 9 10:01:30 2001 From: ccwby5r56 at msn.com (ccwby5r56 at msn.com) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 12:01:30 -0500 Subject: SCN: Cable Converter/Descrambler! Message-ID: <0000537a2dee$00005223$0000052d@> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bn890 at scn.org Tue Sep 11 18:16:52 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: New York City Message-ID: Hello everyone, As most of you know I am a New Yorker. Today my city was destroyed. I lived 3 blocks away from the World Trade Center, and my daughter still lives there. She had the dubious distinction of watching the entire catastrophe from her bedroom windows where she was home from work sick. She normally works at #5 World Trade, my son-in-law has classes right across the street - classes were cancelled after the first explosion. the builing I lived in, 80 North Moore Street, has been converted into a temporary mortuary. I don't know what any of us can do to help but I do know that there is a call out for Blood Donors. Please contribute if you are able. I also do not know if there are going to be any calls for financial help - probably will happen within the next few days. If I have missed anyone, please pass this message on. Thank you, Irene Mogol Not feeling much like 'The Wicked Witch' * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From buddrice at juno.com Tue Sep 11 21:35:05 2001 From: buddrice at juno.com (Budd Rice) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:35:05 -0700 Subject: SCN: Re: EMT: New York City Message-ID: <20010911.213505.-2088203.0.buddrice@juno.com> Irene, Thankfully your loved ones are safe. The Red Cross is asking for donations. God Bless America. Budd On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Irene Mogol writes: > Hello everyone, > > As most of you know I am a New Yorker. Today my city was destroyed. > I > lived 3 blocks away from the World Trade Center, and my daughter > still > lives there. She had the dubious distinction of watching the > entire > catastrophe from her bedroom windows where she was home from work > sick. > She normally works at #5 World Trade, my son-in-law has classes > right > across the street - classes were cancelled after the first > explosion. > > the builing I lived in, 80 North Moore Street, has been converted > into a > temporary mortuary. > > I don't know what any of us can do to help but I do know that there > is a > call out for Blood Donors. Please contribute if you are able. I > also do > not know if there are going to be any calls for financial help - > probably > will happen within the next few days. > > If I have missed anyone, please pass this message on. > > Thank you, > > Irene Mogol > Not feeling much like 'The Wicked Witch' > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * > * * > This list is for communication between SCN e-mail trainers > regarding > *only* SCN E-mail Training (EMT) related topics. Please use your > best > judgment in this matter. Discussion of other SCN related topics can > be > done on the list . Thanks for your cooperation. > END > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Wed Sep 12 03:58:15 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 03:58:15 -0700 Subject: SCN: [Fwd: FC: Website for attack survivors created; mailing list for DC news] Message-ID: <3B9F3FC7.3367A6D9@blarg.net> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: FC: Website for attack survivors created; mailing list for DC news Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:01:50 -0400 From: Declan McCullagh Reply-To: declan at well.com To: politech at politechbot.com CC: andrews at ltinet.net ******** From: "Andrew Staples" Subject: Off topic: check in for WTC, Pentagon survivors Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:18:47 -0700 A web site has been set up where survivors of today's terrorist activities can post word a brief word that they are okay: http://www.shunn.net/okay/ If you care to publicize this, it may save some people some heartache. ******** From: Andy Carvin To: "'Declan McCullagh '" Subject: listserv set up to discuss today's attack Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:43:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi Declan.. I just wanted to let you know I've set up a listserv for people who want to discuss today's tragic events... Hope you are well, Andy Carvin Benton Foundation acarvin at benton.org I just wanted to give a quick report from downtown DC. Most of us at the Benton Foundation evacuated our building, which is at 18th and K street, three or four blocks from the white house. We received word of the attacks on the World Trade center building around 9am, having to rely on portable radios since our Internet connection froze as people tried to find more information. The majority of Benton staff were out of the building by 10am. The streets are filled with people briskly walking away from downtown, trying to get their cell phones to work. It's not a panic situation by any means - just lots of people determined to get the hell out of there. Some people are clearly shaken, and are being comforted by friends and strangers alike. The streets are completely jammed with cars as people try to get out of the city. Since lots of us at our office usually take the metro to work (which has been shut down, along with all other commuter trains), those of us who lived within walking distance offered to bring home other people who would be stranded downtown. We're now back at my Dupont Circle apartment, two miles due north of the Pentagon. We can't see smoke from our balcony, which is surprising considering the extent of the damage we've seen on TV so far. I've set up a listserv, sept11info, for people wanting to talk about today's attack. You can join the list by going to this address: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sept11info or by sending an email to sept11info-subscribe at yahoogroups.com. Please feel free to pass on this information. I will do my best to report on any news here in DC, but let us all hope and pray that the worst is over now. Our thoughts and prayers are with everyone who's being affected by this insanity.... Andy Carvin Benton Foundation acarvin at benton.org ******** ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Wed Sep 12 13:39:41 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This may be a resolved issue but I have to say that I don't see what is gained by forbidding the highlighting of sites that aren't on SCN. Yes we do have excellent sites but there are many good reasons to highlight other sites as well. -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Lois Beedle wrote: > >The question has come up about which web sites to feature > and which web sites should be mentioned on our web site. > > As a topic editor I have tried to create diversity in the various > groupings of menu links as well as adding some groups. Especially I have > tried to link to the national or state headquarters of groups that are not > represented by having an scn homepage as well as to the headquarters of > those that do. I do, however, feel that those with scn sites should be > our focus. They should not be buried down somewhere many clicks away or > under listings that someone may not know to look under. > > As to highlighting - featuring - sites - I feel that we should only be > featuring sites that we host. We have a number of excellent sites in > various topics and if we are to survive we need folks besides ourselves to > recognize that you can have good web design and graphics here. We should > not, in my opinion, feature any sites that do not meet scn guidelines as > to lynx accessibility. > > Lois > > Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From scoth at scn.org Wed Sep 12 16:12:52 2001 From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on scn.org) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:12:52 -0700 Subject: SCN: In the midst of tragedy, please help keep the peace Message-ID: <007301c13be4$a4580a20$028cc5ce@mshome.net> Howdy, Since yesterday I have made a friend in Egypt. He's of Palestinian descent, and it's been good to exchange opinions with him about the world today (in the last 24 hours and before that). I promised him to help Moslems here in the US in the aftermath of our tragedies. Right now, in our country, there is so much anger about what has happened. I'm angry, too, of course. I know, however, that most people, of all religions and ethnic backgrounds, are peaceful and caring people. There are those among us, however, who are now directing their anger and their hatred at people of Arab descent or who are practicing Moslems. Threatening phone calls and now even attacks on mosques are taking place, yet little has been said by anyone asking Americans to keep their heads. Most of us don't need such a reminder, but there are a few who do. They need to be told, in no uncertain terms, that this is wrong. Very qualified, very professional, very dedicated people around the country and around the world are working to find out who was behind this attack. We must let them do their jobs, and we must let all American citizens and residents carry on with their lives after this experience. Remember that the people who died yesterday were from many religions (and some from no religion at all). Let us NOT dishonor their memories by pointing our anger at innocent people who fit some mold. Respectfully, Scot Harkins -- Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) Greenbank, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 2849 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ttrim at scn.org Wed Sep 12 17:19:13 2001 From: ttrim at scn.org (Terry Trimingham) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Doug, In my opinion, we need to promote SCN and all the cool stuff it does. For that reason, I think we should concentrate on SCN sites. It is not that there isn't anything else good out there, it is just that we need to beat our own drum as much as we can. At least, that is my take on things. I think every little bit helps, SCN does not get as much publicity or credit as it should! I also happen to agree with Lois about not wanting to promote sites that our basic users can't even access because they don't follow SCN web guidelines. That just doesn't make sense. I know a few folks that still only use lynx, SCN has always been kind to lynx users. Just my two cents, Terry On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > > This may be a resolved issue but I have to say that I don't > see what is gained by forbidding the highlighting of sites > that aren't on SCN. Yes we do have excellent sites but > there are many good reasons to highlight other sites as well. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From epery5r56 at juno.com Wed Sep 12 13:44:06 2001 From: epery5r56 at juno.com (epery5r56 at juno.com) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:44:06 -0500 Subject: SCN: Be invisible to police! Right Now! Message-ID: <000020d406db$0000181e$000019f3@> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From douglas at scn.org Wed Sep 12 17:39:31 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree almost entirely with both of you. My feeling is that the local sites should get notice in 3 out of 4 cases. IF we can highlight other sites (that are consonant with our mission) than we are (1) more useful to people; (2) building community; (3) not open to charges of exclusivity; (4) sticking to our principles and mission. Thanks!! --- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Terry Trimingham wrote: > Doug, > > In my opinion, we need to promote SCN and all the cool stuff it does. For > that reason, I think we should concentrate on SCN sites. It is not that > there isn't anything else good out there, it is just that we need to beat > our own drum as much as we can. > > At least, that is my take on things. I think every little bit helps, SCN > does not get as much publicity or credit as it should! > > I also happen to agree with Lois about not wanting to promote sites that > our basic users can't even access because they don't follow SCN web > guidelines. That just doesn't make sense. I know a few folks that still > only use lynx, SCN has always been kind to lynx users. > > Just my two cents, > Terry > > On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > This may be a resolved issue but I have to say that I don't > > see what is gained by forbidding the highlighting of sites > > that aren't on SCN. Yes we do have excellent sites but > > there are many good reasons to highlight other sites as well. > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Wed Sep 12 17:42:59 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: In the midst of tragedy, please help keep the peace In-Reply-To: <007301c13be4$a4580a20$028cc5ce@mshome.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Scot Harkins on scn.org wrote: Bravo, Scot! Important words: > There are those among us, however, who are now directing their anger and > their hatred at people of Arab descent or who are practicing Moslems. > Threatening phone calls and now even attacks on mosques are taking place, > yet little has been said by anyone asking Americans to keep their heads. > > Most of us don't need such a reminder, but there are a few who do. They > need to be told, in no uncertain terms, that this is wrong. Yesterday, a few hours after the attacks, I received an email sent out by the CEO of a software company, CoffeeCup Software, http://www.coffeecup.com/ which has me on their mailing list. In it he advocated "destroying" any country found to be responsible. I just checked their web site, and found that he has the same message posted there. This fellow needs a reminder and I just sent the following email to him: From kenapple at u.washington.edu Wed Sep 12 17:21:27 2001 From: kenapple at u.washington.edu (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTC email Message-ID: Sir - Yesterday you sent a mass email to people on your Coffee Cup software list, regarding the destruction of the World Trade Center. I see today that you have essentially the same opinions posted on your web site: >"Terrorist Attacks on the USA... "These people (murdered >by cowards) are our brothers. As brothers we can beat up on >each other, however if you touch my brother you have to bear >the wrath of me !" We think that whoever is found >responsible for this should pay the ultimate price. > >***************** >If any country is found responsible, that country should be destroyed. If >it is a terrorist organization, it should be destroyed. >****************** > >We pray for the innocent civilians that are the victims of this >attack. May God bless and be with you all. If you decide to >comment, whether you agree with our CEO or not, remember that >thousands of innocent Mothers, Fathers, and Children died in this >tragedy." I agree that this a terrible tragedy and that thousands of innocent mothers, fathers, and children died. And you seem to want to compound the tragedy by destroying mothers, fathers, and children in some other country if their leaders are found to have been responsible, or if their leaders harbored a terrorist group?!! For shame! That makes you no better than the WTC terrorists! The US should do everything possible to identify the _specific_ individuals and groups that were responsible and make every effort to bring them to justice. We should NOT go beyond that to blanket destruction of a whole country in revenge, thus escalating the level of violence in this world. I can understand that you are justifiably outraged by the attacks of yesterday. However, I still find your comments offensive and only serving to inflame the situation. For that reason, I now have no intention of purchasing your software or ever doing business with your company. Please remove me from your email list. Kenneth Applegate Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan at scn.org Wed Sep 12 21:21:08 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re:re evaluate ethics: link suggestion - Seattle Red Cross In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I propose we purge all our websites of links to hate groups. Legitimate organizations who wish to pursue peace without condeming Semitic people as a whole should be linked to. I am reminded of all the wonderful Arab,Egyptian, Iranian, Afgani people I have known , been invited to their homes, and my children played with theirs. I do not condemn all Semites but urge that those people who are at fault be eliminated. In the past various groups wishing to fight hate groups have been denied links on our web sites with such statements as "these are not local groups" - rethink that please and the webmaster's very terse replies to Israeli groups seeking links should be re-examined by a committee of more than one. Hello owner-webeditors at scn.org (On 09/12/01,1:20am,you wrote Re: Re: link... RC> > http://www.seattleredcross.org/ RC> RC> Lee, RC> RC> The Seattle Red Cross and the Puget Sound Blood Center sites RC> and information are on the What's New page. RC> RC> Rod Clark RC> RC> RC> RC> RC> _,--------, .-. \ o / elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Wed Sep 12 21:48:47 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re:re evaluate ethics: link suggestion - Seattle Red Cross In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Elaine Chan wrote: > I propose we purge all our websites of links to hate groups. Elaine, The only complaint that I can recall right now about a "hate group" that SCN hosts was about the Irish Northern Aid Committee. SCN still hosts it, regardless of the validity of that complaint in the minds of many people on the other side of that issue. Another complaint that I recall, from last year, was about a homosexual group. Again, we didn't remove the link because of the complaint. > I do not condemn all Semites but urge that those people who > are at fault be eliminated. Could you please clarify what you are talking about? > In the past various groups wishing to fight hate groups have > been denied links on our web sites with such statements as > "these are not local groups" - rethink that please and the > webmaster's very terse replies to Israeli groups seeking links > should be re-examined by a committee of more than one. The great majority of non-local groups have got that same response. At the moment, I can't remember any Israeli groups who have requested links. If this is a real question and not a canard, then we can look for their requests, and any replies to them, in the webmaster and webeditors archives. Which Israeli groups were they? Rod Clark webeditors at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From davidb at scn.org Wed Sep 12 22:03:06 2001 From: davidb at scn.org (David Barts) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:03:06 -0700 Subject: SCN: Fwd: On behalf of all who died today (fwd) Message-ID: <20010912220305.B22786@scn.scn.org> Forwarded from a friend. I'm not a complete pacifist who believes in turning the other cheek, but still I see a lot in this I agree with, especially given the current mood in favor of retaliation (as opposed to defensive and preventative measures, which would have to include a good deal of asking unpleasant "why would someone feel motivated to do this?" type questions) I sense in the nation. > Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 02:56:26 -0600 > To: (Recipient list suppressed) > From: Damian Nash > Subject: On behalf of all who died today > > Dear friends: > > On behalf of all who died today > I would like to make a difference: > I want to make the world a better place > For their loved ones and their children. > > Tonight we lie restless in our beds > Our hearts and souls ache > As they try to stretch around > The incomprehensibly huge tragedy > That just crashed down on all of us > Delivered in passenger jets. > > All of us are driven to know "why?" > Watching news reports, scanning Internet headlines > Looking for any clue that will make sense > Out of something so senseless > That will satisfy a deep, disturbing yearning > And fill a numb, empty place in our minds > Where the Trade Towers used to stand. > > Here is one little part of the answer, > Please hear it, add to it, pass it along. > > I send this with the kind of compassion > That appears briefly after a tragedy > As we all work together, as we give blood, food > Whatever we can offer > For others we have never met. > > I mail this to you with the hope > That you will make something with these words > For the children and the loved ones > Of all the beautiful human beings > That perished today in the rubble and the flames. > > As we sit in front of our television screens > Or newspapers, radio, the internet > Numbed, sickened, enraged, grieving > We have every reason as a nation > To strike back > To find those responsible, > To punish and destroy. > > No one in the world would blame the United States > For avenging such a heinous act: > It is our right to revenge > And we certainly have the power. > The world is waiting and watching for our response. > We are the most powerful nation on earth > We are about to set an example > Of international relations in the new millenium. > > In this moment > We face an opportunity > As never before in history > To change the way of the world > And put an end to this kind of tragedy > Forever. > > To do this we must all open our eyes together > We must wake up from the nightmare > And bravely face our true enemy > The Beast who wants us to keep sleeping. > > Our enemy is not a millionaire oil tycoon > A military dictator, a country, a religion, an ideology > Or this month's political scapegoat. > > Our true enemy is the Cycle of Pain and Suffering > And all of us in America > Are facing the enemy today > In a way we have never faced it before. > > Many of us are eager to avenge our suffering > By inflicting more pain on anyone presumed guilty > By feeding the flames, following carnage with carnage > Taking an eye for an eye, a head for a head. > > In this way we win a battle and lose a war > While the true enemy of humanity, > The Beast that feeds on our pain and suffering, > Grows larger and stronger. > > The people who carried out this incomprehensible act of > terrorism > Must have already endured a level of suffering incomprehensible > to us > A kind of pain that twisted the humanity out of their souls > And left them unable to resist a hideous, twisted plot. > > Suffering loves to create more Suffering > And these men wanted us to glimpse the hell they lived in > In their neighborhoods, in their countries, > In the privacy of their tortured souls and minds. > So they passed the Beast from their shoulders to ours > By sacrificing their lives > And the lives of our loved ones > > If we decide to hit the suffering back into their court > Do we win a battle and lose the war? > > By temporarily satisfying our need for vengeance > By dealing out our own version of justice > Do we really restore the balance or just push the pendulum > harder? > Do we improve the world for our children? > Or do we put them in line for the next retaliation? > The next escalation? > The next, larger, more hideous act of terrorism? > Do we expose those we love to the risk of something even worse? > > When I look for any kind of solution, the only way I can see > That we can ever be truly victorious over terrorism > Is to discover and destroy the sources of terrorism: > Poverty, ignorance, oppression, injustice, disease and the > absence of hope. > Let us work together to destroy its roots everywhere on the > planet. > Starting in our own backyards. > > On behalf of all who died today > So that they will not die in vain > I ask my friends and the leaders of the US > To ask a deeper kind of "why?" > To move beyond the posture of victim and outraged reaction > To adopt a conscious response that will banish this kind of > horror > From the face of the planet > Forever. > > Instead of asking "why?" to satisfy our hunger for answers > Let us ask that same question to mend what is broken in the > world. > Instead of asking "who were these men?" to scapegoat and punish > Let us ask that same question to learn about the > incomprehensible pain that > destroyed them. > Instead of looking for causes that we ultimately can't control > and must fear > Let us look for the ways we contribute to the Cycle of Pain and > Suffering > And have the courage to change what we can. > > Why did these men blaming the US for their suffering? > Why did they target these buildings? What did they hope to > accomplish? > Were they attempting to ease their own suffering, or the > suffering of others > By taking such extreme, merciless methods? > Are they all completely insane, > or is there some morsel of truth that gave birth to their > insane plot? > > Only by asking these questions > And facing the answers with strength and humility > Can we ever escape the nightmare of suffering > That has haunted human history. > > By seeing how our way of life promotes suffering elsewhere on > the planet > And by choosing to act differently for our sake and theirs -- > This is the way we can make sure that the children of these > terrorists > Are freed from the nightmarish kind of world that produced > their parents > And that drove them to such unthinkable levels of desperation. > > When that happens, > When the US stands humbly among the other nations of the world > Committed to making life better for everyone, everywhere, > Using our freedom, knowledge and power for everyone's benefit, > Only then can the war on terrorism be won. > > If we ever to evolve as a human race > We must learn to see our only real war as the war on suffering > And realize it can never be won with bombs, guns > Tighter security measures or hijacked airplanes -- > With violence and a tighter fist suffering can only be > perpetuated. > > The only way to win this war, > The only way to stop the madness, > Is by listening, truly listening to others, > And especially those we see as enemies, > Asking how we are contributing to their suffering > And doing whatever we can do to alleviate each other's pain. > > To win this war > Individuals must choose to fight suffering, not other people -- > And so must and nations and corporations. > > On behalf of all who died today > I would like to make a difference: > I want to make the world a better place > For their loved ones and their children. > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Please forward this message to all you love > (Amend it as you feel compelled) > And do whatever you can do, today > To ease the suffering on this planet > For yourself and everyone around you. > ===== Please visit my website! http://www.geocities.com/kayoss00/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com -- David W. Barts (davidb at scn.org) / http://www.scn.org/~davidb "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy." -- Wendell Berry * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Thu Sep 13 08:46:31 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Terry Trimingham wrote: > In my opinion, we need to promote SCN and all the cool stuff > it does. Terry, Which "cool stuff" do people (that is, the general public) really think of, when they think of SCN? Two of the areas that people considered the "coolest" (which is to say, they were areas of SCN that demonstrably grew in popularity during 2000) were Web hosting for nonprofits and our growing audience for the variety of local information offered on the SCN home page. Unfortunately, both of those have become declining areas this year. Our text-only dialup is used less and less. Few people use SCN for personal Web sites because it's so difficult compared to other choices. So our "cool" factor rests on fewer distinctions these days than it might. But we do still have one other cool thing - the Community menus that embrace a wide range of people's local interests and concerns. SCN is well known for that, and it has a lot to do with why people might still think SCN is "cool," even though practically everything else about SCN has lost any semblance of leadership in its field. The Community menus and the matching focus of the 2000-era SCN home page were the two things that the Seattle Times cited when it included SCN as an "essential" Seattle site in its survey of the 100 most essential Web sites in the summer of 2000. The new leadership of SCN did away with one of those sucesses, and now I hear people proposing to do away with the other and more important one, the Community menus. Shouldn't we try to keep a sense of our connection to the whole city, and realize that that's what has attracted most of the good regard that people have for SCN? > For that reason, I think we should concentrate on SCN sites. > It is not that there isn't anything else good out there, it is > just that we need to beat our own drum as much as we can. That's a recipe for limiting our audience to a small number of people. That's like KING 5 not mentioning any community issues except from those organizations hosted on hometeamcommunity.com. For any media site with an overall community purpose to do that is really counterproductive, both in terms of attracting a sizable audience and in terms of reaching out to people who haven't historically had Web sites on SCN - such as the black community and others who need to be included in whatever dialog, communications and public understanding we hope to promote in a more effective way among people in Seattle. > I also happen to agree with Lois about not wanting to promote > sites that our basic users can't even access because they > don't follow SCN web guidelines. That just doesn't make sense. > I know a few folks that still only use lynx, SCN has always > been kind to lynx users. SCN's own pages are accessible in Lynx, and always should be. But only a fraction of a percent of our site's viewers use Lynx. We can't simply ignore most of the Internet just because the only browser that SCN provides is so obsolete that almost no one uses it anymore. Even people who use SCN's Lynx can go to a library to see the many local sites on our menus as they are intended to be seen. It is the information content of Seattle area sites, not their technical use of certain HTML tags, that has guided content selection for SCN's menus and for the home page for the past several years. It's harmful to the wider interests of people throughout our city to take such a step backwards as to limit people's knowledge to a small amount of content based on outdated technical grounds. Rod Clark webeditors@#scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From scoth at scn.org Thu Sep 13 09:19:22 2001 From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on scn.org) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:19:22 -0700 Subject: SCN: websites to feature References: Message-ID: <008d01c13c6f$dfad5680$028cc5ce@mshome.net> I tend towards the inclusive attitude for links, even external links that may not follow our web design standards. Lynx may seem out of date but it's actually a gateway to broad usability. We are one of the few Webster _in the world_ that can be browsed by visually impaired users with browser devices that render web pages to Braille or that navigate sites in visually simple ways. I don't know that we are actually pursuing the ADA standards, but the fact that we are both a community resource and an accessible resource is unique. The web has exploded as a world full of eye-candy, which only works for those with eyes that can see. Those few sites trying to address ADA standards feature either a low-graphic version of their site or actually seek to detect the remote browser and load browser-targeted pages. Each of these requires parallel site development. Keeping a focus on simple design standards make the pages easier to browse for all users. In 20 years the majority of the people in our country will be over 65 years old. How many of them will appreciate our continuing efforts and the efforts of others to make the information world easier to use? Scot -- Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) Greenbank, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Thu Sep 13 09:27:31 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: A Message from the Global South by Saskia Sassen Message-ID: <200109131627.JAA18474@scn.org> This article to me is both inspiring and a wake-up call. America, and the rest of the developed world, is not autonomous and independent from everybody else. People have talked about bombing Afghanistan back to the stone age... It's there already... -- Doug --------------------- A Message From the Global South by Saskia Sassen Published on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 in the Guardian of London http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0912-04.htm Yesterday's attack brings home the fact that we cannot hide behind our peace and prosperity. The evidence has been growing but our leaders did not want to see it. The horrors of wars and deaths far away in the global south do not register. But missile shields cannot protect us. Powerful states cannot fully escape bricolage terrorism, nail bombs, elementary nuclear devices, and homemade biological weapons. The growth of debt and unemployment, and the decline of traditional economic sectors, has fed an illegal trade in people directed at the rich countries. The diseases and pests of the global south are now in the global north as well: TB is back in the US and the UK, the encephalitis-producing Nile mosquito has arrived for the first time in the north. As governments become poorer they depend more on the remittances of immigrants in the north and have little interest in managing emigration and illegal trafficking. The pressures to be competitive make governments in poor countries cut their health, education and social budgets, further delaying development and stimulating emigration. The rising debt, poverty, and disease in the south are beginning to reach deep into rich countries in the north. We can no longer turn our backs on this misery. If we dislike humanitarian reasons for addressing these issues, we should at least be motivated by self-interest. We must now accept that markets cannot take care of everything. Governments will have to govern more. But we cannot return to the old system of countries surrounding themselves with protective walls. It will take genuine multilateralism and internationalism; radical innovations and new forms of collaboration with civil society and supranational institutions. The violence of hunger and poverty; the destruction of once fertile lands; the oppression of weaker states by highly militarized ones; persecution - all these feed a complex, slow but relentless movement towards the north. The north creates much of the damage and the north has the resources to redress some of it. Part of the challenge is actually to recognize the interconnectedness of forms of violence that we do not view as being connected or even as forms of violence. We are suffering from a translation problem. The language of poverty and misery is unclear and uncomfortable. The language of yesterday's attacks is clear. There are two problems in particular that must be addressed: the debt trap and immigration. The debt trap is far more significant than many in the north understand. The focus is always on the amounts of the debts, which are a small fraction of the overall global capital market, now estimated at about 83 trillion dollars. But the debt trap will eventually ensnare the rich countries through the increase in illegal trafficking in people, in drugs, in arms, through the re-emergence of diseases we had thought were under control and through the further devastation of our fragile eco-system. The debt trap is now entangling more countries and it has reached middle income countries. There are now about 50 countries that are hyper-indebted and unable to redress the situation. It is no longer a matter of loan repayment but a fundamental new structural condition. What is often overlooked or even unknown is that many of those debts are far more extreme than those that were considered as unmanageable levels of debt in the Latin American crisis of the 80s. Debt to GNP ratios are especially high in Africa, where they stood at 123%, compared with 42% in Latin America and 28% in Asia. The IMF asks HIPCs to pay 20-25% of their export earnings toward debt service. In contrast, in 1953 the Allies canceled 80% of Germany's war debt and only insisted on 3-5% of export earnings debt service. These are the terms asked from Central Europe after Communism. What can be done to pull these countries out of the trap? Poor countries need to import goods and the West will only accept payment in dollars or other high value currencies. This produces a trap that reproduces itself endlessly. One of the few solutions to neutralize the trap is to allow countries to pay in their own currencies, which would enable them to import needed goods for development and, importantly, eventually strengthen their currencies. =46ew poor countries can avoid trade deficits - of 93 low and moderate income countries, only 11 had trade surpluses in the year 2000. These countries would like to export more, as is shown by the recent setting up of a new African Trade Insurance Agency supporting exports to, from and within Africa. Such specialized and focused efforts are promising. Most countries in the south are heavily dependent on imports of oil, food, and manufactured goods. They need loans, and once they have debts, interest payments and other debt servicing costs escalate rapidly and their currencies are likely to devalue further. Borrowing in the leading foreign currencies is a trap. The government debts of poor countries, and increasingly of middle-income countries as well, need to be taken out of the global capital markets and placed in the domain of the interstate system. J M Keynes proposed this in the 40s when the IMF was created. And the IMF went in this direction with its plan to provide early financing before a crisis, rather than bailing out rich countries' investors. The second great problem in immigration and illegal trafficking in people. The growth of debt and its attendant economic griefs have created whole new migrations. As the rich economies become richer, they become more desirable places to be and have to raise their walls to keep immigrants and refugees out. So they actually encourage the illegal trade in people. We may think that the debt and growing poverty in the south have nothing to do with the violence in New York and Washington. But they do. The attacks are a language of last resort: the oppressed and persecuted have used many languages to reach us so far, but we seem unable to translate the meaning. So a few have taken the personal responsibility to speak in a language that needs no translation. An updated version of Saskia Sassen's book, The Global City, is published by Princeton University Press. Guardian Newspapers Limited 2001 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Sep 13 11:06:43 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010913180643.94248.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> I can't see how community menus could, or would, be removed. That is like taking the tires off of the car you want to drive everyday. Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > Terry Trimingham wrote: > > In my opinion, we need to promote SCN and all the cool stuff > > it does. > > Terry, > > Which "cool stuff" do people (that is, the general public) > really think of, when they think of SCN? > > Two of the areas that people considered the "coolest" (which > is to say, they were areas of SCN that demonstrably grew in > popularity during 2000) were Web hosting for nonprofits and our > growing audience for the variety of local information offered on > the SCN home page. > > Unfortunately, both of those have become declining areas this > year. Our text-only dialup is used less and less. Few people use > SCN for personal Web sites because it's so difficult compared to > other choices. So our "cool" factor rests on fewer distinctions > these days than it might. > > But we do still have one other cool thing - the Community > menus that embrace a wide range of people's local interests and > concerns. SCN is well known for that, and it has a lot to do > with why people might still think SCN is "cool," even though > practically everything else about SCN has lost any semblance of > leadership in its field. The Community menus and the matching > focus of the 2000-era SCN home page were the two things that the > Seattle Times cited when it included SCN as an "essential" > Seattle site in its survey of the 100 most essential Web sites > in the summer of 2000. > > The new leadership of SCN did away with one of those > sucesses, and now I hear people proposing to do away with the > other and more important one, the Community menus. Shouldn't we > try to keep a sense of our connection to the whole city, and > realize that that's what has attracted most of the good regard > that people have for SCN? > > > For that reason, I think we should concentrate on SCN sites. > > It is not that there isn't anything else good out there, it is > > just that we need to beat our own drum as much as we can. > > That's a recipe for limiting our audience to a small number > of people. That's like KING 5 not mentioning any community > issues except from those organizations hosted on > hometeamcommunity.com. For any media site with an overall > community purpose to do that is really counterproductive, both > in terms of attracting a sizable audience and in terms of > reaching out to people who haven't historically had Web sites on > SCN - such as the black community and others who need to be > included in whatever dialog, communications and public > understanding we hope to promote in a more effective way among > people in Seattle. > > > I also happen to agree with Lois about not wanting to promote > > sites that our basic users can't even access because they > > don't follow SCN web guidelines. That just doesn't make sense. > > I know a few folks that still only use lynx, SCN has always > > been kind to lynx users. > > SCN's own pages are accessible in Lynx, and always should be. > But only a fraction of a percent of our site's viewers use Lynx. > We can't simply ignore most of the Internet just because the > only browser that SCN provides is so obsolete that almost no one > uses it anymore. Even people who use SCN's Lynx can go to a > library to see the many local sites on our menus as they are > intended to be seen. > > It is the information content of Seattle area sites, not > their technical use of certain HTML tags, that has guided > content selection for SCN's menus and for the home page for the > past several years. It's harmful to the wider interests of > people throughout our city to take such a step backwards as to > limit people's knowledge to a small amount of content based on > outdated technical grounds. > > Rod Clark > webeditors@#scn.org > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Sep 13 12:24:31 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010913192431.28761.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, it seems that the mission of SCN is to serve the community, the local community. The organizations who want hosting on SCN and those who want to be listed on SCN are the users. The other users of the community are those who want to find such local community resources on SCN. SCN has some very neat sites hosted and listed. Who would have known that there was a sundial web site? I can go to SCN, browse, and find a site on sundials, print out the site and visit sundials in the area that are open for public display. SCN is a nice place to go to. A nice starting point for local events and organizations and information. Seattle Insider is nice, but it feels so corporate, so sterile, as if there is no personal touch to it. The same goes for other local directory sites. SCN has a real personal touch to it that is quite evident. There is nothing like it. You can see volunteers' fingerprints all over it, and that makes all the difference. Patrick As a note: If SCN were to only feature sites that were only hosted on SCN, I may think it was being exclusive and think twice about going there. If I have in mind that SCN is democratic to all listed and hosted sites, then that makes a positive difference with me. --- Rod Clark wrote: > Terry Trimingham wrote: > > In my opinion, we need to promote SCN and all the cool stuff > > it does. > > Terry, > > Which "cool stuff" do people (that is, the general public) > really think of, when they think of SCN? > > Two of the areas that people considered the "coolest" (which > is to say, they were areas of SCN that demonstrably grew in > popularity during 2000) were Web hosting for nonprofits and our > growing audience for the variety of local information offered on > the SCN home page. > > Unfortunately, both of those have become declining areas this > year. Our text-only dialup is used less and less. Few people use > SCN for personal Web sites because it's so difficult compared to > other choices. So our "cool" factor rests on fewer distinctions > these days than it might. > > But we do still have one other cool thing - the Community > menus that embrace a wide range of people's local interests and > concerns. SCN is well known for that, and it has a lot to do > with why people might still think SCN is "cool," even though > practically everything else about SCN has lost any semblance of > leadership in its field. The Community menus and the matching > focus of the 2000-era SCN home page were the two things that the > Seattle Times cited when it included SCN as an "essential" > Seattle site in its survey of the 100 most essential Web sites > in the summer of 2000. > > The new leadership of SCN did away with one of those > sucesses, and now I hear people proposing to do away with the > other and more important one, the Community menus. Shouldn't we > try to keep a sense of our connection to the whole city, and > realize that that's what has attracted most of the good regard > that people have for SCN? > > > For that reason, I think we should concentrate on SCN sites. > > It is not that there isn't anything else good out there, it is > > just that we need to beat our own drum as much as we can. > > That's a recipe for limiting our audience to a small number > of people. That's like KING 5 not mentioning any community > issues except from those organizations hosted on > hometeamcommunity.com. For any media site with an overall > community purpose to do that is really counterproductive, both > in terms of attracting a sizable audience and in terms of > reaching out to people who haven't historically had Web sites on > SCN - such as the black community and others who need to be > included in whatever dialog, communications and public > understanding we hope to promote in a more effective way among > people in Seattle. > > > I also happen to agree with Lois about not wanting to promote > > sites that our basic users can't even access because they > > don't follow SCN web guidelines. That just doesn't make sense. > > I know a few folks that still only use lynx, SCN has always > > been kind to lynx users. > > SCN's own pages are accessible in Lynx, and always should be. > But only a fraction of a percent of our site's viewers use Lynx. > We can't simply ignore most of the Internet just because the > only browser that SCN provides is so obsolete that almost no one > uses it anymore. Even people who use SCN's Lynx can go to a > library to see the many local sites on our menus as they are > intended to be seen. > > It is the information content of Seattle area sites, not > their technical use of certain HTML tags, that has guided > content selection for SCN's menus and for the home page for the > past several years. It's harmful to the wider interests of > people throughout our city to take such a step backwards as to > limit people's knowledge to a small amount of content based on > outdated technical grounds. > > Rod Clark > webeditors@#scn.org > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Thu Sep 13 13:52:04 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:52:04 -0700 Subject: SCN: [Fwd: PLEASE CONTACT THE WHITE HOUSE AND SENATORS NOW] Message-ID: <3BA11C74.549B1CCD@blarg.net> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: PLEASE CONTACT THE WHITE HOUSE AND SENATORS NOW Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:28:39 -0700 From: "getmelissa at uswest.net" (fwd.) It seems to me that the most appropriate and timely political action would be to call the White House and your senators and say that any retaliation against other countries should makes sure to avoid innocent civilian casualties. Otherwise, not only will it be immoral, but it will just continue the cycle of violence--retaliation and counter-retaliation. Also ask them to make clear statements that anti-Arab sentiments and actions directed against Arab-Americans (or any one with the wrong shade skin) are wrong and should not be condoned. White House switchboard: 1 202 456 1414 Fax: 1 202 456 2461 To Contact Your Legislators.-- esp. Senators--and remember calls and faxes are much more effective than email, go to these links http://www.capwiz.com/lwv/dbq/officials/ http://www.senate.gov/contacting/index_by_state.cfm * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Thu Sep 13 14:08:15 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:08:15 -0700 Subject: SCN: [Fwd: [swing-poly] [Fwd: Thoughts on the madness...]] Message-ID: <3BA1203F.A3D38645@blarg.net> -------- Original Message -------- -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Thoughts on the madness... Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:34:58 -0700 I rarely forward messages, but I think this one has a lot of important points in it...it's from Michael Moore (of ROGER & ME/TV NATION fame)... Attachment: Forwarded Message Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 06:10:17 -0400 To: michaelmoore-l at cloud9.net From: Michael Moore Subject: [Mike's Message] Death, Downtown Reply-to: mikemail at cloud9.net Death, Downtown Dear friends, I was supposed to fly today on the 4:30 PM American Airlines flight from LAX to JFK. But tonight I find myself stuck in L.A. with an incredible range of emotions over what has happened on the island where I work and live in New York City. My wife and I spent the first hours of the day -- after being awakened by phone calls from our parents at 6:40am PT -- trying to contact our daughter at school in New York and our friend JoAnn who works near the World Trade Center. I called JoAnn at her office. As someone picked up, the first tower imploded, and the person answering the phone screamed and ran out, leaving me no clue as to whether or not she or JoAnn would live. It was a sick, horrible, frightening day. On December 27, 1985 I found myself caught in the middle of a terrorist incident at the Vienna airport -- which left 30 people dead, both there and at the Rome airport. (The machine-gunning of passengers in each city was timed to occur at the same moment.) I do not feel like discussing that event tonight because it still brings up too much despair and confusion as to how and why I got to live* a fluke, a mistake, a few feet on the tarmac, and I am still here, there but for the grace of* Safe. Secure. I'm an American, living in America. I like my illusions. I walk through a metal detector, I put my carry-ons through an x-ray machine, and I know all will be well. Here's a short list of my experiences lately with airport security: * At the Newark Airport, the plane is late at boarding everyone. The counter can't find my seat. So I am told to just "go ahead and get on" -- without a ticket! * At Detroit Metro Airport, I don't want to put the lunch I just bought at the deli through the x-ray machine so, as I pass through the metal detector, I hand the sack to the guard through the space between the detector and the x-ray machine. I tell him "It's just a sandwich." He believes me and doesn't bother to check. The sack has gone through neither security device. * At LaGuardia in New York, I check a piece of luggage, but decide to catch a later plane. The first plane leaves without me, but with my bag -- no one knowing what is in it. * Back in Detroit, I take my time getting off the commuter plane. By the time I have come down its stairs, the bus that takes the passengers to the terminal has left -- without me. I am alone on the tarmac, free to wander wherever I want. So I do. Eventually, I flag down a pick-up truck and an airplane mechanic gives me a ride the rest of the way to the terminal. * I have brought knives, razors; and once, my traveling companion brought a hammer and chisel. No one stopped us. Of course, I have gotten away with all of this because the airlines consider my safety SO important, they pay rent-a-cops $5.75 an hour to make sure the bad guys don't get on my plane. That is what my life is worth -- less than the cost of an oil change. Too harsh, you say? Well, chew on this: a first-year pilot on American Eagle (the commuter arm of American Airlines) receives around $15,000 a year in annual pay. That's right -- $15,000 for the person who has your life in his hands. Until recently, Continental Express paid a little over $13,000 a year. There was one guy, an American Eagle pilot, who had four kids so he went down to the welfare office and applied for food stamps -- and he was eligible! Someone on welfare is flying my plane? Is this for real? Yes, it is. So spare me the talk about all the precautions the airlines and the FAA is taking. They, like all businesses, are concerned about one thing -- the bottom line and the profit margin. Four teams of 3-5 people were all able to penetrate airport security on the same morning at 3 different airports and pull off this heinous act? My only response is -- that's all? Well, the pundits are in full diarrhea mode, gushing on about the "terrorist threat" and today's scariest dude on planet earth -- Osama bin Laden. Hey, who knows, maybe he did it. But, something just doesn't add up. Am I being asked to believe that this guy who sleeps in a tent in a desert has been training pilots to fly our most modern, sophisticated jumbo jets with such pinpoint accuracy that they are able to hit these three targets without anyone wondering why these planes were so far off path? Or am I being asked to believe that there were four religious/political fanatics who JUST HAPPENED to be skilled airline pilots who JUST HAPPENED to want to kill themselves today? Maybe you can find one jumbo jet pilot willing to die for the cause -- but FOUR? Ok, maybe you can -- I don't know. What I do know is that all day long I have heard everything about this bin Laden guy except this one fact -- WE created the monster known as Osama bin Laden! Where did he go to terrorist school? At the CIA! Don't take my word for it -- I saw a piece on MSNBC last year that laid it all out. When the Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan, the CIA trained him and his buddies in how to commits acts of terrorism against the Soviet forces. It worked! The Soviets turned and ran. Bin Laden was grateful for what we taught him and thought it might be fun to use those same techniques against us. We abhor terrorism -- unless we're the ones doing the terrorizing. We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians. That was OUR work. You and me. Thirty thousand murdered civilians and who the hell even remembers! We fund a lot of oppressive regimes that have killed a lot of innocent people, and we never let the human suffering THAT causes to interrupt our day one single bit. We have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the world, with our taxpayer-funded terrorism (in Chile, in Vietnam, in Gaza, in Salvador) that I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised when those orphans grow up and are a little whacked in the head from the horror we have helped cause. Yet, our recent domestic terrorism bombings have not been conducted by a guy from the desert but rather by our own citizens: a couple of ex-military guys who hated the federal government. From the first minutes of today's events, I never heard that possibility suggested. Why is that? Maybe it's because the A-rabs are much better foils. A key ingredient in getting Americans whipped into a frenzy against a new enemy is the all-important race card. It's much easier to get us to hate when the object of our hatred doesn't look like us. Congressmen and Senators spent the day calling for more money for the military; one Senator on CNN even said he didn't want to hear any more talk about more money for education or health care -- we should have only one priority: our self-defense. Will we ever get to the point that we realize we will be more secure when the rest of the world isn't living in poverty so we can have nice running shoes? In just 8 months, Bush gets the whole world back to hating us again. He withdraws from the Kyoto agreement, walks us out of the Durban conference on racism, insists on restarting the arms race -- you name it, and Baby Bush has blown it all. The Senators and Congressmen tonight broke out in a spontaneous version of "God Bless America." They're not a bad group of singers! Yes, God, please do bless us. Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right. They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the planes' destination of California -- these were places that voted AGAINST Bush! Why kill them? Why kill anyone? Such insanity* Let's mourn, let's grieve, and when it's appropriate let's examine our contribution to the unsafe world we live in. It doesn't have to be like this* Yours, Michael Moore mmflint at aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ===== ((FREQUENCIES)) The critically acclaimed debut novel by Joshua Ortega NOW AVAILABLE at http://www.amazon.com and http://www.bn.com For book excerpts, T-shirts, or to order directly through the publisher, visit the Omega Point Productions website at: http://www.omegapp.com/frequencies.html __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/0NYolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> ******************************************************************** People meeting People with a sex-positive attitude. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Sep 13 16:11:31 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: The Hunger Site Message-ID: <20010913231131.31526.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> The Hunger Site is back. They were a great site, and got bought up by GreaterGood.com of Seattle. GG tanked, but the Hunger Site didn't sink with that ship. I have heard people on the net mention how great The Hunger Site was, but they are still around. Or back, at least. Patrick. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Thu Sep 13 18:27:08 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re:re evaluate ethics: link suggestion - Seattle Red Cross In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, er-chan wrote: > I propose we purge all our websites of links to hate groups. ... And perhaps intern them? Before anyone gets carried away in the passions of the moment, lets have a reality check: First, do we even have any links to "hate groups"? Second, what is the point in removing such links? Is it really wise to suppress the evidences and signs that entire populations in this world hate America? Given the impossibility of walling off America from the rest of the world, would it not be better to come to grips with _why_ so many people have such hate, and deal with the core issues? === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Thu Sep 13 19:12:59 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: In the midst of tragedy, please help keep the peace In-Reply-To: <007301c13be4$a4580a20$028cc5ce@mshome.net> Message-ID: Scott, thank you. You are right on. I can say that my family in New York City are alive, homeless, frightened, in shock, and my city has been destroyed. Let us all focus on controlling our anger and hope no one reacts without thinking first. Irene Mogol On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Scot Harkins on scn.org wrote: > Howdy, > > > Since yesterday I have made a friend in Egypt. He's of Palestinian descent, > and it's been good to exchange opinions with him about the world today (in > the last 24 hours and before that). I promised him to help Moslems here in > the US in the aftermath of our tragedies. > > Right now, in our country, there is so much anger about what has happened. > I'm angry, too, of course. I know, however, that most people, of all > religions and ethnic backgrounds, are peaceful and caring people. > > There are those among us, however, who are now directing their anger and > their hatred at people of Arab descent or who are practicing Moslems. > Threatening phone calls and now even attacks on mosques are taking place, > yet little has been said by anyone asking Americans to keep their heads. > > Most of us don't need such a reminder, but there are a few who do. They > need to be told, in no uncertain terms, that this is wrong. Very qualified, > very professional, very dedicated people around the country and around the > world are working to find out who was behind this attack. We must let them > do their jobs, and we must let all American citizens and residents carry on > with their lives after this experience. > > Remember that the people who died yesterday were from many religions (and > some from no religion at all). Let us NOT dishonor their memories by > pointing our anger at innocent people who fit some mold. > > > Respectfully, > Scot Harkins > > -- > Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) > Greenbank, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington > scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir > scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Thu Sep 13 19:14:02 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: In the midst of tragedy, please help keep the peace In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Please - no more destruction. Irene On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Kenneth Applegate wrote: > On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Scot Harkins on scn.org wrote: > > Bravo, Scot! Important words: > > > There are those among us, however, who are now directing their anger and > > their hatred at people of Arab descent or who are practicing Moslems. > > Threatening phone calls and now even attacks on mosques are taking place, > > yet little has been said by anyone asking Americans to keep their heads. > > > > Most of us don't need such a reminder, but there are a few who do. They > > need to be told, in no uncertain terms, that this is wrong. > > Yesterday, a few hours after the attacks, I received an email sent out by > the CEO of a software company, CoffeeCup Software, > http://www.coffeecup.com/ which has me on their mailing list. > > In it he advocated "destroying" any country found to be responsible. I > just checked their web site, and found that he has the same message posted > there. This fellow needs a reminder and I just sent the following email to > him: > > >From kenapple at u.washington.edu Wed Sep 12 17:24:59 2001 > Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:21:27 -0700 (PDT) > From: Kenneth Applegate > To: ceo at coffeecup.com > Cc: starsrus at scn.org > Subject: WTC email > > Sir - Yesterday you sent a mass email to people on your Coffee Cup > software list, regarding the destruction of the World Trade Center. > I see today that you have essentially the same opinions posted on your web > site: > > >"Terrorist Attacks on the USA... "These people (murdered > >by cowards) are our brothers. As brothers we can beat up on > >each other, however if you touch my brother you have to bear > >the wrath of me !" We think that whoever is found > >responsible for this should pay the ultimate price. > > > >***************** > >If any country is found responsible, that country should be destroyed. If > >it is a terrorist organization, it should be destroyed. > >****************** > > > >We pray for the innocent civilians that are the victims of this > >attack. May God bless and be with you all. If you decide to > >comment, whether you agree with our CEO or not, remember that > >thousands of innocent Mothers, Fathers, and Children died in this > >tragedy." > > I agree that this a terrible tragedy and that thousands of innocent > mothers, fathers, and children died. > > And you seem to want to compound the tragedy by destroying mothers, > fathers, and children in some other country if their leaders are found to > have been responsible, or if their leaders harbored a terrorist group?!! > For shame! That makes you no better than the WTC terrorists! > > The US should do everything possible to identify the _specific_ > individuals and groups that were responsible and make every effort to > bring them to justice. We should NOT go beyond that to blanket destruction > of a whole country in revenge, thus escalating the level of violence in > this world. > > I can understand that you are justifiably outraged by the attacks of > yesterday. However, I still find your comments offensive and only serving > to inflame the situation. For that reason, I now have no intention of > purchasing your software or ever doing business with your company. Please > remove me from your email list. > > Kenneth Applegate > > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? > By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Thu Sep 13 19:15:34 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re:re evaluate ethics: link suggestion - Seattle Red Cross In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I havent looked at our website since this afternoon. Why is there nothing on the page about this terrible catastrohic event? Respectfully, Irene On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, er-chan wrote: > I propose we purge all our websites of links to hate groups. Legitimate > organizations who wish to pursue peace without condeming Semitic people > as a whole should be linked to. I am reminded of all the wonderful > Arab,Egyptian, Iranian, Afgani people I have known , been invited to > their homes, and my children played with theirs. I do not condemn > all Semites but urge that those people who are at fault be eliminated. > > In the past various groups wishing to fight hate groups have been denied > links on our web sites with such statements as "these are not local > groups" - rethink that please and the webmaster's very terse replies > to Israeli groups seeking links should be re-examined by a committee > of more than one. > > > Hello owner-webeditors at scn.org (On 09/12/01,1:20am,you wrote Re: Re: link... > > RC> > http://www.seattleredcross.org/ > RC> > RC> Lee, > RC> > RC> The Seattle Red Cross and the Puget Sound Blood Center sites > RC> and information are on the What's New page. > RC> > RC> Rod Clark > RC> > RC> > RC> > RC> > RC> > > _,--------, .-. \ o / > elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| > `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o > _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Thu Sep 13 19:18:10 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Fwd: On behalf of all who died today (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20010912220305.B22786@scn.scn.org> Message-ID: Vengence is not the answer. Irene On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, David Barts wrote: > Forwarded from a friend. I'm not a complete pacifist who believes in > turning the other cheek, but still I see a lot in this I agree with, > especially given the current mood in favor of retaliation (as opposed > to defensive and preventative measures, which would have to include a > good deal of asking unpleasant "why would someone feel motivated to do > this?" type questions) I sense in the nation. > > > Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 02:56:26 -0600 > > To: (Recipient list suppressed) > > From: Damian Nash > > Subject: On behalf of all who died today > > > > Dear friends: > > > > On behalf of all who died today > > I would like to make a difference: > > I want to make the world a better place > > For their loved ones and their children. > > > > Tonight we lie restless in our beds > > Our hearts and souls ache > > As they try to stretch around > > The incomprehensibly huge tragedy > > That just crashed down on all of us > > Delivered in passenger jets. > > > > All of us are driven to know "why?" > > Watching news reports, scanning Internet headlines > > Looking for any clue that will make sense > > Out of something so senseless > > That will satisfy a deep, disturbing yearning > > And fill a numb, empty place in our minds > > Where the Trade Towers used to stand. > > > > Here is one little part of the answer, > > Please hear it, add to it, pass it along. > > > > I send this with the kind of compassion > > That appears briefly after a tragedy > > As we all work together, as we give blood, food > > Whatever we can offer > > For others we have never met. > > > > I mail this to you with the hope > > That you will make something with these words > > For the children and the loved ones > > Of all the beautiful human beings > > That perished today in the rubble and the flames. > > > > As we sit in front of our television screens > > Or newspapers, radio, the internet > > Numbed, sickened, enraged, grieving > > We have every reason as a nation > > To strike back > > To find those responsible, > > To punish and destroy. > > > > No one in the world would blame the United States > > For avenging such a heinous act: > > It is our right to revenge > > And we certainly have the power. > > The world is waiting and watching for our response. > > We are the most powerful nation on earth > > We are about to set an example > > Of international relations in the new millenium. > > > > In this moment > > We face an opportunity > > As never before in history > > To change the way of the world > > And put an end to this kind of tragedy > > Forever. > > > > To do this we must all open our eyes together > > We must wake up from the nightmare > > And bravely face our true enemy > > The Beast who wants us to keep sleeping. > > > > Our enemy is not a millionaire oil tycoon > > A military dictator, a country, a religion, an ideology > > Or this month's political scapegoat. > > > > Our true enemy is the Cycle of Pain and Suffering > > And all of us in America > > Are facing the enemy today > > In a way we have never faced it before. > > > > Many of us are eager to avenge our suffering > > By inflicting more pain on anyone presumed guilty > > By feeding the flames, following carnage with carnage > > Taking an eye for an eye, a head for a head. > > > > In this way we win a battle and lose a war > > While the true enemy of humanity, > > The Beast that feeds on our pain and suffering, > > Grows larger and stronger. > > > > The people who carried out this incomprehensible act of > > terrorism > > Must have already endured a level of suffering incomprehensible > > to us > > A kind of pain that twisted the humanity out of their souls > > And left them unable to resist a hideous, twisted plot. > > > > Suffering loves to create more Suffering > > And these men wanted us to glimpse the hell they lived in > > In their neighborhoods, in their countries, > > In the privacy of their tortured souls and minds. > > So they passed the Beast from their shoulders to ours > > By sacrificing their lives > > And the lives of our loved ones > > > > If we decide to hit the suffering back into their court > > Do we win a battle and lose the war? > > > > By temporarily satisfying our need for vengeance > > By dealing out our own version of justice > > Do we really restore the balance or just push the pendulum > > harder? > > Do we improve the world for our children? > > Or do we put them in line for the next retaliation? > > The next escalation? > > The next, larger, more hideous act of terrorism? > > Do we expose those we love to the risk of something even worse? > > > > When I look for any kind of solution, the only way I can see > > That we can ever be truly victorious over terrorism > > Is to discover and destroy the sources of terrorism: > > Poverty, ignorance, oppression, injustice, disease and the > > absence of hope. > > Let us work together to destroy its roots everywhere on the > > planet. > > Starting in our own backyards. > > > > On behalf of all who died today > > So that they will not die in vain > > I ask my friends and the leaders of the US > > To ask a deeper kind of "why?" > > To move beyond the posture of victim and outraged reaction > > To adopt a conscious response that will banish this kind of > > horror > > From the face of the planet > > Forever. > > > > Instead of asking "why?" to satisfy our hunger for answers > > Let us ask that same question to mend what is broken in the > > world. > > Instead of asking "who were these men?" to scapegoat and punish > > Let us ask that same question to learn about the > > incomprehensible pain that > > destroyed them. > > Instead of looking for causes that we ultimately can't control > > and must fear > > Let us look for the ways we contribute to the Cycle of Pain and > > Suffering > > And have the courage to change what we can. > > > > Why did these men blaming the US for their suffering? > > Why did they target these buildings? What did they hope to > > accomplish? > > Were they attempting to ease their own suffering, or the > > suffering of others > > By taking such extreme, merciless methods? > > Are they all completely insane, > > or is there some morsel of truth that gave birth to their > > insane plot? > > > > Only by asking these questions > > And facing the answers with strength and humility > > Can we ever escape the nightmare of suffering > > That has haunted human history. > > > > By seeing how our way of life promotes suffering elsewhere on > > the planet > > And by choosing to act differently for our sake and theirs -- > > This is the way we can make sure that the children of these > > terrorists > > Are freed from the nightmarish kind of world that produced > > their parents > > And that drove them to such unthinkable levels of desperation. > > > > When that happens, > > When the US stands humbly among the other nations of the world > > Committed to making life better for everyone, everywhere, > > Using our freedom, knowledge and power for everyone's benefit, > > Only then can the war on terrorism be won. > > > > If we ever to evolve as a human race > > We must learn to see our only real war as the war on suffering > > And realize it can never be won with bombs, guns > > Tighter security measures or hijacked airplanes -- > > With violence and a tighter fist suffering can only be > > perpetuated. > > > > The only way to win this war, > > The only way to stop the madness, > > Is by listening, truly listening to others, > > And especially those we see as enemies, > > Asking how we are contributing to their suffering > > And doing whatever we can do to alleviate each other's pain. > > > > To win this war > > Individuals must choose to fight suffering, not other people -- > > And so must and nations and corporations. > > > > On behalf of all who died today > > I would like to make a difference: > > I want to make the world a better place > > For their loved ones and their children. > > > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > Please forward this message to all you love > > (Amend it as you feel compelled) > > And do whatever you can do, today > > To ease the suffering on this planet > > For yourself and everyone around you. > > > > > > ===== > Please visit my website! > > http://www.geocities.com/kayoss00/ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger > http://im.yahoo.com > > -- > David W. Barts (davidb at scn.org) / http://www.scn.org/~davidb > "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and > demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of > justice and mercy." -- Wendell Berry > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan at scn.org Thu Sep 13 21:19:23 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re:re evaluate ethics: link suggestion - Seattle Red Cross In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello J. Johnson (On 09/13/01,6:27pm,you wrote Re: Re: SCN: Re:re evaluate... JJ> On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, er-chan wrote: JJ> JJ> > I propose we purge all our websites of links to hate groups. ... JJ> JJ> And perhaps intern them? Why do you want to intern them? What crimes have they been convicted of?? JJ> JJ> Before anyone gets carried away in the passions of the moment, lets have JJ> a reality check: First, do we even have any links to "hate groups"? JJ> Well do we link to hate groups? JJ> Second, what is the point in removing such links? They have websites to recruit more people to hate. Some people hate so much they act on their hatred to kill innocent people at work, the more the better for their twisted brain(?). You want to help them recruit?? Is it really wise to JJ> suppress the evidences and signs that entire populations in this world JJ> hate America? Given the impossibility of walling off America from the JJ> rest of the world, would it not be better to come to grips with _why_ so JJ> many people have such hate, and deal with the core issues? JJ> JJ> === JJ ============================================================= JJ> JJ> JJ> JJ> _,--------, .-. \ o / elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From lee at scn.org Thu Sep 13 23:56:30 2001 From: lee at scn.org (SCN User) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: Message-ID: <200109140656.XAA02251@scn.org> I was wondering the same thing as Irene. If a volunteer is needed to update and maintain the SCN home page I'm willing to help. I have put an idea example page for a some changes to the SCN home page at http://www.scn.org/test/sept.html Respectfully, Lee > >I havent looked at our website since this afternoon. Why is there nothing >on the page about this terrible catastrohic event? >Respectfully, >Irene > > -- 010011000110010101100101 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Fri Sep 14 00:30:35 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, er-chan wrote: > [....] > JJ> Before anyone gets carried away in the passions of the moment, lets have > JJ> a reality check: First, do we even have any links to "hate groups"? > JJ> > Well do we link to hate groups? That's what _I_ asked! Your proposal supposes such links, but apparently you don't know of any. > JJ> Second, what is the point in removing such links? > > They have websites to recruit more people to hate. Some > people hate so much they act on their hatred to kill > innocent people at work, the more the better for > their twisted brain(?). You want to help them recruit?? Which misses the primary question here, of whether we have links to any such sites. Of greater concern is your ready and overly simplistic attribution of all that has happened to "twisted brains". To kill thousands is certainly despicable. But to so characterize the hatred of many millions of people--and thereby implicitly dismiss any other explanation--is a grave error. It trivializes what has happened, and it precludes both the possibility of underlying issues to address and any responsibility for doing so. I think we need to _add_ links to diverse sites, and _especially_ sites we don't agree with. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Fri Sep 14 00:34:46 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re:re evaluate ethics: link suggestion - Seattle Red Cross In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Irene Mogol wrote: > I havent looked at our website since this afternoon. Why is > there nothing on the page about this terrible catastrohic > event? Irene, There have been two items so far, and Jean Buskin has sent in another one for tomorrow (see below). First, on the night of Tuesday, September 11, our site featured links to the Seattle Chapter of the American Red Cross and to the Puget Sound Blood Center, with information about how people could donate blood. Because of the tremendous response to such appeals in the media in general, that item has since been revised (and considerably shortened) to emphasize both groups' current focus on making appointments on a continuing basis to make sure that blood continues to be available for later surgeries. Most of the initial day's information is thus not there now, as more and newer info has appeared on those sites themselves, such as not walking in or calling or even donating right now instead of somewhat later on. The PSBC now prefers that people make appointments on its Web site rather than by telephone. The second item, from Wednedsday afternoon the 12th, was one that Liz White sent in. Liz and some other local cable access TV producers organized an hour-long public access call-in show on Channel 77, for Seattle residents to express their thoughts and share their feelings about the New York tragedy. That program aired live last night. The third item is from Jean Buskin, one of our Information Providers. It just came in a short time ago this evening and it isn't on the site yet: ----- "(fwd. from Jean Buskin) PLANNING MEETING to plan a large public event to say "Justice not Vengeance" and to work to prevent violence against civilian populations anywhere in the world. You are strongly encouraged to attend a planning meeting for this, Saturday, Sept. 15, 5:00 pm, University Baptist Church, main floor parlor. 4554 12th Ave NE, Seattle (corner of NE 47th St and 12th Ave NE in the University District) " ----- By the time you read this, Jean's message about planning for that public event might be up on the What's New page. All of this refers to the What's New page, so if you have questions about the home page, please send them to Steve Guest, who has edited the home page this year. Ken Applegate and a number of others have posted some thoughtful viewpoints on the SCN mailing list. If we could have permission from some people who have made comments on that list to post their views on a Web page on the SCN site, that would be a good step. But I also want to make sure that the authors of the comments want to do that in a more public way, and people might possibly want to edit their comments a bit further before putting them in a more prominently archived place on the site. Yes, we should make a Web page about this, and I hope that the people here on this list can figure out what should be on it, among all that's been said here. I would be happy to post on a Web page, or help someone post on a Web page, whatever the list's consensus is about what we should include. Rod Clark webeditors at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Fri Sep 14 00:48:59 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: <20010913180643.94248.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm totally with Rod here: above all, we need to link to valuable sites about (or based in ) Seattle because it is what makes us useful to people browsing our site, which is the largest population we serve. (We also need to link to everything we host, and to place some kind of mark on what is SCN-hosted, because that is part of the value we deliver as a hosting facility.) The bulk of people who navigate to our site have modern graphical browsers. Trying to limit them to sites that can be browsed with text-only browsers is like something out of a Kurt Vonnegutt novel. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > I can't see how community menus could, or would, be removed. That is > like taking the tires off of the car you want to drive everyday. > > Patrick > > > --- Rod Clark wrote: > > Terry Trimingham wrote: > > > In my opinion, we need to promote SCN and all the cool stuff > > > it does. > > > > Terry, > > > > Which "cool stuff" do people (that is, the general public) > > really think of, when they think of SCN? > > > > Two of the areas that people considered the "coolest" (which > > is to say, they were areas of SCN that demonstrably grew in > > popularity during 2000) were Web hosting for nonprofits and our > > growing audience for the variety of local information offered on > > the SCN home page. > > > > Unfortunately, both of those have become declining areas this > > year. Our text-only dialup is used less and less. Few people use > > SCN for personal Web sites because it's so difficult compared to > > other choices. So our "cool" factor rests on fewer distinctions > > these days than it might. > > > > But we do still have one other cool thing - the Community > > menus that embrace a wide range of people's local interests and > > concerns. SCN is well known for that, and it has a lot to do > > with why people might still think SCN is "cool," even though > > practically everything else about SCN has lost any semblance of > > leadership in its field. The Community menus and the matching > > focus of the 2000-era SCN home page were the two things that the > > Seattle Times cited when it included SCN as an "essential" > > Seattle site in its survey of the 100 most essential Web sites > > in the summer of 2000. > > > > The new leadership of SCN did away with one of those > > sucesses, and now I hear people proposing to do away with the > > other and more important one, the Community menus. Shouldn't we > > try to keep a sense of our connection to the whole city, and > > realize that that's what has attracted most of the good regard > > that people have for SCN? > > > > > For that reason, I think we should concentrate on SCN sites. > > > It is not that there isn't anything else good out there, it is > > > just that we need to beat our own drum as much as we can. > > > > That's a recipe for limiting our audience to a small number > > of people. That's like KING 5 not mentioning any community > > issues except from those organizations hosted on > > hometeamcommunity.com. For any media site with an overall > > community purpose to do that is really counterproductive, both > > in terms of attracting a sizable audience and in terms of > > reaching out to people who haven't historically had Web sites on > > SCN - such as the black community and others who need to be > > included in whatever dialog, communications and public > > understanding we hope to promote in a more effective way among > > people in Seattle. > > > > > I also happen to agree with Lois about not wanting to promote > > > sites that our basic users can't even access because they > > > don't follow SCN web guidelines. That just doesn't make sense. > > > I know a few folks that still only use lynx, SCN has always > > > been kind to lynx users. > > > > SCN's own pages are accessible in Lynx, and always should be. > > But only a fraction of a percent of our site's viewers use Lynx. > > We can't simply ignore most of the Internet just because the > > only browser that SCN provides is so obsolete that almost no one > > uses it anymore. Even people who use SCN's Lynx can go to a > > library to see the many local sites on our menus as they are > > intended to be seen. > > > > It is the information content of Seattle area sites, not > > their technical use of certain HTML tags, that has guided > > content selection for SCN's menus and for the home page for the > > past several years. It's harmful to the wider interests of > > people throughout our city to take such a step backwards as to > > limit people's knowledge to a small amount of content based on > > outdated technical grounds. > > > > Rod Clark > > webeditors@#scn.org > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan at scn.org Fri Sep 14 00:50:14 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for getting back on the track and talking about links that exist ( or don't) on our community web site. 1st base. Hello J. Johnson (On 09/14/01,12:30am,you wrote Re: ) JJ> On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, er-chan wrote: JJ> JJ> > [....] JJ> > JJ> Before anyone gets carried away in the passions of the moment, lets have JJ> > JJ> a reality check: First, do we even have any links to "hate groups"? JJ> > JJ> JJ> > Well do we link to hate groups? JJ> JJ> That's what _I_ asked! Your proposal supposes such links, but JJ> apparently you don't know of any. JJ> JJ> > JJ> Second, what is the point in removing such links? JJ> > JJ> > They have websites to recruit more people to hate. Some JJ> > people hate so much they act on their hatred to kill JJ> > innocent people at work, the more the better for JJ> > their twisted brain(?). You want to help them recruit?? JJ> JJ> Which misses the primary question here, of whether we have links to any JJ> such sites. JJ> JJ> Of greater concern is your ready and overly simplistic attribution of JJ> all that has happened to "twisted brains". To kill thousands is certainly JJ> despicable. I am glad you said it is "despicable" . This is the first, either you (the system administrator for SCN ?) and ROd Clark (the webmaster of SCN ?) have condemmed the monsters who killed maybe 5,000 innocents. base 2. But to so characterize the hatred of many millions of JJ> people--and thereby implicitly dismiss any other explanation--is a grave JJ> error. It trivializes what has happened, and it precludes both the JJ> possibility of underlying issues to address and any responsibility for JJ> doing so. JJ> JJ> I think we need to _add_ links to diverse sites, and _especially_ JJ> sites we don't agree with. JJ> Do you agree with what the monsters did? Would you add a site to recruit more suicide bombers? base 3 Now for the homerun? Why have you and Rod CLark not addressed the issues ? Today is National Day of Mourning. Got anything on the website that mentions that these innocent people died and you are sorry about it? Get with it, in a war there are sides. Which side are you on? If you're not with us you're against us. JJ> === JJ ============================================================= JJ> JJ> JJ> _,--------, .-. \ o / elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan at scn.org Fri Sep 14 00:57:51 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: WEB: National Day of Mourning for the pitcher Message-ID: Thanks for getting back on the track and talking about links that exist ( or don't) on our community web site. 1st base. Hello J. Johnson (On 09/14/01,12:30am,you wrote Re: ) JJ> On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, er-chan wrote: JJ> JJ> > [....] JJ> > JJ> Before anyone gets carried away in the passions of the moment, lets have JJ> > JJ> a reality check: First, do we even have any links to "hate groups"? JJ> > JJ> JJ> > Well do we link to hate groups? JJ> JJ> That's what _I_ asked! Your proposal supposes such links, but JJ> apparently you don't know of any. JJ> JJ> > JJ> Second, what is the point in removing such links? JJ> > JJ> > They have websites to recruit more people to hate. Some JJ> > people hate so much they act on their hatred to kill JJ> > innocent people at work, the more the better for JJ> > their twisted brain(?). You want to help them recruit?? JJ> JJ> Which misses the primary question here, of whether we have links to any JJ> such sites. JJ> JJ> Of greater concern is your ready and overly simplistic attribution of JJ> all that has happened to "twisted brains". To kill thousands is certainly JJ> despicable. I am glad you said it is "despicable" . This is the first, either you (the system administrator for SCN ?) and ROd Clark (the webmaster of SCN ?) have condemmed the monsters who killed maybe 5,000 innocents. base 2. But to so characterize the hatred of many millions of JJ> people--and thereby implicitly dismiss any other explanation--is a grave JJ> error. It trivializes what has happened, and it precludes both the JJ> possibility of underlying issues to address and any responsibility for JJ> doing so. JJ> JJ> I think we need to _add_ links to diverse sites, and _especially_ JJ> sites we don't agree with. JJ> Do you agree with what the monsters did? Would you add a site to recruit more suicide bombers? base 3 Now for the homerun? Why have you and Rod CLark not addressed the issues ? Today is National Day of Mourning. Got anything on the website that mentions that these innocent people died and you are sorry about it? Get with it, in a war there are sides. Which side are you on? If you're not with us you're against us. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Fri Sep 14 01:00:53 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: RE: hate groups In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm 99% with JJ here: I don't believe we host anything that we shouldn't host; its' hard for me to imagine what that would be, unless it was somthing libelous or slanderous, which would subject us to prosecution. On the other hand, if someone (er-chan) believes there are groups we are hosting that we shouldn't, or that we have refused to host groups we should, I think discussion is worthwhile, and this is an appropriate forum. I'll be damn surprised if I find my mind changed with respect to anything we are hosting, but if there are things we have refused to host or to link to, I won't be the least surprised if I think a bad decision was made. However, speaking in generalities is useless here. er-chan: what are we hosting that you think we shouldn't? What have we refused to host or to link to that you think we should? -------------------- Joe Mabel On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, J. Johnson wrote: > On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, er-chan wrote: > > > I propose we purge all our websites of links to hate groups. ... > > And perhaps intern them? > > Before anyone gets carried away in the passions of the moment, lets have > a reality check: First, do we even have any links to "hate groups"? > > Second, what is the point in removing such links? Is it really wise to > suppress the evidences and signs that entire populations in this world > hate America? Given the impossibility of walling off America from the > rest of the world, would it not be better to come to grips with _why_ so > many people have such hate, and deal with the core issues? > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe webmasters > Messages posted on this list are available on the Web at: > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/webmasters-l/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Fri Sep 14 01:07:47 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: In-Reply-To: <200109140656.XAA02251@scn.org> Message-ID: Lee (lee at scn.org) wrote: > I was wondering the same thing as Irene. > > If a volunteer is needed to update and maintain the SCN home > page I'm willing to help. > > I have put an idea example page for a some changes to the SCN > home page at http://www.scn.org/test/sept.html Lee, First I'd like to thank you for your timely concern and reminder, which also came to us from others, about featuring local blood donation information on SCN. The home page is very difficult to update right now. Patrick Fisher has been working during the past couple of weeks to learn enough about the intricacies of Unix so that he can meet the Operations Committee's criteria for posting information there. No one is quite sure when Patrick will be able to update the page, since regular text editing and FTP are no longer allowed by Ops, and currently none of the editors that I know of are able to do it the way that Operations requires. (Well, technically speaking I know how to do it, but I gave away editing the home page last year so that other volunteers could express their voices more, and the voices of more people in our city could be represented on the home page, and I still hope for that to happen.) So thank you for your offer, and as you've helped with a number of things, I hope we can find a way for you to contribute more to the site. Rod Clark webeditors at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Fri Sep 14 02:16:35 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 02:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: The Hunger Site In-Reply-To: <20010913231131.31526.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > The Hunger Site is back. They were a great site, and got > bought up by GreaterGood.com of Seattle. GG tanked, but the > Hunger Site didn't sink with that ship. Patrick, It's still on the Philanthropy menu, since that menu wasn't updated between the time that The Hunger Site was dropped and the time it was revived. http://www.scn.org/civic/philanthropy There's lots more local philanthropy info that could be added there, if someone were interested in making that particular menu into a better grassroots resource in its area. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Fri Sep 14 04:22:24 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 04:22:24 -0700 Subject: SCN: WEB: National Day of Mourning for the pitcher References: Message-ID: <3BA1E870.37080742@blarg.net> er-chan wrote: > > > JJ> I think we need to _add_ links to diverse sites, and _especially_ > JJ> sites we don't agree with. > > JJ> > > Do you agree with what the monsters did? Would you add a site > to recruit more suicide bombers? base 3 > > Now for the homerun? Why have you and Rod CLark not addressed > the issues ? Today is National Day of Mourning. Got anything > on the website that mentions that these innocent people died and > you are sorry about it? Get with it, in a war there are sides. > !!!!Which side are you on? If you're not with us you're against us.!!!! Please do not stoop to such hysterical language in attempting to have others do what you wish. That is mob talk and is definitely not needed at this time of sadness for all those who have died. Please do not think you are honoring the dead by such heated words. We the living need justice.... -sharma * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Fri Sep 14 06:01:21 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: WEB: National Day of Mourning for the pitcher In-Reply-To: <3BA1E870.37080742@blarg.net> Message-ID: Thank you, Sharma, for your very reasonable comments. As for er-chan: I feel a little uncomfortable addressing someone I don't know over issues about which they are obviously very emotional, but when you write what you did, I'm rather offended. Of course I don't 'agree with what those monsters did', nor do I support the Interahamwe in East Africa nor the actions of the Russian government in Chechnya, etc. ad nauseum. Unlike the US government, I can honestly claim never have to collaborated with (or even said a good word about) Osama bin Laden (US ally against the Soviets in the Eighties) or Saddam Hussein (US ally against Iran in the Eighties). I'm not a pacifist, but tell me, er-chan: exactly whom am I supposed to be at war with? At the moment, I happen to be working in London, Englad, so my reports from Seattle are sketchy. I do hear that people have been making bomb threats against the mosque on Northgate. Is this the war for which you wish to enlist me? SCN was not conceived to be a battleground. It was conceived as a place to exchange ideas and information. I would hope that we would stick to a standard that the cure for the ills of free speech is more free speech. It is my strong expectation that (barring only the need to stay withi the laws of libel or slander), our correct way of dealing with offensive content is to respond to it, not to suppress it. That said, I'm sure pro-war propaganda is not short of outlets in the US right now. I doubt SCN would be serving its primary purpose if it were to see itself primarily in terms of serving the cause of any side in any war. Again, I will ask, as I asked before: is there specific content currently on SCN that you are objecting to? If so, spell out what that content is. Otherwise, you are coming on like Sen. Joe McCarthy claiming that the laundry list in his hand was a list of 57 communists in the State Department. Is there specific content you think we should link to that we don't link to? If so, spell out what that content is. Or start a web page of your own, linking to the content you think is inappropriately omitted from SCN, and ask SCN to link to that. If they try to turn you down, I'll certainly be on your side in that fight. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, sharma wrote: > > > er-chan wrote: > > > > > > JJ> I think we need to _add_ links to diverse sites, and _especially_ > > JJ> sites we don't agree with. > > > > JJ> > > > > Do you agree with what the monsters did? Would you add a site > > to recruit more suicide bombers? base 3 > > > > Now for the homerun? Why have you and Rod CLark not addressed > > the issues ? Today is National Day of Mourning. Got anything > > on the website that mentions that these innocent people died and > > you are sorry about it? Get with it, in a war there are sides. > > !!!!Which side are you on? If you're not with us you're against us.!!!! > > Please do not stoop to such hysterical language in > attempting to have others do what you wish. That > is mob talk and is definitely not needed at this > time of sadness for all those who have died. > Please do not think you are honoring the dead by > such heated words. > > We the living need justice.... > > -sharma > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From philip at cs.wits.ac.za Thu Sep 13 22:44:19 2001 From: philip at cs.wits.ac.za (Philip Machanick) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 07:44:19 +0200 Subject: SCN: Re: A Message from the Global South by Saskia Sassen Message-ID: <200109140544.HAA19380@leonids.cs.wits.ac.za> Interesting perspective. The general problem as I see it is one of placing a different value on human lives according to your perspective. Until we can remove this pernicious attitude from our thinking, it will be impossible to address problems like poverty, the Middle East, Northern Ireland -- and the attitude that it's OK to punish a nation's decision-makers by killing thousands of people to make a political statement Philip Machanick * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Fri Sep 14 08:28:22 2001 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:28:22 -0700 Subject: SCN: Well said Message-ID: <3BA1BFA6.25026.8E74B7E@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ============================= Something we all need to keep in mind.... ============================= I'm Not the Enemy (Reshma Memon Yaqub, WA Post)---Like every American, I am outraged. And I want justice. But perhaps unlike many other Americans, I'm feeling something else too. A different kind of fear. I'm feeling what my 6 million fellow American Muslims are feeling - the fear that we too will be considered guilty in the eyes of America, if it turns out that the madmen behind this terrorism were Muslim. I feel as though I've suddenly become the enemy of two groups - those who wish to hurt Americans, and those Americans who wish to strike back. It's a frightening corner to be in. In the past, when lone Muslims have committed acts of terrorism - or have been mistakenly assumed to be guilty, as in Oklahoma City - hate crimes have abounded against American Muslims who look like they're from "that part of the world," against American mosques, against American children in Muslim schools who pray to the same peace-loving God as Jews and Christians. I am now not just afraid, as we all are, for our safety as Americans. I am also afraid for the safety of my sisters-in-law, who wear head scarves in public, and I implore them not to walk alone in the streets of our hometown. I am afraid for my brother, a civil rights lawyer who defends Muslims in high-profile discrimination cases. I am afraid to hear people openly state that Muslim blood is worthless and deserves to be spilled, as I heard when I was in college during the Persian Gulf War. I am afraid that my son won't understand why strangers aren't smiling at him the way they used to. I am afraid that we will be dehumanized because of our skin color, or features, or clothing. My heart aches each time a friend or relative calls, CNN blaring in the background, and sadly reminds me, "It's over for us now. Muslims are done for." I was briefly heartened to hear author Tom Clancy, interviewed on CNN, explaining that Islam is a peaceful religion and that we as Americans must not let go of our ideals of religious tolerance, because it's the way our country behaves when it's been hurt that really reflects who we are. Still, I'm afraid that Americans might view the televised images of a few misguided and deeply wounded people overseas celebrating the pain that America is now feeling, and will assume that I too must share that anti- American sentiment, that I, or my family, or my community, or my religion, could be part of the problem. In fact, every major American Muslim organization has decried this violence against us all. In fact, Islam forbids such acts of violence. In fact, all the Muslims I know cringe at the idea of our faith being used, abused, in the name of political agendas. And though I, like other Americans, want the perpetrators brought to justice, I shudder to think of the innocent lives that may be unnecessarily lost overseas in that pursuit. Children like ours. Mothers like us. Every time I hear of an act of terrorism, I have two prayers. My first is for the victims and their families. My second is, please don't let it be a Muslim. Because unlike when an act of terrorism is committed by a Christian or a Jew, when it is a Muslim, it's not considered an isolated act perpetrated by an isolated group of madmen. The entire faith is characterized as barbaric, as inhuman. And, my fellow Americans, I stand before you, as broken as you are, to tell you that it's not. That we are not. That we Muslims love our country as you do, and that we are bleeding and grieving alongside you. Copyright 2001 The Washington Post Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ljbeedle at scn.org Fri Sep 14 09:25:28 2001 From: ljbeedle at scn.org (Lois Beedle) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: <008d01c13c6f$dfad5680$028cc5ce@mshome.net> Message-ID: I seem to have missed something. We went from discussing featuring websites to what links to have. As a topic editor I link to anything anyone requests that fits into my topic whether I agree with their point of view or not, whether I can 'see' their page or not. I do not feel that SCN desires to hold anyone else to the standard that I thought we had for our own information providers. But I do feel strongly that accessibility is a serious matter and I thought that was what we were all about. When I use lynx I expect to be able to 'see' any page hosted on scn. That is not always the case. I would expect that any site featured by scn would be 'seeable' by me. Folks need to know that one can have an good looking interesting page on scn - with some bells and whistles for graphics folks and still be accessible by those who can not see all the fancy stuff. What better way than featuring them? When I built my first two sites I was never able to see them on line with a graphics browser. I still put up graphics that others enjoyed - with alt tags for the rest of us. Lois Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Scot Harkins on scn.org wrote: > I tend towards the inclusive attitude for links, even external links that > may not follow our web design standards. > > Lynx may seem out of date but it's actually a gateway to broad usability. > We are one of the few Webster _in the world_ that can be browsed by visually > impaired users with browser devices that render web pages to Braille or that > navigate sites in visually simple ways. I don't know that we are actually > pursuing the ADA standards, but the fact that we are both a community > resource and an accessible resource is unique. > > The web has exploded as a world full of eye-candy, which only works for > those with eyes that can see. Those few sites trying to address ADA > standards feature either a low-graphic version of their site or actually > seek to detect the remote browser and load browser-targeted pages. Each of > these requires parallel site development. Keeping a focus on simple design > standards make the pages easier to browse for all users. > > In 20 years the majority of the people in our country will be over 65 years > old. How many of them will appreciate our continuing efforts and the > efforts of others to make the information world easier to use? > > > Scot > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Fri Sep 14 10:04:43 2001 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: National Day of Mourning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have to admit that there is a part of me that in its anger is ready to lash out at the nearest target. There is a part of me that feels that in this 'release' there would be some relief to the visceral reactions that I am having in trying to wrap my mind around an event that is, in the end, not understandable in normal human terms. I think that there are a lot of people that feel this way. I don't know what the solutions are. The people that actually perpetrated this monstrosity have already paid. We can do no more to them. The others that assisted them need to be brought to justice. How and when that happens will unfold - but I hope that we can do it in a way that doesn't bring us down to their level. The level of hate that was reflected in these acts - which most reasoning people would consider insane - is mind bending. The strength of the feeling and conviction carried these people through months, perhaps YEARS of preparation. One note a friend of mine encountered indicated that there was precise calculation as to the floors to hit and the proper angle of the plane as it hit - in order to topple the buildings, not just damage them. If true, it just makes the enormity of the act even more chilling. We cannot and should not stoop to the same levels of hate. That is exactly what they want us to do. This was a strike against the fabric of our society. They want us to be paralyzed. I just read a good article: http://www.msnbc.com/news/628351_asp.htm, of ten things we can do as citizens of this country to show that we are NOT paralyzed. But I look at all of this, and as I try to deal with the thoughts of all the lives ended in terror, I realize that we, as Americans, have been taking our good fortune in this world a little too much for granted. While I don't agree with all of the people that tend to criticize all that the US does overseas, there is a part of me in all of this that, while it cannot in any way justify these murderers actions, nevertheless can see, in a very small way, that our position in the world may be part of the seed that flowered so tragically on Tuesday. There are millions, if not billions of people in this world that are, I believe, in unity about the barbarity and the incomprehensible nature of this event. What we do next will tell the tale. -randy On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Joe Mabel wrote: > Thank you, Sharma, for your very reasonable comments. > > As for er-chan: > I feel a little uncomfortable addressing someone I don't know over issues about > which they are obviously very emotional, but when you write what you did, I'm > rather offended. > > Of course I don't 'agree with what those monsters did', nor do > I support the Interahamwe in East Africa nor the actions of the Russian > government in Chechnya, etc. ad nauseum. Unlike the US government, I can > honestly claim never have to collaborated with (or even said a good word about) > Osama bin Laden (US ally against the Soviets in the Eighties) or Saddam Hussein > (US ally against Iran in the Eighties). > > I'm not a pacifist, but tell me, er-chan: exactly whom am I supposed to be at > war with? At the moment, I happen to be working in London, Englad, so my reports > from Seattle are sketchy. I do hear that people have been making bomb threats > against the mosque on Northgate. Is this the war for which you wish to enlist > me? > > SCN was not conceived to be a battleground. It was conceived as a place to > exchange ideas and information. I would hope that we would stick to a standard > that the cure for the ills of free speech is more free speech. It is my strong > expectation that (barring only the need to stay withi the laws of libel or > slander), our correct way of dealing with offensive content is to respond to it, > not to suppress it. > > That said, I'm sure pro-war propaganda is not short of outlets in the US right > now. I doubt SCN would be serving its primary purpose if it were to see itself > primarily in terms of serving the cause of any side in any war. > > Again, I will ask, as I asked before: is there specific content currently on SCN > that you are objecting to? If so, spell out what that content is. Otherwise, you > are coming on like Sen. Joe McCarthy claiming that the laundry list in his hand > was a list of 57 communists in the State Department. Is there specific content > you think we should link to that we don't link to? If so, spell out what that > content is. Or start a web page of your own, linking to the content you think is > inappropriately omitted from SCN, and ask SCN to link to that. If they > try to turn you down, I'll certainly be on your side in that fight. > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, sharma wrote: > > > > > > > er-chan wrote: > > > > > > > > > JJ> I think we need to _add_ links to diverse sites, and _especially_ > > > JJ> sites we don't agree with. > > > > > > JJ> > > > > > > Do you agree with what the monsters did? Would you add a site > > > to recruit more suicide bombers? base 3 > > > > > > Now for the homerun? Why have you and Rod CLark not addressed > > > the issues ? Today is National Day of Mourning. Got anything > > > on the website that mentions that these innocent people died and > > > you are sorry about it? Get with it, in a war there are sides. > > > !!!!Which side are you on? If you're not with us you're against us.!!!! > > > > Please do not stoop to such hysterical language in > > attempting to have others do what you wish. That > > is mob talk and is definitely not needed at this > > time of sadness for all those who have died. > > Please do not think you are honoring the dead by > > such heated words. > > > > We the living need justice.... > > > > -sharma > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at groupworks.org Fri Sep 14 01:59:41 2001 From: steve at groupworks.org (Steve Guest) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:59:41 -0700 Subject: SCN: Re: RE: hate groups References: Message-ID: <000001c13d4d$2aade4a0$c5c7173f@dellxpsr350> Dear Web and other interested parties, Before this discussion of banning or removing IPs goes much further and we start finger pointing or worse, let me remind everyone of some of the Principles of SCN. They state: "Commitment to Access - Access to the SCN will be free to all. Commitment to Service - The SCN will offer reliable and responsive service. We will provide public information that is timely and useful to the community. Commitment to Democracy - The SCN will promote participation in government and public dialogue. We will place high value in freedom of speech and expression and in the free exchange of ideas. We will support democratic use of electronic technology. Commitment to the World Community - In addition to serving the local community, we will become part of the regional, national and international on-line communities. We will build a system that can serve as a model for other communities." Now this means we will provide a soapbox to anyone who shows any community worth. This allows almost anyone to provide and disseminate information that they feel a community requires/needs. These are fundamental truths, which are the basis of all SCN stands for, and they are unshakable. If we ever decide to go against these then we defeat the purpose we are here for. I come from a country that like many others in this world officially bans such a bold policy - it would be against the law in some cases. Likewise, I have had to defend some of the existence of SCN sites to those who point out support terrorism. Since I have been involved with IPs and SCN I have not known of any organization being told it was not welcome. When users have challenged these sites, I have suggested that the challenger simply apply for and create a counter site on SCN for a balanced view. Be proud of your country and what it stands for - and please do not let the actions of a few, no matter how devastating, make you change that. If you do they will have won and you will be left to contemplate the day you abandoned your principles. Let us always remember the sad events and victims of 11 Sep 2001 and honor the requested silence tomorrow - and then get back to life and enjoy the fact that you can. Thank you for all your hard work and support of SCN Steve -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- Steve Guest (425) 653 7353 Vice-President & ED of Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Supporting People and Communities with Free Internet Services" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From davidb at scn.org Fri Sep 14 12:13:36 2001 From: davidb at scn.org (David Barts) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:13:36 -0700 Subject: SCN: WEB: National Day of Mourning for the pitcher In-Reply-To: ; from er-chan@scn.org on Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:57:51AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010914121336.A9941@scn.scn.org> er-chan writes: > [...] > Now for the homerun? Why have you and Rod CLark not addressed > the issues ? A few sentences later you mention that we're at war. In war, the first commandment is "know thy enemy". I seem to recall Rod and JJ both mentioning investigating what might be the motivations for individuals to engage in the kinds of terrorist actions we've seen this week. Often that means asking questions that are not pleasant to ask, and which have even less pleasant answers. War is not pleasant. Those who feel uncomfortable even with the first basic step of "know thy enemy" should seriously reconsider if war is what they want in the first place; the subsequent steps are far, far less pleasant. > Today is National Day of Mourning. True. > Got anything > on the website that mentions that these innocent people died and > you are sorry about it? Have you put up anything yourself? > Get with it, in a war there are sides. True enough, but a pretty obvious point that we're probably all aware of anyhow. > Which side are you on? I think a more germane question might be "do you really know what war entails, how likely it the post-war situation is to bring about a lasting period of peace and security, and if the likely benefit of that peace and security is worth the likely cost of the means you advocate for achieving it?" And I'm not talking about a vague "war on terrorism"; I'm not even sure if "war" is the right term to use in that phrase. War typically is something pursued against an identified and declared enemy nation; there doesn't appear to be any such clear-cut nation this time. The response to Pearl Harbor was much easier to determine: we knew whose planes attacked, and they were unambiguously the direct agents of another nation. "Japan" and "the Axis" were easy, sharply-defined categories. "Terrorism" is a much vaguer and murkier thing; empowering the government to pursue what are commonly regarded as war measures against it amounts to pretty much a blank check to do anything it wants that it defines as "terrorism." > If you're not with us you're against us. There's more than two sides to every issue. -- David W. Barts (davidb at scn.org) / http://www.scn.org/~davidb "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy." -- Wendell Berry * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Fri Sep 14 13:20:11 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: FW: NYC needs geek help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FYI... ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, David Keyes wrote: > Following the links, it looks like they have what they need for now > and need time to sort through the offers. See > http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/showtell/story/0,23008,3347294,00.html > > - Davi > > David Keyes > Community Technology Planner > City of Seattle Department of Information Technology > 700 Fifth Ave. Suite 2700 > Seattle, WA 98104-5065 USA > (206) 386-9759 > david.keyes at ci.seattle.wa.us > Fax (206) 684-0911d > >>> rch 09/14/01 12:09PM >>> > > ====== Forwarded Message ====== > > From: Sarah Groves Hobart > > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 10:25 AM > > Subject: NYC needs geek help > > > > The Red Cross is looking for Citrix engineers and Microsoft pros as > > well as a large list of equipment and connectivity for its field > > workers and Emergency Operations Centres in New York. > > > > http://www.userfriendly.org/static/ > > > > > > Sarah Groves Hobart > > Director of Development > > 650-581-2639 > > www.saba.com > > > > Invention does not consist in creating out of void, but out of chaos. > > -- Mary Shelley > > > ====== End Forwarded Message ====== > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe local-computer-activists > END > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 14:26:06 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: RE: hate groups In-Reply-To: <000001c13d4d$2aade4a0$c5c7173f@dellxpsr350> Message-ID: <20010914212606.17592.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> I don't think banning or censoring thought does much good. In fact, it may incense people who are attracted to such banned thought or actions. Worse still, who would we censor and keep off of the site? The PLO? The Black Panthers (are they still around?)? There are a lot of things that could annoy my, can annoy me, that are done by people, by groups of people. However, that is the price I pay in a free society. (If I ruled the country, I'd limit Starbucks to only having a store on every OTHER block, rather than on every block, as they are now.) Patrick --- Steve Guest wrote: > Dear Web and other interested parties, > > Before this discussion of banning or removing IPs goes much further > and we > start finger pointing or worse, let me remind everyone of some of > the > Principles of SCN. They state: > > "Commitment to Access - > Access to the SCN will be free to all. > Commitment to Service - > The SCN will offer reliable and responsive service. > We will provide public information that is timely and useful to > the > community. > Commitment to Democracy - > The SCN will promote participation in government and public > dialogue. > We will place high value in freedom of speech and expression and > in the > free exchange of ideas. > We will support democratic use of electronic technology. > Commitment to the World Community - > In addition to serving the local community, we will become part of > the > regional, national and international on-line communities. > We will build a system that can serve as a model for other > communities." > > Now this means we will provide a soapbox to anyone who shows any > community > worth. This allows almost anyone to provide and disseminate > information > that they feel a community requires/needs. These are fundamental > truths, > which are the basis of all SCN stands for, and they are unshakable. > If we > ever decide to go against these then we defeat the purpose we are > here for. > > I come from a country that like many others in this world > officially bans > such a bold policy - it would be against the law in some cases. > Likewise, I > have had to defend some of the existence of SCN sites to those who > point out > support terrorism. Since I have been involved with IPs and SCN I > have not > known of any organization being told it was not welcome. When > users have > challenged these sites, I have suggested that the challenger simply > apply > for and create a counter site on SCN for a balanced view. > > Be proud of your country and what it stands for - and please do not > let the > actions of a few, no matter how devastating, make you change that. > If you > do they will have won and you will be left to contemplate the day > you > abandoned your principles. > > Let us always remember the sad events and victims of 11 Sep 2001 > and honor > the requested silence tomorrow - and then get back to life and > enjoy the > fact that you can. > > Thank you for all your hard work and support of SCN > Steve > -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- > Steve Guest (425) 653 > 7353 > Vice-President & ED of Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Supporting People and Communities with Free Internet Services" > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe webmasters > Messages posted on this list are available on the Web at: > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/webmasters-l/ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 14:59:50 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010914215950.21139.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> I am sure most webmasters have decided not to worry about the Lynx crowd. If 99 percent of the people that come to their site uses browser x or browser y, then they will 'program' for those and write off the 1 percent. They probably think they shouldn't spend 20 percent of their time for that 1 percent. It depends who your audience is. If your audience ONLY serfs the web to get the lastest and hotest game updates, then I doubt someone with a dial-in connection is going to care much. They may have a 386. However, if your site is text driven, community driven, you may be more considerate to all browsers. Include WebTV? Include AOL? Include Palms? Put a detector in your html and build for each browser? Or use the K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple) system and throw in some CCS for the ADA crowd (which I think is a great idea), if you are pouring out information and that is your mission in life. But I don't feel I should have to make my site compatible with the first browsers that ever came out. If 5 people on the planet use a particular browswer, I am not going to be considerate of them. I think Lynx is great. The fact that it does drop-down menus and I can check my Yahoo mail - well, that is incredible. How many people use it? I don't think it is that hard to program for the Lynx crowd. I assume it is easy to screw up and not make it easy for them. But your basic Meat-and-Potatoes web site? That should handle links, I should think. Patrick --- Lois Beedle wrote: > I seem to have missed something. We went from discussing featuring > websites to what links to have. As a topic editor I link to > anything > anyone requests that fits into my topic whether I agree with their > point > of view or not, whether I can 'see' their page or not. I do not > feel that > SCN desires to hold anyone else to the standard that I thought we > had for > our own information providers. > > But I do feel strongly that accessibility is a serious matter and I > thought that was what we were all about. When I use lynx I expect > to be > able to 'see' any page hosted on scn. That is not always the case. > I > would expect that any site featured by scn would be 'seeable' by > me. > > Folks need to know that one can have an good looking interesting > page on > scn - with some bells and whistles for graphics folks and still be > accessible by those who can not see all the fancy stuff. What > better way > than featuring them? > > When I built my first two sites I was never able to see them on > line with > a graphics browser. I still put up graphics that others enjoyed - > with > alt tags for the rest of us. > > Lois > Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. > > On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Scot Harkins on scn.org wrote: > > > I tend towards the inclusive attitude for links, even external > links that > > may not follow our web design standards. > > > > Lynx may seem out of date but it's actually a gateway to broad > usability. > > We are one of the few Webster _in the world_ that can be browsed > by visually > > impaired users with browser devices that render web pages to > Braille or that > > navigate sites in visually simple ways. I don't know that we are > actually > > pursuing the ADA standards, but the fact that we are both a > community > > resource and an accessible resource is unique. > > > > The web has exploded as a world full of eye-candy, which only > works for > > those with eyes that can see. Those few sites trying to address > ADA > > standards feature either a low-graphic version of their site or > actually > > seek to detect the remote browser and load browser-targeted > pages. Each of > > these requires parallel site development. Keeping a focus on > simple design > > standards make the pages easier to browse for all users. > > > > In 20 years the majority of the people in our country will be > over 65 years > > old. How many of them will appreciate our continuing efforts and > the > > efforts of others to make the information world easier to use? > > > > > > Scot > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Fri Sep 14 15:04:03 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: [tesccrier] FW: Afgani-American writer's take on the situation in Afghanistan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another point of view.... -- Doug On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Ralph, Dan wrote: > Forgive me if this is the wrong list for this article, but I thought it was > important enough to send. > > ---------- > Subject: FW: Afgani-American writer's take on the situation in Afghanistan > > Sent to me today by a colleague. Please read carefully and with an open > mind. It's an interesting and rational point of view. > > Peace and Love, > Barbara > > Dear Friends, > The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim > Ansary. Tamim is an Afghani-American writer. He is > also one of the most brilliant people I know in this > life. When he writes, I read. > > When he talks, I listen. > Here is his take on Afghanistan and the whole mess > we are in. > * Gary T. > > Dear Gary and whoever else is on this email thread: > I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing > Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO > Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing > innocent people, people who had nothing to do with > this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept > collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes > later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we > "have the belly to do what must be done." > > And I thought about the issues being raised > especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and > even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never > lost track of what's going on there. So I want to > tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from > where I'm standing. > > I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin > Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people > were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree > that something must be done about those monsters. > > But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. > They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The > Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took > over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political > criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think > Nazis. > > When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you > think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in > the concentration camps." It's not only that the > Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. > They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They > would exult if someone would come in there, take out > the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of > international thugs holed up in their country. > > Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and > overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, > exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. > > A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that > there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan-a > country with no economy, no food. There are millions > of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these > widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered > with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the > Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the > Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban. > > We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan > back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. > The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans > suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? > Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. > Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their > infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health > care? Too late. Someone already did all that. > > New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. > Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In > today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they > have the means to move around. They'd slip away and > hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those > disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't > even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and > dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the > criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it > would only be making common cause with the Taliban-by > raping once again the people they've been raping all > this time. > > So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me > now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way > to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. > When people speak of "having the belly to do what > needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having > the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly > to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent > people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. > > What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And > not just because some Americans would die fighting > their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. > It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get > any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through > Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest > of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim > nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're > flirting with a world war between Islam and the West. > > And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's > exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read > his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He > really believes Islam would beat the west. It might > seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the > world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion > soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those > lands, that's a billion people with nothing > left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's > point of view. > > He's probably wrong, in the end the west would win, > whatever that would mean, but the war would last for > years and millions would die, not just theirs but > ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. > Anyone else? > > Tamim Ansary > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tesccrier as: douglas at scn.org > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-tesccrier-12148J at lists.evergreen.edu or .... > > Visit http://www.evergreen.edu/lists, browse to the list you want, "Enter" the list(using e-mail address and password if any), then select the "Leave (unsubscribe)" button. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Fri Sep 14 15:40:32 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: <20010914215950.21139.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm somewhere in the middle. While I probably wouldn't want to make it a requirement there are several EASY things that can be done to make your site lynx compatible. Also, as I understand it, software that "speaks" out loud (for blind people, e.g.) works better with text. -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > I am sure most webmasters have decided not to worry about the Lynx > crowd. > > If 99 percent of the people that come to their site uses browser x or > browser y, then they will 'program' for those and write off the 1 > percent. They probably think they shouldn't spend 20 percent of their > time for that 1 percent. > > It depends who your audience is. If your audience ONLY serfs the web > to get the lastest and hotest game updates, then I doubt someone with > a dial-in connection is going to care much. They may have a 386. > > However, if your site is text driven, community driven, you may be > more considerate to all browsers. Include WebTV? Include AOL? Include > Palms? Put a detector in your html and build for each browser? > > Or use the K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple) system and throw in some CCS for > the ADA crowd (which I think is a great idea), if you are pouring out > information and that is your mission in life. > > But I don't feel I should have to make my site compatible with the > first browsers that ever came out. If 5 people on the planet use a > particular browswer, I am not going to be considerate of them. > > I think Lynx is great. The fact that it does drop-down menus and I > can check my Yahoo mail - well, that is incredible. > > How many people use it? I don't think it is that hard to program for > the Lynx crowd. I assume it is easy to screw up and not make it easy > for them. > > But your basic Meat-and-Potatoes web site? That should handle links, > I should think. > > Patrick > > > > > > --- Lois Beedle wrote: > > I seem to have missed something. We went from discussing featuring > > websites to what links to have. As a topic editor I link to > > anything > > anyone requests that fits into my topic whether I agree with their > > point > > of view or not, whether I can 'see' their page or not. I do not > > feel that > > SCN desires to hold anyone else to the standard that I thought we > > had for > > our own information providers. > > > > But I do feel strongly that accessibility is a serious matter and I > > thought that was what we were all about. When I use lynx I expect > > to be > > able to 'see' any page hosted on scn. That is not always the case. > > I > > would expect that any site featured by scn would be 'seeable' by > > me. > > > > Folks need to know that one can have an good looking interesting > > page on > > scn - with some bells and whistles for graphics folks and still be > > accessible by those who can not see all the fancy stuff. What > > better way > > than featuring them? > > > > When I built my first two sites I was never able to see them on > > line with > > a graphics browser. I still put up graphics that others enjoyed - > > with > > alt tags for the rest of us. > > > > Lois > > Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. > > > > On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Scot Harkins on scn.org wrote: > > > > > I tend towards the inclusive attitude for links, even external > > links that > > > may not follow our web design standards. > > > > > > Lynx may seem out of date but it's actually a gateway to broad > > usability. > > > We are one of the few Webster _in the world_ that can be browsed > > by visually > > > impaired users with browser devices that render web pages to > > Braille or that > > > navigate sites in visually simple ways. I don't know that we are > > actually > > > pursuing the ADA standards, but the fact that we are both a > > community > > > resource and an accessible resource is unique. > > > > > > The web has exploded as a world full of eye-candy, which only > > works for > > > those with eyes that can see. Those few sites trying to address > > ADA > > > standards feature either a low-graphic version of their site or > > actually > > > seek to detect the remote browser and load browser-targeted > > pages. Each of > > > these requires parallel site development. Keeping a focus on > > simple design > > > standards make the pages easier to browse for all users. > > > > > > In 20 years the majority of the people in our country will be > > over 65 years > > > old. How many of them will appreciate our continuing efforts and > > the > > > efforts of others to make the information world easier to use? > > > > > > > > > Scot > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at groupworks.org Fri Sep 14 16:15:03 2001 From: steve at groupworks.org (Steve Guest) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:15:03 -0700 Subject: SCN: SCN's web front page Message-ID: <006b01c13d73$16f25c40$c5c7173f@dellxpsr350> Dear Lee (and others), I have sent your email as an example of a concerned user of SCN. It is great when users bring issues to our attention. I too have been concerned about the lack of content on our web front page and after being asked, I did put a few things up to show we are still alive and active. Yet it did not come close to the wonderful content we used to have in the past. SCN is essentially an all volunteer run organization. When Rod told us he was leaving the role of WebMaster, over a year ago, we started to seek a replacement. He had done such great things in that position it proved impossible to fill the post. We have now broken the role up and made it more achievable by volunteers. Yet still, we have not found all the parts to the puzzle. We do have a webeditor, and a front page editor signed up and they are trying to find their feet. I hope that very soon things will change, but as with all volunteer effort it is a hope and not a promise. We are always short of volunteers, even the web editing role - so if would love to volunteer time with SCN to get our web site back to something we can all again be proud of that would be wonderful. Contact the volunteer coordinator at vpc at scn.org. I would like to address a few other issues that have been raised in a reply to your posting: 1) to learn enough about the intricacies of Unix SCN is a Unix based service and you do need to know something about Unix to use it. We try to buffer the main users away from this, but we who provide the service have to deal with Unix and all its quirks. Luckily our SysOps can be a very helpful source in the learning process if you ask and do not demand that assistance. They are volunteers also. 2) the Operations Committee's criteria for posting information Well in an effort to ensure people's privacy, we have to put some criteria on who can do what. I expect everyone would be unhappy if any volunteer was randomly given the power to edit any file including yours. So we have a few hurdles which we place there to protect user's files. You would be upset if we did not. 3) since regular text editing and FTP are no longer allowed by Ops Well this is news to all of us. If we have stopped you doing regular editing then that would pretty well make SCN useless. Let me assure all that you can still edit your files and send emails as you always have. SCN is there for its regular business of supporting you. It is true that we are forced to limit ftp access. It would make life easier for all if we could and have been trying to address this issue. Due to the needs of security of all users' files, we have not found a successful way of doing this as yet. I hope this helps and gives you a better insight into SCN. We would love to see you as a new volunteer and our new WebMaster has many roles to fill, as do coordinators in other areas. Thanks for your concern Steve -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- Steve Guest (425) 653 7353 Vice-President & ED of Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Supporting People and Communities with Free Internet Services" Lee (lee at scn.org) wrote: > I was wondering the same thing as Irene. > > If a volunteer is needed to update and maintain the SCN home > page I'm willing to help. > > I have put an idea example page for a some changes to the SCN > home page at http://www.scn.org/test/sept.html -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- -=-=- -=- Steve Guest (425) 653 7353 Vice-President & ED of Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Supporting People and Communities with Free Internet Services" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Fri Sep 14 17:47:43 2001 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: RE: hate groups In-Reply-To: <20010914212606.17592.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > I don't think banning or censoring thought does much good. In fact, > it may incense people who are attracted to such banned thought or > actions. > And the flip side of the coin is that by allowing a group to publish its views to the world on a web page, if those views are truly repugnant, they will succeed in repelling the majority of viewers. Public exposure, in their own words, is probably the best insurance in a democracy against truly crackpot views. Ken Applegate > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Fri Sep 14 18:47:58 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN's web front page In-Reply-To: <006b01c13d73$16f25c40$c5c7173f@dellxpsr350> Message-ID: Lee, > 2) the Operations Committee's criteria for posting information For posting updates to the home page, which is what we were talking about, these criteria include studying and understanding a pre-processor and post-processor for RCS that is non-standard and is not used on any other system anywhere - it was programmed by a member of the SCN Operations Committee. After that, you can brush up on 'man vi'. Using the Operations Committee's unique rwrap program is is the only way now that anyone can edit the home page. > 3) since regular text editing and FTP are no longer allowed by Ops Because of the above requirement, you can't simply use a regular text editor to edit the page. FTP is now impossible to use to update the page, even if you are one of the few people with group write permissions to do so. The output of 'man rwrap' is posted below, to show you how this interesting program works. Sorry for the mismatched formatting. Type 'man rwrap' at the Unix command line and the formatting will work right when used interactively on the screen. Rod Clark ----- RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) NAME RWRAP - Wraps RCS processing around file processing SYNOPSIS rwrap [-v|-h] rwrap [options] _f_i_l_e rwrap [options] -ed _e_d_i_t_o_r _f_i_l_e rwrap [options] -cp _s_o_u_r_c_e_f_i_l_e _f_i_l_e rwrap [options] -cl _c_o_m_m_a_n_d _f_i_l_e [_m_o_r_e _f_i_l_e_s ...] rwrap [options] [-noop|-ante|-post] _f_i_l_e [_m_o_r_e _f_i_l_e_s ...] where _f_i_l_e is the file to modify (default: with 'vi'). _e_d_i_t_o_r is the editor to use. _s_o_u_r_c_e_f_i_l_e is the file to copy from. _c_o_m_m_a_n_d can be any command, utility, or script. _o_p_t_i_o_n_s include: -_v_c, -_s_a_v_e, -_b_a_c_k_u_p, -_n_o_l_o_c_k, -_n_o_r_e_a_d_m_e, -_l, -_m "<_t_e_x_t>", -_w <_a_u_t_h_o_r>. PURPOSE rwrap "wraps" file modification within appropriate and mostly automatic RCS (Revision Control System) processing. Its purpose is to provide _s_a_f_e, _s_t_a_n_d_a_r_d, _a_n_d _c_o_n_s_i_s_t_e_n_t _u_s_e _o_f _R_C_S _a_c_r_o_s_s _t_h_e _o_r_g_a_n_i_z_a_t_i_o_n, with responses appropriate to various situations that may be encountered, without requiring the users to bother with the fine points of RCS or organizational preferred practices. rwrap has been made highly versatile and as simple as possible to encourage its use. rwrap is specifically designed for use on configuration files, and especially system configuration files in a multi-user environment. It has also been designed with rigorous attention to various possible situations and prob- lems, in order to be as robust and safe as possible. As a result it is significantly safer to do RCS with rwrap than to do it directly with the RCS commands. However, rwrap is not a total panacea; it does not overcome certain limita- tions and defects of RCS (see BUGS), nor does it attempt to handle every possible problem or situation. Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 1 RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) Caution regarding inconsistent use of RCS: _i_n_c_o_n_s_i_s_t_e_n_t _u_s_e _o_f _R_C_S, _o_r _m_i_x_e_d _u_s_e _a_n_d _n_o_n-_u_s_e, _w_i_l_l _c_a_u_s_e _p_r_o_b_l_e_m_s. The solution is to use RCS consistently. Note that processes that are not even RCS-aware can be effectively made RCS- aware, and in a standard, consistent manner, by running them inside rwrap using various modes as described below. Note also that rwrap leaves the work file(s) read-only. (In RCS terms, the working file is left "checked-out unlocked".) Other processes may require certain files to be writeable ("locked"); see the "-l" option on how this can be handled. DESCRIPTION For changes in the latest version see CHANGES. When called with a single argument of either -v or -h (or several similar variants), rwrap returns, respectively, the _v_e_r_s_i_o_n number, or a synopsis of _u_s_a_g_e, and exits. In the simplest case, rwrap takes just one argument, the name of the file to be edited. The editor to use is taken from the shell variable $EDITOR; if that is not set, the default editor is vi. Or an editor can be explicitly specified on the command line using the '-ed ' option. Or the changes can be made by copying them from another file using the '-cp ' option. Or the changes can be made by any arbitrary command, util- ity, or script by using the '-cl ' option. (If arguments are included, the must be included inside quote marks with the command. This can also be done with the '-ed' option.) This is very powerful; it allows utili- ties such as vipw to be run from rwrap. Any arguments that are to be given to the command have to be enclosed in quota- tion marks with the command. E.g.: -cl " " . (The main difference between '-ed' and '-cl' is that the target file is included on the command line for the former, but not the latter. If the command used needs a filename on its command line, do it within quotes as described above.) The -noop mode ("no operation") does nothing except to pause; this provides an opportunity to "shell out"--that is, to use '^Z' to go to a shell--to do _a_n_y kind of processing desired, and then return (with 'fg') to rwrap to complete the processing. Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 2 RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) The -ante mode performs all checks and RCS pre-processing, sets lock files, then exits. The -post mode completes the job by doing RCS post-processing and generally cleaning up. These two modes are for special cases, including cleaning up after a crashed session; they are not recommended for gen- eral use. Note that -post expects to find things just as -ante would have left them--it objects if it is misused. When these two modes are used an "A" or a "P" is appended at the end of the log entry to indicate the state of affairs. Options may include any, or none, of the following: -vc: display version number and continue. -save and -backup: (these are synonyms) save a copy of each file specified on the command line to a backup file before making any changes or doing any RCS processing. Backup files are in the same directory as the file, and have the same name, with a tilde ("~") and number appended. Numbering starts with one ("1"), and is incremented to avoid conflicting with any existing files. The full name of the backup file is reported to the user; the backup number alone is recorded in the log file. Backups are made automatically if a file has been changed since it was last archived (checked-in). Note that rwrap does not remove backup files. -l: leaves work file(s) checked-out "locked" (see RCS TERMS AND CONCEPTS) with write permission. (The default is "unlocked", read-only.) This is automatic if '/etc/passwd' or '/etc/group' are specified. Note that leaving an RCS lock on a file may required explict unlocking (with 'rcs -u ') prior to running rwrap. -nolock: turns off the use of a lock file (see FILES). This is for use with utilities that set a lock file them- selves that conflicts with the style of lock file set by rwrap itself. Applies only to the first specified file. -noreadme: when wrap encounters a "README" file (see FILES), it normally displays it (up to 20 lines), and asks whether to continue. The intent is to respect the conven- tion that a README file has important information regarding the target file, and that based on such information the user might want to abort the operation. Where frequent exposure to unchanged information becomes tedious, the -noreadme option can be used. When specified, only the first line of README file is displayed. If the README file has not been changed in more than 65 days, rwrap continues without paus- ing. However, if the modification time is more recent than that rwrap aborts. This is to protect against blunders Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 3 RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) resulting from unawareness of new information. Please be careful: use of -noreadme is an _i_m_p_l_i_c_i_t, _a_n_d _p_o_s_s_i_b_l_y _f_a_l_s_e, _a_s_s_u_m_p_t_i_o_n that the README file has no information of importance. Use of -noreadme is _n_o_t _r_e_c_o_m_m_e_n_d_e_d if you have not recently read the relevant README files. -m "": corresponds to the similar option of ci. This applies only when rwrap is given more than one file name (see below). rwrap will use the supplied (must be quoted if it contains spaces or shell meta-characters) as the log message when checking in the additional files. (Else it says "Changes consequent to changes to" and names the target file.) Note that (unlike ci) a space is required after the "-m". -w : corresponds to the similar option of ci used to specify the author. This is effective only for superusers, and the only effect is to suppress the request to enter a valid login name. Note that (unlike ci) a space is required after the "-w". In all cases rwrap requires the name of at least one file to be processed. With some options rwrap now handles addi- tional file names (" ...") to which RCS process- ing will also be done. File names can be prefixed with relative or absolute paths; rwrap resolves all filenames to their absolute pathname. rwrap also understands the "tilde" ("~[]" conven- tion. Note that several of rwrap's modes are built to "wrap" RCS processing around programs and processes that are ignorant of RCS. In particular, a protection-deficient process (pro- gram, utility, or script) can be run inside rwrap using the -cl option. For example: rwrap -nolock -cl prog rwfile would check out the file 'rwfile', then run 'prog' (which presumably modi- fies the file in some way), then check in the file. 'prog' sees a writeable file; it does not see RCS, nor (in this case) even a lock file. For more complex cases, perhaps where a process is not redu- cible to a script, use the -ante and -post modes. E.g.: rwrap -ante file1 file2 file3 [complex and mystical file processing] rwrap -post file1 file2 file3 would first do various checks and then anterior RCS process- ing. After the files had been processed, running rwrap in Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 4 RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) -post mode would do the posterior RCS processing. In all modes a great deal of file checking is done to ensure proper processing. These include handling of _s_y_m_b_o_l_i_c _l_i_n_k_s, _h_a_r_d-_l_i_n_k_s, _n_o_n-_w_r_i_t_e_a_b_l_e files or directories, reporting any "_R_E_A_D_M_E" or "_l_o_c_k" files found, and setting lock files as appropriate:: For any file name that is neither a regular file nor a symbolic link (such as _d_i_r_e_c_t_o_r_i_e_s or _d_e_v_i_c_e_s), or is not writeable by the user, rwrap aborts. If a "_h_a_r_d-_l_i_n_k" is found (i.e., a file with more than one inode linked to it), rwrap aborts. There is no alternative here: both co and ci break hard-links, resulting in separate and independent files. You can have your file with multiple hard-links (multiple names), or you can have your file in configuration con- trol. But, under RCS, you cannot have both. (Consider making one a symlink.) If a "_R_E_A_D_M_E" file (with a name in the form of <_t_a_r_g_e_t>._R_E_A_D_M_E) is found, and -noreadme has not been specified, rwrap displays the first twenty lines, and asks the user whether to continue, or not. The intent is to respect the convention that a README file has important information regarding the target file, and that based on such information the user might want to abort the operation. If a "_S_T_O_P" file (see FILES) is found, rwrap aborts. This is intended for cases where processing of a file is deemed inadvisable, especially where a user might not be attentive to polite admonishments in a README file. If a _l_o_c_k _f_i_l_e (with a name of the form <_t_a_r_g_e_t>._l_o_c_k is found, rwrap aborts. (Except in -post mode; see below for details.) This is to avoid conflicts with other users or processess that are (or were) accessing the file. The contents of the file are displayed; hopefully this contains information about who set the lock and when. The user is advised to resolve the con- flict, or to remove the (possibly stale) lock file. _S_y_m_b_o_l_i_c _l_i_n_k_s ("symlinks") are resolved to whatever they are linked to (after checking for README and lock files), and the file validation checks repeated for the new target. (The symlinks themselves are not under configuration control. This is because RCS fails to distinguish the symlink from what the symlink points Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 5 RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) to; co and ci would destroy the symlink.) If the file does not yet exist, rwrap also checks that you have _w_r_i_t_e _a_c_c_e_s_s to the specified directory. _l_o_c_k _f_i_l_e_s (see FILES) are set at each symbolic link encountered, and for the fully resolved filename. (Unless '-nolock' is specifed--see above.) Once all of the supplied file names have been fully resolved and checked, rwrap will then check for: - a writeable RCS directory. - unarchived changes. - RCS locks. If any _u_n_a_r_c_h_i_v_e_d _c_h_a_n_g_e_s or _R_C_S _l_o_c_k_s are found rwrap queries the user for instructions. In -post mode: It is an error if the expected _w_o_r_k _f_i_l_e_s, _l_o_c_k _f_i_l_e_s, and _R_C_S _l_o_c_k_s are _n_o_t found, or if another user owns the RCS lock-- rwrap expects to find matters just as they would be left from -ante mode. The contents of any lock files found will be displayed, and the user asked if they are current, consistent, and what is expected. (I.e., check that someone else has not set a lock file.) The check for unarchived changes is not made--such differences are expected. Otherwise: the user is asked how to handle any unarchived changes, and whether to break any RCS locks. (The presump- tion is that they are stale; it is up to the user--sigh--to detect and respond appropriately when they are not stale.) rwrap always puts the RCS archive file into an 'RCS' sub- directory below the directory of the target file. If the 'RCS' directory does not exist, rwrap will attempt to create it. If it can't, or if it fails, or if an existing RCS directory is not writeable, rwrap aborts. rwrap also warns if an RCS archive file exists in the same directory as the target. (This may indicate an earliar archive, or a failure of some kind). If the (possibly new) RCS directory does not have a copy of that archive file, rwrap will offer to move it. Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 6 RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) rwrap creates a _l_o_c_k _f_i_l_e for each file being processed, and for each symbolic link that was encountered in resolving the supplied file name. These files contain the username of the rwrap process and the time. They will be removed when rwrap finishes. The appropriate RCS processing depends on the RCS status of the file. This is somewhat complex, but can be reduced to four cases: No archive file, no working file: No pre-processing; do an "initial check-in" of file after- wards. No archive file, but working file exists: Working file already exists, but has not yet been checked into RCS. rwrap notes this, and will do an initial check- in. Archive file exists, but not working file: File has been previously archived. Check out a clean copy. Both archive file and working file exist: File has been previously archived, but a working file has been checked out, possibly with an RCS lock, and possibly with outstanding changes. This is the interesting case. If the file is locked (see RCS TERMS AND CONCEPTS), rwrap will display who locked it (probably "root"!), and offers to break the lock. (Or it aborts.) If rcsdiff shows any differences from the last checked in revision, rwrap offers to display them. (This uses less. Enter q to quit.) The user then has a choice to save the changes, remove them, or quit. If the changes are saved, they will be checked in. The changes (in diff format) will also be stored in a "dump" file (see FILES). Note that the handling of unarchived changes is problemat- ical. On one hand, we need the documenation of what changes are made when and by whom. Especially by whom, so that any questions about the changes themselves, or of their legitimacy (!!), can be referred quickly and directly to their putative author. Therefore, by agreed upon policy, checking in of changes is required. Any changes not checked in are suspect. Even if they are not actually malevolent in intent, they are still corrosive of Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 7 RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) proper administration. On the other hand, and especially during the transition from mostly non-conforming practice to conforming prac- tice, inconsistent use of RCS could result in loss of vital changes. Note that whether you save "bad" changes, or remove "good" changes, you can get into big trouble (or cause big problems) either way. The proper response depends on the circumstances. Be cautious, act prudently. (Policy note: In Operations we have decided that: if one person makes critical changes to file, but does not properly check them in, and another person does a co that removes those changes, whereupon something crashes, the _f_a_u_l_t _s_h_a_l_l _b_e _o_n _t_h_e _p_e_r_s_o_n _n_o_t _c_h_e_c_k_i_n_g-_i_n those changes. But it would be better to not screw-up in the first place, so please use rwrap.) After all the validation and preprocessing is done rwrap performs whatever process is appropriate to the mode-- presumably modifying the specified files--and then asks whether to "Save" the changes (that is, to check them into the archive), or to "Undo" (as far as possible) all changes. In the latter case rwrap will delete any new files (that did not exist before). It then attempts to restore the initial working file from a backup copy (if any), or check out the last revision of a previously archived file. The default here is dependent on the exit code returned by the process that modified the file: if an error was reported the default is to Undo, else the the default is to Save. Note that various failure or abort terminations wil attempt to do an "Undo". Checked in changes are given the user's login name as the author. Superusers (uid 0) are asked at the beginning of the process for a valid non-superuser login name, unless it already supplied with the -w option or otherwise determined. Superusers are also asked at the end if they want to add a journal entry. OUTPUT The various RCS commands tend to be verbose. To make what is happening more comprehensible, rwrap inserts lines (gen- erally begining with "----" for clarity) to identify each stage of processing, and each file being processed. Lines beginning with ">" are requests for user input. Lines beginning with a star ("*") are error messages. When abort- ing rwrap will report the numeric codes of every problem it detected. Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 8 RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) Note that other output, including error messages, may be returned by external programs (such as editors or scripts). Be careful to distinguish such output from rwrap's output. LOGGING Each session of rwrap that passes the initial syntax and environment checks is logged in the 'rwrap.log' file. This is in /var/log for all superuser's (providing a convenient record of files that have been modified by "root"), else in the user's home directory. The log record for each session includes a time stamp, and a list of each file specified. The files are listed by their resolved absolute pathnames. If the basename of this differs from what was specified on the command line, the latter is included within parentheses. If rwrap is run in -ante or -post mode an "A" or a "P", respectively, will be appended to the line. Additional records (using the same time stamp as the first record) may be added to indicate if unarchived changes ("Diffs") were found, or to record the backup number of any backup files. These are listed in the same order as the files they refer to. If rwrap fails or the user quits, another record will be added with the error code returned. (This only generally indicates the problem or problems encountered; the user is not relieved of recording any prob- lem codes returned.) For superusers: the user name to which the changes are being attributed is logged, and a record (with the login name of the superuser in square brackets) added to that user's log file. FILE OWNER AND GROUP One of the problems with RCS is that the original "owner" and "group" of the work and archive file are not preserved by the co, ci, or rcs commands. (Instead of modifying a file, the RCS commands create a new file to replace the old one.) rwrap now collects the uid and gid of each file, and attempts to restore them at the end of the session. (Actu- ally it collects the uid and gid of the archive file, or the work file if the archive file does not exist, and applies that to both the work and archive files.) Note that while a superuser can freely change the owner and group of any file, regular users can only change the group of a file they own to a group of which they are a member. So if you have write-access to a directory (and if you don't the RCS com- mands will fail), you can replace a file even if you are not a member of its group. But in that case you will not be able to restore the group id. (Some day rwrap may provide a warning when this is about to happen.) Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 9 RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) Note also that in -post mode rwrap does not have knowledge of what the uid and gid may have been earlier: if you do something that changes either, that's what will be pro- pagated. Backup copies of the a work file will generally have the original owner and group attributes. (This uses the '-p' ["preserve"] option of the cp command.) But if rwrap tries to restore a work file (such as with the "Undo" option) it will attempt to give it the owner and group attributes of the archive file. CHANGES A new option, "-save", can be specified to save (make back- ups) all of the files specified on the command line at the outset. (See FILES). This is done automatically for any file that has been changed since it was last archived (checked in). rwrap now attempts to restore the original "group" of the files for all users (not just the superuser), and also the "owner" when run by the superuser. See FILE OWNER AND GROUP, above. RCS TERMS AND CONCEPTS rwrap is essentially nothing more than a means to an end, that end being the application of RCS (Revision Control Sys- tem) commands in a suitable manner. While rwrap tries to shield the user from various complexities of using RCS, it is nonetheless highly advantageous to understand the follow- ing RCS terms and concepts. The _w_o_r_k _f_i_l_e is the file (files) that is being worked on, whose revisions are being archived. The _a_r_c_h_i_v_e _f_i_l_e is where RCS keeps the information it needs to track the revi- sions to the work file. Normally the archive file is of significance to the user only to the extent of whether it exists or not. _C_h_e_c_k-_i_n is the process of _a_r_c_h_i_v_i_n_g the current _r_e_v_i_s_i_o_n of the work file so that it can be accessed in the future. (Normally with the ci command.) _C_h_e_c_k-_o_u_t is the process of restoring a work file to the state of some previously archived revision. (Normally with the co command, but some usages of ci also do a check-out.) In software development environments (and the default behavior of RCS) work files are often removed when they are checked-in, and checked-out only when needed. On the other hand, configuration files (for which rwrap is intended) generally should not be removed; rwrap therefore leaves the working file "checked- Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 10 RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) out". RCS implements _l_o_c_k_s to indicate when someone has been given access for modifying the work file (and the file given write permission). (This is to be distinguished from a _l_o_c_k _f_i_l_e, to be discussed shortly.) rwrap handles getting a lock. For another user to obtain write-access to the file (through RCS), either the first user must relinquish the lock (such as by checking-in the file), or the other user must _b_r_e_a_k _t_h_e _l_o_c_k. rwrap handles all the details of doing this, but the decision to break a lock, and the responsibility for any consequences, necessarily lie with the user. For more information about RCS see the man pages for rcsin- tro(1), ci(1), co(1), and rcs(1). Note that _R_C_S _l_o_c_k_s (described above) are to be dis- tinguished from the _l_o_c_k _f_i_l_e_s that rwrap uses. The former are internal to, and meaningful only in the context of, RCS. The latter is a general convention for indicating to other processes and users that a file is being accessed, and sub- ject to modification. rwrap respects "lock" files, sets them, and removes them when done. See FILES. RCS PARAMETERS As rwrap is designed specifically to do configuration con- trol on configuration files, it always leaves a copy of the "working file" checked out. Generally it leaves the working file "unlocked"--that is, read-only--to deter changing it outside of RCS, and (hopefully) as a gentle hint that the file is under configuration control. It will leave the specified file(s) "locked", with read-write permissions, if the '-l' option is specified, or if '/etc/passwd' or '/etc/group' are specified. Check-ins always include the user's login name (or a valid login name supplied by superuers) as author (ci's -w option). This identifies who is responsible for the changes, and to whom to ask regarding the changes, their legitimacy, or the validity of the attribution. Check-in's are always "forced"; that is, the file is always checked in (if "Saved") as a new revision even if there were no changes. This is so multiple files handled as a set will show when changes were made to any file in the set, and to simplify user interaction. Check-out's are also forced, again to simplify user interac- tion. Note that the user's RCSINIT environmental variable, if set, Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 11 RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) will affect the RCS programs used by rwrap, and could cause rwrap to fail. RETURN CODES rwrap returns 0 if no errors are detected (but see BUGS), or an integer indicating where it aborted or the user quit. When processing more than one file it will check all of the files specified, but generally will find only one problem or error per file. Before exiting it will display the numeric codes of all problems detected. The last two digits indi- cate the specific error, and any preceeding digits indicate which file (in the order specified on the command line). The return code is generally the first error code found. FILES A given file name (with optional pathname, relative or abso- lute) is resolved through any symbolic links to identify the actual target file. rwrap then references: _t_a_r_g_e_t - the file to be changed (after resolving any symlinks). _t_a_r_g_e_t,v - possibly an old archive file. RCS - subdirectory for RCS archive files. RCS/_t_a_r_g_e_t,v - the RCS archive file for _t_a_r_g_e_t. _t_a_r_g_e_t.README - has information pertaining to _t_a_r_g_e_t. _s_y_m_l_i_n_k.README - same, but relative to any symlink files found; could be in a different directory. Whenever rwrap finds a symlink it looks for an associated README file. _t_a_r_g_e_t.lock - the "lock" file. _t_a_r_g_e_t~_n_n - general form of backup file(s). _t_a_r_g_e_t.xx - temporarily holds unrecorded changes. _t_a_r_g_e_t.XX - accumulated unrecorded changes. _t_a_r_g_e_t.STOP - the "STOP" file. These preceeding files are relative to the directory con- taining _t_a_r_g_e_t, except there may be additional README or lock files relative to any symbolic links found. /$HOME/rwrap.log - log file. /var/log/rwrap.log - log file for superusers. Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 12 RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) REQUIRES rwrap is now a unitary Perl script, and requires no other programs except for the RCS programs (rlog, rcs, rcsdiff, co, and ci), and other standard Unix programs. SEE ALSO See also: rcsintro(1), ci(1), co(1), rcsdiff(1), rlog(1), and rcs(1). BUGS, DEFECTS, AND UNRESOLVED ISSUES There are still some odd problems when used as root in SunOS. There may be problems with specific terminal (stty) set- tings. Can't protect against mishaps where RCS is used incon- sistently. Unable to entirely transcend the deficiencies of RCS, such as destroying symbolic links, hard links, and existing file ownership. Maintaining owner and group attributes is only partly solved. There should be some way of finessing RCS to preserve the owner and group of an existing file; perhaps by substituting another file. Does not distinguish between an RCS lock on the current revision of a file, and an RCS lock on some other revision or branch. Lock files can't protect against other processes or users that don't respect lock files, or come in through a dif- ferent symlink. Ability to verify the true identity of a superuser is lim- ited. Unable to remove all sources of user error. There are undoubtably some subtle improvements to made in regards of permissions. Too much information displayed on the screen. Wait--that's a feature! Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 13 RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) AUTHOR Written by "JJ". Send comments to jj at scn.org. Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 14 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From scoth at scn.org Fri Sep 14 22:36:49 2001 From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on scn.org) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:36:49 -0700 Subject: War or justice? (was SCN: Re: National Day of Mourning) References: Message-ID: <007201c13da8$7187a680$028cc5ce@mshome.net> I appreciate Doug's posting of Tamim Ansary's insightful writing. I fear we are being led down the road to some kind of "war" that will not truly accomplish anything other than suffering and death. We don't need a war. We need to find the criminals and bring them to justice. I'd say the ultimate insult to them would be life in prison in the US. Not death. That would make them martyrs to the next line of criminals. We must treat them like the criminals they are and not elevate them to the status of "enemy states". I sincerely hope Americans are watching who has stood with us around the world. The people who now curse Muslims and Arabs should see the people in Egypt and Iran and beyond who are shocked and angered at such a crime committed in some twisted name of Islam. Just as shocked as Americans were of the "Christians" who last shook our world in Oklahoma City. We must also take responsibility for our own actions abroad. It will help us understand why this is happening at all. Michael Moore's website, www.michaelmoore.com, has his own writing on the matter, and links to others, giving a realistic and hard view of our own part in creating these monsters. I cannot say I'm so much angry at what these monsters have done. I have felt more sad than anything. Sad that people become so twisted. Sad that they may be twisted in part because of our own actions abroad. Not that we are to blame for our own tragedy, but that we must see where we made it possible. Peace is not easy. It is often much harder than war. Maybe we'll have to subdue someone using our military, but I just cannot see bombing them senseless. We can rob bin Laden of his dream. He cannot hide forever. We can uncover his cells. We can build the cooperation of nations, remove his options to hide, trace down his friends and deal with them, and finally run him to a corner. A deliberate, forceful, persistent search. I dunno. I just pray we don't do the hot-blooded but foolish thing. Scot -- Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) Greenbank, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From scoth at scn.org Fri Sep 14 23:29:52 2001 From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on scn.org) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:29:52 -0700 Subject: SCN: Sophisticated? Did it really need a nation behind it? Message-ID: <008201c13daf$da4f8460$028cc5ce@mshome.net> Something has bugged me since the talking heads have suggested the idea that this attack was a highly sophisticated plan that MUST have involved more than just bin Laden. Indeed, it MUST have involved some state, perhaps Iraq. While I don't doubt that it is possible that Iraq is involved, I believe this plan could have been carried out solely by bin Laden's group. There are only a few factors behind the plan, and bin Laden has the means to accomplish them all. First is planning and organization. This is the ability to plan an effective attack scenario, and then to organize and train the people who will carry out the plan. We're talking about four teams of a total of eighteen people. Those are confined, small, easily managed groups. Bin Laden has the training to organize such a crew, and the logistical support people behind them. The CIA trained him, and he organized some very effective but simple campaigns against the Russians. There could be as few as one-hundred people involved, helping maintain the secrecy needed for such a bold plan. Second is money. Pilot training is not cheap...for the average person. Any sufficiently dedicated person, however, with the right amount of money can learn to fly commercial aircraft in a reasonably short period of time. Bin Laden supposedly has that kind of money. Not millions of dollars, mind you. Maybe a million. Maybe two million. That's not really that much money. "Oh, come on, he took over FOUR planes at the same time! How did he plan that?" Simple enough. Travelocity.com and other websites, and even more simply printed flight schedules, show flight times and even equipment. It doesn't take a lot to pin down four or more big jets running transcon routes. "Yeah, but how did they get on the airplanes? They MUST have had passes on the tarmac to get on board the plane." Getting ON and airplane is really very easy. You buy a ticket. Instant access to a flying bomb. Furthermore, the flight attendants count heads before closing the doors. Fo ur or five extra people ought to give them pause. That's the first sign of stowaways or worse. Being a ticketed passenger avoids that possible problem. "Well, sure buy a ticket, but you have to show ID in order to board. They're probably in the US illegally, so how to they get the ID?" Ask the police how easy it is for identity thieves to create convincing false identities, right down to state-created drivers licenses. They probably carried convincing and even legal (not forged) ID's under false names. Maybe they didn't care and traveled under their real names, but that's too risky for other reasons. It doesn't really take a lot to get a complete identity in our country. It's illegal, but it's not hard. "How did they get into our country? Surely there's a record somewhere for the arrival of these people." Maybe. Maybe not. They could have walked into our country, either across a border (and not at a crossing) or from a boat dropped from a ship off one of the coasts. It's really very easy to enter our country without passing a legal port of entry. In fact, right here in Washington, you can walk across from Canada through hiking in the forests or by stepping across on a quiet night at one of the communities that straddle the border. These are places where you literally step across the border as easily as walking over a ditch. Step, you're in the US. Step, you're back in Canada. Step, you're back in the US, and there isn't a Customs agent in sight. "How did they get the weapons on board the airplanes?" I've flown with my Super Leatherman many times, right on my belt. I could kill someone with it quite easily (logistically at least, though I have a hard time even punching someone). Not by stabbing, but by cutting the right spot. Hijacking has traditionally followed a simple pattern. The hijacker(s) take over the plane, make demands, maybe land, maybe negotiate, maybe not. The landing almost always happens, so flight crews were taught to focus on keeping the situation calm, counting on eventual negotiations, but preparing for some level of danger. Using the airplane as a bomb probably didn't even occur to them until the last moment, save perhaps for the one plane that did not make it's target. I imagine the hijackers lied about their intent as well to keep the flight crews at ease. I wouldn't be surprised if they had the pilots set the new course ("So we're going to land in NY/DC?") and set the autopilot. Then, closer to the target the sufficiently trained hijacker turned off the autopilot and took the controls, at which point the pilots probably realized (to late) that someone was actually at the controls and it wasn't them. Using planes as bombs isn't a new idea, either. Study up on the Pacific theater of World War II. Hijackers crashing planes isn't new, either. What was new and bold was stealing not one but several planes at the same time and flying them into much larger targets. Even accidents provide the idea, such as the DC-3 (or some such airplane) that hit the Empire State Building long ago, or a couple of recent military crashes near airfields. Put a big jet with lots of fuel into even a large building and you'll at least kill a bunch of people and possibly get the building condemned. I'll bet the masters behind the attack got more than they could possibly have hoped for in the original plan. To be sure, this was an inventive, well planned, well executed attack, but I don't think it's as complex a project as many seem to think. I think a well organized but small group with good resources could pull it off. Scot -- Scot Harkins (KA5KDU) Greenbank, WA | Native Texan firmly planted in Western Washington scoth at bigfoot.com | SCA: Ld. Scot MacFin, Barony of Madrone, An Tir scoth at scn.org/msn.com | URL * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan at scn.org Sat Sep 15 00:02:54 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: WEB: National Day of Mourning for the pitcher In-Reply-To: <20010914121336.A9941@scn.scn.org> Message-ID: Hello David Barts (On 09/14/01,12:13pm,you wrote Re: Re: SCN: WEB:... DB> er-chan writes: DB> DB> > [...] DB> > Now for the homerun? Why have you and Rod CLark not addressed DB> > the issues ? DB> ^ DB> > Got anything DB> > on the website that mentions that these innocent people died and DB> > you are sorry about it? DB> DB> Have you put up anything yourself? DB> DB The issue is the SCN webpage or homepage- managed by webmaster Rod Clark (is that correct?) Do I have your permission to edit the SCN homepage next time we (us AMericans) get attacked? Is that what you mean by "Have you put up anything yourself?" I don't know whether there are any sites on SCN that have recruited suicide bombers? That is the job of the webmaster to know what we got linked to (use a search engine-it's a one liner). So you AMericans feel freedom of speech means leaving up links to suicide bomber recruitment or terrorist web-sites? The sites that were refused links(there were some) I don't have access to the archiuves(the webmaster probably does). You know that don't you? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 08:59:07 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: RE: hate groups In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010915155907.56390.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> And I would feel offended, intelligence insulted, if someone was deciding what was good or bad for me. And how can anyone make an informed decision if it is being made for them. P- --- Kenneth Applegate wrote: > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > > > I don't think banning or censoring thought does much good. In > fact, > > it may incense people who are attracted to such banned thought or > > actions. > > > > And the flip side of the coin is that by allowing a group to > publish its > views to the world on a web page, if those views are truly > repugnant, they > will succeed in repelling the majority of viewers. Public exposure, > in > their own words, is probably the best insurance in a democracy > against > truly crackpot views. > > Ken Applegate > > > > > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from > Seattle? > By the windshield wipers on their > telescopes! > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 09:02:39 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: websites to feature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010915160239.86946.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> I would hope that people would be considerate of those using Lynx browsers. Especially make it ADA compliant with Bobby (sp?). --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > I'm somewhere in the middle. While I probably wouldn't > want to make it a requirement there are several EASY things > that can be done to make your site lynx compatible. Also, > as I understand it, software that "speaks" out loud (for > blind people, e.g.) works better with text. > > -- Doug > > > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY > * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change > * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 > * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure > * > * is being shaped today. > * > * But by whom and to what ends? > * > > ****************************************************************** > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > > > I am sure most webmasters have decided not to worry about the > Lynx > > crowd. > > > > If 99 percent of the people that come to their site uses browser > x or > > browser y, then they will 'program' for those and write off the 1 > > percent. They probably think they shouldn't spend 20 percent of > their > > time for that 1 percent. > > > > It depends who your audience is. If your audience ONLY serfs the > web > > to get the lastest and hotest game updates, then I doubt someone > with > > a dial-in connection is going to care much. They may have a 386. > > > > However, if your site is text driven, community driven, you may > be > > more considerate to all browsers. Include WebTV? Include AOL? > Include > > Palms? Put a detector in your html and build for each browser? > > > > Or use the K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple) system and throw in some CCS > for > > the ADA crowd (which I think is a great idea), if you are pouring > out > > information and that is your mission in life. > > > > But I don't feel I should have to make my site compatible with > the > > first browsers that ever came out. If 5 people on the planet use > a > > particular browswer, I am not going to be considerate of them. > > > > I think Lynx is great. The fact that it does drop-down menus and > I > > can check my Yahoo mail - well, that is incredible. > > > > How many people use it? I don't think it is that hard to program > for > > the Lynx crowd. I assume it is easy to screw up and not make it > easy > > for them. > > > > But your basic Meat-and-Potatoes web site? That should handle > links, > > I should think. > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Lois Beedle wrote: > > > I seem to have missed something. We went from discussing > featuring > > > websites to what links to have. As a topic editor I link to > > > anything > > > anyone requests that fits into my topic whether I agree with > their > > > point > > > of view or not, whether I can 'see' their page or not. I do not > > > feel that > > > SCN desires to hold anyone else to the standard that I thought > we > > > had for > > > our own information providers. > > > > > > But I do feel strongly that accessibility is a serious matter > and I > > > thought that was what we were all about. When I use lynx I > expect > > > to be > > > able to 'see' any page hosted on scn. That is not always the > case. > > > I > > > would expect that any site featured by scn would be 'seeable' > by > > > me. > > > > > > Folks need to know that one can have an good looking > interesting > > > page on > > > scn - with some bells and whistles for graphics folks and still > be > > > accessible by those who can not see all the fancy stuff. What > > > better way > > > than featuring them? > > > > > > When I built my first two sites I was never able to see them on > > > line with > > > a graphics browser. I still put up graphics that others > enjoyed - > > > with > > > alt tags for the rest of us. > > > > > > Lois > > > Dip it in chocolate, it'll be fine. > > > > > > On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Scot Harkins on scn.org wrote: > > > > > > > I tend towards the inclusive attitude for links, even > external > > > links that > > > > may not follow our web design standards. > > > > > > > > Lynx may seem out of date but it's actually a gateway to > broad > > > usability. > > > > We are one of the few Webster _in the world_ that can be > browsed > > > by visually > > > > impaired users with browser devices that render web pages to > > > Braille or that > > > > navigate sites in visually simple ways. I don't know that we > are > > > actually > > > > pursuing the ADA standards, but the fact that we are both a > > > community > > > > resource and an accessible resource is unique. > > > > > > > > The web has exploded as a world full of eye-candy, which only > > > works for > > > > those with eyes that can see. Those few sites trying to > address > > > ADA > > > > standards feature either a low-graphic version of their site > or > > > actually > > > > seek to detect the remote browser and load browser-targeted > > > pages. Each of > > > > these requires parallel site development. Keeping a focus on > > > simple design > > > > standards make the pages easier to browse for all users. > > > > > > > > In 20 years the majority of the people in our country will be > > > over 65 years > > > > old. How many of them will appreciate our continuing efforts > and > > > the > > > > efforts of others to make the information world easier to > use? > > > > > > > > > > > > Scot > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: > > > ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > * * > > > * * * > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > > Donate cash, emergency relief information > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 09:07:28 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: The Hunger Site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010915160728.30120.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> I have good news. My last night at my night job was last night instead of next Friday, so I now have a life! Not really, but I do have time for one. Let me look at updating the philanthropy page. There is talk of splitting up the duties of webmaster/coordinator, so we will see where that goes and what happens. A lot of people lamented that the Hunger Site was gone for good. I thought I'd get the word out. Glad they are on our site. Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > > The Hunger Site is back. They were a great site, and got > > bought up by GreaterGood.com of Seattle. GG tanked, but the > > Hunger Site didn't sink with that ship. > > Patrick, > > It's still on the Philanthropy menu, since that menu wasn't > updated between the time that The Hunger Site was dropped and > the time it was revived. > > http://www.scn.org/civic/philanthropy > > There's lots more local philanthropy info that could be > added there, if someone were interested in making that > particular menu into a better grassroots resource in its area. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 09:10:13 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010915161013.25995.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> I'll be working on the update this weekend. The update is done. On my computer. Let me get it up there on the site. Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > Lee (lee at scn.org) wrote: > > I was wondering the same thing as Irene. > > > > If a volunteer is needed to update and maintain the SCN home > > page I'm willing to help. > > > > I have put an idea example page for a some changes to the SCN > > home page at http://www.scn.org/test/sept.html > > Lee, > > First I'd like to thank you for your timely concern and > reminder, which also came to us from others, about featuring > local blood donation information on SCN. > > The home page is very difficult to update right now. Patrick > Fisher has been working during the past couple of weeks to learn > enough about the intricacies of Unix so that he can meet the > Operations Committee's criteria for posting information there. > No one is quite sure when Patrick will be able to update the > page, since regular text editing and FTP are no longer allowed > by Ops, and currently none of the editors that I know of are > able to do it the way that Operations requires. (Well, > technically speaking I know how to do it, but I gave away > editing the home page last year so that other volunteers could > express their voices more, and the voices of more people in our > city could be represented on the home page, and I still hope for > that to happen.) > > So thank you for your offer, and as you've helped with a > number of things, I hope we can find a way for you to contribute > more to the site. > > Rod Clark > webeditors at scn.org > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 09:14:34 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: RE: hate groups In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010915161434.58026.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> I think we should take the easy way out of what to host and what not to host: The site looks fine and we are serving our community. Patrick --- Joe Mabel wrote: > I'm 99% with JJ here: I don't believe we host anything that we > shouldn't host; > its' hard for me to imagine what that would be, unless it was > somthing libelous > or slanderous, which would subject us to prosecution. > > On the other hand, if someone (er-chan) believes there are groups > we are hosting > that we shouldn't, or that we have refused to host groups we > should, I think > discussion is worthwhile, and this is an appropriate forum. I'll be > damn surprised if I find my mind changed with respect to anything > we are > hosting, but if there are things we have refused to host or to link > to, I won't > be the least surprised if I think a bad decision was made. > > However, speaking in generalities is useless here. er-chan: what > are we hosting > that you think we shouldn't? What have we refused to host or to > link to that you > think we should? > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, J. Johnson wrote: > > > On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, er-chan wrote: > > > > > I propose we purge all our websites of links to hate groups. > ... > > > > And perhaps intern them? > > > > Before anyone gets carried away in the passions of the moment, > lets have > > a reality check: First, do we even have any links to "hate > groups"? > > > > Second, what is the point in removing such links? Is it really > wise to > > suppress the evidences and signs that entire populations in this > world > > hate America? Given the impossibility of walling off America > from the > > rest of the world, would it not be better to come to grips with > _why_ so > > many people have such hate, and deal with the core issues? > > > > === JJ > ============================================================= > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe webmasters > > Messages posted on this list are available on the Web at: > > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/webmasters-l/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe webmasters > Messages posted on this list are available on the Web at: > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/webmasters-l/ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 09:16:23 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: WEB: National Day of Mourning for the pitcher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010915161623.99433.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> To respond again: Our site looks great. I don't see any problems. Patrick --- er-chan wrote: > > > Thanks for getting back on the track and talking about links > > that exist ( or don't) on our community web site. 1st base. > > Hello J. Johnson (On 09/14/01,12:30am,you wrote Re: ) > > JJ> On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, er-chan wrote: > JJ> > JJ> > [....] > JJ> > JJ> Before anyone gets carried away in the passions of the > moment, lets have > JJ> > JJ> a reality check: First, do we even have any links to > "hate groups"? > JJ> > JJ> > JJ> > Well do we link to hate groups? > JJ> > JJ> That's what _I_ asked! Your proposal supposes such > links, but > JJ> apparently you don't know of any. > JJ> > JJ> > JJ> Second, what is the point in removing such links? > JJ> > > JJ> > They have websites to recruit more people to hate. Some > JJ> > people hate so much they act on their hatred to kill > JJ> > innocent people at work, the more the better for > JJ> > their twisted brain(?). You want to help them recruit?? > JJ> > JJ> Which misses the primary question here, of whether we have > links to any > JJ> such sites. > JJ> > JJ> Of greater concern is your ready and overly simplistic > attribution of > JJ> all that has happened to "twisted brains". To kill thousands > is certainly > JJ> despicable. > > I am glad you said it is "despicable" . This is the first, > either > you (the system administrator for SCN ?) and ROd Clark (the > webmaster of > SCN ?) have condemmed the monsters who killed maybe 5,000 > innocents. base 2. > > But to so characterize the hatred of many millions of > JJ> people--and thereby implicitly dismiss any other > explanation--is a grave > JJ> error. It trivializes what has happened, and it precludes both > the > JJ> possibility of underlying issues to address and any > responsibility for > JJ> doing so. > JJ> > JJ> I think we need to _add_ links to diverse sites, and > _especially_ > JJ> sites we don't agree with. > > > JJ> > > Do you agree with what the monsters did? Would you add a > site > to recruit more suicide bombers? base 3 > > Now for the homerun? Why have you and Rod CLark not addressed > the issues ? Today is National Day of Mourning. Got anything > on the website that mentions that these innocent people died and > you are sorry about it? Get with it, in a war there are sides. > Which side are you on? If you're not with us you're against us. > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Sat Sep 15 09:43:03 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: WEB: National Day of Mourning for the pitcher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Elaine Chan wrote: > The sites that were refused links(there were some) I don't > have access to the archiuves(the webmaster probably does). > You know that don't you? Elaine, Because you're a member of the webeditors mailing list, you can read through the archives whenever you like. Just send a message to majordomo at scn.org with a blank subject line and put in the message body: index webeditors That will give you a list of the archived message files by month. If anyone else would like to look at the archives of the webeditors list and isn't a list member, I'd be happy to send them to you. The webeditors list is open to anyone interested in the subject, and so far no one has ever been turned down who has asked to join the list. Actually I don't know just what percentage of requests have ended up on the menus. It might be half, or some other number. But I'm willing to let anyone who's interested see SCN's track record on it, both because I think that's the best approach to such a question, and also because I think we've done pretty well at listening to people and responding to their requests for links. Rod Clark webeditors at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Sat Sep 15 11:55:40 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: WEB: National Day of Mourning for the pitcher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Elaine Chan wrote: > The issue is the SCN webpage or homepage- managed > by webmaster Rod Clark (is that correct?) Elaine, Patrick Fisher (clariun at scn.org) is the webmaster. > Do I have your permission to edit the SCN homepage next > time we (us AMericans) get attacked? Is that what you > mean by "Have you put up anything yourself?" Ask Patrick. He might be willing to put a link, on the Politics menu for example, to a page on your /~er-chan site about this subject. Or I believe you could sign up as an Information Provider. Keep in mind that it's always been harder to convince people that a site should get a link from the home page than from the relevant menu page(s). I last edited the home page on December 9, 2000 and gave it away (permanently) a couple of days later, the day after Nancy's memorial service. > I don't know whether there are any sites on SCN that have > recruited suicide bombers? That is the job of the webmaster > to know what we got linked to (use a search engine-it's > a one liner). So you AMericans feel freedom of speech > means leaving up links to suicide bomber recruitment > or terrorist web-sites? Here's a link that's been on the Politics: Political Parties menu since February 8, 2000. You might find some of the cornucopia of sites that are indexed there to be interesting. Some of these groups are based in the Northwest, and a few in Washington state, which is why this link is there. Look for the links page, which is at http://www.militia-watchdog.org/m1.htm Militia Watchdog http://www.militia-watchdog.org Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Sat Sep 15 12:13:47 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: menu updates [was Re: SCN: Re: The Hunger Site] In-Reply-To: <20010915160728.30120.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patrick Fisher wrote: > Let me look at updating the philanthropy page. There is talk of > splitting up the duties of webmaster/coordinator, so we will see > where that goes and what happens. Patrick, Something else that could really use an update is the primary election information in the Politics section. The School Board candidates, especially, should be there but aren't yet. I updated a few bad URLs and such on the Political Parties page this morning when I looked there for the militia list, for the question about links related to hate groups. But would you please, if possible, see that the School Board candidates go up on the menu? (I'm going to vote for Charles Mas, who was a thoughtful participant in discussions on SCN, back when we had a news server, and got my vote years before he ever ran for office.) The Port Commission and other races would be good to add too, if there's time for it. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 14:09:21 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010915210921.50921.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> I would certainly like to hear from someone who believes in terrorism. I'd like to know why they support such a thing. Wouldn't that be nice? I, for one, would like to know. However, I do know that some commit such acts because they have no other way to express their anger or disagreement with the powers that generally run the world. That does not mean I agree with them. I'm only saying that some people do things because they feel they have no other way to act and be heard. Patrick. --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, er-chan wrote: > > > [....] > > JJ> Before anyone gets carried away in the passions of the > moment, lets have > > JJ> a reality check: First, do we even have any links to "hate > groups"? > > JJ> > > Well do we link to hate groups? > > That's what _I_ asked! Your proposal supposes such links, > but > apparently you don't know of any. > > > JJ> Second, what is the point in removing such links? > > > > They have websites to recruit more people to hate. Some > > people hate so much they act on their hatred to kill > > innocent people at work, the more the better for > > their twisted brain(?). You want to help them recruit?? > > Which misses the primary question here, of whether we have links > to any > such sites. > > Of greater concern is your ready and overly simplistic > attribution of > all that has happened to "twisted brains". To kill thousands is > certainly > despicable. But to so characterize the hatred of many millions of > people--and thereby implicitly dismiss any other explanation--is a > grave > error. It trivializes what has happened, and it precludes both the > possibility of underlying issues to address and any responsibility > for > doing so. > > I think we need to _add_ links to diverse sites, and _especially_ > sites we don't agree with. > > === JJ > ============================================================= > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan at scn.org Sat Sep 15 22:45:46 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 22:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: WEB: National Day of Mourning for the pitcher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Before there was a webeditors list the requests were made. I am not sure if it was when we had the webmasters mailing list, or webmaster mailing list. I did try to access the archives at that time, following the published proceedures, it didn't work; I emailed either you and/or one of the lists and got either no response or was told I didn't have permissions to access archives. Hello Rod Clark (On 09/15/01,9:43am,you wrote Re: Re: SCN: WEB: National... RC> Elaine Chan wrote: RC> > The sites that were refused links(there were some) I don't RC> > have access to the archiuves(the webmaster probably does). RC> > You know that don't you? RC> RC> Elaine, RC> RC> Because you're a member of the webeditors mailing list, you RC> can read through the archives whenever you like. Just send a RC> message to majordomo at scn.org with a blank subject line and put RC> in the message body: RC> RC> index webeditors RC> RC> That will give you a list of the archived message files by RC> month. If anyone else would like to look at the archives of the RC> webeditors list and isn't a list member, I'd be happy to send RC> them to you. The webeditors list is open to anyone interested in RC> the subject, and so far no one has ever been turned down who has RC> asked to join the list. RC> RC> Actually I don't know just what percentage of requests have RC> ended up on the menus. It might be half, or some other number. RC> But I'm willing to let anyone who's interested see SCN's track RC> record on it, both because I think that's the best approach to RC> such a question, and also because I think we've done pretty well RC> at listening to people and responding to their requests for RC> links. RC> RC> Rod Clark RC> webeditors at scn.org RC> RC> _,--------, .-. \ o / elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Sat Sep 15 23:05:16 2001 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:05:16 -0700 Subject: SCN: Re: Re: References: <20010915210921.50921.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005401c13e75$9056fc00$7152fea9@desktop> Actually, if one places responsibility for terrorism as G. W. Bush is now defining it, the United States believes very much in terrorism. What the U.S. did for the Contras in Central America, Bush is accusing Afganistan of doing for Osama Bin Laden now. However, the point is not to say any of this is okay. The point should be to say that FROM NOW ON, no one can support any action or group that targets civilians. ----- Original Message ----- From: patrick To: J. Johnson ; er-chan Cc: ; Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 2:09 PM Subject: SCN: Re: > I would certainly like to hear from someone who believes in > terrorism. I'd like to know why they support such a thing. Wouldn't > that be nice? I, for one, would like to know. > > However, I do know that some commit such acts because they have no > other way to express their anger or disagreement with the powers that > generally run the world. That does not mean I agree with them. I'm > only saying that some people do things because they feel they have no > other way to act and be heard. > > Patrick. > > --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, er-chan wrote: > > > > > [....] > > > JJ> Before anyone gets carried away in the passions of the > > moment, lets have > > > JJ> a reality check: First, do we even have any links to "hate > > groups"? > > > JJ> > > > Well do we link to hate groups? > > > > That's what _I_ asked! Your proposal supposes such links, > > but > > apparently you don't know of any. > > > > > JJ> Second, what is the point in removing such links? > > > > > > They have websites to recruit more people to hate. Some > > > people hate so much they act on their hatred to kill > > > innocent people at work, the more the better for > > > their twisted brain(?). You want to help them recruit?? > > > > Which misses the primary question here, of whether we have links > > to any > > such sites. > > > > Of greater concern is your ready and overly simplistic > > attribution of > > all that has happened to "twisted brains". To kill thousands is > > certainly > > despicable. But to so characterize the hatred of many millions of > > people--and thereby implicitly dismiss any other explanation--is a > > grave > > error. It trivializes what has happened, and it precludes both the > > possibility of underlying issues to address and any responsibility > > for > > doing so. > > > > I think we need to _add_ links to diverse sites, and _especially_ > > sites we don't agree with. > > > > === JJ > > ============================================================= > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > --------------------------------------------------------------- NetZero Platinum Only $9.95 per month! Sign up in September to win one of 30 Hawaiian Vacations for 2! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Sun Sep 16 03:48:37 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 03:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: WEB: National Day of Mourning for the pitcher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Elaine Chan wrote: > Before there was a webeditors list the requests were made. ... Elaine, Well, I don't remember anything like that. But if they were Israeli sites or other foreign sites about Middle east terrorism threats or whatever they were, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have added them to the menus. If they would have been Seattle area links about Jewish life and religion or something of the kind, that would have been different, and actually I have added a few of those to the menus over the past few years. You can have a look at the menu at http://www.scn.org/spiritual/judaism The only two .il sites there are The World Jewish Congress and The Online Jewish Library. Here are the comments at the bottom of the page. The "-rsc" is my initials. These are all Seattle area sites except for for Tikkun Magazine, which is published in the U.S. Sep 27 00 added bikur cholim, eitz or -rsc Aug 28 00 added hilleluw -rsc Aug 12 00 added sjcc -rsc Mar 8 00 added ajcseattle, jewish transcript -rsc Feb 2 00 added WA state jewish hist soc -rsc Oct 25 99 added Tikkun Magazine, temple de hirsch -rsc Sep 13 99 added Seattle Kollel -rsc Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Sun Sep 16 11:49:31 2001 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN's web front page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rod, Please refrain from making comments about the operation of the system that are misleading and incorrect. 'rwrap' is NOT required. It was suggested as a tool, to provide backup in case of errors - NOT required. There have been NO restrictions imposed, either programmatically nor by policy that removes the ability to edit files with vi, pico, etc. I have to agree that our FTP policies have been less that cohesive, but I believe that those issues can be worked. Please check your facts before making statements. -randy On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > Lee, > > > 2) the Operations Committee's criteria for posting information > > For posting updates to the home page, which is what we were > talking about, these criteria include studying and understanding > a pre-processor and post-processor for RCS that is non-standard > and is not used on any other system anywhere - it was programmed > by a member of the SCN Operations Committee. After that, you can > brush up on 'man vi'. Using the Operations Committee's unique > rwrap program is is the only way now that anyone can edit the > home page. > > > 3) since regular text editing and FTP are no longer allowed by Ops > > Because of the above requirement, you can't simply use a > regular text editor to edit the page. FTP is now impossible to > use to update the page, even if you are one of the few people > with group write permissions to do so. The output of 'man rwrap' > is posted below, to show you how this interesting program works. > Sorry for the mismatched formatting. Type 'man rwrap' at the > Unix command line and the formatting will work right when used > interactively on the screen. > > > Rod Clark > > ----- > RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) > > > > NAME > > RWRAP - Wraps RCS processing around file processing > > SYNOPSIS > rwrap [-v|-h] > > rwrap [options] _f_i_l_e > > rwrap [options] -ed _e_d_i_t_o_r _f_i_l_e > > rwrap [options] -cp _s_o_u_r_c_e_f_i_l_e _f_i_l_e > > rwrap [options] -cl _c_o_m_m_a_n_d _f_i_l_e [_m_o_r_e _f_i_l_e_s ...] > > rwrap [options] [-noop|-ante|-post] _f_i_l_e [_m_o_r_e _f_i_l_e_s ...] > > where > > _f_i_l_e is the file to modify (default: with 'vi'). > > _e_d_i_t_o_r is the editor to use. > > _s_o_u_r_c_e_f_i_l_e is the file to copy from. > > _c_o_m_m_a_n_d can be any command, utility, or script. > > _o_p_t_i_o_n_s include: > -_v_c, -_s_a_v_e, -_b_a_c_k_u_p, -_n_o_l_o_c_k, -_n_o_r_e_a_d_m_e, > -_l, -_m "<_t_e_x_t>", -_w <_a_u_t_h_o_r>. > > > PURPOSE > rwrap "wraps" file modification within appropriate and > mostly automatic RCS (Revision Control System) processing. > Its purpose is to provide _s_a_f_e, _s_t_a_n_d_a_r_d, _a_n_d _c_o_n_s_i_s_t_e_n_t _u_s_e > _o_f _R_C_S _a_c_r_o_s_s _t_h_e _o_r_g_a_n_i_z_a_t_i_o_n, with responses appropriate > to various situations that may be encountered, without > requiring the users to bother with the fine points of RCS or > organizational preferred practices. rwrap has been made > highly versatile and as simple as possible to encourage its > use. > > rwrap is specifically designed for use on configuration > files, and especially system configuration files in a > multi-user environment. It has also been designed with > rigorous attention to various possible situations and prob- > lems, in order to be as robust and safe as possible. As a > result it is significantly safer to do RCS with rwrap than > to do it directly with the RCS commands. However, rwrap is > not a total panacea; it does not overcome certain limita- > tions and defects of RCS (see BUGS), nor does it attempt to > handle every possible problem or situation. > > > > Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 1 > > > > > > > RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) > > > > Caution regarding inconsistent use of RCS: _i_n_c_o_n_s_i_s_t_e_n_t _u_s_e > _o_f _R_C_S, _o_r _m_i_x_e_d _u_s_e _a_n_d _n_o_n-_u_s_e, _w_i_l_l _c_a_u_s_e _p_r_o_b_l_e_m_s. The > solution is to use RCS consistently. Note that processes > that are not even RCS-aware can be effectively made RCS- > aware, and in a standard, consistent manner, by running them > inside rwrap using various modes as described below. > > Note also that rwrap leaves the work file(s) read-only. (In > RCS terms, the working file is left "checked-out unlocked".) > Other processes may require certain files to be writeable > ("locked"); see the "-l" option on how this can be handled. > > > DESCRIPTION > For changes in the latest version see CHANGES. > > When called with a single argument of either -v or -h (or > several similar variants), rwrap returns, respectively, the > _v_e_r_s_i_o_n number, or a synopsis of _u_s_a_g_e, and exits. > > In the simplest case, rwrap takes just one argument, the > name of the file to be edited. The editor to use is taken > from the shell variable $EDITOR; if that is not set, the > default editor is vi. > > Or an editor can be explicitly specified on the command line > using the '-ed ' option. > > Or the changes can be made by copying them from another file > using the '-cp ' option. > > Or the changes can be made by any arbitrary command, util- > ity, or script by using the '-cl ' option. > (If arguments are included, the must be included inside > quote marks with the command. This can also be done with > the '-ed' option.) This is very powerful; it allows utili- > ties such as vipw to be run from rwrap. Any arguments that > are to be given to the command have to be enclosed in quota- > tion marks with the command. E.g.: -cl " > " . > > (The main difference between '-ed' and '-cl' is that the > target file is included on the command line for the former, > but not the latter. If the command used needs a filename on > its command line, do it within quotes as described above.) > > The -noop mode ("no operation") does nothing except to > pause; this provides an opportunity to "shell out"--that is, > to use '^Z' to go to a shell--to do _a_n_y kind of processing > desired, and then return (with 'fg') to rwrap to complete > the processing. > > > > > Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 2 > > > > > > > RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) > > > > The -ante mode performs all checks and RCS pre-processing, > sets lock files, then exits. The -post mode completes the > job by doing RCS post-processing and generally cleaning up. > These two modes are for special cases, including cleaning up > after a crashed session; they are not recommended for gen- > eral use. Note that -post expects to find things just as > -ante would have left them--it objects if it is misused. > When these two modes are used an "A" or a "P" is appended at > the end of the log entry to indicate the state of affairs. > > Options may include any, or none, of the following: > > -vc: display version number and continue. > > -save and -backup: (these are synonyms) save a copy of > each file specified on the command line to a backup file > before making any changes or doing any RCS processing. > Backup files are in the same directory as the file, and have > the same name, with a tilde ("~") and number appended. > Numbering starts with one ("1"), and is incremented to avoid > conflicting with any existing files. The full name of the > backup file is reported to the user; the backup number alone > is recorded in the log file. Backups are made automatically > if a file has been changed since it was last archived > (checked-in). > > Note that rwrap does not remove backup files. > > -l: leaves work file(s) checked-out "locked" (see RCS > TERMS AND CONCEPTS) with write permission. (The default is > "unlocked", read-only.) This is automatic if '/etc/passwd' > or '/etc/group' are specified. Note that leaving an RCS > lock on a file may required explict unlocking (with 'rcs -u > ') prior to running rwrap. > > -nolock: turns off the use of a lock file (see FILES). > This is for use with utilities that set a lock file them- > selves that conflicts with the style of lock file set by > rwrap itself. Applies only to the first specified file. > > -noreadme: when wrap encounters a "README" file (see > FILES), it normally displays it (up to 20 lines), and asks > whether to continue. The intent is to respect the conven- > tion that a README file has important information regarding > the target file, and that based on such information the user > might want to abort the operation. Where frequent exposure > to unchanged information becomes tedious, the -noreadme > option can be used. When specified, only the first line of > README file is displayed. If the README file has not been > changed in more than 65 days, rwrap continues without paus- > ing. However, if the modification time is more recent than > that rwrap aborts. This is to protect against blunders > > > > Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 3 > > > > > > > RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) > > > > resulting from unawareness of new information. Please be > careful: use of -noreadme is an _i_m_p_l_i_c_i_t, _a_n_d _p_o_s_s_i_b_l_y > _f_a_l_s_e, _a_s_s_u_m_p_t_i_o_n that the README file has no information of > importance. Use of -noreadme is _n_o_t _r_e_c_o_m_m_e_n_d_e_d if you have > not recently read the relevant README files. > > -m "": corresponds to the similar option of ci. > This applies only when rwrap is given more than one file > name (see below). rwrap will use the supplied (must > be quoted if it contains spaces or shell meta-characters) as > the log message when checking in the additional files. > (Else it says "Changes consequent to changes to" and names > the target file.) Note that (unlike ci) a space is required > after the "-m". > > -w : corresponds to the similar option of ci used > to specify the author. This is effective only for > superusers, and the only effect is to suppress the request > to enter a valid login name. Note that (unlike ci) a space > is required after the "-w". > > In all cases rwrap requires the name of at least one file to > be processed. With some options rwrap now handles addi- > tional file names (" ...") to which RCS process- > ing will also be done. > > File names can be prefixed with relative or absolute paths; > rwrap resolves all filenames to their absolute pathname. > rwrap also understands the "tilde" ("~[]" conven- > tion. > > Note that several of rwrap's modes are built to "wrap" RCS > processing around programs and processes that are ignorant > of RCS. In particular, a protection-deficient process (pro- > gram, utility, or script) can be run inside rwrap using the > -cl option. > > For example: rwrap -nolock -cl prog rwfile would check out > the file 'rwfile', then run 'prog' (which presumably modi- > fies the file in some way), then check in the file. 'prog' > sees a writeable file; it does not see RCS, nor (in this > case) even a lock file. > > For more complex cases, perhaps where a process is not redu- > cible to a script, use the -ante and -post modes. E.g.: > > rwrap -ante file1 file2 file3 > [complex and mystical file processing] > rwrap -post file1 file2 file3 > > would first do various checks and then anterior RCS process- > ing. After the files had been processed, running rwrap in > > > > Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 4 > > > > > > > RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) > > > > -post mode would do the posterior RCS processing. > > In all modes a great deal of file checking is done to ensure > proper processing. These include handling of _s_y_m_b_o_l_i_c > _l_i_n_k_s, _h_a_r_d-_l_i_n_k_s, _n_o_n-_w_r_i_t_e_a_b_l_e files or directories, > reporting any "_R_E_A_D_M_E" or "_l_o_c_k" files found, and setting > lock files as appropriate:: > > > For any file name that is neither a regular file nor a > symbolic link (such as _d_i_r_e_c_t_o_r_i_e_s or _d_e_v_i_c_e_s), or is > not writeable by the user, rwrap aborts. > > If a "_h_a_r_d-_l_i_n_k" is found (i.e., a file with more than > one inode linked to it), rwrap aborts. There is no > alternative here: both co and ci break hard-links, > resulting in separate and independent files. You can > have your file with multiple hard-links (multiple > names), or you can have your file in configuration con- > trol. But, under RCS, you cannot have both. (Consider > making one a symlink.) > > If a "_R_E_A_D_M_E" file (with a name in the form of > <_t_a_r_g_e_t>._R_E_A_D_M_E) is found, and -noreadme has not been > specified, rwrap displays the first twenty lines, and > asks the user whether to continue, or not. The intent > is to respect the convention that a README file has > important information regarding the target file, and > that based on such information the user might want to > abort the operation. > > If a "_S_T_O_P" file (see FILES) is found, rwrap aborts. > This is intended for cases where processing of a file > is deemed inadvisable, especially where a user might > not be attentive to polite admonishments in a README > file. > > If a _l_o_c_k _f_i_l_e (with a name of the form <_t_a_r_g_e_t>._l_o_c_k > is found, rwrap aborts. (Except in -post mode; see > below for details.) This is to avoid conflicts with > other users or processess that are (or were) accessing > the file. The contents of the file are displayed; > hopefully this contains information about who set the > lock and when. The user is advised to resolve the con- > flict, or to remove the (possibly stale) lock file. > > _S_y_m_b_o_l_i_c _l_i_n_k_s ("symlinks") are resolved to whatever > they are linked to (after checking for README and lock > files), and the file validation checks repeated for the > new target. (The symlinks themselves are not under > configuration control. This is because RCS fails to > distinguish the symlink from what the symlink points > > > > Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 5 > > > > > > > RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) > > > > to; co and ci would destroy the symlink.) > > If the file does not yet exist, rwrap also checks that > you have _w_r_i_t_e _a_c_c_e_s_s to the specified directory. > > _l_o_c_k _f_i_l_e_s (see FILES) are set at each symbolic link > encountered, and for the fully resolved filename. > (Unless '-nolock' is specifed--see above.) > > > Once all of the supplied file names have been fully resolved > and checked, rwrap will then check for: > > > - a writeable RCS directory. > > - unarchived changes. > > - RCS locks. > > > If any _u_n_a_r_c_h_i_v_e_d _c_h_a_n_g_e_s or _R_C_S _l_o_c_k_s are found rwrap > queries the user for instructions. > > In -post mode: It is an error if the expected _w_o_r_k _f_i_l_e_s, > _l_o_c_k _f_i_l_e_s, and _R_C_S _l_o_c_k_s are _n_o_t found, or if another user > owns the RCS lock-- rwrap expects to find matters just as > they would be left from -ante mode. The contents of any > lock files found will be displayed, and the user asked if > they are current, consistent, and what is expected. (I.e., > check that someone else has not set a lock file.) The check > for unarchived changes is not made--such differences are > expected. > > Otherwise: the user is asked how to handle any unarchived > changes, and whether to break any RCS locks. (The presump- > tion is that they are stale; it is up to the user--sigh--to > detect and respond appropriately when they are not stale.) > > > rwrap always puts the RCS archive file into an 'RCS' sub- > directory below the directory of the target file. If the > 'RCS' directory does not exist, rwrap will attempt to create > it. If it can't, or if it fails, or if an existing RCS > directory is not writeable, rwrap aborts. > > rwrap also warns if an RCS archive file exists in the same > directory as the target. (This may indicate an earliar > archive, or a failure of some kind). If the (possibly new) > RCS directory does not have a copy of that archive file, > rwrap will offer to move it. > > > > > Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 6 > > > > > > > RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) > > > > rwrap creates a _l_o_c_k _f_i_l_e for each file being processed, and > for each symbolic link that was encountered in resolving the > supplied file name. These files contain the username of the > rwrap process and the time. They will be removed when rwrap > finishes. > > The appropriate RCS processing depends on the RCS status of > the file. This is somewhat complex, but can be reduced to > four cases: > > > No archive file, no working file: > No pre-processing; do an "initial check-in" of file after- > wards. > > > No archive file, but working file exists: > Working file already exists, but has not yet been checked > into RCS. rwrap notes this, and will do an initial check- > in. > > > Archive file exists, but not working file: > File has been previously archived. Check out a clean > copy. > > > Both archive file and working file exist: > File has been previously archived, but a working file has > been checked out, possibly with an RCS lock, and possibly > with outstanding changes. This is the interesting case. > > If the file is locked (see RCS TERMS AND CONCEPTS), rwrap > will display who locked it (probably "root"!), and offers > to break the lock. (Or it aborts.) > > If rcsdiff shows any differences from the last checked in > revision, rwrap offers to display them. (This uses less. > Enter q to quit.) The user then has a choice to save the > changes, remove them, or quit. If the changes are saved, > they will be checked in. The changes (in diff format) > will also be stored in a "dump" file (see FILES). > > Note that the handling of unarchived changes is problemat- > ical. On one hand, we need the documenation of what > changes are made when and by whom. Especially by whom, so > that any questions about the changes themselves, or of > their legitimacy (!!), can be referred quickly and > directly to their putative author. Therefore, by agreed > upon policy, checking in of changes is required. Any > changes not checked in are suspect. Even if they are not > actually malevolent in intent, they are still corrosive of > > > > Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 7 > > > > > > > RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) > > > > proper administration. > > On the other hand, and especially during the transition > from mostly non-conforming practice to conforming prac- > tice, inconsistent use of RCS could result in loss of > vital changes. Note that whether you save "bad" changes, > or remove "good" changes, you can get into big trouble (or > cause big problems) either way. The proper response > depends on the circumstances. Be cautious, act prudently. > > > (Policy note: In Operations we have decided that: if one > person makes critical changes to file, but does not properly > check them in, and another person does a co that removes > those changes, whereupon something crashes, the _f_a_u_l_t _s_h_a_l_l > _b_e _o_n _t_h_e _p_e_r_s_o_n _n_o_t _c_h_e_c_k_i_n_g-_i_n those changes. But it > would be better to not screw-up in the first place, so > please use rwrap.) > > > After all the validation and preprocessing is done rwrap > performs whatever process is appropriate to the mode-- > presumably modifying the specified files--and then asks > whether to "Save" the changes (that is, to check them into > the archive), or to "Undo" (as far as possible) all changes. > In the latter case rwrap will delete any new files (that did > not exist before). It then attempts to restore the initial > working file from a backup copy (if any), or check out the > last revision of a previously archived file. The default > here is dependent on the exit code returned by the process > that modified the file: if an error was reported the > default is to Undo, else the the default is to Save. Note > that various failure or abort terminations wil attempt to do > an "Undo". > > Checked in changes are given the user's login name as the > author. Superusers (uid 0) are asked at the beginning of > the process for a valid non-superuser login name, unless it > already supplied with the -w option or otherwise determined. > Superusers are also asked at the end if they want to add a > journal entry. > > > OUTPUT > The various RCS commands tend to be verbose. To make what > is happening more comprehensible, rwrap inserts lines (gen- > erally begining with "----" for clarity) to identify each > stage of processing, and each file being processed. Lines > beginning with ">" are requests for user input. Lines > beginning with a star ("*") are error messages. When abort- > ing rwrap will report the numeric codes of every problem it > detected. > > > > Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 8 > > > > > > > RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) > > > > Note that other output, including error messages, may be > returned by external programs (such as editors or scripts). > Be careful to distinguish such output from rwrap's output. > > > LOGGING > Each session of rwrap that passes the initial syntax and > environment checks is logged in the 'rwrap.log' file. This > is in /var/log for all superuser's (providing a convenient > record of files that have been modified by "root"), else in > the user's home directory. The log record for each session > includes a time stamp, and a list of each file specified. > The files are listed by their resolved absolute pathnames. > If the basename of this differs from what was specified on > the command line, the latter is included within parentheses. > If rwrap is run in -ante or -post mode an "A" or a "P", > respectively, will be appended to the line. > > Additional records (using the same time stamp as the first > record) may be added to indicate if unarchived changes > ("Diffs") were found, or to record the backup number of any > backup files. These are listed in the same order as the > files they refer to. If rwrap fails or the user quits, > another record will be added with the error code returned. > (This only generally indicates the problem or problems > encountered; the user is not relieved of recording any prob- > lem codes returned.) > > For superusers: the user name to which the changes are being > attributed is logged, and a record (with the login name of > the superuser in square brackets) added to that user's log > file. > > > FILE OWNER AND GROUP > One of the problems with RCS is that the original "owner" > and "group" of the work and archive file are not preserved > by the co, ci, or rcs commands. (Instead of modifying a > file, the RCS commands create a new file to replace the old > one.) rwrap now collects the uid and gid of each file, and > attempts to restore them at the end of the session. (Actu- > ally it collects the uid and gid of the archive file, or the > work file if the archive file does not exist, and applies > that to both the work and archive files.) Note that while a > superuser can freely change the owner and group of any file, > regular users can only change the group of a file they own > to a group of which they are a member. So if you have > write-access to a directory (and if you don't the RCS com- > mands will fail), you can replace a file even if you are not > a member of its group. But in that case you will not be > able to restore the group id. (Some day rwrap may provide a > warning when this is about to happen.) > > > > Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 9 > > > > > > > RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) > > > > Note also that in -post mode rwrap does not have knowledge > of what the uid and gid may have been earlier: if you do > something that changes either, that's what will be pro- > pagated. > > Backup copies of the a work file will generally have the > original owner and group attributes. (This uses the '-p' > ["preserve"] option of the cp command.) But if rwrap tries > to restore a work file (such as with the "Undo" option) it > will attempt to give it the owner and group attributes of > the archive file. > > > CHANGES > A new option, "-save", can be specified to save (make back- > ups) all of the files specified on the command line at the > outset. (See FILES). This is done automatically for any > file that has been changed since it was last archived > (checked in). > > rwrap now attempts to restore the original "group" of the > files for all users (not just the superuser), and also the > "owner" when run by the superuser. See FILE OWNER AND > GROUP, above. > > > RCS TERMS AND CONCEPTS > rwrap is essentially nothing more than a means to an end, > that end being the application of RCS (Revision Control Sys- > tem) commands in a suitable manner. While rwrap tries to > shield the user from various complexities of using RCS, it > is nonetheless highly advantageous to understand the follow- > ing RCS terms and concepts. > > The _w_o_r_k _f_i_l_e is the file (files) that is being worked on, > whose revisions are being archived. The _a_r_c_h_i_v_e _f_i_l_e is > where RCS keeps the information it needs to track the revi- > sions to the work file. Normally the archive file is of > significance to the user only to the extent of whether it > exists or not. > > _C_h_e_c_k-_i_n is the process of _a_r_c_h_i_v_i_n_g the current _r_e_v_i_s_i_o_n of > the work file so that it can be accessed in the future. > (Normally with the ci command.) _C_h_e_c_k-_o_u_t is the process of > restoring a work file to the state of some previously > archived revision. (Normally with the co command, but some > usages of ci also do a check-out.) In software development > environments (and the default behavior of RCS) work files > are often removed when they are checked-in, and checked-out > only when needed. On the other hand, configuration files > (for which rwrap is intended) generally should not be > removed; rwrap therefore leaves the working file "checked- > > > > Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 10 > > > > > > > RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) > > > > out". > > RCS implements _l_o_c_k_s to indicate when someone has been given > access for modifying the work file (and the file given write > permission). (This is to be distinguished from a _l_o_c_k _f_i_l_e, > to be discussed shortly.) rwrap handles getting a lock. For > another user to obtain write-access to the file (through > RCS), either the first user must relinquish the lock (such > as by checking-in the file), or the other user must _b_r_e_a_k > _t_h_e _l_o_c_k. rwrap handles all the details of doing this, but > the decision to break a lock, and the responsibility for any > consequences, necessarily lie with the user. > > For more information about RCS see the man pages for rcsin- > tro(1), ci(1), co(1), and rcs(1). > > Note that _R_C_S _l_o_c_k_s (described above) are to be dis- > tinguished from the _l_o_c_k _f_i_l_e_s that rwrap uses. The former > are internal to, and meaningful only in the context of, RCS. > The latter is a general convention for indicating to other > processes and users that a file is being accessed, and sub- > ject to modification. rwrap respects "lock" files, sets > them, and removes them when done. See FILES. > > > RCS PARAMETERS > As rwrap is designed specifically to do configuration con- > trol on configuration files, it always leaves a copy of the > "working file" checked out. Generally it leaves the working > file "unlocked"--that is, read-only--to deter changing it > outside of RCS, and (hopefully) as a gentle hint that the > file is under configuration control. It will leave the > specified file(s) "locked", with read-write permissions, if > the '-l' option is specified, or if '/etc/passwd' or > '/etc/group' are specified. > > Check-ins always include the user's login name (or a valid > login name supplied by superuers) as author (ci's -w > option). This identifies who is responsible for the > changes, and to whom to ask regarding the changes, their > legitimacy, or the validity of the attribution. > > Check-in's are always "forced"; that is, the file is always > checked in (if "Saved") as a new revision even if there were > no changes. This is so multiple files handled as a set will > show when changes were made to any file in the set, and to > simplify user interaction. > > Check-out's are also forced, again to simplify user interac- > tion. > > Note that the user's RCSINIT environmental variable, if set, > > > > Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 11 > > > > > > > RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) > > > > will affect the RCS programs used by rwrap, and could cause > rwrap to fail. > > > RETURN CODES > rwrap returns 0 if no errors are detected (but see BUGS), or > an integer indicating where it aborted or the user quit. > When processing more than one file it will check all of the > files specified, but generally will find only one problem or > error per file. Before exiting it will display the numeric > codes of all problems detected. The last two digits indi- > cate the specific error, and any preceeding digits indicate > which file (in the order specified on the command line). > The return code is generally the first error code found. > > > FILES > A given file name (with optional pathname, relative or abso- > lute) is resolved through any symbolic links to identify the > actual target file. rwrap then references: > > _t_a_r_g_e_t - the file to be changed (after resolving any > symlinks). > > _t_a_r_g_e_t,v - possibly an old archive file. > > RCS - subdirectory for RCS archive files. > > RCS/_t_a_r_g_e_t,v - the RCS archive file for _t_a_r_g_e_t. > > _t_a_r_g_e_t.README - has information pertaining to _t_a_r_g_e_t. > _s_y_m_l_i_n_k.README - same, but relative to any symlink files > found; could be in a different directory. Whenever rwrap > finds a symlink it looks for an associated README file. > > _t_a_r_g_e_t.lock - the "lock" file. > > _t_a_r_g_e_t~_n_n - general form of backup file(s). > > _t_a_r_g_e_t.xx - temporarily holds unrecorded changes. > > _t_a_r_g_e_t.XX - accumulated unrecorded changes. > > _t_a_r_g_e_t.STOP - the "STOP" file. > > These preceeding files are relative to the directory con- > taining _t_a_r_g_e_t, except there may be additional README or > lock files relative to any symbolic links found. > > /$HOME/rwrap.log - log file. > > /var/log/rwrap.log - log file for superusers. > > > > Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 12 > > > > > > > RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) > > > > REQUIRES > rwrap is now a unitary Perl script, and requires no other > programs except for the RCS programs (rlog, rcs, rcsdiff, > co, and ci), and other standard Unix programs. > > > > SEE ALSO > See also: rcsintro(1), ci(1), co(1), rcsdiff(1), rlog(1), > and rcs(1). > > > BUGS, DEFECTS, AND UNRESOLVED ISSUES > There are still some odd problems when used as root in > SunOS. > > There may be problems with specific terminal (stty) set- > tings. > > Can't protect against mishaps where RCS is used incon- > sistently. > > Unable to entirely transcend the deficiencies of RCS, such > as destroying symbolic links, hard links, and existing file > ownership. > > Maintaining owner and group attributes is only partly > solved. There should be some way of finessing RCS to > preserve the owner and group of an existing file; perhaps by > substituting another file. > > Does not distinguish between an RCS lock on the current > revision of a file, and an RCS lock on some other revision > or branch. > > Lock files can't protect against other processes or users > that don't respect lock files, or come in through a dif- > ferent symlink. > > Ability to verify the true identity of a superuser is lim- > ited. > > Unable to remove all sources of user error. > > There are undoubtably some subtle improvements to made in > regards of permissions. > > Too much information displayed on the screen. Wait--that's > a feature! > > > > > > > Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 13 > > > > > > > RWRAP(1) USER COMMANDS RWRAP(1) > > > > AUTHOR > Written by "JJ". Send comments to jj at scn.org. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sun Release 4.1 Last change: 21 March 2001 14 > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Sun Sep 16 13:21:08 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN's web front page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Randy Groves wrote: > 'rwrap' is NOT required. It was suggested as a tool, to provide backup in > case of errors - NOT required. > > There have been NO restrictions imposed, either programmatically nor by > policy that removes the ability to edit files with vi, pico, etc. Randy, That is not true, on both counts. The home page has total no-write permissions for the members of the topics group, who if your ststement were true would have write access to edit it with pico or other text editors. But they do NOT have that access. See for yourself: 4 -r-xr-xr-x 1 guests topics 3728 Aug 21 13:12 index.html* The ONLY way that the home page can be updated is by using rwrap. You are misleading everyone when you say this is optional. It is also now required by policy to use rwrap. I asked the acting Executive Director on Thursday, "Will you remove rwrap so that Patrick can update the home page?" The answer was "no." Because Patrick couldn't FTP the home page file last week (because of the no-write permissions that block FTP), he asked me for help with rwrap, which I tried to give him based on my recollection of an earlier version of rwrap, but it wasn't enough to get the page up. The page still isn't up. And this is the actual, truthful reason. That is the answer to the question that the three volunteers - Irene, Lee and Elaine - asked on this list. Communicating with ourselves, and with all the volunteers, is vitally important, and it can't be left to the PR efforts of only a few people in top positions. You and I both were confused about this, because of the lack of forthright communications with volunteers about the situation. Content is being sacrificed because technical considerations like this are being placed first by a leadership with a too-stubborn technical focus. And this is the future of SCN's site, and of SCN itself, before our eyes. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Sun Sep 16 13:33:29 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: menu updates [was Re: SCN: Re: The Hunger Site] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Patrick, This morning's updates to the What's New page include all the Information Providers that I know about who have recently published election-related information. The Stonewall Democrats have rated primary candidates, but that info isn't up on their site. If you know of other sites hosted on SCN who have lately added primary election content, please add them to the What's New page on or before Tuesday. So far, we have: ----- September 16 Citizens' Campaign for Commercial-Free School [link] CCCS Newsletter: August, 2001 [link] In the August newsletter, CCCS reviews the school board candidates running in the September 18 primary election, and endorses three of them. League of Women Voters of Seattle [link] How to Register and Vote [link] Public Forum on Ballot Issues Thursday, October 4 from 7:30 - 9:00 p.m. Seattle First Baptist Church at Seneca and Harvard Free to the public! For more information, contact lwvseattle at aol.com 25th Annual Political Party & Auction Sunday, October 28, 2001 WestCoast Grand Hotel, Emerald Ballroom, 5th Floor "This is a nonpartisan event attended by members, supporters, office holders and candidates. ... Reservation Deadline: October 12, 2001" Seattle Metropolitan Elections Committee [link] SNOMEC (Snohomish County Elections Committee) [link] "SEAMEC is a non-partisan civic organization that rates candidates running for political and judicial office in Seattle, King County, and the State of Washington. SEAMEC evaluates candidates on their knowledge of, record of proven activism for, and commitment to the concerns of the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered (GLBT) communities. ... "Fifty-nine candidates accepted invitations for face-to-face interviews in Seattle and Federal Way, answering questions about civil rights, youth, family and health issues and general awareness. ... "SNOMEC, a sister organization based in Snohomish County conducted ten interviews, rated twenty candidates for the Washington State Legislature and the Snohomish County Council and endorsed two of them." University District Food Bank [link] Take a Bite Out of Hunger Benefit and Silent Auction Thursday, September 20 from 6:00 - 8:30 p.m. Rain Forest Cafe at the west end of Woodland Park Zoo "This event is the biggest fundraiser for the Food Bank. The auction features donated items by local merchants, artists, restaurants, board members and food bank supporters. ... For tickets or to donate to the Auction please call the Food Bank at 523-7060." ----- Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Sun Sep 16 14:16:25 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: Re: In-Reply-To: <005401c13e75$9056fc00$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: Hello everybody, My daughter & son-in-law are alive. They formerly lived directly at GROUND ZERO. Like so many thousands of residents inthe neighborhood, they are now homeless displaced people. The American Red Cross and the Salvation Army have been absolutely wonderful and helpful. PLEASE SEND THEM MONEY so they can continue with the help they are provided. Thank you, Irene Mogol please pass this on to any not on the address list. Thanx again. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From femme2 at scn.org Sun Sep 16 14:33:12 2001 From: femme2 at scn.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN's web front page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't know what's going on lately. I do know that I offered to take over some of the tasks that NancyK had been doing before she died and was given such an absurd runaround that I finally decided it was pointless to volunteer. Among other requirements - I had to speak directly with Nancy! I am not surprised that SCN is hurting for cash. In fact, when I saw the money plea, I thought I knew just how Dr. Lewinski felt when the Democratic Party asked for his check. Lorraine ------------------- On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > Randy Groves wrote: > > 'rwrap' is NOT required. It was suggested as a tool, to provide backup in > > case of errors - NOT required. > > > > There have been NO restrictions imposed, either programmatically nor by > > policy that removes the ability to edit files with vi, pico, etc. > > Randy, > > That is not true, on both counts. The home page has total > no-write permissions for the members of the topics group, who if > your ststement were true would have write access to edit it with > pico or other text editors. But they do NOT have that access. > See for yourself: > > 4 -r-xr-xr-x 1 guests topics 3728 Aug 21 13:12 index.html* > > The ONLY way that the home page can be updated is by using > rwrap. You are misleading everyone when you say this is > optional. > > It is also now required by policy to use rwrap. I asked the > acting Executive Director on Thursday, "Will you remove rwrap so > that Patrick can update the home page?" The answer was "no." > > Because Patrick couldn't FTP the home page file last week > (because of the no-write permissions that block FTP), he asked > me for help with rwrap, which I tried to give him based on my > recollection of an earlier version of rwrap, but it wasn't > enough to get the page up. The page still isn't up. And this is > the actual, truthful reason. That is the answer to the question > that the three volunteers - Irene, Lee and Elaine - asked on > this list. > > Communicating with ourselves, and with all the volunteers, is > vitally important, and it can't be left to the PR efforts of > only a few people in top positions. You and I both were confused > about this, because of the lack of forthright communications > with volunteers about the situation. Content is being sacrificed > because technical considerations like this are being placed > first by a leadership with a too-stubborn technical focus. And > this is the future of SCN's site, and of SCN itself, before our > eyes. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 14:48:16 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN's web front page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010916214816.55930.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> I think we should not make a mountain out of a molehill. rwrap is intended to archive page changes and to track who changed what on this multi-person system. It is not a big deal and it is a minor quibble. Sure, I would love to just ftp a file up, but rwrap is not an issue. What is a big deal is getting familiar with the vi editor or pico, neither of which I love with a passion. Neither of which require a large amount of training to learn. I did run into a small problem with updating the page in reference to rwrap. I emailed JJ on in just a moment ago and it should be fixed pretty quickly. I hope that people don't feel I am taking sides and being opinionated on this topic. I am saying that there are, of course, only a couple of people, at the most, who will be updating the homepage. With that, rwrap should be of little concern to anyone else. The homepage will be updated as quickly as possible. Patrick Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator --- Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > > I don't know what's going on lately. I do know that I offered > to take over some of the tasks that NancyK had been doing > before she died and was given such an absurd runaround that > I finally decided it was pointless to volunteer. Among other > requirements - I had to speak directly with Nancy! > > I am not surprised that SCN is hurting for cash. In fact, > when I saw the money plea, I thought I knew just how > Dr. Lewinski felt when the Democratic Party asked for his > check. > > Lorraine > ------------------- > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > > Randy Groves wrote: > > > 'rwrap' is NOT required. It was suggested as a tool, to > provide backup in > > > case of errors - NOT required. > > > > > > There have been NO restrictions imposed, either > programmatically nor by > > > policy that removes the ability to edit files with vi, pico, > etc. > > > > Randy, > > > > That is not true, on both counts. The home page has total > > no-write permissions for the members of the topics group, who if > > your ststement were true would have write access to edit it with > > pico or other text editors. But they do NOT have that access. > > See for yourself: > > > > 4 -r-xr-xr-x 1 guests topics 3728 Aug 21 13:12 > index.html* > > > > The ONLY way that the home page can be updated is by using > > rwrap. You are misleading everyone when you say this is > > optional. > > > > It is also now required by policy to use rwrap. I asked the > > acting Executive Director on Thursday, "Will you remove rwrap so > > that Patrick can update the home page?" The answer was "no." > > > > Because Patrick couldn't FTP the home page file last week > > (because of the no-write permissions that block FTP), he asked > > me for help with rwrap, which I tried to give him based on my > > recollection of an earlier version of rwrap, but it wasn't > > enough to get the page up. The page still isn't up. And this is > > the actual, truthful reason. That is the answer to the question > > that the three volunteers - Irene, Lee and Elaine - asked on > > this list. > > > > Communicating with ourselves, and with all the volunteers, is > > vitally important, and it can't be left to the PR efforts of > > only a few people in top positions. You and I both were confused > > about this, because of the lack of forthright communications > > with volunteers about the situation. Content is being sacrificed > > because technical considerations like this are being placed > > first by a leadership with a too-stubborn technical focus. And > > this is the future of SCN's site, and of SCN itself, before our > > eyes. > > > > Rod Clark > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 14:58:40 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: A "thumbs-up" for SCN - update Message-ID: <20010916215840.98888.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> I wanted to provide an update on SCN. A great deal is going on with the site. Things do not happen overnight and such is the case with SCN. Volunteers are putting in a great deal of time and work into getting SCN to it's next stage. Besides the wonderful job that was done with the move from the old library to the new temporary library: SCN is getting a new look: The website is going to look very nice. I am working with the board and the other volunteers and the graphics guru, Hugh Miller" to create a site look that will make it quite appealing. SCN is getting an updated logo: This is an issue with everyone. A big issue. We are working on getting a new logo based on designs created by Hugh, by others outside of SCN and from input from anyone who wants to give input. (A side note: There will be a number of logos put up on SCN for people to make comments on. One logo that is yet to be done: One that is based on the elements of the current logo.) SCN is working on getting content: We have a number of ideas for people to provide content. I have some ideas that I have wanted to implement. One of those is Seazine. Now with my scheduled freed up quite a bit, I am going to give that a lot of attention. A great deal is going on. I hope that people can provide their input, create content, and know that SCN is going to be a great place. A great destination. SCN is incredible. I love the local links. There is nothing like it anywhere else in the Seattle area. Indespensible. People can be critical all they want of SCN, but it is a gem in the local online world. We can make it a much better place. I hope we can all focus on doing what we can do with the site. We have a lot of capable and wonderful volunteers who have made SCN great. Patrick Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 15:16:12 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN's web front page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010916221612.58034.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Lorraine, What is it that you wanted to do? Do you still want to do it? I'm sorry that the process didn't flow quickly enough. Please let me know what you are interested in doing. I have tried to provide information on what is going on at SCN. If I need to update everyone more often and with more information, then please let me know. Also, please let me know which lists to send updates to so that everyone gets the information. Of course, that gives me another idea. We can create a new page, linked to the front page for the volunteers. Is that something we want to do, or should we reserve that information to these lists? That is, how public do we want to be on what is going on for the site and volunteers? Thanks, Patrick Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator --- Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > > I don't know what's going on lately. I do know that I offered > to take over some of the tasks that NancyK had been doing > before she died and was given such an absurd runaround that > I finally decided it was pointless to volunteer. Among other > requirements - I had to speak directly with Nancy! > > I am not surprised that SCN is hurting for cash. In fact, > when I saw the money plea, I thought I knew just how > Dr. Lewinski felt when the Democratic Party asked for his > check. > > Lorraine > ------------------- > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > > Randy Groves wrote: > > > 'rwrap' is NOT required. It was suggested as a tool, to > provide backup in > > > case of errors - NOT required. > > > > > > There have been NO restrictions imposed, either > programmatically nor by > > > policy that removes the ability to edit files with vi, pico, > etc. > > > > Randy, > > > > That is not true, on both counts. The home page has total > > no-write permissions for the members of the topics group, who if > > your ststement were true would have write access to edit it with > > pico or other text editors. But they do NOT have that access. > > See for yourself: > > > > 4 -r-xr-xr-x 1 guests topics 3728 Aug 21 13:12 > index.html* > > > > The ONLY way that the home page can be updated is by using > > rwrap. You are misleading everyone when you say this is > > optional. > > > > It is also now required by policy to use rwrap. I asked the > > acting Executive Director on Thursday, "Will you remove rwrap so > > that Patrick can update the home page?" The answer was "no." > > > > Because Patrick couldn't FTP the home page file last week > > (because of the no-write permissions that block FTP), he asked > > me for help with rwrap, which I tried to give him based on my > > recollection of an earlier version of rwrap, but it wasn't > > enough to get the page up. The page still isn't up. And this is > > the actual, truthful reason. That is the answer to the question > > that the three volunteers - Irene, Lee and Elaine - asked on > > this list. > > > > Communicating with ourselves, and with all the volunteers, is > > vitally important, and it can't be left to the PR efforts of > > only a few people in top positions. You and I both were confused > > about this, because of the lack of forthright communications > > with volunteers about the situation. Content is being sacrificed > > because technical considerations like this are being placed > > first by a leadership with a too-stubborn technical focus. And > > this is the future of SCN's site, and of SCN itself, before our > > eyes. > > > > Rod Clark > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Sun Sep 16 15:47:27 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN's web front page In-Reply-To: <20010916214816.55930.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > ... What is a big deal is getting familiar with the vi editor > or pico, neither of which I love with a passion. Neither of > which require a large amount of training to learn. Patrick, Today fewer and fewer sites are rushing backwards to the Unix of the 1980s (vi, etc.). Content editing tools are shifting more and more to the Web as a platform, so that content editors never have to see the arcana of the raw operating system command line. > I did run into a small problem with updating the page in reference > to rwrap. I emailed JJ on in just a moment ago and it should be > fixed pretty quickly. I'm glad JJ was there to help you, and wasn't on vacation for thre weeks or something of the kind. For this and other reasons, JJ is now the absolutely indispensable person in the chain of events needed to edit your file successfully. I've seen the Unix programming code in rwrap, and it might take a lot of time for anyone unfamiliar with the program to read and study it enough to fix other problems that might come up besides the one you just mentioned that turned out to be preventing the file update. It seems that we have created a dependence on exactly one single programmer on earth to fix these kinds of problems. This is the opposite of the general trend today toward widely adopted and widely supported open source tools based on the Web platform. > I hope that people don't feel I am taking sides and being > opinionated on this topic. I am saying that there are, of course, > only a couple of people, at the most, who will be updating the > homepage. With that, rwrap should be of little concern to anyone > else. Say hi to Kristen for me, or whoever the other person is. When she learns rwrap and vi, you can send me a postcard at this address: Rod Clark [clonereg-A237G-234] 1233-B-44678-G Plaza of the Year 2317 New New New Bothell, Mars 98109124-23764565 Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Sun Sep 16 16:38:53 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 16:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: A "thumbs-up" for SCN - update In-Reply-To: <20010916215840.98888.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patrick, Thanks for the update. Here is a question. When we get to look at the new logos. Can we vote on them *AND* can the current logo be one of the ones we could choose? Or is that a board decision? I.e. is the current one specifically not allowed to be a contender? -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > I wanted to provide an update on SCN. > > A great deal is going on with the site. Things do not happen > overnight and such is the case with SCN. Volunteers are putting in a > great deal of time and work into getting SCN to it's next stage. > > Besides the wonderful job that was done with the move from the old > library to the new temporary library: > > SCN is getting a new look: The website is going to look very nice. I > am working with the board and the other volunteers and the graphics > guru, Hugh Miller" to create a site look that will make it quite > appealing. > > SCN is getting an updated logo: This is an issue with everyone. A big > issue. We are working on getting a new logo based on designs created > by Hugh, by others outside of SCN and from input from anyone who > wants to give input. (A side note: There will be a number of logos > put up on SCN for people to make comments on. One logo that is yet to > be done: One that is based on the elements of the current logo.) > > SCN is working on getting content: We have a number of ideas for > people to provide content. I have some ideas that I have wanted to > implement. One of those is Seazine. Now with my scheduled freed up > quite a bit, I am going to give that a lot of attention. > > A great deal is going on. I hope that people can provide their input, > create content, and know that SCN is going to be a great place. A > great destination. > > SCN is incredible. I love the local links. There is nothing like it > anywhere else in the Seattle area. Indespensible. People can be > critical all they want of SCN, but it is a gem in the local online > world. > > We can make it a much better place. I hope we can all focus on doing > what we can do with the site. We have a lot of capable and wonderful > volunteers who have made SCN great. > > Patrick > Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 16:41:59 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 16:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN's web front page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010916234159.39168.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Any competent and savvy web person should know Unix. They should know that as much as they should know HTML. Not a guru, but an understanding of how Unix works. Unix is the operating system of choice for security and stability. I would not know about setting up websites unless I had a good knowledge of Unix and directory structures and permissions and all that. It is indispensible to know it, for one has a better idea of how the internet works. I would expect web editors and topic editors to have a fair knowledge of Unix even if they do not use it. As much as I would expect them to know HTML even if they never use it and simply stick to WSIWYG page editors. Again, this is a minor quibble. Unix text editors like vi and pico are not rocket science. Sure, I have some learning to do myself, but it is no big deal. Once I figure it out, I don't have to figure it out again. And that goes for anyone else. Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > > ... What is a big deal is getting familiar with the vi editor > > or pico, neither of which I love with a passion. Neither of > > which require a large amount of training to learn. > > Patrick, > > Today fewer and fewer sites are rushing backwards to the Unix > of the 1980s (vi, etc.). Content editing tools are shifting more > and more to the Web as a platform, so that content editors never > have to see the arcana of the raw operating system command line. > > > I did run into a small problem with updating the page in > reference > > to rwrap. I emailed JJ on in just a moment ago and it should be > > fixed pretty quickly. > > I'm glad JJ was there to help you, and wasn't on vacation for > thre > weeks or something of the kind. For this and other reasons, JJ is > now > the absolutely indispensable person in the chain of events needed > to > edit your file successfully. I've seen the Unix programming code in > rwrap, and it might take a lot of time for anyone unfamiliar with > the > program to read and study it enough to fix other problems that > might > come up besides the one you just mentioned that turned out to be > preventing the file update. It seems that we have created a > dependence on exactly one single programmer on earth to fix these > kinds of problems. This is the opposite of the general trend today > toward widely adopted and widely supported open source tools based > on > the Web platform. > > > I hope that people don't feel I am taking sides and being > > opinionated on this topic. I am saying that there are, of course, > > only a couple of people, at the most, who will be updating the > > homepage. With that, rwrap should be of little concern to anyone > > else. > > Say hi to Kristen for me, or whoever the other person is. > When she learns rwrap and vi, you can send me a postcard at this > address: > > Rod Clark [clonereg-A237G-234] > 1233-B-44678-G Plaza of the Year 2317 > New New New Bothell, Mars 98109124-23764565 > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 16:49:03 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 16:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: A "thumbs-up" for SCN - update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010916234903.75293.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> The logos will be put up on SCN for everyone to comment on and a decision will be made by concensus. Within the next month. I don't see why the current logo can't be a contender. Patrick Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > Patrick, > > Thanks for the update. Here is a question. > > When we get to look at the new logos. Can we vote on them *AND* > can the current logo be one of the ones we could choose? Or > is that a board decision? I.e. is the current one specifically > not allowed to be a contender? > > -- Doug > > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY > * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change > * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 > * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure > * > * is being shaped today. > * > * But by whom and to what ends? > * > > ****************************************************************** > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > > > I wanted to provide an update on SCN. > > > > A great deal is going on with the site. Things do not happen > > overnight and such is the case with SCN. Volunteers are putting > in a > > great deal of time and work into getting SCN to it's next stage. > > > > Besides the wonderful job that was done with the move from the > old > > library to the new temporary library: > > > > SCN is getting a new look: The website is going to look very > nice. I > > am working with the board and the other volunteers and the > graphics > > guru, Hugh Miller" to create a site look that will make it quite > > appealing. > > > > SCN is getting an updated logo: This is an issue with everyone. A > big > > issue. We are working on getting a new logo based on designs > created > > by Hugh, by others outside of SCN and from input from anyone who > > wants to give input. (A side note: There will be a number of > logos > > put up on SCN for people to make comments on. One logo that is > yet to > > be done: One that is based on the elements of the current logo.) > > > > SCN is working on getting content: We have a number of ideas for > > people to provide content. I have some ideas that I have wanted > to > > implement. One of those is Seazine. Now with my scheduled freed > up > > quite a bit, I am going to give that a lot of attention. > > > > A great deal is going on. I hope that people can provide their > input, > > create content, and know that SCN is going to be a great place. A > > great destination. > > > > SCN is incredible. I love the local links. There is nothing like > it > > anywhere else in the Seattle area. Indespensible. People can be > > critical all they want of SCN, but it is a gem in the local > online > > world. > > > > We can make it a much better place. I hope we can all focus on > doing > > what we can do with the site. We have a lot of capable and > wonderful > > volunteers who have made SCN great. > > > > Patrick > > Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > > Donate cash, emergency relief information > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan at scn.org Sun Sep 16 18:48:30 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 18:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: A "thumbs-up" for SCN - update In-Reply-To: <20010916215840.98888.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: p> p> SCN is getting an updated logo: This is an issue with everyone. A big p> issue. We are working on getting a new logo based on designs created p> by Hugh, by others outside of SCN and from input from anyone who p> wants to give input. (A side note: There will be a number of logos p> put up on SCN for people to make comments on. One logo that is yet to p> be done: One that is based on the elements of the current logo.) Why are you not considering my design and logo at http://www.scn.org/~er-chan/scn.html scn.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 18:51:37 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 18:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: SCN homepage updated (featured sites) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010917015137.53302.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Joe and Lois, Your web sites are being featured on the SCN homepage, along with another. The site was updated moments ago. Patrick __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 18:55:08 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 18:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: A "thumbs-up" for SCN - update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010917015508.94426.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Eileen, Your site will be considered. I did not make special mention of it or any other work that is being considered, besides what Hugh has done. Hold tight for about a month or so. I believe we are on target to get everything together for review by the end of October. Patrick SCN Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator --- er-chan wrote: > p> > p> SCN is getting an updated logo: This is an issue with everyone. > A big > p> issue. We are working on getting a new logo based on designs > created > p> by Hugh, by others outside of SCN and from input from anyone who > p> wants to give input. (A side note: There will be a number of > logos > p> put up on SCN for people to make comments on. One logo that is > yet to > p> be done: One that is based on the elements of the current logo.) > > > Why are you not considering my design and logo at > http://www.scn.org/~er-chan/scn.html > scn.html > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan at scn.org Sun Sep 16 19:10:42 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: web pages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The requests had nothing to do with "religion". I think one was about Israeli dancing or some form of entertainment. It was awhile ago and instead of your usual eloquence your answer was so surprisingly brief. when you refused to consider listing them. @*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@**@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@*@@*@**@*@@**@* Hello Rod Clark (On 09/16/01,3:48am,you wrote Re: Re: SCN: WEB: National... RC> Elaine Chan wrote: RC> > Before there was a webeditors list the requests were made. ... RC> RC> Elaine, RC> RC> Well, I don't remember anything like that. But if they were RC> Israeli sites or other foreign sites about Middle east terrorism RC> threats or whatever they were, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have RC> added them to the menus. RC> RC> If they would have been Seattle area links about Jewish life RC> and religion or something of the kind, that would have been RC> different, and actually I have added a few of those to the menus RC> over the past few years. You can have a look at the menu at RC> RC> http://www.scn.org/spiritual/judaism RC> RC> The only two .il sites there are The World Jewish Congress RC> and The Online Jewish Library. Here are the comments at the RC> bottom of the page. The "-rsc" is my initials. These are all RC> Seattle area sites except for for Tikkun Magazine, which is RC> published in the U.S. RC> RC> Sep 27 00 added bikur cholim, eitz or -rsc RC> Aug 28 00 added hilleluw -rsc RC> Aug 12 00 added sjcc -rsc RC> Mar 8 00 added ajcseattle, jewish transcript -rsc RC> Feb 2 00 added WA state jewish hist soc -rsc RC> Oct 25 99 added Tikkun Magazine, temple de hirsch -rsc RC> Sep 13 99 added Seattle Kollel -rsc RC> RC> Rod Clark RC> RC> _,--------, .-. \ o / elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Sun Sep 16 19:24:48 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Important from NYC In-Reply-To: <00ac01c13f06$d57edfa0$25ca173f@dellxpsr350> Message-ID: Dear Everyone, I have just had a request from New York City -- Please DO NOT send newsletters around for a while especially to the East coast. The servers have been completely overloaded and it is making E-mail very slow and erratic. The people in NYC have to depend entirely on E-Mail for communications, the phone lines are still completly out in the downtown area, and all over the rest of the city are most erraatic. The whole east coast is having phone problems. So unless it is a very important message, please try to limit use. Please pass this information on. The situation is critical. Thank you, Irene Mogol * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From Piero.Bugoni at Bugoni.net Sun Sep 16 20:07:02 2001 From: Piero.Bugoni at Bugoni.net (Piero.Bugoni at Bugoni.net) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:07:02 -0700 (MST) Subject: SCN: Message from Mr. Piero Bugoni, Candidate for Mayor of Seattle. Message-ID: <200109170307.UAA24455@usr01.primenet.com> Fellow Citizen, My name is Mr. Piero Bugoni. I am a Candidate for Mayor of Seattle. I hope that I have not imposed upon you by sending you this note, but I do believe that matters of Law, our City Government and our general welfare for the next four years are important enough to contact as many Citizens as possible. I got your e-mail address from the SCN website. I was able to get close to 10,000 e-mail addresses in all, from a variety of commercial and public-domain websites. A brief writeup on how this was done will be posted on my website: http://Bugoni.net In the meantime, I have posted some informational summaries on matters of law, the budget, taxes and municipal statistics. I think it benefits every Citizen to know this sort of information, and I have summarized it in a manner that hopefully can be reviewed and understood in just a few minutes. In addition, I keep a Campaign Journal on my website so that you can see what I have been up to, and a link to my page from the Seattle Elections website, so that you can see my statements from the Voter's Pamphlet, and the Video Voters Guide. Before I go on to matters of policy, and my platform, I wish to say to any Citizens who may have lost family or people they know in the recent attack on America that I know nothing can heal that pain, or bring those people back. I know as well, however, that I personally would go into foreign lands to bring those who perpetrated those acts to proper justice. I would not lose a moment's sleep over it. America will stand, America will continue. While this nation is no longer the same as it was just a few days ago, matters of our local government must go on nonetheless. I have included some statements of policy below, that I would like you to consider. I am a working Citizen same as any other. I make no special claim to greatness. I simply have taken it upon myself to get involved. I have taken the time to review the City and County Budgets, State, Federal and Municipal Law, the City Charter, Court opinions on Constitutional Matters, and the City's labor contracts that expire this year. I am serious about the job of Mayor. I have approached it in as business-like a manner as I can, as opposed to one of politics, antics, derogation, blame, or pedantics. I hope that you can appreciate this, and give me your Vote on September 18th. It is important to remember that only the top two candidates from the Primary Election advance to the General Election. This means that between Mr. Nickels and myself, we can create a situation where Mr. Schell and Mr. Sidran do not even make it to The General election. Many Citizens have voiced their approval when I mention this, It is a public service I am happy to provide. Thank You. Mr. Piero Bugoni, Candidate for Mayor, Seattle. Matters of Policy, and my Executive Agenda: 1.) CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED: Our State Constitution Guarantees it, I will deliver it. Many Citizens have complained to me that governmental bodies in this State are indifferent to the desires of their Constituency and have nothing but an agenda to impose. This is unacceptable. Whether campaigning, or just living here as a Citizen, I constantly listen to what people have to say about their local existence. Citizens have plenty of good ideas as to how to better our community, our economy, and facilitate our existence. Frankly, it is the Citizens that are best suited to decide what the Citizens need. Facilitating Citizens' desires into workable policy is a prime obligation of any elected official. 2.) EDUCATION: I will personally grade homework sampled at random from City Schools, on a regular basis. I will occasionally assign homework. I will see to it that copies of State, Municipal and Federal laws are in every High School at least, and that those laws that are most often violated are part of regular curriculum. (The overwhelming majority of cases in Seattle Municipal court are vehicular infractions, jay-walking and other "civility" infractions, minor drug offenses, and driving while a license is under administrative suspension. (Not reckless driving, or DUI suspension.) These data can of course be viewed from my website.) The motor vehicle code and the criminal code are not excessively large bodies of law to read. High school students can manage it in their school time. 3.) TRANSPORTATION: Punishing people and stealing their property is not the solution to any problem. The city government as it stands seems to believe that depriving citizens of their very lives is the only way to make a municipality work. It is not so. Facilitating Citizens' existence is their obligation. I have already spoken to numerous people involved in our city transportation scheme, from Metro officials to taxi drivers. There is a consensus that even includes some of the other candidates. The regional transportation problems are going to take more than four years to solve. Interim solutions that involve more available parking outside congested areas, shuttles, better routing and signage, need to be implemented today. More use of our waterways needs to be looked at, since a circle of 30 miles radius around Seattle is mostly water. Building roadways across them is not realistic, and many office buildings, and other work locations are within walking distance of a local body of water. Accountability on Sound Transit is important for their stunningly gross mismanagement, but what's more important is getting people from place to place today. Accountability will come after our local transport issues are solved with cooperative, and private-commercial efforts. The best reason for this is that it will make an even stronger case as to just how bad a job that Sound Transit has done. If you vote for Mark Sidran, he'll waste even more of your time going after them while you sit in traffic and wait. There is no need to wait for government to get you to work everyday. If you work in a large office building, or for a large employer, please call your local taxi or shuttle company, and see if you can arrange a route. I am sure that the private livery companies would be eager for the work. 4.) WORK TODAY, CASH TODAY. Any Citizen willing to show up clean and sober is entitled to city funds to clean, repair, and maintain civic facilities. This is an excellent way to provide work and ready funds to those who do not have a stable residence, or are having trouble making it in this city. There will be no bureaucratic overhead involved, and work will proceed 3 shifts per day. Funds will be paid in cash, daily. Wages will be $6.00 to $10.00 per hour. I will deal with any Federal or State tax issues. There are funds in the City Budget for such a program. Just for the sake of the math, I'll mention that the State Auditor's office notified the City of Seattle that $12 million Dollars was unaccounted for in the Seattle City Employees Retirement Service, two years in a row. Twelve million Dollars will pay a crew of 1,000 people six Dollars an hour for a year. The Seattle Police Department spends that much in about one month. 5.) DRIVING, RIGHT VS. PRIVILEGE: Anyone who tells you that driving is not a Right, because it is a privilege, is either misinformed or lying. A privilege is a special type of Right granted to a particular class of people. In this case the class is those who prove to the rest of us that they can operate a vehicle competently by taking a test. By Constitutional Law, once obtained, the only interference to that Right can come from a person causing a clear and present danger. Reckless driving, and DUI are not competent operation of a vehicle. Minor mistakes, matters not related to safety, or a person not paying a ticket in time that was wrong or excessive to begin with, are not cause to destroy a Citizen's life, interfere with their Right to engage in commerce, and travel, and waste their time with court or other obligations. In this State, many Citizens have their licenses suspended for matters not related to driving hazardously. People go to jail every day in this State, for up to 90 days for continuing to drive when their license was suspended for not paying a fine in time, or some other obligation. Last year, the municipal and district courts in this state processed 2,070,660 case filings. Of these, 720,046 were parking infractions, 846,835 were traffic infractions, and 124,256 were non DUI traffic misdemeanors, of which the majority were driving while license under administrative suspension. (Lowest degree.) The vehicle legislation and enforcement system is supposed to be for safety. As it is being carried out however, it amounts to no more than a gigantic waste of Citizens' lives. It is a ripoff of epic grandeur. 6.) TAXES AND THE BUDGET: The total resources in the Seattle Budget are: $2,415,275,000. Taxes contribute $637,937,000. A breakdown of these numbers is on my website. Please have a look. The bottom line is that both Citizens and Businesses are taxed too heavily. Having looked at the budget, I cannot promise a reduction at this time. I DO HOWEVER PROMISE A FREEZE! Our budget is large enough, and I firmly believe that Citizens have no more money to give up, nor should they have to. I think that Seattle Citizens' and Businesses' tax burdens are currently as large as they ever should be. Re-arranging the budget to give us more value for that Money is mandatory. 7.) THE CIVIL SERVICE: Our Civil Service is just over 10,000 employees. The population of Seattle is around 560,000. I do not think this is necessarily disproportionate. I shall however impose a private-sector work ethic on the Civil Service. I have heard too many complaints about poor performance, not to mention what can only be called a "municipal-troll screw you attitude." I have experienced my share of these as well. I will make sure that Civil Servants provide the Clients and Shareholders of The Municipal Corporation of Seattle with the same type of customer service as any other well-run business. I am in favor of term limits on Civil Service positions. I propose 13 years. A municipal post can be an opportunity to get an education, learn a trade, or put some money away, but not a lifelong meal ticket. Those jobs can be well paying, and good opportunities, but those benefits belong to everyone. All 51 civil service contracts expire this year. The City Council negotiates these contracts, but the Mayor can contribute to this process. Please do not leave this critical matter to career-politicians. Thank You. Mr. Bugoni. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 20:24:35 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Important from NYC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010917032435.61253.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Irene, Thank you very much for the updates on what is going on. Happy to hear that your family members are doing fine. There is just so much craziness going on in the news that hardly any news gets out. I made sure to be the first person in Borders Books at Westlake Center to make sure that I got the New York Times each morning. If anyone has the news, it is the NY Times. Patrick --- Irene Mogol wrote: > Dear Everyone, > > I have just had a request from New York City -- > > Please DO NOT send newsletters around for a while especially to the > East > coast. The servers have been completely overloaded and it is making > E-mail > very slow and erratic. > > The people in NYC have to depend entirely on E-Mail for > communications, > the phone lines are still completly out in the downtown area, and > all over > the rest of the city are most erraatic. The whole east coast is > having > phone problems. So unless it is a very important message, please > try to > limit use. > > Please pass this information on. The situation is critical. > > Thank you, > Irene Mogol > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Sun Sep 16 21:50:40 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Important from NYC In-Reply-To: <20010917032435.61253.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you Patrick, I get the NY TIMES on my Hotmail Account, which I can not access from home because my ISP went nuts. Need to get something else. However, the library has public access. But, I have to say, I haven't read a thing all week, between what I see on the news and many calls from my daughter, especially her news, I am probably more up to date than most. And the latest news as of an hour ago, the situation downtown is just worsening. This is a very residential neighborhood in addition to business. Battery Park City is just south of World Trade Center, like across the street and runs down to the tip of manhattan Island. My daughter's apartment complex is just 3 blocks north of WTC. There are thousands of residents just in that area. My daughters building is the only one in that complex - Independence Plaza, is so far, the only one that was evacuated although the small town houses may also have been evac'd. For the people still able to live in Independence Plaza, and all the condiminium lofts, there are absolutely no services at all. There is no food in the area, no transportation, no phone service and cell phones for the most part do not work. People come down just wandering around looking for each other - she said they recognize familiar faces even they dont know each other and just hug and say 'you're alive'. 'Have you seen ____' 'Where are you staying___' The Red Cross and Salvation Army have been absolutely wonderful. There are many senior citizens there who need doctors and medicines. They were able to convince a pharmacist several blocks away to open up, they got a doctor to come around to help. At least 9 shelters that I know of, have been set up cross town on the east side and further north. Stuyvesant High School, is also right across Chamber St - you may have seen the arched bridge. Many of the TV pix are from Lori's building, and the one behind is Borough of Manhattan Community College. There was a Community Council meeting this afternoon and no one can even project when they might, if ever, return to their homes. They have been allowed to return to their apartments only long enough to gather possessions, 1 hour time limit, and only if they have sturdy flashlights to walk up and down stairs and are physically fit. She is on the 35th floor of 39 story building - you have also seen it on TV quite a bit. A reddish brick building with what looks like shelves - terraces. The people who live in Battery Park City are not allowed in their buildings unless accompanied by a police escort. The situation is very grim. Aerial pictures wre shown on TV today, it looked horrible but last nite Lori described what she saw when they went out on the terrace, she said the pile of red rubble was #7 WTC, the gray mass were the twin towers, the whitish was #5, and on and on. The rubble was 12 stories high, I think TV said it maybe was down to 7 stories high the last I heard. So many people are still missing. Those who survived cannot even try to lead a normal life - in addition to many being displaced-homeless, they can't even go back to work because work is no longer there. Companies are gone, who knows if they will ever be restored, maybe some will be able to relocate some people might be able to get back to work. My daughter is a free-lancer often working from home but for the past several months she has been contracting and working on site at #4 (or 5) WTC. The other nite in a somewhat surrealistic moment she said she was trying to remember if she had left anything important in her desk and realized her last 3 weeks of time sheets were there, and after saying "How am I going to get paid?", all she could do was laugh hysterically. Many of her colleagues are still unaccounted for. Fortunately she was home sick Tuesday morning so she just witnessed the entire catastrophic event from her window. Her husband was in class right across the street and when the first explosion occurred they all got out just in time for the 2nd crash, called her and just ran with thousands of others the few long blocks home. They watched the collapses together but couldnt see a thing for all the black smoke. There is still tremendous amounts of smoke. She had called me when the first explosion occurred but I didnt hear the phone for being in the shower - east coast west coast time difference. She left me a message saying 'dont worry, I'm all right'. As we often have said in our family, OY! So there you have a sunny day in NYC. Irene, Not quite the same Wicked Witch of the East/West/Somewhere in Between as I was a week ago. On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > Irene, > > Thank you very much for the updates on what is going on. > > Happy to hear that your family members are doing fine. > > There is just so much craziness going on in the news that hardly any > news gets out. > > I made sure to be the first person in Borders Books at Westlake > Center to make sure that I got the New York Times each morning. If > anyone has the news, it is the NY Times. > > Patrick > > --- Irene Mogol wrote: > > Dear Everyone, > > > > I have just had a request from New York City -- > > > > Please DO NOT send newsletters around for a while especially to the > > East > > coast. The servers have been completely overloaded and it is making > > E-mail > > very slow and erratic. > > > > The people in NYC have to depend entirely on E-Mail for > > communications, > > the phone lines are still completly out in the downtown area, and > > all over > > the rest of the city are most erraatic. The whole east coast is > > having > > phone problems. So unless it is a very important message, please > > try to > > limit use. > > > > Please pass this information on. The situation is critical. > > > > Thank you, > > Irene Mogol > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Mon Sep 17 01:36:51 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 01:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: response to er-chan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am going to reply to er-chan one last time and then I am going to stop, because there is no point to arguing at length with someone who is talking like a fool. Rod Clark does not edit the home page, and hasn't for a year. All I can say is, I'm sure glad you don't edit it. Are you familiar with the term McCarthyism? Senator Joe McCarthy (R-Wisconsin circa 1950) attacked first the State Department, and later the military with (largely baseless) charges of Communist infiltration. His chief tactic was to claim to have the names of dozens of known Communists who had infiltrated the State Department, although of course he never shared these lists. He successfully built a major climate of fear in the country. He successfully hounded many innocent people out of theri jobs, some of them to their deaths. Oh, and I must admit, he probably did manage to get a few guilty ones while he was at it, but so few it can almost be written off to coincidence. er-chan writes: > So you AMericans feel freedom of speech > means leaving up links to suicide bomber recruitment > or terrorist web-sites? I will ask one last time: can you point at any such actual site? As far as Ican tell, it would qualify as incitement to criminal activity, and would merit not merely de-linking, but criminal investigation and prosecution. If it exists, point it out. If not, stop waving the bloody flag. Put up or shut up. er-chan writes: > The sites that were refused links(there were some) I don't > have access to the archiuves(the webmaster probably does). > You know that don't you? Frankly, given what else you've been saying, I see no reason to believe an asertion from you with no concrete content to back it up. A far as I know, anyone ca pass a site on to an SCN topic editor, and a link will be made. If you have content, pass it on. To my knowledge, the only reason SCN turns down links is irrelevance to the Seattle area or blatant commercialism (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). If you have a collection of links you want to add, and they are not obviously relevant to Seattle, I suggest that you make a page of your own and get SCN to link to it. If someone is misguided enough to turn you down, I'll be on your side in tht fight, even if it leaves me feeling like the ACLU defending the KKK's right to free speech. Which, by the way, I believe in. Those who know me will know that it is not typical of me to call a fellow SCN-er a fool. If anyone feels I'm out of line here, I will gladly discuss, but not on the main public e-mail list. And unlike er-chan, I will sign my actual name to my email, and even a link to my web site, in case anyone is unlear exactly who I am. Joe Mabel http://www.speakeasy.org/~jmabel * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Mon Sep 17 08:16:41 2001 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN's web front page In-Reply-To: <20010916214816.55930.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you Patrick, for being able to see the path ahead through the thorns that we and situations seem to be throwing in your way. I appreciate your efforts and your willingness to persevere. If there is anything that we in Operations can do to assist or make the situation less onerous, please let us and/or me know, and we'll see what we can do. -randy On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > I think we should not make a mountain out of a molehill. > > rwrap is intended to archive page changes and to track who changed > what on this multi-person system. > > It is not a big deal and it is a minor quibble. Sure, I would love to > just ftp a file up, but rwrap is not an issue. What is a big deal is > getting familiar with the vi editor or pico, neither of which I love > with a passion. Neither of which require a large amount of training > to learn. > > I did run into a small problem with updating the page in reference to > rwrap. I emailed JJ on in just a moment ago and it should be fixed > pretty quickly. > > I hope that people don't feel I am taking sides and being opinionated > on this topic. I am saying that there are, of course, only a couple > of people, at the most, who will be updating the homepage. With that, > rwrap should be of little concern to anyone else. > > The homepage will be updated as quickly as possible. > > Patrick > Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator > > > --- Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > > > > I don't know what's going on lately. I do know that I offered > > to take over some of the tasks that NancyK had been doing > > before she died and was given such an absurd runaround that > > I finally decided it was pointless to volunteer. Among other > > requirements - I had to speak directly with Nancy! > > > > I am not surprised that SCN is hurting for cash. In fact, > > when I saw the money plea, I thought I knew just how > > Dr. Lewinski felt when the Democratic Party asked for his > > check. > > > > Lorraine > > ------------------- > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > > > > Randy Groves wrote: > > > > 'rwrap' is NOT required. It was suggested as a tool, to > > provide backup in > > > > case of errors - NOT required. > > > > > > > > There have been NO restrictions imposed, either > > programmatically nor by > > > > policy that removes the ability to edit files with vi, pico, > > etc. > > > > > > Randy, > > > > > > That is not true, on both counts. The home page has total > > > no-write permissions for the members of the topics group, who if > > > your ststement were true would have write access to edit it with > > > pico or other text editors. But they do NOT have that access. > > > See for yourself: > > > > > > 4 -r-xr-xr-x 1 guests topics 3728 Aug 21 13:12 > > index.html* > > > > > > The ONLY way that the home page can be updated is by using > > > rwrap. You are misleading everyone when you say this is > > > optional. > > > > > > It is also now required by policy to use rwrap. I asked the > > > acting Executive Director on Thursday, "Will you remove rwrap so > > > that Patrick can update the home page?" The answer was "no." > > > > > > Because Patrick couldn't FTP the home page file last week > > > (because of the no-write permissions that block FTP), he asked > > > me for help with rwrap, which I tried to give him based on my > > > recollection of an earlier version of rwrap, but it wasn't > > > enough to get the page up. The page still isn't up. And this is > > > the actual, truthful reason. That is the answer to the question > > > that the three volunteers - Irene, Lee and Elaine - asked on > > > this list. > > > > > > Communicating with ourselves, and with all the volunteers, is > > > vitally important, and it can't be left to the PR efforts of > > > only a few people in top positions. You and I both were confused > > > about this, because of the lack of forthright communications > > > with volunteers about the situation. Content is being sacrificed > > > because technical considerations like this are being placed > > > first by a leadership with a too-stubborn technical focus. And > > > this is the future of SCN's site, and of SCN itself, before our > > > eyes. > > > > > > Rod Clark > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > > * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > > at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > > * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 08:36:01 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN's web front page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010917153601.13894.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Randy, Thank you for the feedback. I greatly appreciate it. I was wondering if we could look into implementing, or at least investigating, a community bulletin board for the site. This in line with providing more content for the site and making SCN more of a destination. It was mentioned that SCN has three CGIs available on it's system to provide this feature. An example of a community bulletin board provided to me: http://faculty.washington.edu/jimward/ Thanks much, Patrick Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator --- Randy Groves wrote: > > Thank you Patrick, for being able to see the path ahead through the > thorns > that we and situations seem to be throwing in your way. > > I appreciate your efforts and your willingness to persevere. > > If there is anything that we in Operations can do to assist or make > the > situation less onerous, please let us and/or me know, and we'll see > what > we can do. > > -randy > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > > > I think we should not make a mountain out of a molehill. > > > > rwrap is intended to archive page changes and to track who > changed > > what on this multi-person system. > > > > It is not a big deal and it is a minor quibble. Sure, I would > love to > > just ftp a file up, but rwrap is not an issue. What is a big deal > is > > getting familiar with the vi editor or pico, neither of which I > love > > with a passion. Neither of which require a large amount of > training > > to learn. > > > > I did run into a small problem with updating the page in > reference to > > rwrap. I emailed JJ on in just a moment ago and it should be > fixed > > pretty quickly. > > > > I hope that people don't feel I am taking sides and being > opinionated > > on this topic. I am saying that there are, of course, only a > couple > > of people, at the most, who will be updating the homepage. With > that, > > rwrap should be of little concern to anyone else. > > > > The homepage will be updated as quickly as possible. > > > > Patrick > > Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator > > > > > > --- Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > > > > > > I don't know what's going on lately. I do know that I offered > > > to take over some of the tasks that NancyK had been doing > > > before she died and was given such an absurd runaround that > > > I finally decided it was pointless to volunteer. Among other > > > requirements - I had to speak directly with Nancy! > > > > > > I am not surprised that SCN is hurting for cash. In fact, > > > when I saw the money plea, I thought I knew just how > > > Dr. Lewinski felt when the Democratic Party asked for his > > > check. > > > > > > Lorraine > > > ------------------- > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > > > > > > Randy Groves wrote: > > > > > 'rwrap' is NOT required. It was suggested as a tool, to > > > provide backup in > > > > > case of errors - NOT required. > > > > > > > > > > There have been NO restrictions imposed, either > > > programmatically nor by > > > > > policy that removes the ability to edit files with vi, > pico, > > > etc. > > > > > > > > Randy, > > > > > > > > That is not true, on both counts. The home page has total > > > > no-write permissions for the members of the topics group, who > if > > > > your ststement were true would have write access to edit it > with > > > > pico or other text editors. But they do NOT have that access. > > > > See for yourself: > > > > > > > > 4 -r-xr-xr-x 1 guests topics 3728 Aug 21 13:12 > > > index.html* > > > > > > > > The ONLY way that the home page can be updated is by using > > > > rwrap. You are misleading everyone when you say this is > > > > optional. > > > > > > > > It is also now required by policy to use rwrap. I asked > the > > > > acting Executive Director on Thursday, "Will you remove rwrap > so > > > > that Patrick can update the home page?" The answer was "no." > > > > > > > > Because Patrick couldn't FTP the home page file last week > > > > (because of the no-write permissions that block FTP), he > asked > > > > me for help with rwrap, which I tried to give him based on my > > > > recollection of an earlier version of rwrap, but it wasn't > > > > enough to get the page up. The page still isn't up. And this > is > > > > the actual, truthful reason. That is the answer to the > question > > > > that the three volunteers - Irene, Lee and Elaine - asked on > > > > this list. > > > > > > > > Communicating with ourselves, and with all the volunteers, > is > > > > vitally important, and it can't be left to the PR efforts of > > > > only a few people in top positions. You and I both were > confused > > > > about this, because of the lack of forthright communications > > > > with volunteers about the situation. Content is being > sacrificed > > > > because technical considerations like this are being placed > > > > first by a leadership with a too-stubborn technical focus. > And > > > > this is the future of SCN's site, and of SCN itself, before > our > > > > eyes. > > > > > > > > Rod Clark > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > web > > > at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * > * * > > > * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: > > > ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > * * > > > * * * > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > > Donate cash, emergency relief information > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Mon Sep 17 08:37:41 2001 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WEB: Re: SCN: A "thumbs-up" for SCN - update In-Reply-To: <20010916234903.75293.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm willing to wait and see what the list is, but another suggestion for a contender - the pictorial aspects of the present logo, as they are, but touched up by a graphics guru. I like the confluence of Hermes, the mountain, and the Space Needle - all elements that immediately identify our locality and local character. I would much prefer that we stay connected to those elements than craft an 'Exxon'-type logo - one that is more generic advertising (even though it may look really cool). I don't mean to offend anyone that may have done a lot of work in crafting new ideas. -randy On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > The logos will be put up on SCN for everyone to comment on and a > decision will be made by concensus. Within the next month. > > I don't see why the current logo can't be a contender. > > Patrick > Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > Patrick, > > > > Thanks for the update. Here is a question. > > > > When we get to look at the new logos. Can we vote on them *AND* > > can the current logo be one of the ones we could choose? Or > > is that a board decision? I.e. is the current one specifically > > not allowed to be a contender? > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY > > * > > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change > > * > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 > > * > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure > > * > > * is being shaped today. > > * > > * But by whom and to what ends? > > * > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > I wanted to provide an update on SCN. > > > > > > A great deal is going on with the site. Things do not happen > > > overnight and such is the case with SCN. Volunteers are putting > > in a > > > great deal of time and work into getting SCN to it's next stage. > > > > > > Besides the wonderful job that was done with the move from the > > old > > > library to the new temporary library: > > > > > > SCN is getting a new look: The website is going to look very > > nice. I > > > am working with the board and the other volunteers and the > > graphics > > > guru, Hugh Miller" to create a site look that will make it quite > > > appealing. > > > > > > SCN is getting an updated logo: This is an issue with everyone. A > > big > > > issue. We are working on getting a new logo based on designs > > created > > > by Hugh, by others outside of SCN and from input from anyone who > > > wants to give input. (A side note: There will be a number of > > logos > > > put up on SCN for people to make comments on. One logo that is > > yet to > > > be done: One that is based on the elements of the current logo.) > > > > > > SCN is working on getting content: We have a number of ideas for > > > people to provide content. I have some ideas that I have wanted > > to > > > implement. One of those is Seazine. Now with my scheduled freed > > up > > > quite a bit, I am going to give that a lot of attention. > > > > > > A great deal is going on. I hope that people can provide their > > input, > > > create content, and know that SCN is going to be a great place. A > > > great destination. > > > > > > SCN is incredible. I love the local links. There is nothing like > > it > > > anywhere else in the Seattle area. Indespensible. People can be > > > critical all they want of SCN, but it is a gem in the local > > online > > > world. > > > > > > We can make it a much better place. I hope we can all focus on > > doing > > > what we can do with the site. We have a lot of capable and > > wonderful > > > volunteers who have made SCN great. > > > > > > Patrick > > > Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > > > Donate cash, emergency relief information > > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > > * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > > at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > > * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe webmasters > Messages posted on this list are available on the Web at: > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/webmasters-l/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 08:46:19 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WEB: Re: SCN: A "thumbs-up" for SCN - update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010917154619.28317.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Randy, I think that that is the general feeling at this moment. I plan to meet with Hugh and work on getting a logo produced that retains the elements of the current logo. Thanks for your input. Patrick --- Randy Groves wrote: > > I'm willing to wait and see what the list is, but another > suggestion for a > contender - the pictorial aspects of the present logo, as they are, > but > touched up by a graphics guru. I like the confluence of Hermes, > the > mountain, and the Space Needle - all elements that immediately > identify > our locality and local character. I would much prefer that we stay > connected to those elements than craft an 'Exxon'-type logo - one > that is > more generic advertising (even though it may look really cool). > > I don't mean to offend anyone that may have done a lot of work in > crafting > new ideas. > > -randy > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > > > The logos will be put up on SCN for everyone to comment on and a > > decision will be made by concensus. Within the next month. > > > > I don't see why the current logo can't be a contender. > > > > Patrick > > Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator > > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > Patrick, > > > > > > Thanks for the update. Here is a question. > > > > > > When we get to look at the new logos. Can we vote on them *AND* > > > can the current logo be one of the ones we could choose? Or > > > is that a board decision? I.e. is the current one > specifically > > > not allowed to be a contender? > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY > > > * > > > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change > > > * > > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 > > > * > > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure > > > * > > > * is being shaped today. > > > * > > > * But by whom and to what ends? > > > * > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > I wanted to provide an update on SCN. > > > > > > > > A great deal is going on with the site. Things do not happen > > > > overnight and such is the case with SCN. Volunteers are > putting > > > in a > > > > great deal of time and work into getting SCN to it's next > stage. > > > > > > > > Besides the wonderful job that was done with the move from > the > > > old > > > > library to the new temporary library: > > > > > > > > SCN is getting a new look: The website is going to look very > > > nice. I > > > > am working with the board and the other volunteers and the > > > graphics > > > > guru, Hugh Miller" to create a site look that will make it > quite > > > > appealing. > > > > > > > > SCN is getting an updated logo: This is an issue with > everyone. A > > > big > > > > issue. We are working on getting a new logo based on designs > > > created > > > > by Hugh, by others outside of SCN and from input from anyone > who > > > > wants to give input. (A side note: There will be a number of > > > logos > > > > put up on SCN for people to make comments on. One logo that > is > > > yet to > > > > be done: One that is based on the elements of the current > logo.) > > > > > > > > SCN is working on getting content: We have a number of ideas > for > > > > people to provide content. I have some ideas that I have > wanted > > > to > > > > implement. One of those is Seazine. Now with my scheduled > freed > > > up > > > > quite a bit, I am going to give that a lot of attention. > > > > > > > > A great deal is going on. I hope that people can provide > their > > > input, > > > > create content, and know that SCN is going to be a great > place. A > > > > great destination. > > > > > > > > SCN is incredible. I love the local links. There is nothing > like > > > it > > > > anywhere else in the Seattle area. Indespensible. People can > be > > > > critical all they want of SCN, but it is a gem in the local > > > online > > > > world. > > > > > > > > We can make it a much better place. I hope we can all focus > on > > > doing > > > > what we can do with the site. We have a lot of capable and > > > wonderful > > > > volunteers who have made SCN great. > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > > > > Donate cash, emergency relief information > > > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > web > > > at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * > * * > > > * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: > > > ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > * * > > > * * * > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > > Donate cash, emergency relief information > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe webmasters > > Messages posted on this list are available on the Web at: > > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/webmasters-l/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Mon Sep 17 08:48:45 2001 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN's web front page In-Reply-To: <20010917153601.13894.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I definitely like the idea! That site looks very interesting. Any idea what is used on that site? I'be been out of circulation SCN-wise for a while, so I don't know what CGI's might be available. -randy On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > Hi Randy, > > Thank you for the feedback. I greatly appreciate it. > > I was wondering if we could look into implementing, or at least > investigating, a community bulletin board for the site. This in line > with providing more content for the site and making SCN more of a > destination. It was mentioned that SCN has three CGIs available on > it's system to provide this feature. > > An example of a community bulletin board provided to me: > > http://faculty.washington.edu/jimward/ > > Thanks much, > Patrick > Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator > > > --- Randy Groves wrote: > > > > Thank you Patrick, for being able to see the path ahead through the > > thorns > > that we and situations seem to be throwing in your way. > > > > I appreciate your efforts and your willingness to persevere. > > > > If there is anything that we in Operations can do to assist or make > > the > > situation less onerous, please let us and/or me know, and we'll see > > what > > we can do. > > > > -randy > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > I think we should not make a mountain out of a molehill. > > > > > > rwrap is intended to archive page changes and to track who > > changed > > > what on this multi-person system. > > > > > > It is not a big deal and it is a minor quibble. Sure, I would > > love to > > > just ftp a file up, but rwrap is not an issue. What is a big deal > > is > > > getting familiar with the vi editor or pico, neither of which I > > love > > > with a passion. Neither of which require a large amount of > > training > > > to learn. > > > > > > I did run into a small problem with updating the page in > > reference to > > > rwrap. I emailed JJ on in just a moment ago and it should be > > fixed > > > pretty quickly. > > > > > > I hope that people don't feel I am taking sides and being > > opinionated > > > on this topic. I am saying that there are, of course, only a > > couple > > > of people, at the most, who will be updating the homepage. With > > that, > > > rwrap should be of little concern to anyone else. > > > > > > The homepage will be updated as quickly as possible. > > > > > > Patrick > > > Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator > > > > > > > > > --- Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't know what's going on lately. I do know that I offered > > > > to take over some of the tasks that NancyK had been doing > > > > before she died and was given such an absurd runaround that > > > > I finally decided it was pointless to volunteer. Among other > > > > requirements - I had to speak directly with Nancy! > > > > > > > > I am not surprised that SCN is hurting for cash. In fact, > > > > when I saw the money plea, I thought I knew just how > > > > Dr. Lewinski felt when the Democratic Party asked for his > > > > check. > > > > > > > > Lorraine > > > > ------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > > > > > > > > Randy Groves wrote: > > > > > > 'rwrap' is NOT required. It was suggested as a tool, to > > > > provide backup in > > > > > > case of errors - NOT required. > > > > > > > > > > > > There have been NO restrictions imposed, either > > > > programmatically nor by > > > > > > policy that removes the ability to edit files with vi, > > pico, > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > Randy, > > > > > > > > > > That is not true, on both counts. The home page has total > > > > > no-write permissions for the members of the topics group, who > > if > > > > > your ststement were true would have write access to edit it > > with > > > > > pico or other text editors. But they do NOT have that access. > > > > > See for yourself: > > > > > > > > > > 4 -r-xr-xr-x 1 guests topics 3728 Aug 21 13:12 > > > > index.html* > > > > > > > > > > The ONLY way that the home page can be updated is by using > > > > > rwrap. You are misleading everyone when you say this is > > > > > optional. > > > > > > > > > > It is also now required by policy to use rwrap. I asked > > the > > > > > acting Executive Director on Thursday, "Will you remove rwrap > > so > > > > > that Patrick can update the home page?" The answer was "no." > > > > > > > > > > Because Patrick couldn't FTP the home page file last week > > > > > (because of the no-write permissions that block FTP), he > > asked > > > > > me for help with rwrap, which I tried to give him based on my > > > > > recollection of an earlier version of rwrap, but it wasn't > > > > > enough to get the page up. The page still isn't up. And this > > is > > > > > the actual, truthful reason. That is the answer to the > > question > > > > > that the three volunteers - Irene, Lee and Elaine - asked on > > > > > this list. > > > > > > > > > > Communicating with ourselves, and with all the volunteers, > > is > > > > > vitally important, and it can't be left to the PR efforts of > > > > > only a few people in top positions. You and I both were > > confused > > > > > about this, because of the lack of forthright communications > > > > > with volunteers about the situation. Content is being > > sacrificed > > > > > because technical considerations like this are being placed > > > > > first by a leadership with a too-stubborn technical focus. > > And > > > > > this is the future of SCN's site, and of SCN itself, before > > our > > > > > eyes. > > > > > > > > > > Rod Clark > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * > > * * > > > > * * * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > > web > > > > at: ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * > > * * > > > > * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > > * * > > > > * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > > at: > > > > ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > > * * > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > > > Donate cash, emergency relief information > > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 08:54:15 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN's web front page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010917155415.39941.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> I'm not certain what is used, but I will investigate today. Patrick --- Randy Groves wrote: > > I definitely like the idea! > > That site looks very interesting. Any idea what is used on that > site? > I'be been out of circulation SCN-wise for a while, so I don't know > what > CGI's might be available. > > -randy > > > On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > > > Hi Randy, > > > > Thank you for the feedback. I greatly appreciate it. > > > > I was wondering if we could look into implementing, or at least > > investigating, a community bulletin board for the site. This in > line > > with providing more content for the site and making SCN more of a > > destination. It was mentioned that SCN has three CGIs available > on > > it's system to provide this feature. > > > > An example of a community bulletin board provided to me: > > > > http://faculty.washington.edu/jimward/ > > > > Thanks much, > > Patrick > > Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator > > > > > > --- Randy Groves wrote: > > > > > > Thank you Patrick, for being able to see the path ahead through > the > > > thorns > > > that we and situations seem to be throwing in your way. > > > > > > I appreciate your efforts and your willingness to persevere. > > > > > > If there is anything that we in Operations can do to assist or > make > > > the > > > situation less onerous, please let us and/or me know, and we'll > see > > > what > > > we can do. > > > > > > -randy > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > I think we should not make a mountain out of a molehill. > > > > > > > > rwrap is intended to archive page changes and to track who > > > changed > > > > what on this multi-person system. > > > > > > > > It is not a big deal and it is a minor quibble. Sure, I would > > > love to > > > > just ftp a file up, but rwrap is not an issue. What is a big > deal > > > is > > > > getting familiar with the vi editor or pico, neither of which > I > > > love > > > > with a passion. Neither of which require a large amount of > > > training > > > > to learn. > > > > > > > > I did run into a small problem with updating the page in > > > reference to > > > > rwrap. I emailed JJ on in just a moment ago and it should be > > > fixed > > > > pretty quickly. > > > > > > > > I hope that people don't feel I am taking sides and being > > > opinionated > > > > on this topic. I am saying that there are, of course, only a > > > couple > > > > of people, at the most, who will be updating the homepage. > With > > > that, > > > > rwrap should be of little concern to anyone else. > > > > > > > > The homepage will be updated as quickly as possible. > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what's going on lately. I do know that I > offered > > > > > to take over some of the tasks that NancyK had been doing > > > > > before she died and was given such an absurd runaround that > > > > > I finally decided it was pointless to volunteer. Among > other > > > > > requirements - I had to speak directly with Nancy! > > > > > > > > > > I am not surprised that SCN is hurting for cash. In fact, > > > > > when I saw the money plea, I thought I knew just how > > > > > Dr. Lewinski felt when the Democratic Party asked for his > > > > > check. > > > > > > > > > > Lorraine > > > > > ------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Randy Groves wrote: > > > > > > > 'rwrap' is NOT required. It was suggested as a tool, > to > > > > > provide backup in > > > > > > > case of errors - NOT required. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There have been NO restrictions imposed, either > > > > > programmatically nor by > > > > > > > policy that removes the ability to edit files with vi, > > > pico, > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Randy, > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not true, on both counts. The home page has > total > > > > > > no-write permissions for the members of the topics group, > who > > > if > > > > > > your ststement were true would have write access to edit > it > > > with > > > > > > pico or other text editors. But they do NOT have that > access. > > > > > > See for yourself: > > > > > > > > > > > > 4 -r-xr-xr-x 1 guests topics 3728 Aug 21 13:12 > > > > > index.html* > > > > > > > > > > > > The ONLY way that the home page can be updated is by > using > > > > > > rwrap. You are misleading everyone when you say this is > > > > > > optional. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is also now required by policy to use rwrap. I > asked > > > the > > > > > > acting Executive Director on Thursday, "Will you remove > rwrap > > > so > > > > > > that Patrick can update the home page?" The answer was > "no." > > > > > > > > > > > > Because Patrick couldn't FTP the home page file last > week > > > > > > (because of the no-write permissions that block FTP), he > > > asked > > > > > > me for help with rwrap, which I tried to give him based > on my > > > > > > recollection of an earlier version of rwrap, but it > wasn't > > > > > > enough to get the page up. The page still isn't up. And > this > > > is > > > > > > the actual, truthful reason. That is the answer to the > > > question > > > > > > that the three volunteers - Irene, Lee and Elaine - asked > on > > > > > > this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > Communicating with ourselves, and with all the > volunteers, > > > is > > > > > > vitally important, and it can't be left to the PR efforts > of > > > > > > only a few people in top positions. You and I both were > > > confused > > > > > > about this, because of the lack of forthright > communications > > > > > > with volunteers about the situation. Content is being > > > sacrificed > > > > > > because technical considerations like this are being > placed > > > > > > first by a leadership with a too-stubborn technical > focus. > > > And > > > > > > this is the future of SCN's site, and of SCN itself, > before > > > our > > > > > > eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rod Clark > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * > * * > > > * * > > > > > * * * * > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on > the > > > web > > > > > at: ==== > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ > * > > > * * > > > > > * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * > * * > > > * * > > > > > * * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > web > > > at: > > > > > ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ > * * > > > * * > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > > > > Donate cash, emergency relief information > > > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: > > > ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > * * > > > * * * > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > > Donate cash, emergency relief information > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From davidb at scn.org Mon Sep 17 11:43:05 2001 From: davidb at scn.org (David Barts) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:43:05 -0700 Subject: SCN: What an asshole! Message-ID: <20010917114305.A28480@scn.scn.org> Did anyone else catch Ari Fleischer's (sp?) press conference this morning, when he admitted that the Bush administration is going to also press ahead with its original partisan domestic policy agenda despite all the blather they've been spouting about "uniting Americans"? They have apparently just tipped their hand. They care very little about national security and a great deal about amassing power at any and all costs. I now fear my government as much as those who recently destroyed the WTC. Congratulations, Jerkwad. Up until now I was ready to give you my conditional support in this crisis. -- David W. Barts (davidb at scn.org) / http://www.scn.org/~davidb "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy." -- Wendell Berry * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From vme at jps.net Mon Sep 17 12:55:47 2001 From: vme at jps.net (Victor) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:55:47 -0700 Subject: SCN: RE: Re: National Day of Mourning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002101c13fb9$035cd640$0100007f@l1f1q8> I hear you are very concerned about what happened Tuesday. Probably for the killing of innocent lives as well as the pain inflicted on so many more people. And probably concerned about safety, for yourself, loved ones and others. I too am concerned about the above. I am also very frightened of our government. I am scared that in their efforts, they will cause an even greater amount of pain around the world. Already I hear government officials talking about revenge, regardless of the loss of innocent life. Pres. Bush is talking about a war with no borders, with no specified enemy, with no measurable goal. I fear that some people in this country are NOT taking my needs and the needs of people around the world into consideration as they go ahead with their strategy. While it was just before I was born, I am very much aware of the pain caused by another person who wanted to make the world a better place using violence. He was German. And I offer the following pledge of allegiance I saw on a t-shirt: I pledge allegiance to Mankind and to its flag, for which no one should die; and to evolving life on this planet, for living things are precious. I pledge to treat all humanely by caring for and respecting others' bodies; by understanding others' minds but being true to myself without disrespect; and by accepting the emotions of others as I control my own. I will have mercy on others with gentle liberty and empathetic justice for all. -- Misericordia Copyright: The Mankind First Co. 1987 Yours, Thomas -----Original Message----- From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Randy Groves Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 10:05 AM To: scn at scn.org Subject: SCN: Re: National Day of Mourning I have to admit that there is a part of me that in its anger is ready to lash out at the nearest target. There is a part of me that feels that in this 'release' there would be some relief to the visceral reactions that I am having in trying to wrap my mind around an event that is, in the end, not understandable in normal human terms. I think that there are a lot of people that feel this way. I don't know what the solutions are. The people that actually perpetrated this monstrosity have already paid. We can do no more to them. The others that assisted them need to be brought to justice. How and when that happens will unfold - but I hope that we can do it in a way that doesn't bring us down to their level. The level of hate that was reflected in these acts - which most reasoning people would consider insane - is mind bending. The strength of the feeling and conviction carried these people through months, perhaps YEARS of preparation. One note a friend of mine encountered indicated that there was precise calculation as to the floors to hit and the proper angle of the plane as it hit - in order to topple the buildings, not just damage them. If true, it just makes the enormity of the act even more chilling. We cannot and should not stoop to the same levels of hate. That is exactly what they want us to do. This was a strike against the fabric of our society. They want us to be paralyzed. I just read a good article: http://www.msnbc.com/news/628351_asp.htm, of ten things we can do as citizens of this country to show that we are NOT paralyzed. But I look at all of this, and as I try to deal with the thoughts of all the lives ended in terror, I realize that we, as Americans, have been taking our good fortune in this world a little too much for granted. While I don't agree with all of the people that tend to criticize all that the US does overseas, there is a part of me in all of this that, while it cannot in any way justify these murderers actions, nevertheless can see, in a very small way, that our position in the world may be part of the seed that flowered so tragically on Tuesday. There are millions, if not billions of people in this world that are, I believe, in unity about the barbarity and the incomprehensible nature of this event. What we do next will tell the tale. -randy On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Joe Mabel wrote: > Thank you, Sharma, for your very reasonable comments. > > As for er-chan: > I feel a little uncomfortable addressing someone I don't know over issues about > which they are obviously very emotional, but when you write what you did, I'm > rather offended. > > Of course I don't 'agree with what those monsters did', nor do > I support the Interahamwe in East Africa nor the actions of the Russian > government in Chechnya, etc. ad nauseum. Unlike the US government, I can > honestly claim never have to collaborated with (or even said a good word about) > Osama bin Laden (US ally against the Soviets in the Eighties) or Saddam Hussein > (US ally against Iran in the Eighties). > > I'm not a pacifist, but tell me, er-chan: exactly whom am I supposed to be at > war with? At the moment, I happen to be working in London, Englad, so my reports > from Seattle are sketchy. I do hear that people have been making bomb threats > against the mosque on Northgate. Is this the war for which you wish to enlist > me? > > SCN was not conceived to be a battleground. It was conceived as a place to > exchange ideas and information. I would hope that we would stick to a standard > that the cure for the ills of free speech is more free speech. It is my strong > expectation that (barring only the need to stay withi the laws of libel or > slander), our correct way of dealing with offensive content is to respond to it, > not to suppress it. > > That said, I'm sure pro-war propaganda is not short of outlets in the US right > now. I doubt SCN would be serving its primary purpose if it were to see itself > primarily in terms of serving the cause of any side in any war. > > Again, I will ask, as I asked before: is there specific content currently on SCN > that you are objecting to? If so, spell out what that content is. Otherwise, you > are coming on like Sen. Joe McCarthy claiming that the laundry list in his hand > was a list of 57 communists in the State Department. Is there specific content > you think we should link to that we don't link to? If so, spell out what that > content is. Or start a web page of your own, linking to the content you think is > inappropriately omitted from SCN, and ask SCN to link to that. If they > try to turn you down, I'll certainly be on your side in that fight. > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, sharma wrote: > > > > > > > er-chan wrote: > > > > > > > > > JJ> I think we need to _add_ links to diverse sites, and _especially_ > > > JJ> sites we don't agree with. > > > > > > JJ> > > > > > > Do you agree with what the monsters did? Would you add a site > > > to recruit more suicide bombers? base 3 > > > > > > Now for the homerun? Why have you and Rod CLark not addressed > > > the issues ? Today is National Day of Mourning. Got anything > > > on the website that mentions that these innocent people died and > > > you are sorry about it? Get with it, in a war there are sides. > > > !!!!Which side are you on? If you're not with us you're against us.!!!! > > > > Please do not stoop to such hysterical language in > > attempting to have others do what you wish. That > > is mob talk and is definitely not needed at this > > time of sadness for all those who have died. > > Please do not think you are honoring the dead by > > such heated words. > > > > We the living need justice.... > > > > -sharma > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 14:18:32 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: RE: Re: National Day of Mourning In-Reply-To: <002101c13fb9$035cd640$0100007f@l1f1q8> Message-ID: <20010917211832.79268.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> There is a Companion Flag website. The president of that organization wants to move his site to SCN for hosting. He taught the kids in my daughter's 4th grade class how to make Companion Flags. I think it's a nice idea. Many nations, but one "nation" of people in the world. Patrick --- Victor wrote: > I hear you are very concerned about what happened Tuesday. > Probably for the > killing of innocent lives as well as the pain inflicted on so many > more > people. And probably concerned about safety, for yourself, loved > ones and > others. > > I too am concerned about the above. > > I am also very frightened of our government. I am scared that in > their > efforts, they will cause an even greater amount of pain around the > world. > Already I hear government officials talking about revenge, > regardless of the > loss of innocent life. Pres. Bush is talking about a war with no > borders, > with no specified enemy, with no measurable goal. > > I fear that some people in this country are NOT taking my needs and > the > needs of people around the world into consideration as they go > ahead with > their strategy. > > While it was just before I was born, I am very much aware of the > pain caused > by another person who wanted to make the world a better place using > violence. He was German. > > And I offer the following pledge of allegiance I saw on a t-shirt: > > I pledge allegiance to Mankind and to its flag, for which no one > should die; > and to evolving life on this planet, for living things are > precious. > > I pledge to treat all humanely by caring for and respecting others' > bodies; > by understanding others' minds but being true to myself without > disrespect; > and by accepting the emotions of others as I control my own. > > I will have mercy on others with gentle liberty and empathetic > justice for > all. > > -- Misericordia > Copyright: The Mankind First Co. 1987 > > Yours, > > Thomas > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of > Randy > Groves > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 10:05 AM > To: scn at scn.org > Subject: SCN: Re: National Day of Mourning > > > > I have to admit that there is a part of me that in its anger is > ready to > lash out at the nearest target. There is a part of me that feels > that in > this 'release' there would be some relief to the visceral reactions > that I > am having in trying to wrap my mind around an event that is, in the > end, > not understandable in normal human terms. I think that there are a > lot of > people that feel this way. > > I don't know what the solutions are. The people that actually > perpetrated > this monstrosity have already paid. We can do no more to them. > The > others that assisted them need to be brought to justice. How and > when > that happens will unfold - but I hope that we can do it in a way > that > doesn't bring us down to their level. > > The level of hate that was reflected in these acts - which most > reasoning > people would consider insane - is mind bending. The strength of > the > feeling and conviction carried these people through months, perhaps > YEARS of preparation. One note a friend of mine encountered > indicated > that there was precise calculation as to the floors to hit and the > proper angle of the plane as it hit - in order to topple the > buildings, > not just damage them. If true, it just makes the enormity of the > act > even more chilling. > > We cannot and should not stoop to the same levels of hate. That is > exactly what they want us to do. This was a strike against the > fabric of > our society. They want us to be paralyzed. I just read a good > article: > http://www.msnbc.com/news/628351_asp.htm, of ten things we can do > as > citizens of this country to show that we are NOT paralyzed. > > But I look at all of this, and as I try to deal with the thoughts > of all > the lives ended in terror, I realize that we, as Americans, have > been > taking our good fortune in this world a little too much for > granted. > While I don't agree with all of the people that tend to criticize > all that > the US does overseas, there is a part of me in all of this that, > while it > cannot in any way justify these murderers actions, nevertheless can > see, > in a very small way, that our position in the world may be part of > the > seed that flowered so tragically on Tuesday. > > There are millions, if not billions of people in this world that > are, I > believe, in unity about the barbarity and the incomprehensible > nature of > this event. > > What we do next will tell the tale. > > -randy > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > Thank you, Sharma, for your very reasonable comments. > > > > As for er-chan: > > I feel a little uncomfortable addressing someone I don't know > over issues > about > > which they are obviously very emotional, but when you write what > you did, > I'm > > rather offended. > > > > Of course I don't 'agree with what those monsters did', nor do > > I support the Interahamwe in East Africa nor the actions of the > Russian > > government in Chechnya, etc. ad nauseum. Unlike the US > government, I can > > honestly claim never have to collaborated with (or even said a > good word > about) > > Osama bin Laden (US ally against the Soviets in the Eighties) or > Saddam > Hussein > > (US ally against Iran in the Eighties). > > > > I'm not a pacifist, but tell me, er-chan: exactly whom am I > supposed to be > at > > war with? At the moment, I happen to be working in London, > Englad, so my > reports > > from Seattle are sketchy. I do hear that people have been making > bomb > threats > > against the mosque on Northgate. Is this the war for which you > wish to > enlist > > me? > > > > SCN was not conceived to be a battleground. It was conceived as a > place to > > exchange ideas and information. I would hope that we would stick > to a > standard > > that the cure for the ills of free speech is more free speech. It > is my > strong > > expectation that (barring only the need to stay withi the laws of > libel or > > slander), our correct way of dealing with offensive content is to > respond > to it, > > not to suppress it. > > > > That said, I'm sure pro-war propaganda is not short of outlets in > the US > right > > now. I doubt SCN would be serving its primary purpose if it were > to see > itself > > primarily in terms of serving the cause of any side in any war. > > > > Again, I will ask, as I asked before: is there specific content > currently > on SCN > > that you are objecting to? If so, spell out what that content is. > Otherwise, you > > are coming on like Sen. Joe McCarthy claiming that the laundry > list in his > hand > > was a list of 57 communists in the State Department. Is there > specific > content > > you think we should link to that we don't link to? If so, spell > out what > that > > content is. Or start a web page of your own, linking to the > content you > think is > > inappropriately omitted from SCN, and ask SCN to link to that. If > they > > try to turn you down, I'll certainly be on your side in that > fight. > > > > -------------------- > > Joe Mabel > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, sharma wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > er-chan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > JJ> I think we need to _add_ links to diverse sites, and > _especially_ > > > > JJ> sites we don't agree with. > > > > > > > > JJ> > > > > > > > > Do you agree with what the monsters did? Would you > add a site > > > > to recruit more suicide bombers? base 3 > > > > > > > > Now for the homerun? Why have you and Rod CLark not > addressed > > > > the issues ? Today is National Day of Mourning. Got > anything > > > > on the website that mentions that these innocent people died > and > > > > you are sorry about it? Get with it, in a war there are > sides. > > > > !!!!Which side are you on? If you're not with us you're > against > us.!!!! > > > > > > Please do not stoop to such hysterical language in > > > attempting to have others do what you wish. That > > > is mob talk and is definitely not needed at this > > > time of sadness for all those who have died. > > > Please do not think you are honoring the dead by > > > such heated words. > > > > > > We the living need justice.... > > > > > > -sharma > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 14:20:59 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: What an asshole! In-Reply-To: <20010917114305.A28480@scn.scn.org> Message-ID: <20010917212059.71810.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Who is Ari Fleischer? Patrick --- David Barts wrote: > Did anyone else catch Ari Fleischer's (sp?) press conference this > morning, when he admitted that the Bush administration is going to > also > press ahead with its original partisan domestic policy agenda > despite > all the blather they've been spouting about "uniting Americans"? > > They have apparently just tipped their hand. They care very little > about national security and a great deal about amassing power at > any > and all costs. > > I now fear my government as much as those who recently destroyed > the > WTC. > > Congratulations, Jerkwad. Up until now I was ready to give you my > conditional support in this crisis. > > -- > David W. Barts (davidb at scn.org) / > http://www.scn.org/~davidb > "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of > supply and > demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the > laws of > justice and mercy." -- Wendell Berry > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From davidb at scn.org Mon Sep 17 16:04:13 2001 From: davidb at scn.org (David Barts) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:04:13 -0700 Subject: SCN: What an asshole! In-Reply-To: <20010917212059.71810.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com>; from clariun@yahoo.com on Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 02:20:59PM -0700 References: <20010917114305.A28480@scn.scn.org> <20010917212059.71810.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010917160413.A2695@scn.scn.org> patrick writes: > Who is Ari Fleischer? President Bush's press secretary. -- David W. Barts (davidb at scn.org) / http://www.scn.org/~davidb "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy." -- Wendell Berry * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Mon Sep 17 17:16:17 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: RE: Re: National Day of Mourning In-Reply-To: <002101c13fb9$035cd640$0100007f@l1f1q8> Message-ID: Victor, et al, I am so terrified that one of our 'higher authorities' will push the PANIC button (by mistake, just as any one of hits a wrong key & accidently deletes stuff). I feel we are in for a tough time ahead with much more to come. My gut feeling right now, is that in this week of Jewish High Holy Days, there will be trouble either this week, Rosh Hashona tonight and tomorrow or next week for Yom Kippur. I don't want revenge - that brings us all down to their level but to wipe out their leaders, not all the innocent ones. Haven't had my afternoon report from my daughter yet, so don't know the actual latest from WTC. Irene On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Victor wrote: > I hear you are very concerned about what happened Tuesday. Probably for the > killing of innocent lives as well as the pain inflicted on so many more > people. And probably concerned about safety, for yourself, loved ones and > others. > > I too am concerned about the above. > > I am also very frightened of our government. I am scared that in their > efforts, they will cause an even greater amount of pain around the world. > Already I hear government officials talking about revenge, regardless of the > loss of innocent life. Pres. Bush is talking about a war with no borders, > with no specified enemy, with no measurable goal. > > I fear that some people in this country are NOT taking my needs and the > needs of people around the world into consideration as they go ahead with > their strategy. > > While it was just before I was born, I am very much aware of the pain caused > by another person who wanted to make the world a better place using > violence. He was German. > > And I offer the following pledge of allegiance I saw on a t-shirt: > > I pledge allegiance to Mankind and to its flag, for which no one should die; > and to evolving life on this planet, for living things are precious. > > I pledge to treat all humanely by caring for and respecting others' bodies; > by understanding others' minds but being true to myself without disrespect; > and by accepting the emotions of others as I control my own. > > I will have mercy on others with gentle liberty and empathetic justice for > all. > > -- Misericordia > Copyright: The Mankind First Co. 1987 > > Yours, > > Thomas > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Randy > Groves > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 10:05 AM > To: scn at scn.org > Subject: SCN: Re: National Day of Mourning > > > > I have to admit that there is a part of me that in its anger is ready to > lash out at the nearest target. There is a part of me that feels that in > this 'release' there would be some relief to the visceral reactions that I > am having in trying to wrap my mind around an event that is, in the end, > not understandable in normal human terms. I think that there are a lot of > people that feel this way. > > I don't know what the solutions are. The people that actually perpetrated > this monstrosity have already paid. We can do no more to them. The > others that assisted them need to be brought to justice. How and when > that happens will unfold - but I hope that we can do it in a way that > doesn't bring us down to their level. > > The level of hate that was reflected in these acts - which most reasoning > people would consider insane - is mind bending. The strength of the > feeling and conviction carried these people through months, perhaps > YEARS of preparation. One note a friend of mine encountered indicated > that there was precise calculation as to the floors to hit and the > proper angle of the plane as it hit - in order to topple the buildings, > not just damage them. If true, it just makes the enormity of the act > even more chilling. > > We cannot and should not stoop to the same levels of hate. That is > exactly what they want us to do. This was a strike against the fabric of > our society. They want us to be paralyzed. I just read a good article: > http://www.msnbc.com/news/628351_asp.htm, of ten things we can do as > citizens of this country to show that we are NOT paralyzed. > > But I look at all of this, and as I try to deal with the thoughts of all > the lives ended in terror, I realize that we, as Americans, have been > taking our good fortune in this world a little too much for granted. > While I don't agree with all of the people that tend to criticize all that > the US does overseas, there is a part of me in all of this that, while it > cannot in any way justify these murderers actions, nevertheless can see, > in a very small way, that our position in the world may be part of the > seed that flowered so tragically on Tuesday. > > There are millions, if not billions of people in this world that are, I > believe, in unity about the barbarity and the incomprehensible nature of > this event. > > What we do next will tell the tale. > > -randy > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > Thank you, Sharma, for your very reasonable comments. > > > > As for er-chan: > > I feel a little uncomfortable addressing someone I don't know over issues > about > > which they are obviously very emotional, but when you write what you did, > I'm > > rather offended. > > > > Of course I don't 'agree with what those monsters did', nor do > > I support the Interahamwe in East Africa nor the actions of the Russian > > government in Chechnya, etc. ad nauseum. Unlike the US government, I can > > honestly claim never have to collaborated with (or even said a good word > about) > > Osama bin Laden (US ally against the Soviets in the Eighties) or Saddam > Hussein > > (US ally against Iran in the Eighties). > > > > I'm not a pacifist, but tell me, er-chan: exactly whom am I supposed to be > at > > war with? At the moment, I happen to be working in London, Englad, so my > reports > > from Seattle are sketchy. I do hear that people have been making bomb > threats > > against the mosque on Northgate. Is this the war for which you wish to > enlist > > me? > > > > SCN was not conceived to be a battleground. It was conceived as a place to > > exchange ideas and information. I would hope that we would stick to a > standard > > that the cure for the ills of free speech is more free speech. It is my > strong > > expectation that (barring only the need to stay withi the laws of libel or > > slander), our correct way of dealing with offensive content is to respond > to it, > > not to suppress it. > > > > That said, I'm sure pro-war propaganda is not short of outlets in the US > right > > now. I doubt SCN would be serving its primary purpose if it were to see > itself > > primarily in terms of serving the cause of any side in any war. > > > > Again, I will ask, as I asked before: is there specific content currently > on SCN > > that you are objecting to? If so, spell out what that content is. > Otherwise, you > > are coming on like Sen. Joe McCarthy claiming that the laundry list in his > hand > > was a list of 57 communists in the State Department. Is there specific > content > > you think we should link to that we don't link to? If so, spell out what > that > > content is. Or start a web page of your own, linking to the content you > think is > > inappropriately omitted from SCN, and ask SCN to link to that. If they > > try to turn you down, I'll certainly be on your side in that fight. > > > > -------------------- > > Joe Mabel > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, sharma wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > er-chan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > JJ> I think we need to _add_ links to diverse sites, and > _especially_ > > > > JJ> sites we don't agree with. > > > > > > > > JJ> > > > > > > > > Do you agree with what the monsters did? Would you add a site > > > > to recruit more suicide bombers? base 3 > > > > > > > > Now for the homerun? Why have you and Rod CLark not addressed > > > > the issues ? Today is National Day of Mourning. Got anything > > > > on the website that mentions that these innocent people died and > > > > you are sorry about it? Get with it, in a war there are sides. > > > > !!!!Which side are you on? If you're not with us you're against > us.!!!! > > > > > > Please do not stoop to such hysterical language in > > > attempting to have others do what you wish. That > > > is mob talk and is definitely not needed at this > > > time of sadness for all those who have died. > > > Please do not think you are honoring the dead by > > > such heated words. > > > > > > We the living need justice.... > > > > > > -sharma > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From davidb at scn.org Mon Sep 17 18:18:52 2001 From: davidb at scn.org (David Barts) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:18:52 -0700 Subject: SCN: The Bush definition of 'not dividing America' Message-ID: <20010917181852.A27786@scn.scn.org> From: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010917-8.html [...] Q What items on the President's legislative agenda are now on the back burner, shelved for the year? MR. FLEISCHER: None. It was interesting -- none. It was interesting, at the meeting last week with the Cabinet, the meeting of the Cabinet was called for the purpose of discussing what the Cabinet members, again, in collecting information from Cabinet Secretaries about the status of combatting the attack on our country and dealing with it. At the end of the meeting, however, the President called on all the members of the Cabinet to take action on our domestic agenda. The President reminded them that a patients' bill of rights remains important; that there are a series of initiatives that are pending up on the Hill that remain important. And he called on them to get done, including education reform, which the President reminded them remains a top priority domestically. Q He doesn't expect to get it, surely? MR. FLEISCHER: You know, Helen, I think it's interesting, the Congress still has a job to do and we still are a constitutional system and that's what has kept us strong and that's what is going to enable us to win. So there is a domestic agenda, the President is committed to it. I think it's fair to say that you'll hear less about it because of the dominance, obviously, of dealing with an attack on our country. But the President told the Cabinet members to be dedicated to it and members of our staff are. [...] Q Can I just follow up on Helen's question. The President would like those issues addressed this year, patients' rights, education and everything that was on the plate, trade promotion authority, still this year? MR. FLEISCHER: That was his charge to the Cabinet members. Q Now, wouldn't that foster some disunity on the Hill? I mean, a lot of those are very contentious issues and he's looking for a united Congress. MR. FLEISCHER: You know, Keith, I guess that's one way to look at it. I don't think that's the way the President looks at it. And I think that in the wake of this there is a different mood in the Congress, and in the Presidency about working with each other and cooperating with each other. So I've made no such presumption. The issue should be, proceed with the people's business on the domestic front and work together. [...] -- David W. Barts (davidb at scn.org) / http://www.scn.org/~davidb "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy." -- Wendell Berry * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan at scn.org Tue Sep 18 00:02:01 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 00:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: response to er-chan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In all the discussion about the lack of recognition of the September 11 holocaust Rod CLark who signed his name as webmaster, not once let on that he doesn't edit the main scn page!! Now there is a Patrick from yahoo.com who the past few days he begun to sign his name as webmaster. Most normal people assume the webmaster has control of the webpages. except in this organization. WHoever is controlling the webpage: speak up. Why is there nothing about 9/11 on the webpage and why did you not dare speak up before? Hello Joe Mabel (On 09/17/01,1:36am,you wrote Re: response to er-chan) JM> Rod Clark does not edit the home page, and hasn't for a year. All JM> I can say is, I'm sure glad you don't edit it.#I would do a much better job if I had the time# The rest of your ramblings of an old man speaking about McCarthy don't deserve any comment. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan at scn.org Tue Sep 18 00:12:14 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 00:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: response to er-chan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello er-chan (On 09/18/01,12:02am,you wrote Re: Re: response to er-chan) e> In all the discussion about the lack of recognition of the September 11 e> holocaust Rod CLark who signed his name as webmaster, not once let on e> that he doesn't edit the main scn page!! e> Now there is a Patrick from yahoo.com who e> the past few days he begun to sign his name as webmaster. e> Most normal people assume the webmaster has control of the webpages. e> except in this organization. WHoever is controlling the webpage: e> speak up. Why is there nothing about 9/11 on the webpage and e> why did you not dare speak up before? e> e> Hello Joe Mabel (On 09/17/01,1:36am,you wrote Re: response to er-chan) e> JM> Rod Clark does not edit the home page, and hasn't for a year. All e> JM> I can say is, I'm sure glad you don't edit it.#I would do e> a much better job if I had the time# e> e> e> The rest of your ramblings of an old man speaking about McCarthy e> don't deserve any comment. e> e> e> e> _,--------, .-. \ o / elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 08:10:11 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: response to er-chan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010918151011.36636.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Er-Chan, I will simply say we did not mention the 9/11 incident because of a number of reasons that I would rather not bore people with. I feel there are adequate sources of information elsewhere. Also, it is SCN's job to serve the local community and that is where focus should be maintained. Thanks, Patrick Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator --- er-chan wrote: > Hello er-chan (On 09/18/01,12:02am,you wrote Re: Re: response to > er-chan) > > e> In all the discussion about the lack of recognition of the > September 11 > e> holocaust Rod CLark who signed his name as webmaster, not once > let on > e> that he doesn't edit the main scn page!! > e> Now there is a Patrick from yahoo.com who > e> the past few days he begun to sign his name as webmaster. > e> Most normal people assume the webmaster has control of the > webpages. > e> except in this organization. WHoever is controlling the > webpage: > e> speak up. Why is there nothing about 9/11 on the webpage and > e> why did you not dare speak up before? > e> > e> Hello Joe Mabel (On 09/17/01,1:36am,you wrote Re: response to > er-chan) > e> JM> Rod Clark does not edit the home page, and hasn't for a > year. All > e> JM> I can say is, I'm sure glad you don't edit it.#I would do > e> a much better job if I had the time# > e> > e> > e> The rest of your ramblings of an old man speaking about McCarthy > e> don't deserve any comment. > e> > e> > e> > e> > > _,--------, .-. \ o / > elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| > `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ > \o > _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( > \ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Sep 18 08:15:50 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: response to er-chan In-Reply-To: <20010918151011.36636.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No apology necessary Patrick! This isn't a tribunal!!! -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > Er-Chan, > > I will simply say we did not mention the 9/11 incident because of a > number of reasons that I would rather not bore people with. > > I feel there are adequate sources of information elsewhere. Also, it > is SCN's job to serve the local community and that is where focus > should be maintained. > > Thanks, > Patrick > Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator > > > > > > --- er-chan wrote: > > Hello er-chan (On 09/18/01,12:02am,you wrote Re: Re: response to > > er-chan) > > > > e> In all the discussion about the lack of recognition of the > > September 11 > > e> holocaust Rod CLark who signed his name as webmaster, not once > > let on > > e> that he doesn't edit the main scn page!! > > e> Now there is a Patrick from yahoo.com who > > e> the past few days he begun to sign his name as webmaster. > > e> Most normal people assume the webmaster has control of the > > webpages. > > e> except in this organization. WHoever is controlling the > > webpage: > > e> speak up. Why is there nothing about 9/11 on the webpage and > > e> why did you not dare speak up before? > > e> > > e> Hello Joe Mabel (On 09/17/01,1:36am,you wrote Re: response to > > er-chan) > > e> JM> Rod Clark does not edit the home page, and hasn't for a > > year. All > > e> JM> I can say is, I'm sure glad you don't edit it.#I would do > > e> a much better job if I had the time# > > e> > > e> > > e> The rest of your ramblings of an old man speaking about McCarthy > > e> don't deserve any comment. > > e> > > e> > > e> > > e> > > > > _,--------, .-. \ o / > > elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| > > `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ > > \o > > _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( > > \ > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From alboss at home.com Tue Sep 18 08:47:17 2001 From: alboss at home.com (alboss at home.com) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:47:17 -0400 Subject: SCN: RE: 9/11 and SCN homepage Message-ID: Patrick raises a good point. We are about community, specifically the local community. Our community, like every other one around the world, has been profoundly affected by the loss of lives last week. Are any of the local sites featuring how our community is responding to the events of last week, and offering links to local resources (from donations to counseling to information)? If so, it would serve our constituency to have a link to that site prominently displayed on our home page. And, if there is no such online resource for our area, it's another opportunity for SCN to serve its community by offering what no one else has done. Provided, of course, we can find the volunteer(s) to put it together in the first place (unless this falls under Patrick's pervue, in which case I think I just volunteered him!). Al -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 09:00:19 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: RE: 9/11 and SCN homepage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010918160019.43116.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> I suppose we could be a Red Cross number up, but I have seen the Red Cross number and information posted more frequently online and elsewhere than I've seen George Schultz's Starbucks logo. George should be insanely jealous by now. Patrick --- "alboss at home.com" wrote: > Patrick raises a good point. > > We are about community, specifically the local community. Our > community, like every other one around the world, has been > profoundly affected by the loss of lives last week. Are any of the > local sites featuring how our community is responding to the events > of last week, and offering links to local resources (from donations > to counseling to information)? > > If so, it would serve our constituency to have a link to that site > prominently displayed on our home page. And, if there is no such > online resource for our area, it's another opportunity for SCN to > serve its community by offering what no one else has done. > Provided, of course, we can find the volunteer(s) to put it > together in the first place (unless this falls under Patrick's > pervue, in which case I think I just volunteered him!). > > Al > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 09:05:26 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: RE: 9/11 and SCN homepage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010918160526.10541.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Please forgive me if I sounded apathetic in my last posting. However, as I had mentioned, there were some reasons the site did not mention the tragedy (for one, I did not feel we were required to). Also, the Red Cross information quickly reached a saturation level in the media and elsewhere. If someone would like to create a page of information on resources for the tragedy, please let me know and we can put it up. And post it prominently. Patrick --- "alboss at home.com" wrote: > Patrick raises a good point. > > We are about community, specifically the local community. Our > community, like every other one around the world, has been > profoundly affected by the loss of lives last week. Are any of the > local sites featuring how our community is responding to the events > of last week, and offering links to local resources (from donations > to counseling to information)? > > If so, it would serve our constituency to have a link to that site > prominently displayed on our home page. And, if there is no such > online resource for our area, it's another opportunity for SCN to > serve its community by offering what no one else has done. > Provided, of course, we can find the volunteer(s) to put it > together in the first place (unless this falls under Patrick's > pervue, in which case I think I just volunteered him!). > > Al > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Tue Sep 18 10:17:58 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: petition to george bush and other world leaders Message-ID: <200109181717.KAA22042@scn.org> This petition has apparently generated over 100,000 signatures. -- Doug > Dear friends: What follows is a petition that will be forwarded to > President Bush and other world leaders, urging them to avoid war as an > automatic response to the terrorist attacks against the World Trade > Center and the Pentagon last week. Please read it, and if you agree with > it, sign at the petition site > (http://home.uchicago.edu/~dhpicker/petition), and forward the link to > as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. We must circulate > this immediately in order to have any effect at all, as the Congress of > The United States has already passed a resolution supporting any > military action President Bush deems appropriate. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Sep 18 10:22:37 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: RE: 9/11 and SCN homepage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What I was responding to is that nobody has to take a loyalty oath. I hope that went out in the 50's. As for our home page, presumably that problem is being worked. As for SCN being out *community* I couldn't agree more. But it's certainly not just for Seattle. The interconnectedness of everybody is made abundantly clear by this disaster and helping to build a better public sphere for everybody is all the more important in light of all of this. - Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, alboss at home.com wrote: > Patrick raises a good point. > > We are about community, specifically the local community. Our community, like every other one around the world, has been profoundly affected by the loss of lives last week. Are any of the local sites featuring how our community is responding to the events of last week, and offering links to local resources (from donations to counseling to information)? > > If so, it would serve our constituency to have a link to that site prominently displayed on our home page. And, if there is no such online resource for our area, it's another opportunity for SCN to serve its community by offering what no one else has done. Provided, of course, we can find the volunteer(s) to put it together in the first place (unless this falls under Patrick's pervue, in which case I think I just volunteered him!). > > Al > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 10:44:56 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN's web front page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010918174456.94939.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Randy, Here is the website for the bulletin board system software: http://www.discusware.com/discus/ Patrick __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Sep 18 11:16:57 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: Global CN 2001 In-Reply-To: <3BA66120.564887D3@ciudad.com.ar> Message-ID: Here is a note that I received from Susana Finquelievich in Buenos Aires about an upcoming conference there in which I'll be speaking about SCN and other issues. Susana was in Seattle at DIAC-00 and is on the program committee for DIAC-02. Although we should beware (IMO) of thinking that SCN is the *answer* I really don't want us to trivialize our efforts. As you can see in her note below, Susana takes them very seriously. Also, there is talk about trying to get the UN interested in community networks on a more global basis. (Maybe some SCNites can venture down to Buenos Aires this December.....??) -- Doug On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Susana Finquelievich wrote: > Dear Friends: > > In these days, I have received worried mails from many of you, asking > if, given the world crisis, and the economic Argentinean problems, the > II World Congress of Community Networks, global CN 2001, that will take > place in Buenos Aires, on December 5 to 7, will be effectively carried > out. > > The answer is a resolute YES. > > The Buenos Aires Organizing Group (GOBA), together with community > organizations in Argentina and abroad, considers that this is the moment > to strengthen community networks, capable to build global solidarities > and to stimulate local developments. It is more necessary than ever to > go on struggling for human rights, such as economic and social > inclusion, the abolition of the Digital Divide, the reinforcement of > identities and cultures, for privacy, and individual, as well as social, > rights; against North � South imbalances in access to Information > Society. It is also mandatory to debate the role of community > organizations and community informatics in the present world scenario. > > For these reasons, we are advancing to the Congress, as you can see in > our website, http://www.globalcn2001.org. > > Our strength, at international level, is the development and increasing > interaction of a number of community organizations in Europe, Latin > America, North America, Africa, Oceania, and Asia; at local level, it�s > our mixed organization partnership, conformed by the University of > Buenos Aires, the largest in the country, representing the academic > sector; the Federal Council of Investments, a strong government organism > that represents the Provinces, and CICOMRA, the Argentina Chamber of > Informatics and Telecommunications Enterprises, as representative of the > private sector. Local and international Community organizations support > us and participate actively in the Congress. > > We expect to see you all in Buenos Aires. > > Greetings to all, > > Susana Finquelievich > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Tue Sep 18 13:21:41 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: response to er-chan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My sentiments exactly Irene On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, er-chan wrote: > WHoever is controlling the webpage: > speak up. Why is there nothing about 9/11 on the webpage and > why did you not dare speak up before? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 13:30:30 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: Global CN 2001 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010918203030.75387.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, Thank you for sharing that. It's nice to know where SCN sits in relationship other communities, online and elsewhere. It certainly gives perspective. Patrick P.S. I ran into my daughter's teacher at REI today where my daughter's class was climbing the rock there. I told the teacher that I work with SCN and that I was browsing SCN's webpages and came across the Seattle Sundial Trail (http://www.sundials.co.uk/~seattle.htm) and I noticed that the page did not have mention of a sundial on the side of the building of my daughter's school. I emailed Woody, who runs the site, about the sundial and he said, yes, he hadn't updated the site in a long time. I offered to take a picture with my digital camera,but he said he had some. Well, he had worked with my daughter's teacher for two years to build the sundial. He told me to say hi to her and I did today. Another person recently wanted to put the Companion Flag website on SCN, host it here. I told my daughter about it as I had seen a bumpersticker for the Companion Flag and she said that the person who runs Companion Flag had come to her class and they made Companion Flags. Such a small world. --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > Here is a note that I received from Susana Finquelievich > in Buenos Aires about an upcoming conference there in which > I'll be speaking about SCN and other issues. Susana was > in Seattle at DIAC-00 and is on the program committee for > DIAC-02. Although we should beware (IMO) of thinking that > SCN is the *answer* I really don't want us to trivialize our > efforts. As you can see in her note below, Susana takes > them very seriously. Also, there is talk about trying to > get the UN interested in community networks on a more global > basis. (Maybe some SCNites can venture down to Buenos Aires > this December.....??) > > -- Doug > > On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Susana Finquelievich wrote: > > > Dear Friends: > > > > In these days, I have received worried mails from many of you, > asking > > if, given the world crisis, and the economic Argentinean > problems, the > > II World Congress of Community Networks, global CN 2001, that > will take > > place in Buenos Aires, on December 5 to 7, will be effectively > carried > > out. > > > > The answer is a resolute YES. > > > > The Buenos Aires Organizing Group (GOBA), together with community > > organizations in Argentina and abroad, considers that this is the > moment > > to strengthen community networks, capable to build global > solidarities > > and to stimulate local developments. It is more necessary than > ever to > > go on struggling for human rights, such as economic and social > > inclusion, the abolition of the Digital Divide, the reinforcement > of > > identities and cultures, for privacy, and individual, as well as > social, > > rights; against North � South imbalances in access to Information > > Society. It is also mandatory to debate the role of community > > organizations and community informatics in the present world > scenario. > > > > For these reasons, we are advancing to the Congress, as you can > see in > > our website, http://www.globalcn2001.org. > > > > Our strength, at international level, is the development and > increasing > > interaction of a number of community organizations in Europe, > Latin > > America, North America, Africa, Oceania, and Asia; at local > level, it�s > > our mixed organization partnership, conformed by the University > of > > Buenos Aires, the largest in the country, representing the > academic > > sector; the Federal Council of Investments, a strong government > organism > > that represents the Provinces, and CICOMRA, the Argentina Chamber > of > > Informatics and Telecommunications Enterprises, as representative > of the > > private sector. Local and international Community organizations > support > > us and participate actively in the Congress. > > > > We expect to see you all in Buenos Aires. > > > > Greetings to all, > > > > Susana Finquelievich > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 15:02:24 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN's web front page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010918220224.86869.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Lorraine, Please let me know what you are interested in and we can work something out - this week. Thanks, Patrick --- Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > > I don't know what's going on lately. I do know that I offered > to take over some of the tasks that NancyK had been doing > before she died and was given such an absurd runaround that > I finally decided it was pointless to volunteer. Among other > requirements - I had to speak directly with Nancy! > > I am not surprised that SCN is hurting for cash. In fact, > when I saw the money plea, I thought I knew just how > Dr. Lewinski felt when the Democratic Party asked for his > check. > > Lorraine > ------------------- > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > > Randy Groves wrote: > > > 'rwrap' is NOT required. It was suggested as a tool, to > provide backup in > > > case of errors - NOT required. > > > > > > There have been NO restrictions imposed, either > programmatically nor by > > > policy that removes the ability to edit files with vi, pico, > etc. > > > > Randy, > > > > That is not true, on both counts. The home page has total > > no-write permissions for the members of the topics group, who if > > your ststement were true would have write access to edit it with > > pico or other text editors. But they do NOT have that access. > > See for yourself: > > > > 4 -r-xr-xr-x 1 guests topics 3728 Aug 21 13:12 > index.html* > > > > The ONLY way that the home page can be updated is by using > > rwrap. You are misleading everyone when you say this is > > optional. > > > > It is also now required by policy to use rwrap. I asked the > > acting Executive Director on Thursday, "Will you remove rwrap so > > that Patrick can update the home page?" The answer was "no." > > > > Because Patrick couldn't FTP the home page file last week > > (because of the no-write permissions that block FTP), he asked > > me for help with rwrap, which I tried to give him based on my > > recollection of an earlier version of rwrap, but it wasn't > > enough to get the page up. The page still isn't up. And this is > > the actual, truthful reason. That is the answer to the question > > that the three volunteers - Irene, Lee and Elaine - asked on > > this list. > > > > Communicating with ourselves, and with all the volunteers, is > > vitally important, and it can't be left to the PR efforts of > > only a few people in top positions. You and I both were confused > > about this, because of the lack of forthright communications > > with volunteers about the situation. Content is being sacrificed > > because technical considerations like this are being placed > > first by a leadership with a too-stubborn technical focus. And > > this is the future of SCN's site, and of SCN itself, before our > > eyes. > > > > Rod Clark > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 15:03:49 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: menu updates [was Re: SCN: Re: The Hunger Site] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010918220349.74428.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Rod, Thank you for the update, sorry that your mail got buried in my large inbox. Will keep this in mind. Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > Patrick, > > This morning's updates to the What's New page include all the > Information Providers that I know about who have recently > published election-related information. The Stonewall Democrats > have rated primary candidates, but that info isn't up on their > site. If you know of other sites hosted on SCN who have lately > added primary election content, please add them to the What's > New page on or before Tuesday. So far, we have: > > ----- > September 16 > > Citizens' Campaign for Commercial-Free School [link] > CCCS Newsletter: August, 2001 [link] > > In the August newsletter, CCCS reviews the school board > candidates running in the September 18 primary election, and > endorses three of them. > > League of Women Voters of Seattle [link] > How to Register and Vote [link] > > Public Forum on Ballot Issues > Thursday, October 4 from 7:30 - 9:00 p.m. > Seattle First Baptist Church at Seneca and Harvard > Free to the public! For more information, contact > lwvseattle at aol.com > > 25th Annual Political Party & Auction > Sunday, October 28, 2001 > WestCoast Grand Hotel, Emerald Ballroom, 5th Floor > > "This is a nonpartisan event attended by members, supporters, > office holders and candidates. ... Reservation Deadline: > October 12, 2001" > > Seattle Metropolitan Elections Committee [link] > SNOMEC (Snohomish County Elections Committee) [link] > > "SEAMEC is a non-partisan civic organization that rates > candidates running for political and judicial office in > Seattle, King County, and the State of Washington. SEAMEC > evaluates candidates on their knowledge of, record of proven > activism for, and commitment to the concerns of the gay, > lesbian, bisexual and transgendered (GLBT) communities. ... > > "Fifty-nine candidates accepted invitations for face-to-face > interviews in Seattle and Federal Way, answering questions > about civil rights, youth, family and health issues and > general awareness. ... > > "SNOMEC, a sister organization based in Snohomish County > conducted ten interviews, rated twenty candidates for the > Washington State Legislature and the Snohomish County Council > and endorsed two of them." > > University District Food Bank [link] > > Take a Bite Out of Hunger Benefit and Silent Auction > Thursday, September 20 from 6:00 - 8:30 p.m. > Rain Forest Cafe at the west end of Woodland Park Zoo > > "This event is the biggest fundraiser for the Food Bank. The > auction features donated items by local merchants, artists, > restaurants, board members and food bank supporters. ... For > tickets or to donate to the Auction please call the Food Bank > at 523-7060." > > ----- > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From linux_lance at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 15:42:20 2001 From: linux_lance at yahoo.com (Miller Lance) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: post S11 agenda Message-ID: <20010918224220.46002.qmail@web20602.mail.yahoo.com> Here is my synopsis on the post S11 US. http://grace.evergreen.edu/~millan06/ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Tue Sep 18 17:29:58 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: response to er-chan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi there, If I haven't covered everyone, sorry, I'm not tracking to well. Pleae pass this message on to anyone you can think of THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. If anyone speaks any of the Arabic or Farci languages, please contact the FBI because they are in desparate need of language people. If you know anyone back east also, ask them to contact the FBI. The situation is getting very serious, so far the FBI has lined up over 40,000 people to question/interrogate. Thank you, Also, FYI, my daughter was able to get back into her apartment tonite. They have electric and water, but NO PHONE service. They don't know when that will happen. Again, please keep the E-Mails as free from clutter as possible. That is still the main line of communication, alathough it too, is faulty. Again, PLEASE SEND MONEY TO THE AMERICAN RED CROSS - IT'S IMPERATIVE Also, plese tell anyone you know in NY to keep on cheering on the fire and police depts at the scene. They are most appreciative and it is what keeps them going. FYI - The #7WTC building is still a smoking smoldering mess. Lori said the they have 2 choices - keep the windows open and get the smoke coming in or close the windows and smell the rotting garbage that has accumulated both in the building and in the supermarket downstairs. Again, thanx to all. And to all, A VERY HAPPY AND HEALTHY NEW YEAR.... ### On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > > Irene, > > You know as well as I do that there is nothing on the front page because > SCN is very disorganized! There hasn't been anything there ALL > YEAR!! To think otherwise is misguided IMO and doesn't do anybody > any good. > > BTW, I've appreciated your comments on observations on > the NYC scene. > > -- Doug > > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Irene Mogol wrote: > > > My sentiments exactly > > Irene > > > > > > On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, er-chan wrote: > > > > > WHoever is controlling the webpage: > > > speak up. Why is there nothing about 9/11 on the webpage and > > > why did you not dare speak up before? > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Tue Sep 18 17:33:10 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: RE: 9/11 and SCN homepage In-Reply-To: <20010918160526.10541.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At the library today, I noticed a button on SCN web mail about 'Alert on America'. It opened onto my Yahoo. Was that from SCN or is it on everything? If it is from SCN - thank you. Irene On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > Please forgive me if I sounded apathetic in my last posting. However, > as I had mentioned, there were some reasons the site did not mention > the tragedy (for one, I did not feel we were required to). > > Also, the Red Cross information quickly reached a saturation level in > the media and elsewhere. > > If someone would like to create a page of information on resources > for the tragedy, please let me know and we can put it up. And post it > prominently. > > Patrick > > > --- "alboss at home.com" wrote: > > Patrick raises a good point. > > > > We are about community, specifically the local community. Our > > community, like every other one around the world, has been > > profoundly affected by the loss of lives last week. Are any of the > > local sites featuring how our community is responding to the events > > of last week, and offering links to local resources (from donations > > to counseling to information)? > > > > If so, it would serve our constituency to have a link to that site > > prominently displayed on our home page. And, if there is no such > > online resource for our area, it's another opportunity for SCN to > > serve its community by offering what no one else has done. > > Provided, of course, we can find the volunteer(s) to put it > > together in the first place (unless this falls under Patrick's > > pervue, in which case I think I just volunteered him!). > > > > Al > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Tue Sep 18 17:37:42 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: RE: 9/11 and SCN homepage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another request please - Does anyone have a connection at the UW, Linguistics Dept or any other college of Univ that I can pass on my request for Arabic &/or Farci speakers. Have them call the FBI to see how they can help. Thanx, Irene * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Tue Sep 18 18:55:14 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: "Why is there nothing..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For those of you who want to know "why is there nothing about 9/11 on the webpage": what do you want? Is this tragedy some how diminished simply because we have not parroted news that everyone in the nation (and most of the known world) already knows? What special knowledge does SCN have that needs posting? Or are we expected to demonstrate our much vaunted independence with immediate and reflexive displays of mass conformity? Is the freedom to be independent now contingent on the national mood? If you have some suggestions for something that really ought to be on the home page, by all means suggest them. But I would hope that this tragedy not be cheapened, nor our freedom and independence tarnished, by facile displays of mass conformity. Or by yielding to unthinking passion. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan at scn.org Tue Sep 18 21:22:43 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: ..9/11 "incident"...boring... In-Reply-To: <20010918151011.36636.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello patrick (On 09/18/01,8:10am,you wrote Re: Re: SCN: Re: response to... p> Er-Chan, p> p> I will simply say we did not mention the 9/11 incident because of a p> number of reasons that I would rather not bore people with. p> This has generated so much discussion it's hard to believe people find it boring. One observor was at the Holland tunnel area and saw bodies raining down(many many). You could see it from a distance. Another observor was across the street, saw white "snow" coming down, curious she looked, saw flames, her supervisors told everyone to run, she ran and so did everyone, then she felt like fainting so she took her chances and ran to the subway and rode home. So many were not so fortunate as to escape. p> I feel there are adequate sources of information elsewhere. Also, it p> is SCN's job to serve the local community and that is where focus p> should be maintained. In a terrorist war (they started u might agree) we are all soldiers. Boeing is cutting 20K-30K people in this area it was announced. We do have a global economy and we can not always say what is "local". Happy New Year to all who are celebrating Rosh Hoshanah and Yom Kippur(the day of Atonement )! p> p> Thanks, p> Patrick p> Webmaster/Web Team Coordinator p> p> p> p> p> p> --- er-chan wrote: p> > Hello er-chan (On 09/18/01,12:02am,you wrote Re: Re: response to p> > er-chan) p> > p> > e> In all the discussion about the lack of recognition of the p> > September 11 p> > e> holocaust Rod CLark who signed his name as webmaster, not once p> > let on p> > e> that he doesn't edit the main scn page!! p> > e> Now there is a Patrick from yahoo.com who p> > e> the past few days he begun to sign his name as webmaster. p> > e> Most normal people assume the webmaster has control of the p> > webpages. p> > e> except in this organization. WHoever is controlling the p> > webpage: p> > e> speak up. Why is there nothing about 9/11 on the webpage and p> > e> why did you not dare speak up before? p> > e> p> > e> Hello Joe Mabel (On 09/17/01,1:36am,you wrote Re: response to p> > er-chan) p> > e> JM> Rod Clark does not edit the home page, and hasn't for a p> > year. All p> > e> JM> I can say is, I'm sure glad you don't edit it.#I would do p> > e> a much better job if I had the time# p> > e> p> > e> p> > e> The rest of your ramblings of an old man speaking about McCarthy p> > e> don't deserve any comment. p> > e> p> > e> p> > e> p> > e> p> > p> > _,--------, .-. \ o / p> > elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| p> > `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ p> > \o p> > _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( p> > \ p> > p> > p> > p> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * p> > * * * p> > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: p> > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: p> > unsubscribe scn p> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: p> > ==== p> > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * p> > * * * p> p> p> __________________________________________________ p> Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? p> Donate cash, emergency relief information p> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ p> _,--------, .-. \ o / elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Wed Sep 19 00:10:20 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: W32/Nimda virus advisory Message-ID: Anyone using Microsoft operating systems should note an advisory issued by CERT regarding the 'W32/Nimda' (or 'Concept Virus'). This virus is notable for having several modes of attack. In some cases you could be infected just by browsing an infected web server. (Not SCN! as we don't run MS software.) As an e-mail attachment, it can infect your machine without you explicitly opening the attachment, as your mail reader does it automatically. See www.cert.org for details. Fortunately, it does not do much damage, but it could easily jam your local network. (SCN is seeing significant traffic from infected sites probing for backdoors left by the Code Red and sadm worms.) CERT recommends that all MS users do the following: - Get and apply the appropriate patches from Microsoft. - Use anti-virus software. - Don't open e-mail attachments! (At least not without checking, first.) - Disable JavaScript. Please note that you do not have to worry about any of this if you do not use Microsoft software, or if you read your e-mail on SCN. Otherwise you really should heed these recommendations. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Wed Sep 19 00:43:00 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: "Why is there nothing..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hear hear. For once I find myself in near total agreement with JJ. If someone could find some genuinely excellent - or significantly Seattle-related - content related to the events of September 11, I'm all for posting/linking. If all we are going to do is echo what they could find by going to CNN, what's the point? -------------------- Joe Mabel On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, J. Johnson wrote: > For those of you who want to know "why is there nothing about 9/11 on the > webpage": what do you want? > > Is this tragedy some how diminished simply because we have not parroted > news that everyone in the nation (and most of the known world) already > knows? What special knowledge does SCN have that needs posting? > > Or are we expected to demonstrate our much vaunted independence with > immediate and reflexive displays of mass conformity? Is the freedom to be > independent now contingent on the national mood? > > If you have some suggestions for something that really ought to be on the > home page, by all means suggest them. But I would hope that this tragedy > not be cheapened, nor our freedom and independence tarnished, by facile > displays of mass conformity. Or by yielding to unthinking passion. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Wed Sep 19 00:46:53 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Waiving the First Amendment? Message-ID: Something for you free-speech advocates to look into: Ed Foster at InfoWorld (www.infoworld.com) reports that the user license agreement with Microsoft's 'FrontPage 2002' says: "You may not use the Software in connection with any site that disparages Microsoft, MSN, MSNBC, Expedia, or their products or services...." It ought to be amusing to see which freedoms you have to give up to use Word-XP. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Wed Sep 19 01:02:52 2001 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 01:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: What an asshole! In-Reply-To: <20010917114305.A28480@scn.scn.org> Message-ID: More details, please. ______________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, David Barts wrote: > Did anyone else catch Ari Fleischer's (sp?) press conference this > morning, when he admitted that the Bush administration is going to also > press ahead with its original partisan domestic policy agenda despite > all the blather they've been spouting about "uniting Americans"? > > They have apparently just tipped their hand. They care very little > about national security and a great deal about amassing power at any > and all costs. > > I now fear my government as much as those who recently destroyed the > WTC. > > Congratulations, Jerkwad. Up until now I was ready to give you my > conditional support in this crisis. > > -- > David W. Barts (davidb at scn.org) / http://www.scn.org/~davidb > "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and > demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of > justice and mercy." -- Wendell Berry > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Wed Sep 19 01:08:53 2001 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 01:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: RE: Re: National Day of Mourning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Irene, I think your concern about the "higher authorities." I worry that they will use force and end up killing innocent people in the name of innocent people killed on Sept. 11. However, US pressure has apparently forced a cease fire in Israel and Palestine. ______________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Irene Mogol wrote: > Victor, et al, > I am so terrified that one of our 'higher authorities' will push the PANIC > button (by mistake, just as any one of hits a wrong key & accidently > deletes stuff). I feel we are in for a tough time ahead with much more to > come. My gut feeling right now, is that in this week of Jewish High Holy > Days, there will be trouble either this week, Rosh Hashona tonight and > tomorrow or next week for Yom Kippur. > I don't want revenge - that brings us all down to their level but to wipe > out their leaders, not all the innocent ones. > > Haven't had my afternoon report from my daughter yet, so don't know the > actual latest from WTC. > Irene > > > On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Victor wrote: > > > I hear you are very concerned about what happened Tuesday. Probably for the > > killing of innocent lives as well as the pain inflicted on so many more > > people. And probably concerned about safety, for yourself, loved ones and > > others. > > > > I too am concerned about the above. > > > > I am also very frightened of our government. I am scared that in their > > efforts, they will cause an even greater amount of pain around the world. > > Already I hear government officials talking about revenge, regardless of the > > loss of innocent life. Pres. Bush is talking about a war with no borders, > > with no specified enemy, with no measurable goal. > > > > I fear that some people in this country are NOT taking my needs and the > > needs of people around the world into consideration as they go ahead with > > their strategy. > > > > While it was just before I was born, I am very much aware of the pain caused > > by another person who wanted to make the world a better place using > > violence. He was German. > > > > And I offer the following pledge of allegiance I saw on a t-shirt: > > > > I pledge allegiance to Mankind and to its flag, for which no one should die; > > and to evolving life on this planet, for living things are precious. > > > > I pledge to treat all humanely by caring for and respecting others' bodies; > > by understanding others' minds but being true to myself without disrespect; > > and by accepting the emotions of others as I control my own. > > > > I will have mercy on others with gentle liberty and empathetic justice for > > all. > > > > -- Misericordia > > Copyright: The Mankind First Co. 1987 > > > > Yours, > > > > Thomas > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Randy > > Groves > > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 10:05 AM > > To: scn at scn.org > > Subject: SCN: Re: National Day of Mourning > > > > > > > > I have to admit that there is a part of me that in its anger is ready to > > lash out at the nearest target. There is a part of me that feels that in > > this 'release' there would be some relief to the visceral reactions that I > > am having in trying to wrap my mind around an event that is, in the end, > > not understandable in normal human terms. I think that there are a lot of > > people that feel this way. > > > > I don't know what the solutions are. The people that actually perpetrated > > this monstrosity have already paid. We can do no more to them. The > > others that assisted them need to be brought to justice. How and when > > that happens will unfold - but I hope that we can do it in a way that > > doesn't bring us down to their level. > > > > The level of hate that was reflected in these acts - which most reasoning > > people would consider insane - is mind bending. The strength of the > > feeling and conviction carried these people through months, perhaps > > YEARS of preparation. One note a friend of mine encountered indicated > > that there was precise calculation as to the floors to hit and the > > proper angle of the plane as it hit - in order to topple the buildings, > > not just damage them. If true, it just makes the enormity of the act > > even more chilling. > > > > We cannot and should not stoop to the same levels of hate. That is > > exactly what they want us to do. This was a strike against the fabric of > > our society. They want us to be paralyzed. I just read a good article: > > http://www.msnbc.com/news/628351_asp.htm, of ten things we can do as > > citizens of this country to show that we are NOT paralyzed. > > > > But I look at all of this, and as I try to deal with the thoughts of all > > the lives ended in terror, I realize that we, as Americans, have been > > taking our good fortune in this world a little too much for granted. > > While I don't agree with all of the people that tend to criticize all that > > the US does overseas, there is a part of me in all of this that, while it > > cannot in any way justify these murderers actions, nevertheless can see, > > in a very small way, that our position in the world may be part of the > > seed that flowered so tragically on Tuesday. > > > > There are millions, if not billions of people in this world that are, I > > believe, in unity about the barbarity and the incomprehensible nature of > > this event. > > > > What we do next will tell the tale. > > > > -randy > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > > Thank you, Sharma, for your very reasonable comments. > > > > > > As for er-chan: > > > I feel a little uncomfortable addressing someone I don't know over issues > > about > > > which they are obviously very emotional, but when you write what you did, > > I'm > > > rather offended. > > > > > > Of course I don't 'agree with what those monsters did', nor do > > > I support the Interahamwe in East Africa nor the actions of the Russian > > > government in Chechnya, etc. ad nauseum. Unlike the US government, I can > > > honestly claim never have to collaborated with (or even said a good word > > about) > > > Osama bin Laden (US ally against the Soviets in the Eighties) or Saddam > > Hussein > > > (US ally against Iran in the Eighties). > > > > > > I'm not a pacifist, but tell me, er-chan: exactly whom am I supposed to be > > at > > > war with? At the moment, I happen to be working in London, Englad, so my > > reports > > > from Seattle are sketchy. I do hear that people have been making bomb > > threats > > > against the mosque on Northgate. Is this the war for which you wish to > > enlist > > > me? > > > > > > SCN was not conceived to be a battleground. It was conceived as a place to > > > exchange ideas and information. I would hope that we would stick to a > > standard > > > that the cure for the ills of free speech is more free speech. It is my > > strong > > > expectation that (barring only the need to stay withi the laws of libel or > > > slander), our correct way of dealing with offensive content is to respond > > to it, > > > not to suppress it. > > > > > > That said, I'm sure pro-war propaganda is not short of outlets in the US > > right > > > now. I doubt SCN would be serving its primary purpose if it were to see > > itself > > > primarily in terms of serving the cause of any side in any war. > > > > > > Again, I will ask, as I asked before: is there specific content currently > > on SCN > > > that you are objecting to? If so, spell out what that content is. > > Otherwise, you > > > are coming on like Sen. Joe McCarthy claiming that the laundry list in his > > hand > > > was a list of 57 communists in the State Department. Is there specific > > content > > > you think we should link to that we don't link to? If so, spell out what > > that > > > content is. Or start a web page of your own, linking to the content you > > think is > > > inappropriately omitted from SCN, and ask SCN to link to that. If they > > > try to turn you down, I'll certainly be on your side in that fight. > > > > > > -------------------- > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, sharma wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > er-chan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JJ> I think we need to _add_ links to diverse sites, and > > _especially_ > > > > > JJ> sites we don't agree with. > > > > > > > > > > JJ> > > > > > > > > > > Do you agree with what the monsters did? Would you add a site > > > > > to recruit more suicide bombers? base 3 > > > > > > > > > > Now for the homerun? Why have you and Rod CLark not addressed > > > > > the issues ? Today is National Day of Mourning. Got anything > > > > > on the website that mentions that these innocent people died and > > > > > you are sorry about it? Get with it, in a war there are sides. > > > > > !!!!Which side are you on? If you're not with us you're against > > us.!!!! > > > > > > > > Please do not stoop to such hysterical language in > > > > attempting to have others do what you wish. That > > > > is mob talk and is definitely not needed at this > > > > time of sadness for all those who have died. > > > > Please do not think you are honoring the dead by > > > > such heated words. > > > > > > > > We the living need justice.... > > > > > > > > -sharma > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Wed Sep 19 02:08:54 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: "Why is there nothing..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Joe Mabel wrote: > If someone could find some genuinely excellent - or > significantly Seattle-related - content related to the events > of September 11, I'm all for posting/linking. Joe and JJ, There are local sites about what happened to people's friends and relatives in New York. Please post the URLs of any we should link to. There's a lot less about local ties to people on the other end of all this, on the other side of the world. There are people in Seattle who personally know about places like Afghanistan, because people have come here from there, but little to none of that is on the local Net. On Friday, Sept. 21, the Afghan Council of Washington will hold a public discussion in Seattle. That's on the What's New page. But there's no Web site that I know of. There weren't any local Afghani community sites a year ago and there still aren't. If you can find some local Afghani or Pakistani or other sites that give a perspective on this, please post them as well. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Wed Sep 19 02:44:16 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 02:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: "Why is there nothing..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm all for posting these things, but please don't tell me to post them (or event ot take my time searching them out). I'm at work in London, England. I'm participating in this discussion because I'm involved in SCN. If anyone has appropriate inclusions - and the word appropriate is operative, please have a look at the site before sending me random stuff - for the Peace Heathens' Seattle Crisis Resource Directory (http://www.scn.org/crisis), feel free to pass them to me and I will post them. Posting to the rest of SCN is not my job. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > If someone could find some genuinely excellent - or > > significantly Seattle-related - content related to the events > > of September 11, I'm all for posting/linking. > > Joe and JJ, > > There are local sites about what happened to people's friends > and relatives in New York. Please post the URLs of any we should > link to. > > There's a lot less about local ties to people on the other > end of all this, on the other side of the world. There are > people in Seattle who personally know about places like > Afghanistan, because people have come here from there, but > little to none of that is on the local Net. > > On Friday, Sept. 21, the Afghan Council of Washington will > hold a public discussion in Seattle. That's on the What's New > page. But there's no Web site that I know of. There weren't any > local Afghani community sites a year ago and there still aren't. > If you can find some local Afghani or Pakistani or other sites > that give a perspective on this, please post them as well. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Wed Sep 19 03:27:48 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 03:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: "Why is there nothing..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rod Clark wrote: > Please post the URLs of any we should link to. Joe Mabel wrote: > I'm all for posting these things, but please don't tell me to > post them (or event ot take my time searching them out). Everyone, A little clearer, maybe: Please send us the URLs of any we should link to, by mentioning them here or sending them to the webeditors list. Such links can go on the menus, the What's New page (updated this morning), or possibly on the home page if Patrick wants to update that more frequently because of the current situation. Thanks. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 08:20:14 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: "Why is there nothing..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010919152014.79563.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> That's a great idea. For instance, there is a mosque near Northgate that has all kinds of banners and flowers up supporting American and against the terrorism. If there was someone from this religious group, local, who had something on their website and wanted to post, I think that would be the best idea for SCN. There is nothing like the local impact of something happening far away. When something hits close to home, it has more impact and has more meaning. Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > If someone could find some genuinely excellent - or > > significantly Seattle-related - content related to the events > > of September 11, I'm all for posting/linking. > > Joe and JJ, > > There are local sites about what happened to people's friends > and relatives in New York. Please post the URLs of any we should > link to. > > There's a lot less about local ties to people on the other > end of all this, on the other side of the world. There are > people in Seattle who personally know about places like > Afghanistan, because people have come here from there, but > little to none of that is on the local Net. > > On Friday, Sept. 21, the Afghan Council of Washington will > hold a public discussion in Seattle. That's on the What's New > page. But there's no Web site that I know of. There weren't any > local Afghani community sites a year ago and there still aren't. > If you can find some local Afghani or Pakistani or other sites > that give a perspective on this, please post them as well. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 08:37:24 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Waiving the First Amendment? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010919153724.88100.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> JJ, Thank you for the information, but I really don't need any more reasons for me to keep using a Mac. I can't keep up with Microsoft's anti-competetive nature...that would be a full-time job. Patrick --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > Something for you free-speech advocates to look into: Ed Foster at > InfoWorld (www.infoworld.com) reports that the user license > agreement with > Microsoft's 'FrontPage 2002' says: "You may not use the Software > in > connection with any site that disparages Microsoft, MSN, MSNBC, > Expedia, > or their products or services...." > > It ought to be amusing to see which freedoms you have to give up to > use Word-XP. > > === JJ > ============================================================= > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan at scn.org Wed Sep 19 13:12:52 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: holocaust of 911 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: e>e> e> e> In all the discussion about the lack of recognition of the September 11 e> e> holocaust Rod CLark who signed his name as webmaster, not once let on e> e> that he doesn't edit the main scn page!! e> e> Now there is a Patrick from yahoo.com who e> e> the past few days he begun to sign his name as webmaster. e> e> Most normal people assume the webmaster has control of the webpages. e> e> except in this organization. WHoever is controlling the webpage: e> e> speak up. Why is there nothing about 9/11 on the webpage and e> e> why did you not dare speak up before? e> e> e> e> Hello Joe Mabel (On 09/17/01,1:36am,you wrote Re: response to er-chan) e> e> JM> Rod Clark does not edit the home page, and hasn't for a year. All e> e> JM> I can say is, I'm sure glad you don't edit it.#I would do e> e> a much better job if I had the time# e> e> e> e> e> e> The rest of your ramblings of an old man speaking about McCarthy e> e> don't deserve any comment. e> e> e> e> e> e> e> e> e> e> _,--------, .-. \ o / e> elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| e> `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o e> _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ e> e> e> e> _,--------, .-. \ o / elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Wed Sep 19 14:16:10 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Internet Privacy in the New Era Message-ID: <200109192116.OAA23038@scn.org> Hello, There are some of you who might be interested in this. On Friday, September 21st from 10-11 AM PST I'll be on KUOW radio in Seattle in a show devoted to "Internet Privacy in the New Era." The attack and the aftermath are the motivation and the backdrop for the show. It's a panel discussion (with three guests) and a call-in show. I'm pretty sure that it will be streamed -- http://www.kuow.org. Wish me luck! -- Doug PS. I'll listen to any and all suggestions. Thanks in advance for your thoughts! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Wed Sep 19 15:54:45 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: "Why is there nothing..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is something to post and this is important! The FBI needs Middle Eastern Language Speakers, if you know anyone here or back east contact them and have them call the FBI. If you know anyone back east, have them continue to go down to the HELL and continue cheering on the service workers - police, firefighters, etc. Please continue to keep e-mail down to a minimum as the servers are terribly overloaded and since this is the only way people can communicate with each other, phones are still out and cell phones have minimal or no service. And give money to the American Red Cross Thank you, Irene On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Joe Mabel wrote: > Hear hear. > For once I find myself in near total agreement with JJ. > If someone could find some genuinely excellent - or significantly > Seattle-related - content related to the events of September 11, I'm all for > posting/linking. If all we are going to do is echo what they could find by going > to CNN, what's the point? > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, J. Johnson wrote: > > > For those of you who want to know "why is there nothing about 9/11 on the > > webpage": what do you want? > > > > Is this tragedy some how diminished simply because we have not parroted > > news that everyone in the nation (and most of the known world) already > > knows? What special knowledge does SCN have that needs posting? > > > > Or are we expected to demonstrate our much vaunted independence with > > immediate and reflexive displays of mass conformity? Is the freedom to be > > independent now contingent on the national mood? > > > > If you have some suggestions for something that really ought to be on the > > home page, by all means suggest them. But I would hope that this tragedy > > not be cheapened, nor our freedom and independence tarnished, by facile > > displays of mass conformity. Or by yielding to unthinking passion. > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 21:12:58 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 21:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: Thanks for your input In-Reply-To: <200109200314.UAA09400@scn.org> Message-ID: <20010920041258.98067.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Lee, Thank you for your input. You checked the site from a point-of-view that others have not. I agree that it's not perfect, but Hugh was just throwing ideas out. I'll file this away under my new site folder so that I have your information, and the information from others, compiled. I posted this to other lists so that others can know of the different ways that the site can be checked and critiqued. Patrick --- SCN User wrote: > Patrick, > > I'm not objecting, but here's my review of the studio30 pages: > > I assume that SCN plans to continue to support Lynx. I just looked > at > the Studio30 SCN pages from Lynx, I liked the fact that I didn't > run > into frames, but there are some things that can be cleaned up such > as > adding alt="" to the img tags so that the [inline] would vanish, > and > the HTMLhelp validator would be much happier. The W3 validator > didn't > get very far on it. There's a Lynx emulator at > http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.html > > When viewing the Studio30 SCN pages from IE, I like the alternating > color > bars for the links, but I think it would look better without the > link > underlines. The "find" form doesn't work. I don't mean to offend > anyone, > but I wondered what's the deal with the Marti Gras reveler in the > kinky > leather outfit in the oversized "refresh" symbol? I've seen SCN > logos go > from ASCII art to the god Mercury in the stamp image, but I'm not > sure what > this image is suppose to represent. When I first saw it, I thought > it > implied something about a recycling party, but at least it is > something > different. I can't claim to have anything better to offer. > > Check out http://www.hwg.org from both Lynx and a GUI browser. > Their CSS > taught me a few things. I like how they coded their navigation > buttons. > > Lee > > > > > >Lee, > > > >I don't know about XHTML being implemented. > > > >As far as I know, only the look is going to change, not the HTML. > > > >You can take a look at what we have right here: > > > >http://www.studio30.com/scn > > > >and > > > >http://www.studio30.com/scn/simple > > > >These are just idea done by Hugh Miller. But people seem to like > the > >first page mentioned above. Certainly, there have been zero > >objections. > > > >People will have their chance at input when the sites go up > >officially for review. > > > >Thanks, > >Patrick > > > > -- > 010011000110010101100101 > > ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Access http://www.scn.org "Empowering the Community with Technology" __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Wed Sep 19 23:15:39 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: Thanks for your input In-Reply-To: <20010920041258.98067.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patrick Fisher wrote: > > >http://www.studio30.com/scn > > >... people seem to like the first page mentioned above. > > >Certainly, there have been zero objections. Patrick, Please stop saying that everyone likes the Studio30 material. You already know that a number of people here don't like it, and have said so to you. For example, you might recall my description of Studio30's logo as "fun run elf meets detergent packaging." Lee has just told you in different words than I and others have, but this stuff doesn't represent the consensus that you keep saying it does. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Wed Sep 19 23:56:50 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: Thanks for your input In-Reply-To: <20010920041258.98067.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patrick Fisher wrote: > Seattle Community Access > http://www.scn.org > "Empowering the Community with Technology" Patrick, Please be a bit careful with the name. The "Seattle Community Access Network" is Channel 77 cable access TV. SCN is "Seattle Community Network." People might not realize that there's no connection. There was some discussion about using the word "empowering" in the slogan, as a result of which the word "empowering" was banished for life to the wastes of Siberia. The slogan is "Powering our communities with technology." Below is what I sent you last month about the stamp logo vs. the yuppie-runner logo, when Studio30 included the latter in a set of six logo designs, with one other very similar "runner" design and four simpler geometrical designs. In the list below of things that the stamp logo represents, tell me how many of them your friend's yuppie-runner logo evokes: ----- Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 20:00:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Rod Clark To: patrick cc: Melissa Guest , hugh at studio30.com Subject: Re: Fwd: fun with (SCN) logos > Here are some ideas for logos that Hugh created. Patrick, Thanks for sending me these design sketches. Hugh has a fine site with quite a few nice projects shown on it. It's evident that a lot of work went into the two sample SCN logos. Here are my first impressions. Upper left: Fun Run elf meets detergent packaging. Center left: Marathon runner bathes in Sun God Yellow while carrying torch or caduceus. The rest are there just to display more than one approach. The one design element that has survived four completely different site designs over six years is the stamp logo. To me it represents at least these things: - communications from people to people (the stamp) - free of cost (the stamp's printed denomination) - something about SCN's purposes (the generosity of Mercury stretching out a hand to someone unseen) - Seattle (the clearly recognizable Space Needle) - electronic transmissions (the lightning zaps) - folk humor (the Space Needle uprooted) - a spirit of amateur effort and informality (non-slick design) - a large scale idea with oversize intentions (the giant scale of the figure) - people-centered (the Mercury figure seemingly powering the entire process from something within) [...] Rod Clark ----- Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:45:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Rod Clark To: patrick cc: Melissa Guest , hugh at studio30.com Subject: Re: Fwd: fun with (SCN) logos Patrick, Hugh and Mel, This is another try at saying something about why the stamp logo seems to be so appealing to at least many of the older volunteers. The scene in the logo is funny because Mercury trades in using shoe leather for a relaxing on a convenient perch and using e-mail to deliver his appointed messages. Having first strode over to downtown Pugetopolis and uprooted the Space Needle (we don't actually see the citizens fleeing in terror a la Godzilla, but just think of the scene there), he plays hooky from his ancient role of pounding the dirt roads of the universe, and casually reposes on a handy local hill to use the earthlings' architectural toy as an antenna for his new technology. At the same time, trading winged shoes for e-mail is symbolic of a real change in the world of communications, even for ordinary people. It probably was more so in 1994 than now, when everyone is so used to the Internet. This sort of thing is like what happened 140 years ago this fall, in 1861, when the Pony Express was rendered obsolete by the first transcontinental telegraph line from the East to California, and was shut down. It's funny in the same way as seeing, let's say a cartoon of a Pony Express rider carrying a telegraph pole on his shoulder, with insulators and wires and sparks flying out behind him as he rides. It's absurd but it combines humor and symbolism in a visual pun. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 08:18:14 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: Thanks for your input In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010920151814.16846.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Rod, Thank you for pointing that out. I fixed it right away. Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > Patrick Fisher wrote: > > > Seattle Community Access > > http://www.scn.org > > "Empowering the Community with Technology" > > Patrick, > > Please be a bit careful with the name. The "Seattle Community > Access Network" is Channel 77 cable access TV. SCN is "Seattle > Community Network." People might not realize that there's no > connection. > > There was some discussion about using the word "empowering" > in the slogan, as a result of which the word "empowering" was > banished for life to the wastes of Siberia. The slogan is > "Powering our communities with technology." > > Below is what I sent you last month about the stamp logo vs. > the yuppie-runner logo, when Studio30 included the latter in a > set of six logo designs, with one other very similar "runner" > design and four simpler geometrical designs. > > In the list below of things that the stamp logo represents, > tell me how many of them your friend's yuppie-runner logo > evokes: > > ----- > Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 20:00:41 -0700 (PDT) > From: Rod Clark > To: patrick > cc: Melissa Guest , hugh at studio30.com > Subject: Re: Fwd: fun with (SCN) logos > > > Here are some ideas for logos that Hugh created. > > Patrick, > > Thanks for sending me these design sketches. Hugh has a fine > site with quite a few nice projects shown on it. It's evident > that a lot of work went into the two sample SCN logos. Here are > my first impressions. > > Upper left: > Fun Run elf meets detergent packaging. > > Center left: > Marathon runner bathes in Sun God Yellow while carrying > torch or caduceus. > > The rest are there just to display more than one approach. > > The one design element that has survived four completely > different site designs over six years is the stamp logo. To me > it represents at least these things: > > - communications from people to people (the stamp) > > - free of cost (the stamp's printed denomination) > > - something about SCN's purposes (the generosity of Mercury > stretching out a hand to someone unseen) > > - Seattle (the clearly recognizable Space Needle) > > - electronic transmissions (the lightning zaps) > > - folk humor (the Space Needle uprooted) > > - a spirit of amateur effort and informality (non-slick design) > > - a large scale idea with oversize intentions (the giant scale > of the figure) > > - people-centered (the Mercury figure seemingly powering the > entire process from something within) > > [...] > > Rod Clark > > ----- > Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:45:35 -0700 (PDT) > From: Rod Clark > To: patrick > cc: Melissa Guest , hugh at studio30.com > Subject: Re: Fwd: fun with (SCN) logos > > Patrick, Hugh and Mel, > > This is another try at saying something about why the stamp > logo seems to be so appealing to at least many of the older > volunteers. > > The scene in the logo is funny because Mercury trades in > using shoe leather for a relaxing on a convenient perch and > using e-mail to deliver his appointed messages. Having first > strode over to downtown Pugetopolis and uprooted the Space > Needle (we don't actually see the citizens fleeing in terror a > la Godzilla, but just think of the scene there), he plays hooky > from his ancient role of pounding the dirt roads of the > universe, and casually reposes on a handy local hill to use the > earthlings' architectural toy as an antenna for his new > technology. > > At the same time, trading winged shoes for e-mail is symbolic > of a real change in the world of communications, even for > ordinary people. It probably was more so in 1994 than now, when > everyone is so used to the Internet. This sort of thing is like > what happened 140 years ago this fall, in 1861, when the Pony > Express was rendered obsolete by the first transcontinental > telegraph line from the East to California, and was shut down. > It's funny in the same way as seeing, let's say a cartoon of a > Pony Express rider carrying a telegraph pole on his shoulder, > with insulators and wires and sparks flying out behind him as he > rides. It's absurd but it combines humor and symbolism in a > visual pun. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe webmasters > Messages posted on this list are available on the Web at: > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/webmasters-l/ ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Thu Sep 20 08:20:52 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: Thanks for your input In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll also add, for what it's worth, that I don't like it. I don't get the arrows. Taking a loook at our front page it seems obvious that the main problem is that the featured site and other information (e.g. dial-up is back in service dated August 7) is unappealing. Can we use a better font and make the titles bigger -- and why is everything centered? Thanks though for all the work that everybody is doing -- seriously! -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > Patrick Fisher wrote: > > > >http://www.studio30.com/scn > > > >... people seem to like the first page mentioned above. > > > >Certainly, there have been zero objections. > > Patrick, > > Please stop saying that everyone likes the Studio30 material. > You already know that a number of people here don't like it, and > have said so to you. For example, you might recall my > description of Studio30's logo as "fun run elf meets detergent > packaging." Lee has just told you in different words than I and > others have, but this stuff doesn't represent the consensus that > you keep saying it does. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 08:22:36 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: Thanks for your input In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010920152236.29345.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> I have not heard any objections to the site. The logo is another matter. Yes, you did point some things out about the site, but they were minor issues. In General, and I repeat, In General, I have not heard any gross objections to the page that Hugh created. And if there are minor issues (and there will be and there have been quite a few from you, thank you, they are appreciated), they those can be talked about. But Hugh simply created an idea. He's not going to make everyone happy on the first shot in the dark. Am I pushing for that site design? I don't have a say in the matter. I am simply expressing the GENERAL feedback. Thanks, Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > Patrick Fisher wrote: > > > >http://www.studio30.com/scn > > > >... people seem to like the first page mentioned above. > > > >Certainly, there have been zero objections. > > Patrick, > > Please stop saying that everyone likes the Studio30 material. > You already know that a number of people here don't like it, and > have said so to you. For example, you might recall my > description of Studio30's logo as "fun run elf meets detergent > packaging." Lee has just told you in different words than I and > others have, but this stuff doesn't represent the consensus that > you keep saying it does. > > Rod Clark > ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 08:41:35 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: Thanks for your input In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010920154135.14263.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> I'd like to form a concensus for what would look best. I'm following what is currently in place for the site. Certainly, better fonts, sizes, colors, etc, should be considered and implemented. Do you have a suggestion for a font? Color? Size? Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > I'll also add, for what it's worth, that I don't like it. I > don't get the arrows. > > Taking a loook at our front page it seems obvious that the > main problem is that the featured site and other information > (e.g. dial-up is back in service dated August 7) is unappealing. > Can we use a better font and make the titles bigger -- and > why is everything centered? > > Thanks though for all the work that everybody is doing -- > seriously! > > -- Doug > > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY > * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change > * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 > * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure > * > * is being shaped today. > * > * But by whom and to what ends? > * > > ****************************************************************** > > > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Rod Clark wrote: > > > Patrick Fisher wrote: > > > > >http://www.studio30.com/scn > > > > >... people seem to like the first page mentioned above. > > > > >Certainly, there have been zero objections. > > > > Patrick, > > > > Please stop saying that everyone likes the Studio30 material. > > You already know that a number of people here don't like it, and > > have said so to you. For example, you might recall my > > description of Studio30's logo as "fun run elf meets detergent > > packaging." Lee has just told you in different words than I and > > others have, but this stuff doesn't represent the consensus that > > you keep saying it does. > > > > Rod Clark > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe webmasters > Messages posted on this list are available on the Web at: > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/webmasters-l/ ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Thu Sep 20 08:58:27 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: Thanks for your input In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Doug Schuler wrote: > Taking a loook at our front page it seems obvious that the > main problem is that the featured site and other information > (e.g. dial-up is back in service dated August 7) is unappealing. > Can we use a better font and make the titles bigger -- and > why is everything centered? > > Thanks though for all the work that everybody is doing -- seriously! Doug, The front page is immeasurably better since Patrick took it over and began to be responsive again to what people are concerned about in the community. SCN is a significant media site. To have a front page for 10 months that purposely did not reflect or attempt to show people any of the ferment of ideas that went on in Seattle around the many issues that our Information Providers were involved with during that time, or our former Information Providers, or other local efforts that our volunteers were involved with, was to deny that SCN as a media site had any worth. On the contrary - at any self-respecting media site, the leadership who decided to do away with featuring the site's content would have been asked to find a different site to manage the next day. One of the basic purposes of any medium is to take information that few people know about and make it much more widely known to a larger audience. This is especially true of media that are indended to reach out to the general public. This is what all the big TV stations, the big radio chains and cable chains, the big glossy magazines, the big media Web sites, do all day and every day. Small grassroots orgs that never or almost never make it into the big media are comparatively isolated, lack exposure, and often are overlooked by most people. SCN was supposed to help change that for the better, to let the voices of volunteers who are involved in community efforts be seen and heard more widely and more effectively than they otherwise would be. One of the things that went with last year's redesign was an attempt to get some graphics, especially photos, on the front page to accompany the weekly sites. If you look at some of the early layouts, starting at http://www.scn.org/week/000323.html, you can see the approximate size of the graphics used on the front page then. Maybe if you could contribute a photo of the candlelight procession from St. Mark's, or something of the kind, it could be reduced in size so go on the front page to accompany the link to the site. There's no reason why the front page has to be all text, and every reason to use more media there than just text. A link to a site with sound files of people speaking about this, for example, might be good too, if anyone has any sound files like that. But certainly, please ask Patrick to have a look at some photos if any are available. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Thu Sep 20 10:09:14 2001 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: Thanks for your input In-Reply-To: <20010920152236.29345.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm a lot more interested in consistently getting decent content onto our front page than anything about how it looks. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > I have not heard any objections to the site. The logo is another > matter. > > Yes, you did point some things out about the site, but they were > minor issues. > > In General, and I repeat, In General, I have not heard any gross > objections to the page that Hugh created. And if there are minor > issues (and there will be and there have been quite a few from you, > thank you, they are appreciated), they those can be talked about. > > But Hugh simply created an idea. He's not going to make everyone > happy on the first shot in the dark. > > Am I pushing for that site design? I don't have a say in the matter. > I am simply expressing the GENERAL feedback. > > Thanks, > Patrick > > > > > --- Rod Clark wrote: > > Patrick Fisher wrote: > > > > >http://www.studio30.com/scn > > > > >... people seem to like the first page mentioned above. > > > > >Certainly, there have been zero objections. > > > > Patrick, > > > > Please stop saying that everyone likes the Studio30 material. > > You already know that a number of people here don't like it, and > > have said so to you. For example, you might recall my > > description of Studio30's logo as "fun run elf meets detergent > > packaging." Lee has just told you in different words than I and > > others have, but this stuff doesn't represent the consensus that > > you keep saying it does. > > > > Rod Clark > > > > > ===== > Patrick Fisher > Webmaster at scn.org > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe webmasters > Messages posted on this list are available on the Web at: > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/webmasters-l/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Thu Sep 20 10:31:12 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Statement from CPSR on NYC/DC tragedy Message-ID: <200109201731.KAA02508@scn.org> Here is CPSR's recent statement in relation to the attack on NYC and DC. -- Doug Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility Response to September 11th Events CPSR shares in the worldwide shock and horror in response to the September 11 terrorists attacks. As computer professionals, we are deeply saddened to see the use of technology for such destructive purposes. We hope to see technologists helping, perhaps in minor but important roles, in restoring infrastructure and preventing future attacks. The events of the past week have left Americans from preschoolers to policy-makers confused, scared, and searching for appropriate responses. Although the desire for swift action is understandable, decisions made at this time may affect our world for years to come. As we formulate reactions to these attacks, we should consider the reasoning behind these decisions, and work to avoid simplistic responses. The world we live in is one of advanced communications and computer technology that may seem threatening. It has only been a few days since the hijackings, but the Senate has already passed legislation increasing federal wiretap powers, and new legislation to limit the use of cryptography has been discussed. It's certainly true that cryptography and the Internet could be used as tools for planning of terror. However, these tools serve useful, valid purposes that should be protected. On September 11, we learned the awesome destructive potential that commercial jetliners have when used as weapons, but no serious commentators have suggested banning passenger airplanes. Cryptography and email have been lifelines for oppressed peoples fearing reprisals for open communications. Used correctly, encryption technologies might even be powerful weapons in the fight against terrorism, as concerned individuals in areas occupied by terrorists might provide valuable information via encrypted channels. Increases in the use of Internet surveillance technologies like Carnivore and new limits of encryption are short-term actions that may have the appearance of bold action, but their value is limited and their costs may be real. New legislation allowing the increased use of surveillance in order to track terrorists has been discussed. Protection of civil liberties requires that any such legislation should be narrow in scope and duration. These hijackings also demonstrate the shortcomings of the National Missile Defense proposals. Space-based missile systems could not have prevented hijackers from taking over the planes. Even if an NMD system had been in place, and the planes had been tracked, it's far from clear that they could have been shot down without causing death and destruction comparable to - if not worse than - that which happened during the crashes. This is not to say that there is no role for thoughtful use of technology in trying to prevent future terrorist actions. Improved security scanners, passenger "panic buttons" on airlines, cross-checks between passenger names and FBI "watch lists" are just few of the tools that might be implemented to increase airline security and reduce the latitude for future attacks. Tradeoffs between liberty and security are not appropriate if the liberty lost is real and the security gained is illusory. Political, military, and business leaders should work towards solutions that will provide meaningful security while respecting civil liberties. Susan Evoy * Managing Director http://www.cpsr.org/home.html Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility P.O. Box 717 * Palo Alto * CA * 94302 Phone: (650) 322-3778 * Fax: (650) 322-4748 * Email: evoy at cpsr.org Join/Renew online: https://swww.igc.apc.org/cpsr/sec-membership-form.html > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: cpsr-announce-unsubscribe at cpsr.org > For additional commands, e-mail: cpsr-announce-help at cpsr.org > > CPSR-GLOBAL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cpsr-global > > To join, send an e-mail to cpsr-global-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > To leave the list, email to cpsr-global-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Some back issues and information at http://www.cpsr.org/lists/global/global.html, the > most up-to-date are on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cpsr-global > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 11:07:49 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: Thanks for your input In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010920180749.3579.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Joe, True: Consistency is important. One part of the whole pie. Thanks for mentioning it. Patrick --- Joe Mabel wrote: > I'm a lot more interested in consistently getting decent content > onto our front > page than anything about how it looks. > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > > > I have not heard any objections to the site. The logo is another > > matter. > > > > Yes, you did point some things out about the site, but they were > > minor issues. > > > > In General, and I repeat, In General, I have not heard any gross > > objections to the page that Hugh created. And if there are minor > > issues (and there will be and there have been quite a few from > you, > > thank you, they are appreciated), they those can be talked about. > > > > But Hugh simply created an idea. He's not going to make everyone > > happy on the first shot in the dark. > > > > Am I pushing for that site design? I don't have a say in the > matter. > > I am simply expressing the GENERAL feedback. > > > > Thanks, > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > --- Rod Clark wrote: > > > Patrick Fisher wrote: > > > > > >http://www.studio30.com/scn > > > > > >... people seem to like the first page mentioned above. > > > > > >Certainly, there have been zero objections. > > > > > > Patrick, > > > > > > Please stop saying that everyone likes the Studio30 > material. > > > You already know that a number of people here don't like it, > and > > > have said so to you. For example, you might recall my > > > description of Studio30's logo as "fun run elf meets detergent > > > packaging." Lee has just told you in different words than I and > > > others have, but this stuff doesn't represent the consensus > that > > > you keep saying it does. > > > > > > Rod Clark > > > > > > > > > ===== > > Patrick Fisher > > Webmaster at scn.org > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > > Donate cash, emergency relief information > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe webmasters > > Messages posted on this list are available on the Web at: > > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/webmasters/webmasters-l/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 12:03:34 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: Thanks for your input In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010920190334.31764.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Rod and Doug, The pictures on the site you mentioned make such a huge difference. Maybe most of the credit goes to the pictures of the kids, but it really livens up the site quite a bit. Doug, if you do have a photo from last night and would like it up, please send it to me. It would have a lot more impact than just text describing the 911 site. And help the rest of the homepage. Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > Doug Schuler wrote: > > Taking a loook at our front page it seems obvious that the > > main problem is that the featured site and other information > > (e.g. dial-up is back in service dated August 7) is unappealing. > > Can we use a better font and make the titles bigger -- and > > why is everything centered? > > > > Thanks though for all the work that everybody is doing -- > seriously! > > Doug, > > The front page is immeasurably better since Patrick took it > over and began to be responsive again to what people are > concerned about in the community. > > SCN is a significant media site. To have a front page for 10 > months that purposely did not reflect or attempt to show people > any of the ferment of ideas that went on in Seattle around the > many issues that our Information Providers were involved with > during that time, or our former Information Providers, or other > local efforts that our volunteers were involved with, was to > deny that SCN as a media site had any worth. On the contrary - > at any self-respecting media site, the leadership who decided to > do away with featuring the site's content would have been asked > to find a different site to manage the next day. > > One of the basic purposes of any medium is to take > information that few people know about and make it much more > widely known to a larger audience. This is especially true of > media that are indended to reach out to the general public. This > is what all the big TV stations, the big radio chains and cable > chains, the big glossy magazines, the big media Web sites, do > all day and every day. Small grassroots orgs that never or > almost never make it into the big media are comparatively > isolated, lack exposure, and often are overlooked by most > people. SCN was supposed to help change that for the better, to > let the voices of volunteers who are involved in community > efforts be seen and heard more widely and more effectively than > they otherwise would be. > > One of the things that went with last year's redesign was an > attempt to get some graphics, especially photos, on the front > page to accompany the weekly sites. If you look at some of the > early layouts, starting at http://www.scn.org/week/000323.html, > you can see the approximate size of the graphics used on the > front page then. > > Maybe if you could contribute a photo of the candlelight > procession from St. Mark's, or something of the kind, it could > be reduced in size so go on the front page to accompany the link > to the site. There's no reason why the front page has to be all > text, and every reason to use more media there than just text. A > link to a site with sound files of people speaking about this, > for example, might be good too, if anyone has any sound files > like that. But certainly, please ask Patrick to have a look at > some photos if any are available. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Thu Sep 20 16:03:46 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:03:46 -0700 Subject: SCN: [Fwd: Justice, not Terror] Message-ID: <3BAA75D2.F46B5C73@blarg.net> You can sign this and also send email to your representatives at the site below... -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Justice, not Terror Although our leaders are under tremendous pressure to act in the aftermath of the terrible events of Sept. 11th, it's important to let them know that we support justice, not escalating violence, which would only play into the terrorists' hands. I hope you'll join me in signing an online statement of support for "Justice, not Terror" at: http://www.moveon.org/justice/ Thank you. Your participation could really make a difference -- it's vital that we all speak up now, before it's too late. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Thu Sep 20 21:02:46 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: RE: Re: National Day of Mourning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rich, If I read your message right, it appears that you kind of agree with me. Mr. GWB has just finished speaking a while ago, I thought his speech was well written, well delivered, spoken with sincere passion. But... can he deliver, what will he deliver, when will he deliver, and, most importantly, WHO will he deliver. I have just had my nightly report from the War Zone of Hell in downtown NYC. If you have never been to NYC, you can't imagine what it looks like. Never mind the media, that's been scrubbed so squeaky clean it has no resemblence to what it really looks like. If you have been to NYC, you will see a great mass of rubble in what was a most beautiful spot but you still won't know what it looks like. If you have lived or live there, the picture is very different. For those who know NYC or have a map of Manhattan Island, you can see the area called "Tribeca" - that means 'the triangle below canal street.' Very 'Trendy Tribeca' where many celebrities live, including the late John Kennedy Jr., Robert DeNiro, Harvey Keitel, ad infinitum... Canal street is the dividing line, above, the city is trying to get itself back to a somewhat normal life. Running underneath Canal street is a canal running from the Hudson River on the West to the East river on the East. Hence, the name. Below Canal Street is the War Zone - Uniformed police and national guard check everyone for photo ID. If you are not a resident you are not allowed in the Zone. Any vehicular traffic that has been able to get down that far are turned back. Taxis are stopped at Canal Street and turned back. Buses cannot come into the area either. 3 blocks down is Tribeca is where 'Independence Plaza' housing complex is, housing approx 3500 or so residents of the neighborhood, not to say how many live in the new and old condominiums, converted lofts, town houses, etc. That's where my kids are. (independence plaza) A few blocks south of Canal & Tribeca is the World Trade Center and World Financial Center, except that is now a 7-story pile of smoking rubble. Under the WTC is a commuter rail line, the PATH line - direct to New Jersey where so many of the people who worked there live. Also the subway system of about 5 different lines. Also a shopping plaza, restaurants, bars, banks, etc. All the usual things one would find there. And in the center of that is the Plaza, where people sat outside and ate lunch, shopped farmers market, listened to lunchtime concerts, visitors came to look, ooh and aah, take photos, whatever. There is a skybridge connecting the Trade Center with the Financial Center, and a beautiful 'Crystal Palace', I think it's real name is the 'Winter Garden' which boasts many restaurants, shops, the various events that go in the city, the orchid show in the spring, etc, and the beautiful outdoor plaza and marina (which is now the police boat dock). I thought that the skybridge looked intact until Lori told me it was resting on the 12th story pile of rubble. One block south of the World Fin Ctr is Battery Park City, which houses thousands of residents. Continue on down a few blocks more and you hit the very tip of the island, South Ferry, where one can board an old ferry boat to Staten Island. Or maybe a boat to the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island. And the old Selective Service building where many of our brothers and friends and fathers and uncles and cousins by the dozens went to report for WW2. Turn up at the tip and walk back up to Wall Street and see what's happened there, the Stock Exchange and all the financial ups and downs. Continue east a few more blocks and get to the South Street Seaport, the old Lower East Side, where the immigrants settled back in the late 1800s and the early 1900's. Where so many of our ancestors trudged to after being released from Ellis Island. Where the 'Tenement Museum' is housed. Thank goodness those old immigrants are no longer with us, they don't have to see what happened to their American Dream. Or smell the stink of their poverty ridden lives only to be replaced by the stink of terrorists. The very same stink that they all escaped from. And from Hitler, Mussolini, Hirohito -- some of us are old enough to remember those good guys, right? Many of us were little kids and didn't even know what was going on, but do we ever know now. And now, so do our children... Didn't really mean to blather on but then again, why not. People don't really know what is going on there. I thought I would give you just a brief review. On the more practical side, many techie types are needed, I think you can contact the Red Cross, and see what kind of help some of you might be able to offer. Thank you all for listening, the news is grim and getting grimmer but I know that someday downtown will come back to life. I may be living here at this time, but New York City is my home and life. Good YomTov to you all - I wish you and all your families a very happy and healthy new year, whether you are Jewish or not. Irene ### On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Rich Littleton wrote: > Irene, > > I think your concern about the "higher authorities." I worry that they > will use force and end up killing innocent people in the name of innocent > people killed on Sept. 11. > > However, US pressure has apparently forced a cease fire in Israel and > Palestine. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Irene Mogol wrote: > > > Victor, et al, > > I am so terrified that one of our 'higher authorities' will push the PANIC > > button (by mistake, just as any one of hits a wrong key & accidently > > deletes stuff). I feel we are in for a tough time ahead with much more to > > come. My gut feeling right now, is that in this week of Jewish High Holy > > Days, there will be trouble either this week, Rosh Hashona tonight and > > tomorrow or next week for Yom Kippur. > > I don't want revenge - that brings us all down to their level but to wipe > > out their leaders, not all the innocent ones. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From er-chan at scn.org Fri Sep 21 02:33:38 2001 From: er-chan at scn.org (er-chan) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 02:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: WEB: Re: Thanks for your input In-Reply-To: <20010920152236.29345.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello owner-webeditors at scn.org (On 09/20/01,8:22am,you wrote Re: Re: WEB:... p> I have not heard any objections to the site. The logo is another p> matter. I don't care for it that much..it looks flat. http://www.scn.org/~er-chan/scn.html ( I could have the waving stop after a given amount of time) p> p> Yes, you did point some things out about the site, but they were p> minor issues. p> p> In General, and I repeat, In General, I have not heard any gross p> objections to the page that Hugh created. And if there are minor p> issues (and there will be and there have been quite a few from you, p> thank you, they are appreciated), they those can be talked about. Lee also created a page...can't we mix and match a little from here and there and come out with a group thing? using the best of everyone's. p> p> But Hugh simply created an idea. He's not going to make everyone p> happy on the first shot in the dark. p> p> Am I pushing for that site design? I don't have a say in the matter. p> I am simply expressing the GENERAL feedback. Lee + er-chan(elaine) + Rod + ? = 3 + ? p> p> Thanks, p> Patrick p> p> p> p> p> --- Rod Clark wrote: p> > Patrick Fisher wrote: p> > > > >http://www.studio30.com/scn p> > > > >... people seem to like the first page mentioned above. p> > > > >Certainly, there have been zero objections. p> > p> > Patrick, p> > p> > Please stop saying that everyone likes the Studio30 material. p> > You already know that a number of people here don't like it, and p> > have said so to you. For example, you might recall my p> > description of Studio30's logo as "fun run elf meets detergent p> > packaging." Lee has just told you in different words than I and p> > others have, but this stuff doesn't represent the consensus that p> > you keep saying it does. p> > p> > Rod Clark p> > p> p> p> ===== p> Patrick Fisher p> Webmaster at scn.org p> Seattle Community Network p> http://www.scn.org p> "Powering our communities with technology" p> p> __________________________________________________ p> Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? p> Donate cash, emergency relief information p> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ p> _,--------, .-. \ o / elaineRchan (- at gmx.net \ / ((_)) | _| `----\--\' _-_ | hotmail.com / \ \o _\__\---'---`---.___ /o\ ___.---'---`---.___ ( \ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From davidb at scn.org Fri Sep 21 11:19:18 2001 From: davidb at scn.org (davidb at scn.org) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:19:18 -0700 Subject: SCN: News from the www.indymedia.org:8081 newswire Message-ID: <200109211819.LAA29666@stallman.indymedia.org> --------------------------------------------------------------- Story from the www.indymedia.org:8081 newswire Checkout independent media coverage of politics, protest, and life at: http://www.indymedia.org:8081 This message was sent to you by: David Barts Comments: --------------------------------------------------------------- Article by: Alex Friday 21 Sep 2001 Email: tungtung at pacbell.net Summary:What would I do if I WERE part of COINTELPRO or some kind of illegal domestic CIA thing meant to destroy the activist community? How would I operate? What would I make of the unique opportunity this massive attack on American soil offered me? Reference at indymedia website: http://www.indymedia.org:8081//front.php3?article_id=65840 Article: The other day some guy on the Los Angeles Indymedia site accused me of being part of CIA Psy-Ops. This rant isn\'t really about him, and I don\'t have an axe to grind, but his comment started me thinking about some interesting stuff - which I\'ll get to in a minute. I\'m not sure whether he meant it or not. It may just be that he didn\'t like what I said and was too lazy to create a real critique, but maybe he was actually so frightened and (or at least so upset) by what I wrote that he assumed that I was weilding some kind of powerful governmental juju. But he got me to thinking. What would I do if I WERE part of COINTELPRO or some kind of illegal domestic CIA thing meant to destroy the activist community? How would I operate? What would I make of the unique opportunity this massive attack on American soil offered me? Well, first of all, I\'d read Indymedia. I\'ve got all the time in the world and I\'d really like to know what the radical left is thinking. It\'s much easier to take advantage of an existing trend than it is to create a whole new one. I\'ve got a REALLY GOOD GUESS about how things will evolve because the left is very predictable. We\'ve spent millions of dollars infiltrating you and millions more gaming this stuff out, but I need to make sure. Most of the options open to the left can be worked into our plans somehow. The only thing we really fear is an intelligent, sustained critique on capitalism. Even though the attack had been a surprise to me (Not many people are in THAT loop!!) I\'m not concerned because it was a surprise to the left too. Very few of the people on the left (unlike myself, with my special training) are capable of adapting quickly to a new political reality. I like that about you leftists. Most of your tactics evolved in the sixties and haven\'t changed much. I would know, as a CIA Psy-Ops agent, that we made it a point to destroy all your leaders back in the sixties and early seventies, and that in response you adopted a collective approach to making decisions. This is a fairly good response on your part, but it has a weakness - collectives learn very slowly, usually at something substantially below the learning curve of their dumbest, most stubborn, or least sane member. Collectives are much better at reacting than acting - acting requires generating a new behavior, which is difficult to do by committee. On the other hand, reacting can be accomplished by choosing from any of the already existing responses in which the collective is versed. Also, while a collective structure can be quite stable in social terms, it has trouble with long term planning. Once again the problems and issues of the dumbest member come up here. We know all about you. We\'ve done lots of studies. Am I scaring you yet? Good. I don\'t usually write to scare, but to be honest, the guy who thought I was with the CIA scared me. In fact, he scared me a lot. Not for my sake, but for the sake of the movement. So I\'m scaring back. You see, I\'d gone to the trouble of looking up some court decisions about civil liberties during wartime, and I\'d also studied a law called the Espionage Act of 1917, which is still on the books. (This act was used to destroy the Socialists during World War I.) I\'d also gone to the trouble of finding a speech by William Rehnquist on the issue of civil liberties during wartime, (he\'s suspicious of them - not a big surprise) and I\'d further taken the trouble to write all this up and consider the issue of how the Espionage Act could be used against the left in the present, and suggest some ideas for mitigating the problem. (By the way, you can find that article at http://www.la.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=10451 though it\'s not essential reading for this piece.) Instead of thanking me for the warning, and trying to strategize around these issues, this guy became convinced that I was with the CIA and commented on my piece telling me so. I\'m assuming (despite my nasty remark to this effect) that he\'s not clinically paranoid, and probably represents a fair fraction of my readers at least in general attitude. But let\'s get back to what I would do if I were Psy-Ops. So where were we in this unpleasant little fantasy of mine. Oh yes - I\'m reading Indymedia to see what the trends are, and we\'ve established that the CIA knows all about you. What I read pleases me no end. The vast majority of the leftists posting are convinced that there should be anti-war protests. I like that. We\'ve been planning for this eventuality - a real military crisis juxtaposed with anti-war protest - for years, because this is the leftist response that comes up most frequently both in our field research and in our wargaming. All I have to do is follow a simple plan that was laid down years ago and has been refined constantly since. As a CIA Psy-Ops agent I\'m well versed in psychology, law enforcement, and law - I\'m especially well versed in legal precedent. I pay particular attention to recent Supreme court decisions, and I know that this court loves to screw the little people. I\'ve got all I need to tie the left in knots for years. Using the CIA supercomputer I infiltrate several ISPs and give myself a couple identities at each. I call our support people and arrange for previously created webpages to be revised and updated to fit the current facts, then I upload the files to the accounts I have created and register them with search engines. (We\'ve got software that can register web pages really quickly.) The web pages call for *Peace Now* in several styles ranging from the amateurish to the extremely professional. A couple sites call for violent action - nothing serious, just some property destruction and the occasional suggestion that the writer has thrown a few bottles at the cops. Some of the sites even have mailing lists and data collection software attached - nothing invasive, just places to register with your name and address, or even just your e-mail. At this point you may think I\'m helping you, but I\'m really not. I\'m collecting data and setting you up. Then I start canvassing leftist chat rooms and calling for peace under the identities I\'ve just given myself. I also mention \"my\" webpages and give URLs. Another specialist is making occasional posts to Indymedia - not initiating anything, but being generally supportive of anyone who suggests a peace march or violent action. She\'s got dozens of identities too. A couple days from now we\'ll be posting articles, but meanwhile we\'re getting people used to us and making sure they think we\'re on their side. In the next few days several of us go to meetings or peace marches. We stick to the big ones - we don\'t want to be too intimate with the people we\'re destroying. That makes it much harder. We also drop \"big\" cash contributions into any collection tins. By \"big\" I mean that we drop a bunch of fives and tens - perhaps a couple hundred dollars in all - into the collection tins at each meeting. We don\'t want you buying a nice new computer or anything, but we want to make sure that you have enough money for xerox expenses and net access. So where is all this leading? So far you must be really happy with us. We\'re your friends and neighbors, people who were convinced by the violent images on TV that there had already been too much killing - NOT!! What we\'re doing is simple. We\'re leading you straight into a trap. The trap will be sprung in Washington DC on September 28th. We\'re glad we convinced the IMF and World Bank not to meet that day. It\'s just you and us and shitload of angry cops. We\'ve got only one thing left to do. My boss is gonna take a bunch of John Ashcroft\'s boys and a couple military men to lunch. Officially it\'s one of those interagency task force coordination thingies, but there\'s really only one agenda. My superior is gonna convince John Ashcroft\'s boys that we can\'t dink around with dissidents right now. \"Listen, have you guys thought about invoking the Espionage Act of 1917?\" my boss asks. \"The what?\" This vice admiral has forgotten his history. One of Ashcroft\'s guys reminds him. \"You know, the law that was passed in World War I to keep Socialists from interfering with the War effort. It makes it illegal to interfere with recruiting activities or military loyalty either in person or through the mail. We\'ve been talking about using it on peace marchers but we don\'t know your agenda. Are you guys going to reinstitute the draft?\" \"We might,\" answers a Marine Corp general. \"We\'re still talking strategy, but personally, I think it\'s gonna get rough.\" \"Well, actually, the law doesn\'t really address the draft. It uses the word recruiting.\" says one of the Assistant AGs, \"Now there are some questions; are we officially at war? Is a peace march an attempt to interfere with recruitment, and is e-mail considered mail under the statute?\" \"We win,\" the other AAG says around a bite of pasta, \"5-4.\" Of course, he\'s talking about the Supremes. \"That\'s about right,\" agrees another AAG. \"We\'d like to see it invoked,\" says the Marine. He\'s worked with us before. The vice-admiral nods. He\'d like to see everything be ship-shape. \"Even if we don\'t win,\" he opines, \"we\'ll keep \'em tied up in court for years.\" \"Yeah,\" my boss says. \"Look how many punks the Mumia and Peltier things are keeping off the streets. If we arrest a couple thousand kids and put \'em through the wringer the whole movement will go nuts just trying to keep them out of jail.\" \"I\'ll get our liaison to the DC police working on this,\" says AAG number one, \"We\'ll have them turn any protesters they arrest over to the Hoovers and we\'ll alert the right people in the local offices. It\'s round up time!!\" So there you have it. We pick up all the anti-war protesters and sentence them to the maximum term under the Espionage act. Then we put lots of well financed effort into convincing you that the most important thing you can do is spend money and time to get these folks out of jail. Don\'t worry, the judges know how this game is played. Look for lots of attention grabbing courtroom drama as you fight for civil liberties and freedom and justice and stuff like that. Our statistics people estimate that jailing 2000 of you will result in approximately 62% of your movement jumping ship completely out of fear. Of the remaining 38% some 10% will make getting those 2000 people out of jail their major cause, 8% will find something less controversial to agitate against, and most of the remaining 20% will fall into factional struggle leaving a miniscule minority to engage in that activity which we most fear - a critique of capitalism. Meanwhile, globalization will go on as planned. A new series of treaties, each better for big business and Big America will be passed - most of them unnoticed by your movement. After the wonderful, final treaty that\'s scheduled to turn the entire world into one big multinational is passed, I\'m looking forward to buying a couple of you myself. I think hippie chicks are gorgeous - and you environmentalists - WHOO YAA - that outdoorsy look really gets me hot. If you lefties were only capable of generating new responses to a new situation, you\'d have a chance. You\'re not even contemplating doing any of the things that we\'re really scared about - such as keeping your eye on the ball. As it is, this whole operation for destroying the lot of you will only take a couple weeks and we only expect to work at it part time. Thanks for being such easy targets. Well folks, what do you think? That was an interesting game of pretend... Or was it? Alex * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Fri Sep 21 16:14:11 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: ALTERNATIVES TO VIOLENCE RALLY -- Saturday!!!! Message-ID: <200109212314.QAA16780@scn.org> Please pass this on quickly.... Thanks! WHO? September 11 Peace Coalition WHERE? Westlake Center, downtown Seattle, corner of 4th and Pine WHEN? Saturday, September 22, 2001 WHY? No more civilian deaths To end terrorism and injustice Defend the civil rights of all people Justice, not revenge Endorsed by: Peace Action of Washington, Seattle Colombia Committee, Palestine Information Project, Community Action Network, International Socialist Organization, International Action Center, Voices of Palestine, Seattle International Human Rights Coalition, Citizens for Overt Action, Radical Women, Chaya. 911 Peace Coaltion http://www.scn.org/911peace * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Fri Sep 21 16:31:21 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: STAR Class Message-ID: Hi Everyone, Life does go on. There is a class scheduled for this coming Thursday, Sept 27, 4:30pm at the STAR center. I had to postpone it from last night. Please would someone come on over and help me out - Thanx, Irene * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Sep 21 16:32:41 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: STAR Class In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010921233241.23445.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Irene, I would come, but it's way too early in the evening for me. Patrick --- Irene Mogol wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > Life does go on. > > There is a class scheduled for this coming Thursday, Sept 27, > 4:30pm at > the STAR center. > > I had to postpone it from last night. > > Please would someone come on over and help me out - > > Thanx, > Irene > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Fri Sep 21 16:39:20 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: STAR Class In-Reply-To: <20010921233241.23445.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I just realized something - Thursday is Yom Kippur, ends at Sundown. I think it might be too early for me also. I guess my head is still not screwed on tightly. Guess I better call Randy again. Randy - give me a call please, let's see what we can do. Thanx, Irene On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, patrick wrote: > Irene, > > I would come, but it's way too early in the evening for me. > > Patrick > > --- Irene Mogol wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > > > Life does go on. > > > > There is a class scheduled for this coming Thursday, Sept 27, > > 4:30pm at > > the STAR center. > > > > I had to postpone it from last night. > > > > Please would someone come on over and help me out - > > > > Thanx, > > Irene > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > ===== > Patrick Fisher > Webmaster at scn.org > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Fri Sep 21 17:08:59 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: slight addition Message-ID: <200109220008.RAA28891@scn.org> ---- Oops!! I left off the time... HOpe to see you there! --- Please pass this on quickly.... Thanks! WHO? September 11 Peace Coalition WHERE? Westlake Center, downtown Seattle, corner of 4th and Pine WHEN? Saturday, September 22, 2001, Noon - 3 PM WHY? No more civilian deaths To end terrorism and injustice Defend the civil rights of all people Justice, not revenge Endorsed by: Peace Action of Washington, Seattle Colombia Committee, Palestine Information Project, Community Action Network, International Socialist Organization, International Action Center, Voices of Palestine, Seattle International Human Rights Coalition, Citizens for Overt Action, Radical Women, Chaya. 911 Peace Coaltion http://www.scn.org/911peace * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Sat Sep 22 00:55:29 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 00:55:29 -0700 Subject: SCN: [Fwd: Why Do They Attack Us?] Message-ID: <3BAC43F1.31E63723@blarg.net> The forwarded article is after this brief announcement of a gathering for peace tomorrow... --------------------------------------------------- Please pass this on quickly.... Thanks! WHO? September 11 Peace Coalition WHERE? Westlake Center, downtown Seattle, corner of 4th and Pine WHEN? Saturday, September 22, 2001 Noon to 3PM WHY? No more civilian deaths To end terrorism and injustice Defend the civil rights of all people Justice, not revenge Endorsed by: Peace Action of Washington, Seattle Colombia Committee, Palestine Information Project, Community Action Network, International Socialist Organization, International Action Center, Voices of Palestine, Seattle International Human Rights Coalition, Citizens for Overt Action, Radical Women, Chaya. 911 Peace Coaltion http://www.scn.org/911peace ------------------------------------------------ -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Shocked and Horrified Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 00:08:19 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:04:52 +0100 Shocked and Horrified Larry Mosqueda, Ph.D. The Evergreen State College September 15, 2001 Like all Americans, on Tuesday, 9-11, I was shocked and horrified to watch the WTC Twin Towers attacked by hijacked planes and collapse, resulting in the deaths of perhaps up to 10,000 innocent people. I had not been that shocked and horrified since January 16, 1991, when then President Bush attacked Baghdad, and the rest of Iraq and began killing 200,000 people during that 'war' (slaughter). This includes the infamous 'highway of death' in the last days of the slaughter when U.S. pilots literally shot in the back retreating Iraqi civilians and soldiers. I continue to be horrified by the sanctions on Iraq, which have resulted in the death of over 1,000,000 Iraqis, including over 500,000 children, about whom former Secretary of State Madeline Allbright has stated that their deaths 'are worth the cost'. Over the course of my life I have been shocked and horrified by a variety of U.S. governmental actions, such as the U.S. sponsored coup against democracy in Guatemala in 1954 which resulted in the deaths of over 120,000 Guatemalan peasants by U.S. installed dictatorships over the course of four decades. Last Tuesday's events reminded me of the horror I felt when the U.S. overthrew the governments of the Dominican Republic in 1965 and helped to murder 3,000 people. And it reminded me of the shock I felt in 1973, when the U.S. sponsored a coup in Chile against the democratic government of Salvador Allende and helped to murder another 30,000 people, including U.S. citizens. Last Tuesday's events reminded me of the shock and horror I felt in 1965 when the U.S. sponsored a coup in Indonesia that resulted in the murder of over 800,000 people, and the subsequent slaughter in 1975 of over 250,000 innocent people in East Timor by the Indonesian regime with the direct complicity of President Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissenger. I was reminded of the shock and horror I felt during the U.S. sponsored terrorist contra war (the World Court declared the U.S. government a war criminal in 1984 for the mining of the harbors) against Nicaragua in the 1980s which resulted in the deaths of over 30,000 innocent people (or as the U.S. government used to call them before the term 'collateral damage' was invented--'soft targets'). I was reminded of being horrified by the U. S. war against the people of El Salvador in the 1980s, which resulted in the brutal deaths of over 80,000 people, or 'soft targets'. I was reminded of the shock and horror I felt during the U.S. sponsored terror war against the peoples of southern Africa (especially Angola) that began in the 1970's and continues to this day and has resulted in the deaths and mutilations of over 1,000,000. I was reminded of the shock and horror I felt as the U.S. invaded Panama over the Christmas season of 1989 and killed over 8,000 in an attempt to capture George H. Bush's CIA partner, now turned enemy, Manual Noriega. I was reminded of the horror I felt when I learned about how the Shah of Iran was installed in a U.S. sponsored brutal coup that resulted in the deaths of over 70,000 Iranians from 1952-1979. And the continuing shock as I learned that the Ayatollah Khomani, who overthrew the Shah in 1979, and who was the U.S. public enemy for decade of the 1980s, was also on the CIA payroll, while he was in exile in Paris in the 1970s. I was reminded of the shock and horror that I felt as I learned about how the U.S. has 'manufactured consent' since 1948 for its support of Israel, to the exclusion of virtually any rights for the Palestinians in their native lands resulting in ever worsening day-to-day conditions for the people of Palestine. I was shocked as I learned about the hundreds of towns and villages that were literally wiped off the face of the earth in the early days of Israeli colonization. I was horrified in 1982 as the villagers of Sabra and Shatila were massacred by Israeli allies with direct Israeli complicity and direction. The untold thousands who died on that day match the scene of horror that we saw last Tuesday. But those scenes were not repeated over and over again on the national media to inflame the American public. The events and images of last Tuesday have been appropriately compared to the horrific events and images of Lebanon in the 1980s with resulted in the deaths of tens of thousand of people, with no reference to the fact that the country that inflicted the terror on Lebanon was Israel, with U.S. backing. I still continue to be shocked at how mainstream commentators refer to 'Israeli settlers' in the 'occupied territories' with no sense of irony as they report on who are the aggressors in the region. Of course, the largest and most shocking war crime of the second half of the 20th century was the U.S. assault on Indochina from 1954-1975, especially Vietnam, where over 4,000,000 people were bombed, napalmed, crushed, shot and individually 'hands on' murdered in the 'Phoenix Program' (this is where Oliver North got his start). Many U.S. Vietnam veterans were also victimized by this war and had the best of intentions, but the policy makers themselves knew the criminality of their actions and policies as revealed in their own words in 'The Pentagon Papers,' released by Daniel Ellsberg of the RAND Corporation. In 1974 Ellsberg noted that our Presidents from Truman to Nixon continually lied to the U.S. public about the purpose and conduct of the war. He has stated that, 'It is a tribute to the American people that our leaders perceived that they had to lie to us, it is not a tribute to us that we were so easily misled.' I was continually shocked and horrified as the U.S. attacked and bombed with impunity the nation of Libya in the 1980s, including killing the infant daughter of Khadafi. I was shocked as the U.S. bombed and invaded Grenada in 1983. I was horrified by U.S. military and CIA actions in Somalia, Haiti, Afghanistan, Sudan, Brazil, Argentina, and Yugoslavia. The deaths in these actions ran into the hundreds of thousands. The above list is by no means complete or comprehensive. It is merely a list that is easily accessible and not unknown, especially to the economic and intellectual elites. It has just been conveniently eliminated from the public discourse and public consciousness. And for the most part, the analysis that the U.S. actions have resulted in the deaths of primarily civilians (over 90%) is not unknown to these elites and policy makers. A conservative number for those who have been killed by U.S. terror and military action since World War II is 8,000,000 people. Repeat--8,000,000 people. This does not include the wounded, the imprisoned, the displaced, the refugees, etc. Martin Luther King, Jr. stated in 1967, during the Vietnam War, 'My government is the world's leading purveyor of violence.' Shocking and horrifying. Nothing that I have written is meant to disparage or disrespect those who were victims and those who suffered death or the loss of a loved one during this week's events. It is not meant to 'justify' any action by those who bombed the Twin Towers or the Pentagon. It is meant to put it in a context. If we believe that the actions were those of 'madmen', they are 'madmen' who are able to keep a secret for 2 years or more among over 100 people, as they trained to execute a complex plan. While not the acts of madmen, they are apparently the acts of 'fanatics' who, depending on who they really are, can find real grievances, but whose actions are illegitimate. Osama Bin Laden at this point has been accused by the media and the government of being the mastermind of Tuesday's bombings. Given the government's track record on lying to the America people, that should not be accepted as fact at this time. If indeed Bin Laden is the mastermind of this action, he is responsible for the deaths of perhaps 10,000 people-a shocking and horrible crime. Ed Herman in his book "The Real Terror Network: Terrorism in Fact and Propaganda", does not justify any terrorism but points out that states often engage in 'wholesale' terror, while those whom governments define as 'terrorist' engage is 'retail' terrorism. While qualitatively the results are the same for the individual victims of terrorism, there is a clear quantitative difference. And as Herman and others point out, the seeds, the roots, of much of the 'retail' terror are in fact found in the 'wholesale' terror of states. Again this is not to justify, in any way, the actions of last Tuesday, but to put them in a context and suggest an explanation. Perhaps most shocking and horrific, if indeed Bin Laden is the mastermind of Tuesday's actions; he has clearly had significant training in logistics, armaments, and military training, etc. by competent and expert military personnel. And indeed he has. During the 1980s, he was recruited, trained and funded by the CIA in Afghanistan to fight against the Russians. As long as he visited his terror on Russians and his enemies in Afghanistan, he was 'our man' in that country. The same is true of Saddam Hussein of Iraq, who was a CIA asset in Iraq during the 1980s. Hussein could gas his own people, repress the population, and invade his neighbor (Iran) as long as he did it with U.S. approval. The same was true of Manuel Noriega of Panama, who was a contemporary and CIA partner of George H. Bush in the 1980s. Noriega's main crime for Bush, the father, was not that he dealt drugs (he did, but the U.S. and Bush knew this before 1989), but that Noriega was no longer going to cooperate in the ongoing U.S. terrorist contra war against Nicaragua. This information is not unknown or really controversial among elite policy makers. To repeat, this not to justify any of the actions of last Tuesday, but to put it in its horrifying context. As shocking as the events of last Tuesday were, they are likely to generate even more horrific actions by the U.S. government that will add significantly to the 8,000,000 figure stated above. This response may well be qualitatively and quantitatively worst than the events of Tuesday. The New York Times headline of 9/14/01 states that, 'Bush And Top Aides Proclaim Policy Of Ending States That Back Terror' as if that was a rationale, measured, or even sane option. States that have been identified for possible elimination are 'a number of Asian and African countries, like Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, and even Pakistan.' This is beyond shocking and horrific-it is just as potentially suicidal, homicidal, and more insane than the hijackers themselves. Also, qualitatively, these actions will be even worse than the original bombers if one accepts the mainstream premise that those involved are 'madmen', 'religious fanatics', or a 'terrorist group.' If so, they are acting as either individuals or as a small group. The U.S. actions may continue the homicidal policies of a few thousand elites for the past 50 years, involving both political parties. The retail terror is that of desperate and sometime fanatical small groups and individuals who often have legitimate grievances, but engage in individual criminal and illegitimate activities; the wholesale terror is that of 'rational' educated men where the pain, suffering, and deaths of millions of people are contemplated, planned, and too often, executed, for the purpose of furthering a nebulous concept called the 'national interest'. Space does not allow a full explanation of the elites Orwellian concept of the 'national interest', but it can be summarized as the protection and expansion of hegemony and an imperial empire. The American public is being prepared for war while being fed a continuous stream of shocking and horrific repeated images of Tuesday's events and heartfelt stories from the survivors and the loved ones of those who lost family members. These stories are real and should not be diminished. In fact, those who lost family members can be considered a representative sample of humanity of the 8,000,000 who have been lost previously. If we multiply by 800-1000 times the amount of pain, angst, and anger being currently felt by the American public, we might begin to understand how much of the rest of the world feels as they are continually victimized. Some particularly poignant images are the heart wrenching public stories that we are seeing and hearing of family members with pictures and flyers searching for their loved ones. These images are virtually the same as those of the 'Mothers of the Disappeared' who searched for their (primarily) adult children in places such as Argentina, where over 11,000 were 'disappeared' in 1976-1982, again with U.S. approval. Just as the mothers of Argentina deserved our respect and compassion, so do the relatives of those who are searching for their relatives now. However we should not allow ourselves to be manipulated by the media and U.S. government into turning real grief and anger into a national policy of wholesale terror and genocide against innocent civilians in Asia and Africa. What we are seeing in military terms is called 'softening the target.' The target here is the American public and we are being ideologically and emotionally prepared for the slaughter that may commence soon. None of the previously identified Asian and African countries are democracies, which means that the people of these countries have virtually no impact on developing the policies of their governments, even if we assume that these governments are complicit in Tuesday's actions. When one examines the recent history of these countries, one will find that the American government had direct and indirect influences on creating the conditions for the existence of some of these governments. This is especially true of the Taliban government of Afghanistan itself. The New York Metropolitan Area has about 21,000,000 people or about 8 % of the U.S. population. Almost everyone in America knows someone who has been killed, injured or traumatized by the events of Tuesday. I know that I do. Many people are calling for 'revenge' or 'vengeance' and comments such as 'kill them all' have been circulated on the TV, radio, and email. A few more potentially benign comments have called for 'justice.' This is only potentially benign since that term may be defined by people such as Bush and Colin Powell. Powell is an unrepentant participant in the Vietnam War, the terrorist contra war against Nicaragua, and the Gulf war, at each level becoming more responsible for the planning and execution of the policies. Those affected, all of us, must do everything in our power to prevent a wider war and even greater atrocity, do everything possible to stop the genocide if it starts, and hold those responsible for their potential war crimes during and after the war. If there is a great war in 2001 and it is not catastrophic (a real possibility), the crimes of that war will be revisited upon the U.S. over the next generation. That is not some kind of religious prophecy or threat, it is merely a straightforward political analysis. If indeed it is Bin Laden, the world must not deal only with him as an individual criminal, but eliminate the conditions that create the injustices and war crimes that will inevitably lead to more of these types of attacks in the future. The phrase 'No Justice, No Peace' is more than a slogan used in a march, it is an observable historical fact. It is time to end the horror. In a few short pages it is impossible to delineate all of the events described over the past week or to give a comprehensive accounting of U.S. foreign policy. Below are a few resources for up to date news and some background reading, by Noam Chomsky, the noted analyst. The titles of the books explain their relevance for this topic. For the most current information see http://www.commondreams.org/ For information on how the media distorts the news see http://www.fair.org/ For excellent links on the Middle East see http://al-awda.org/newyork/links.html For background reading by Noam Chomsky see: Necessary Illusions: Thought Control in Democratic Societies, Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media, (with Ed Herman Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel and the Palestinians, Deterring Democracy * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Sat Sep 22 01:46:53 2001 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 01:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: ALTERNATIVES TO VIOLENCE RALLY -- Saturday!!!! In-Reply-To: <200109212314.QAA16780@scn.org> Message-ID: You forgot the time. ______________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > Please pass this on quickly.... Thanks! > > WHO? September 11 Peace Coalition > WHERE? Westlake Center, downtown Seattle, corner of 4th and Pine > WHEN? Saturday, September 22, 2001 > WHY? > No more civilian deaths > To end terrorism and injustice > Defend the civil rights of all people > Justice, not revenge > > > Endorsed by: Peace Action of Washington, Seattle Colombia Committee, > Palestine Information Project, Community Action Network, International > Socialist Organization, International Action Center, Voices of > Palestine, Seattle International Human Rights Coalition, Citizens for > Overt Action, Radical Women, Chaya. > > 911 Peace Coaltion > http://www.scn.org/911peace > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From be718 at scn.org Sat Sep 22 01:47:52 2001 From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 01:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: slight addition In-Reply-To: <200109220008.RAA28891@scn.org> Message-ID: Good show! Good work. ______________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Doug Schuler wrote: > > ---- > Oops!! I left off the time... > > HOpe to see you there! > --- > > Please pass this on quickly.... Thanks! > > WHO? September 11 Peace Coalition > WHERE? Westlake Center, downtown Seattle, corner of 4th and Pine > WHEN? Saturday, September 22, 2001, Noon - 3 PM > WHY? > No more civilian deaths > To end terrorism and injustice > Defend the civil rights of all people > Justice, not revenge > > > Endorsed by: Peace Action of Washington, Seattle Colombia Committee, > Palestine Information Project, Community Action Network, International > Socialist Organization, International Action Center, Voices of > Palestine, Seattle International Human Rights Coalition, Citizens for > Overt Action, Radical Women, Chaya. > > 911 Peace Coaltion > http://www.scn.org/911peace > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Sun Sep 23 23:07:27 2001 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:07:27 -0700 Subject: SCN: An exile from Rhodesia's guerilla wars speaks out Message-ID: <3BAECD9F.7435F699@blarg.net> ================================== ================================== The source of this article is an organization called general at lists.holisticmanagement.org . The date is Saturday, September 15, 2001. Its author is Allan Savory, in exile from Rhodesia. I am posting this to our general conference via Jody as I am not routinely on our listserve due to email overload. I am venting my deep feelings of sorrow and frustration by writing to you who I know care and think deeply. I also write because Holistic Management is more important than ever if peace is to prevail as we all wish. As the events of the 11 September unfolded I found myself so overwhelmed that for an hour or two I simply pulled out of the important planning meeting in which we were engaged. I needed to sit quietly with my thoughts. In my youth, growing up in Rhodesia after World War II, I somehow recognized that guerrilla warfare would be the future form of warfare and I began studying and later fighting for over twenty years in such a war. I mention this past briefly because as this week unfolded, having gone through much of my life in senseless guerrilla warfare, I began to see the past floating before my eyes. What I saw was not the endless showing of the towers being hit and then crumbling, followed by the anguish of family and friends of the dead but something sinister and frightening. I felt an emptiness not because of the tragic loss of life of so many Americans and others, including we think five of my countrymen, but because of the television interviews of leaders and public figures. I could not help but notice that all talked of America's strength and resolve, war and revenge. Not one leader replied in the manner I would have found myself responding in my anger and grief. The President has called it a new form of war and named it the First War of the 21st Century. He has pledged to win it at a time and place of our choosing. Although this pledge is understandable in terms of prevailing emotions, it is about as meaningful in real terms as the many pledges to win the war against drugs. America and the western nations, whose way of life is under attack, will need far deeper understanding for peace and what we all value in our way of life to be safeguarded. This is not a new form of warfare it is one of the oldest forms of warfare that, due to technological advances, is capable of wrecking unbelievable damage. Nothing I write should be construed as not having feelings for the dead and suffering I only risk writing at such a sensitive time because my feelings run deep, and after living so much of my life with violence I want desperately to see an end to such suffering. America will be called upon for international leadership in this hour of need. Is America up to that responsibility and what does that leadership entail? Let me make a few basic points. People waging guerrilla warfare try to undermine their enemy by actions designed to cause a spread of terror, over-reaction, economic damage, etc. Commonly they hit soft (not military) targets that will inflame emotions simply because they do not have the military strength to do otherwise. If skillful they strike in such a manner that their more powerful opponent will fan the flames and spread terror, lack of confidence in the economy, etc., and do the job for them. A mistake made by most governments is to call their opponents "terrorists'. The constant use of the word "terrorist' while televising dramatically the damage and suffering makes their action several million times more damaging. If you want to spread terror use the word terrorist repeatedly, associated with terrifying pictures, and lo and behold you do spread terror. I watched Ian Smith do this repeatedly in Rhodesia's long struggle for independence. Long ago in that struggle I said publicly that if I were a guerrilla I would pray that my opponents would call me a terrorist to further my aims. The Smith government made that mistake and repeatedly attacked me as an army officer and Member of Parliament for using the name guerrillas instead of trying to understand the form of warfare they faced. Smith, his generals and media gurus, through ignorance about guerrilla warfare guaranteed their own political defeat. I am not indulging in hindsight as many times on the public platform I said that Mugabe's greatest allies were Ian Smith and his generals who, while waging a "war against terrorists', were winning political victory for Mugabe and ensuring the end of democracy for years to come. Secondly I see in America floating before my eyes once again something I lived through. Our strength is our greatest weakness. What do I mean by this? In Rhodesia we had an extremely capable and efficient army for bush warfare. We knew it and were intensely proud of our army. We never lost a single encounter or battle no matter what the odds, but that, as I pointed out many times during the conflict, guaranteed we would lose the "war'. I say this simply because these situations are not "wars' requiring military solution, but situations requiring civilian policies that deal with the root cause of people's frustrations and suffering. Because we white Rhodesians were so strong our government, under a political leader rather than a statesman, was unwilling to even contemplate seeking the necessary solution that would preserve the democracy we valued. That, after all, would appear "weak' to the bulk of the electorate who wanted tough-talking generals and politicians. When, as leader of the opposition in Parliament, I said (to Smith) "You are going to have to talk to the guerrilla leaders". I was branded a coward and traitor in public. When I said on one occasion, "If you want to win this 'war' you need to understand your opponents and to understand why someone like me would say 'If I had been born a black Rhodesian, instead of a white Rhodesian, I would be your greatest terrorist'". I lost the support of even my own party and ended up in exile. I use the similarities with Rhodesia because only the scale differs. America's leaders would be wise not to treat this as a "war' but rather as a serious wake up call to look at an extremely broad and comprehensive strategy involving our foreign and domestic policies as well as our education and business systems. Right now there is a need to motivate people to unite. And there is a need, that the President and his advisors are tackling well, to collaborate with other nations and go after the perpetrators determined to bring them to justice. However, this should be done without setting our people up for war and retaliation. There is a need, while unity and determination still hold, to initiate the moves to bring about a civilian strategy to win the peace we all seek. If we rely solely on our military strength in retaliating, far from ending the war "in a place and time of our choosing," we will bring about counter retaliation at some time. This has been the most massive guerrilla attack ever staged, but it will pale into insignificance with future nuclear or biological attacks unless our leaders act with understanding and wisdom as well as determination. There have always been evil people and will continue to be such people. We need of course to share intelligence between nations and root them out. But at the same time we need also to address the causes to which they attach themselves and to dry up their source of recruits. I am sorry that many in this nation are focused only on America and seeing this as an attack on this nation and on democracy. It is not a war in which "they' are trying to conquer America or defeat democracy. Public memory can be short. It was but months ago that thousands of peace-loving people (including prominent Americans) brought the World Trade Organization Conference in Seattle to a halt. Now, this strike at the World Trade Center as the principal target by ruthless people exploiting grievances for their own ends should have conveyed a message to all developed nations - America, Britain, France, Germany, Japan and others. If America is to provide the leadership the world is crying out for, we would be wise to try to understand how and why the Bin Laden's of the world can have such a pool of angry young people to call on who are prepared to give their lives so readily. We need to understand and heed the cries of people displaced by massive dam construction in India or Africa, or the bulk of the Mexican population who deplore the loss of their way of life and all they value most dearly as we pursue policies like NAFTA. We need to understand that we cannot call on people in poor countries to be good capitalists and then go to war against them for supplying our people with drugs they seek at any cost. We need to understand that when we ban chemicals because they are known to be damaging to humans that we should not allow multi-national corporations to increase their manufacture and sale to third world countries so we can profit. We need to understand that we cannot take thousands of years of careful nurturing of genetic material by simple people and patent the genes for the profits of our corporations and shareholders. We need to understand that in many ways it is not democracy that is under attack but rather certain aspects of our lives that others see as causing their poverty and suffering. I know many Americans, including good friends of mine, will immediately say, "but our policies are not harming them. I am afraid if others even perceive our policies as harmful to their culture and way of life that becomes the political reality in such situations. It is essential that we look at our policies in our own enlightened self-interest as they affect our environment and other people as we do with Holistic Management policy formation. I am not a politician. I only went into politics in my country as a junior army officer with a deep knowledge of guerrilla warfare to try to end a senseless war of self-destruction. But over the twenty years that I have been a "political has-been' I have never ceased to try to think of ways nations might end such violence. And I have never ceased to work on the causes underlying most worldwide violence. I don't know who originally said it, but I have long believed that UNTIL ALL PEOPLE FEEL SECURE AND WELL-GOVERNED, NONE ARE . No nation can be an island unto itself in the modern world. In America we may feel secure and well governed but are we? Clearly by this definition we are not. When the towers were first hit and blame started to fly, more than one person raised the question: Are we sure this time that it is not Americans? Looking at our government I do not see representation of many Americans. We don't even have a Parliamentary opposition in the sense I understand--we have a government formed from alternatively one or other of two wings - left and right - of the same corporate party, managed by a mature and often insensitive bureaucracy. As a consequence, millions of Americans are politically emasculated and apathetic, feeling a deep sense of hopelessness. The present catastrophe will unite all Americans as never before and that is good. But the unity will not last. If our leaders cannot see what is happening in our own country, what hope have we of understanding the frustrations of millions who are daily affected by the policies of the US, and our fellow western powers that support corporations with economies and powers greater than whole nations. The focus will be on America as the single super power, but Britain, France, Germany and other countries are as much part of what many millions of people see as the ugly side of capitalism. Focus is on us because we are seen as having a small percentage of the world's population consuming a very high percentage of the world's resources resulting in vast impoverishment for others. It cannot be repeated too often- poor land leads to poverty, disease, social breakdown, abuse of women, increasing violence and genocide and ultimately war. One has only to look holistically at the many resource management policies of America, or the World Bank and other governments and organizations heavily influenced or dominated by American money and university graduates, to see that we are guaranteeing an increasingly violent future for our children and our allies. As I write, the President is sitting with his National Security Council to decide how to respond. They are intelligent people who will advise on all aspects of security within the comprehension of their professions military, economic, political analyst or whatever. Probably the President could not put together a more competent team if we were at war. However if one understands the nature of how wholes function I would wager a bet that the same NSC with its heavy regular military bias will be ill-suited to forming a strategy to win the peace. Building our response on a war analogy is dangerous in the extreme. While the President will politically have to respond with force in some form right now, it would be wise to look beyond starting right now. I believe to win the peace the NSC should be expanded to include men and women who understand the effects on millions of ordinary peace-loving people of such things as our agricultural policies and NAFTA as well as the actions of not only American but also multi-national corporations. Conventional economists have almost no comprehension of the effects of for instance agricultural policies on rural American families let alone families in India, Pakistan, Mexico and Africa. When faced with situations of such enormous magnitude, where it is always easy to be a critic but never as easy if actually having to handle the full responsibility, I have a habit of asking myself "If faced with this responsibility what would I do?' In this instance I would do the following. No one has the answers, least of all me, but these actions would lead us toward finding solutions, I believe: · I would recognize the need for statesmanship rather than gut-level politics. · I would do all in my power, working with our allies, to bring the perpetrators of the current violent actions to face international justice. · I would not call it a war but rather focus on this as a struggle for worldwide peace involving our leadership of all nations. · I would treat it with the utmost urgency, as this horrifying act has been a bigger blow than was the strike at Pearl Harbor. · I would recognize that failure of the developed nations to address worldwide biodiversity loss, desertification and global climate change and social injustices will result in ever more horrifying events involving nuclear and biological weapons. · I would put the situation on a "war footing' in terms of seriousness and allocation of funds and people no price is too high to pay and, as in war, I would go beyond using only establishment bureaucrats and experts. · I would task an expanded NSC with developing a comprehensive civilian and military strategy and monitoring system to address over time the root cause of most worldwide violence. · I would, as my duty to the nation, insist that this expanded NSC have free reign to investigate all aspects of our political, economic, educational, trade and business systems there would be no sacred cows. · To the expanded NSC I would appoint people who have a track record of understanding the underlying problems, social and economic ramifications of destructive agricultural and land management policies, trade policies, and more that lead to poverty, frustration, displacement, disease and violence (there are many such people in America and Europe consistently ignored at present). And I would include people with a sound knowledge of guerrilla warfare as well as conventional warfare. · I would urge all politicians to accept the recommendations of such a strategic group in a non-partisan manner so that implementation could proceed rapidly in the interests of all nations. In short, I believe the surest way to guarantee Americans a future of severely restricted liberties and fear of violence is to treat this as a war that can be won with economic and military might. The war analogy focuses on what the enemy is doing when we need to focus on what we are doing to ourselves. The possibility of even more horrific acts is increased when rogue religious groups such as the Taliban (most Muslims, as well as the Koran, preach peace and harmony), and individuals like Bin Laden, can recruit people willing to commit suicide and align themselves with genuine grievances for their own ends. To let such evil people put up a smoke screen that clouds our vision and draws our attention away from addressing the real grievances of millions of peace-loving people would be the greatest tragedy and play into the hands of future Bin Ladens. This is a battle for peace that can be won by statesmanship that ensures that while containing present violence to the best of our ability we at the same time start to address the things needed to ensure that all people feel secure and well governed. [END] ===== Thought for the Day: "Now that the government has declared War on Terrorism, it appears that we are headed for really big trouble. Why? Because when the government declared War on Poverty we got more poverty, when they declared War on Illiteracy we got more illiteracy, when they declared War on Crime we got more crime, and when they declared War on Drugs we got more drugs. Brace yourself for more terrorism." =========================================== =========================================== * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Mon Sep 24 07:08:45 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 07:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: "Why is there nothing..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Everyone, Of those who have posted messages about everything related to the New York attack here on this list, I think only a few have Web pages with something about that on them, so far. Stan has sent in a URL for his page, and there might be some others. But if anyone (for example, Irene?) would like to publish your thoughts on a Web page on SCN, please say so. I'll have some time tonight to help with that, for people who don't have Web pages at present. In the meantime, if you do have a personal Web page that you want SCN to link to from a page about this, please say so. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Mon Sep 24 04:33:08 2001 From: bn890 at scn.org (bn890 at scn.org) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:33:08 +0000 Subject: SCN: Why is there nothing... Message-ID: <200109241833.LAA11337@scn4.scn.org> Hi Rod and everyone, I think I might like to put something out. I will be home this evening, and could possibly write up something then. Thanx, I really do believe that what has happened and what ishappening downtown NY, should be available to people who don't live there or know the area. Thanx, talk to you later. Irene > Everyone, > > Of those who have posted messages about everything related to > the New York attack here on this list, I think only a few have > Web pages with something about that on them, so far. Stan has > sent in a URL for his page, and there might be some others. But > if anyone (for example, Irene?) would like to publish your > thoughts on a Web page on SCN, please say so. I'll have some > time tonight to help with that, for people who don't have Web > pages at present. In the meantime, if you do have a personal Web > page that you want SCN to link to from a page about this, please > say so. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > .. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Mon Sep 24 18:26:19 2001 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: civic/september11 directory [was Re: SCN: Why is there nothing...] In-Reply-To: <200109241833.LAA11337@scn4.scn.org> Message-ID: Irene and Web people, There's now a directory at /web/civic/september11 It isn't yet linked to any menus, but it's there to upload files and add links to make a menu. If that's the name we want to use for it, it would be at www.scn.org/civic/september11, and it could go on the menus as with the www.scn.org/civic/wto menu. A few initial categories are there - Civil Liberties Event Calendars Media Non-Governmental Organizations Personal Sites US Government War Protests These headings can be improved on, I'm sure. Please contribute links to any appropriate sites. So far, the Peace and Justice Events Calendar is there, as are the sites of two people on this list, David Barts and Stan Protigal, who asked to have their sites added. The directory is writable by people in the "mentors" group, just as the /web/test directory has been for a couple of years or so. If you're in the "mentors" group you can upload files there, and if you're not, you can ask Patrick to be added to that group and have FTP access enabled. The "mentors" group was supposed to be everyone who has made Web pages for SCN, and it's probably pretty out of date but here's the current list of people in it: akin alboss alf1701 allen bb096 bb140 bd217 bk269 bn206 bn207 bp311 bp669 bp760 bq093 cathrin chanh clariun davidb dichter douglas er-chan femme2 ggoodwin gheil gtruzzi guests haskins janos jimh jw4 kurt kv9x lee lizw ljbeedle marcia michaelh scoth sharma shenghui starsrus steveg tmccorma ttrim wendolen xx029 xx030 ----- On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 Irene Mogol (bn890 at scn.org) wrote: > Hi Rod and everyone, > I think I might like to put something out. I will be home > this evening, and could possibly write up something then. > Thanx, I really do believe that what has happened and > what ishappening downtown NY, should be available to > people who don't live there or know the area. > Thanx, talk to you later. > Irene Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Tue Sep 25 13:19:51 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: news.. Message-ID: <200109252019.NAA24495@scn.org> More info on this later... but there will be a rally and march this Saturday. There is also now a listserv for the 911 Peace Coalition in Seattle. Send mail to majordomo at scn.org with no subject. In the body state: subscribe 911peace your-e-mail-address Thanks! -- Doug Media Committee Seattle 911 Peace Coalition http://www.scn.org/911peace * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Tue Sep 25 13:34:24 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: UNDERSTANDING AFGHANISTAN -- tonight Message-ID: <200109252034.NAA28399@scn.org> free free free free free free free free free UNDERSTANDING AFGHANISTAN Afghan-Americans discuss Afghanistan, America, violence and peace a panel and open discussion Tuesday, September 25 7:00 PM University Friends Center 4001 9th NE corner of 9th and NE 40th, near the University District for more information, please call (206) 633-1086 endorsed by the American Friends Service Committee free free free free free free free free free * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Wed Sep 26 00:43:09 2001 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 00:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Warning: bogus "Peace between America..." Message-ID: There is yet another e-mail virus out there. And while it is tempting to let folks who have Microsoft software, and ignore the warnings about e-mail attachments, and let them selves get carried away regarding recent events, to suffer the consequences-- well, one more warning. There are reports of another e-mail virus called "W32/Vote". It has a subject line of "Peace between America and Islam", with an attachment "WTC.exe". Please don't be imprudent because of sympathy, sorrow, or any other reason! Note the following. First: as a general rule, users of Microsoft software should _never_ open an attachment to an e-mail message UNLESS 1) they know the alleged sender, AND 2) the message itself has warrants of authenticity. (E.g., it is in the style of the alleged sender, or you have been advised to expect it.) If there is any doubt, send an e-mail message back and ask! Or login to SCN and extract the attachment on SCN. Or just delete it. Second: MS users are strongly urged to get and use "anti-virus" software. Some recent viruses infect even if you don't open any attachemnts. Third: keep up-to-date on patches from MS, and make your system configuration less permissive. (See www.cert.org for details.) Fourth: don't be gullible or naive. Trust where it is warranted, but not because someone tugs on your good nature. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Wed Sep 26 06:20:58 2001 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 06:20:58 -0700 Subject: SCN: Free ISPs Sought Message-ID: <001f01c1468e$16172340$7152fea9@desktop> I would like to probe the collective knowledge about free ISPs. I am using Netzero (obviously) and it is about to drop to 10 hours/month. So, does anyone have any information about no-cost ISPs available in cyberspace? Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at happygardening.com Wed Sep 26 11:11:59 2001 From: brian at happygardening.com (Brian High) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:11:59 -0700 Subject: SCN: Free wireless Net access for the masses Message-ID: <002e01c146b6$bc126980$ef00a8c0@client5> While this article is about the effort in San Francisco, see the links below for coverage of 'Seattle Wireless' and other projects. Free wireless Net access for the masses By Paul Festa Staff Writer, CNET News.com September 26, 2001, 4:00 a.m. PT Tim Pozar used to speak only rarely to his neighbors in San Francisco's foggy Sunset district, but that changed the day he hung out a wireless antenna and welcomed the world to use his high-speed Internet line. "I've gotten to know the neighbors much better," said the professional network and telecommunications consultant. "Occasionally, they bring me pies and things like that." Pozar, a key member of the Bay Area Wireless Users Group (BAWUG), broke the ice when he joined a growing number of enthusiasts setting up wireless access points that let neighbors and passers-by roam the streets of urban areas and access the Internet wirelessly, at blazing speeds, for free. The perk comes courtesy of community groups that are extending Internet access through the 802.11b wireless networking standard, sometimes known as Wi-Fi. Other sources of the high-bandwidth giveaway, whether they know it or not, are corporations whose Wi-Fi networks are accessible to passers-by. "It's not so much idealistic as altruistic," Pozar said. "We are getting rid of the last-mile cost of connecting to the Internet, but the benefits go beyond that. It's more like a co-op. People pitch in in one form or another to contribute to building the network, and that opens up to a lot of personal sharing." [...] http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-7301549.html?tag=tp_pr Seattle Wireless: http://seattlewireless.net/ From: http://seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/PressCoverage : a.. http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/business/37567_wireless04.shtml b.. http://www.webwereld.nl/nieuws/printout.phtml?id=8435 c.. http://wire.ap.org/APnews/center_package.html?FRONTID=TECHNOLOGY&PACKAGEID=T ECHnetaccess&STORYID=APIS7E75UC8 d.. http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/01/08/24/010824hnfreewireless.xml More links (from http://www.personaltelco.net/index.cgi/PressCoverage ): October 2001 - Discover Magazine "The Future of Wireless", a panel of "wireless visionaries" talk about the future of the Internet and eireless connectivity. The full version isn't available online, just a list of panelists and a some blurbage.. http://www.discover.com/oct_01/gthere.html?article=featwireless.html 04 September 2001 - Wireless Guerrillas Jim Krane writes "Digital activists want to share the Internet's wealth -- er, bandwidth" the main point of this article seems to be fear mongering in the business world that we're "stealing bandwidth" and the ISP's and Telco's aren't gonna like that. http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/business/37567_wireless04.shtml 28 August 2001 - Gannett News Service Greg Wright writes "Bootleggers bring broadband to some neighborhoods" for the Gannett News Service, which has papers all over the country. Covers DanRichardson and the PlayDay. http://www.gannettonline.com/e/trends/11000064.html 16 August 2001 - Newsbytes Dick Kelsey writes "WiFi Spawns Free Net Access", AdamShand gets yet more press time in this article! Way to go! http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/169108.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Wed Sep 26 06:18:10 2001 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 06:18:10 -0700 Subject: SCN: PBS Frontline Chronology of Bin Laden Message-ID: <001601c1468d$b235fc20$7152fea9@desktop> The following url will bring up the PBS Frontline chronology of the life/activities of Bin Laden. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/etc/cron.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rockybay at scn.org Wed Sep 26 13:45:35 2001 From: rockybay at scn.org (Malcolm Taran) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: posting to appropriate lists Message-ID: With establishment of 911peace, as well as local-computer-activists, and others for each of their particular purposes, --> Could we establish each list on scn as limited to its own purpose? My mailbox is getting flooded with multiples of the same messages. --> Anyone else? Thanks The wide interest in seeking alternatives is indeed heartening Malcolm Taran * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 15:40:53 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Free ISPs Sought In-Reply-To: <001f01c1468e$16172340$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: <20010926224053.58547.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> No offense, but it's time to start coughing up the cash. Eskimo.com is only $264 for 2 years. That's 11 dollars a month. That's about 30 cents a day. That is next to free. And it's reliable. And you get 100 megs of disk space, Unix shell. That's a hell of a deal! Patrick --- emailer1 wrote: > I would like to probe the collective knowledge about free ISPs. I > am using Netzero (obviously) and it is about to drop to 10 > hours/month. So, does anyone have any information about no-cost > ISPs available in cyberspace? > > Thanks. > ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 21:26:49 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: scn down? Message-ID: <20010927042649.24091.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> SCN is down? It was fine at about 5 p.m. Patrick. ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Thu Sep 27 10:52:02 2001 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Rally and March For Global Peace and Justice Message-ID: <200109271752.KAA28025@scn.org> < Please distribute quickly... Thanks!!! > Rally and March For Global Peace and Justice Saturday September 29, noon Seattle Central Community College Following the horrible death and devastation of September 11, we have entered a dangerous moment. The world and the community need visible examples of citizens gathering in support of peace, justice and rational responses to the real dangers that confront our society. Join us for a non-sectarian, non-ideological call for peace, justice and unity. Meet at Noon at Seattle Central (Pine & Broadway). March to Waterfront Park for a rally . Sponsored by the September 11 Peace Coalition www.scn.org/911peace info: Peace Action organizer at peaceaction.gen.wa.us 206-527-8050, * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Sep 28 08:07:40 2001 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: post S11 agenda In-Reply-To: <20010918224220.46002.qmail@web20602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010928150740.97397.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Rod, Here is a link on a piece for the 911 incident for the 911 page. Patrick --- Miller Lance wrote: > Here is my synopsis on the post S11 US. > > http://grace.evergreen.edu/~millan06/ > > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * ===== Patrick Fisher Webmaster at scn.org Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Fri Sep 28 11:44:23 2001 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:44:23 -0700 Subject: SCN: Re: Rally and March For Global Peace and Justice References: <200109271752.KAA28025@scn.org> Message-ID: <000c01c1484d$990afb80$7152fea9@desktop> There was a question about whether there would be a permit granted for this Saturday's march, because of the short planning period before the date. Please do another broadcast message to let people know if they will be participating in a non-permitted march, or not. ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Schuler To: ; Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:52 AM Subject: SCN: Rally and March For Global Peace and Justice > > < Please distribute quickly... Thanks!!! > > > Rally and March > > For Global Peace and Justice > > Saturday September 29, noon > > Seattle Central Community College > > > Following the horrible death and devastation of September 11, we have > entered a dangerous moment. The world and the community need visible > examples of citizens gathering in support of peace, justice and rational > responses to the real dangers that confront our society. Join us for a > non-sectarian, non-ideological call for peace, justice and unity. > > Meet at Noon at Seattle Central (Pine & Broadway). > March to Waterfront Park for a rally . > > Sponsored by the September 11 Peace Coalition > www.scn.org/911peace > > info: Peace Action > organizer at peaceaction.gen.wa.us > 206-527-8050, > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > --------------------------------------------------------------- NetZero Platinum Only $9.95 per month! Sign up in September to win one of 30 Hawaiian Vacations for 2! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Fri Sep 28 12:24:06 2001 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: Re: Rally and March For Global Peace and Justice In-Reply-To: <000c01c1484d$990afb80$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: FYI, The march/rally scheduled for Saturday is a PERMITTED march. (There is a city of Seattle official permit -- in addition to the permit implied by the US Constitution....) Hope to see you all there!!!! -- Doug http://www.scn.org/911peace On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, emailer1 wrote: > There was a question about whether there would be a permit granted for this > Saturday's march, because of the short planning period before the date. > > Please do another broadcast message to let people know if they will be > participating in a non-permitted march, or not. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Doug Schuler > To: ; > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:52 AM > Subject: SCN: Rally and March For Global Peace and Justice > > > > > > < Please distribute quickly... Thanks!!! > > > > > Rally and March > > > > For Global Peace and Justice > > > > Saturday September 29, noon > > > > Seattle Central Community College > > > > > > Following the horrible death and devastation of September 11, we have > > entered a dangerous moment. The world and the community need visible > > examples of citizens gathering in support of peace, justice and rational > > responses to the real dangers that confront our society. Join us for a > > non-sectarian, non-ideological call for peace, justice and unity. > > > > Meet at Noon at Seattle Central (Pine & Broadway). > > March to Waterfront Park for a rally . > > > > Sponsored by the September 11 Peace Coalition > > www.scn.org/911peace > > > > info: Peace Action > > organizer at peaceaction.gen.wa.us > > 206-527-8050, > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > NetZero Platinum > Only $9.95 per month! > Sign up in September to win one of 30 Hawaiian Vacations for 2! > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From linux_lance at yahoo.com Sun Sep 30 17:06:30 2001 From: linux_lance at yahoo.com (Miller Lance) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCN: post S11 agenda In-Reply-To: <20010928150740.97397.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011001000631.23907.qmail@web20605.mail.yahoo.com> hello, I'm the guy with the http://grace.evergreen.edu/~millan06/ This has turned out to be my favorite 911 writing, I highly recommend it for your excellent 911peace page: http://www.socialism.com/currents/terrorismrw.html -lance __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * *