From clariun at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  1 00:39:28 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:39:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: [webeditor_discussion] Hey guys
In-Reply-To: <AIEBKKBIGBPHLGFIAPMIKEGHCFAA.design@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <20020401083928.48685.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>

Yes! The achilles heel of Google. Seems people only use Google now. However, it does
have a major flaw: Only linking to sites according to sites linked to that site.

As much, as long, as I have been using the internet, AltaVista and all, Google has
been my searcher of choice, outside of dmoz.org.

P-

--- Jim Loring <design at eskimo.com> wrote:
> Hey guys -
> 
> I think this would be more interesting... and fulfilling!
> 
> From The Guardian (UK Newspaper)
> 
> Gary Stock, a web entrepreneur, has invented a new pastime for bored
> internet users: Googlewhacking. The aim of the game is to find a
> combination of search terms which is so rare it returns only a single
> result on Google, the Search Engine Watch newsletter explains.
> Players win a point for each single result, another if they learn
> something, and a third if they "laugh even more" at the results.
> Current examples include "metronome dewpoint", "plectrum irradiation"
> and "orchestrator bamboozling". But the irony of the enterprise, Mr
> Stock points out, is that "success breeds failure... when you find a
> whack and report it online, that page will soon be crawled by Google
> and the Googlewhack will lose its uniqueness." Since this email will
> shortly be published online, the Informer is happy to confirm Mr
> Stock's prediction. "'Googlewhacking' is a new competitive sport that
> tests both your searching skills and your mastery of language - and
> it's catching on like wildfire!" writes Search Engine Watch
> optimistically.
> 
> * Thanks to Roberta Kedwierski for sending in this story. The Informer
> welcomes unusual news reports from around the world. Email
> suggestions to informer at guardianunlimited.co.uk, and please include
> the source.
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> Buy Stock for $4.
> No Minimums.
> FREE Money 2002.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/6GDALA/VovDAA/ySSFAA/xYTolB/TM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> webeditor_discussion-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  1 00:43:04 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:43:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: principles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0203312354120.27253-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <20020401084304.86966.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>

Joe,

Apologies, our new kitten jumped on my Powerbook as I was typing and sent the
message.

It sounds like Wi-Fi is the way to go here. It may conflict with what SCN is able to
do. I don't know. But that would be slick.

Wi-Fi, first implemented by Apple, is quite the tool of choice in creating wireless
internet access.

Patrick

--- Joe Mabel <jmabel at speakeasy.org> wrote:
> [SNIP]
> >      * We will make the SCN accessible from public places.
> [SNIP]
> 
> How long since the Board, or some other appropriate body, gave any thought to 
> what this now means? Now that access to SCN merely means access to the Internet, 
> what (if anything) are we doing to enhance the availability of access to the 
> Internet in pubic places?
> 
> JM
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jj at scn.org  Mon Apr  1 00:48:48 2002
From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 00:48:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: principles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0203312354120.27253-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020401003139.702C-100000@scn>

I don't think I'd agree with your statement that "access to SCN merely
means access to the Internet".  There was some discussion a ways back
about whether SCN should "be an on-ramp to the Internet".  (That could be
taken several ways, e.g.:  be a non-Internet local BBS, or be a rest-stop
on the Internet but with no local access.)  But I don't think we want to
be "merely" an on-ramp.

=== JJ =============================================================

On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, Joe Mabel wrote:

> [SNIP]
> >      * We will make the SCN accessible from public places.
> [SNIP]
> 
> How long since the Board, or some other appropriate body, gave any thought to 
> what this now means? Now that access to SCN merely means access to the Internet, 
> what (if anything) are we doing to enhance the availability of access to the 
> Internet in pubic places?
> 
> JM
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From be718 at scn.org  Mon Apr  1 01:21:55 2002
From: be718 at scn.org (Rich Littleton)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 01:21:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Hello?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0203260133290.14667-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020401012055.12003A-100000@scn>


Concerning the determination of archive material, start with material that
is over a year old.  (No use or hits in that time.)

RL

______________________________________________________________________


On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Joe Mabel wrote:

> It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you intend 
> to demote to "archive" status.  How do you intend to decide that certain content 
> is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change its URLs: 
> If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist.
> 
> That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such 
> demotion, it may well be a good idea.  But I, for one, would certainly want to 
> know your criteria before I endorsed this.  
> 
> --------------------
> Joe Mabel
> 
> On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote:
> 
> > Hello All -
> > 
> > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about the
> > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material such as
> > web pages?
> > 
> > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make it
> > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find information. It
> > would also be easier to edit the various sections.
> > 
> > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, and
> > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will.
> > 
> > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep SCN
> > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date reference.
> > 
> > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on Wednesday.
> > 
> > Cheers!
> > 
> > Jim Loring
> > webeditors at scn.org
> > 
> > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology"
> > 
> > 
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > 
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From steve at groupworks.org  Mon Apr  1 03:05:46 2002
From: steve at groupworks.org (Steve Guest)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 03:05:46 -0800
Subject: SCN: Re: Re: principles
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0203312354120.27253-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <003c01c1d96d$a2c581c0$5850a0d8@dellxpsr350>

Joe
This is a personal view.

I see no problem with the statement - we do not stop SCN being available
from any place.  I will agree that we do not provide access equipment and we
never have.  Given that every library in Seattle, King County and several
other  service offer SCN up front and almost every community center now as
some public access, the need is limited.  We might wish to teach there, but
we have no need to provide special equipment or services.

If you look at the City's DOIT web site under the SCTA, you should find that
a project they commissioned from the UW showed that we now have even more
public Internet access then every before and this concluded that there was
no need for further funding of public access in the City.  We may not
believe that and are still helping, but it is hard to seek and justify funds
for what a report says in not required.

You singled out one point from the principles.  One of the things I was told
initially when I began to work with SCN was that "the principles" are just
that, they are an ideal and not the policy.  If you read them there are many
more entries in that list which are even more questionable.  For example,
"We will provide access to databases and other services."  In the same way,
this does not mean that we provide the database nor the data, but the
access.

I personally asked to have them revisited, but was told firmly that as a set
of principles they are sacrosanct and are a part of SCN's culture - much
like Mickey Mouse is to Disney.  So for me these principles and ideals from
1992 are part of SCN heritage.

To help answer your question on public access, the Board has for the last
three years been working closely on this with the City of Seattle, which I
hope you agree is an even more appropriate body to address the issue of
public access.  I have been asked several times to sit on the Mayor's
advisory board, but due to the fact that I live in Bellevue - I can't.
Currently SCN has a City supported project which is giving access to the
public, by providing equipment and training in needy areas of the City.  So
the Board is always aware of these issues and does what it can.

Hopefully, when we get access to the public labs again, we can gear up the
training group and get it back into action.  Losing all our main teaching
sites was devastating for the group, but we still teach at a few other sites
around the City.

Finally, I do wonder why you chose the comment, "Now that access to SCN
merely means access to the Internet" as it seems to imply something changed
and for the worse.  It follows that SCN has stopped offering some functions
which in some way, you feel, diminishes the hard work of the volunteers of
the current and evolving services.  Could you explain why or how SCN has
changed in your eyes?

Thanks
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Mabel" <jmabel at speakeasy.org>
To: "Doug Schuler" <douglas at scn.org>
Cc: "patrick fisher" <clariun at yahoo.com>; "scn" <scn at scn.org>;
<scna-board at scn.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 11:58 PM
Subject: BD: Re: principles


> [SNIP]
> >      * We will make the SCN accessible from public places.
> [SNIP]
>
> How long since the Board, or some other appropriate body, gave any thought
to
> what this now means? Now that access to SCN merely means access to the
Internet,
> what (if anything) are we doing to enhance the availability of access to
the
> Internet in pubic places?
>
> JM
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' internal
> communications.  Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have questions
> about this list.
>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jmabel at speakeasy.org  Mon Apr  1 03:12:56 2002
From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 03:12:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: principles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020401003139.702C-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204010310050.3327-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>

You misunderstood me.  I meant that now anyone with access to the Internet has 
access to SCN.  There is no paticular advantage to anyone to get to SCN any 
other way than via the Internet.  So if we give them access to the Internet, owe 
have just given them access to SCN. There is no partiulcar advantage to coming 
at SCN through an SCN dialup.  In fact, there is what I (and Isuspect most 
users) would consider a distinct disadvantage: lack of a visual browser.

--------------------
Joe Mabel

On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, J. Johnson wrote:

> I don't think I'd agree with your statement that "access to SCN merely
> means access to the Internet".  There was some discussion a ways back
> about whether SCN should "be an on-ramp to the Internet".  (That could be
> taken several ways, e.g.:  be a non-Internet local BBS, or be a rest-stop
> on the Internet but with no local access.)  But I don't think we want to
> be "merely" an on-ramp.
> 
> === JJ =============================================================
> 
> On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, Joe Mabel wrote:
> 
> > [SNIP]
> > >      * We will make the SCN accessible from public places.
> > [SNIP]
> > 
> > How long since the Board, or some other appropriate body, gave any thought to 
> > what this now means? Now that access to SCN merely means access to the Internet, 
> > what (if anything) are we doing to enhance the availability of access to the 
> > Internet in pubic places?
> > 
> > JM
> > 
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > 
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From emailer1 at netzero.net  Mon Apr  1 02:12:34 2002
From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 02:12:34 -0800
Subject: Fw: SCN: Re: your mail (fwd)
Message-ID: <009f01c1d977$c9fb26a0$7152fea9@desktop>

I doubt that Patrick really would disagree with Doug.  They both seem to
want SCNA to grow.

I like Doug's emphasis on SOCIAL + TECHNOLOGICAL.

That is the basis of my urging that we explore other Free Nets to see HOW
SCNA can grow.  If those networks have some good ideas, we should find out
about those ideas.

BTW, to simply ASSUME that exploring new options would be useless is a waste
of bandwidth.



> ______________________________________________________________________
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 21:14:00 -0800 (PST)
> From: Doug Schuler <douglas at scn.org>
> To: patrick fisher <clariun at yahoo.com>
> Cc: scn <scn at scn.org>
> Subject: Re: SCN: Re: your mail
>
>
> Thanks for your note Patrick.
>
> To me each statement in the principles suggests quite a number
> of possible things that SCN could do.  I realize that limited
> resources (money, time, personel, etc.) doesn't allow us to
> do everything it could but I don't think that should prevent
> us from thinking creatively about new projects, etc.
>
> I do want to point out something in your note that I think
> I'd quibble with.  YOu say, what "specific technologies
> do you suggest?" To me that's not quite the right question
> because it suggests that SCN addresses problems with
> technology alone.  I hope that we never forget that SCN
> looks towards addressing things in ways that are SOCIAL +
> TECHNOLOGICAL!  That is the only way that we could ever make
> any progess with our principles.
>
> -- Doug
>
>    ******************************************************************
>    *     SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY                                *
>    *          Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change        *
>    *                  http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02        *
>    * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure        *
>    *   is being shaped today.                                       *
>    *                              But by whom and to what ends?     *
>    * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org                                *
>    ******************************************************************
>
>
> On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote:
>
> > Doug,
> >
> > Thank you for the feedback. Those are great principles, however what
> > specific technologies would you suggest for implementing those
> > principles? For instance, on the town halls idea, we will have Discus
> > discussion software up and running soon.
> >
> > And: As for providing access to information, does that mean to
> > continue with text dial-up service, or have PPP access like the
> > freenet in the Tampa Bay area? How about FTP access for all?
> >
> > I love the principles: They are very general, but they point in a
> > great direction. Kind of like our constitution: It is written on
> > principles, but laws are enacted to put those principles into action.
> >
> > Of course, we have a town hall forum with this mailing list. It works
> > great.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Patrick
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Doug Schuler <douglas at scn.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Patrick,
> > >
> > > Here is how I'd answer your question.
> > >
> > > I'd just think that we'd want to keep working on these commitmentss...
> > >
> > > Without in any way denigrating our past and current efforts
> > > I think we could go further (*much* further) than we have so
> > > far.
> > >
> > >
> > >                          Seattle Community Network
> > >
> > >                                  Principles
> > >      _________________________________________________________________
> > >
> > >      The Seattle Community Network (SCN) is a free public-access
> > >      computer network for exchanging and accessing information. Beyond
> > >      that, however, it is a service conceived for community
empowerment.
> > >      Our principles are a series of commitments to help guide the
> > >      ongoing development and management of the system for both the
> > >      organizers and participating individuals and organizations.
> > >
> > >   Commitment to Access
> > >
> > >      Access to the SCN will be free to all
> > >      * We will provide access to all groups of people particularly
those
> > >        without ready access to information technology.
> > >      * We will provide access to people with diverse needs. This may
> > >        include special-purpose interfaces.
> > >      * We will make the SCN accessible from public places.
> > >
> > >   Commitment to Service
> > >
> > >      The SCN will offer reliable and responsive service
> > >      * We will provide information that is timely and useful to the
> > >        community.
> > >      * We will provide access to databases and other services.
> > >
> > >   Commitment to Democracy
> > >
> > >      The SCN will promote participation in government and public
> > >      dialogue
> > >      * The community will be actively involved in the ongoing
development
> > >        of the SCN.
> > >      * We will place high value in freedom of speech and expression
and
> > >        in the free exchange of ideas.
> > >      * We will make every effort to ensure privacy of the system
users.
> > >      * We will support democratic use of electronic technology.
> > >
> > >   Commitment to the World Community
> > >
> > >      In addition to serving the local community, we will become part
of
> > >      the regional, national and international community
> > >      * We will build a system that can serve as a model for other
> > >        communities.
> > >
> > >   Commitment to the Future
> > >
> > >      We will continue to evolve and improve the SCN
> > >      * We will explore the use of innovative applications such as
> > >        electronic town halls for community governance, or electronic
> > >        encyclopedias for enhanced access to information.
> > >      * We will work with information providers and with groups
involved
> > >        in similar projects using other media.
> > >      * We will solicit feedback on the technology as it is used, and
make
> > >        it as accessible and humane as possible.
> > >
> > >
> > >    ******************************************************************
> > >    *     SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY                                *
> > >    *          Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change        *
> > >    *                  http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02        *
> > >    * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure        *
> > >    *   is being shaped today.                                       *
> > >    *                              But by whom and to what ends?     *
> > >    * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org                                *
> > >    ******************************************************************
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote:
> > >
> > > > Funny, no one has clarified, or even mentioned, what specific
mission SCN could
> > > > have. Also, no one has mentioned what SCN lacks, or whatever, to
reason why it
> > > may
> > > > partner elsewhere.
> > > >
> > > > I didn't intend to imply anything for SCN with mentioning other
organizations.
> > > > However, I've been pretty clear about having low-cost or free
internet access
> > > > similar to that offered by "regular" ISPs.
> > > >
> > > > This would mean something similar to the freenet in Tampa Bay,
Floriday. They
> > > have
> > > > something good going.
> > > >
> > > > Patrick
> > > >
> > > > --- "J. Johnson" <jj at scn.org> wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > "Being" SCN doesn't mean staying exactly the way we are now!
> > > > >
> > > > >    For sure.  But would this experiment really be a success if it
required
> > > > > changing our purposes, fundamental values, and every key element
and
> > > > > characteristic--everything but the name plate--beyond all
recognition?
> > > > >
> > > > >   It seems to me that we should not be jumping onto some business
model
> > > > > because it seems to be successful.  Rather, we should inquire into
what it
> > > > > takes to make _our_ model successful.  Other examples can be
illustrative,
> > > > > but each case is different, has different factors, and it can take
a bit
> > > > > of careful study to tease out just what the correct lesson is.
And as
> > > > > successful organizations often have no idea what makes them
successful, it
> > > > > is necessary to also study unsuccessful organizations.
> > > > >
> > > > > === JJ
=============================================================
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * *
* * *
> > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type:
> > > > > unsubscribe scn
> > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web
at: ====
> > > > > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * *
* * *
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > =====
> > > > Webmaster
> > > > Seattle Community Network
> > > > http://www.scn.org
> > > > "Powering our communities with technology"
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
> > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com/
> > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * *
* *
> > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type:
> > > > unsubscribe scn
> > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at:
====
> > > > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * *
* *
> > > >
> > >
> > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * *
*
> > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type:
> > > unsubscribe scn
> > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at:
====
> > > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * *
*
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Webmaster
> > Seattle Community Network
> > http://www.scn.org
> > "Powering our communities with technology"
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
> > http://greetings.yahoo.com/
> >
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
>
>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From douglas at scn.org  Mon Apr  1 06:36:23 2002
From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 06:36:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: Re: principles
In-Reply-To: <003c01c1d96d$a2c581c0$5850a0d8@dellxpsr350>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.4.20.0204010625160.7303-100000@scn.scn.org>


Steve,

It seems to me that we look at the principles through different
eyes.  I'll explain my side and I'd like to hear yours.  It's
hard for me to really believe that we see things so differently
but from your note it does seem that may be true.  In particular
I am one of those people that don't see any need to revisit the
principles with an eye towards changing them.  On the other
hand I see a continuing need to revisit the principles with 
an eye towards seeing where they can lead; what new projects
we might undertake.  Weakening them just because we don't
feel like doing one particular project or because we don't
currently have the resources seems unnecessary to me.

As Patrick and others have pointed out the principles are
just a set of orienting ideas; they aren't a recipe.
In your example of the database, the principles suggest
that we will provide access to databases and other services.
That can mean that we provide the access alone to databases
and services on other systems and/or databases and other
services on our own machine.  I see absolutely no reason
why it's important to say that we will never any of these
services ourselves.  What would be the point of that except
to stunt our own potential? 

The ideals should always be a bit more ideal than those immediately
attainable.  "A man's reach should exceed his grasp..."  This is
a philosophical view I guess but I think it's important for
our vision and growth -- especially in the long term.

-- Doug 

   ******************************************************************
   *     SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY                                *
   *          Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change        *
   *                  http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02        *
   * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure        *
   *   is being shaped today.                                       *
   *                              But by whom and to what ends?     *
   * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org                                *
   ******************************************************************


On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Steve Guest wrote:

> Joe
> This is a personal view.
> 
> I see no problem with the statement - we do not stop SCN being available
> from any place.  I will agree that we do not provide access equipment and we
> never have.  Given that every library in Seattle, King County and several
> other  service offer SCN up front and almost every community center now as
> some public access, the need is limited.  We might wish to teach there, but
> we have no need to provide special equipment or services.
> 
> If you look at the City's DOIT web site under the SCTA, you should find that
> a project they commissioned from the UW showed that we now have even more
> public Internet access then every before and this concluded that there was
> no need for further funding of public access in the City.  We may not
> believe that and are still helping, but it is hard to seek and justify funds
> for what a report says in not required.
> 
> You singled out one point from the principles.  One of the things I was told
> initially when I began to work with SCN was that "the principles" are just
> that, they are an ideal and not the policy.  If you read them there are many
> more entries in that list which are even more questionable.  For example,
> "We will provide access to databases and other services."  In the same way,
> this does not mean that we provide the database nor the data, but the
> access.
> 
> I personally asked to have them revisited, but was told firmly that as a set
> of principles they are sacrosanct and are a part of SCN's culture - much
> like Mickey Mouse is to Disney.  So for me these principles and ideals from
> 1992 are part of SCN heritage.
> 
> To help answer your question on public access, the Board has for the last
> three years been working closely on this with the City of Seattle, which I
> hope you agree is an even more appropriate body to address the issue of
> public access.  I have been asked several times to sit on the Mayor's
> advisory board, but due to the fact that I live in Bellevue - I can't.
> Currently SCN has a City supported project which is giving access to the
> public, by providing equipment and training in needy areas of the City.  So
> the Board is always aware of these issues and does what it can.
> 
> Hopefully, when we get access to the public labs again, we can gear up the
> training group and get it back into action.  Losing all our main teaching
> sites was devastating for the group, but we still teach at a few other sites
> around the City.
> 
> Finally, I do wonder why you chose the comment, "Now that access to SCN
> merely means access to the Internet" as it seems to imply something changed
> and for the worse.  It follows that SCN has stopped offering some functions
> which in some way, you feel, diminishes the hard work of the volunteers of
> the current and evolving services.  Could you explain why or how SCN has
> changed in your eyes?
> 
> Thanks
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Mabel" <jmabel at speakeasy.org>
> To: "Doug Schuler" <douglas at scn.org>
> Cc: "patrick fisher" <clariun at yahoo.com>; "scn" <scn at scn.org>;
> <scna-board at scn.org>
> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 11:58 PM
> Subject: BD: Re: principles
> 
> 
> > [SNIP]
> > >      * We will make the SCN accessible from public places.
> > [SNIP]
> >
> > How long since the Board, or some other appropriate body, gave any thought
> to
> > what this now means? Now that access to SCN merely means access to the
> Internet,
> > what (if anything) are we doing to enhance the availability of access to
> the
> > Internet in pubic places?
> >
> > JM
> >
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' internal
> > communications.  Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have questions
> > about this list.
> >
> 
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From steve at advocate.net  Mon Apr  1 08:29:11 2002
From: steve at advocate.net (Steve)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:29:11 -0800
Subject: SCN: Open source
Message-ID: <3CA81A57.17068.14F227@localhost>

x-no-archive: yes

======================

Q&A with Eric Raymond, co-founder of the Open Source Initiative

by Matthew Broersma, ZDNet

Q: Red Hat's Bob Young argues that Linux will never take over the 
desktop, but that it will make the desktop largely irrelevant by controlling 
the Internet back-end. What are your views on the desktop debate?  

A: I think Linux will take over the desktop, and I think the reason it will 
doesn't have much to do with whether we clean up and polish our 
interfaces or not. Linux will take over the desktop because as the price of 
desktop machines drops, the Microsoft tax represents a larger and larger 
piece of OEM margin. There's going to come a point at which that's not 
sustainable, and at which OEMs have to bail out of the Microsoft camp in 
order to continue making any money at all. 

At that point, Linux wins even if the UI sucks. And frankly, the UI doesn't 
suck. It's not perfect, it's got a few sharp edges and a few spikes on it, but 
so does Windows.  

We broke through the $1,000 floor some years back. But my threshold 
figure for when Microsoft isn't viable anymore is when the average 
desktop configuration drops below $350. I got that figure by looking at the 
position of Microsoft in the market for PDAs and handhelds. Above $350, 
Windows CE has some presence, largely because Microsoft is heavily 
subsidizing it, but below $350, Microsoft is nowhere. And the reason is 
very clear: if your unit price is that low, you can't pay the Microsoft tax and 
make any money.  

We're heading toward the point where consumer desktops are available at 
that price. Some of the low-end PC integrators are already there, outfits 
like E-machines and so forth.  

Q: Microsoft has tried to co-opt interest in open source with its "shared 
source" initiative. Is that going to work?  

A: I don't see any signs that that's changing anybody's minds. I don't see 
anybody in the press saying "That's wonderful! In fact it's so wonderful it 
will swallow XP's license restrictions, it will swallow .Net and Passport." It 
isn't happening.  

Q: Is it just a PR move?  

A: It goes deeper than that. Everything in Microsoft's strategic behavior for 
the last two years, as far as I'm concerned, can only be accounted for by 
the hypothesis that they know their packaged software business is 
doomed.  

They're moving from a product base where selling Windows CDs is their 
major revenue stream, to where they're telling everybody where they want 
to be is in a business where they're the world's biggest ASP. Now, people 
haven't really thought about this, but being an ASP is harder than being in 
a product business. It's more difficult: the staff requirements are more 
demanding, the margins are lower. Why would Microsoft go from being in 
an easy business to being in a hard business? I think the right answer is 
that they know the easy business is doomed. Bill Gates said as much in 
his famous 1995 e-mail saying the Internet was the future.  

They have a strategic problem, which is that somehow they have to make 
the transition to a Passport and .Net business model before Wall Street 
figures out that their current business model is screwed. If the investors 
figure that out before they've changed horses, then they're going to 
discount the future value of the stock, and the whole financial pyramid that 
Microsoft is built on will just collapse.  

I wouldn't be sleeping too well if I was a Microsoft strategist right now, 
because that's a really hard job, especially considering that they don't 
even have the technology in place for the new business model yet. Even if 
they had the technology in place, they would have a very hard job 
persuading corporate managers to buy into this, simply because of the 
control issue. 

If I have all my business processes farmed out to an ASP, I don't control 
them any more. It's not just a matter of being dependent on somebody 
else's downtime as well as my own. How do I know that my core business 
secrets are still protected?  

Q: Speaking of security, the Internet Engineering Taskforce (IETF) 
recently released a draft protocol for reporting security flaws in software, 
which was criticized by some people as being too slanted in favor of the 
software industry.  

That was very good, that was very well done. I skimmed it and I didn't feel 
that way. I remember reading it and thinking that they had chosen the time-
outs for reporting requirements just about right. They chose just about the 
same time-outs I would.  

Q: Is there a danger of software companies exercising too much control 
over how and when software bugs are reported?  

A: There's the obvious threat from the DMCA, if that kind of control is 
written into the license, but under current software licenses they can't 
control that kind of disclosure. And in fact if they tried, they'd probably run 
into serious legal problems. So I don't see that as a major issue.  

I'm not worried about that for two reasons. One is that there are very 
articulate and capable people who have press exposure and credibility in 
the security community, who are prepared to go out there and say, "full 
disclosure is the only way you can get decent security."  I'm thinking for 
example of Bruce Schneier at Counterpane (Internet Security). He's done 
an excellent job of educating the trade press on this, and there are other 
people who are almost as capable as he is in that way. So I think they'll 
keep that issue alive.  

Also, one of the reasons I'm happy about that RFC (request for comment) 
you just mentioned is because anyone who comes under corporate 
pressure not to report bugs, can point at that RFC and say, hey, this is 
Internet best practice here, so get off my back. 

Q: Would the IETF proposal make any difference?  

A: In that political sense, yes. I don't think that draft RFC does anything 
more than just slightly formalize the unwritten guidelines that already exist, 
as witnessed by the fact that they chose the same time-outs that I would 
have. Managers have a superstitious respect for documentation and 
procedures, so being able to point at a document does help.  

Q: How is the open-source movement different today than, say, 1999?  

A: I think we're more sober now than we used to be. There was a period 
during the dot-com boom in '99 when I think a lot of people were in some 
danger of getting distracted by the prospect of lots of easy money. And of 
course that prospect has gone away now, which is all right if that has the 
effect of re-concentrating us on the work.  

I think also we have a lot more credibility in the global 1,000 and the 
business press than we had in '99. We've gotten more success stories 
under our belt. We've got more people who've considered the pro-open-
source argument carefully and decided they agree with it. As witnessed by 
what happened last year when there was some danger that Microsoft was 
going to go into a full-bore propaganda campaign against us.  

If they had done that in mid 1998, just after the Mozilla disclosure, they 
might have buried us. I was worried about that. I was seriously worried that 
that was a possibility, that they would turn on the hype machine before we 
had enough success stories and enough corporate backing to be able to 
counter that. 

What happened in early 2001 demonstrated that we had already achieved 
enough mainstream credibility and recruited enough backers inside the 
establishment, as it were, that when Microsoft tried it it just bounced. And 
that's a significant difference from '99.  

Q: Mainstream credibility is important to you and the OSI, isn't it?  

A: The thing that I've always kept in mind, and the reason I founded the 
OSI in the first place is this: if you want to change the world, you have to 
co-opt the people who write the checks.  

Maybe it sounds pretentious to say this, but most of the people who do 
this mostly care about art, not about money. If that weren't the case they'd 
be off doing something else. Mind you, I'm not saying that it's necessarily 
better to care about art than about money, I'm just making an observation 
about the motivations of the people who do this.  

Q: What's the future for the "bazaar" open-source model?  

A: I see that continuing to succeed, in a way that's separate from the 
debate about business models. The reason I'm very sure that will be the 
case is because of the scaling problems that software development is 
having as machines grow more capable and software grows more 
complex.  

The fundamental problem here is that machines roughly double in 
capability every eighteen months, and as you know, the size of the 
average software project in lines of code tends to be double that. That's a 
real problem, because bugs generally arise from unanticipated interactions 
between different pieces of code in a project. And that means that the 
number of bugs in the project tends to rise with the square of the number 
of lines of code. That means that as projects get larger, and their bug 
density increases, the verification problem gets worse, and it doesn't get 
worse linearly, it gets worse quadratically.  

The reason I'm confident that the bazaar model, the open-source model, 
will continue to thrive and claim new territory, is because all of the other 
verification models have run out of steam. It's not that open sourcing is 
perfect, it's not that the many-eyeballs effect is in some theoretical sense 
necessarily the best possible way to do things, the problem is that we 
don't know anything that works as well. And the scale of problems with 
other methods of QA (quality assurance) is actually increasing in severity 
as the size of projects goes up. 

On the other hand, open-source development, open-source verification, 
the many-eyeballs effect, seems to scale pretty well. And in fact it works 
better as your development community gets larger.  

Q: If you want to go to a really fundamental analysis, what we're 
perpetually rediscovering on a scale of complexity is that centralization 
doesn't work. Centralization doesn't scale, and when you push any human 
endeavor to a certain threshold of complexity you rediscover that.  

A: That recalls the argument of a few weeks ago about whether Linus 
Torvalds should get an assistant. That's another illustration of the 
problem. Centralization doesn't scale even when the center is Linus.  


Copyright 2002 CNET Networks Inc.





* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  1 09:29:53 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:29:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: Re: principles
In-Reply-To: <003c01c1d96d$a2c581c0$5850a0d8@dellxpsr350>
Message-ID: <20020401172953.30133.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com>

Let us get 20 more web editors who are as good as the ones we have now and let us
see where that takes SCN.

Anyone for agressive recruiting tactics?

Patrick


--- Steve Guest <steve at groupworks.org> wrote:
> Joe
> This is a personal view.
> 
> I see no problem with the statement - we do not stop SCN being available
> from any place.  I will agree that we do not provide access equipment and we
> never have.  Given that every library in Seattle, King County and several
> other  service offer SCN up front and almost every community center now as
> some public access, the need is limited.  We might wish to teach there, but
> we have no need to provide special equipment or services.
> 
> If you look at the City's DOIT web site under the SCTA, you should find that
> a project they commissioned from the UW showed that we now have even more
> public Internet access then every before and this concluded that there was
> no need for further funding of public access in the City.  We may not
> believe that and are still helping, but it is hard to seek and justify funds
> for what a report says in not required.
> 
> You singled out one point from the principles.  One of the things I was told
> initially when I began to work with SCN was that "the principles" are just
> that, they are an ideal and not the policy.  If you read them there are many
> more entries in that list which are even more questionable.  For example,
> "We will provide access to databases and other services."  In the same way,
> this does not mean that we provide the database nor the data, but the
> access.
> 
> I personally asked to have them revisited, but was told firmly that as a set
> of principles they are sacrosanct and are a part of SCN's culture - much
> like Mickey Mouse is to Disney.  So for me these principles and ideals from
> 1992 are part of SCN heritage.
> 
> To help answer your question on public access, the Board has for the last
> three years been working closely on this with the City of Seattle, which I
> hope you agree is an even more appropriate body to address the issue of
> public access.  I have been asked several times to sit on the Mayor's
> advisory board, but due to the fact that I live in Bellevue - I can't.
> Currently SCN has a City supported project which is giving access to the
> public, by providing equipment and training in needy areas of the City.  So
> the Board is always aware of these issues and does what it can.
> 
> Hopefully, when we get access to the public labs again, we can gear up the
> training group and get it back into action.  Losing all our main teaching
> sites was devastating for the group, but we still teach at a few other sites
> around the City.
> 
> Finally, I do wonder why you chose the comment, "Now that access to SCN
> merely means access to the Internet" as it seems to imply something changed
> and for the worse.  It follows that SCN has stopped offering some functions
> which in some way, you feel, diminishes the hard work of the volunteers of
> the current and evolving services.  Could you explain why or how SCN has
> changed in your eyes?
> 
> Thanks
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Mabel" <jmabel at speakeasy.org>
> To: "Doug Schuler" <douglas at scn.org>
> Cc: "patrick fisher" <clariun at yahoo.com>; "scn" <scn at scn.org>;
> <scna-board at scn.org>
> Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 11:58 PM
> Subject: BD: Re: principles
> 
> 
> > [SNIP]
> > >      * We will make the SCN accessible from public places.
> > [SNIP]
> >
> > How long since the Board, or some other appropriate body, gave any thought
> to
> > what this now means? Now that access to SCN merely means access to the
> Internet,
> > what (if anything) are we doing to enhance the availability of access to
> the
> > Internet in pubic places?
> >
> > JM
> >
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' internal
> > communications.  Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have questions
> > about this list.
> >
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From steve at groupworks.org  Mon Apr  1 13:09:07 2002
From: steve at groupworks.org (Steve Guest)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:09:07 -0800
Subject: SCN: Re: Re: principles
References: <Pine.SUN.4.20.0204010625160.7303-100000@scn.scn.org>
Message-ID: <002e01c1d9c1$770c60e0$da4fa0d8@dellxpsr350>

Doug
Still a personal view

Actually reading your email makes me believe we are exactly the same page
here.  When I wanted to change them my aim was to broaden them and not
weaken them.  So, I believe that I see them exactly as you seem to.

My concern was that people would read them not as ideals but as promissory
commitments.  I have been getting several users asking why we were not
fulfilling ALL the principles and by not doing so, SCN was failing.

One of my aims is to try for a stable long term vision and to get the focus
off the day-to-day management.
Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Schuler" <douglas at scn.org>
To: "Steve Guest" <steve at groupworks.org>
Cc: <scna-board at scn.org>; "patrick fisher" <clariun at yahoo.com>; "scn"
<scn at scn.org>
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 6:36 AM
Subject: Re: Re: principles


>
> Steve,
>
> It seems to me that we look at the principles through different
> eyes.  I'll explain my side and I'd like to hear yours.  It's
> hard for me to really believe that we see things so differently
> but from your note it does seem that may be true.  In particular
> I am one of those people that don't see any need to revisit the
> principles with an eye towards changing them.  On the other
> hand I see a continuing need to revisit the principles with
> an eye towards seeing where they can lead; what new projects
> we might undertake.  Weakening them just because we don't
> feel like doing one particular project or because we don't
> currently have the resources seems unnecessary to me.
>
> As Patrick and others have pointed out the principles are
> just a set of orienting ideas; they aren't a recipe.
> In your example of the database, the principles suggest
> that we will provide access to databases and other services.
> That can mean that we provide the access alone to databases
> and services on other systems and/or databases and other
> services on our own machine.  I see absolutely no reason
> why it's important to say that we will never any of these
> services ourselves.  What would be the point of that except
> to stunt our own potential?
>
> The ideals should always be a bit more ideal than those immediately
> attainable.  "A man's reach should exceed his grasp..."  This is
> a philosophical view I guess but I think it's important for
> our vision and growth -- especially in the long term.
>
> -- Doug
>
>    ******************************************************************
>    *     SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY                                *
>    *          Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change        *
>    *                  http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02        *
>    * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure        *
>    *   is being shaped today.                                       *
>    *                              But by whom and to what ends?     *
>    * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org                                *
>    ******************************************************************
>
>
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Steve Guest wrote:
>
> > Joe
> > This is a personal view.
> >
> > I see no problem with the statement - we do not stop SCN being available
> > from any place.  I will agree that we do not provide access equipment
and we
> > never have.  Given that every library in Seattle, King County and
several
> > other  service offer SCN up front and almost every community center now
as
> > some public access, the need is limited.  We might wish to teach there,
but
> > we have no need to provide special equipment or services.
> >
> > If you look at the City's DOIT web site under the SCTA, you should find
that
> > a project they commissioned from the UW showed that we now have even
more
> > public Internet access then every before and this concluded that there
was
> > no need for further funding of public access in the City.  We may not
> > believe that and are still helping, but it is hard to seek and justify
funds
> > for what a report says in not required.
> >
> > You singled out one point from the principles.  One of the things I was
told
> > initially when I began to work with SCN was that "the principles" are
just
> > that, they are an ideal and not the policy.  If you read them there are
many
> > more entries in that list which are even more questionable.  For
example,
> > "We will provide access to databases and other services."  In the same
way,
> > this does not mean that we provide the database nor the data, but the
> > access.
> >
> > I personally asked to have them revisited, but was told firmly that as a
set
> > of principles they are sacrosanct and are a part of SCN's culture - much
> > like Mickey Mouse is to Disney.  So for me these principles and ideals
from
> > 1992 are part of SCN heritage.
> >
> > To help answer your question on public access, the Board has for the
last
> > three years been working closely on this with the City of Seattle, which
I
> > hope you agree is an even more appropriate body to address the issue of
> > public access.  I have been asked several times to sit on the Mayor's
> > advisory board, but due to the fact that I live in Bellevue - I can't.
> > Currently SCN has a City supported project which is giving access to the
> > public, by providing equipment and training in needy areas of the City.
So
> > the Board is always aware of these issues and does what it can.
> >
> > Hopefully, when we get access to the public labs again, we can gear up
the
> > training group and get it back into action.  Losing all our main
teaching
> > sites was devastating for the group, but we still teach at a few other
sites
> > around the City.
> >
> > Finally, I do wonder why you chose the comment, "Now that access to SCN
> > merely means access to the Internet" as it seems to imply something
changed
> > and for the worse.  It follows that SCN has stopped offering some
functions
> > which in some way, you feel, diminishes the hard work of the volunteers
of
> > the current and evolving services.  Could you explain why or how SCN has
> > changed in your eyes?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Steve
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Mabel" <jmabel at speakeasy.org>
> > To: "Doug Schuler" <douglas at scn.org>
> > Cc: "patrick fisher" <clariun at yahoo.com>; "scn" <scn at scn.org>;
> > <scna-board at scn.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 11:58 PM
> > Subject: BD: Re: principles
> >
> >
> > > [SNIP]
> > > >      * We will make the SCN accessible from public places.
> > > [SNIP]
> > >
> > > How long since the Board, or some other appropriate body, gave any
thought
> > to
> > > what this now means? Now that access to SCN merely means access to the
> > Internet,
> > > what (if anything) are we doing to enhance the availability of access
to
> > the
> > > Internet in pubic places?
> > >
> > > JM
> > >
> > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* *
> > > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' internal
> > > communications.  Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have questions
> > > about this list.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From bb615 at scn.org  Mon Apr  1 17:52:11 2002
From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 17:52:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: SCN Home Page Update for April 2002
In-Reply-To: <20020401000637.12162.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020401172334.7931A-100000@scn>

> Four new SCN hosted sites are profiled.

Patrick, 

   For May, may I suggest Dr. Bartle's (and his Spanish-speaking
colleagues') new Spanish translation of the Community
Self-Management site? Some of it is available now in three
languages.

   English:
        http://www.scn.org/cmp/
   French:
        http://www.scn.org/gcad/
   Spanish:
        http://www.scn.org/mpfc/

   Are there other new sites recently? The four for April have
each been featured before. All of them are pretty much the kind
of upscale North End sites that we decided a few years ago not
to feature exclusively, because of what that said about SCN and
who SCN was or wasn't including, serving, and attracting to its
services. They're all nice sites, but not too much of the
"democracy" part of SCN is apparent in them. Maybe other people
here could suggest some other sites for May, too. 

Rod Clark

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From bb615 at scn.org  Mon Apr  1 18:08:50 2002
From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:08:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: BD: Re: Re: principles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.20.0204010625160.7303-100000@scn.scn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020401180414.16771A-100000@scn>

Doug Schuler wrote (to Dr. Guest):

> It seems to me that we look at the principles through different
> eyes.  

Doug, 

   Would you consider running for election to the SCN
Association board this year? 

   If not, who might you suggest, who we might try to persuade
to help turn SCN around, to get it unstuck from this malaise? I
just don't have five votes on the board, and expect never to
have them as things stand.

Rod Clark

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  1 18:41:35 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:41:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: BD: Re: Re: principles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020401180414.16771A-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <20020402024135.40761.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>

Rod,

Could we have some specifics about the malaise? I'm not good at guessing and my
crystal ball broke and is out of warrantee.

Also, seems like things are just fine at SCN. Sure, it can be frustrating sometimes,
but that's life in the big city. 

Patrick


--- Rod Clark <bb615 at scn.org> wrote:
> Doug Schuler wrote (to Dr. Guest):
> 
> > It seems to me that we look at the principles through different
> > eyes.  
> 
> Doug, 
> 
>    Would you consider running for election to the SCN
> Association board this year? 
> 
>    If not, who might you suggest, who we might try to persuade
> to help turn SCN around, to get it unstuck from this malaise? I
> just don't have five votes on the board, and expect never to
> have them as things stand.
> 
> Rod Clark
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  1 18:44:50 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:44:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Recruiting Re: SCN: SCN Home Page Update for April 2002
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020401172334.7931A-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <20020402024450.73378.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>

Rod,

Thank you for the suggestion. I have asked this mailing list in the past for
suggestions, but rarely got any feedback.

I just went on our hosted page and grabbed the sites that looked good: No frames, or
choice of non-frames, seemed up-to-date, and had some text to grab.

Maybe we need a recruiter to get people and organizations to host on SCN?

Patrick

--- Rod Clark <bb615 at scn.org> wrote:
> > Four new SCN hosted sites are profiled.
> 
> Patrick, 
> 
>    For May, may I suggest Dr. Bartle's (and his Spanish-speaking
> colleagues') new Spanish translation of the Community
> Self-Management site? Some of it is available now in three
> languages.
> 
>    English:
>         http://www.scn.org/cmp/
>    French:
>         http://www.scn.org/gcad/
>    Spanish:
>         http://www.scn.org/mpfc/
> 
>    Are there other new sites recently? The four for April have
> each been featured before. All of them are pretty much the kind
> of upscale North End sites that we decided a few years ago not
> to feature exclusively, because of what that said about SCN and
> who SCN was or wasn't including, serving, and attracting to its
> services. They're all nice sites, but not too much of the
> "democracy" part of SCN is apparent in them. Maybe other people
> here could suggest some other sites for May, too. 
> 
> Rod Clark
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jj at scn.org  Mon Apr  1 23:22:10 2002
From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:22:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: principles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204010310050.3327-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020401223451.2262C-100000@scn>

I am indeed a little confused here.  Let's sort it out.

To the extent that people access SCN _from_ the Internet they implicitly
_already have_ access _to_ the Internet, independently of SCN.  It seems
to me that you're saying we should provide Internet access to those that
already have it. 

The "particular advantage" of accessing SCN via dialup is for the inverse
case of those (like myself) that otherwise are without access to the
Internet.  For sure it has its limitations, but if (as has been suggested) 
we dropped the dailup lines then reaching SCN would be subordinate to
reaching the Internet, which would be conditioned on paying monthly fees
to the likes of Qwest/AT&T/MCI/AOL/etc. 

One interpretation of what you may be saying is that SCN provide some
_other_ kind of access to the Internet as would permit full graphic
browers _back_ to SCN.  Well, if you're talking about some sort of walk-up
kiosk, to a large extent we already have that.  If you're talking about
accessing the Internet and/or SCN (with full graphics) from home, well,
that's either broadband (Qwest...) or--dialup!  And if we had the Internet
connection for doing that (and were set up for it) it could be done
directly, without any kind of backtracking.  But perhaps this wasn't what
you meant.

(Such considerations all tending back the original question of purpose.)

=== JJ =============================================================

On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Joe Mabel wrote:

> You misunderstood me.  I meant that now anyone with access to the Internet has 
> access to SCN.  There is no paticular advantage to anyone to get to SCN any 
> other way than via the Internet.  So if we give them access to the Internet, owe 
> have just given them access to SCN. There is no partiulcar advantage to coming 
> at SCN through an SCN dialup.  In fact, there is what I (and Isuspect most 
> users) would consider a distinct disadvantage: lack of a visual browser.
> 
> --------------------
> Joe Mabel
> 
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, J. Johnson wrote:
> 
> > I don't think I'd agree with your statement that "access to SCN merely
> > means access to the Internet".  There was some discussion a ways back
> > about whether SCN should "be an on-ramp to the Internet".  (That could be
> > taken several ways, e.g.:  be a non-Internet local BBS, or be a rest-stop
> > on the Internet but with no local access.)  But I don't think we want to
> > be "merely" an on-ramp.
> > 
> > === JJ =============================================================
> > 
> > On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, Joe Mabel wrote:
> > 
> > > [SNIP]
> > > >      * We will make the SCN accessible from public places.
> > > [SNIP]
> > > 
> > > How long since the Board, or some other appropriate body, gave any thought to 
> > > what this now means? Now that access to SCN merely means access to the Internet, 
> > > what (if anything) are we doing to enhance the availability of access to the 
> > > Internet in pubic places?
> > > 
> > > JM
> > > 
> > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > > unsubscribe scn
> > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > > 
> > 
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > 
> 
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From heather at pti-inc.com  Mon Apr  1 23:06:39 2002
From: heather at pti-inc.com (Heather Wilson)
Date: 02 Apr 02 01:06:39 -0600
Subject: SCN: Adv: Semiconductor Training Courses
Message-ID: <200204021032.FAA16734@antipater.hosting.swbell.net>



PTI Seminars is presenting the following courses for
semiconductor and electronic personnel....

 For more details call 636-343-1333 and ask for Heather Wilson.

 ABCs of IC DESIGN & FABRICATION
 http://www.ptiseminars.com
  April 9, 2002 Boston, MA
  April 19, 2002 Munich, Germany
  April 26 Penang, Malaysia  http://www.psdc.org.my
  April 29, 2002 San Jose, CA
  April 30, 2002  Phoenix, AZ
  May 17, 2002  Austin, TX
  May 29, 2002 Singapore
  July 25, 2002 San Francisco  (Semicon West)

This course describes in simple terms a sequential format of
information that constitutes the major fabrication processes and design
for integrated devices. This one (1) day seminar gives you a
comprehensive overview of the semiconductor industry & technology.
The course will give you the background you need to understand the
basics of semiconductor devices, how they work, the processing
technologies & equipment to produce them, and circuit design techniques.

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ABCs of BASIC ELECTRONICS AND DEVICES
  April 25   Penang, Malaysia  http://www.psdc.org.my
  June 20, 2002   San Jose, CA

CMOS DIGITAL DESIGN
 May 1-2   Penang, Malaysia  http://www.psdc.org.my
 June 27-28, 2002 San Jose, CA


DEVICE PHYSICS MADE EASY
  April 8, 2002  San Jose, CA
  June 10, 2002 San Jose, CA

FLIP CHIP, WLCSP & MICROVIA TECHNOLOGIES
  June 3  Penang, Malaysia  http://www.psdc.org.my
  July 19, 2002 San Francisco, CA (Semicon West)

Fundamentals of CHEMICAL MECHANICAL PROCESSING
 Presented by: Srini Raghavan
  June 5, 2002   San Jose, CA

Fundamentals of CHEMICAL VAPOR DEPOSITION
  June 27, 2002   San Jose, CA

Fundamentals of ION IMPLANTATION
 June 26, 2002   San Jose, CA

Fundamentals of MEMS DESIGN & FABRICATION
 April 10, 2002   San Jose, CA
 July 24, 2002  San Francisco, CA  (Semicon West)

Fundamentals of METALLIZATION
 May 30  Penang, Malaysia  http://www.psdc.org.my
 June 28, 2002   San Jose, CA

Fundamental RF Plasma Generation for Semiconductor Equipment
 July 24-25, 2002  San Francisco, CA  (Semicon West)

Fundamentals of WET & DRY ETCH
 June 6, 2002   San Jose, CA

Fundamentals of PHOTOLITHOGRAPHY
 June 21, 2002 San Jose, CA

Fundamentals of THERMAL PROCESSING
 June 26, 2002   San Jose, CA

INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY STRATEGIES
for SEMICONDUCTOR INDUSTRY COMPANIES
 April 9-10, 2002  San Jose, CA
 May 6-7  Penang, Malaysia  http://www.psdc.org.my
 July 24-25, 2002  San Francisco, CA (Semicon West)

Intro to MICRO CONTAMINATION CONTROL
 June 24, 2002  San Jose, CA

Intro to INTEGRATED YIELD MANAGEMENT
 April 18-19, 2002  Munich, Germany (Semicon Europa)
 May 6-7, 2002  Singapore (Semicon Singapore)
 May 9-10  Penang, Malaysia  http://www.psdc.org.my
 May 16-17, 2002 San Jose, CA
 July 18-19, 2002 (Semicon West)

Intro to STATISTICAL PROCESSING CONTROL  (SPC)
 April 9, 2002  San Jose, CA
 June 11, 2002 San Jose, CA

PRODUCT MARKETING for the SEMICONDUCTOR INDUSTRY
 April 18, 2002 Munich, Germany (Semicon Europa)
 May 9, 2002 Singapore (Semicon Singapore)
 June 20, 2002 San Jose, CA
 July 24, 2002 San Francisco, CA (Semicon West)

ADVANCED LITHOGRAPHY
 July 24, 2002  San Francisco, CA  (Semicon West)


CHECK OUR WEB SITE FOR ADDITIONAL COURSES !!
 http://www.ptiseminars.com

 For a FULL TRAINING SCHEDULE of "open" course dates visit
  http://www.pti-inc.com and click on the Schedule button

TO REGISTER Go To
http:www.pti-seminars.com   and click on the Registration Button.

 TO SPEAK:
    * to an account manager about ATTENDING these courses or having them

 ONSITE
    contact us at (636) 343-1333 in the USA.  Ask for HEATHER WILSON.
    * Fax  (636) 343-8642
    * Email: heather at pti-inc.com

 PTI SEMINARS, INC.  "We Exceed Your Expectations!"

 * To unsubscribe please reply to heather at pti-inc.com and in the
  subject "Unsubscribe".  We apologize for any inconvenience.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jmabel at speakeasy.org  Tue Apr  2 03:25:51 2002
From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 03:25:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: principles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020401223451.2262C-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204020136460.1064-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>

JJ, perhaps you are confused, but not totally, judging by what you go on to say. 
And I suspect that the source of the confusion is tha you, more than anyone, are 
focused on day-to-day operations, and that my point was about the opposite 
extreme of focus.

Let me try this from another angle.

When we started SCN, it wasn't really part of the Internet. Indeed, the Internet 
as we know it today barely existed. "Internet" still largely connoted an 
academic/research network. There were many competing visions for what was 
variously called an "Information Superhighway", a "Cybercommons", etc.

Now the Internet is "the only game in town". We can add more content 
to the Web, we might even imaginably add another technology to it, but we 
are less likely to "replace" it than to replace the Interstate 
Highway system or the spelling of the English language. Similarly, someone can 
perhaps add new technologies to e-mail, or repurpose old ones, but Internet 
email is the only email that matters. A system can have some very local, very 
obscure way to move files around, but if we do not support ftp, http, etc., we 
are choosing a hard road, and we may find ourselves travelling it alone.

For better or worse, the only way to build any sort of Information Superhighway 
or Cybercommons in the near future is to participate, one way or another, in the 
common project of building the Internet. Nobody wants another non-Internet BBS.  
Hell, even a giant like Microsoft is running into trouble over the fact that the 
desktop is ultimately not part of the Internet, and they are trying to 
reposition themselves as the world's largest ASP.

When we said, almost 10 years ago, "We will make the SCN accessible from public 
places" or stated a particular concern for providing access for the poor, this 
was not the state of the world. For example, it was not a given that you could 
access ANY computer services from a public library. Now, in many libraries, teh 
majority of the available information services - not to mention communication 
services - come from a computer.

Let me be clear: I think it's fine that we provide 24 lines of essentially free
dialup, especially because you can use it successfully from your home with even
the sort of equipment you can now scavenge from the city dump.   There are 
obviously
people - JJ among them - who find this useful. Let's keep doing it. However, 
we should recognize that this is a solution limited to protocols that were in 
common use a decade ago. It seems to me that if we can work out how to get full, 
modern Internet services to people - whether through technology we provide, 
through fundraising and support of other groups, through helping people learn 
about what resources are available through whatever channels, etc. - and if the 
net result is to provide a PPP connection (and the equipment to use it) or 
equivalent to people for little or no cost to them, then (1) there are far more 
people who want that than there are people who want a text-only connection and 
(2) it will not matter one jot that the connection may not be directly to SCN: 
any Internet connection today gives you (among many other things) what we meant 
10 years ago by "access to SCN". There is no meaningful user access to the SCN 
system that you cannot get through the Internet.

In short, I'm not proposing that we stop doing anything we are now doing. What I 
am proposing is that SCNA take a look at what we can do as an organization - 
perhaps by technical means, perhaps simply by providing a forum for discussion, 
etc. - to best provide resources (especially public resources) to those who need 
them.

Along the way in this exchange of emails someone (I think it was Steve. If I'm 
wrong, sorry, I haven't been saving all my emails; also, sorry if I didn't 
understand the point correctly) seemed to be saying, well, we've supported the 
city government's efforts to get Internet access in public places, and they seem 
to think it's a solved problem, so what else is there to do?

Is SCN actually to be limited to seeing no farther than our elected officials? 
Do we really feel that, even in Seattle, the digital divide has been abolished? 
And in the unlikely even that we conclude that in this city (admittedly 
uncommonly successfuly in this respect) the strictly local problem has been 
solved, does that mean we shouldn't look at the problem in a broader context? 
Hell, if we think Seattle is a great example of conquering the digital divide, 
what do we do to evangelize the model and get it adopted elsewhere?

In short, if we shift the focus briefly off of our own short-term operational 
concerns, and off of the concept that we have to make everything happen 
ourselves, rather than catalyzing, what can we best do to enhance access of 
the poor and otherwise disenfranchised to:

1) Access the internet as users
2) Place content on the internet
3) Use the internet as a means of mutual communication
4) Have a role in hepinp determine the future of the internet.

This is not a simple issue, and it is so out of proportion to the question of 
day-to-day operations that I do not expect it to have immediate effects on 
everyday operations.  However, if we do not revisiti this kind of questions on 
these levels - especially if the Board does not - we are dooming ourselves to 
irrelevance in the long run.

"Where there is no vision, people perish." - Proverbs 29:18.

--------------------
Joe Mabel

On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, J. Johnson wrote:

> I am indeed a little confused here.  Let's sort it out.
> 
> To the extent that people access SCN _from_ the Internet they implicitly
> _already have_ access _to_ the Internet, independently of SCN.  It seems
> to me that you're saying we should provide Internet access to those that
> already have it. 
> 
> The "particular advantage" of accessing SCN via dialup is for the inverse
> case of those (like myself) that otherwise are without access to the
> Internet.  For sure it has its limitations, but if (as has been suggested) 
> we dropped the dailup lines then reaching SCN would be subordinate to
> reaching the Internet, which would be conditioned on paying monthly fees
> to the likes of Qwest/AT&T/MCI/AOL/etc. 
> 
> One interpretation of what you may be saying is that SCN provide some
> _other_ kind of access to the Internet as would permit full graphic
> browers _back_ to SCN.  Well, if you're talking about some sort of walk-up
> kiosk, to a large extent we already have that.  If you're talking about
> accessing the Internet and/or SCN (with full graphics) from home, well,
> that's either broadband (Qwest...) or--dialup!  And if we had the Internet
> connection for doing that (and were set up for it) it could be done
> directly, without any kind of backtracking.  But perhaps this wasn't what
> you meant.
> 
> (Such considerations all tending back the original question of purpose.)
> 
> === JJ =============================================================
> 
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Joe Mabel wrote:
> 
> > You misunderstood me.  I meant that now anyone with access to the Internet has 
> > access to SCN.  There is no paticular advantage to anyone to get to SCN any 
> > other way than via the Internet.  So if we give them access to the Internet, owe 
> > have just given them access to SCN. There is no partiulcar advantage to coming 
> > at SCN through an SCN dialup.  In fact, there is what I (and Isuspect most 
> > users) would consider a distinct disadvantage: lack of a visual browser.
> > 
> > --------------------
> > Joe Mabel
> > 
> > On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, J. Johnson wrote:
> > 
> > > I don't think I'd agree with your statement that "access to SCN merely
> > > means access to the Internet".  There was some discussion a ways back
> > > about whether SCN should "be an on-ramp to the Internet".  (That could be
> > > taken several ways, e.g.:  be a non-Internet local BBS, or be a rest-stop
> > > on the Internet but with no local access.)  But I don't think we want to
> > > be "merely" an on-ramp.
> > > 
> > > === JJ =============================================================
> > > 
> > > On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, Joe Mabel wrote:
> > > 
> > > > [SNIP]
> > > > >      * We will make the SCN accessible from public places.
> > > > [SNIP]
> > > > 
> > > > How long since the Board, or some other appropriate body, gave any thought to 
> > > > what this now means? Now that access to SCN merely means access to the Internet, 
> > > > what (if anything) are we doing to enhance the availability of access to the 
> > > > Internet in pubic places?
> > > > 
> > > > JM
> > > > 
> > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > > > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > > > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > > > unsubscribe scn
> > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > > > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > > unsubscribe scn
> > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From steve at groupworks.org  Tue Apr  2 04:04:10 2002
From: steve at groupworks.org (Steve Guest)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 04:04:10 -0800
Subject: SCN: Re: principles
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204020136460.1064-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <005901c1da3e$81c0ac80$5f51a0d8@dellxpsr350>

Joe and others
And again staying personal and not the official response

There are several things here.  First your logic is flawed and you should
have reread my comments before drawing a conclusion.  You asked "Is SCN
actually to be limited to seeing no farther than our elected officials?"
while I clearly stated that even though the UW (not the City) concluded we
need do no further expansion of public access - both SCN and the City were
continuing to work on this.  It is the fact that with such "evidence"
around, it is the other funders that will not anti up and support this.  The
philanthropists are putting their limited money resources where it is said
to be most needed - and currently this seems to be going to New York.  So
there was no political statement - just a set of facts.

I agree that any 501(c)3 Board, and especially at this time of cash flow
challenges, should be concentrating on just two things - long term strategy
and fundraising.  It would seem that for some the SCN Board is still not
there yet.  Plus, it must be remembered, it is not easy to have a long term
strategy, when you are being sued for more money than you have.

Finally - we have discussed services before - as you seem to be admitting to
being one of the planners of SCN - then some decisions where taken then that
have never been revisited.  As the day-to-day manager, my current tasks have
been aimed at providing a service which can exist within the initially
created funding model and the environment that we have.  Long term plans
must address all of these issues.  The Board does realize this, because I
point it out to them on a regular basis.  So it is fine to sit and discuss
the introduction of great and wonderful services, but do not expect a
positive response if it does not also have a matching funding model which is
both legal or practical.

SCN is a non-profit business and needs to be managed as such.  Currently it
is one of the few that does not pay any of its officers.  We are all
volunteers.

I would also like to add, that as far as a service is concerned, you seem to
belittle what we currently offer, text or otherwise.  I have repeatedly
pointed out that SCN is still the only free email service which upholds the
freedom of speech and the right to anonymity.  Read the "User Agreements" of
Yahoo (soon to charge) and Hotmail (supposedly soon to charge) and you will
see that they can cut you off for any reason they wish.  I, and our legal
support, have spent hours defending the rights of the users of the service
when others on Yahoo, Hotmail and others have asked for their accounts to be
blocked because they did not like their views.  I believe this to be a very
important service and still unique in this area.

I should remind you, that we do expect civility between our volunteers and
their dealings with the users.  Plus we will not allow any unlawful
interactions.

I hope this helps
Steve

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From NEWS at synersource.com  Tue Apr  2 05:41:52 2002
From: NEWS at synersource.com (Karen Mercer)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:41:52 -0500
Subject: SCN: If your circumstances and/or needs change
Message-ID: <3B6729BFE3F4D743B1285C8B90B664A6090C2F@synaspnode1.SynASPDomain>

We understand an organizations priorities change. If your circumstances
and/or needs change the SynerSource EMR system demonstration can be
viewed by using this link.
                      
       http://www.synersource.com/demo?i=9197

Take a look at your leisure.  By the way, if you click on this link, you
are automatically registered for a $250 gift certificate.   Click our
link!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From randy at scn.org  Tue Apr  2 08:05:38 2002
From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 08:05:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: principles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204020136460.1064-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0204020757180.1883-100000@scn.scn.org>


One of the things that has given me a bit of a boost recently is talking
with a new volunteer, John Traylor.  He has been working for some time
with the homeless - specifically finding out ways to provide shelter.  One
of the things that he would like to do is provide some sort of kiosk type
arrangement in the shelters, to provide the homeless with a way to
connect, both with e-mail and to browse the web, but also a way to connect
with voice mail and the other amenities that we who are not homeless
pretty much take for granted (and little do we know how slim that
advantage could be ...).

Partnering with John's group would be an excellent way for SCNA to pursue
some of our goals.  There are many possibilities here.  This is definitely
one way to push our principle of connectivity,

-randy


>
> Is SCN actually to be limited to seeing no farther than our elected officials?
> Do we really feel that, even in Seattle, the digital divide has been abolished?
> And in the unlikely even that we conclude that in this city (admittedly
> uncommonly successfuly in this respect) the strictly local problem has been
> solved, does that mean we shouldn't look at the problem in a broader context?
> Hell, if we think Seattle is a great example of conquering the digital divide,
> what do we do to evangelize the model and get it adopted elsewhere?
>
> In short, if we shift the focus briefly off of our own short-term operational
> concerns, and off of the concept that we have to make everything happen
> ourselves, rather than catalyzing, what can we best do to enhance access of
> the poor and otherwise disenfranchised to:
>
> 1) Access the internet as users
> 2) Place content on the internet
> 3) Use the internet as a means of mutual communication
> 4) Have a role in hepinp determine the future of the internet.
>
> This is not a simple issue, and it is so out of proportion to the question of
> day-to-day operations that I do not expect it to have immediate effects on
> everyday operations.  However, if we do not revisiti this kind of questions on
> these levels - especially if the Board does not - we are dooming ourselves to
> irrelevance in the long run.
>
> "Where there is no vision, people perish." - Proverbs 29:18.
>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From randyhayhurst at hotmail.com  Tue Apr  2 09:54:24 2002
From: randyhayhurst at hotmail.com (Randy Hayhurst)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 09:54:24 -0800
Subject: SCN: Re: principles
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204020136460.1064-100000@grace.speakeasy.net> <005901c1da3e$81c0ac80$5f51a0d8@dellxpsr350>
Message-ID: <DAV12lmpcQABZTW5k1E000165fa@hotmail.com>

AMEN to Steve!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  2 12:03:39 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:03:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: E-mail evolving into "Fee-Mail"
Message-ID: <20020402200339.45867.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com>

Good article on all the crazy stuff with Hotmail and Yahoo and premium services:

http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2002/04/01/fee-mail.htm

And there is The End of Free web site which chronicles the end of free services:

http://www.theendoffree.com/

Patrick

=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From tlocke at kcts.org  Tue Apr  2 13:20:49 2002
From: tlocke at kcts.org (Locke, Ti)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:20:49 -0800 
Subject: SCN: Kiosks
Message-ID: <CDE716D019F4D211B9E00090276213F70200A9AB@KCTSMAIL>

Well then...it just so happens that I'm hacking my way through a five-year
paln for SCN. In it's current and cumbersome first draft, the plan
encompasses just about everything anyone has ever said that SCN should
do...dating back to 1994, when my involvement with SCN started. (I was
cleaning my files and discovered a cache of newsgroup printouts/emails,
etc...)

Certain themes have continued through the years and information kiosks is
one...I used to create these in another life, so I'm pretty clear on the
costs, maintenance, etc. 

Feel free to fire off any ideas y'all have to me, just remember that there
are two caveats per what SCN can and cannot do. 

#1 is our relationship to the Seattle Public Library 
	--we cannot charge for our services; 
	--our bandwidth, as it were, is limited; and
	--we **could** get wildly successful and be able to separate from
the library...

#2 is that our primary function as a 501(c)3 is education.

Everything flows from these two points. I'm a grantwriter and have had to
let numerous opportunities slide by while we pulled all the pieces together
to have a web site that was at least navigable. That means back of the the
shop and front: hardware, software AND reorganizing the "look" of the SCN
site. The good news is that we're getting there... 


Ti Locke
KCTS Television
401 Mercer; Seattle, WA 98109
Direct: 206/443-4860  Fax: 206/443-6691
tlocke at kcts.org





* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From femme2 at speakeasy.org  Tue Apr  2 14:52:44 2002
From: femme2 at speakeasy.org (Lorraine Pozzi)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 14:52:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: principles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0204020757180.1883-100000@scn.scn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204021446160.15370-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>


Thanks, Randy.  I was just down at Angeline's, a day center for
homeless women.  Crowded, noisy, really pretty overwhelming. 
I visited them several years ago about Internet access and was
received with incredulity.  But now they have a donated computer
(no printer) and access to the Internet.  But no staff available
for training.  Some of these women have never operated a mouse.
Many of them are a bit touchy about the ways "assistance" is
offered.  I'm sure there are more of these opportunities if SCN
has volunteers who are willing to help.  The IMC has offered some
training classes - but only at their own center, I believe, and
with outreach that limits the type of attendees.  Not that free
classes anywhere are not a good thing.  Just that much more
remains to be done. 

Lorraine
===========================================



On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Randy Groves wrote:

> 
> One of the things that has given me a bit of a boost recently is talking
> with a new volunteer, John Traylor.  He has been working for some time
> with the homeless - specifically finding out ways to provide shelter.  One
> of the things that he would like to do is provide some sort of kiosk type
> arrangement in the shelters, to provide the homeless with a way to
> connect, both with e-mail and to browse the web, but also a way to connect
> with voice mail and the other amenities that we who are not homeless
> pretty much take for granted (and little do we know how slim that
> advantage could be ...).
> 
> Partnering with John's group would be an excellent way for SCNA to pursue
> some of our goals.  There are many possibilities here.  This is definitely
> one way to push our principle of connectivity,
> 
> -randy
> 
> 
> >
> > Is SCN actually to be limited to seeing no farther than our elected officials?
> > Do we really feel that, even in Seattle, the digital divide has been abolished?
> > And in the unlikely even that we conclude that in this city (admittedly
> > uncommonly successfuly in this respect) the strictly local problem has been
> > solved, does that mean we shouldn't look at the problem in a broader context?
> > Hell, if we think Seattle is a great example of conquering the digital divide,
> > what do we do to evangelize the model and get it adopted elsewhere?
> >
> > In short, if we shift the focus briefly off of our own short-term operational
> > concerns, and off of the concept that we have to make everything happen
> > ourselves, rather than catalyzing, what can we best do to enhance access of
> > the poor and otherwise disenfranchised to:
> >
> > 1) Access the internet as users
> > 2) Place content on the internet
> > 3) Use the internet as a means of mutual communication
> > 4) Have a role in hepinp determine the future of the internet.
> >
> > This is not a simple issue, and it is so out of proportion to the question of
> > day-to-day operations that I do not expect it to have immediate effects on
> > everyday operations.  However, if we do not revisiti this kind of questions on
> > these levels - especially if the Board does not - we are dooming ourselves to
> > irrelevance in the long run.
> >
> > "Where there is no vision, people perish." - Proverbs 29:18.
> >
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  2 19:21:40 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:21:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Kiosks
In-Reply-To: <CDE716D019F4D211B9E00090276213F70200A9AB@KCTSMAIL>
Message-ID: <20020403032140.36977.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>

Ti,

Thanks for the input. And the clarification of SCN's main goals/points.

I feel we are heading for a new starting point soon after the new look is
implemented and more services, like stock CGIs are in place. And the new mail
program.

I hope we can get FTP for all, soon. That will really be a winner for SCN. There is
a script that was written that would help accomplish this. With that, I don't think
we need to hear about how unsecure FTP is. If it is unsecure, fine. But the rest of
the world deems it usable. And the rest of the world uses it.

What I'd like to see is to have volunteers whose task is to promote SCN. Once all
the main pieces fall into place. And more coordinators to track what is going on. 

It seems that a lot of the work I do is coordination and informing people of what is
going on. Sometimes I get to do web work. With that said, I'm going to lay low from
coordination and get to the meat of the project ahead of me: Which is rewriting and
tightening the site up.

It is daunting, but I feel very priviledged to have the opportunity to do this. And
working on it is a fun challenge. Compliments my day job.

I like what the Tampa Bay Freenet is doing. Who wouldn't like that? They seem to
have a nice little thing going on over there. Maybe little isn't the word, though.
But they seemed to have nicely evaluated how to provide access for free. Looks very
pragmatic, although their site could use some work.

So that would be nice to have free PPP dial-up access. 

And I think we need to look at education for the public: What do they want? What do
they need? How can we accomplish that? It happened in the past. Does the library
adequately provide classes on the internet? Web site creation? Email classes?

With that, I think web creation classes would be a great thing to teach people once
FTP access is implemented for users. It would be a winning combination.

Patrick

Patrick
Patrick

--- "Locke, Ti" <tlocke at kcts.org> wrote:
> Well then...it just so happens that I'm hacking my way through a five-year
> paln for SCN. In it's current and cumbersome first draft, the plan
> encompasses just about everything anyone has ever said that SCN should
> do...dating back to 1994, when my involvement with SCN started. (I was
> cleaning my files and discovered a cache of newsgroup printouts/emails,
> etc...)
> 
> Certain themes have continued through the years and information kiosks is
> one...I used to create these in another life, so I'm pretty clear on the
> costs, maintenance, etc. 
> 
> Feel free to fire off any ideas y'all have to me, just remember that there
> are two caveats per what SCN can and cannot do. 
> 
> #1 is our relationship to the Seattle Public Library 
> 	--we cannot charge for our services; 
> 	--our bandwidth, as it were, is limited; and
> 	--we **could** get wildly successful and be able to separate from
> the library...
> 
> #2 is that our primary function as a 501(c)3 is education.
> 
> Everything flows from these two points. I'm a grantwriter and have had to
> let numerous opportunities slide by while we pulled all the pieces together
> to have a web site that was at least navigable. That means back of the the
> shop and front: hardware, software AND reorganizing the "look" of the SCN
> site. The good news is that we're getting there... 
> 
> 
> Ti Locke
> KCTS Television
> 401 Mercer; Seattle, WA 98109
> Direct: 206/443-4860  Fax: 206/443-6691
> tlocke at kcts.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  2 19:39:07 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:39:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: general meetings
Message-ID: <20020403033907.94936.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>

I wanted to say that the general meetings are getting better each time. Attendance
is increasing, even though we had only SCN volunteers last time.

I feel a great deal of the increasing success of the meetings is the fact that the
meetings are being held regularly and consistency. And the meetings are being
promoted, being mentioned at least twice, about a week before and a couple of days
before, on the scn at scn.org forum.

And people are reading the webmaster notes page. I'm getting feedback from people
who are pleased that they are being informed about what is going on at SCN. Some of
the feedback is from people and organizations who are thinking of hosting on SCN.
Some feedback and questions from webmasters of other freenets.

It's quite nice to know that a stirring is going on. That we are starting to see the
fruits of our labor.

I'm focusing on making SCN the portal that people come to when they want to find out
what is happening in the community. Communities.  SCN has some pretty cool links
that the other Seattle portals don't carry. And it's nice (NICE) to go to a portal
and not see distracting ads that seem to effectively water down the content on those
sites. Okay, I'm thinking of Seattle Insider, specifically.

I'm really looking forward to having original content on SCN. Reporting. Reflections
on the life in this part of the world. Heck, I look forward to chronicling the
things I do in the community: Places I go with my daughters, my digital camera
firmly planted in my hand. Easter egg hunts at local community centers, Greenwood
business district Halloween trick-or-treating during the day, profiling of local
businesses that add color and excitement to the community, such as the one by me
called GotRocks.


Patrick


PS: GotRocks is simply one of the most incredible shops I have ever been to. I
bought my oldest daughter a 45 million year old fish fossil in sandstone at this
shop. A nice, little present at an affordable $15. Okay, they charged me 2 bucks for
the stand, but they nicely packaged it in a gift box and gift wrap.



=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jmabel at speakeasy.org  Tue Apr  2 21:14:02 2002
From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:14:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: principles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0204020757180.1883-100000@scn.scn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204022113501.22300-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>

I could not agree more with Randy on this.

--------------------
Joe Mabel

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Randy Groves wrote:

> 
> One of the things that has given me a bit of a boost recently is talking
> with a new volunteer, John Traylor.  He has been working for some time
> with the homeless - specifically finding out ways to provide shelter.  One
> of the things that he would like to do is provide some sort of kiosk type
> arrangement in the shelters, to provide the homeless with a way to
> connect, both with e-mail and to browse the web, but also a way to connect
> with voice mail and the other amenities that we who are not homeless
> pretty much take for granted (and little do we know how slim that
> advantage could be ...).
> 
> Partnering with John's group would be an excellent way for SCNA to pursue
> some of our goals.  There are many possibilities here.  This is definitely
> one way to push our principle of connectivity,
> 
> -randy
> 
> 
> >
> > Is SCN actually to be limited to seeing no farther than our elected officials?
> > Do we really feel that, even in Seattle, the digital divide has been abolished?
> > And in the unlikely even that we conclude that in this city (admittedly
> > uncommonly successfuly in this respect) the strictly local problem has been
> > solved, does that mean we shouldn't look at the problem in a broader context?
> > Hell, if we think Seattle is a great example of conquering the digital divide,
> > what do we do to evangelize the model and get it adopted elsewhere?
> >
> > In short, if we shift the focus briefly off of our own short-term operational
> > concerns, and off of the concept that we have to make everything happen
> > ourselves, rather than catalyzing, what can we best do to enhance access of
> > the poor and otherwise disenfranchised to:
> >
> > 1) Access the internet as users
> > 2) Place content on the internet
> > 3) Use the internet as a means of mutual communication
> > 4) Have a role in hepinp determine the future of the internet.
> >
> > This is not a simple issue, and it is so out of proportion to the question of
> > day-to-day operations that I do not expect it to have immediate effects on
> > everyday operations.  However, if we do not revisiti this kind of questions on
> > these levels - especially if the Board does not - we are dooming ourselves to
> > irrelevance in the long run.
> >
> > "Where there is no vision, people perish." - Proverbs 29:18.
> >
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jmabel at speakeasy.org  Tue Apr  2 21:31:19 2002
From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:31:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Kiosks
In-Reply-To: <20020403032140.36977.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204022130100.22300-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>

On the the tech side, yes, ftp for all would be very welcome. And sure, it is 
insecure. So is http, and I never hear anyone say we shouldn't do that!

--------------------
Joe Mabel

On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:

> Ti,
> 
> Thanks for the input. And the clarification of SCN's main goals/points.
> 
> I feel we are heading for a new starting point soon after the new look is
> implemented and more services, like stock CGIs are in place. And the new mail
> program.
> 
> I hope we can get FTP for all, soon. That will really be a winner for SCN. There is
> a script that was written that would help accomplish this. With that, I don't think
> we need to hear about how unsecure FTP is. If it is unsecure, fine. But the rest of
> the world deems it usable. And the rest of the world uses it.
> 
> What I'd like to see is to have volunteers whose task is to promote SCN. Once all
> the main pieces fall into place. And more coordinators to track what is going on. 
> 
> It seems that a lot of the work I do is coordination and informing people of what is
> going on. Sometimes I get to do web work. With that said, I'm going to lay low from
> coordination and get to the meat of the project ahead of me: Which is rewriting and
> tightening the site up.
> 
> It is daunting, but I feel very priviledged to have the opportunity to do this. And
> working on it is a fun challenge. Compliments my day job.
> 
> I like what the Tampa Bay Freenet is doing. Who wouldn't like that? They seem to
> have a nice little thing going on over there. Maybe little isn't the word, though.
> But they seemed to have nicely evaluated how to provide access for free. Looks very
> pragmatic, although their site could use some work.
> 
> So that would be nice to have free PPP dial-up access. 
> 
> And I think we need to look at education for the public: What do they want? What do
> they need? How can we accomplish that? It happened in the past. Does the library
> adequately provide classes on the internet? Web site creation? Email classes?
> 
> With that, I think web creation classes would be a great thing to teach people once
> FTP access is implemented for users. It would be a winning combination.
> 
> Patrick
> 
> Patrick
> Patrick
> 
> --- "Locke, Ti" <tlocke at kcts.org> wrote:
> > Well then...it just so happens that I'm hacking my way through a five-year
> > paln for SCN. In it's current and cumbersome first draft, the plan
> > encompasses just about everything anyone has ever said that SCN should
> > do...dating back to 1994, when my involvement with SCN started. (I was
> > cleaning my files and discovered a cache of newsgroup printouts/emails,
> > etc...)
> > 
> > Certain themes have continued through the years and information kiosks is
> > one...I used to create these in another life, so I'm pretty clear on the
> > costs, maintenance, etc. 
> > 
> > Feel free to fire off any ideas y'all have to me, just remember that there
> > are two caveats per what SCN can and cannot do. 
> > 
> > #1 is our relationship to the Seattle Public Library 
> > 	--we cannot charge for our services; 
> > 	--our bandwidth, as it were, is limited; and
> > 	--we **could** get wildly successful and be able to separate from
> > the library...
> > 
> > #2 is that our primary function as a 501(c)3 is education.
> > 
> > Everything flows from these two points. I'm a grantwriter and have had to
> > let numerous opportunities slide by while we pulled all the pieces together
> > to have a web site that was at least navigable. That means back of the the
> > shop and front: hardware, software AND reorganizing the "look" of the SCN
> > site. The good news is that we're getting there... 
> > 
> > 
> > Ti Locke
> > KCTS Television
> > 401 Mercer; Seattle, WA 98109
> > Direct: 206/443-4860  Fax: 206/443-6691
> > tlocke at kcts.org
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 
> 
> =====
> Webmaster
> Seattle Community Network
> http://www.scn.org
> "Powering our communities with technology"
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  2 21:43:44 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:43:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Kiosks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204022130100.22300-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <20020403054344.77535.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com>

My bank deposits are not secure. The world's economy could go in the toilet and the
FDIC wouldn't be able to back up their policy. My car is not secure: Someone tried
to steal it once, causing 1500 in damage. My apartment is not secure: Someone could
use a battering ram to knock the door down.

Patrick

--- Joe Mabel <jmabel at speakeasy.org> wrote:
> On the the tech side, yes, ftp for all would be very welcome. And sure, it is 
> insecure. So is http, and I never hear anyone say we shouldn't do that!
> 
> --------------------
> Joe Mabel
> 
> On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:
> 
> > Ti,
> > 
> > Thanks for the input. And the clarification of SCN's main goals/points.
> > 
> > I feel we are heading for a new starting point soon after the new look is
> > implemented and more services, like stock CGIs are in place. And the new mail
> > program.
> > 
> > I hope we can get FTP for all, soon. That will really be a winner for SCN. There
> is
> > a script that was written that would help accomplish this. With that, I don't
> think
> > we need to hear about how unsecure FTP is. If it is unsecure, fine. But the rest
> of
> > the world deems it usable. And the rest of the world uses it.
> > 
> > What I'd like to see is to have volunteers whose task is to promote SCN. Once
> all
> > the main pieces fall into place. And more coordinators to track what is going
> on. 
> > 
> > It seems that a lot of the work I do is coordination and informing people of
> what is
> > going on. Sometimes I get to do web work. With that said, I'm going to lay low
> from
> > coordination and get to the meat of the project ahead of me: Which is rewriting
> and
> > tightening the site up.
> > 
> > It is daunting, but I feel very priviledged to have the opportunity to do this.
> And
> > working on it is a fun challenge. Compliments my day job.
> > 
> > I like what the Tampa Bay Freenet is doing. Who wouldn't like that? They seem to
> > have a nice little thing going on over there. Maybe little isn't the word,
> though.
> > But they seemed to have nicely evaluated how to provide access for free. Looks
> very
> > pragmatic, although their site could use some work.
> > 
> > So that would be nice to have free PPP dial-up access. 
> > 
> > And I think we need to look at education for the public: What do they want? What
> do
> > they need? How can we accomplish that? It happened in the past. Does the library
> > adequately provide classes on the internet? Web site creation? Email classes?
> > 
> > With that, I think web creation classes would be a great thing to teach people
> once
> > FTP access is implemented for users. It would be a winning combination.
> > 
> > Patrick
> > 
> > Patrick
> > Patrick
> > 
> > --- "Locke, Ti" <tlocke at kcts.org> wrote:
> > > Well then...it just so happens that I'm hacking my way through a five-year
> > > paln for SCN. In it's current and cumbersome first draft, the plan
> > > encompasses just about everything anyone has ever said that SCN should
> > > do...dating back to 1994, when my involvement with SCN started. (I was
> > > cleaning my files and discovered a cache of newsgroup printouts/emails,
> > > etc...)
> > > 
> > > Certain themes have continued through the years and information kiosks is
> > > one...I used to create these in another life, so I'm pretty clear on the
> > > costs, maintenance, etc. 
> > > 
> > > Feel free to fire off any ideas y'all have to me, just remember that there
> > > are two caveats per what SCN can and cannot do. 
> > > 
> > > #1 is our relationship to the Seattle Public Library 
> > > 	--we cannot charge for our services; 
> > > 	--our bandwidth, as it were, is limited; and
> > > 	--we **could** get wildly successful and be able to separate from
> > > the library...
> > > 
> > > #2 is that our primary function as a 501(c)3 is education.
> > > 
> > > Everything flows from these two points. I'm a grantwriter and have had to
> > > let numerous opportunities slide by while we pulled all the pieces together
> > > to have a web site that was at least navigable. That means back of the the
> > > shop and front: hardware, software AND reorganizing the "look" of the SCN
> > > site. The good news is that we're getting there... 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Ti Locke
> > > KCTS Television
> > > 401 Mercer; Seattle, WA 98109
> > > Direct: 206/443-4860  Fax: 206/443-6691
> > > tlocke at kcts.org
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > > unsubscribe scn
> > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > 
> > 
> > =====
> > Webmaster
> > Seattle Community Network
> > http://www.scn.org
> > "Powering our communities with technology"
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > 
> 


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From steve at advocate.net  Wed Apr  3 08:52:39 2002
From: steve at advocate.net (Steve)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 08:52:39 -0800
Subject: SCN: Kazaa
Message-ID: <3CAAC2D7.14183.239FD6A@localhost>

x-no-archive: yes

==================


(David Coursey, ZDNet)---Brilliant Digital Entertainment is the 
latest in a string of companies that seem to think Internet users are 
stupid. In this case, stupid enough to let Brilliant take over your 
computer for its own gain--without compensating you. Don't let 
them!  

Here's the story: Brilliant has been distributing its 3D advertising 
technology along with Kazaa's file-swapping software since last 
fall. But recently Brilliant started sending out additional software 
that would turn every computer running Kazaa into a node on 
Brilliant's own network.  

We know this because ZDNet's John Borland uncovered the story 
yesterday while reading a federal securities filing in which Brilliant 
described its plan to use end users' computers for distribution and 
file storage. It might also siphon off your unused processing power 
to have your computer do work on behalf of Brilliant's clients.  

Brilliant's clandestine network is based on a piece of software 
called "Altnet Secureinstall," which is bundled with the Kazaa 
software. That technology can connect to other peer-to-peer 
networks, ad servers, or file servers independently of the Kazaa 
software, and can be automatically updated to add new features.  

While Brilliant promises that customers will be given a chance to 
opt-in (or not, I suppose) before the network is turned on, and that 
some compensation will be offered, the company is under no 
obligation to do so. That's because buried in the fine print of the 
Kazaa user agreement is the following:  

"You hereby grant (Brilliant) the right to access and use the 
unused computing power and storage space on your computer/s 
and/or Internet access or bandwidth for the aggregation of content 
and use in distributed computing. The user acknowledges and 
authorizes this use without the right of compensation."  

You have to agree to those terms before you can use the Kazaa 
file-swapping service.  

My bet is that the company really will offer some trifling incentive 
for people to opt in--forever--before turning on its network. But that 
deal is one-sided: You have no way of knowing what your excess 
bandwidth and processor power is actually worth. Maybe Brilliant 
should give everyone who opts-in a share of its stock so everyone 
can share in the wealth the company hopes to create.  

Beyond questions of propriety and security--is the software safe 
from hackers?  You have to wonder - how are we supposed to 
trust Brilliant when they've already snuck their software onto 
millions of machines?  

Brilliant is not the only company trying to pull some version of this 
trick on users. Kontiki and Red Swoosh are also in the business of 
using other people's machines and bandwidth to distribute their 
own (and their clients) content. I don't know enough about these 
two companies to toss them into the same pile with Brilliant. But I 
suspect they are very close.  

Maybe someday a company like Brilliant will be honest with us, 
explaining its intentions upfront, and giving users a chance to opt-
in and receive fair compensation in return if they do. When that 
happens, maybe we will decide to say yes to the offer. I can't 
imagine why we would, given the privacy and other risks involved, 
but at least we should be given the chance to consider the offer.  

But since Brilliant has already missed the opportunity to be candid 
about its plans--and the software it's installed on millions of users' 
machines--I urge everyone to dump Kazaa and, in the process, 
send Brilliant packing. In doing so, you'll be protecting your 
computer, the Internet, and sending a message to slimeball 
companies about what is--and isn't--acceptable behavior.  


Copyright 2002 CNET Networks, Inc.





* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From emailer1 at netzero.net  Wed Apr  3 23:47:52 2002
From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 23:47:52 -0800
Subject: SCN: Re: Kiosks
References: <CDE716D019F4D211B9E00090276213F70200A9AB@KCTSMAIL>
Message-ID: <00ac01c1dbb2$f126d480$7152fea9@desktop>

Interesting Five-Year Plan.  Apparently, the item worth mentioning for the
next five years is the concept of information kiosks.  I would have hoped
that accomplishments of other free nets such as:  (1) PPP capability;  (2)
much better level of financial support; and (3) paid staff would be higher
on the list.

One item seemed intriguing:

--we **could** get wildly successful and be able to separate from
> the library...

If improved service required separation from the limitations imposed by the
library, there might have to be some focussed discussion and planning, such
as very involved communications with some of the free nets that have
upgraded their service and funding.

Perhaps that sort of planning will show up on this imminent "five-year
plan."

----- Original Message -----
From: Locke, Ti <tlocke at kcts.org>
To: <scna-board at scn.org>; Joe Mabel <jmabel at speakeasy.org>
Cc: J. Johnson <jj at scn.org>; <scn at scn.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 1:20 PM
Subject: SCN: Kiosks


> Well then...it just so happens that I'm hacking my way through a five-year
> paln for SCN. In it's current and cumbersome first draft, the plan
> encompasses just about everything anyone has ever said that SCN should
> do...dating back to 1994, when my involvement with SCN started. (I was
> cleaning my files and discovered a cache of newsgroup printouts/emails,
> etc...)
>
> Certain themes have continued through the years and information kiosks is
> one...I used to create these in another life, so I'm pretty clear on the
> costs, maintenance, etc.
>
> Feel free to fire off any ideas y'all have to me, just remember that there
> are two caveats per what SCN can and cannot do.
>
> #1 is our relationship to the Seattle Public Library
> --we cannot charge for our services;
> --our bandwidth, as it were, is limited; and
> --we **could** get wildly successful and be able to separate from
> the library...
>
> #2 is that our primary function as a 501(c)3 is education.
>
> Everything flows from these two points. I'm a grantwriter and have had to
> let numerous opportunities slide by while we pulled all the pieces
together
> to have a web site that was at least navigable. That means back of the the
> shop and front: hardware, software AND reorganizing the "look" of the SCN
> site. The good news is that we're getting there...
>
>
> Ti Locke
> KCTS Television
> 401 Mercer; Seattle, WA 98109
> Direct: 206/443-4860  Fax: 206/443-6691
> tlocke at kcts.org
>
>
>
>
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From emailer1 at netzero.net  Thu Apr  4 00:18:35 2002
From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 00:18:35 -0800
Subject: SCN: Public Forums on Post-9/11 Arms Control and Security Policy 
Message-ID: <00ae01c1dbb2$f2c2d140$7152fea9@desktop>

Wordy, but useful.

----- Original Message ----- 

> The Union of Concerned Scientists is pleased to invite you to an 
> upcoming series of public forums to discuss the future of arms 
> control and weapons of mass destruction in the post-September 11 
> environment. As you may have heard, the Bush Administration is 
> planning changes in US nuclear policy, including developing new kinds 
> of nuclear weapons and revitalizing nuclear weapons production.
> 
> Admission to these events is free, and the speakers are very 
> knowledgeable. The forums--co-sponsored by UCS--should be of special 
> interest to our members and activists.
> 
> We hope you can attend.
> 
> Chris Turner
> 
> Outreach Coordinator
> UCS Global Security Program
> 
> 
> + + + + +
> 
> The UW Institute for Global and Regional Security Studies at the 
> Jackson School of International Studies, the Lawyers' Alliance for 
> World Security, the Abe Keller Peace Education Fund and the World 
> Affairs Council of Seattle present:
> 
> Arms Control, Disarmament and the Proliferation of Weapons of Mass 
> Destruction after September 11
> 
> A Series of Four Public Forums
> At the University of Washington, admission free
> 
> Co-sponsors: United Nations Association, Seattle Chapter, Washington 
> Council on International Trade, Washington Physicians for Social 
> Responsibility, Union of Concerned Scientists
> 
> For forty years, negotiated arms control and disarmament agreements 
> have been a key component of United States national security 
> strategy. Whether bilateral or multilateral, these agreements have 
> enhanced the framework of international law fashioned after World War 
> II and designed to prevent another world conflict. 
> *  With the Cold War now a decade in the past and a new global 
> struggle against terrorism in the forefront, do arms control and 
> disarmament agreements still have an important role to play? 
> *  What are the causes and the consequences of the impending U.S. 
> withdrawal from the ABM Treaty, and continued U.S. opposition to the 
> Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty? 
> *  Will informal, mutual yet unilateral nuclear weapons reductions 
> replace formal treaties? 
> *  What will happen to U.S. programs to assist Russian efforts to 
> control their nuclear infrastructure?  
> *  Will international agreements to prevent the global spread of 
> weapons of mass destruction wither away? 
> Four expert veterans from the arms control and disarmament community 
> will address these issues from the standpoint of those who have been 
> on the inside of that effort.
> 
> I. Friday, April 5, 7:30 pm, Kane Hall 110, University of Washington
> "Is There a Future for Arms Control and Disarmament?"
> Ambassador Thomas Graham, Jr., Executive Director of the Lawyers' 
> Alliance for World Security and 27-year architect of arms control 
> negotiations.
> 
> II. Friday, April 26, 7:30pm, Kane Hall 110, University of Washington
> "Scrapping the ABM Treaty: Why, and What Next?"
> John Rhinelander, Board of Directors of the Arms Control Association, 
> legal expert at the ABM Treaty negotiations 
> 
> III. Friday, May 10, 7:30pm, Kane Hall 110, University of Washington
> "Helping Russia to Control Its Nuclear Infrastructure"
> Laura Holgate, Vice President for Russia Programs of the Nuclear 
> Threat Initiative, former manager of the Cooperative Threat Reduction 
> Program
> 
> IV. Friday, May 31, 7:30pm, Kane Hall 110, University of Washington
> "The U.S. Nuclear Posture Review and Weapons Reductions 
> Announcements: Where Do We Go from Here?"
> Robert McNamara, former Secretary of Defense, arms control expert
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From emailer1 at netzero.net  Thu Apr  4 00:27:19 2002
From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 00:27:19 -0800
Subject: SCN: Re: principles
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204020136460.1064-100000@grace.speakeasy.net> <005901c1da3e$81c0ac80$5f51a0d8@dellxpsr350>
Message-ID: <00af01c1dbb2$f44356c0$7152fea9@desktop>

I cranked up my super-duper "Scanalyzer" to determine the core message of
the following senders:

*    Joe Mabel.
*    Steve Guest,
*    T. Locke
*    JJ
*    Patrick Fisher

The results follow.

Joe Mabel:    We're 10 years out of date;  let's catch up!

Steve Guest:    Don't expect any changes.

T. Locke:    Did I tell you about my Kiosk idea?

JJ:    SCN is incompatible with upgraded service.

P. Fisher:    Things are fine at SCN.



----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Guest <steve at groupworks.org>
To: <scna-board at scn.org>; J. Johnson <jj at scn.org>
Cc: <scn at scn.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 4:04 AM
Subject: Re: Re: SCN: Re: principles


> Joe and others
> And again staying personal and not the official response
>
> There are several things here.  First your logic is flawed and you should
> have reread my comments before drawing a conclusion.  You asked "Is SCN
> actually to be limited to seeing no farther than our elected officials?"
> while I clearly stated that even though the UW (not the City) concluded we
> need do no further expansion of public access - both SCN and the City were
> continuing to work on this.  It is the fact that with such "evidence"
> around, it is the other funders that will not anti up and support this.
The
> philanthropists are putting their limited money resources where it is said
> to be most needed - and currently this seems to be going to New York.  So
> there was no political statement - just a set of facts.
>
> I agree that any 501(c)3 Board, and especially at this time of cash flow
> challenges, should be concentrating on just two things - long term
strategy
> and fundraising.  It would seem that for some the SCN Board is still not
> there yet.  Plus, it must be remembered, it is not easy to have a long
term
> strategy, when you are being sued for more money than you have.
>
> Finally - we have discussed services before - as you seem to be admitting
to
> being one of the planners of SCN - then some decisions where taken then
that
> have never been revisited.  As the day-to-day manager, my current tasks
have
> been aimed at providing a service which can exist within the initially
> created funding model and the environment that we have.  Long term plans
> must address all of these issues.  The Board does realize this, because I
> point it out to them on a regular basis.  So it is fine to sit and discuss
> the introduction of great and wonderful services, but do not expect a
> positive response if it does not also have a matching funding model which
is
> both legal or practical.
>
> SCN is a non-profit business and needs to be managed as such.  Currently
it
> is one of the few that does not pay any of its officers.  We are all
> volunteers.
>
> I would also like to add, that as far as a service is concerned, you seem
to
> belittle what we currently offer, text or otherwise.  I have repeatedly
> pointed out that SCN is still the only free email service which upholds
the
> freedom of speech and the right to anonymity.  Read the "User Agreements"
of
> Yahoo (soon to charge) and Hotmail (supposedly soon to charge) and you
will
> see that they can cut you off for any reason they wish.  I, and our legal
> support, have spent hours defending the rights of the users of the service
> when others on Yahoo, Hotmail and others have asked for their accounts to
be
> blocked because they did not like their views.  I believe this to be a
very
> important service and still unique in this area.
>
> I should remind you, that we do expect civility between our volunteers and
> their dealings with the users.  Plus we will not allow any unlawful
> interactions.
>
> I hope this helps
> Steve
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
>


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jj at scn.org  Thu Apr  4 17:45:33 2002
From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:45:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: principles
In-Reply-To: <00af01c1dbb2$f44356c0$7152fea9@desktop>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020404173855.19830B-100000@scn>

Funny thing, when I tried to run "emailer1"s messages through Scanalyzer
it kept saying "missing or meaningless input".  

=== JJ =============================================================

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From emailer1 at netzero.net  Fri Apr  5 05:39:12 2002
From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 05:39:12 -0800
Subject: SCN: Re: principles
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020404173855.19830B-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <000001c1dcaa$64731820$7152fea9@desktop>

Clever reparte'.  I tip my hat.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: J. Johnson <jj at scn.org>
To: emailer1 <emailer1 at netzero.net>
Cc: <scna-board at scn.org>; <scn at scn.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: Re: SCN: Re: principles


> Funny thing, when I tried to run "emailer1"s messages through Scanalyzer
> it kept saying "missing or meaningless input".  
> 
> === JJ =============================================================
> 
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From chantha_scn at yahoo.com  Fri Apr  5 18:59:18 2002
From: chantha_scn at yahoo.com (Chantha)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 18:59:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: server side includes
Message-ID: <20020406025918.44371.qmail@web21303.mail.yahoo.com>

I would like to try out server side includes for my
community pages.  So, whenever changes to the footer
or header are needed I can edit one set of files for
the header and footer.

Are server side includes enabled?

Thanks!






=====
Chantha

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  6 10:03:21 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:03:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: "Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act".
Message-ID: <20020406180321.1735.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>

More fun legislation:

The Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act.
�
The law would force all new personal computers and digital home entertainment
devices sold in the United States to have government-approved "policeware" built-in.
This policeware would restrict your use of copyrighted material on these devices --
including music files and CD's, video clips, DVD's, e-books, and more. 
�
Online petition: http://stoppoliceware.org/
�
More Info:�� http://www.msnbc.com/news/734617.asp

Patrick
�


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From bb615 at scn.org  Sat Apr  6 10:43:15 2002
From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 10:43:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: [webeditor_discussion] server side includes
In-Reply-To: <20020406025918.44371.qmail@web21303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020406102853.8240A-100000@scn>

Chantha, 

   For whatever reason, server side text includes seem not to be
working as designed any longer on SCN, certainly not in the way
that they have been used for the past several years on SCN's
pages. They appear to still work partially, but something is
wrong with how they are set up. For example, look at the text
includes for the search box on any of the SCN community pages
that haven't been redesigned lately. Instead of displaying the
text for the search box (contained in the text of a centrally
located include file), the Web server displays only the HTML
tags for them:

   <!--#include virtual="/include/search.html"--> (or whatever)

   My guess is that some anti-social Operations person has
silently disabled an essential part of the Apache server
configuration that defines what kinds of server-side includes
the Web server can interpret. That was a configuration setup
that we depended on when designing the overall site a couple of
years ago. In other words, some parts of the site now simply no
longer function. It is disappointing to see this capability
being lost, because it was a good way to avoid having to
hand-edit code on each of hundreds of separate pages.

Rod Clark

> I would like to try out server side includes for my
> community pages.  So, whenever changes to the footer
> or header are needed I can edit one set of files for
> the header and footer.
> 
> Are server side includes enabled?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  6 11:02:52 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 11:02:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: [webeditor_discussion] server side includes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020406102853.8240A-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <20020406190252.33724.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Lee,

How are you doing? It's been quiet around here.

Anyway, I wanted to ask you: Do you think we need SSI for the pages? I don't think
so. I'm thinking in terms of the way the nav bar is set up. If we did do it, I think
we'd only need it for the home page!

Excomm meeting went fine. Meeting today with new volunteer who may become the IP
coordinator.

Thanks,
Patrick


--- Rod Clark <bb615 at scn.org> wrote:
> Chantha, 
> 
>    For whatever reason, server side text includes seem not to be
> working as designed any longer on SCN, certainly not in the way
> that they have been used for the past several years on SCN's
> pages. They appear to still work partially, but something is
> wrong with how they are set up. For example, look at the text
> includes for the search box on any of the SCN community pages
> that haven't been redesigned lately. Instead of displaying the
> text for the search box (contained in the text of a centrally
> located include file), the Web server displays only the HTML
> tags for them:
> 
>    <!--#include virtual="/include/search.html"--> (or whatever)
> 
>    My guess is that some anti-social Operations person has
> silently disabled an essential part of the Apache server
> configuration that defines what kinds of server-side includes
> the Web server can interpret. That was a configuration setup
> that we depended on when designing the overall site a couple of
> years ago. In other words, some parts of the site now simply no
> longer function. It is disappointing to see this capability
> being lost, because it was a good way to avoid having to
> hand-edit code on each of hundreds of separate pages.
> 
> Rod Clark
> 
> > I would like to try out server side includes for my
> > community pages.  So, whenever changes to the footer
> > or header are needed I can edit one set of files for
> > the header and footer.
> > 
> > Are server side includes enabled?
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> Buy Stock for $4.
> No Minimums.
> FREE Money 2002.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/xYTolB/TM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> webeditor_discussion-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  6 11:17:24 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 11:17:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: AT&T Broadband
Message-ID: <20020406191724.84700.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>

I was wondering if anyone knew how much basic cable costs in Seattle. 

I got a headache running around on AT&T's website just trying to get basic
information.

Thought there was a simple package for under $20 a month, but from what I see
(finally) is that the lowest package is $33 a month!

Still, I do not think this is the basic-basic service, but can't find it.

(My last message wasn't intended for general consumption, but the headache-inducing
web site precluded me from deleting scn at scn from the cc field.)

Thanks,
Patrick

=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From design at eskimo.com  Sat Apr  6 17:28:13 2002
From: design at eskimo.com (Jim Loring)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 17:28:13 -0800
Subject: SCN: RE: AT&T Broadband
In-Reply-To: <20020406191724.84700.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AIEBKKBIGBPHLGFIAPMIMEJICFAA.design@eskimo.com>

Patrick -

Save yourself a lot of headaches and money - buy a good antenna for local
television and get a good VCR or DVD player. I think you'll be much happier
with the result.

Cheers! - Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of patrick
fisher
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 11:17 AM
To: scn at scn.org
Subject: SCN: AT&T Broadband


I was wondering if anyone knew how much basic cable costs in Seattle.

I got a headache running around on AT&T's website just trying to get basic
information.

Thought there was a simple package for under $20 a month, but from what I
see
(finally) is that the lowest package is $33 a month!

Still, I do not think this is the basic-basic service, but can't find it.

(My last message wasn't intended for general consumption, but the
headache-inducing
web site precluded me from deleting scn at scn from the cc field.)

Thanks,
Patrick

=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From scoth at scn.org  Sat Apr  6 19:03:22 2002
From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on SCN)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 19:03:22 -0800
Subject: SCN: Re: AT&T Broadband
References: <20020406191724.84700.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008201c1dde0$cadedae0$a78cc5ce@scoth.whidbey.com>

I'm with Jim's recommendation.  Where I am "basic cable" is $49/month from
Millenium (now bought by yet somebody else).  A good antenna from Radio
Shack is all I need, along with my VCR and DVD.  I don't get things like the
History Channel and A&E, but I have my monthly Discover, Scientific
American, National Geo, Readers' Digest, Mother Earth News and Texas Monthly
to make up the difference.  Add to that the PBS fodder (News Hour, SciAm
Frontiers, Nova, Frontline, Red Green, etc.) and who needs cable?

If you get a long-range antenna with motor from Radio Shack you can pick up
stations in Victoria, Vancouver (BC), Bellingham and, of course, Tacoma
(their PBS station rocks).  All that can be done for the price of a few
months of "basic cable".  What happens after 2006, of course, is another
matter (HDTV supplants NTSC-TV).


sh

--
Scot Harkins (KA5KDU)
Greenbank, WA, US
Phone: 360-678-5880
Email: scoth at bigfoot.com
URL <http://www.bigfoot.com/~scoth>
--

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrick fisher" <clariun at yahoo.com>
To: <scn at scn.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 11:17 AM
Subject: SCN: AT&T Broadband


> I was wondering if anyone knew how much basic cable costs in Seattle.
>
> I got a headache running around on AT&T's website just trying to get basic
> information.
...

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  6 21:09:08 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:09:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Re: AT&T Broadband
In-Reply-To: <008201c1dde0$cadedae0$a78cc5ce@scoth.whidbey.com>
Message-ID: <20020407050908.19050.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>

I've been informed that you can get basic cable for about $12/month. 25 or so
channels. But I'm not sure which channels those are. I'd like to get public access
channel and some of the other channels as well.

I have a good signal in Greenwood. Good enough for me and I rarely watch tv. I think
what prompted me was hearing about "Professor Hopkins" movie review site on public
access (found out about it on komoradio.com). I had watched him years ago with some
other guy. They had a video store over on 25th NE. Forget the name of it, but it was
the indirect genesis of Scarecrow Video.

I liked the offbeat shows on public access, but it has been years since I have had
cable.

Patrick

--- Scot Harkins on SCN <scoth at scn.org> wrote:
> I'm with Jim's recommendation.  Where I am "basic cable" is $49/month from
> Millenium (now bought by yet somebody else).  A good antenna from Radio
> Shack is all I need, along with my VCR and DVD.  I don't get things like the
> History Channel and A&E, but I have my monthly Discover, Scientific
> American, National Geo, Readers' Digest, Mother Earth News and Texas Monthly
> to make up the difference.  Add to that the PBS fodder (News Hour, SciAm
> Frontiers, Nova, Frontline, Red Green, etc.) and who needs cable?
> 
> If you get a long-range antenna with motor from Radio Shack you can pick up
> stations in Victoria, Vancouver (BC), Bellingham and, of course, Tacoma
> (their PBS station rocks).  All that can be done for the price of a few
> months of "basic cable".  What happens after 2006, of course, is another
> matter (HDTV supplants NTSC-TV).
> 
> 
> sh
> 
> --
> Scot Harkins (KA5KDU)
> Greenbank, WA, US
> Phone: 360-678-5880
> Email: scoth at bigfoot.com
> URL <http://www.bigfoot.com/~scoth>
> --
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "patrick fisher" <clariun at yahoo.com>
> To: <scn at scn.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 11:17 AM
> Subject: SCN: AT&T Broadband
> 
> 
> > I was wondering if anyone knew how much basic cable costs in Seattle.
> >
> > I got a headache running around on AT&T's website just trying to get basic
> > information.
> ...
> 


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  6 21:17:23 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:17:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: IP coordinator
Message-ID: <20020407051723.64619.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>

I'm proud to announce that SCN now has an IP coordinator. His name is Ty. 

Steve, Robert from registration, Ty and I met today to discuss the position, such as
what the tasks will be.

The IP coordinator will be the point person for the IPs, helping out new IPs if they
need help, especially helping out new IPs.

If you are not familiar with IP: It means Information Provider. They are the people
who register sites that are hosted on SCN, and are webmasters for those sites.

Patrick

=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  6 21:50:34 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:50:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Seattle services (was AT&T Broadband)
Message-ID: <20020407055034.72009.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, well, found a neat site that has all the cable communication rates in Seattle:

http://www.cityofseattle.net/cable/servicematrix.htm

Obviously, AT&T does not want you to know that you can get cable for under 12 bucks.
If not, it was terrible oversight on their part not to make it easy to find. I
couldn't find it!

Patrick

=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  6 21:56:54 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:56:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Seattle services (was AT&T Broadband)
In-Reply-To: <20020407055034.72009.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020407055654.16456.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com>

It must be mentioned that the rates were raised and are not reflected in this
matrix. The new rates are listed at http://www.cityofseattle.net/cable/new.htm.

According to the matrix, Tacoma users have good internet and cable rates.

Patrick

--- patrick fisher <clariun at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well, well, found a neat site that has all the cable communication rates in
> Seattle:
> 
> http://www.cityofseattle.net/cable/servicematrix.htm
> 
> Obviously, AT&T does not want you to know that you can get cable for under 12
> bucks.
> If not, it was terrible oversight on their part not to make it easy to find. I
> couldn't find it!
> 
> Patrick
> 
> =====
> Webmaster
> Seattle Community Network
> http://www.scn.org
> "Powering our communities with technology"
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  6 22:10:17 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 22:10:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: Update: Site redesign underway & a thanks
Message-ID: <20020407061017.57936.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>

I don't think I made it official, and if I have already, then I apologize:

The site redesign is underway. It should take me several long weekends to get it
done, and I'm shooting for a release date in about two months. Then we'll announce
when the site will officially be "turned on". 

We decided to have the current site available, to anyone who is interested, when the
new site goes up. It just won't be updated. Unless someone is interested???

Discus, the discussion software, is up and running, and will initially be available
to the topic editors for their communities, if the are so inclined.

I'd like to thank all of the SCN volunteers for all of their help to keep SCN
humming along and simply be a better SCN.

Thanks!
Patrick

=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From bn890 at scn.org  Sat Apr  6 22:44:52 2002
From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 22:44:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCN: AT&T Broadband
In-Reply-To: <20020406191724.84700.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020406224420.8906A-100000@scn>

Why do you need cable - is there really anything worthwhile to spend extra
bucks on?
Irene


On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone knew how much basic cable costs in Seattle. 
> 
> I got a headache running around on AT&T's website just trying to get basic
> information.
> 
> Thought there was a simple package for under $20 a month, but from what I see
> (finally) is that the lowest package is $33 a month!
> 
> Still, I do not think this is the basic-basic service, but can't find it.
> 
> (My last message wasn't intended for general consumption, but the headache-inducing
> web site precluded me from deleting scn at scn from the cc field.)
> 
> Thanks,
> Patrick
> 
> =====
> Webmaster
> Seattle Community Network
> http://www.scn.org
> "Powering our communities with technology"
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From scoth at scn.org  Sun Apr  7 10:32:12 2002
From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on SCN)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 10:32:12 -0700
Subject: SCN: Seattle services (was AT&T Broadband)
References: <20020407055654.16456.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002501c1de5a$2a362920$a78cc5ce@scoth.whidbey.com>

AT&T makes it hard to find because they want you to call, then they can hard
sell you on the "special deals" that run the bill up by bits and pieces.
"Hmmm...that's only a few $$$ more per month for that."  Then later
"hmmm...that's only a few $$$ more per month to add that."  Pretty soon your
bill is up in the stratosphere.  They also know it's harder for many folks
to say "no" to a human being.

Tacoma has their own city-wide fiber-optic network serving the city and its
citizens.  They got tired of waiting on the private companies to build out
the internet access (waiting for market forces, you know).  It's that very
network that put Tacoma on the map as a forward-looking city that didn't sit
on its hands waiting for AT&T or whoever to come through with high-speed
internet and digital cable services.


sh

--
Scot Harkins (KA5KDU)
Greenbank, WA, US
Phone: 360-678-5880
Email: scoth at bigfoot.com
URL <http://www.bigfoot.com/~scoth>
--

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrick fisher" <clariun at yahoo.com>
To: "scn" <scn at scn.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: SCN: Seattle services (was AT&T Broadband)


> It must be mentioned that the rates were raised and are not reflected in
this
> matrix. The new rates are listed at
http://www.cityofseattle.net/cable/new.htm.
>
> According to the matrix, Tacoma users have good internet and cable rates.
>
> Patrick


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  7 10:57:07 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 10:57:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Seattle services (was AT&T Broadband)
In-Reply-To: <002501c1de5a$2a362920$a78cc5ce@scoth.whidbey.com>
Message-ID: <20020407175707.20828.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>

Hmmm, I had a feeling that was the case. That is why I wanted to run it by the SCN
crowd to see if they knew. I didn't want to call.

So "Basic Basic" cable is about 12 bucks. But on their site they just have "Basic"
cable which is $33. Add tax to that and you are paying a minimum of $38 for cable to
just one TV.

They must price it like that because people are willing to pay it. Not me!

Patrick


--- Scot Harkins on SCN <scoth at scn.org> wrote:
> AT&T makes it hard to find because they want you to call, then they can hard
> sell you on the "special deals" that run the bill up by bits and pieces.
> "Hmmm...that's only a few $$$ more per month for that."  Then later
> "hmmm...that's only a few $$$ more per month to add that."  Pretty soon your
> bill is up in the stratosphere.  They also know it's harder for many folks
> to say "no" to a human being.
> 
> Tacoma has their own city-wide fiber-optic network serving the city and its
> citizens.  They got tired of waiting on the private companies to build out
> the internet access (waiting for market forces, you know).  It's that very
> network that put Tacoma on the map as a forward-looking city that didn't sit
> on its hands waiting for AT&T or whoever to come through with high-speed
> internet and digital cable services.
> 
> 
> sh
> 
> --
> Scot Harkins (KA5KDU)
> Greenbank, WA, US
> Phone: 360-678-5880
> Email: scoth at bigfoot.com
> URL <http://www.bigfoot.com/~scoth>
> --
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "patrick fisher" <clariun at yahoo.com>
> To: "scn" <scn at scn.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 10:56 PM
> Subject: Re: SCN: Seattle services (was AT&T Broadband)
> 
> 
> > It must be mentioned that the rates were raised and are not reflected in
> this
> > matrix. The new rates are listed at
> http://www.cityofseattle.net/cable/new.htm.
> >
> > According to the matrix, Tacoma users have good internet and cable rates.
> >
> > Patrick
> 
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From scoth at scn.org  Sun Apr  7 12:42:57 2002
From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on SCN)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 12:42:57 -0700
Subject: SCN: Seattle services (was AT&T Broadband)
References: <20020407175707.20828.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c1de6c$6cfc68c0$a78cc5ce@scoth.whidbey.com>

Actually, they price it that way because they don't want folks to use that
level of service.  They want everyone to be on digital and on the next
level, because the model actually gets them more revenue, plus they can sell
local commercials on more channels at a higher rate if they have more
subscribers.  At the basic level you're paying more for the service.  At the
higher levels your subscription gives them another potential viewer on more
channels so they can say "we have 100,000 subscribers to our higher-level
service" to advertisers, allowing them to charge more money, so they get
your fees and the advertising fees for more channels.

(Cable companies run local commercials on the national cable channels by
simply interrupting the signal and running their own signal (commercial).)

Digital cable is also cheaper for them to offer at this point; lower power
for signals for one thing.  Add the ability of digital to report how long
you view what channels and they have yet another handle with advertisers so
they can charge higher advertising rates.  Eventually, thanks to digital
cable tech, they'll even run custom commercials just to your TV based on
your viewing habits and demographics.  That'll mean the 55 year old in one
house watching the Discovery Channel will see one commercial while the 21
year old in another house watching the same channel will see another
commercial in the same given slot (at the same time).  That'll be the real
payoff in advertising since AT&T (and other cable companies so equipped)
will be able to tightly target ad dollars and thus charge premium rates.

The basic idea is that they make more money off of you _and_ advertisers
when you upgrade to higher levels of service.


sh

--
Scot Harkins (KA5KDU)
Greenbank, WA, US
Phone: 360-678-5880
Email: scoth at bigfoot.com
URL <http://www.bigfoot.com/~scoth>
--

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrick fisher" <clariun at yahoo.com>
To: "scn" <scn at scn.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: SCN: Seattle services (was AT&T Broadband)


> Hmmm, I had a feeling that was the case. That is why I wanted to run it by
the SCN
> crowd to see if they knew. I didn't want to call.
>
> So "Basic Basic" cable is about 12 bucks. But on their site they just have
"Basic"
> cable which is $33. Add tax to that and you are paying a minimum of $38
for cable to
> just one TV.
>
> They must price it like that because people are willing to pay it. Not me!
>
> Patrick


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  7 14:43:16 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 14:43:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Seattle services (was AT&T Broadband)
In-Reply-To: <000f01c1de6c$6cfc68c0$a78cc5ce@scoth.whidbey.com>
Message-ID: <20020407214316.26435.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com>

I think it was the state or Seattle city government that required the cable
companies to offer a service that would not be considered gouging. If this is the
case, it's too bad that the cable companies were not required to list this lower,
affordable rate on a place on their website.

I've looked and looked on their site and I could not find the $11.75 rate, only the
$33 rate.

Sound like a case of the cable companies following the letter of the law, but
breaking the spirit of the law. Sure, they have the affordable $11.75 rate, but good
luck in finding out about it!

Patrick

--- Scot Harkins on SCN <scoth at scn.org> wrote:
> Actually, they price it that way because they don't want folks to use that
> level of service.  They want everyone to be on digital and on the next
> level, because the model actually gets them more revenue, plus they can sell
> local commercials on more channels at a higher rate if they have more
> subscribers.  At the basic level you're paying more for the service.  At the
> higher levels your subscription gives them another potential viewer on more
> channels so they can say "we have 100,000 subscribers to our higher-level
> service" to advertisers, allowing them to charge more money, so they get
> your fees and the advertising fees for more channels.
> 
> (Cable companies run local commercials on the national cable channels by
> simply interrupting the signal and running their own signal (commercial).)
> 
> Digital cable is also cheaper for them to offer at this point; lower power
> for signals for one thing.  Add the ability of digital to report how long
> you view what channels and they have yet another handle with advertisers so
> they can charge higher advertising rates.  Eventually, thanks to digital
> cable tech, they'll even run custom commercials just to your TV based on
> your viewing habits and demographics.  That'll mean the 55 year old in one
> house watching the Discovery Channel will see one commercial while the 21
> year old in another house watching the same channel will see another
> commercial in the same given slot (at the same time).  That'll be the real
> payoff in advertising since AT&T (and other cable companies so equipped)
> will be able to tightly target ad dollars and thus charge premium rates.
> 
> The basic idea is that they make more money off of you _and_ advertisers
> when you upgrade to higher levels of service.
> 
> 
> sh
> 
> --
> Scot Harkins (KA5KDU)
> Greenbank, WA, US
> Phone: 360-678-5880
> Email: scoth at bigfoot.com
> URL <http://www.bigfoot.com/~scoth>
> --
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "patrick fisher" <clariun at yahoo.com>
> To: "scn" <scn at scn.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 10:57 AM
> Subject: Re: SCN: Seattle services (was AT&T Broadband)
> 
> 
> > Hmmm, I had a feeling that was the case. That is why I wanted to run it by
> the SCN
> > crowd to see if they knew. I didn't want to call.
> >
> > So "Basic Basic" cable is about 12 bucks. But on their site they just have
> "Basic"
> > cable which is $33. Add tax to that and you are paying a minimum of $38
> for cable to
> > just one TV.
> >
> > They must price it like that because people are willing to pay it. Not me!
> >
> > Patrick
> 
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From bn890 at scn.org  Sun Apr  7 19:53:02 2002
From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 19:53:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Seattle services (was AT&T Broadband)
In-Reply-To: <20020407175707.20828.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020407195242.9943B-100000@scn>

LIke I said, I am CHEEEEEP!
Irene


On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:

> Hmmm, I had a feeling that was the case. That is why I wanted to run it by the SCN
> crowd to see if they knew. I didn't want to call.
> 
> So "Basic Basic" cable is about 12 bucks. But on their site they just have "Basic"
> cable which is $33. Add tax to that and you are paying a minimum of $38 for cable to
> just one TV.
> 
> They must price it like that because people are willing to pay it. Not me!
> 
> Patrick
> 
> 
> --- Scot Harkins on SCN <scoth at scn.org> wrote:
> > AT&T makes it hard to find because they want you to call, then they can hard
> > sell you on the "special deals" that run the bill up by bits and pieces.
> > "Hmmm...that's only a few $$$ more per month for that."  Then later
> > "hmmm...that's only a few $$$ more per month to add that."  Pretty soon your
> > bill is up in the stratosphere.  They also know it's harder for many folks
> > to say "no" to a human being.
> > 
> > Tacoma has their own city-wide fiber-optic network serving the city and its
> > citizens.  They got tired of waiting on the private companies to build out
> > the internet access (waiting for market forces, you know).  It's that very
> > network that put Tacoma on the map as a forward-looking city that didn't sit
> > on its hands waiting for AT&T or whoever to come through with high-speed
> > internet and digital cable services.
> > 
> > 
> > sh
> > 
> > --
> > Scot Harkins (KA5KDU)
> > Greenbank, WA, US
> > Phone: 360-678-5880
> > Email: scoth at bigfoot.com
> > URL <http://www.bigfoot.com/~scoth>
> > --
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "patrick fisher" <clariun at yahoo.com>
> > To: "scn" <scn at scn.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 10:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: SCN: Seattle services (was AT&T Broadband)
> > 
> > 
> > > It must be mentioned that the rates were raised and are not reflected in
> > this
> > > matrix. The new rates are listed at
> > http://www.cityofseattle.net/cable/new.htm.
> > >
> > > According to the matrix, Tacoma users have good internet and cable rates.
> > >
> > > Patrick
> > 
> > 
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 
> 
> =====
> Webmaster
> Seattle Community Network
> http://www.scn.org
> "Powering our communities with technology"
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From steve at advocate.net  Sun Apr  7 21:48:12 2002
From: steve at advocate.net (Steve)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 21:48:12 -0700
Subject: SCN: Race and cyberspace
Message-ID: <3CB0BE9C.19193.198A0F5@localhost>

x-no-archive: yes

===================


by Henry Jenkins, director, Program in Comparative Media  
Studies, MIT

(Technology Review)---"In Cyberspace, nobody knows your race 
unless you tell them. Do you tell?” 

Several years ago, I put this slogan on a poster advertising an MIT-
hosted public forum about race and digital space. The resulting 
controversy was an eyeopener. Like many white liberals, I had 
viewed the absence of explicit racial markers in cyberspace with 
some optimism - seeing the emerging “virtual communities” as 
perhaps our best hope ever of achieving a truly color-blind society. 
 
But many of the forum’s minority participants - both panelists and 
audience members - didn’t experience cyberspace as a place 
where nobody cared about race. Often, they’d found that people 
simply assumed all participants in an online discussion were white 
unless they identified themselves otherwise. 

One Asian American talked of having a white online acquaintance 
e-mail him a racist joke, which he would never have sent if he had 
known the recipient’s race. Perhaps covering up for his own 
embarrassment, the white acquaintance had accused the Asian-
American man of “trying to pass as white.” 

Even when more than one minority was present in a chat room, the 
forum participants said, they didn’t recognize each other as such, 
leaving each feeling stranded in a segregated neighborhood. If 
they sought to correct ignorant misperceptions in online 
discussions, they were accused of “bringing race into the 
conversation.” Such missteps were usually not the product of overt 
racism. Rather, they reflected the white participants’ obliviousness 
about operating in a multiracial context.  

Perhaps when early white Netizens were arguing that cyberspace 
was "color-blind," what they really meant was that they desperately 
wanted a place where they didn’t have to think about, look at or 
talk about racial differences. 

Unfortunately, none of us knows how to live in a race-free society. 
As Harvard University law professor Lani Guinier explains, “We 
don’t live next door to each other. We don’t go to school together. 
We don’t even watch the same television shows.” 

Computers may break down some of the hold of traditional 
geography on patterns of communication, but we won’t overcome 
that history of segregation by simply wishing it away. And as the 
Web culture becomes more globalized, it will only get more 
complicated.  

So far, these topics have entered the national conversation 
through talk about the so-called digital divide, the gap between 
white and minority, rich and poor, in computer access and use. 
Such talk often assumes that if we combat the technological and 
economic problems of access, cyberspace will become more 
democratic. 

I do hope governmental and corporate resources are brought to 
bear on the problem, but equal access is not the same as equal 
participation. Giving everybody broadband is a problem of a very 
different order than broadening our minds.  

When art museums lower economic barriers, offering free or 
reduced admission, they still attract mostly white upper-middle-
class patrons; many lower-income and minority citizens don’t feel 
entitled to attend. Where museums have successfully diversified 
their communities, it has been through educational outreach and 
collaboration with minority communities. Efforts to bridge the digital 
divide must internalize these lessons.  

Some have argued that class, rather than race, may be the 
strongest indicator of who has access - though we need to 
recognize that in a society where the average black family income 
is roughly half that of the average white family income, race and 
class are not easily separable. It is hard to imagine universal 
computer literacy in a country that has yet to ensure that all 
citizens can read and write - and again, there is a strong 
correlation between race, class and literacy rates.  

There are some hopeful signs that racially based gaps in access 
are closing: for example, Hispanic Americans are the fastest-
growing population online. As minority groups have developed 
more economic clout, cyberspace has started to seem less racially 
segregated. 

Yet this may only take us so far. Bridging the digital divide needs 
to mean more than allowing corporations access to new markets; it 
needs to include empowering minority citizens to participate in 
online policy debates.  

Most digital-divide rhetoric depicts a world where undereducated, 
undermotivated and underemployed minorities are competing 
against technologically sophisticated whites. Many scholars and 
activists contend that such talk may intensify the cultural barriers to 
full participation and thus become a self-fulfilling prophecy. They 
argue that we need to be focusing on success stories, examining 
those projects - whether activist, entrepreneurial or educational in 
origin - that have significantly increased access, visibility and 
participation within minority communities. Our children need to 
know about the ways that minorities have been technological 
innovators rather than seeing them as constantly lagging behind.  

In the end, we will need to give up any lingering fantasies of a 
color-blind Web and focus on building a space where we 
recognize, discuss and celebrate racial and cultural diversity. To 
achieve that goal, all of us - white folks and people of color - will 
have to shed the defensiveness that surrounds the topic of race. 

Many are experimenting with new ground rules and modes of 
communication that enable us to explore the potential of digital 
technology to bring together people who would historically have 
never had contact and encourage them to compare notes, test 
assumptions and overcome ignorance and stereotyping. Out of 
such conversations might come practical approaches for 
combating racism, not only online, but off.  


Copyright 2002 Technology Review, Inc.





* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From NEWS at synersource.com  Mon Apr  8 07:49:40 2002
From: NEWS at synersource.com (Karen Mercer)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 10:49:40 -0400
Subject: SCN: Register to Win Update!
Message-ID: <3B6729BFE3F4D743B1285C8B90B664A6090C37@synaspnode1.SynASPDomain>

Thank you for visiting our web site at SynerSource.com and registering
to Win!  I hope you had the opportunity to view our new multimedia
presentations.  This exciting new technology allows me to offer a risk
free trial subscription for your facility at absolutely no cost.  Just
dedicate a member of your staff and a PC to see your secured data on the
web in days instead of months or years.

Click on the link below to review our multimedia presentations or
forward the link to a friend. This presentation contains many
illustrations of data and how it can be viewed on the web.  Images,
graphs, and text can be displayed giving physicians maximum information
from a single source.

          http://www.synersource.com/demo?i=9197

To request a free trial subscription to a truly interactive
internet-based system, contact Karen Mercer(
karen.mercer at synersource.com ) at 1-800-843-4811.  Visit our web site at
http://www.synersource.com to view the multimedia presentation.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  8 12:09:39 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 12:09:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Freeware Image Editing Tools
Message-ID: <20020408190939.37929.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com>

I'm a Mac user, however I want to use my PC at work, during lunch, to edit photos
from my digital camera. And to send the photos to picture reproduction companies
that are online. 

Up until now I have mainly used Agfa's Photowise software to crop and adjust images.
It's a simple program with buttons to auto-adjust images, from auto-fix to cropping,
to resizing. A million miles from Photoshop: which is where I want to stay.

Is there a similar program in the Windows world? I checked Agfa's site and can't
find the Windows version of Photowise there.

Yes, I've tried Microsoft's photo editing software and I really don't care for it.
Why is it that MS makes fantastic Macintosh products, yet seems to blow it on the PC
side? Is that not ironic? (Not trying to start a flame war here, just my personal
feelings from daily interaction and observations)

Thanks,
Patrick



=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From alboss at scn.org  Mon Apr  8 16:44:09 2002
From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss)
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 16:44:09 -0700
Subject: SCN: Freeware Image Editing Tools
References: <20020408190939.37929.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CB22B49.3060106@scn.org>

> ...A million miles from Photoshop: which is where I want to stay.

Is that because of functionality or price?

There's a Windows version of the venerable general public license image 
editing software with the politically incorrect name, GIMP (Gnu Image 
Manipulation Program, I think) at http://www.gimp.org/. They've even got 
some new Windows installers that automatically add in the gif editing 
software, for those people who don't live in nations that honor Unisys' 
patent on gifs. So, don't download that unless you're one of them 
law-breakers...

GIMP, sadly, has not been ported to the Mac, but since you've already 
got Mac software you like, this should do it for the Windows side. It 
may be, however, a little more powerful than you wanted, if that's what 
you meant by staying a million miles from Photoshop. On the other hand, 
I found the GIMP help files to be helpful--what a concept!

Best,

Al

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  8 18:51:04 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 18:51:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Freeware Image Editing Tools
In-Reply-To: <3CB22B49.3060106@scn.org>
Message-ID: <20020409015104.42296.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>

Actually, I just need something simple for web pictures: resize, crop, auto-adjust
color, and "save as" at different resolutions. Photoshop is overkill. Photoshop
light is overkill.

Actually, Gimp is on the Mac, if you have OS X: Gimp originated on Linux and it was
rather easily ported over to Mac OS X which is Unix. You can have a gander at
www.macgimp.com.

Which is nice, because a lot of Linux apps are being modified to run on Mac OSX. And
Unix apps run well in the shell portion of OS X.

Patrick


--- Al Boss <alboss at scn.org> wrote:
> > ...A million miles from Photoshop: which is where I want to stay.
> 
> Is that because of functionality or price?
> 
> There's a Windows version of the venerable general public license image 
> editing software with the politically incorrect name, GIMP (Gnu Image 
> Manipulation Program, I think) at http://www.gimp.org/. They've even got 
> some new Windows installers that automatically add in the gif editing 
> software, for those people who don't live in nations that honor Unisys' 
> patent on gifs. So, don't download that unless you're one of them 
> law-breakers...
> 
> GIMP, sadly, has not been ported to the Mac, but since you've already 
> got Mac software you like, this should do it for the Windows side. It 
> may be, however, a little more powerful than you wanted, if that's what 
> you meant by staying a million miles from Photoshop. On the other hand, 
> I found the GIMP help files to be helpful--what a concept!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Al
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From douglas  Tue Apr  9 10:27:57 2002
From: douglas (Doug Schuler)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 10:27:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Shaping the Network Society -- Our turn! 
Message-ID: <200204091727.KAA10426@scn.org>


/// Please forward to appropriate people and lists.  Thank you!  /////

Shaping the Network Society: 
      Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change
          http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02
      University of Washington HUB, Seattle, May 16-19, 2002 


  Save money and register before April 21! 


Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure 
   is being shaped today --

     But by whom and to what ends? 

If you believe that our current communication systems aren't meeting
community and civic needs you're not alone!  Millions of people from 
around the world are asking these questions -- 

     Will communication systems meet the needs of all people?
     Will they help people address current and future issues?
     Will they promote democracy, social justice, a healthy 
       environment? 

     Will appropriate research be conducted?
     Will equitable policies be enacted?

Millions of people throughout the world are working to create
systems which meet humankind's crucial needs.

Join us at CPSR's eighth biannual "Directions and Implications of 
Advanced Computing" (DIAC) symposium to address these critical 
questions, build our community and develop plans for action.

A partial list of confirmed speakers includes: 

   Saskia Sassen, University of Chicago professor and author.
      "A New Politics of Places on Global Networks"
   Naaperori Shirampari Ashenika Mino, Ashanika Indigenous 
      community, Peru
   Stevan Harnad, Professor of Cognitive Science, University of 
      Southampton, "Open Research Access for an Open Society"
   Abdul Alkalimat, chair African American Studies, University of Toledo
   Stuart Cowan, Conservation Economy Research Director, Ecotrust
   Myoung-joon Kim, Labor & Media Activist, Seoul, Korea
   DeeDee Halleck, University of California at San Diego, media activist
   Phil Bereano, University of Washington, privacy and biotech activist
   Gilson Schwartz, Knowledge City Sao Paulo, Brazil
   Sheri Herndon, Independent Media Center, Seattle
   Raul Nakasone, The Evergreen State College, Olympia, WA
   Sergei Stafeev, Centre of Community Networking and Information Policy 
      Studies, St. Petersburg, Russia

In addition to distinguished guests we plan to welcome 
500 researchers, practitioners, activists, journalists, educators, 
artists, policy-makers and citizens from around the world.

A variety of events are planned ranging from invited speakers, panel
discussions, and pattern presentations to a "Lakes, Locks, and Lively" 
reception cruise and informal working sessions -- both planned and 
spontaneous.  We are also planning open space sessions devoted to the 
development of a new "pattern language" that describes our work (see the 
postscript below). 

Symposium topics will likely include the digital divide, human rights 
and privacy, open content research, pattern language development, media
activism, community networks, wireless community networking, developing 
a civil society charter for the UN World Summit on the Information 
Society, independent media centers, virtual communities and online 
activism, cross-border collaborations, and MORE! And, as with previous 
DIAC symposia, we'll do our best to bring in some surprises as well...

Join us this May in Seattle for this exciting and important event! 

Shaping the Network Society: 
      Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change
          http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02

        Save money and register by April 20! 

Sponsored by:  

   Public Sphere Project of Computer Professionals for 
     Social Responsibility (CPSR) 

   National Communication Association Task Force on the 
     Digital Divide

For more information, contact symposium coordinator
Doug Schuler, douglas at scn.org

PS. Our ongoing Pattern Language project to capture and 
publicize our collective wisdom is attracting worldwide 
attention.  Whether or not you attend the symposium, please 
consider adding your pattern to our online pattern system 
(http://diac.cpsr.org/cgi-bin/diac02/pattern.cgi) which 
now includes over 160 patterns. The pattern language will 
only be as good as the patterns you submit! 


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From steve at advocate.net  Tue Apr  9 14:24:41 2002
From: steve at advocate.net (Steve)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 14:24:41 -0700
Subject: SCN: Intellectual property
Message-ID: <3CB2F9A9.6461.2E03AE9@localhost>

x-no-archive: yes

===================


(Patti Waldmeir, Financial Times UK)---Technology always outruns 
the law, but when the lawmakers begin to catch up, watch out.  

For years, US lawmakers sat quietly by as the internet redefined 
the very notion of property. They watched as online music pirates 
rendered private property meaningless by fostering a culture of 
theft. They failed to defend the social bargain that fosters 
creativity: that creators must be allowed to profit from their output 
or they will stop creating.  

Now those who make the laws, in the US Congress and the courts, 
seem set on restoring the supremacy of property. They risk 
overdoing it.  

Legislation has been introduced in the Senate to require that new 
hardware and software, in compact disc players, television sets 
and computers, make it impossible to copy anything without 
authorisation. Lawmakers want to force technology to switch sides: 
to serve property, not piracy. If they succeed, they could vastly 
expand the rights of copyright owners, not just restore what was 
lost.  

The new legislation could well outlaw not just illegal theft but 
perfectly legal pilfering. US law has long allowed limited "fair use" 
of copyrighted material without permission or payment, in the 
interests of promoting education, creativity and free speech. 
Legislators need to think twice before robbing the public domain 
just to pay the content owners.  

If Congress decides in the end to alter radically the balance 
between public and private control of ideas, at least there will have 
been publicised debate on the matter.  

At the same time and much more quietly, a federal appeals court in 
California is considering a decision that could disrupt this balance 
almost as dramatically.  

The ninth circuit US court of appeals is being lobbied to reconsider 
a dangerous if little noticed decision handed down in February. 
The case involves the quintessential web practice of linking. Critics 
say it could turn almost every web link into an act of copyright 
infringement, threatening the unique value of the web as a tool of 
knowledge by preventing people from finding their way around it.  

The case, Kelly v Arriba Soft Corp, involves a "visual search 
engine" located at www.ditto.com. Ditto (formerly known as Arriba) 
trawls the web to produce "thumbnail" images of millions of 
photographs including those of Les Kelly, a photographer of the 
American West, who sued them for reproducing miniatures of his 
images without his permission, and using them to link to his 
original photos.  

A three-judge panel of the appeals court rebuffed Kelly on his 
thumbnail claim, ruling that it was legal "fair use" for Ditto to display 
the tiny images.  

But in a much more far-reaching ruling, the court said Ditto could 
not also send users to the original photo through a link. It was the 
first time an appellate court had ruled on the issue of "in-line 
linking" or "framing", the practice followed by many search engines 
of providing a link that opens a browser window displaying material 
from another website.  

Digital freedom fighters like the Electronic Frontier Foundation say 
the ruling "puts copyright law and free expression on a collision 
course". Search engines, textual as well as visual, say they cannot 
do business in a world where they cannot link without permission.  

In a friend-of-the-court brief to lobby for a rehearing of the case, 
the EFF quotes a different federal court defending links as a 
cultural practice protected by the constitution.  

"Links are what unify the world wide web into a single body of 
knowledge, and what makes the web unique. They often are used 
in ways that do a great deal to promote the free exchange of ideas 
and information that is a central value of our nation," a New York 
court wrote in another landmark copyright case.  

"Anything that would impose strict liability on a website operator for 
the entire contents of any website to which the operator linked 
therefore would raise grave constitutional concerns, as website 
operators would be inhibited from linking for fear of exposure to 
liability," that court concluded.  

The issue in that case was different, involving liability for illegal 
content on a linked site. In the Ditto case, the linked content is not 
illegal, it just does not belong to Ditto. The court found that Ditto 
violated Kelly's right to display his works publicly by displaying 
them for him.  

Ditto did not sell his pictures or even reproduce them directly on its 
site. They helped people find Kelly's pictures and, arguably, 
increased the market for his works.  

If Ditto was wrong, so is everyone else who links, says the EFF. In 
its brief it argues that there is "no principled basis in copyright law 
that would distinguish Ditto's activity from any link on the web".  

The EFF says the court misunderstood the technology involved. If 
it grasped it properly it would have let Ditto off the hook, since "at 
all times it is Kelly who is transmitting his works to end-users, and 
thus Kelly who is publicly displaying his own images. Ditto's only 
transmission is a URL, an address for the location on Kelly's 
website where the image may be fetched by an interested viewer."  

If the court of appeals refuses to reconsider, the effect will be, 
once again, to expand the rights of intellectual property owners at 
the expense of the public and the cause of human knowledge.  

Technology has undoubtedly changed our ability to access the 
creative output of others, but it has done nothing to alter our right 
to that access. We have no right to steal the copyrighted material 
of others but we do have a limited right to sample, or view, or even 
borrow it. Technology does not alter rights and values: it just 
challenges us to find new ways to protect them.  


Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2002





* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at scn.org  Tue Apr  9 19:57:13 2002
From: clariun at scn.org (Patrick Fisher)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 19:57:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020409195226.19950A-100000@scn>

I can't believe this:

Drugs and Terror: Understanding the Link and the Impact on America 

"It's so important for Americans to know that the traffic in drugs
finances the work of terror, sustaining terrorists, that terrorists use
drug profits to fund their cells to commit acts of murder. If you quit
drugs, you join the fight against terror in America."
President George W. Bush 

There is an undeniable link between acts of terror and illicit drugs. Law
enforcement officials around the world have long recognized this close
connection, but a changing world and recent events have made this link
more relevant in the daily lives of all Americans. The bottom line is
simple: terror and drug groups are linked in a mutually-beneficial
relationship by money, tactics, geography and politics. Americans must
understand that our individual choices about illicit drug use have the
power to support or undermine our nation's war on terrorism.
 
http://www.theantidrug.com/drugs_terror/understanding_impact.html

There is always some kind of link to anything. Is someone who is hooked
and loaded on heroin really going to go to this site and get real
patriotic and quit?

It's a stretch.
 Patrick
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at scn.org  Tue Apr  9 19:58:34 2002
From: clariun at scn.org (Patrick Fisher)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 19:58:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Ken Applegate
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020409195725.19950B-100000@scn>


I've been in correspondence with Clark Humphrey of The Stranger. He is
going to do a bit on Ken Applegate for The Stranger obits.

Patrick
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jmabel at speakeasy.org  Wed Apr 10 00:07:58 2002
From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 00:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020409195226.19950A-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204092355180.26568-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>

Well, W. should know. After all, his dad was CIA, and whowhas a greater  cord of 
financing terror with drug money. Sure the two can be related: the CIA aren't 
the only people who understand that selling drugs is a grrat way to finance oer 
illicit activity. Not that all drug sales are terror-related or vice versa, but 
illicit activities tend to cluster - just like interlocking directorates of 
corporations!

Years ago I had a (rather druggie) friend who had bumper stickers made up that 
said "Stop contra aid: boycott cocaine".

I don't advocate (or particularly oppose) drug use but much as I would recommend 
buying locally grown organic produce, I would recommend that if you are going to 
buy drugs, stick to locally grown organic dope. Or grow your own.  Responsible 
consumerism applies just as much when you are living outside the law. And 
there's simply no such thing as "good folks" producing Heroin or cocaine. If you 
are buying that shit, it's just a question of which evils you are supporting, 
and you'll probably never know.

--------------------
Joe Mabel

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Patrick Fisher wrote:

> I can't believe this:
> 
> Drugs and Terror: Understanding the Link and the Impact on America 
> 
> "It's so important for Americans to know that the traffic in drugs
> finances the work of terror, sustaining terrorists, that terrorists use
> drug profits to fund their cells to commit acts of murder. If you quit
> drugs, you join the fight against terror in America."
> President George W. Bush 
> 
> There is an undeniable link between acts of terror and illicit drugs. Law
> enforcement officials around the world have long recognized this close
> connection, but a changing world and recent events have made this link
> more relevant in the daily lives of all Americans. The bottom line is
> simple: terror and drug groups are linked in a mutually-beneficial
> relationship by money, tactics, geography and politics. Americans must
> understand that our individual choices about illicit drug use have the
> power to support or undermine our nation's war on terrorism.
>  
> http://www.theantidrug.com/drugs_terror/understanding_impact.html
> 
> There is always some kind of link to anything. Is someone who is hooked
> and loaded on heroin really going to go to this site and get real
> patriotic and quit?
> 
> It's a stretch.
>  Patrick
> Webmaster
> Seattle Community Network
> http://www.scn.org
> "Powering our communities with technology"
> 
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From douglas  Wed Apr 10 11:13:08 2002
From: douglas (Doug Schuler)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 11:13:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: DIAC-02 volunteer meeting
Message-ID: <200204101813.LAA24940@scn.org>


Monday -- April 15, 2002; 3:30 pm
DIAC-02 volunteer meeting
Cafe Allegro (in University District)
(4214 University Way N.E.) in the back room

The conference is about one month away...

See you there!

-- Doug

PS.  If you are looking for volunteer opportunities please
contact Nicole -- nicole at thatsnice.org

   ******************************************************************
   *     SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY                                *
   *          Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change        *
   *                  http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02        *
   * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure        *
   *   is being shaped today.                                       *
   *                              But by whom and to what ends?     *
   * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org                                *
   ******************************************************************
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 10 13:34:19 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:34:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204092355180.26568-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <20020410203419.10898.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>

Then it must be treason to be a junkie.

P


--- Joe Mabel <jmabel at speakeasy.org> wrote:
> Well, W. should know. After all, his dad was CIA, and whowhas a greater  cord of 
> financing terror with drug money. Sure the two can be related: the CIA aren't 
> the only people who understand that selling drugs is a grrat way to finance oer 
> illicit activity. Not that all drug sales are terror-related or vice versa, but 
> illicit activities tend to cluster - just like interlocking directorates of 
> corporations!
> 
> Years ago I had a (rather druggie) friend who had bumper stickers made up that 
> said "Stop contra aid: boycott cocaine".
> 
> I don't advocate (or particularly oppose) drug use but much as I would recommend 
> buying locally grown organic produce, I would recommend that if you are going to 
> buy drugs, stick to locally grown organic dope. Or grow your own.  Responsible 
> consumerism applies just as much when you are living outside the law. And 
> there's simply no such thing as "good folks" producing Heroin or cocaine. If you 
> are buying that shit, it's just a question of which evils you are supporting, 
> and you'll probably never know.
> 
> --------------------
> Joe Mabel
> 
> On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Patrick Fisher wrote:
> 
> > I can't believe this:
> > 
> > Drugs and Terror: Understanding the Link and the Impact on America 
> > 
> > "It's so important for Americans to know that the traffic in drugs
> > finances the work of terror, sustaining terrorists, that terrorists use
> > drug profits to fund their cells to commit acts of murder. If you quit
> > drugs, you join the fight against terror in America."
> > President George W. Bush 
> > 
> > There is an undeniable link between acts of terror and illicit drugs. Law
> > enforcement officials around the world have long recognized this close
> > connection, but a changing world and recent events have made this link
> > more relevant in the daily lives of all Americans. The bottom line is
> > simple: terror and drug groups are linked in a mutually-beneficial
> > relationship by money, tactics, geography and politics. Americans must
> > understand that our individual choices about illicit drug use have the
> > power to support or undermine our nation's war on terrorism.
> >  
> > http://www.theantidrug.com/drugs_terror/understanding_impact.html
> > 
> > There is always some kind of link to anything. Is someone who is hooked
> > and loaded on heroin really going to go to this site and get real
> > patriotic and quit?
> > 
> > It's a stretch.
> >  Patrick
> > Webmaster
> > Seattle Community Network
> > http://www.scn.org
> > "Powering our communities with technology"
> > 
> > 
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > 
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From donlogs at cablespeed.com  Wed Apr 10 18:55:10 2002
From: donlogs at cablespeed.com (Don Logsdon)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 18:55:10 -0700
Subject: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism
References: <20020410203419.10898.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1e0fb$ea2e4ac0$f3ccff40@cablespeed.com>



What this all means that it is imperative that the new Homeland security
people  must
provide immediate and comprehensive drug treatment to any person who is
ready for it.

Don

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 10 20:05:58 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:05:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <000a01c1e0fb$ea2e4ac0$f3ccff40@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <20020411030558.3440.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>

I thought long prison sentences was the answer to all of our problems.

Patrick

--- Don Logsdon <donlogs at cablespeed.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> What this all means that it is imperative that the new Homeland security
> people  must
> provide immediate and comprehensive drug treatment to any person who is
> ready for it.
> 
> Don
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jw4 at scn.org  Wed Apr 10 21:56:53 2002
From: jw4 at scn.org (Joel Ware IV)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 21:56:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <20020411030558.3440.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020410215524.22243A-100000@scn>

Well, I think that our State Legislature made some progress in 
that area this session -- it's a start.

-Joel.

--


On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:

> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:05:58 -0700 (PDT)
> From: patrick fisher <clariun at yahoo.com>
> To: SCN Supporters <scn at scn.org>
> Subject: Re: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism
> 
> I thought long prison sentences was the answer to all of our problems.
> 
> Patrick
> 
> --- Don Logsdon <donlogs at cablespeed.com> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > What this all means that it is imperative that the new Homeland security
> > people  must
> > provide immediate and comprehensive drug treatment to any person who is
> > ready for it.
> > 
> > Don
> > 
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 
> 
> =====
> Webmaster
> Seattle Community Network
> http://www.scn.org
> "Powering our communities with technology"
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

Joel Ware, IV           jw4 at scn.org
Volunteer Coordinator Emeritus, Member of Governance, HR, Ops, Board

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jmabel at speakeasy.org  Wed Apr 10 22:43:48 2002
From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:43:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <20020410203419.10898.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204102228460.27885-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>

Don't be silly. Fundamentally, a junkie is just another victim, but surely you 
don't think someone is out there doing good works with the money derived from 
the heroin trade, do you? Indeed, quite apropos, Afghanistan is one of the 
world's leading producers of raw opium (the so-called Northern Alliance 
probably being even more opium-friendly than the unlamented Taliban). From 
there, as it is refined and before it makes it to the veins of seef-destructive 
Ammricans, it most likely passes through the hands such lovely folks as the 
Chinese Triads.

This is not particularly the nature of drugs: it's the nature of valuable black 
market commodities. In Africa, terrorists generally finance themselves on 
diamonds (think the recently deceased Jonas Savimbi, or for that matter any of 
the so-called governments of the Congn/Zaire). 

I realize that the fact that Bush says something decreases the probablity 
that it is true, but in this case I believe he is right. Of course, he would 
never admit that prime examples of the drug/terror connection are cocaine in the 
US support of the Nicaraguan contras of the Eighties or the network of 
"anit-communist" ex-Kuomintang generals (and their heirs) who still function as 
warlords in the "Golden Triangle" of Indochina.

--------------------
Joe Mabel

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:

> Then it must be treason to be a junkie.
> 
> P
> 
> 
> --- Joe Mabel <jmabel at speakeasy.org> wrote:
> > Well, W. should know. After all, his dad was CIA, and whowhas a greater  cord of 
> > financing terror with drug money. Sure the two can be related: the CIA aren't 
> > the only people who understand that selling drugs is a grrat way to finance oer 
> > illicit activity. Not that all drug sales are terror-related or vice versa, but 
> > illicit activities tend to cluster - just like interlocking directorates of 
> > corporations!
> > 
> > Years ago I had a (rather druggie) friend who had bumper stickers made up that 
> > said "Stop contra aid: boycott cocaine".
> > 
> > I don't advocate (or particularly oppose) drug use but much as I would recommend 
> > buying locally grown organic produce, I would recommend that if you are going to 
> > buy drugs, stick to locally grown organic dope. Or grow your own.  Responsible 
> > consumerism applies just as much when you are living outside the law. And 
> > there's simply no such thing as "good folks" producing Heroin or cocaine. If you 
> > are buying that shit, it's just a question of which evils you are supporting, 
> > and you'll probably never know.
> > 
> > --------------------
> > Joe Mabel
> > 
> > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Patrick Fisher wrote:
> > 
> > > I can't believe this:
> > > 
> > > Drugs and Terror: Understanding the Link and the Impact on America 
> > > 
> > > "It's so important for Americans to know that the traffic in drugs
> > > finances the work of terror, sustaining terrorists, that terrorists use
> > > drug profits to fund their cells to commit acts of murder. If you quit
> > > drugs, you join the fight against terror in America."
> > > President George W. Bush 
> > > 
> > > There is an undeniable link between acts of terror and illicit drugs. Law
> > > enforcement officials around the world have long recognized this close
> > > connection, but a changing world and recent events have made this link
> > > more relevant in the daily lives of all Americans. The bottom line is
> > > simple: terror and drug groups are linked in a mutually-beneficial
> > > relationship by money, tactics, geography and politics. Americans must
> > > understand that our individual choices about illicit drug use have the
> > > power to support or undermine our nation's war on terrorism.
> > >  
> > > http://www.theantidrug.com/drugs_terror/understanding_impact.html
> > > 
> > > There is always some kind of link to anything. Is someone who is hooked
> > > and loaded on heroin really going to go to this site and get real
> > > patriotic and quit?
> > > 
> > > It's a stretch.
> > >  Patrick
> > > Webmaster
> > > Seattle Community Network
> > > http://www.scn.org
> > > "Powering our communities with technology"
> > > 
> > > 
> > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > > unsubscribe scn
> > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > > 
> > 
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 
> 
> =====
> Webmaster
> Seattle Community Network
> http://www.scn.org
> "Powering our communities with technology"
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jj at scn.org  Wed Apr 10 23:32:00 2002
From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:32:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Correlation between toilet-paper and terrorism!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204102228460.27885-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020410232210.24645E-100000@scn>

But surely you all already know this, from all the pictures in the
newspapers when the federales raided that store down in the Rainier Valley
and carted off all the toilet paper so it wouldn't get into the hands of
terrorists.  Another heroic blow against terrorism!

=== JJ =============================================================


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From steve at advocate.net  Thu Apr 11 08:02:51 2002
From: steve at advocate.net (Steve)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:02:51 -0700
Subject: SCN: Privacy
Message-ID: <3CB5432B.28852.6FF16A4@localhost>

x-no-archive: yes

===================


(Saul Hansell, NY Times, excerpts)---Pressed for profits, Internet 
companies are increasingly selling access to their users' postal 
mail addresses and telephone numbers, in addition to flooding 
their e-mail boxes with junk mail.  

Yahoo...just changed its privacy policy to make it clear that it has 
the right to send mail and make sales calls to tens of millions of its 
registered users. And it has given itself permission to send users e-
mail marketing messages on behalf of its own growing family of 
services, even if those users had previously asked not to receive 
any marketing from Yahoo. Users have 60 days to go to a page on 
Yahoo's Web site where they can record a choice not to receive 
telephone, postal or e-mail messages in various categories.  

Similarly, when Excite...was sold in bankruptcy court late last year, 
the new owner asked Excite users to accept a privacy policy that 
explicitly allows it to rent their names and phone numbers to 
marketing companies. (Those users, too, could check a box on the 
site to opt out of such programs, if they had not already done so on 
the old Excite.)  

The sites say that direct marketing to their users, both by e-mail 
and by older means, is an important source of revenue that can 
help make up for the rapid decline in sales of online advertising.  

"It has been our orientation from the beginning to be 
straightforward with the user," said Bill Daugherty, the co-chief 
executive of the Excite Network. "They are getting free content and 
utility that is unparalleled, and in return we will be marketing 
products to them."  

But even many marketing experts say that the risk to the 
reputations of these companies may outweigh any revenue they 
may receive.  

"What Yahoo has done is unconscionable," said Seth Godin, 
Yahoo's former vice president for direct marketing. "It's a bad thing, 
and it's bad for business. They would be better off sending offers 
to a million people who said they want to receive a coupon each 
day than to send them to 10 million people and worry about 
whether you have offended them by finally going too far."

Both Yahoo and Excite say they are not loosening their privacy 
policies, just making them more explicit. In the past, both 
companies simply asked users to check a box authorizing the Web 
sites to "contact" them with marketing messages. The sites assert 
that such wording did not rule out mail and telephone contacts in 
addition to e-mail messages.  

Privacy experts say such a legalistic interpretation of the privacy 
policy is at best misleading because, in practice, almost all contact 
from the sites has been by e-mail. "It's unfair," said Mark 
Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information 
Center. "People thought they were going to get e-mail solicitations. 
They didn't expect that their dealings with Yahoo would cause 
them to receive phone calls."  

Both Yahoo and Excite say they have not actually used users' 
phone numbers for any marketing programs so far and have made 
relatively few mailings to members.  

Other sites have been much more liberal in renting customer 
names. America Online has long rented customer addresses, and 
it also calls users to promote its services and those of its business 
partners. Lycos...and...ZDNet, a technology site, also rent users' 
names through mailing-list brokers.  

For example, Direct Media, a mailing list broker...offers access to 
2.9 million Lycos users at a cost of $125 per thousand names for a 
single mailing. (An extra $15 per thousand lets marketers select 
users showing an interest in a topic like cats or gambling.) 
Advertisers typically pay for the right to send a single mailing or 
make a single phone call to a name on a list they rent; they do not 
own the information outright.  

Stephen J. Killeen, the United States president of Terra Lycos, the 
parent of the Lycos portal, said mailing list rentals were a small but 
growing part of its marketing revenue. It does not yet rent phone 
numbers, a service that has a smaller market. "We look at 
ourselves as a way to match the right consumer with the right 
product, whatever the medium," Mr. Killeen said. "A lot of 
advertisers are looking at the Internet as part of integrated 
marketing campaigns."  

The privacy policy of Microsoft's MSN portal lets it send mail and 
make phone calls to customers on behalf of advertisers, but it has 
yet to do so. Microsoft lets users specify whether they do not want 
marketing via e-mail, postal mail or phone.  

"We value our customers' privacy," said Brian Gluth, a senior 
product manager at MSN, "and we have never changed a 
customer's preference of opt-in or opt-out, like some of our 
competitors have done."  

In many ways the Internet is simply joining the mainstream of 
American business, where the names of people who subscribe to 
magazines and who buy from catalogs are freely traded.  

Yahoo says its move to send mail and make calls to users on 
behalf of advertisers is far more limited than simply renting its 
customer file to companies with no relationship to Yahoo. It 
compares itself with American Express, which has long sent offers 
to cardholders for its own services, like insurance, and for those of 
other companies, like airlines and department stores.  

"To the extent we have been successful," said Lisa Nash, Yahoo's 
director of consumer and direct marketing, "it's because we have 
been extremely respectful of our users' time. We fully plan to 
continue that." She said the company had no immediate plans to 
start telemarketing programs, but she added, "We intend to have 
maximum flexibility."  

Ms. Nash said, however, that Yahoo's biggest objective in its new 
policy was to give it more freedom to sell its own services rather 
than those of its advertisers. Yahoo has been trying to recover 
from the slowdown in online advertising by introducing a raft of 
new fee-based offerings, like online games and expanded e-mail 
services.  

Unlike other sites, Yahoo has never asked users specifically if they 
want to receive information about its own services. Rather, it has 
asked a single question authorizing it to send both messages for 
Yahoo services and messages for advertisers (which include 
Columbia House and the Discover Card...

Now Yahoo has sent tens of millions of users e-mail messages 
saying that it has given itself permission to send messages on 
behalf of its own services. Users have 60 days to go to a section of 
the site (subscribe.yahoo.com/showaccount) and reject such 
messages in 13 categories - one by one. The categories range 
from games to job hunting.  

The distinction between messages from Yahoo and those from 
advertisers is not always clear because many companies do 
business under the Yahoo umbrella. Yahoo's travel channel, for 
example, is largely a Yahoo-brand version of the Travelocity online 
travel agent. Similarly, a message about back-to-school specials 
on Yahoo's shopping channel, for example, could well be paid 
advertising from some of the more than 10,000 stores in Yahoo's 
online mall.  

"We believe in the products and services we offer," said Srinjia 
Srinivasan, vice president and editor in chief at Yahoo. "Our 
network has grown so much we want to tell users about them."  

Truste, a nonprofit group financed by Internet companies that 
creates standards for privacy policies, agreed to endorse Yahoo's 
move after an extended discussion with the company. "I would not 
call what Yahoo did 'best practices,'" said Fran Maier, the group's 
executive director. "To the extent possible, you would like 
companies to honor the preferences that were previously set by 
the users. But on the other hand, we don't want to tell companies 
they can't do something when their business strategy changes. We 
have to balance those things."  


Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company




* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From sharma at blarg.net  Thu Apr 11 12:25:38 2002
From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 12:25:38 -0700
Subject: SCN: Fwd:  Artificial Societies - this is fascinating stuff
Message-ID: <IPMPM3ZJGYWHDYSF0YTNJ53QP1YGBPN.3cb5e332@pc-user>



------- Start of forwarded message -------
Date: 4/11/02 9:46:14 AM

Now they are simulating societies with computers and, in the process, 
finding out that societies can be simulated with a surprisingly small 
number of rules. I first saw this concept in Steven Johnson's book 
'Emergence', which talks about how complex behavior can arise from a 
small number of simple rules. This is apparently true in practice as 
well as theory:
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/04/rauch.htm

Yet more proof that the study of 'complexity' is often really the study 
of how complexity emerges from simple systems. One of the more 
interesting examples cited in the article is the study of official 
corruption using two types of agents; citizens and bureaucrats. Could 
this kind of thing be used to simulate governance and laws in a quest 
for a utopian society? (In the case of the previous example, simply 
adding in 'jail time' for bad behavior and a couple of incorruptable 
agents into the mix was enough to inculate 'honesty' throughout the system.)

If you think that people are too complex for this kind of simulation to 
be any use you are forgetting that even individual human behavior may 
often be modelled as an emergent system. Groups of people are apparently 
far easier to model. The examples of artificial racism (and genocide) in 
the article are especially chilling. However the article centers on a 
simulation of Anasazi culture that turns out somewhat different than 
reality; proof, at least, that you must model *all* the factors. Perhaps 
a win for more conventional 'Chaos Theory'. Or not.

Lots of other good stuff in the article, for example it mentions 'Zipf's 
Law'. But I didn't find the thing I most wanted; a link to download a 
program to simulate the stock market...



-------- End of forwarded message --------



* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 11 15:07:48 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:07:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204102228460.27885-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <20020411220748.34730.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com>

Technically, Bush may be right, to "some" degree (as some people get into illicit
activity to feed their families because there is nothing else they can do), but to
make such a direct and strong message linking drugs and terrorism is as lame as one
can get. It's a total joke and belongs up there with "Just Say No". 

It's simply ignoring reality. Actually dissuading people from getting off their
crank because it's patriotic.

Patrick


--- Joe Mabel <jmabel at speakeasy.org> wrote:
> Don't be silly. Fundamentally, a junkie is just another victim, but surely you 
> don't think someone is out there doing good works with the money derived from 
> the heroin trade, do you? Indeed, quite apropos, Afghanistan is one of the 
> world's leading producers of raw opium (the so-called Northern Alliance 
> probably being even more opium-friendly than the unlamented Taliban). From 
> there, as it is refined and before it makes it to the veins of seef-destructive 
> Ammricans, it most likely passes through the hands such lovely folks as the 
> Chinese Triads.
> 
> This is not particularly the nature of drugs: it's the nature of valuable black 
> market commodities. In Africa, terrorists generally finance themselves on 
> diamonds (think the recently deceased Jonas Savimbi, or for that matter any of 
> the so-called governments of the Congn/Zaire). 
> 
> I realize that the fact that Bush says something decreases the probablity 
> that it is true, but in this case I believe he is right. Of course, he would 
> never admit that prime examples of the drug/terror connection are cocaine in the 
> US support of the Nicaraguan contras of the Eighties or the network of 
> "anit-communist" ex-Kuomintang generals (and their heirs) who still function as 
> warlords in the "Golden Triangle" of Indochina.
> 
> --------------------
> Joe Mabel
> 
> On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:
> 
> > Then it must be treason to be a junkie.
> > 
> > P
> > 
> > 
> > --- Joe Mabel <jmabel at speakeasy.org> wrote:
> > > Well, W. should know. After all, his dad was CIA, and whowhas a greater  cord
> of 
> > > financing terror with drug money. Sure the two can be related: the CIA aren't 
> > > the only people who understand that selling drugs is a grrat way to finance
> oer 
> > > illicit activity. Not that all drug sales are terror-related or vice versa,
> but 
> > > illicit activities tend to cluster - just like interlocking directorates of 
> > > corporations!
> > > 
> > > Years ago I had a (rather druggie) friend who had bumper stickers made up that
> 
> > > said "Stop contra aid: boycott cocaine".
> > > 
> > > I don't advocate (or particularly oppose) drug use but much as I would
> recommend 
> > > buying locally grown organic produce, I would recommend that if you are going
> to 
> > > buy drugs, stick to locally grown organic dope. Or grow your own.  Responsible
> 
> > > consumerism applies just as much when you are living outside the law. And 
> > > there's simply no such thing as "good folks" producing Heroin or cocaine. If
> you 
> > > are buying that shit, it's just a question of which evils you are supporting, 
> > > and you'll probably never know.
> > > 
> > > --------------------
> > > Joe Mabel
> > > 
> > > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Patrick Fisher wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I can't believe this:
> > > > 
> > > > Drugs and Terror: Understanding the Link and the Impact on America 
> > > > 
> > > > "It's so important for Americans to know that the traffic in drugs
> > > > finances the work of terror, sustaining terrorists, that terrorists use
> > > > drug profits to fund their cells to commit acts of murder. If you quit
> > > > drugs, you join the fight against terror in America."
> > > > President George W. Bush 
> > > > 
> > > > There is an undeniable link between acts of terror and illicit drugs. Law
> > > > enforcement officials around the world have long recognized this close
> > > > connection, but a changing world and recent events have made this link
> > > > more relevant in the daily lives of all Americans. The bottom line is
> > > > simple: terror and drug groups are linked in a mutually-beneficial
> > > > relationship by money, tactics, geography and politics. Americans must
> > > > understand that our individual choices about illicit drug use have the
> > > > power to support or undermine our nation's war on terrorism.
> > > >  
> > > > http://www.theantidrug.com/drugs_terror/understanding_impact.html
> > > > 
> > > > There is always some kind of link to anything. Is someone who is hooked
> > > > and loaded on heroin really going to go to this site and get real
> > > > patriotic and quit?
> > > > 
> > > > It's a stretch.
> > > >  Patrick
> > > > Webmaster
> > > > Seattle Community Network
> > > > http://www.scn.org
> > > > "Powering our communities with technology"
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > > > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > > > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > > > unsubscribe scn
> > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > > > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > > unsubscribe scn
> > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > 
> > 
> > =====
> > Webmaster
> > Seattle Community Network
> > http://www.scn.org
> > "Powering our communities with technology"
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > 
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From davidb at scn.org  Thu Apr 11 20:16:03 2002
From: davidb at scn.org (David Barts)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 20:16:03 -0700
Subject: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204102228460.27885-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>; from jmabel@speakeasy.org on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:43:48PM -0700
References: <20020410203419.10898.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204102228460.27885-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <20020411201603.B17053@scn.scn.org>

I think the whole thing is one of the more blatant pieces of bullshit
I've seen in some time.

What "drugs"?  E produced in a local lab?  Local, organically-grown
pot?  Beer?  Wine?  A double-tall latte? Cigarettes?

Sure, heroin and cocaine, while being more socially responsible and
less addictive choices than cigarettes at home[1], probably _do_ support
terrorism abroad.  But "drugs" in general: no.

And forget Afghanistan's main export.  Most of the Sept. 11th
terrorists didn't come from there.  They came from Saudi Arabia.  And
we all know what their main export is.

If anything, it's buying gasoline that supports terrorism!

[1] More socially responsible?  Most definitely!  How many smack
addicts do you know who go around with full syringes, jabbing everyone
in their vicinity as well as themselves, every time they shoot up?
Cigarette addicts do the equivalent all the time with their second-hand
smoke.

-- 
         David W. Barts (davidb at scn.org) / http://www.scn.org/~davidb
      "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and
     demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of
                     justice and mercy." -- Wendell Berry
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 11 21:57:30 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:57:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <20020411201603.B17053@scn.scn.org>
Message-ID: <20020412045730.13503.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>

So driving a car is grounds for treason. Indirectly. But there is a link.

Patrick

--- David Barts <davidb at scn.org> wrote:
> I think the whole thing is one of the more blatant pieces of bullshit
> I've seen in some time.
> 
> What "drugs"?  E produced in a local lab?  Local, organically-grown
> pot?  Beer?  Wine?  A double-tall latte? Cigarettes?
> 
> Sure, heroin and cocaine, while being more socially responsible and
> less addictive choices than cigarettes at home[1], probably _do_ support
> terrorism abroad.  But "drugs" in general: no.
> 
> And forget Afghanistan's main export.  Most of the Sept. 11th
> terrorists didn't come from there.  They came from Saudi Arabia.  And
> we all know what their main export is.
> 
> If anything, it's buying gasoline that supports terrorism!
> 
> [1] More socially responsible?  Most definitely!  How many smack
> addicts do you know who go around with full syringes, jabbing everyone
> in their vicinity as well as themselves, every time they shoot up?
> Cigarette addicts do the equivalent all the time with their second-hand
> smoke.
> 
> -- 
>          David W. Barts (davidb at scn.org) / http://www.scn.org/~davidb
>       "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and
>      demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of
>                      justice and mercy." -- Wendell Berry
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From design at eskimo.com  Fri Apr 12 00:04:22 2002
From: design at eskimo.com (Jim Loring)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:04:22 -0700
Subject: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism
In-Reply-To: <20020411201603.B17053@scn.scn.org>
Message-ID: <AIEBKKBIGBPHLGFIAPMIOEMHCFAA.design@eskimo.com>

Well, I suppose one could find a correlation between everything and
everything else, but that won't get us too far....

With that in mind, David makes an interesting point about buying gasoline
and supporting terrorism.

A great deal of wealth has flowed into many of the Gulf States from the
West's addiction to petroleum-based products. If one accepts that much of
that wealth hasn't really been distributed equitably in many of the Gulf's
economies, what sets of reforms can (or should) the oil importing countries
make.

Jim



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of David
Barts
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:16 PM
To: scn at scn.org
Subject: Re: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism


I think the whole thing is one of the more blatant pieces of bullshit
I've seen in some time.

What "drugs"?  E produced in a local lab?  Local, organically-grown
pot?  Beer?  Wine?  A double-tall latte? Cigarettes?

Sure, heroin and cocaine, while being more socially responsible and
less addictive choices than cigarettes at home[1], probably _do_ support
terrorism abroad.  But "drugs" in general: no.

And forget Afghanistan's main export.  Most of the Sept. 11th
terrorists didn't come from there.  They came from Saudi Arabia.  And
we all know what their main export is.

If anything, it's buying gasoline that supports terrorism!

[1] More socially responsible?  Most definitely!  How many smack
addicts do you know who go around with full syringes, jabbing everyone
in their vicinity as well as themselves, every time they shoot up?
Cigarette addicts do the equivalent all the time with their second-hand
smoke.

--
         David W. Barts (davidb at scn.org) / http://www.scn.org/~davidb
      "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and
     demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of
                     justice and mercy." -- Wendell Berry
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *



* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From emailer1 at netzero.net  Fri Apr 12 11:03:43 2002
From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:03:43 -0700
Subject: SCN: WIB -- Recent Events
Message-ID: <007801c1e254$5c509640$7152fea9@desktop>

Below is a letter from Gila Svirsky, an Israeli
long-time peace activist and member of Jerusalem Woman
in Black. Her writing is always compelling and clear
about what needs to be done. This week, she is one of
the many prophetic voices calling us to act in
whatever ways we can. Below her letter is the text of
our flyer for this week. Following that are 2 other
messages about local events to protest racial
profiling of immigrants.

With hope for a just peace,
Elise DeGooyer
****************

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 18:58:02 +0200 
From: Gila Svirsky 
Subject: After the Outrage and Tears 

Friends, 
I just returned to Israel from 2 weeks abroad, and
took 2 more days to get a perspective on what I see
and hear, which I would now like to share with you: 

First, the overwhelming picture before us is of death
and destruction wrought by the Israeli army in the
Palestinian cities, Jenin above all. In addition to
the hundreds killed and thousands wounded, we have
irrefutable evidence that the Israeli army has barred
ambulances from evacuating the dead and wounded, has
bulldozed homes in large numbers (sometimes with the
families still inside), and has withheld access to
water, electricity, and phone communication for
periods of a week and more. Can you imagine life with
no water, while men, women, and children are bleeding
to death around you? And finally having to bury the
corpses in an empty lot nearby, after days of keeping
them at home? 

These go well beyond the ongoing acts of brutality,
mass arrests, vandalism, theft, and humiliations,
which are also rampant. A senior officer was quoted in
Ha'aretz today as saying, "When the world sees
pictures of what we have done there, it will cause
enormous damage to us." It's no wonder that the media
are not given access. Listening to the report from the
field at the emergency board meeting of B'Tselem last
night, I was not the only one with tears in my eyes. 

This is no time for analysis, although I have much to
say: About the complicity of Peres, about the
appalling anti-Semitism unleashed internationally by
legitimate anger at Israeli, and about how horrifying
terrorism in Israel and the so-called "war against
terrorism" in the US have given license to what is
happening. Introduce Bush-Cheney-Rice-Sharon-Mofaz,
and the recipe for Violence-Begets-More Violence is
complete. Today's killing of 13 Israeli soldiers in
Jenin only drives home the tragic futility of Israel's
military might. 

Rather than analyze, this is a time to act. Here in
Israel, the peace and human rights movement is working
tirelessly on every imaginable front. Soldiers who
refuse to serve the occupation are going to jail;
convoys of food and medical supplies hastily collected
have been distributed and more are being collected;
human rights workers are risking their lives to
monitor action; peace activists have braved hailstorms
of teargas and stun grenades in facing army
checkpoints; foreign activists have served as human
shields throughout the territories. In my history of
activism, I recall no parallel sense of urgency, in
which lives and daily bread are being set aside to
pursue a cause. But I also recall no parallel feeling
that a calamity of our own making is unfolding before
our eyes. 

I implore you to take action of your own. Contact
relevant officials (some addresses are given below).
If you're Jewish, make a point of saying that. Tell
them: 
1) International monitors must be dispatched to the
region at once to end the terrible violence. 
2) The root cause of the conflict is the Israeli
occupation of the territories. This must come to an
end. 
Other things you can do, even if you have limited
time: 
&#61623; If you have just 1 minute to give, forward
this letter to others on your list. 
&#61623;  If you have 10 minutes to spare, write a
check to the organization of your choice (see the
links at www.coalitionofwomen4peace.org for a few
suggestions). 
&#61623;  If you have 20 minutes, call, fax or write
(make it brief!) any of the officials below. 
&#61623;  If you have an hour, write a letter to the
editor of your local newspaper (brief and from the
heart). 
&#61623;  If you have more time, get involved. See
"Get Involved - Find an Organization Near You" at
www.junity.org for some suggestions. 
&#61623;  If you're an American Jew, join the Tikkun
Community (www.tikkun.org) or the newly formed Brit
Tzedek v'Shalom - Jewish Alliance for Justice & Peace
(www.jppi.org). 

Whatever you can do is valuable. 

Finally, I can't help but note that Israel marked
Holocaust Memorial Day today. When will we finally
extricate ourselves from this trauma and apply
ourselves to instilling its true lesson, that of
tolerance? 
Shalom / Salaam from Jerusalem, Gila Svirsky
___________________________ 

OFFICIALS TO CONTACT: Note: If you have time, print
out and fax a letter (or make a phone call), as those
are more effective than e-mail. 
President George W. Bush Phone: (202) 456-1414 Fax:
(202) 456-2461 E-mail: president at whitehouse.gov
Secretary of State Colin Powell Phone: (202) 647-4000
(202-647-5150) Bureau of Near East Affairs Fax: (202)
261-8577 E-mail: secretary at state.gov 
Ms. Mary Robinson United Nations High Commissioner for
Human Rights webadmin.hchr at unog.ch 
Mr. Kofi Annan Secretary General of the UN Phone:
(212) 963-5012 Fax: (212) 963-4879 
Mr.Terje Rod Larsen Representative of the UN in
Palestine Tel: + 972 8 282 2914 Fax: + 972 8 282 0966
unsco at palnet.com 
Council of the European Union
public.info at consilium.eu.int
karin.roxman at consilium.eu.int 
Javier Solana - EU special envoy:
javier.sancho-velazquez at consilium.eu.int 

see Coalition of Women for a Just Peace:
http://www.coalitionofwomen4peace.org 

*********************************


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.scn.org/pipermail/scn/attachments/20020412/6316e4b1/attachment.html>

From emailer1 at netzero.net  Fri Apr 12 11:09:38 2002
From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:09:38 -0700
Subject: SCN: WIB -- Afghanistan
Message-ID: <007901c1e254$69c60580$7152fea9@desktop>



Conservative estimates of Afghani civilian deaths
outnumber civilian deaths in the September 11 attack
by several hundred. As of December 6, 2001:
September 11 civilian deaths:  3,122.    
Afghani civilian deaths:  3,767
The Afghani death toll continues to rise, especially
when deaths by starvation are included.

Eyewitness accounts accuse Americans of bombing
civilian facilities such as homes, schools and
hospitals. Nor are America's allies any cause for
pride. In the months since the Northern Alliance was
given control of the nation by American support, its
soldiers have pursued campaigns of terror against
other ethnic groups, including gang rapes of girls as
young as 10 years old. Deliveries of food and medical
supplies from America intended for the civilian
population have been seized by military groups for
their own use. At the same time, many Northern
Alliance soldiers have become bandits in recent weeks,
apparently because their commanders have not paid or
fed them.  America, in other words, supports corrupt
and ineffective military leaders while turning a blind
eye to a rabble of local terrorists with
personal/ethnic agendas that have nothing to do with
American security. 
 
Warring nations say that collateral damage is
regrettable but unavoidable.

"Collateral damage" is a euphemism for the killing of
non-combatants as a side effect of attacks on military
targets.  We declare that the loss of even one
innocent life is an unacceptable price to pay for any
political goal.

Let the world's leaders know that you demand peace and
justice now! 
USA: President George W. Bush:
president at whitehouse.gov, Fax:(202) 456-2461 
Secretary of State Colin Powell: secretary at state.gov ,
Fax: +1-202-261-8577
Senator Patty Murray: phone 206-553-5545, email
senator_murray at murray.senate.gov
Senator Maria Cantwell: phone 206-220-6400, email
maria at cantwell.senate.gov
Israel: Prime Minister Ariel Sharon: email
webmaster at pmo.gov.il, fax:(+972-2) 566-4838 
Defense Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer: sar at mod.gov.il,
Fax: ++972-3-696 2757 
Foreign Minister Shimon Peres: sar at mofa.gov.il,
fax:+972-2-5303704
United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan: email
ecu at un.org, coi at un.org
Mary Robinson, High Commissioner for Human Rights:
webadmin.hchr at unog.ch
Terje Rod Larsen. Representative in Palestine:
unsco at palnet.com, Fax: + 972 8 282 0966 

**************
Women in Black is an international network of vigils
calling for peace, justice and non-violent solutions
to conflict. Begun in 1988 by Israeli and Palestinian
women using the model of the Argentinean Mothers of
the Disappeared, it has spread to conflict areas all
over the world. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.scn.org/pipermail/scn/attachments/20020412/0eb605ca/attachment.html>

From emailer1 at netzero.net  Fri Apr 12 12:38:21 2002
From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:38:21 -0700
Subject: SCN: More Encouragement
Message-ID: <000201c1e25c$a23f2380$7152fea9@desktop>

More encouragement.  If this can happen in Nebraska, .......

-----Original Message-----
From: NFPState at aol.com <NFPState at aol.com>
To: NFPState at aol.com <NFPState at aol.com>
Date: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:29 AM
Subject: Tax Day Leafleting at the Post Office in Omaha


FOR MORE INFORMATION CONTACT: Kevin Tuininga 402-453-0776 

Tax Day Leafleting at the Post Office 

On April 15, concerned citizens of Nebraska will be leafleting in front of the main Omaha Post Office at 1124 Pacific St. between 4:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. Leaflets containing information about where America's tax dollars are spent will be passed out to those entering and leaving the Post Office. Event organizers and participants will be available for interviews between 4:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. 

According to the War Resisters League and the Center for Defense Information the US spends close to half of its federal tax dollars on the military. This analysis includes money spent on interest on the national debt created by military spending. 

In comparison to other countries, the US spends an extremely disproportionate amount of money for military purposes. According to the CDI, US military spending "is more than 26 times as large as the combined spending of the seven countries traditionally identified by the Pentagon as our most likely adversaries (Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria)."  These seven potential enemies and China and Russia combined spend $117 billion, which is only around 30% of U.S. military expenditures. 

Considering America's potential enemies, the dramatic increase in military spending sought by President Bush is extremely suspect. It appears that the administration may be taking advantage of the current political climate of fear to dole out corporate welfare to military contractors at a time when worldwide military spending is decreasing.   

The leafleting event, sponsored by Nebraskans for Peace, will be designed to inform people about the illogical and wasteful expenditure of our tax dollars on military might when much of the world is wallowing in poverty, despair and violence. The leaflets urge Nebraskans to tell our political leaders that the US should be at the forefront in reducing violence through humanitarian aid and economic development assistance as opposed to engaging in reactionary military campaigns in poverty stricken countries. Nebraskans for Peace believes that by spending just a portion of the current tax dollars earmarked for the military to reduce poverty, hunger, illiteracy etc., the US can reduce the chances that citizens of the world will draw attention to their grievances through violence. The current U.S. military budget combined with comparatively minuscule expenditures on humanitarian foreign aid exposes a near complete denial of global responsibility beyond a desire for economic and military dominance. 
### 

Please email nfpstate at aol.com to be removed from this list. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.scn.org/pipermail/scn/attachments/20020412/20f90ef5/attachment.html>

From emailer1 at netzero.net  Fri Apr 12 12:39:09 2002
From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:39:09 -0700
Subject: SCN: Fw: Friends of Palestine potluck/Tents for Peace/Freeze US Military Aid to Israel   
Message-ID: <000401c1e25c$bf833440$7152fea9@desktop>

Keep up the effort.  There are others out there trying, even in Nebraska.

-----Original Message-----
From: NFPState at aol.com <NFPState at aol.com>
To: NFPState at aol.com <NFPState at aol.com>
Date: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:17 AM
Subject: Friends of Palestine potluck/Tents for Peace/Freeze US Military Aid to Israel 

-Friends of Palestine potluck 
-Tents for Peace 
-Freeze US Military Aid to Israel    

**************************************************** 
Friends of Palestine potluck 
**************************************************** 

Friends of Palestine invite you to a potluck lunch to commemorate the Deir Yaseen Massacre and get caught up on the recent escalation of events at the Mennonite Church, 7300 Holdridge, Lincoln on Sunday, 14 April 2002 at 12:15 pm. Please bring a dish to share. 

RSVP: Ruth Thone - 421-2855, ruththone at msn.com 
Mona Bashir - 483-2776, mona_bashir at yahoo.com 


**************************************************** 
Tents for Peace 
**************************************************** 

A group of UNL students have set up Tents for Peace outside the University of Nebraska-Lincoln City Campus Student Union at 14th and R Streets in Lincoln.  They are spending the week of April 8-12, 24 hours a day, at the tent to 
raise awareness about the Palestinian crisis. 

There was an article in the April 9 edition of the Lincoln Journal Star about the encampment. 

You can still stop by today and tomorrow and offer your encouragement and 
support.   

**************************************************** 
Freeze US Military Aid to Israel 
**************************************************** 

Action Alert 
Freeze US Military Aid to Israel 

The use of violence by both Israelis and Palestinians in the current conflict is reprehensible. Peace Action, as an organization that promotes non-violent solution of conflicts, urges the Palestinian Authority to reject suicide bombings and other violent measures. While Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has begun a partial withdrawal from some of the occupied territories, he has stated that attacks on Palestinian towns and refugee camps will continue. In some areas the siege has been tightened. Reports indicate that the Israeli Defense Forces intend to remain in Palestinian cities for the foreseeable future. Former Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, speaking on behalf of Israel, compared Israel's current actions to the US war on terrorism. On CBS's Face the Nation Netanyahu said, "The reason it's taking time is because we're not using massive air power and massive fire power. We're trying to do it slowly to save civilian lives…" 

Far from saving innocent lives, Israel's actions are escalating the violence and the deaths of innocent civilians. 
For more information see: http://www.peace-action.org/home/israel.html 

Take Action 
Contact your Congressperson and Senators and tell them to: 

initiate a cut-off of military aid to Israel and a freeze on all pending arms sales or transfers until Israel lifts the current siege of Palestinian territory; 

urge Israel to withdraw to its pre-1967 borders; 

support an end to US arms sales to the entire Middle East region; 

support full and immediate implementation of all relevant United Nations resolutions on the Israel-Palestine conflict. If you already know who represents you, you can reach them at the Capitol Switchboard: (202) 224-312. 

Check out this section of our site to find more options on how to contact congress: http://www.peace-action.org/tools/congress.html 


Carrie Benzschawel 
Program Associate 
Peace Action Education Fund 
mailto:cbenzschawel at peace-action.org 
http://www.peace-action.org 
202.862.9740x3041 
fax: 202.862.9762 
1819 H St., NW, #425 
Washington, DC 20006 
-------------------------------------------- 
If you would like to unsubscribe from one of our email lists, please email Carrie Benzschawel at mailto:cbenzschawel at peace-action.org. Thank you. 
The Peace Action Education Fund works for global elimination of nuclear weapons, an end to the conventional arms trade, and cutting military spending in order to address human needs. 

Please email nfpstate at aol.com to be removed from this list. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.scn.org/pipermail/scn/attachments/20020412/9402fd69/attachment.html>

From clariun at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 13 20:58:10 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 20:58:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Ashcroft finds statues obscene
Message-ID: <20020414035810.51184.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com>

This is too funny: The Justice Department spent $8,000 to cover "obscene" statues.

http://www.art-for-a-change.com/News/news.htm

Patrick

=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From sharma at blarg.net  Sun Apr 14 10:41:25 2002
From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:41:25 -0700
Subject: SCN: Fwd: FC: IEEE says authors must certify papers to be DMCA-violation-free
Message-ID: <3ZKG4YOJNIQPLG044Z51CB4WFDB909HF.3cb9bf45@pc-user>



------- Start of forwarded message -------
From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
To: politech at politechbot.com
Reply-To: declan at well.com
Subject: Fwd: FC: IEEE says authors must certify papers to be DMCA-violation-free
Date: 4/14/02 10:24:47 AM


---

From: "paul music" <pmusic at mmcable.com>
To: "DeClan" <declan at well.com>
Subject: IEEE forbids papers violating DMCA
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:01:19 -0500

Saturday April 13, 2002 - [ 12:38 AM GMT ]
<mailto:emin at allegro.mit.edu>Anonymous Reader writes "The Institute for 
Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE) now forbids paper submissions 
which violate the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) via its new 
copyright form available at 
www.ieee.org/about/documentation/copyright/NewCRfo rm101901.pdf. The 
copyright form, which all authors must sign as a condition of publication, 
requires the signer to warrant that the "publication or dissemination of 
the Work shall not violate any proprietary right or the Digital Copyright 
Millennium Act" [sic]. According to their web site at www.ieee.org, the 
IEEE is a non-profit, technical professional association of more than 
377,000 individual members in 150 countries. The IEEE produces 30 percent 
of the world's published literature in electrical engineering, computers 
and control technology, holds annually more than 300 major conferences and 
has more than 860 active standards with 700 under development. Hence, the 
IEEE's decision to require authors to adhere to the DMCA has the potential 
to restrict research and discussion of security matters worldwide due to 
the 1998 U.S. law."

  <http://newsvac.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/04/14/0039211>
http://newsvac.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/04/14/0039211 


---

From: David Crookes <david at crimbles.demon.co.uk>
To: declan at well.com
Subject: Fwd: Censored article
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 08:40:16 +0100

This seems worthy enough for politech...

----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

Subject: Censored article
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:36:28 +0100
From: Ross Anderson <Ross.Anderson at cl.cam.ac.uk>

I was invited to write an article for IEEE Spectrum on the
export bill. I did so, but they insisted on editorial
changes that I found unacceptable. For example, they wanted
to insert a sentence crediting IBM with opposition to
export controls, when as we all know IBM was thoroughly in
the NSA corner.

IEEE first delayed the article to May, and then pulled it. I
have put it up on my web site instead:

         http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/spectrum.html

Ross

-------------------------------------------------------




-------------------------------------------------------------------------
POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list
You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice.
To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html
This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/
Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sign this pro-therapeutic cloning petition: http://www.franklinsociety.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------------



-------- End of forwarded message --------



* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From scoth at scn.org  Sun Apr 14 16:53:19 2002
From: scoth at scn.org (Scot Harkins on scn.org)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 16:53:19 -0700
Subject: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism
References: <AIEBKKBIGBPHLGFIAPMIOEMHCFAA.design@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <004201c1e40f$900566c0$028cc5ce@mshome.net>

People use drugs for a variety of reasons, most of them arguably in
response to socio-economic conditions, many more because of social
acceptance of recreational use of harder drugs (elevating to addiction
and associated supportive behavior).

People drive vehicles to move themselves and a variety of other things
around, much of it in support of economic activities necessary to our
society.

I'd say our consumption of oil far exceeds our consumption, in dollar
terms, of illegal drugs.  Whether that contributes directly to
terrorism is the question.  If we prop up regimes that suppress
freedom in order to keep our oil flowing then we might well be working
harder to create and support terrorism than all the addicts in the
world.

If we want to suppress possible terrorism and save our own wilderness
resources filled with mere drops of oil then we should take
conservation seriously, but then I fear I'm preaching to the choir in
this arena.

If we want to suppress drug use, at least as escape from social and
economic ills, then we need to address those areas, and not with
simple (read idiotic) programs that do not actually solve anything.

Oh, dear...I feel the slippery slope of continuing arguments and the
bewailing of our ills and how to fix them (God, no, wait, Allah, no,
wait, Mother Earth...).

I know what.  Let's all do our best.  Use less, re-use more, support
those in need, including helping them evade the trap of drugs and
addiction.  Be good.  Fight evil.  Don't let the big corps win at
ruling the world (even if they don't realize what they're doing on an
individual level), and don't let the governments of the world continue
bullying...wait, I'm getting beyond the power of individuals.  Back to
use less, re-use more, help others.


Ciao!
sh

--
Scot Harkins (KA5KDU)
Greenbank, WA, US
Phone: 360-678-5880
Email: scoth at bigfoot.com
URL <http://www.bigfoot.com/~scoth>
--

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Loring" <design at eskimo.com>
To: <scn at scn.org>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 12:04 AM
Subject: RE: SCN: Correlation between drug use and terrorism


> Well, I suppose one could find a correlation between everything and
> everything else, but that won't get us too far....
>
> With that in mind, David makes an interesting point about buying
gasoline
> and supporting terrorism.
>
> A great deal of wealth has flowed into many of the Gulf States from
the
> West's addiction to petroleum-based products. If one accepts that
much of
> that wealth hasn't really been distributed equitably in many of the
Gulf's
> economies, what sets of reforms can (or should) the oil importing
countries
> make.
>
> Jim


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 14 18:01:38 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 18:01:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: G3 Powerbook for sale
Message-ID: <20020415010138.55886.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>

I'm selling my trusty workhorse, the Powerbook G3 Apple laptop. It runs at 233
megahertz, 2 gig harddrive, 96 megs of ram. Specs are here:
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g3/stats/powerbook_g3_233.html

It has a 12.1 passive-matrix screen, 2 PCMCIA card slots, Ethernet, video out,
stereo speakers, 56K modem, wireless-ready, battery, Yo-Yo power adapter, removable
CD player and floppy disk which is also removable. Can take 2 batteries if you like.
Battery life is 3.5 hours.

I'm selling it because I just bought an iBook. 

$550 OBO.

Thanks,
Patrick

=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From aristotle at grzzr.com  Mon Apr 15 05:10:54 2002
From: aristotle at grzzr.com (aristotle at grzzr.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:10:54 +0800
Subject: SCN: Aristotle Q2 2002 Report A5
Message-ID: <1018919839.0127701732@postoffice.grzzr.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.scn.org/pipermail/scn/attachments/20020415/41414cd0/attachment.html>

From douglas  Mon Apr 15 08:50:06 2002
From: douglas (Doug Schuler)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 08:50:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Thanks!!!
Message-ID: <200204151550.IAA27100@scn.org>


I think I had forgotten to thank Randy and JJ (others?) for
heroic efforts and restoring all of our files after the disk 
crash last week.

THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- Doug

   ******************************************************************
   *     SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY                                *
   *          Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change        *
   *                  http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02        *
   * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure        *
   *   is being shaped today.                                       *
   *                              But by whom and to what ends?     *
   * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org                                *
   ******************************************************************


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From randy at scn.org  Mon Apr 15 09:03:38 2002
From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:03:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Thanks!!!
In-Reply-To: <200204151550.IAA27100@scn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0204150859430.29248-100000@scn.scn.org>


Last week?  Was there another one? 8-0

Seriously, it was almost a month ago now (well, maybe three weeks).

And the thanks are appreciated.

-randy


On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Doug Schuler wrote:

>
> I think I had forgotten to thank Randy and JJ (others?) for
> heroic efforts and restoring all of our files after the disk
> crash last week.
>
> THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> -- Doug
>
>    ******************************************************************
>    *     SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY                                *
>    *          Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change        *
>    *                  http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02        *
>    * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure        *
>    *   is being shaped today.                                       *
>    *                              But by whom and to what ends?     *
>    * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org                                *
>    ******************************************************************
>
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
>


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From write at scn.org  Mon Apr 15 12:33:17 2002
From: write at scn.org (Jan Kammert)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:33:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Re: moving?
In-Reply-To: <20020414192016.3824.h004.c014.wm@mail.uwalumni.com.criticalpath.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020415120615.12161A-100000@scn>

Hi Jamie,
Are you driving or flying yourself back?  Do you know exactly where you're
going?  Your friends in San Francisco will miss you.

It's our spring break this week.  Evan is out looking at a site where he
is going to release baby salmon later this week.  The 6th grade science
teacher has been rasiing the fish for weeks.  Evan will release the fish
at night because it's easier for the fish if they are released when it's
dark.

I did our taxes today -- nothing like waiting until the last minute!
Every year I think that we'd probably save money if we had an accountant
who could help us with deductions.  I also wonder how people who have less
education than I do understand the forms.  Some parts I have to read more
than once.  Of course, anything that includes math tends to make me a bit
nervous.

Tomorrow we're going to the Tulip Festival in Skagit Country north of her



On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Jamie Wall wrote:

> Hey.  Thanks for the note.  The date is May 1 - my last day at work is the 
26th,
> and the movers show up on the 30th.  I'm looking forward to it.
> 
> Glad to hear your student went through.  I mostly enjoy that sort of 
research,
> too.
> 
> Spent the afternoon at a Giants game.  I'm not a big baseball fan, but I 
do like
> going to the park occasionally.
> 
> --J
> 
> On Sat, 13 April 2002, Jan Kammert wrote
> 
> > 
> > Hi Jamie,
> > I know you are moving soon, but not exactly when.  Do you have a moving
> > date set yet?
> > One of my History Day students, Elizabeth, is going to the state
> > competition the first week in May.  Her topic is segregation and she is
> > focusing on the Plessy and Brown cases.  A librarian friend of mine from
> > UW got microfilm of the NAACP notes from the Brown case.  I went through
> > lots of the microfilm.  I love that kind of research, and for a minute I
> > thought about going back to school to get a PhD.  I wonder what other jobs
> > pay people to do research?
> > Have a great move (as these things go).  I hope you enjoy the start of a
> > new chapter in your life.
> > Jan
> 
> 
> On Wisconsin!  Get your free University of Wisconsin alumni e-mail at http://uwalumni.com
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From emailer1 at netzero.net  Wed Apr 17 00:47:28 2002
From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:47:28 -0700
Subject: SCN: Fw: anti-war pro-justice rally noon 4/20 @ Westlake
Message-ID: <000b01c1e5fe$dfdf6ce0$7152fea9@desktop>

From: Jean Buskin <bb369 at scn.org>
To: <mailto:scn at scn.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 12:34 AM
Subject: anti-war pro-justice rally noon 4/20 @ Westlake


> our chance to participate in an anti-war pro-justice event 
> that is going to be BIG, PEACEFUL, AND LOUD
> 
> ***********************************************************
> P L E A S E   F O R W A R D   B R O A D L Y 
>   AND phone your friends without e-mail!!!!
> ***********************************************************
> 
> SATURDAY APRIL 20, 11:55 a.m. gathering,noon - 1 p.m. rally 
> at Westlake Park, 4th & Pine, downtown Seattle
> "Prevent Global Destruction, Defend Human Rights:  WAKE UP 
> WASHINGTON!"
> 
> In solidarity with the demonstrations in Washington, DC;  A 
> gathering at five minutes to noon and a rally noon to 1 p.m. 
> to OPPOSE WIDER WARS, SUPPORT CIVIL LIBERTY, AND SUPPORT 
> MONEY FOR HUMAN NEEDS.  
> 
> info Fred Miller, Peace and Justice Alliance, 206-527-8050 
> or Dick Blakney, INOC, 206-522-4934 or rbblakn at aol.com, 
> WEBSITE  http://www.wakeupwashington.org
> 
> WHY:  The "Wake Up Washington" rally was called by diverse 
> church, peace, justice, human rights, and social service 
> groups to oppose wider wars, support civil liberty, and 
> support money for human needs.  In solidarity with the large 
> "A20" rallies in Washington, DC, the noon Seattle rally is 
> an effort to raise public awareness to changes in US policy 
> which present a growing threat to peace and liberty at home 
> and abroad.  Participants will express opposition to 
> expanding the "anti-terrorist" war to Iraq or any other 
> country;  to U.S. foreign policies which contribute to the 
> oppression of people in Palestine, Philippines, and many 
> other countries.  We gather to support civil liberties and 
> to condemn such abuses as the indefinite detention of 
> immigrants; harassment and closure of local businesses 
> without probable cause or due process, and the ongoing 
> racial profiling which far pre-dates 9/11.  We oppose the 
> current administration's request for $45 billion additional 
> defense funds, and the President's unilateral breaking of 
> long-standing disarmament treaties.  Rather we support tax 
> spending on education, health care, housing, job training, 
> and other means of long-term investment in a just society.
> 
> CONFIRMED SPEAKERS:
> Cameo appearance by DAVID BARSAMIAN, founder and director of  
> the nationally distributed Alternative Radio
> REV. HARRIETT WALDEN, community activist and spiritual 
> leader, co-founder of Mothers for Police Accountability
> LENA KHALAF TUFFAHA, Palestinian American, volunteer with 
> American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee
> SHULAMIT DECKTOR, Jewish American, works as a consultant to 
> Native American tribes, raised in South Africa, lived in 
> Israel, active in Fellowship of Reconciliation
> REV. ROBERT JEFFREY, SR., Senior Pastor, New Hope Baptist 
> Church, director of the Black Dollar Days Task Force
> GERRI HAYNES, R.N., pediatric hospice specialist, President, 
> Washington Physicians for Social Responsibility, has 
> traveled to Mid-East and Iraq
> MARTIN FLECK, Convener of Northwest Disarmament Coalition & 
> Washington Physicians for Social Responsibility's Executive 
> Director
> ED MAST, playwright, MC
> 
> MUSIC-WITH-A-MESSAGE will be presented by:
> Seattle LABOR CHORUS, in solidarity with all workers
> Seattle RAGING GRANNIES, irreverent satire by a group of 
> elders
> 
> SPONSORS include 911 Peace Coalition;  Act Now to Stop War 
> and End Racism;  American Friends Service Committee;  
> American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee;  Arab American 
> Community Coalition;  Center for Contemplation & 
> Nonviolence;  Church Council of Greater Seattle;  Citizens 
> Concerned for the People of Iraq;  Education for Peace in 
> Iraq Center;  Fellowship of Reconciliation, Seattle Chapter;  
> Filipino Workers Action Center;  Gray Panthers;  Ground Zero 
> Center for Nonviolent Action;  Interfaith Network of Concern 
> for the People of Iraq;  International Socialist 
> Organization;  Jam for Justice;  Jubilee Northwest;  Mental 
> Health Association of Washington;  Mothers for Police 
> Accountability;  Northwest Disarmament Coalition;  Palestine 
> Information Project;  Palestine Solidarity Committee;  Peace 
> & Justice Alliance;  Seattle/Cuba Friendship Committee;  
> Seattle International Human Rights Coalition;  Social 
> Justice Law Center;  Trinity United Methodist Church;  
> United Nations Association/Seattle;  University of 
> Washington Muslim Students Association;  University Temple 
> United Methodist Church;  Washington Association of 
> Churches;  Washington Physicians for Social Responsibility ;  
> Washington State Communist Party;  Western Division of the 
> Sisters of St. Joseph's of Peace;  Whitman Campus Greens;  
> Whitman Insurgency
> 
> for more "A20" (and many other) events, see 
> http://www.scn.org/activism/calendar
> 
> =================================================
> 
> IF you got this message directly from bb369 at scn.org, 
> you got this message because you were on the 
> Seattle 911 Peace Coalition list.  if you do not want 
> to be on this list, please let us know!
> 
> 
> 


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From emailer1 at netzero.net  Wed Apr 17 00:53:01 2002
From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:53:01 -0700
Subject: SCN: Fw: E-MAILS  PLEASE READ
Message-ID: <001101c1e5fe$f26f0320$7152fea9@desktop>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: BJoh102392 at aol.com 
To: HughesB007 at aol.com ; Kayceeberry at aol.com ; calwil25 at yahoo.com ; dafulcher at yahoo.com ; meemaw1 at swbell.net ; Mdk500 at aol.com ; wlb1937 at swbell.net ; ljbates at rockdale.k12.ga.us ; Patleut at aol.com ; cmacie at bellsouth.net ; brumby2361 at yahoo.com ; penderpat at mindspring.com ; jandssloan at mindspring.com ; TommyRamona at aol.com ; STRAIL4 at cs.com ; pyancey at att.net 
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 6:30 PM
Subject: Fwd: E-MAILS PLEASE READ



, 
   



Folks, please read this and send to everyone you know that uses email and send an email or letter to your government offical.   Bette 





  Linda A. Henry, Systems Analyst 
  Office of Financial Management 
  International Trade Administration 
  14th & Const. Ave., NW, HCH 4112 
  Washington, DC 20230 
  202-482-5343 
  202-482-5584 (fax) 
  linda_henry at ita.doc.gov 

  Other OFM sites to visit: 
  ITA Domestic Financial Coding Pattern 
  www.ita.doc.gov/ofm_guidance/domestic.htm 


  Received: from monroe.OSNET.OSEC.DOC.GOV 
     ([204.193.249.56]) 
     by ita.doc.gov; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 12:12:34 -0500 
  Received: from jackson.OSNET.OSEC.DOC.GOV ([204.193.249.58]) 
           by monroe.OSNET.OSEC.DOC.GOV (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.9a) 
           with ESMTP id 2002030712135005:20480 ; 
           Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:13:50 -0500 

      

  Subject:  Fwd: Fw: Bill 602P 

  Guess the warnings were true.  Federal Bill 602P 5-cents per E-mail sent. 
  It figures!No more free E-mail!We knew this was coming!! Bill 602P will 
  permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent charge on every delivered 
  E-mail. 
  Please read the following carefully if you intend to stay online and 
  continue using E-mail.  The last few months have revealed an alarming trend 
  in the 
  Government of the United States attempting to quietly push through 
  legislation that will affect our use of the Internet. 

  Under proposed legislation, the US Postal Service will be attempting to 
  bill E-mail users out of "alternative postage fees." 

  Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent surcharge 
  on every e-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source. 
  The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP. 

  Washington DC lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent this 
  legislation from becoming law. 

  The US Postal Service is claiming lost revenue, due to the proliferation of 
  E-mail, is costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. You may have 
  noticed their recent ad campaign: "There is nothing like a letter." 

  Since the average person received about 10 pieces of E-mail per day in 
  1998,the cost of the typical individual would be an additional 50 cents a 
  day -- 
  or over $180 per year -- above and beyond their regular Internet costs. 
  Note that this would be money paid directly to the US Postal Service for a 
  service they do not even provide. 

  The whole point of the Internet is democracy and noninterference. You are 
  already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic 
  inefficiency.  It currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered 
  from coast to coast.  If the US Postal Service is allowed to tinker with 
  E-mail, it will mark the end of the "free" Internet in the United States. 

  Congressional representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a 
  "$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the 
  governments proposed E-mail charges.  Note that most of the major 
  newspapers have 
  ignored the story the only exception being the Washingtonian which called 
  the idea 
  of E-mail surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" (March 6th, 1999 
  Editorial).  Do not sit by and watch your freedom erode away! 

  Send this E-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and tell all your friends and 
  relatives to write their congressional representative and say "NO" to Bill 
  602P. 
  It will only take a few moments of your time and could very well be 
  instrumental in killing a bill we do not want. 

  PLEASE FORWARD 










  - 

        
          
         
          
         
       






-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.scn.org/pipermail/scn/attachments/20020417/87aa9568/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Val Archer <valarcher1 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Fwd: E-MAILS
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 04:12:30 -0800 (PST)
Size: 10081
URL: <https://lists.scn.org/pipermail/scn/attachments/20020417/87aa9568/attachment.eml>

From douglas at scn.org  Wed Apr 17 06:28:43 2002
From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 06:28:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Fw: E-MAILS  PLEASE READ
In-Reply-To: <001101c1e5fe$f26f0320$7152fea9@desktop>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.4.20.0204170628090.17613-100000@scn.scn.org>


If I had to say one way or the other I'd say that this note
is a hoax.

-- Doug

   ******************************************************************
   *     SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY                                *
   *          Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change        *
   *                  http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02        *
   * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure        *
   *   is being shaped today.                                       *
   *                              But by whom and to what ends?     *
   * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org                                *
   ******************************************************************


On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, emailer1 wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: BJoh102392 at aol.com 
> To: HughesB007 at aol.com ; Kayceeberry at aol.com ; calwil25 at yahoo.com ; dafulcher at yahoo.com ; meemaw1 at swbell.net ; Mdk500 at aol.com ; wlb1937 at swbell.net ; ljbates at rockdale.k12.ga.us ; Patleut at aol.com ; cmacie at bellsouth.net ; brumby2361 at yahoo.com ; penderpat at mindspring.com ; jandssloan at mindspring.com ; TommyRamona at aol.com ; STRAIL4 at cs.com ; pyancey at att.net 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 6:30 PM
> Subject: Fwd: E-MAILS PLEASE READ
> 
> 
> 
> , 
>    
> 
> 
> 
> Folks, please read this and send to everyone you know that uses email and send an email or letter to your government offical.   Bette 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Linda A. Henry, Systems Analyst 
>   Office of Financial Management 
>   International Trade Administration 
>   14th & Const. Ave., NW, HCH 4112 
>   Washington, DC 20230 
>   202-482-5343 
>   202-482-5584 (fax) 
>   linda_henry at ita.doc.gov 
> 
>   Other OFM sites to visit: 
>   ITA Domestic Financial Coding Pattern 
>   www.ita.doc.gov/ofm_guidance/domestic.htm 
> 
> 
>   Received: from monroe.OSNET.OSEC.DOC.GOV 
>      ([204.193.249.56]) 
>      by ita.doc.gov; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 12:12:34 -0500 
>   Received: from jackson.OSNET.OSEC.DOC.GOV ([204.193.249.58]) 
>            by monroe.OSNET.OSEC.DOC.GOV (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.9a) 
>            with ESMTP id 2002030712135005:20480 ; 
>            Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:13:50 -0500 
> 
>       
> 
>   Subject:  Fwd: Fw: Bill 602P 
> 
>   Guess the warnings were true.  Federal Bill 602P 5-cents per E-mail sent. 
>   It figures!No more free E-mail!We knew this was coming!! Bill 602P will 
>   permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent charge on every delivered 
>   E-mail. 
>   Please read the following carefully if you intend to stay online and 
>   continue using E-mail.  The last few months have revealed an alarming trend 
>   in the 
>   Government of the United States attempting to quietly push through 
>   legislation that will affect our use of the Internet. 
> 
>   Under proposed legislation, the US Postal Service will be attempting to 
>   bill E-mail users out of "alternative postage fees." 
> 
>   Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent surcharge 
>   on every e-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source. 
>   The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP. 
> 
>   Washington DC lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent this 
>   legislation from becoming law. 
> 
>   The US Postal Service is claiming lost revenue, due to the proliferation of 
>   E-mail, is costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. You may have 
>   noticed their recent ad campaign: "There is nothing like a letter." 
> 
>   Since the average person received about 10 pieces of E-mail per day in 
>   1998,the cost of the typical individual would be an additional 50 cents a 
>   day -- 
>   or over $180 per year -- above and beyond their regular Internet costs. 
>   Note that this would be money paid directly to the US Postal Service for a 
>   service they do not even provide. 
> 
>   The whole point of the Internet is democracy and noninterference. You are 
>   already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic 
>   inefficiency.  It currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered 
>   from coast to coast.  If the US Postal Service is allowed to tinker with 
>   E-mail, it will mark the end of the "free" Internet in the United States. 
> 
>   Congressional representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a 
>   "$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the 
>   governments proposed E-mail charges.  Note that most of the major 
>   newspapers have 
>   ignored the story the only exception being the Washingtonian which called 
>   the idea 
>   of E-mail surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" (March 6th, 1999 
>   Editorial).  Do not sit by and watch your freedom erode away! 
> 
>   Send this E-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and tell all your friends and 
>   relatives to write their congressional representative and say "NO" to Bill 
>   602P. 
>   It will only take a few moments of your time and could very well be 
>   instrumental in killing a bill we do not want. 
> 
>   PLEASE FORWARD 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   - 
> 
>         
>           
>          
>           
>          
>        
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From donlogs at cablespeed.com  Wed Apr 17 08:49:46 2002
From: donlogs at cablespeed.com (Don Logsdon)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:49:46 -0700
Subject: SCN: Re: Fw: E-MAILS  PLEASE READ
References: <001101c1e5fe$f26f0320$7152fea9@desktop>
Message-ID: <000e01c1e627$81fdee20$6401a8c0@cablespeed.com>

This is a hoax --

and a very poor one at that.
You should apologise to the people you sent this to..
and you should go back and tell the person who sent it to you.


> ------------ start of quote ---------
...
  Guess the warnings were true.  Federal Bill 602P 5-cents per E-mail sent.
...

------------------ end of quote --------->

There is no such thing as a Federal Bill -
Federal legislation is either in a House Bill (HB-)
or a Senate Bill (SB-)

There are plenty of real things to worry about without spreading this
kind of false propaganda..

Don Logsdon
(206) 521-9086

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jj at scn.org  Wed Apr 17 10:19:49 2002
From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 10:19:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Fw: E-MAILS  PLEASE READ
In-Reply-To: <001101c1e5fe$f26f0320$7152fea9@desktop>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020417100730.28086C-100000@scn>

Gulliblly trusting everything you read, and breathlessly forwarding it to
everyone you know, is characteristic of rank newbies (or idiots), and one
of the things we tried hard to prevent in the e-mail classes.

For all of emailer1's self-important pomposity he's sitll a newbie.

=== JJ =============================================================

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From munibach04 at justice.com  Wed Apr 17 16:52:10 2002
From: munibach04 at justice.com (munibach01@justice.com )
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:52:10
Subject: SCN: FROM ME "wife of a late friend"
Message-ID: <200204180403.VAA20448@scn.org>

I am Mrs Munirat Abacha, the wife of Mohammed 
Abacha, the son of the late head of state of Federal 
Republic of Nigeria – General Sani Abacha. I am 
contacting you in view of the fact that we will be of 
great assistance to each other like wise
developingacordial relationship.  
My husband along with his late father looted over one
hundred and fifty million (U$150m ) united
statesdollars in Nigeria 
Government fortunately. Mohammed my husband has ELEVEN
million and Eight hundred thousand united states 
Dollars cash (US$11.8m),which he intended to use for
investment purpose overseas. This money is kept in a
private erected security safe in my village. It is
only my husband and my self that know where
themoneyiskept.   
Due to the current situation in the country concerning
government attitude towards my family, it has become 
quite impossible for us to make use of this money 
within, thus, we seek your assistance to transfer this
money out of Nigeria. My family is currently being 
probed by this present government for our alleged 
involvement in misappropriation of public funds during
my father – in – law’s regime.  
Towards this effect, an embargo restricting my family 
members on financial transaction have been placed on 
us and it is in force. Right now, my husband ( 
Mohammed ) was arrested and is being defined  in 
connection to the above and other activities of our 
late father. No record ever existed concerning this 
money, neither is the money traceable by the 
government because there is no documentation 
concerning the funds in the Federal Treasury.  
Bearing in mind that your assistance is needed to 
transfer this fund, we propose a commission of 10 % 
(Ten Percent ) of the total sum to you for the 
expected service and assistance. On
yourpositiveconsent.   
I shall expect you to contact me urgently to enable us
discuss about this transaction.  
Your urgent response is highly needed. I must use this
opportunity to implore you to exercise utmost 
indulgence to keep this matter extraordinary 
confidential, while I await your prompt response. 

Best regards   

Mrs MUNIRAT ABACHA.      

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jj at scn.org  Thu Apr 18 01:06:04 2002
From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 01:06:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Why so much spam?
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020418010405.29132D-100000@scn>

A question I seem to be hearing more in recent months is:  "why am I
getting so much spam?"  Roughly speaking, there are two answers.

First, spam is being sent directly to various SCN lists because they
were posted on a web page, and subsequently harvested by spammers.
There is not much we can do about that now, except fighting spam
generally.

The second answer is:  because the systems that constitute the Internet
still have holes the spammers can exploit to hide their identities.
And unfortunately, until two days ago SCN was part of the problem:  we
had a CGI script (FormMail.pl) with a widely known vulnerability,
which was being used to pump spam into the Internet.  We have disabled
that script, but it is still available on many other systems.  

There has been a long running contention in SCN that we should
maximize services, regardless of cost or consequence, that security
and other allegedly specious considerations should always yield to
maximizing services and user friendliness.  Well, one of the
consequences of slack security is--spam.

Fortunately, it does not have to be all or nothing.  It is possible to
provide a reasonable suite of user services without egregious security
blunders.  However, it does take a lot of work (yikes!), and a certain
amount of discipline (a quality not heretofore notable here).  And we
are making progress.  But there is a lot of work to be done, so relief
from spam is going to take a while.

=== JJ =============================================================

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jj at scn.org  Thu Apr 18 01:08:08 2002
From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 01:08:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: emailer1, a.k.a. Rich Littleton
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020418010645.29132F-100000@scn>

Ah!  It appears that 'emailer1' is indeed the infamous Rich Littleton,
who sued various people at SCN because he was dropped from e-mail
training.  And who is in default of a promise made when he ran for the
Board to post the complaint of his suit, so that the folks on this
list could judge for themselves what he was bitching about.  So
lacking any other information we will just have to rely on the fact
that he lost the suit.

And 'emailer1' is just a charade to evade the odor of a bad repuation.

=== JJ =============================================================

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From emailer1 at netzero.net  Thu Apr 18 02:04:26 2002
From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 02:04:26 -0700
Subject: SCN: Re: Fw: E-MAILS  PLEASE READ
References: <001101c1e5fe$f26f0320$7152fea9@desktop> <000e01c1e627$81fdee20$6401a8c0@cablespeed.com>
Message-ID: <004a01c1e6b9$65d54b20$7152fea9@desktop>

Don,

There was no part of the message to which you objected.  I don't know what
you are referring to.

----- Original Message -----
From: Don Logsdon <donlogs at cablespeed.com>
To: emailer1 <emailer1 at netzero.net>
Cc: SCN Supporters <scn at scn.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: E-MAILS PLEASE READ


> This is a hoax --
>
> and a very poor one at that.
> You should apologise to the people you sent this to..
> and you should go back and tell the person who sent it to you.
>
>
> > ------------ start of quote ---------
> ...
>   Guess the warnings were true.  Federal Bill 602P 5-cents per E-mail
sent.
> ...
>
> ------------------ end of quote --------->
>
> There is no such thing as a Federal Bill -
> Federal legislation is either in a House Bill (HB-)
> or a Senate Bill (SB-)
>
> There are plenty of real things to worry about without spreading this
> kind of false propaganda..
>
> Don Logsdon
> (206) 521-9086
>
>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From emailer1 at netzero.net  Thu Apr 18 02:06:15 2002
From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 02:06:15 -0700
Subject: SCN: Fw: E-MAILS  PLEASE READ
References: <Pine.SUN.4.20.0204170628090.17613-100000@scn.scn.org>
Message-ID: <004c01c1e6b9$6f5ba5e0$7152fea9@desktop>

Ah-ha!  Now I know what Don objected to.

Sorry, if this was not accurate.  I'll check up on it.

----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Schuler <douglas at scn.org>
To: emailer1 <emailer1 at netzero.net>
Cc: <scn at scn.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: SCN: Fw: E-MAILS PLEASE READ


>
> If I had to say one way or the other I'd say that this note
> is a hoax.
>
> -- Doug
>
>    ******************************************************************
>    *     SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY                                *
>    *          Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change        *
>    *                  http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02        *
>    * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure        *
>    *   is being shaped today.                                       *
>    *                              But by whom and to what ends?     *
>    * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org                                *
>    ******************************************************************
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, emailer1 wrote:
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: BJoh102392 at aol.com
> > To: HughesB007 at aol.com ; Kayceeberry at aol.com ; calwil25 at yahoo.com ;
dafulcher at yahoo.com ; meemaw1 at swbell.net ; Mdk500 at aol.com ;
wlb1937 at swbell.net ; ljbates at rockdale.k12.ga.us ; Patleut at aol.com ;
cmacie at bellsouth.net ; brumby2361 at yahoo.com ; penderpat at mindspring.com ;
jandssloan at mindspring.com ; TommyRamona at aol.com ; STRAIL4 at cs.com ;
pyancey at att.net
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 6:30 PM
> > Subject: Fwd: E-MAILS PLEASE READ
> >
> >
> >
> > ,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Folks, please read this and send to everyone you know that uses email
and send an email or letter to your government offical.   Bette
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   Linda A. Henry, Systems Analyst
> >   Office of Financial Management
> >   International Trade Administration
> >   14th & Const. Ave., NW, HCH 4112
> >   Washington, DC 20230
> >   202-482-5343
> >   202-482-5584 (fax)
> >   linda_henry at ita.doc.gov
> >
> >   Other OFM sites to visit:
> >   ITA Domestic Financial Coding Pattern
> >   www.ita.doc.gov/ofm_guidance/domestic.htm
> >
> >
> >   Received: from monroe.OSNET.OSEC.DOC.GOV
> >      ([204.193.249.56])
> >      by ita.doc.gov; Thu, 07 Mar 2002 12:12:34 -0500
> >   Received: from jackson.OSNET.OSEC.DOC.GOV ([204.193.249.58])
> >            by monroe.OSNET.OSEC.DOC.GOV (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.9a)
> >            with ESMTP id 2002030712135005:20480 ;
> >            Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:13:50 -0500
> >
> >
> >
> >   Subject:  Fwd: Fw: Bill 602P
> >
> >   Guess the warnings were true.  Federal Bill 602P 5-cents per E-mail
sent.
> >   It figures!No more free E-mail!We knew this was coming!! Bill 602P
will
> >   permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent charge on every
delivered
> >   E-mail.
> >   Please read the following carefully if you intend to stay online and
> >   continue using E-mail.  The last few months have revealed an alarming
trend
> >   in the
> >   Government of the United States attempting to quietly push through
> >   legislation that will affect our use of the Internet.
> >
> >   Under proposed legislation, the US Postal Service will be attempting
to
> >   bill E-mail users out of "alternative postage fees."
> >
> >   Bill 602P will permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent
surcharge
> >   on every e-mail delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at
source.
> >   The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP.
> >
> >   Washington DC lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent
this
> >   legislation from becoming law.
> >
> >   The US Postal Service is claiming lost revenue, due to the
proliferation of
> >   E-mail, is costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. You may
have
> >   noticed their recent ad campaign: "There is nothing like a letter."
> >
> >   Since the average person received about 10 pieces of E-mail per day in
> >   1998,the cost of the typical individual would be an additional 50
cents a
> >   day --
> >   or over $180 per year -- above and beyond their regular Internet
costs.
> >   Note that this would be money paid directly to the US Postal Service
for a
> >   service they do not even provide.
> >
> >   The whole point of the Internet is democracy and noninterference. You
are
> >   already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of
bureaucratic
> >   inefficiency.  It currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to be
delivered
> >   from coast to coast.  If the US Postal Service is allowed to tinker
with
> >   E-mail, it will mark the end of the "free" Internet in the United
States.
> >
> >   Congressional representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested a
> >   "$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond
the
> >   governments proposed E-mail charges.  Note that most of the major
> >   newspapers have
> >   ignored the story the only exception being the Washingtonian which
called
> >   the idea
> >   of E-mail surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" (March 6th,
1999
> >   Editorial).  Do not sit by and watch your freedom erode away!
> >
> >   Send this E-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and tell all your friends
and
> >   relatives to write their congressional representative and say "NO" to
Bill
> >   602P.
> >   It will only take a few moments of your time and could very well be
> >   instrumental in killing a bill we do not want.
> >
> >   PLEASE FORWARD
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   -
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From hotstocks at yahoo.co.jp  Thu Apr 18 08:59:26 2002
From: hotstocks at yahoo.co.jp (hotstocks at yahoo.co.jp)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 23:59:26 +0800
Subject: SCN: Invest to Win
Message-ID: <200204181556.IAA10297@scn.org>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.scn.org/pipermail/scn/attachments/20020418/b8659d68/attachment.html>

From steve at advocate.net  Fri Apr 19 16:00:13 2002
From: steve at advocate.net (Steve)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 16:00:13 -0700
Subject: SCN: Censorship
Message-ID: <3CC03F0D.14621.3B76F0B@localhost>

x-no-archive: yes

==================


Andrew Stroehlein, head of training, Institute for War and Peace 
Reporting, writes regularly about Internet censorship in 
authoritarian regimes

(Online Journalism Review)---A decade or so ago, it was all clear: 
the Internet was believed to be such a revolutionary new medium, 
so inherently empowering and democratizing, that old authoritarian 
regimes would crumble before it. What we've learned in the 
intervening years is that the Internet does not inevitably lead to 
democracy any more than it inevitably leads to great wealth.  

The idea that the Internet itself is a threat to authoritarian regimes 
was a bit of delusional post-Cold War optimism. It is true that many 
activists and journalists have brought their struggle for democracy, 
the rule of law and freedom of expression to the new medium, but 
they have not been blessed by inevitable victory, and plenty of 
nasty regimes have learned how to co-exist with the Internet in one 
way or another. 

In country after country, the same old struggle goes on: hard-line 
regimes and their opponents remain locked in battle, and the 
Internet has become simply one more forum for their fight.  

Repressive regimes are paranoid by nature. Those in power see 
enemies everywhere and encourage mass paranoia, 
overemphasizing threats to national security in order to justify their 
draconian rule. When early Web-heads equated the Internet with 
inevitable democracy, paranoia-prone regimes were natural 
suckers for the idea.  

"The Web really does scare these regimes," Veronica Forwood 
told me. Forwood is the UK Representative for Reporters without 
Borders, the publisher of the excellent "Enemies of the Internet" 
report, outlining the situation in many regimes around the world, 
"They want to control everything, and the Web seems so nebulous 
and unknowable to them, they are just frightened by it."  

Indeed, many repressive states see the Internet as such a threat 
that they simply ban it altogether. The former regime in Taliban-
controlled Afghanistan and North Korea are two cases of a 
complete ban, though it is known that a few very high-ranking 
ministers in each regime have had access to e-mail at least.  

Another particularly harsh example is Burma. A. Lin Neumann, Asia 
Consultant for the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) and 
author of an excellent recent report on press freedom in Burma, 
explained to me that the military junta in Rangoon effectively 
prevents public Internet access in the country. One needs a permit 
for a modem, and though a few people have them illegally, long-
distance calls for foreign access are prohibitively expensive. The 
tiny number of government-approved e-mail accounts are all 
monitored by censors, and the high price of those accounts again 
keeps most ordinary citizens away in any case.  

Relying on high access costs as a de facto censor is an easy trick 
for regimes, as they generally lord over desperately poor countries. 
As we previously discussed here in OJR, Uzbekistan is a perfect 
example. In true Soviet style, the authorities in Tashkent have set 
up the technical infrastructure so that they have the capability to 
monitor e-mails and Web browsing, but it seems they don't actually 
interfere that much just yet, because they know the price of access 
means that only a tiny fraction of the population are online, an 
insignificant fraction apparently in the authorities' view.  

But an all-out ban and relying on high access costs are hardly the 
only methods of keeping control over online information. Despite 
the theory behind the Internet's built-in anti-censorship 
architecture, official control is actually very possible in practice, 
especially as the regimes run the telecommunications 
infrastructure when the country comes online.  

In Iraq the regime is trying to use the Internet to its own advantage 
while cutting off access to the public. The Internet is accessible 
from some government ministries, but since, like Burma, one needs 
special permission to own a modem, home access is limited to the 
most trusted members of the ruling elite.  

The situation in Cuba is little better. The government allows 
access at approved institutions, including trusted firms and 
universities. Private access at home is nearly non-existent, and the 
government is setting up a Cuba-only intranet for young people, to 
keep their activity corralled in an easily controlled space. The 
overall effect of these efforts, according to a detailed report by the 
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, is that, "there is 
essentially no legal, commercially available public access to the 
Internet" in Cuba.  

Some repressive regimes, however, realizing that the new 
technology can have some positive benefits for society at large, 
have developed a more sophisticated approach to the Internet, 
attempting to allow widespread access and yet maintain control 
over it. China has tens of millions of Internet users and has easily 
one of the fastest growing online populations in the world. Still, the 
authorities' control points are several. Chinese chatrooms, for 
example, are monitored and comments offensive to the regime are 
removed quickly by the moderators.  

Much more importantly, though, is the Chinese government's ability 
to censor material coming in from outside China. All external 
information runs through government servers, so the authorities 
can and do block outside Web sites they deem potentially 
dangerous. A report by CPJ in January of last year notes that the 
main targets for blocking are Western news sites, Chinese 
dissident sites, Taiwanese media and sites of the banned religious 
group, Falun Gong. 

But the CPJ Report also observed how inconsistent the blocking 
can be, and this point is backed up by this writer's experience. On 
a recent trip to China, I did a little test of my own in an Internet 
cafe: US sites cnn.com and time.com were blocked, but UK sites 
for The Guardian  and The Independent newspapers, both with 
plenty of articles critical of Beijing, were easily accessible.  

It is, however, probably not as random as it appears, and the 
Chinese authorities have blocked a huge number of sites, most 
likely paying more attention to those sites they feel are better 
known to Chinese users. Certainly, the authorities' overall control 
can be in no doubt, exemplified by the fact that their blocking can 
be turned on and off at will: during last October's APEC meeting in 
Shanghai, the Chinese authorities temporarily lifted their blocks of 
some American Web sites as a sop to foreign delegates.  

As CPJ's A. Lin Neumann told me: "Chinese blocking is reasonably 
effective on their part. It takes some determination to get around it, 
and I doubt that many people want to really play the game. Most of 
the students I talked with, quite frankly, were more interested in 
sex, computer games and English proficiency (in that order) than 
they were in politics on the Internet."  

While it's true some editors try to stay one step ahead of the 
blockers by constantly setting up new proxy sites, that kind of cat-
and-mouse routine, forcing the reader to waste time keeping up 
with frequent address changes, only benefits the censors.  

While access to the outside world is significantly limited in China 
through extensive and complex blocking, the authorities have a 
much easier time controlling what is published within China. As in 
many heavy-handed regimes, self-censorship is the key factor in 
China: editors of Web sites inside China know well the limits of 
what is acceptable and what is not, and it only takes a few tough 
arrests and harsh crackdowns to send a clear signal to Web 
journalists and activists everywhere. The infamous persecution of 
online publisher Huang Qi is probably enough to keep most 
Chinese Web editors in line.  

This "let that be a lesson to you all" tactic is as old as man, but 
even with the newest technology it still works -- and is a typical 
ploy even in regimes that are generally considered less repressive 
than China. Umit Ozturk, vice-chair of Amnesty International's 
Journalists' Network, explained to me how this works in Turkey. In 
Turkey, if a Web site publishes something the military-dominated 
state finds unacceptable, the ISP's will receive a quick visit or a 
phone call from someone "suggesting" the immediate removal of 
that site. Failure to do so would be very detrimental to one's health, 
so the ISPs naturally comply.  

When the optimists spoke of inevitable freedom through the 
Internet a few years back, they forgot about such crude and 
effective methods of information control.  

With such personal threats at home, it's not difficult to see why 
some online journalists and activists chose to work in exile. There 
are problems with this approach, obviously -- their online 
information might be blocked at home, many potential readers will 
not be able to afford access to their site and their critics will always 
accuse them of being stooges of foreign governments - but for 
some the benefit of being able to tell the truth outweighs these 
concerns.  

The main problem of running a Web site in exile is maintaining 
local relevance and authenticity when writing from abroad. In the 
worst cases this means either heavily working the phones to your 
contacts on the ground, or, where phone-tapping is a concern, the 
smuggling of documentation out of the country. 

On the face of it, that would seem to be little advancement on the 
tedious and dangerous methods of the Communist-era dissidents. 
Still, when it works, it can bring the only non-regime-sponsored 
information to the outside world and offers a unique eye on closed 
societies. The work of the Revolutionary Association of the Women 
of Afghanistan in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan was certainly one 
of the best examples of such activity the Internet has ever seen.  

In less restrictive situations, the Internet itself is the networking 
tool, and e-mail allows émigré publishing to be current from the 
ground in a way that Iron Curtain dissidents never could be. Even 
then, however, expanding a network of correspondents on the 
ground is not always straightforward, and the specifics of the local 
culture and local regime need to be considered.  

My own Institute for War and Peace Reporting is familiar with this 
problem. The editors of our online publications covering post-
Soviet Central Asia, Afghanistan and the Balkans are all emigre 
journalists in London who develop their networks on the ground 
according to the possibilities in individual countries. In Uzbekistan, 
for example, the situation is relaxed enough for us to have a 
physical office in Tashkent and a rather normal network of 
correspondents radiating out from it. 

In Turkmenistan, however, the situation is significantly more 
complicated for us. Forget a physical office: all our reporters on the 
ground communicate directly via e-mail with our central office in 
London. Trying to build a normal network there would only attract 
informants who would turn in all our associates, so we keep our 
correspondents on the ground isolated from one another. They 
wouldn't recognize each other if they sat next to one another on a 
bus in downtown Ashghabat.  

But even if you have a developed network of correspondents on 
the ground, that doesn't mean that people will feel comfortable 
talking to them. When fear so thoroughly permeates society, 
mouths stay closed.  

In some cases, however, the subject matter is so potentially 
damaging to people's lives that they are able to overcome their 
fear of the authorities. The work of the Three Gorges Probe, a 
Web-site in Canada dedicated to discussing the controversial 
Three Gorges dam project in China, provides an interesting 
example of this. Publisher Patricia Adams was reluctant to discuss 
the details of her network on the ground, but she told me that 
ordinary people in the region are very eager to talk to TGP 
correspondents about the dam, as they genuinely hope their 
concerns will be addressed. Their willingness to talk is 
understandable; after all, many of them are the ones being 
resettled by the dam project.  

The Three Gorges Probe Web site highlights another particular 
problem of this genre: oftentimes, the line between journalism and 
activism becomes fuzzy -- to the detriment of the reader seeking 
objective information. Adams insists Three Gorges Probe is pure 
journalism, but it is pretty clear that the site offers a mostly critical 
view of the project. While that may be a justifiable editorial policy 
intended to counter all the official information on the dam project, 
many émigré sites have very serious problems with balance.  

Amnesty International's Umit Ozturk sees this as unfortunate in the 
Turkish case but admits, "It couldn't be any other way." Most 
Turkish and Kurdish émigré sites are run by "activist reporters," 
people who care so passionately about their cause that objectivity 
takes a back seat in their online efforts.  

Veronica Forwood of Reporters without Borders, however, says it 
depends on the background of the editors. Those who come from 
a strong journalism background usually try to maintain a sense of 
balance and concentrate on on-the-ground reporting rather than 
commentary.  

Interestingly, there is now serious talk in U.K. NGO circles of 
creating a non-profit project specifically designed to help émigré 
journalists establish Web sites with local correspondent networks 
for the people in their repressive regimes back home. The idea is 
to provide start-up funds as well as the technical expertise and 
journalism training needed to run an émigré Web site with real 
impact on the ground.  

That impact is the heart of the problem for all Web sites working 
within and around repressive regimes. For all the excited talk about 
the Internet bringing freedom, actual examples of online publishing 
bringing about change in these countries are few.  

In many ways, the Internet seems to fulfill the same role as 
samizdat did in Communist Czechoslovakia. Like that old dissident 
literature, the Internet in authoritarian regimes offers the only place 
for critical voices, but, sadly, it has little effect on the ground. 
Remember, despite the international fame of writers like Vaclav 
Havel, outside of a small circle of intellectuals in Prague, hardly 
anyone ever read samizdat within Communist Czechoslovakia. The 
Velvet Revolution emerged from direct action within a changed geo-
political atmosphere; decades of dissident carping had nothing to 
do with real change when the regime finally fell.  

As it was with samizdat, most people in authoritarian regimes never 
get a chance to see Internet publications, and the whole 
enterprise, both the publishing of banned information and official 
attempts to stop it, is more a game for elites: elite dissident 
intellectuals criticize elite rulers, and they argue back and forth in a 
virtual space. The opponents can score a few victories in that 
virtual space, but meanwhile, back in reality, little changes for the 
people on the ground.  

Some may find such a conclusion a bit pessimistic, especially 
coming from someone who works in the field of online journalism in 
these countries. But it is important to keep one's feet on the ground 
and neither underestimate the scope of the problem nor 
overestimate the ability of the medium.  

And there is some reason for cautious optimism. CPJ's A. Lin 
Neumann, for example, reminded me that, "elites, generally, tend 
to lead the movement toward change so the fact that the Internet is 
somewhat confined to elite communication in some places does 
not disqualify it as a change agent." Neumann points to China, 
saying that the Internet has had an effect on the ground there, 
leading, for instance, to greater impact of stories on corruption.  

Neumann also told me that the nature of the Internet means, "It is 
simply harder, even for the Burmese bad guys, to keep secrets 
from the world, because once information gets out it circulates 
widely."  

"Twenty years ago," he noted, "that information -- such as a secret 
arrest that is revealed through an underground contact -- would 
have to circulate by newsletters sent in the post; now it is on the 
desks of journalists and others within minutes."  


Copyright 1999-2002 Online Journalism Review





* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From douglas  Fri Apr 19 17:35:26 2002
From: douglas (Doug Schuler)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 17:35:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: reminder...
Message-ID: <200204200035.RAA02606@scn.org>

Sorry to be bugging you again...

I'm just trying to save you a few bucks!

Today is the last day for the *early* registration for the CPSR
conference conference next month at the University of Washington.  The
registration form and directions for submitting it are available at:
http://www.cpsr.org/store/diac02- form.html.  Get it in the mail today
or (maybe if you're lucky) tomorrow.

I will be sending out a note about *patterns* soon.  We still need
more!

Thanks for all the positive encouragement about this event.  It should
be insanely great!  (to borrow a phrase....)

-- Doug

   ******************************************************************
   *     SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY                                *
   *          Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change        *
   *                  http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02        *
   * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure        *
   *   is being shaped today.                                       *
   *                              But by whom and to what ends?     *
   * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org                                *
   ******************************************************************

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jj at scn.org  Fri Apr 19 22:04:18 2002
From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 22:04:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Thursday's system problems.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020419214655.4555B-100000@scn>

Thursday's system problems have been traced to a problem with a single
user's mail:  over 10,000 messages--large messages!--were received for
this one user.  This user has various e-mail accounts, and apparently set
up a forwarding loop; this clogged our communications and processes, and
one key process shutdown, which disabled logins for a while.  (An upgrade
of that process is planned.) 

It seems to me that this shows that the Internet still retains some of
it's original cooperative nature:  anyone can cause a wreck; the scarcity
of wrecks shows that cooperating is the norm.  

=== JJ =============================================================

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jj at scn.org  Fri Apr 19 22:17:47 2002
From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 22:17:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Forwarded mail....
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020419221652.12989B-100000@scn>


        Date: 11-31-88 (24:60)  Number: 32769
        To: ALL Refer#: NONE
        From: ROBERT MORRIS III Read: (N/A)
        Subj: VIRUS ALERT       Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE

        Warning: There's a new virus on the loose that's worse than
        anything I've seen before! It gets in through the power line,
        riding on the powerline 60 Hz subcarrier. It works by changing the
        serial port pinouts, and by reversing the direction one's disks
        spin. Over 300,000 systems have been hit by it here in Murphy,
        West Dakota alone! And that's just in the last 12 minutes.

        It attacks DOS, Unix, TOPS-20, Apple-II, VMS, MVS, Multics, Mac,
        RSX-11, ITS, TRS-80, and VHS systems.

        To prevent the spresd of the worm:

        1) Don't use the powerline.
        2) Don't use batteries either, since there are rumors that this
          virus has invaded most major battery plants and is infecting the
          positive poles of the batteries. (You might try hooking up just
          the negative pole.)
        3) Don't upload or download files.
        4) Don't store files on floppy disks or hard disks.
        5) Don't read messages. Not even this one!
        6) Don't use serial ports, modems, or phone lines.
        7) Don't use keyboards, screens, or printers.
        8) Don't use switches, CPUs, memories, microprocessors, or
          mainframes.
        9) Don't use electric lights, electric or gas heat or
          airconditioning, running water, writing, fire, clothing or the
          wheel.

        I'm sure if we are all careful to follow these 9 easy steps, this
        virus can be eradicated, and the precious electronic flui9ds of
        our computers can be kept pure.

        ---RTM III

  
See ==>  http://hoaxbusters.ciac.org/HoaxBustersHome.html

Read it NOW, before your batteries explode!

=== JJ =============================================================

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From GRT at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 20 20:22:27 2002
From: GRT at yahoo.com (GRT at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 21:02:27 -0580
Subject: SCN: toner cartridges
Message-ID: <9970C574-548E-11D6-83F1-0040055FF51D@SQIk935z>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.scn.org/pipermail/scn/attachments/20020420/10e02797/attachment.html>

From GRT at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 20 21:46:06 2002
From: GRT at yahoo.com (GRT at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 22:26:06 -0580
Subject: SCN: toner cartridges
Message-ID: <BDAF5C29-54A9-11D6-83F1-0040055FF51D@v7IKeMqC>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.scn.org/pipermail/scn/attachments/20020420/c10f3297/attachment.html>

From clariun at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 21 18:11:18 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 18:11:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: SCNA Annual Meeting for 2002
Message-ID: <20020422011118.32764.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com>

The SCNA Annual Meeting for 2002 will be held Wednesday, April 24, from 7 to 8:45 at
the University Branch of the Seattle Public Library. Contact scna-board at scn.org for
more information.

The University Branch is located at 50th and Roosevelt Avenue North. 3 blocks east
of the I-5 freeway exits at 50th.

Greg Nickels, Ron Simms, and Gary Locke will be there. 

Just kidding. But we could improvise with impersonations.

Thanks,
Patrick

=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 22 09:00:18 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:00:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: The Public Life of a Private Struggle
Message-ID: <20020422160018.66250.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>

There was an excellent article in the Op-Ed pages of the New York Times last week. I
found it online 
at NYTimes.com and here it is, along with a letter to the editor about the article.
The article written by 
Mariane Pearl, the widow of Daniel Pearl, the journalist who was kidnapped and
killed in Pakistan a 
month or two ago. The article gives a lot of insight into a world we only see from
what the media dishes 
out to us. It's just a wonderful article.


The Public Life of Private Struggles

April 19, 2002 

By MARIANE PEARL

PARIS 


I first learned about Pakistan's silent majority at a time
when most of the world found itself stunned and speechless
at the killing of thousands on Sept. 11. 

My husband, Danny, and I had arrived in Pakistan just after
the attacks. Pakistan was part of his beat as South Asia
bureau chief for The Wall Street Journal. We had no
apprehensions about being in a Muslim country. We had both
traveled throughout the Muslim world. Danny had just spent
five years covering the Middle East. As a girl, I had spent
my holidays with a friend in Algeria, and Islam, the
second-largest religion in France, was very much a part of
my childhood at home in Paris. 

Danny and I both wished we had been visiting Pakistan in a
quieter time. But there we were. At our first meeting we
heard from a group of women who advised the city of
Karachi. They expressed anger at Western reporters for
blaming the attacks on Muslim fundamentalists and Osama bin
Laden without proof. They asked us to think carefully about
our responsibilities as Westerners and as journalists. They
said they were lovers of peace and were deeply offended by
what they perceived as the West's attack on Islam. 

Next we traveled to Islamabad. At the Marriott hotel, you
could find every news outlet, from CNN to Serbian radio.
The journalists were there to cover a war they could not,
as yet, actually see. They speculated on the possibility of
a coup. Members of fundamentalist Muslim groups
demonstrated before the Marriott to display their anger.
You could take a close shot of the protesters as they
shouted against America and tell the public back home that
Pakistan was on the verge of a civil war. Or you could hunt
for another opinion, that of the moderates who were said to
be the democratic majority. 

Danny and I were told that most people did not share the
opinions of fundamentalists. But this reassuring voice of
the moderate majority was nowhere to be seen or heard. 

Danny and I kept talking with all sorts of people in
Pakistan. These conversations were honest and sincere; our
interlocutors talked about what they really felt. Some
blamed their country's troubles on corruption and previous
regimes. Others blamed India or the West, and sometimes
both. All expressed shame and anger at how terrorists and
their supporters had stolen Islam for their own purposes by
promoting hatred and violence. I, too, felt this sorrow for
Islam, though as a non-Muslim, and so did Danny. 

During the months that Danny and I spent in Pakistan, from
Peshawar to Islamabad and then Karachi, I became convinced
that all of us have to take responsibility for what is
happening in the world if we want to eradicate the causes
of terrorism, fascism and similar ideologies. Something new
has to happen, and everyday people have to be part of the
process. 

Both Danny and I knew better than to believe what the
fundamentalists were telling us about jihad. Jihad is the
name of a process that can be undertaken successfully only
by a courageous person. A jihadi fights with himself or
herself in what I, as a Buddhist, think of as a personal
revolution. It doesn't involve demonstrating in front of TV
cameras or murdering innocent people. It is a slow and
difficult process in which one seeks to overcome fears,
prejudices and limitations to defend justice and do
something that we call �panouir in French - allowing our
personalities to expand and blossom so that we can fully
contribute to society at large. 

I came to believe that only through such struggle - a true
jihad - could Pakistan address the core issues that the
fundamentalists use to manipulate people and exploit
ignorance. Education, freedom of expression and the
alleviation of poverty could no longer be considered a
government responsibility alone. Citizens had to find ways
to claim and defend their own rights. It was for the people
of Pakistan to decide where their country stands in the
global arena, and it was for the people of Pakistan to
shake off submissiveness and restore their country's
dignity. 

Then Danny was kidnapped. 

Neighbors shut their windows and front doors to me during
this crisis. I cannot really say of what they were afraid.
Was it the police? Gossip? Was it some earlier trauma? Was
it Pakistan's intelligence agencies? The terrorists?
Themselves? 

I prayed that the majority would not remain silent or
paralyzed by fears. I prayed that people would come out and
defend their faith and country - and defend their own
dignity by voicing their rejection of criminals determined
to destroy the future of Pakistan and the hope of its
citizens to live in peace. 

My prayers were realized in part. During this ordeal, I was
surrounded by individual Pakistanis and Muslims as
courageous and beautiful as those terrorists appeared ugly
and without souls. I can never be grateful enough for their
graciousness, a ray of hope in the midst of darkness. 

In the five weeks when I waited in Karachi for Danny to
come back to me and our unborn son, the Pakistani police
reported at least 11 killings of Shiite Muslims in Karachi
alone. Those slain were mostly doctors and professionals.
Sectarian terrorists were pursuing their work of
destruction. They were planting even deeper the seeds of
fear in the hearts of people, making the silence of the
majority even more painful to hear. Such fear and terror
can destroy a society. 

When I finally had to acknowledge Danny's bloody murder, I
decided not to leave Pakistan right away. I wanted to show
defiance against fear. In those days, absorbing the murder
of my husband, I received the most heartfelt letters of
support from all over the world. And finally I heard from
the majority in Pakistan as it abandoned silence. 

  
Pakistani people wrote to me about their feelings. "May God
give you strength. Danny's murderers are not Muslim and
should be brought to justice." They shared their shame with
me: "I am really saddened by the news and astonished that a
Pakistani brother can do this." There were beautiful
letters printed in Karachi's English-language weekly, The
Friday Times. "Danny Pearl is not just a dead American
journalist," a writer stated. "His suffering in our midst
has made him a martyr to the Pakistani people. He died
because Pakistan's enemies could not bear to see the
country retake the course of tolerance and moderation that
its founding father envisaged." 

Then I heard about a Web site in which Pakistanis bravely
signed their names to a letter of condolence. They wrote:
"We unequivocally condemn the perpetrators of this
enormity: they are a plague to Pakistan, and the majority
of her citizens would prefer to see their kind destroyed."
At last count, the signatories numbered 3,767. 

Pakistani letter writers had left aside prejudices and
appreciated my husband as an individual. One writer
commented, "Your husband had a great smile - a happy
mixture of Pope Paul and Dean Martin." 

Most captured the sentiments of a writer who called Danny's
murder "a crime against the people of Pakistan." These
voices give me the strength to believe that the hope of a
modern, strong Pakistan still lives and that the people of
Pakistan will help me see that justice is done. I'm told
there is a hadith, a saying of the Prophet Muhammad, that
tells Muslims that if they see an evil they should act to
remove the evil. If they cannot do that, they should speak
against the evil. If not that, then they must condemn the
evil in their hearts. 

The strongest expression, however, is to act against evil.


In memory of Danny and for the future of our son, who is
almost here, I also want to ask the people of Pakistan to
act upon the sentiments they have expressed and build a
memorial for Danny in Karachi. I will bring our son to this
memorial and tell him this is the land where his father
died, but that the people here stood by us so that his
death would not be in vain. 


Mariane Pearl, a freelance journalist, is writing a book
about her husband, Daniel Pearl.

----
Here is the response to her article:

To the Editor: 

Mariane Pearl ("Why Good Hearts Must Go Public," Op-Ed,
April 19) writes with an admirable sense of compassion and
understanding for the Pakistani people, despite the tragedy
that she has faced. 

She rightly asserts that there is a silent majority in
Pakistan that needs to speak up to steer the country on the
right path. Many other people in her situation would hate
all Pakistanis or Muslims. She, in essence, is extending an
arm out to the silent majority in Pakistan, which abhors
the actions of extremists. She has done much for the
Pakistani people by creating a precedent of choosing to
hear all the voices and not simply the few extremists. 

As a Pakistani-American, I read her words with awe, and I
hope to see her wishes for a Daniel Pearl memorial in
Karachi granted. 
AMINA RAFIQ 
Greenvale, N.Y., April 19, 2002






=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 22 12:49:31 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:49:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Why so much spam?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020418010405.29132D-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <20020422194931.64551.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>

The default setting should be: Taking down the mailing list pages.

Then, if someone wants to advertise their mailing list, they can do it on their web
site. If they don't have a web site and want lots of spam, we can post their mailing
lists on a new mailing lists page.

On top of that, the mailing lists page is a very labor-intensive operation.

I'm glad this topic came up and I thank JJ for mentioning it.

So, if anyone has an issue with the mailing lists page(s) going away, please let me
know and we will accommodate you. But the default setting is to not have mailing
lists posted on SCN.

Less work, less spam. Amazing how neatly that works.

Patrick


--- "J. Johnson" <jj at scn.org> wrote:
> A question I seem to be hearing more in recent months is:  "why am I
> getting so much spam?"  Roughly speaking, there are two answers.
> 
> First, spam is being sent directly to various SCN lists because they
> were posted on a web page, and subsequently harvested by spammers.
> There is not much we can do about that now, except fighting spam
> generally.
> 
> The second answer is:  because the systems that constitute the Internet
> still have holes the spammers can exploit to hide their identities.
> And unfortunately, until two days ago SCN was part of the problem:  we
> had a CGI script (FormMail.pl) with a widely known vulnerability,
> which was being used to pump spam into the Internet.  We have disabled
> that script, but it is still available on many other systems.  
> 
> There has been a long running contention in SCN that we should
> maximize services, regardless of cost or consequence, that security
> and other allegedly specious considerations should always yield to
> maximizing services and user friendliness.  Well, one of the
> consequences of slack security is--spam.
> 
> Fortunately, it does not have to be all or nothing.  It is possible to
> provide a reasonable suite of user services without egregious security
> blunders.  However, it does take a lot of work (yikes!), and a certain
> amount of discipline (a quality not heretofore notable here).  And we
> are making progress.  But there is a lot of work to be done, so relief
> from spam is going to take a while.
> 
> === JJ =============================================================
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From michaelh at scn.org  Mon Apr 22 13:53:39 2002
From: michaelh at scn.org (Michael Hanson)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:53:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Why so much spam?
In-Reply-To: <20020422194931.64551.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020422134341.13322A-100000@scn>


Why remove totally.  Certainly listings for the mailing lists of IP's
should be optional.  But it is important to publicize the existance of
mailing lists that discuss the operation of SCN. 

It is often difficult to find out what is going on in SCN.  If we want to
get people to pitch in and help out, we need to make the avenues of
communication available so they can find out how to find out what is
happening.  (Keeping the discussion lists hidden makes it even harder
to get new recruits.)

Perhaps, instead of removing the page totally, we could consider
simple obfuscation of the e-mail addresses.  (i.e. no mailto
link, write it out in text 
The following lists, all at scn.org:
policy    - explanation of purpose
services  - "            " "

Not quite as convenient for the user, but harvesting addresses from that
would be a major AI project. 

  Michael

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:

> The default setting should be: Taking down the mailing list pages.
> 
> Then, if someone wants to advertise their mailing list, they can do it on their web
> site. If they don't have a web site and want lots of spam, we can post their mailing
> lists on a new mailing lists page.
> 
> On top of that, the mailing lists page is a very labor-intensive operation.
> 
> I'm glad this topic came up and I thank JJ for mentioning it.
> 
> So, if anyone has an issue with the mailing lists page(s) going away, please let me
> know and we will accommodate you. But the default setting is to not have mailing
> lists posted on SCN.
> 
> Less work, less spam. Amazing how neatly that works.
> 
> Patrick
> 
> 
> --- "J. Johnson" <jj at scn.org> wrote:
> > A question I seem to be hearing more in recent months is:  "why am I
> > getting so much spam?"  Roughly speaking, there are two answers.
> > 
> > First, spam is being sent directly to various SCN lists because they
> > were posted on a web page, and subsequently harvested by spammers.
> > There is not much we can do about that now, except fighting spam
> > generally.
> > 
> > The second answer is:  because the systems that constitute the Internet
> > still have holes the spammers can exploit to hide their identities.
> > And unfortunately, until two days ago SCN was part of the problem:  we
> > had a CGI script (FormMail.pl) with a widely known vulnerability,
> > which was being used to pump spam into the Internet.  We have disabled
> > that script, but it is still available on many other systems.  
> > 
> > There has been a long running contention in SCN that we should
> > maximize services, regardless of cost or consequence, that security
> > and other allegedly specious considerations should always yield to
> > maximizing services and user friendliness.  Well, one of the
> > consequences of slack security is--spam.
> > 
> > Fortunately, it does not have to be all or nothing.  It is possible to
> > provide a reasonable suite of user services without egregious security
> > blunders.  However, it does take a lot of work (yikes!), and a certain
> > amount of discipline (a quality not heretofore notable here).  And we
> > are making progress.  But there is a lot of work to be done, so relief
> > from spam is going to take a while.
> > 
> > === JJ =============================================================
> > 
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 
> 
> =====
> Webmaster
> Seattle Community Network
> http://www.scn.org
> "Powering our communities with technology"
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> http://games.yahoo.com/
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 22 15:32:41 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 15:32:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Why so much spam?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020422134341.13322A-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <20020422223241.46337.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>

To clarify: The SCN-related mail lists would be listed. The IP and others who use
mailing lists would not, by default.

P


--- Michael Hanson <michaelh at scn.org> wrote:
> 
> Why remove totally.  Certainly listings for the mailing lists of IP's
> should be optional.  But it is important to publicize the existance of
> mailing lists that discuss the operation of SCN. 
> 
> It is often difficult to find out what is going on in SCN.  If we want to
> get people to pitch in and help out, we need to make the avenues of
> communication available so they can find out how to find out what is
> happening.  (Keeping the discussion lists hidden makes it even harder
> to get new recruits.)
> 
> Perhaps, instead of removing the page totally, we could consider
> simple obfuscation of the e-mail addresses.  (i.e. no mailto
> link, write it out in text 
> The following lists, all at scn.org:
> policy    - explanation of purpose
> services  - "            " "
> 
> Not quite as convenient for the user, but harvesting addresses from that
> would be a major AI project. 
> 
>   Michael
> 
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:
> 
> > The default setting should be: Taking down the mailing list pages.
> > 
> > Then, if someone wants to advertise their mailing list, they can do it on their
> web
> > site. If they don't have a web site and want lots of spam, we can post their
> mailing
> > lists on a new mailing lists page.
> > 
> > On top of that, the mailing lists page is a very labor-intensive operation.
> > 
> > I'm glad this topic came up and I thank JJ for mentioning it.
> > 
> > So, if anyone has an issue with the mailing lists page(s) going away, please let
> me
> > know and we will accommodate you. But the default setting is to not have mailing
> > lists posted on SCN.
> > 
> > Less work, less spam. Amazing how neatly that works.
> > 
> > Patrick
> > 
> > 
> > --- "J. Johnson" <jj at scn.org> wrote:
> > > A question I seem to be hearing more in recent months is:  "why am I
> > > getting so much spam?"  Roughly speaking, there are two answers.
> > > 
> > > First, spam is being sent directly to various SCN lists because they
> > > were posted on a web page, and subsequently harvested by spammers.
> > > There is not much we can do about that now, except fighting spam
> > > generally.
> > > 
> > > The second answer is:  because the systems that constitute the Internet
> > > still have holes the spammers can exploit to hide their identities.
> > > And unfortunately, until two days ago SCN was part of the problem:  we
> > > had a CGI script (FormMail.pl) with a widely known vulnerability,
> > > which was being used to pump spam into the Internet.  We have disabled
> > > that script, but it is still available on many other systems.  
> > > 
> > > There has been a long running contention in SCN that we should
> > > maximize services, regardless of cost or consequence, that security
> > > and other allegedly specious considerations should always yield to
> > > maximizing services and user friendliness.  Well, one of the
> > > consequences of slack security is--spam.
> > > 
> > > Fortunately, it does not have to be all or nothing.  It is possible to
> > > provide a reasonable suite of user services without egregious security
> > > blunders.  However, it does take a lot of work (yikes!), and a certain
> > > amount of discipline (a quality not heretofore notable here).  And we
> > > are making progress.  But there is a lot of work to be done, so relief
> > > from spam is going to take a while.
> > > 
> > > === JJ =============================================================
> > > 
> > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > > unsubscribe scn
> > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > 
> > 
> > =====
> > Webmaster
> > Seattle Community Network
> > http://www.scn.org
> > "Powering our communities with technology"
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> > http://games.yahoo.com/
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > 
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jmabel at speakeasy.org  Mon Apr 22 22:43:03 2002
From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 22:43:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Why so much spam?
In-Reply-To: <20020422194931.64551.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204222240300.25487-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>

I'm a little confused. I hate spam as much as the nexm guy -- probably more 
-- but given how much of SCN discussion happens on the mailing lists 
(scn at scn.org in particular), how are we going to encourage new people to become
involved if the mailing lists are not posted? 

That is not a rhetorical question.  Does anyone have any ideas?

--------------------
Joe Mabel

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:

> The default setting should be: Taking down the mailing list pages.
> 
> Then, if someone wants to advertise their mailing list, they can do it on their web
> site. If they don't have a web site and want lots of spam, we can post their mailing
> lists on a new mailing lists page.
> 
> On top of that, the mailing lists page is a very labor-intensive operation.
> 
> I'm glad this topic came up and I thank JJ for mentioning it.
> 
> So, if anyone has an issue with the mailing lists page(s) going away, please let me
> know and we will accommodate you. But the default setting is to not have mailing
> lists posted on SCN.
> 
> Less work, less spam. Amazing how neatly that works.
> 
> Patrick
> 
> 
> --- "J. Johnson" <jj at scn.org> wrote:
> > A question I seem to be hearing more in recent months is:  "why am I
> > getting so much spam?"  Roughly speaking, there are two answers.
> > 
> > First, spam is being sent directly to various SCN lists because they
> > were posted on a web page, and subsequently harvested by spammers.
> > There is not much we can do about that now, except fighting spam
> > generally.
> > 
> > The second answer is:  because the systems that constitute the Internet
> > still have holes the spammers can exploit to hide their identities.
> > And unfortunately, until two days ago SCN was part of the problem:  we
> > had a CGI script (FormMail.pl) with a widely known vulnerability,
> > which was being used to pump spam into the Internet.  We have disabled
> > that script, but it is still available on many other systems.  
> > 
> > There has been a long running contention in SCN that we should
> > maximize services, regardless of cost or consequence, that security
> > and other allegedly specious considerations should always yield to
> > maximizing services and user friendliness.  Well, one of the
> > consequences of slack security is--spam.
> > 
> > Fortunately, it does not have to be all or nothing.  It is possible to
> > provide a reasonable suite of user services without egregious security
> > blunders.  However, it does take a lot of work (yikes!), and a certain
> > amount of discipline (a quality not heretofore notable here).  And we
> > are making progress.  But there is a lot of work to be done, so relief
> > from spam is going to take a while.
> > 
> > === JJ =============================================================
> > 
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 
> 
> =====
> Webmaster
> Seattle Community Network
> http://www.scn.org
> "Powering our communities with technology"
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> http://games.yahoo.com/
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jmabel at speakeasy.org  Mon Apr 22 22:44:31 2002
From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 22:44:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Why so much spam?
In-Reply-To: <20020422223241.46337.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204222244110.25487-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>

Looks like my question has bsen answered.  Sorry for the out-of-sequence email.

--------------------
Joe Mabel

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:

> To clarify: The SCN-related mail lists would be listed. The IP and others who use
> mailing lists would not, by default.
> 
> P
> 
> 
> --- Michael Hanson <michaelh at scn.org> wrote:
> > 
> > Why remove totally.  Certainly listings for the mailing lists of IP's
> > should be optional.  But it is important to publicize the existance of
> > mailing lists that discuss the operation of SCN. 
> > 
> > It is often difficult to find out what is going on in SCN.  If we want to
> > get people to pitch in and help out, we need to make the avenues of
> > communication available so they can find out how to find out what is
> > happening.  (Keeping the discussion lists hidden makes it even harder
> > to get new recruits.)
> > 
> > Perhaps, instead of removing the page totally, we could consider
> > simple obfuscation of the e-mail addresses.  (i.e. no mailto
> > link, write it out in text 
> > The following lists, all at scn.org:
> > policy    - explanation of purpose
> > services  - "            " "
> > 
> > Not quite as convenient for the user, but harvesting addresses from that
> > would be a major AI project. 
> > 
> >   Michael
> > 
> > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:
> > 
> > > The default setting should be: Taking down the mailing list pages.
> > > 
> > > Then, if someone wants to advertise their mailing list, they can do it on their
> > web
> > > site. If they don't have a web site and want lots of spam, we can post their
> > mailing
> > > lists on a new mailing lists page.
> > > 
> > > On top of that, the mailing lists page is a very labor-intensive operation.
> > > 
> > > I'm glad this topic came up and I thank JJ for mentioning it.
> > > 
> > > So, if anyone has an issue with the mailing lists page(s) going away, please let
> > me
> > > know and we will accommodate you. But the default setting is to not have mailing
> > > lists posted on SCN.
> > > 
> > > Less work, less spam. Amazing how neatly that works.
> > > 
> > > Patrick
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- "J. Johnson" <jj at scn.org> wrote:
> > > > A question I seem to be hearing more in recent months is:  "why am I
> > > > getting so much spam?"  Roughly speaking, there are two answers.
> > > > 
> > > > First, spam is being sent directly to various SCN lists because they
> > > > were posted on a web page, and subsequently harvested by spammers.
> > > > There is not much we can do about that now, except fighting spam
> > > > generally.
> > > > 
> > > > The second answer is:  because the systems that constitute the Internet
> > > > still have holes the spammers can exploit to hide their identities.
> > > > And unfortunately, until two days ago SCN was part of the problem:  we
> > > > had a CGI script (FormMail.pl) with a widely known vulnerability,
> > > > which was being used to pump spam into the Internet.  We have disabled
> > > > that script, but it is still available on many other systems.  
> > > > 
> > > > There has been a long running contention in SCN that we should
> > > > maximize services, regardless of cost or consequence, that security
> > > > and other allegedly specious considerations should always yield to
> > > > maximizing services and user friendliness.  Well, one of the
> > > > consequences of slack security is--spam.
> > > > 
> > > > Fortunately, it does not have to be all or nothing.  It is possible to
> > > > provide a reasonable suite of user services without egregious security
> > > > blunders.  However, it does take a lot of work (yikes!), and a certain
> > > > amount of discipline (a quality not heretofore notable here).  And we
> > > > are making progress.  But there is a lot of work to be done, so relief
> > > > from spam is going to take a while.
> > > > 
> > > > === JJ =============================================================
> > > > 
> > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > > > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > > > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > > > unsubscribe scn
> > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > > > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > > 
> > > 
> > > =====
> > > Webmaster
> > > Seattle Community Network
> > > http://www.scn.org
> > > "Powering our communities with technology"
> > > 
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> > > http://games.yahoo.com/
> > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > > unsubscribe scn
> > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> > > 
> > 
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 
> 
> =====
> Webmaster
> Seattle Community Network
> http://www.scn.org
> "Powering our communities with technology"
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> http://games.yahoo.com/
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From bramk at arabia.com  Wed Apr 24 09:02:35 2002
From: bramk at arabia.com (bram khumalo)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 18:02:35 +0200
Subject: SCN: Kindly Get Back To Me Please  24/04/02 18:02:35
Message-ID: <200204231600.JAA15742@scn.org>

Dear Friend,
This letter may come to you as a surprise due to the fact that we have
not yet met. The message could be strange but reel if you pay some 
attention
to it. I could have notified you about it at least for the sake of your
integrity. Please accept my sincere apologies. In bringing this message
of goodwill to you, I have to say that I have no intentions of causing
you any pains.
I am  Mr Bram Khumalo,son of the late rebel leader  
Maubane Khumalo
of Angola who was killed on the 22nd of febuary 2002 . I managed to get
your contact details through "The World Business Journal", a journal
of the Johannesburg Chamber of Commerce in South Africa in the time I
was desperately looking for a trustworthy person to assist me in this
confidential business.
my late father, Maubane Khumalo was able to deposit a large sum of money
in differnt banks in europe My father is presently death and the 
movement
of his family members (including me) is restricted. We are forbidden
to either travel abroad or out of our localities. Presently, the 
US$8,500,000.00
EIGHT, MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS my father transfered to 
Netherlands
is safe and is in a security firm. Before you can get access to it i
have to give you the password I am therefore soliciting your help to
have this money transfered into your account. before my government get
wind of this fund .You know my father was a rebel leader in Angola 
before
his death My reason for doing this is because it will be difficult for
the Angolan government to trace my father's money to an individual's
account, especially when such an individual has no relationship ,I 
decided
to keep that money for my family use. At present the money is
kept in a Security Company in nertherland.
I am currently and temporarily living in Angola with my husband my 
brother
has a refugee status, Moreover the political climate
in Angola at the moment being so sensitive and unstable.With this 
password
and information I will send to you, and power of attorney to the 
security
firm, When you are ready i will give you the information needed before
you can get access to the fund you will then proceed to Netherlands 
where
the US$8,500,000.00 EIGHT, MILLION, FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS will be given
to you as payment. Alternatively, you can have the fund transferred 
into
any account that suits you.
Kindly get back to me through my email address,with all your coatacts addresses and send me your name as appear in your passport,and your Telephone and fax number.waiting to hear from you,
God bless you.
Yours sincerely,
Bram Khumalo. 



* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 23 12:37:52 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:37:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Microsoft Puts the Squeeze on NW Schools
Message-ID: <20020423193752.24242.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>

>From the Oregonian. The copy and paste trick didn't work so great, so the link to
the article is below:                                                   

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/steve_duin/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/all_wire_stories/101386428029222529.xml
        
 
  Microsoft puts the squeeze on NW schools 

  04/21/02

  Steve Duin 

  Predatory? Monopolistic? Customer-unfriendly? Microsoft? 

  Say it ain't, Joe . . . and Steve and John and Scott and the rest of the computer
tech supervisors at
  the 24 largest school districts in Oregon and Washington. 

  At the busiest time of the year for those districts, Microsoft is demanding that
they conduct an
  internal software audit to "certify licensing compliance." In a March letter, the
software giant gave
  Portland Public Schools 60 days to inventory its 25,000 computers. 

  "Which," said Scott Robinson, the district's chief technology officer, "is a
virtual impossibility." 

  Microsoft is well within its rights to call for an audit. Everyone says so.
Everyone has read the
  contract. But school officials in both states are calling the audits "untimely,"
"outrageous" and
  "typical of Microsoft: not very bright." 

  Many also consider the audit requirement a strong-arm tactic to push school
districts into
  Microsoft's costly system-wide licensing agreements. 

  "Given the fact that the letter came from their marketing department, and included
a brochure about
  their school licensing agreement, this didn't seem terribly subtle to any of us,"
said Steve Carlson,
  associate superintendent for information and technology for Beaverton schools. 

  "I have a more simplistic view," said John Rowlands, director of information
services for the Seattle
  School District: "They just want to squeeze every nickel out of us they can." 

  For sheer irony, it's hard to beat the fact that the Bill and Melinda Gates
Foundation is pouring
  millions of dollars into small, high-tech high schools even as Microsoft is
looking for loose change at
  schools such as Jefferson and Marshall. 

  The school districts are considered guilty of software piracy until they can prove
they're in licensing
  compliance. If the district can't drum up the staff to manage the inventory,
Microsoft is willing to
  show up with its own audit crew, but if a single computer is found with illegal or
undocumented
  software, the district must pay for the audit. 

  "This doesn't recognize any of the complexities of the educational environment,"
Robinson said.
  Many of the 25,000 computers in Portland schools were donated and arrive without
pedigree or
  papers. "We're bubblegum and baling wire in terms of what we're putting on the
desktops. For us to
  try to manage every donated desktop that comes in from a business or an individual
is ridiculous." 

  Ah, but wait. Microsoft has an offer it thinks you can't refuse, if only to avoid
the audit: the vaunted
  Microsoft School Agreement. Under the terms of this agreement, a school or
district simply counts
  its computers and pays Microsoft somewhere in the neighborhood of $42 per machine
for one
  systemwide annual license. 

  As Rowlands noted, IBM rolled out this idea years ago. Schools liked it because
they could add
  hundreds of computers over the course of the school year and not pay for the
additional software
  licenses until the next computer count. 

  But Microsoft has put a new spin on the agreement, requiring an "institution-wide
commitment." That
  means the district must include in its count not only the PCs, but all the iMacs
and Power Macs
  that might conceivably use Windows software. 

  What would it cost Portland Public Schools, which is already facing a $36 million
shortfall, to sign
  that Microsoft School Agreement? 

  "A rough number? $500,000," Robinson said, "which translates, roughly, into 10
teaching positions."

  No one at Microsoft -- and I dialed three different offices -- returned phone
calls Friday to explain why
  the "random" audits targeted the nine largest school districts in Oregon and the
15 largest in
  Washington. Nor was anyone available to explain why Microsoft failed to notify the
two groups
  chartered to represent the schools in licensing negotiations, the Oregon
Educational Technology
  Consortium and the Washington School Information Processing Cooperative. 

  "Everyone has a bad taste about the way this came down," Carlson said. "The audit
is heavy
  handed; its non-participatory. Either they're starting out with the assumption
that we're all crooks or
  they feel they can bludgeon school districts into their marketing agreement. It's
clear they're not
  spending much time talking to the schools they're purporting to be supportive of."


  Thus, it's not surprising that several schools are asking, along with Robinson in
Portland, "whether
  we want to continue with the Microsoft platform." 

  One of the options is Linux, open-source software schools can run on their
desktops free of charge
  and without a license. Linux is particularly useful on donated computers that
aren't worth the $100
  Microsoft charges for a software license. 

  Paul Nelson, a teacher at Riverdale, and Eric Harrison with Multnomah ESD have
developed a
  thin-client software called K12LTSP that runs Linux. In the last nine months,
they've distributed the
  software to 5,000 schools. 

  "Schools and government agencies that are paying for Microsoft Office are wasting
money," Nelson
  said. "They should be using free software. A lot of this stuff has become generic.
It doesn't take a
  fancy program to make something bold." 

  R. Thor Prichard, the executive director at the Oregon Educational Technology
Consortium,
  observed, "Microsoft has made it known they're concerned about Linux invading
their territory.
  They're doing a lot of strategy building about eliminating Linux as a threat. Some
of the districts they
  targeted are some of the districts doing initiatives in Linux." 

  Subtle? Artful? Benevolent? Microsoft? That'll be the day. 

  Reach Steve Duin at 503-221-8597, Steveduin at aol.com or 1320 S.W. Broadway,
Portland OR
  97201. 

                    Copyright 2002 Oregon Live. All Rights Reserved.



=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From design at eskimo.com  Tue Apr 23 12:53:29 2002
From: design at eskimo.com (Jim Loring)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 12:53:29 -0700
Subject: SCN: RE: Microsoft Puts the Squeeze on NW Schools
In-Reply-To: <20020423193752.24242.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AIEBKKBIGBPHLGFIAPMIGEPPCFAA.design@eskimo.com>

Linux, anyone?

Cheers! - Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of patrick
fisher
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:38 PM
To: scn at scn.org
Subject: SCN: Microsoft Puts the Squeeze on NW Schools


>From the Oregonian. The copy and paste trick didn't work so great, so the
link to
the article is below:

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/steve_duin/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf
/html_standard.xsl?/base/all_wire_stories/101386428029222529.xml


  Microsoft puts the squeeze on NW schools

 <edited>


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 24 08:29:36 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:29:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: telnet access on Eastside
Message-ID: <20020424152936.59659.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>

SCN has a new volunteer who does not have a computer and lives on the Eastside. 

Are there public telnet access terminals in that part of the world? Community
centers? I called the King County Library System and they said that they disabled
telnet because of security concerns.

Thanks,
Patrick

=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From randy at scn.org  Wed Apr 24 09:41:12 2002
From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:41:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: telnet access on Eastside
In-Reply-To: <20020424152936.59659.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0204240938360.7213-100000@scn.scn.org>


I wasn't aware that KCLS had disabled telnet.  The last time that I tried
it (admittedly a couple of months ago at least) it was working.  This is
bad news.

Would it be possible to arrange a computer from Ti's program?  That would
at least (presuming this person has access to a phone) give access to SCN.

-randy


On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:

> SCN has a new volunteer who does not have a computer and lives on the Eastside.
>
> Are there public telnet access terminals in that part of the world? Community
> centers? I called the King County Library System and they said that they disabled
> telnet because of security concerns.
>
> Thanks,
> Patrick
>
> =====
> Webmaster
> Seattle Community Network
> http://www.scn.org
> "Powering our communities with technology"
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> http://games.yahoo.com/
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 24 10:00:12 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:00:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: broadband over power lines
Message-ID: <20020424170012.52860.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>

This is pretty neat: from macminute.com:

Broadband over power lines
   April 24 - 08:37 ET  As the telecommunications industry continues to falter,
broadband connectivity across traditional
   power lines is beginning to gain momentum, according to The Washington Post.
While the task of moving data
   through electrical lines is challenging, results so far from companies working in
the field show speeds
   comparable to or greater than cable modem and DSL connections. Additionally,
virtually anyone who has
   electricity would be eligible for the service. 

Here is the Washington Post article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29664-2002Apr22.html

Patrick

=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jj at scn.org  Thu Apr 25 01:14:52 2002
From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 01:14:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Purposes--and spam.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020425002822.27634C-100000@scn>

I have wondered if a useful and highly laudable purpose SCN might follow
would be the fighting of spam.  I don't mean by the usual technical means.
I mean by legal and political means.

Consider that Washington state does have a law that assesses a penalty of
$500 for e-mail messages with false header lines.  There have even been
two or three cases reported in the papers where individuals have
collected.

Now consider how many messages we have coming through here that have false
headers--lots! (Thousands.)  (Did I mention a possible revenue stream?) 

For sure there is some work involved.  Like researching the law, learning
how to layout a case before a judge (small claims courts, very informal),
filing a case, and perhaps even writing letters to the spammers that we
are about to file a hundred or so individual claims and would they like to
negotiate a bulk discount? 

Nor would this work in all cases--there still are those spammers from out
of country.  But there are enough native spammers to keep provide a good
business.

(There's also the research getting the spammer's name and address, but
that is not insolvable.  Just ask them where to send the check.)

There's also possible political action, like lobbying our legislators.
Well, maybe our Articles forbid lobbying, but we could sure _educate_
them.  Or educate our users how to file suits.

SCN would be a good base--perhaps the ideal base--for doing this because: 
first, we have access a large flow of spam, and the technical expertise to
analyze it; second, because the organization can provide the support
for doing this that individuals don't have; and third, because this is not
something most business are inclinded to undertake.  (Or even governmental
agencies.)

And it isn't hard to start.  A start could be just doing some research
about spam and putting up a web site.

So should SCN undertake active legal, political, or other measures to
fight spam? 

=== JJ =============================================================



* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From femme2 at speakeasy.org  Thu Apr 25 08:38:05 2002
From: femme2 at speakeasy.org (Lorraine Pozzi)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 08:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Purposes--and spam.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020425002822.27634C-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204250837290.9077-100000@grace.speakeasy.net>


I'm for it if I don't have to do any work.  We could be heroes.

Lorraine
-------------------------

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, J. Johnson wrote:

> I have wondered if a useful and highly laudable purpose SCN might follow
> would be the fighting of spam.  I don't mean by the usual technical means.
> I mean by legal and political means.
> 
> Consider that Washington state does have a law that assesses a penalty of
> $500 for e-mail messages with false header lines.  There have even been
> two or three cases reported in the papers where individuals have
> collected.
> 
> Now consider how many messages we have coming through here that have false
> headers--lots! (Thousands.)  (Did I mention a possible revenue stream?) 
> 
> For sure there is some work involved.  Like researching the law, learning
> how to layout a case before a judge (small claims courts, very informal),
> filing a case, and perhaps even writing letters to the spammers that we
> are about to file a hundred or so individual claims and would they like to
> negotiate a bulk discount? 
> 
> Nor would this work in all cases--there still are those spammers from out
> of country.  But there are enough native spammers to keep provide a good
> business.
> 
> (There's also the research getting the spammer's name and address, but
> that is not insolvable.  Just ask them where to send the check.)
> 
> There's also possible political action, like lobbying our legislators.
> Well, maybe our Articles forbid lobbying, but we could sure _educate_
> them.  Or educate our users how to file suits.
> 
> SCN would be a good base--perhaps the ideal base--for doing this because: 
> first, we have access a large flow of spam, and the technical expertise to
> analyze it; second, because the organization can provide the support
> for doing this that individuals don't have; and third, because this is not
> something most business are inclinded to undertake.  (Or even governmental
> agencies.)
> 
> And it isn't hard to start.  A start could be just doing some research
> about spam and putting up a web site.
> 
> So should SCN undertake active legal, political, or other measures to
> fight spam? 
> 
> === JJ =============================================================
> 
> 
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From bb615 at scn.org  Thu Apr 25 09:56:16 2002
From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 09:56:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: telnet access on Eastside
In-Reply-To: <20020424152936.59659.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020425095453.8470A-100000@scn>

> I called the King County Library System and they said that they disabled
> telnet because of security concerns.

Patrick, 

   So has at least one of the larger Parks Dept. community
center computer labs, as of last week. No more telnet = no more
Pine folders for SCN e-mail users. 

Rod Clark


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From douglas  Thu Apr 25 14:52:29 2002
From: douglas (Doug Schuler)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:52:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Larry Irving will present at DIAC-02
Message-ID: <200204252152.OAA18361@scn.org>

We've just learned that Larry Irving, former undersecretary
of commerce in the Clinton administration will be presenting
at the CPSR conference in May at the UW.  Since Bush installed
a corporate lawyer whose background was in lobbying for large
media companies Irving has been fairly outspoken...

-- Doug

   ******************************************************************
   *     SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY                                *
   *          Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change        *
   *                  http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02        *
   * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure        *
   *   is being shaped today.                                       *
   *                              But by whom and to what ends?     *
   *                 Seattle: May 16-19                             *
   * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org                                *
   ******************************************************************

--------------------
>From USA Today...
02/06/2002 - Updated 08:30 AM ET 

'Digital divide' report criticized 

WASHINGTON (AP)  Internet use is growing at a faster rate among the
poor and minorities and in rural areas, the Bush administration says,
claiming some success in shrinking the "digital divide."

But critics said the administration's report, released Tuesday, plays
with the numbers, while the government's statistics show that the gap
between technology haves and have-nots is actually widening.

"They're telling Americans the problem has been solved, and even by the
plain statistics it shows the problem isn't solved," said Larry Irving,
who wrote previous editions of the report for the Clinton
administration. "It's like putting lipstick on a pig, and saying it's
no longer a pig."

According to the report, in 1997, only 10% of people who made under
$25,000 per year had Internet access. But almost 45% of those who made
over $75,000 had access.

In 2001, while both groups made progress, that difference had jumped to
over 50 percentage points. Just over a quarter of the poorer group uses
the Internet.

Nancy Victory, head of the National Telecommunications and Information
Agency, which released the report, said, "I prefer to look at the glass
as half-full." She pointed to the growth rates as more telling. From
1998 to 2001, Internet use among blacks grew at an annual rate of 31%,
while use among whites grew by 19%.

....

rest of article at 
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2002/02/06/digital-divide.htm
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 25 20:31:58 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:31:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: nocharge.com
Message-ID: <20020426033158.24862.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com>

NoCharge.com has changed their set-up for TCP/IP.

The following DNS numbers have to be entered:

46.40.40.51
209.102.96.10
209.102.96.4

Of course, this helps no one who is now locked-out.

Had trouble logging into Yahoo via Lynx. Said my program didn't support https, so
couldn't log in.

Found out about NoCharge by using a terminal emulation program (Z-Term), logging
into SCN and using Lynx.

Patrick

=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From jj at scn.org  Fri Apr 26 23:02:41 2002
From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 23:02:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Phone lines
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020426225205.13280B-100000@scn>

Steve doesn't usually blow his own horn, so I guess I have to do it for
him.  He spent several hours this week (and last??) sweet-talking someone
at Qworst, to the end result (hang on tight!!) they actually fixed one of
the phone lines that has been broken ever since last summer's move, and
which they kept saying wasn't broken. 

It was a tiny result, not likely to be noticed much, but the effort to get
it resolved was not insignificant.

=== JJ =============================================================

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From rockybay at scn.org  Sat Apr 27 01:43:18 2002
From: rockybay at scn.org (Malcolm Taran)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 01:43:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Thx Re: SCN: Phone lines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020426225205.13280B-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020427000855.23019A-100000@scn>

Hearty compliments on facilitating access to scn.
Surely everyone who dials in would be appreciative.
Thanks
Malcolm Taran

PS Now maybe I and others will be seeing even less 
random-character generation upon dialing in to scn.

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, J. Johnson wrote:

> Steve doesn't usually blow his own horn, so I guess I have to do it for
> him.  He spent several hours this week (and last??) sweet-talking someone
> at Qworst, to the end result (hang on tight!!) they actually fixed one of
> the phone lines that has been broken ever since last summer's move, and
> which they kept saying wasn't broken. 
> 
> It was a tiny result, not likely to be noticed much, but the effort to get
> it resolved was not insignificant.
> 
> === JJ =============================================================
> [...]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 27 08:17:16 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 08:17:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Thx Re: SCN: Phone lines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020427000855.23019A-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <20020427151716.15523.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com>

JJ, Thank you for the note! 

Malcolm, thank you for the feedback!

Patrick

--- Malcolm Taran <rockybay at scn.org> wrote:
> Hearty compliments on facilitating access to scn.
> Surely everyone who dials in would be appreciative.
> Thanks
> Malcolm Taran
> 
> PS Now maybe I and others will be seeing even less 
> random-character generation upon dialing in to scn.
> 
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, J. Johnson wrote:
> 
> > Steve doesn't usually blow his own horn, so I guess I have to do it for
> > him.  He spent several hours this week (and last??) sweet-talking someone
> > at Qworst, to the end result (hang on tight!!) they actually fixed one of
> > the phone lines that has been broken ever since last summer's move, and
> > which they kept saying wasn't broken. 
> > 
> > It was a tiny result, not likely to be noticed much, but the effort to get
> > it resolved was not insignificant.
> > 
> > === JJ =============================================================
> > [...]
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From steve at advocate.net  Sat Apr 27 09:06:16 2002
From: steve at advocate.net (Steve)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 09:06:16 -0700
Subject: SCN: Online Personal Privacy Act
Message-ID: <3CCA6A08.3687.6FBD1EE@localhost>

x-no-archive: yes

==================


(Chris Wenham, Salon)---Outrage surged through users of the 
KaZaA file-sharing utility when they learned, early in April, that a 
new breed of spyware had been installed on their computers. 
KaZaA, probably the most popular heir to Napster's throne, was 
already well known for coming bundled with a wide variety of 
parasite programs that serve up advertisements, track Web-surfing 
activity, and otherwise cause mischief. But the newest arrival 
topped anything seen before in scope or ambition.   

A company called Brilliant Digital had surreptitiously installed 
software in computers running KaZaA. Once activated, the 
software would set up a distributed computing network, allowing 
Brilliant to hijack the resources of thousands of personal 
computers to serve the needs of its own customers. Brilliant's plan 
is to use the computer processing power generated by the network 
to serve technologically advanced advertisements and track how 
users react to those ads.   

As the newest assault on Internet privacy, Brilliant's plan pressed 
hard on an online hot button. Indeed, the tracking of personal data 
riles enough people that a new bill that purports to protect online 
privacy was introduced in Congress just last week. As the bill -- 
sponsored by Sen. Ernest "Fritz" Hollings, D-S.C., and titled the 
Online Personal Privacy Act (S. 2201) -- notes, consumers fear 
there's too little privacy online and too much sharing of sensitive 
personal information among the business elite. Up to a third of 
them have been submitting bogus data about themselves in an 
attempt to protect their privacy, and "tens of billions of dollars in e-
commerce" have been lost due to privacy fears, the bill warns.   

But Hollings' bill should outrage Internet users just as much as 
Brilliant Digital's spyware. For while it talks a good game about 
protecting "sensitive" information, the truth is that it would place a 
congressional stamp of approval on precisely the kinds of 
practices that purveyors of spyware are eager to engage in.   

The fact that Hollings is behind this bill should be the first clue 
about the real agenda it serves. Hollings is also a sponsor of the 
Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act 
(CBDTPA, formerly known as the SSSCA), a bill that requires all 
new computers and other digital information devices to come with 
copy protection software and/or hardware installed on them. It 
would also outlaw any effort to reverse-engineer or disable any 
copy-protection format -- a measure that some observers believe 
will cripple software development -- particularly in the open-source 
and free-software communities. 

CBDTPA is ostensibly based on the premise that consumers won't 
sign up for broadband ISP access until Hollywood puts its content 
online, and Hollywood won't do that until its sure its intellectual 
property will be safe. But the bill isn't really about the "promotion" 
of broadband at all. Hollings is one of the Senate's largest 
recipients of entertainment industry campaign contributions, and 
the bill is squarely aimed at protecting that industry's interests.   

Likewise with the Online Personal Privacy Act. It is masquerading 
as pro-consumer when in fact it is pro-business. The new 
legislation is similar to laws passed in Europe that divide your 
personal information into two types. The first is "sensitive" 
information, such as your financial and medical history, race, 
lifestyle, religion, political affiliation, and sex life. The second is 
"nonsensitive" information, and among that will include your name, 
address, and records of anything you buy or surf on the Internet. 
Under the act, business can't collect or divulge the sensitive bits 
without your express consent, but anything classified as 
nonsensitive can be freely collected and sold at will.   

But the nonsensitive clause is a huge gaping loophole through 
which business will ride roughshod. Never mind that part about 
"sensitive" information being forbidden. Most things that 
businesses want to know about us can be inferred just by 
examining the things we buy, read and click on. If they can put that 
information together with our names, which the bill allows, then any 
concept of "privacy" protection is rendered meaningless. The 
Online Personal Privacy Act legitimizes the kind of intrusive 
spyware program activity that is currently proliferating.   

It's no secret, of course, that your lifestyle can be inferred just by 
examining the things you buy, read and click on. Humans are noisy 
beasts; we leave a staggering number of clues to our vices, ills 
and perversions in everything we touch. In a database geek's 
lexicon, our habits are not normalized -- they contain excessively 
redundant information, so if you hide one fact it can still be 
deduced by the imprint it makes on the rest.   

No part of a lifestyle can be completely hidden if one wants to 
participate in modern society. The dietary laws of many religions 
will show up on supermarket receipts. Religious migratory habits 
will be obvious, too -- from the haj of a Muslim to the conspicuous 
18- to 24-month absence of a Mormon on a mission. Your money 
problems could be discovered by an analysis of your austerity, 
your age group by the perfume you buy, or your sexual orientation 
by the brands you're loyal to.   

And yet, despite this abundance of accidental data, businesses 
have always had difficulty collecting enough to make it useful. Bar 
code scanners in supermarkets aren't sufficient because they 
capture only a fragment of a consumer's activity. Marketers have 
also encountered obstacles assembling the resources necessary 
to process all that information. And up until recently, they've been 
limited mostly to targeting statistical clumps of people, rather than 
actual individuals.   

But the advances in technology symbolized by spyware from 
companies such as Brilliant Design promise to solve the technical 
problems while the Hollings bill ensures that such practices are 
legal.   

Spyware programs use a variety of technologies. Setting "cookies" 
on your hard drive identifies you to particular Web sites, and "Web 
bugs" -- invisible image files on Web pages -- in conjunction with 
cookies help track movement through the Web. They make the 
problem of collecting data and associating it with a unique entity 
easy. The next step is getting your name, which can be done as 
soon as you make an impulsive click to buy something from a site 
that is sharing information with the spyware loaded on your 
computer.   

This kind of individualized tracking used to be impossible, 
especially for print media, where the latency, or time lag, between 
an ad placement and its response was too long and the results too 
generalized. Today, however, the individually targeted, latency-
free abilities of modern spyware make it easy to automate on a 
massive scale. They get to work the instant you begin surfing 
bugged Web pages, identifying you by an anonymous number at 
first until you finally blunder into any of the million opportunities -- 
such as ordering a product online -- that tie your number and all its 
cataloged kinks to a name.   

It's true that most companies practicing these data-gathering 
techniques have long since responded to consumer backlash and 
provided an opt-out mechanism for users. Opting out will either 
suspend their data collection activities on you, or withdraw your 
name from the lists they share with other companies. But with 
hundreds of such databases currently in existence, how does one 
hunt down the instructions for opting out of so many and still 
maintain a social life?   

The problem of finding the sheer computer horsepower necessary 
to manipulate captured data may also soon be a thing of the past. 
This detective work is not easy for silicon to do: Neural nets, 
classification trees, rule inductions, genetic algorithms and other 
methods all take their toll on processor power, which means 
somebody's got to pony up the megahertz to do it. But if Brilliant 
Digital is any indication, that somebody will soon be you.   

Brilliant Digital's new generation of spyware has been inspired by 
distributed computing projects such as SETI at Home, but it has the 
ethics of a cuckoo bird. The parasite, hidden within a harmless-
looking 3-D viewer called b3d, piggybacks on KaZaA and installs 
itself with minimal notification. It's so subtle that most of the KaZaA 
network's users weren't aware they had it until recently; the only 
hint of what Brilliant's program would be doing was buried within a 
5,000-word license of the kind that most anxious users skip past in 
a hurry. Yet once installed, the parasite runs constantly in the 
background of your computer's consciousness, soaking up any 
CPU cycles and disk space that you don't happen to be using 
yourself, and turning them over to do the work of Brilliant's 
customers through a private network called Altnet.   

Brilliant claims on its Web site that Altnet will be used only to 
render video and 3-D animation for media-rich advertisements, but 
it doesn't really matter if they've shanghaied your computer to draw 
the next Cap'n Crunch commercial or calculate the probability that 
you're a transvestite: Altnet, and the parasites that will follow in its 
footsteps, still provide the opportunity for a business to annex your 
resources to liberate their own, so they can run more important 
programs: programs that may just untie your whole intimate 
biography.   

With the logistics solved, all that's left is the legitimacy and a kick 
in the pants for consumer motivation. Again, it's Hollings to the 
rescue, giving marketers, credit analysts, insurance companies, 
employers and all the others everything they need, as though it 
were written out on a shopping list.   

Hiding behind aggressive wording that makes it seem as if it'll be 
safe to go back online are two giveaway exceptions in the bill's 
text. The first is the allowance of "cookies or other tracking 
technology" to gather the data that Hollings considers to be 
"nonsensitive" -- such as your browsing and shopping habits. This 
would include the entire range of spyware now in the wild, 
constraining them only with the feeble requirement to provide 
"robust notice" of their activity, like the robust notice you'll find if 
you have the strength and the legal wit to get through KaZaA's 
5,000-word license.   

The second is that any inferred knowledge won't be considered 
"personally identifiable" and will therefore be protected under law, 
leaving data-mining experts with the freedom to continue mapping 
your psyche with their robot cartographers and sharing the results 
with their partners. With names and e-mail addresses 
conspicuously missing from the act's definition of "sensitive" 
information, Hollings' idea of classifying the levels of your privacy 
is like trying to cut hot custard pudding in half.   

In one swoop, Hollings not only makes it possible for businesses to 
accelerate into this brave new world of automated lifestyle 
profiling, but also fools consumers into a false sense of security 
that'll have them buying more, and more often. Perhaps you don't 
care if the credit card company knows what ills you suffer from, or 
if Amazon has twigged to the kinks you practice in the bedroom. 
Maybe you're comfortable with being lost in a crowd of millions of 
Internet surfers, enjoying the same kind of anonymity an ant enjoys 
in his hive. But did you click on that suggestive banner ad out of 
random curiosity or because they gotcha?   


Copyright 2002 Salon.com





* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From steve at advocate.net  Sat Apr 27 09:06:16 2002
From: steve at advocate.net (Steve)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 09:06:16 -0700
Subject: SCN: Spyware
Message-ID: <3CCA6A08.31827.6FBD1BA@localhost>

x-no-archive: yes

===================


(Damien Cave, Salon)---Nicholas Stark has spent the past two 
years fighting "spyware":  programs surreptitiously bundled 
together with popular software downloads for the purpose of 
delivering advertisements or tracking personal information. His 
Swedish company, Lavasoft, produces a product called Ad-Aware 
that searches a computer for hidden spyware, and then asks users 
if they'd like the program removed.  

Spyware is a fast-moving business with new entries arriving by the 
day. Lavasoft, in collaboration with volunteers all over the world, 
must constantly update Ad-Aware to take into account clever new 
technological tricks. 

But even Stark was caught by surprise at the most recent 
development: A company in the Slovak Republic called RadLight, 
which makes a free multimedia player, turned the tables on 
Lavasoft. In addition to the normal run of spyware that comes with 
a RadLight download, there was an additional program specifically 
aimed at removing Ad-Aware.  

Hard numbers on how many people might have been affected by 
this game of spyware vs. anti-spyware are difficult to come by. 
More than 1 million people have downloaded Ad-Aware, according 
to Stark, and at least 720,000 people have downloaded RadLight 
from Download.com since the program first appeared in February, 
but the extent of the overlap is unknown.  

RadLight's counterattack is a classic example of the kind of 
technological leapfrog always going on in the world of software. 
But it is also yet another indication of how fraught with 
complications the search for a business model in the world of free 
software has become. 

Parasite programs like spyware are a major income source for the 
manufacturers of popular free downloads like KaZaA or RadLight. 
Anti-spyware programs like Ad-Aware aim to cut that revenue 
source off at the knees.  

Does that give RadLight the unilateral right to uninstall programs 
without directly informing the user? The only notification to 
RadLight users that Ad-Aware was forbidden came buried in the 
license statement that most users click through without reading, 
which stated: "You are not allowed to use any third party program 
(e.g. Ad-Aware) to uninstall applications bundled with RadLight."  

RadLight did not respond to press inquiries. But an individual 
calling himself "RadScorpion" and claiming to be RadLight's 
creator posted a message on Lavasoft's message boards 
Wednesday, stating that the Ad-Aware remover was a fair attempt 
to make Lavasoft take a taste of its own medicine:  

"As I believe that some of the "spyware" are just regular legal 
programs I really feel for their authors to see how their program is 
being uninstalled," RadScorpion wrote. "I WANTED ADAWARE TO 
SEE IT TOO and to revalue their pose to their 'enemies.'"  

Salon interviewed Stark via e-mail on the subject of the ever-
escalating war between spyware and anti-spyware.  

What was your reaction upon discovering that RadLight was 
targeting Ad-Aware for removal?  

Primarily we saw it as a disservice to the users of RadLight, and 
not against us. Their software silently removed ours without any 
warning or notice in their license agreement.  

At some point, though, a license agreement became part of the 
download...

The changes in their license agreement were done after massive 
protests. The author refused to inform users in the first place.  

What about those who downloaded the program after the license 
appeared? Most people probably didn't realize that they were also 
downloading anti-Ad-Aware spyware, but isn't it their responsibility 
to read the license? If they don't agree to the terms, shouldn't they 
just not download the program?  

I do not believe that it is legal to bind the usage of their software to 
the removal of an unrelated product. What the RadLight developer 
should have done was to make his software non-functioning 
should the user choose to remove the bundled spyware/adware. 
Or at least put it clearly visible that using his software without 
SaveNow (an ad-serving program that is often bundled with 
freeware) installed violates the terms of use. Everything else is an 
unacceptable act.

As for the license agreement, when this was first discovered, the 
user wasn't presented with the terms of the "contract" until the 
software had already been installed. So regardless of whether the 
user actually read the licensing terms, he or she didn't know the 
terms they were actually agreeing to before they downloaded the 
software.  

Do you think that a license - in which a user clicks "yes, I agree" at 
the end - gives users enough of a warning?  

Absolutely not.  

Why?  

This would involve a drastic change in how software companies 
relate to their end users. Just imagine the loss of control one would 
have over one's private computers. Or even how this could affect 
corporate users who would then have no choice about what 
product solutions they were able to implement. We find the very 
idea unacceptable and quite impossible to implement.  

What do you and Lavasoft plan to do about RadLight's new 
software?  

We have been discussing the possibility of this tactic for quite 
some time now. What they in effect did was to change their end 
users software environment without warning. So when our worst 
case scenario was actually presented to us, we were already 
prepared. We quickly released a fix for this exploit. As we now 
consider RadLight's previous offerings to be malicious, we will 
continue to monitor their subsequent releases for this type of 
activity.  

The battle with RadLight is really just one of many battles that 
you've waged against spyware. How did you get started in this 
business? When did you write the code for Ad-Aware and why?  

Ad-Aware actually began with a simple Aureate removal tool 
(Aureate produced one of the first versions of so-called spyware in 
2000). As users became comfortable with it, and confident of its 
effectiveness, they began to ask for the detection and removal of 
an ever-increasing number of identified components. 

Ad-Aware has quite simply been a work in progress as each new 
reference file and upgrade has been in response to our users' 
needs. With help from dedicated volunteers, we have even been 
proactive, identifying components before they were asked for by 
our users. We don't see an end to our development efforts as there 
are literally several new advertising schemes being developed 
every month in response to our product's effectiveness.  

How do you make money? Ad-Aware is also free, so what's your 
business model?  

We do offer an enhanced version of Ad-Aware called Ad-Aware 
Plus, (which costs $15). But money is not the primary goal and has 
never been; it's mainly used to pay the server and bandwidth 
costs. We all have "regular" jobs or are students, and do this in our 
spare time (although it uses up a lot).  

How has the battle developed? Before RadLight, were there other 
forms of spyware that tried to defeat Ad-Aware? And if so, how did 
you handle those situations?  

For the most part, the developers of these applications have done 
their best to hide from Ad-Aware. It has been a game of cat and 
mouse from the beginning. 

RadLight was the first case of an attempt to defeat our software 
through removal. This was a scenario we have discussed for a 
long time, but had felt that the developers would not use it due to 
the dubious legalities involved. In fact it could be seen as illegal. 
So we prepared for it, but didn't implement it as we saw it being a 
remote possibility. 

Now that RadLight has let the genie out of the bottle, we expect 
others to attempt this as well. So we will aggressively monitor for 
this activity and if it is discovered, will quickly counter it and then 
expose the offending party publicly.  

Do you have any plans to sue?  

The developers of RadLight have learned a difficult and painful 
lesson. The public in general, and the privacy and security 
communities specifically, have shown their company that they are 
neither blind to, nor tolerant of malicious code distributed by any 
official software vendor. The outcry was immediate and quite 
deafening, causing them to reevaluate their tactics. At present, we 
don't see a need for legal action.  

Is there any kind of spyware that you find acceptable? Are those 
that let people opt in, for example, allowable? Or what about ad 
software that doesn't collect personal information but just serves 
extra ads?  

It isn't a matter of what Lavasoft will or will not approve of. If our 
users find the activity unacceptable, then we will meet their needs. 
In the end, it is the public that will decide what is appropriate. 

So to this end we have implemented features that will allow the 
user to choose their own level of comfort. They have the choice to 
exclude or ignore any component targeted by Ad-Aware at their 
discretion. And when removing the components found, we have 
supplied them with a backup feature that will restore anything 
removed by Ad-Aware should they choose to.  

But if your program works correctly, it removes the revenue stream 
for companies that offer their software for free. Some have argued 
that spyware is a great way to encourage development of new and 
interesting software because it gives creators a way to distribute 
their programs to a large crowd while getting compensated for their 
efforts.  

The argument is really irrelevant. If a developer chooses this 
business model, then that is their right. But in this, the end user 
also has a right to choose what is or is not installed on their 
systems. 

Many of these bundled "ad systems" are poorly written and try to 
dig themselves so deeply in a user's computer that they are close 
to impossible for the average user and extremely difficult for the 
advanced user to find and remove. So to this end, Ad-Aware is 
needed to ensure that the user always has the choice.  

Do you have an alternative plan for developers who want to earn 
money from their code?  

A specific plan? No. However we do have some pertinent advice. 
Lavasoft began as nothing more than a dream. With hard work and 
a specific plan for the future, we have been able to achieve the 
success we now enjoy. We feel that the ad-sponsored model is 
nothing more than a quick fix. What we would say is that 
developers need to find a community willing to support their efforts 
and help them to grow in their art and to learn from experience.  

The fight seems to keep changing; whoever writes the last batch of 
code has an advantage. How do you plan to keep up against so 
many opponents - especially in cases when your competition has 
more money?  

Money is an important issue, but not as important as your question 
would imply. True, we will be busy, and this will only get worse as 
time goes on. But what your question fails to acknowledge is the 
character of the people involved. Our core of support has always 
been dedicated volunteers that take over support functions, do 
research and beta test so that we can continue the development 
work. Our users are our strength.  


Copyright 2002 Salon.com





* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clairiun at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 27 11:22:51 2002
From: clairiun at yahoo.com (clairiun at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 11:22:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: NYTimes.com Article: Bypassing the Carriers, a Burg Goes Broadband 
Message-ID: <20020427182251.93A4415C27@email4.lga2.nytimes.com>

This article from NYTimes.com 
has been sent to you by clairiun at yahoo.com.


/-------------------- advertisement -----------------------\


Enjoy new investment freedom!

Get the tools you need to successfully manage your portfolio
from Harrisdirect.  Start with award-winning research.  Then
add access to round-the-clock customer service from
Series-7 trained representatives.  Open an account today and
receive a $100 credit!

http://www.nytimes.com/ads/Harrisdirect.html

\----------------------------------------------------------/


Bypassing the Carriers, a Burg Goes Broadband

April 25, 2002 

By PETER WAYNER


 

CUMBERLAND, Md. -- DURING the Civil War, Cumberland built a
fort on the hill overlooking the center of town as a
bulwark against the Confederate forces just across the
Potomac. Today, the city is trying to use the same high
ground to strategic advantage in a different campaign:
keeping pace with the Internet age. 

After years of waiting for the phone company, Verizon, to
offer high-speed Internet service here, the local
government wants to take on the job. And the hill above
downtown, now the site of Fort Hill High School, has
already proved to be an opportune spot for a crucial
station relaying Internet traffic. 

The quandary facing Cumberland, population 21,000, and
surrounding Allegany County is not unusual in rural
America. Businesses and residents here in western Maryland,
far from any urban center, are so scattered that upgrading
the telephone system's copper wires to offer the high-speed
data service known as D.S.L., or Digital Subscriber Line,
is prohibitively expensive. High-capacity lines like T1's
and DS3's are sometimes available, but at prices steeply
higher than those offered in big cities and technology
corridors. 

Verizon and other phone companies prefer to invest where
population density guarantees a return on that kind of
investment. (One cable company, owned by Charter
Communications, offers high-speed Internet service to homes
in Cumberland and has started taking orders for businesses
but does not serve surrounding areas of the county.) 

As it happens, the foundation is already in place for a
system that may provide the answer. In 1996, four network
administrators from the county government established the
first link in a wireless network that has come to encompass
the schools, the police, the fire department, the libraries
and nonprofit organizations like the Y.M.C.A. Built at an
estimated cost of $320,000, largely through grants, the
network carries traffic to more than 85 buildings and 4,000
individual workstations. Now attention is focused on
extending the network, known as Allconet, to serve homes
and businesses. 

"We're doing such a successful job with the nonprofits,"
said Beth Thomas, one of the network administrators who
organized the effort. "We want to help the businesses that
are already here and use it as a way to attract other
businesses." 

Making the leap from providing services to the government
to providing for everyone is as much a political challenge
as a technical one. The county is, in essence, going into
competition with Verizon, even if the phone company is not
aggressively pursuing the business. "I'm a little surprised
that Verizon hasn't come after us yet," said Jeffrey Blank,
another of the network's organizers. 

That worry is not unfounded. When the city of Bristol, Va.,
grew tired of waiting for fast Internet connections and
rolled out its own wireless broadband service to residents,
the state's telecommunications companies protested and the
Virginia legislature passed a law effectively forbidding
municipalities to provide Internet services. Similar
battles are taking place in several other states. 

Bristol sued the legislature, arguing that the federal
Telecommunications Act of 1996 prevented the states from
banning "any entity" from providing telecommunications
services. Last year the city convinced a federal district
court that it qualified as such an entity and should be
free to offer services. The state is appealing. 

"If local governments are not free to fill some of these
gaps, what we'll see happening is what happened in the
electric power industry," said Jim Baller, a
Washington-based lawyer who represents Bristol as well as
the American Public Power Association, an alliance of more
than 2,000 community-owned utilities. Electrification
"flourished in the major centers," he added, "but it took
government in the most rural areas." 

Link Hoewing, an assistant vice president for Internet
policy at Verizon Communications, declined to discuss
Cumberland's situation in detail but defended his company's
efforts. "About 55 percent of our customers are connected
to a D.S.L.-capable office," he said. "We're trying to ramp
it up and sell it as fast as we can, where it makes
economic sense to do so." 

Phone companies argue that it is unfair for governments to
compete with them. "They clearly have access to government
revenues," Mr. Hoewing said. "We have to go to Wall Street
and ask our investors." 

Casper R. Taylor Jr., Allegany County's representative in
the Maryland legislature, where he is speaker of the House
of Delegates, disagrees. He calls the new wireless network
"salvation." 

Mr. Taylor helped to secure $2 million for improving and
extending the county's wireless network in the next state
budget to make rural townships "viable as economic
communities for the future." 

Mr. Blank, the network administrator, said that the county
would supply another $600,000 and that he expected the
remaining $2.1 million to come from the federal E-Rate
program, which redirects some billing revenue from phone
companies to help wire schools and libraries. 

David Farber, a former chief technologist for the Federal
Communications Commission and professor of computer science
at the University of Pennsylvania, agrees that local
governments will need to take part in extending broadband
availability. "Cities and towns provide highways, sewers
and infrastructure," he said. "In a world where it's pretty
clear that telecommunications companies aren't in any rush
to provide infrastructure, it's rational for the cities to
get into the business." 

The structure of the network in Cumberland may temper
opposition. Mr. Blank said that rather than sell broadband
service directly to homes and businesses, the county
planned to sell some of the wireless network's capacity in
bulk to Internet service providers to resell, much the way
county landfills are made available to private
garbage-hauling services. 

Mr. Blank said the goal was to make the wireless network
and Internet connection available to commercial providers
at 80 percent of what it would cost to establish similar
links through conventional means. That would enable the
companies in turn to offer high-speed service locally at a
low rate, he said. (Residential customers typically pay $50
a month for D.S.L. service.) 

In the end, though, the vital issue is availability. "We
wouldn't be doing this," said Ms. Thomas, the network
administrator, "if they were providing the service in the
first place." 

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/25/technology/circuits/25BROA.html?ex=1020931771&ei=1&en=3a0167bd1eff0cf8



HOW TO ADVERTISE
---------------------------------
For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters 
or other creative advertising opportunities with The 
New York Times on the Web, please contact
onlinesales at nytimes.com or visit our online media 
kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo

For general information about NYTimes.com, write to 
help at nytimes.com.  

Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 27 14:39:01 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 14:39:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: lawsuit
Message-ID: <20020427213901.85575.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com>

The lawsuit against SCN volunteers by a former volunteer, Richard Littleton, is
over. The defendants won the case. 

A great thanks is not enough to Preston Ellis and Gates for defending SCN pro bono.
They put a great deal of work.

I don't know anything about the case, or much about what happened, but you can read
about it here:

http://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/opindisp_bold.cfm?docid=484028MAJ%20%20%20&searchval=littleton#L1

Thanks,
Patrick

=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From bn890 at scn.org  Sat Apr 27 21:06:09 2002
From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 21:06:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: Phone lines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020426225205.13280B-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020427210558.24282A-100000@scn>

Thank you Steve,
Irene



On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, J. Johnson wrote:

> Steve doesn't usually blow his own horn, so I guess I have to do it for
> him.  He spent several hours this week (and last??) sweet-talking someone
> at Qworst, to the end result (hang on tight!!) they actually fixed one of
> the phone lines that has been broken ever since last summer's move, and
> which they kept saying wasn't broken. 
> 
> It was a tiny result, not likely to be noticed much, but the effort to get
> it resolved was not insignificant.
> 
> === JJ =============================================================
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From bk846 at scn.org  Mon Apr 29 18:07:25 2002
From: bk846 at scn.org (Bill Scott)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 18:07:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: telnet access on Eastside
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020425095453.8470A-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020429175655.13210B-100000@scn>

You can get to SCN from the KCLS website main page. From www.kcls.org
click on infonet catalog which takes you to LYNX. once you are in you can
go direct to the SCN login - can't look now from where I am but I think it
says gateways ( about number 15 or 16 on the catalog options) gives access
to SCN, SPL & some other things. Similar to using the dial-in to SPL-
doesn't give you access to telnet to everywhere but it does take you into
SCN. 

I tried it a few minutes ago and it does work. Basically the same screen
as "telnet login" on the SCN page. You can get to Infonet from the main
kcls web page and can also access the gateways on the catalog terminals at
the Kent Regional Library ( & probably also some of the larger branches
like Bellevue Regional ). 



On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Rod Clark wrote:

> > I called the King County Library System and they said that they disabled
> > telnet because of security concerns.
> 
> Patrick, 
> 
>    So has at least one of the larger Parks Dept. community
> center computer labs, as of last week. No more telnet = no more
> Pine folders for SCN e-mail users. 
> 
> Rod Clark
> 
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> 

Bill Scott                
bk846 at scn.org          

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From bb615 at scn.org  Mon Apr 29 19:24:16 2002
From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:24:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: telnet access on Eastside
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020429175655.13210B-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020429191352.29610A-100000@scn>

Bill Scott wrote:
> You can get to SCN from the KCLS website main page. ...

Bill, 

   It's good to see that KCLS still has Lynx/telnet access to
SCN's Pine. I wonder whether any of the other Parks Dept
community centers have also disabled telnet. The one in my
neighborhood did recently, but it might not have anything to do
with the other Parks Dept places. I hope not.

   There are or were some good Web-based remote POP mail
readers, like Mail2Web.org, mentioned on the Help pages about
e-mail. Does anyone know of a Web-based remote mail-retrieval
service like that for reading mail from IMAP mail servers (like
SCN's) as well as from POP servers?

Rod Clark

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From randy at scn.org  Mon Apr 29 20:16:53 2002
From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 20:16:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: telnet access on Eastside
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020429191352.29610A-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0204292013090.8428-100000@scn.scn.org>


Was this attempt made from your home machine or at the library?  If KCLS
has disabled telnet, then this won't work, because the 'telnet' command
from Lynx won't be found.  If you did this on your home machine, then you
will be using the telnet that comes with your Windows/etc.

-randy


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Rod Clark wrote:

> Bill Scott wrote:
> > You can get to SCN from the KCLS website main page. ...
>
> Bill,
>
>    It's good to see that KCLS still has Lynx/telnet access to
> SCN's Pine. I wonder whether any of the other Parks Dept
> community centers have also disabled telnet. The one in my
> neighborhood did recently, but it might not have anything to do
> with the other Parks Dept places. I hope not.
>
>    There are or were some good Web-based remote POP mail
> readers, like Mail2Web.org, mentioned on the Help pages about
> e-mail. Does anyone know of a Web-based remote mail-retrieval
> service like that for reading mail from IMAP mail servers (like
> SCN's) as well as from POP servers?
>
> Rod Clark
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 29 20:29:54 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 20:29:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: telnet access on Eastside
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0204292013090.8428-100000@scn.scn.org>
Message-ID: <20020430032954.85102.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>

To be specific, there is not a telnet program, but a text browser where you can log
into 3 community networks or the Seattle Public Library (from the KCLS libraries.)


--- Randy Groves <randy at scn.org> wrote:
> 
> Was this attempt made from your home machine or at the library?  If KCLS
> has disabled telnet, then this won't work, because the 'telnet' command
> from Lynx won't be found.  If you did this on your home machine, then you
> will be using the telnet that comes with your Windows/etc.
> 
> -randy
> 
> 
> On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Rod Clark wrote:
> 
> > Bill Scott wrote:
> > > You can get to SCN from the KCLS website main page. ...
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> >    It's good to see that KCLS still has Lynx/telnet access to
> > SCN's Pine. I wonder whether any of the other Parks Dept
> > community centers have also disabled telnet. The one in my
> > neighborhood did recently, but it might not have anything to do
> > with the other Parks Dept places. I hope not.
> >
> >    There are or were some good Web-based remote POP mail
> > readers, like Mail2Web.org, mentioned on the Help pages about
> > e-mail. Does anyone know of a Web-based remote mail-retrieval
> > service like that for reading mail from IMAP mail servers (like
> > SCN's) as well as from POP servers?
> >
> > Rod Clark
> >
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> > majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> > unsubscribe scn
> > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> > * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *
> >
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
> .	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
> majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
> unsubscribe scn
> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
> * * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From randy at scn.org  Mon Apr 29 20:43:56 2002
From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 20:43:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: telnet access on Eastside
In-Reply-To: <20020430032954.85102.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0204292040130.16231-100000@scn.scn.org>


I just tried it here from home - when I click on 'Infonet Catalog' on my
Mac, NCSA Telnet starts up.  Same thing on my PC.  So I'm assuming, unless
something is different in the libraries, that is what is happening there
too.  So, if they've disabled Telnet, then this wouldn't work.  Of course,
they could be using a different address and web page inside the libraries.
I haven't had the opportunity to get on one recently.

BTW - watch out what you type - I was surprised at what I found at
www.kcls.com ...

-randy


On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:

> To be specific, there is not a telnet program, but a text browser where you can log
> into 3 community networks or the Seattle Public Library (from the KCLS libraries.)
>
>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From clariun at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 29 20:46:38 2002
From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 20:46:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: telnet access on Eastside
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0204292040130.16231-100000@scn.scn.org>
Message-ID: <20020430034638.86861.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com>

Okay,will further clarify:

No telnet is available at the libraries. You can telnet from home. That is the only
way I can get in, because the Java browser for the library is too clunky.

At the library, instead of telnet, at some of the terminals at least, you can
"telnet" (not a telnet program), you can log into a number of services.

Patrick


--- Randy Groves <randy at scn.org> wrote:
> 
> I just tried it here from home - when I click on 'Infonet Catalog' on my
> Mac, NCSA Telnet starts up.  Same thing on my PC.  So I'm assuming, unless
> something is different in the libraries, that is what is happening there
> too.  So, if they've disabled Telnet, then this wouldn't work.  Of course,
> they could be using a different address and web page inside the libraries.
> I haven't had the opportunity to get on one recently.
> 
> BTW - watch out what you type - I was surprised at what I found at
> www.kcls.com ...
> 
> -randy
> 
> 
> On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, patrick fisher wrote:
> 
> > To be specific, there is not a telnet program, but a text browser where you can
> log
> > into 3 community networks or the Seattle Public Library (from the KCLS
> libraries.)
> >
> >
> 


=====
Webmaster
Seattle Community Network
http://www.scn.org
"Powering our communities with technology"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From optout at whatUseek.com  Tue Apr 30 10:00:11 2002
From: optout at whatUseek.com (optout at whatUseek.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:00:11 -0400
Subject: SCN: URL submission received.
Message-ID: <200204301700.g3UH0Ba08670@l3det-bun.aol2.com>

** THIS IS AN AUTORESPONDER -- THIS IS NOT A MAILING LIST **

Dear Webmaster,

Thank you for submitting your site to whatUseek.  Your site
will be visited by our spiders soon, and your site should be
added to the whatUseek web index on our next scheduled index.


---------------------------------------------------------------
 Gain Exposure For Your Web Site With The whatUseek Collection
---------------------------------------------------------------

 Get *priority* placement throughout the whatUseek
 Search Network by submitting your URL to the 
 whatUseek Collection.

 http://collection.wus0.com/c.go?bc=1182113

 Once your site is approved, it will become listed in the
 approved categories within The whatUseek Directory, as well as
 reachable via real-time search queries based on your site's
 content and approved keywords. Once approved, your web site's
 listing will be accessable from whatUseek.com, chubba.com, and
 The whatUseek Directory.

 Consider the following:

 FACT: Search listings are more than 6 times more effective
       than banner ads in generating consumer online
       purchases, and almost 8 times more effective than
       tile ads.   

 FACT: Search listings are more effective in generating online
       purchases than ALL OTHER METHODS COMBINED, including
       banner ads and tile ads.   

 FACT: Search listings also work better than banners ads and
       tile ads with regard to brand recall and favorable
       opinion. 
   
 FACT: People are more likely to search using multiple keywords
       than a single keyword. The trend for using multiple
       keywords is on the rise too, which means you want
       specific queries *and* more flexible related queries,
       based on your site's content, to pull up your listing.

 The whatUseek Collection submission service allows you to
 choose associated search terms and categories which is an
 added benefit.

 Our machines will review your site. We crawl your site's
 content and our proprietary indexers then analyze it. This
 benefits you because your site's content is taken into
 consideration, not just the approved keywords you submitted.
 Remember, this is important because multiple keywords are used
 more often than single keywords.

 Our staff of human reviewers will review your site. They will
 perform the final analysis and review, making any necessary
 adjustments to your submission profile, which can include
 checking for spelling errors, adjusting the index content,
 adjusting category information, adding commonly misspelled
 words, adjusting the relevance of specific site factors, etc.

 Remember that search listings are more effective in generating
 online sales than ALL OTHER METHODS COMBINED, and then submit
 your URL now.

 For all the details, and to submit your site now, visit:

 http://collection.wus0.com/c.go?bc=1182113


--------------------------------------------------------------
          siteLevel - Search Enable Your Web Site
--------------------------------------------------------------

 We would like to announce siteLevel -- your OWN search engine
 for YOUR web site.  With this free, powerful, and attractive
 tool, you'll offer SEARCH CAPABILITIES right from your
 website returning only results FROM your web site.

 http://sitelevel.wus0.com/c.go?bc=1182016

 It's completely configurable!  Here are the hotpoints:

  1. siteLevel will index your entire site automatically (up
     to 1,000 pages).

  2. Concerned about the appearance of the search results
     page?  We will give you the ability to change the
     background color, text color, and link/visited colors.
     Also, if you provide your site and URL, we will provide
     a text link BACK to your site on every result page.

  3. It's free.

 Head over to the siteLevel signup page for more info, or to
 get started now.

 http://sitelevel.wus0.com/c.go?bc=1182016



--------------------------------------------------------------
 THIS IS NOT SPAM -- THIS IS NOT A MAILING LIST -- READ BELOW
--------------------------------------------------------------

On our ADD URL PAGE at 
http://www.whatuseek.com/addurl.shtml
you were given an opportunity to check the box and opt out
if you do not want to receive news updates or announcements
from whatUseek.  If you did not check the box when you 
submitted your web site, but would like to opt out now,
please go to http://newsletters.whatuseek.com/unsubscribe.shtml

Otherwise, please enjoy your free subscription to The
whatUseek Weekly Ezine, read by almost 1 million subscribers
world wide.  Our weekly newsletter covers important topics
that will help you and your business succeed online.  Expect
to receive your first issue of The whatUseek Weekly Ezine
sent to this email address within the next week.


FAQ
---

 Q: 'I don't know why I'm getting this email.'

 A: Some person submitted a URL to whatUseek, as well as this
    e-mail address.

    URL: http://seedsforchange.org.uk
    IP Address: 66.33.60.127
    When: 2002-04-30 13:00:11

    This is *NOT* a mailing list.  This is an autoresponder
    meant as a URL submission confirmation to the whatUseek
    search engine.

 Q: 'Yes, it was me, but I don't want to receive this email
    when I submit my URLs.'

 A: Just head over to this URL, and you can opt out.

    http://add.whatUseek.com/cgi-bin/optout.go
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *


From bb615 at scn.org  Tue Apr 30 10:01:27 2002
From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:01:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCN: telnet access on Eastside
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0204292013090.8428-100000@scn.scn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1020430095813.20379A-100000@scn>

Randy, 

   My recent experience was at a Parks Dept. lab last week,
where they had disabled telnet completely, within the prior
week. It was Bill Scott who explained the KCLS system, I
believe. Actually I haven't been out to a county library branch
in the past few weeks, but will have to go to one and see what's
up with this.

Rod Clark

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *  From the Listowner  * * * * * * * * * * * *
.	To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
majordomo at scn.org		In the body of the message, type:
unsubscribe scn
==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ====
* * * * * * *     http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/     * * * * * * *