From steve at groupworks.org Tue Jan 1 04:22:26 2002 From: steve at groupworks.org (Steve Guest) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 04:22:26 -0800 Subject: SCN: Re: On delegation, prayer, and prey References: <20011231185431.87689.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> <002001c1924c$87343540$e2a7e13f@dellxpsr350> <3C316A37.2090109@scn.org> Message-ID: <001e01c192be$faed9400$4951a0d8@dellxpsr350> Hi Al Yep my fingers and brain were slightly out of gear as you have so eloquently pointed out and the spell checker didn't miss a heart beat on that one either. I have now stopped rolling around on the floor and sanity is restored (well as far as it can be in accepting this position). Thanks for starting the year with such a fine and entertaining communication. But you have started me thinking - if we do have a volunteer appreciation night at Farestart this year - this could bring a whole new meaning to the event. I now hope that the rest of this year's emails will be as informative and entertaining as this one. Happy New Year to you and all the SCN volunteers and users that are reading this - and anyone else! Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Boss" Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:50 PM Subject: BD: On delegation, prayer, and prey > Steve Guest wrote: > > > ... a competent manager would not oversee all projects, they > > delegate - and then in SCN's case they prey. > > > Actually, Steve, I think you meant that in our case, they _pray_ (not > "prey"). A manager who delegates, then preys, would be more likely to > work in a corporate setting wherein they appear to base prestige on how > many subordinates one manages to chew up and spit out. (Most of us can > name at least one of those...) > > At least at SCN we don't resort to eating our volunteers. (We just tie > them to email lists and hit them over the head with the same arguments > year after year after year.) > > Then again, I don't really know that someone's not out there consuming > our volunteers. That could explain some of the disappearances. I always > wondered what happened to Bob K. > > There's a fundraising opportunity somewhere here. The SCN cookbook? You > eat how you act, right? I bet I already know folks who could contribute > a lot of flambee recipes, others whose numerous dishes would all start > with the instructions "Muddle everything together until it loses > cohesion," and still others whose meal suggestions would consist almost > entirely of barrels of vinegar. Heck, we could have a couple chapters on > nuts! > > Must stop before I get even sillier. Happy new year, everyone! > > Al * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Jan 2 20:57:15 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:57:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: January Featured Sites of the Month Message-ID: <20020103045715.52126.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> I'm taking recommendations for SCN Feature Sites of the Month for January for SCN's home page. Patrick Seattle Community Network __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Fri Jan 4 19:48:00 2002 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 19:48:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: No Charge Now charging Message-ID: Hi everyone, Just got a ridiculous message from No-Charge saying 'nocharge is no longer able to provide free service in your area. We are deeply sorry blah blah blah. If you sign up before DECEMBER 31, 2001 get the first 30 days free (9.95mo). The bottom of the notice says: "Generated Sat, 05 Jan 2002 03:30:58 GMT by linus .kallback.com (Squid/2.3.STABLE4) Anyone else get this??? And how could one get connected to it assuming I want to if it won't connect me to the internet? Or am I completely off the wall? Thanx, Irene * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Jan 4 21:45:48 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:45:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: No Charge Now charging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020105054548.17982.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Irene, I have not received this, however I find it highly coincidental and I do not remember under which email address I registered. Coincidental, because I don't talk about it, but I mentioned it today to a coworker who has DLS. If they start charging, I'm back to Eskimo.com for $156 a year. Patrick Seattle Community Network --- Irene Mogol wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Just got a ridiculous message from No-Charge saying 'nocharge is no > longer > able to provide free service in your area. We are deeply sorry > blah blah > blah. > > If you sign up before DECEMBER 31, 2001 get the first 30 days free > (9.95mo). > > The bottom of the notice says: > "Generated Sat, 05 Jan 2002 03:30:58 GMT by linus .kallback.com > (Squid/2.3.STABLE4) > > Anyone else get this??? > And how could one get connected to it assuming I want to if it > won't > connect me to the internet? Or am I completely off the wall? > > Thanx, Irene > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Jan 4 21:46:08 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:46:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: No Charge Now charging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020105054608.37571.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Irene, I have not received this, however I find it highly coincidental and I do not remember under which email address I registered. Coincidental, because I don't talk about it, but I mentioned it today to a coworker who has DLS. If they start charging, I'm back to Eskimo.com for $156 a year. Patrick Seattle Community Network --- Irene Mogol wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Just got a ridiculous message from No-Charge saying 'nocharge is no > longer > able to provide free service in your area. We are deeply sorry > blah blah > blah. > > If you sign up before DECEMBER 31, 2001 get the first 30 days free > (9.95mo). > > The bottom of the notice says: > "Generated Sat, 05 Jan 2002 03:30:58 GMT by linus .kallback.com > (Squid/2.3.STABLE4) > > Anyone else get this??? > And how could one get connected to it assuming I want to if it > won't > connect me to the internet? Or am I completely off the wall? > > Thanx, Irene > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Sat Jan 5 10:52:44 2002 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 10:52:44 -0800 Subject: SCN: Open source Message-ID: <3C36DAFC.19733.74817CD@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ==================== The drive to license academic research for profit is stifling the spread of software that could be of universal benefit. Researchers who want to release their work to the public as open-source software often face an uphill battle. (Jeffrey Benner, Salon)---Would the creation of the Internet be allowed to happen today? The networked society we live in is in large part a gift from the University of California to the world. In the 1980s, computer scientists at Berkeley working under contract for the Defense Department created an improved version of the Unix operating system, complete with a networking protocol called the TCP/IP stack. Available for a nominal fee, the operating system and network protocol grew popular with universities and became the standard for the military's Arpanet computer network. In 1992, Berkeley released its version of Unix and TCP/IP to the public as open-source code, and the combination quickly became the backbone of a network so vast that people started to call it, simply, "the Internet." Many would regard giving the Internet to the world as a benevolent act fitting for one of the world's great public universities. But Bill Hoskins, who is currently in charge of protecting the intellectual property produced at U.C. Berkeley, thinks it must have been a mistake. "Whoever released the code for the Internet probably didn't understand what they were doing," he says. Had his predecessors understood how huge the Internet would turn out to be, Hoskins figures, they would surely have licensed the protocols, sold the rights to a corporation and collected a royalty for the U.C. Regents on Internet usage years into the future. It is the kind of deal his department, the Office of Technology Licensing, cuts all the time. Hoskins' "privatize it" attitude has become the norm among administrators at many universities and federal labs across the country. As a result, computer-science professors and researchers who want to release their work to the public as open-source software often face an uphill battle. Some familiar with the situation say the problem is that universities and federal research labs have become more interested in making money than serving the public interest. Larry Smarr, a professor of computer science at U.C. San Diego and one of the country's top experts on supercomputing, is one of them. As former director of the National Center for Supercomputing Applications at the University of Illinois, where the original Mosaic Web browser was created, he's quite familiar with both sides of the debate. "Some universities are dead set against giving software code away," says Smarr. "But I don't think universities should be in the moneymaking business. They ought to be in the changing-the- world business, and open source is a great vehicle for changing the world." Open-source software describes program code that is made publicly available for anyone to copy, change or even sell. The best-known open-source programs, such as Linux and Apache, are the product of a collaborative process of software development that takes advantage of the contributions of thousands of programmers all over the world. It's not only a cheap way to produce software; with so many eyes looking at the code, the theory is, bugs are found and fixed more quickly than with proprietary software. Over the past several years, open-source software development has won high-profile adherents in the business world -- including the likes of IBM and Sun Microsystems. But it has always had its strongest fans in the academic world, where open-source software is seen as a natural extension of the idea that the fruits of academic research should be shared with everyone. But now some academic programmers on the cutting edge have found that the licensing office is proving a more formidable obstacle to progress than the limits of their imagination and skill. Pete Beckman, formerly a senior computer scientist at the federal laboratory in Los Alamos, N.M., is a pioneer in creating clusters of servers that rival the power of mainframe supercomputers. He had to fight with lab lawyers for months before receiving permission to open-source his department's work on the clusters. Part of the lab's reticence was concern about letting computer technology fall into the hands of America's enemies, according to Beckman. "But the lab's other motive for keeping technology private is the misguided belief they can license it and make money on the lab system," he says. "They have whole departments dedicated to extracting intellectual property from the labbies." Before Beckman led the fight at Los Alamos to establish a protocol for making lab software public, "the only way to get your code released open source was to declare it worthless," he says. Beckman won his fight back in 1999, but the old standard still applies at other federal labs. "Some federal labs can release code, others can't," Beckman says. "There are whole departments that create valuable new technology, and they can't get it out to the world because [the lab] is trying to make money off it." Software for modeling global climate change, the behavior of viral epidemics and traffic patterns are among the programs researchers can't get released, he says. In a white paper Beckman authored on the problem, he wrote, "Seeking to control computer-science research by putting intellectual property concerns before the goal of good science has destroyed countless projects." Just how many is hard to say. Most researchers are reluctant to criticize their administrators. It is rare that universities flat out refuse a request to release software, but the hassle of getting permission can discourage those who might otherwise release their work. "It's tricky to find examples," says Rebecca Eisenberg, a law professor at the University of Michigan who specializes in intellectual property policy. "Because most technology fails, it's hard to say something would have succeeded" if only it had been put in the public domain. Nevertheless, Eisenberg is convinced that university interest in licensing intellectual property for profit is often at odds with the advancement of science. "You can make a clear case that research is being slowed by intellectual property claims," she says. "Universities aren't distinguishing between times when it's important to have a patent in place to get something disseminated and times when it's not," Eisenberg says. "They're just looking to see if they can make money. It retards innovation and taxes development." It took Chris Johnson, a computer-science professor at the University of Utah, several years of negotiation with his technology transfer office to get permission to make public a program his team had worked on for years. Called SCIRun (pronounced "ski run"), the program is a software platform for modeling and solving all sorts of complicated scientific problems. One of its most promising applications is as a tool for designing new medical devices. Because it is a foundation upon which other programs can be built, Johnson felt that making it an open-source-code project was fundamental to its value. "The hope is people will take this and put in their own applications and share those back with the community," Johnson says. But to do that, they have to be able to see and use the code without having to pay for it or get permission. "A lot of smart people out there can show you new and better ways for you, if they can see under the hood," Johnson says. But when he tried to explain to the university administration that the best way to maximize the value of SCIRun was to give it away, he ran into a roadblock. "We wanted to open-source it," Johnson says. "But they said that would undermine its commercial value." The negotiations began, a clash of differing cultures and interests. "No one really knew what we were doing at the beginning," Johnson says. "We didn't really understand intellectual property law, and they didn't really understand open source. The university just didn't want to let commercial value go. We're academics who wanted to push the envelope." After two years of haggling, they reached a compromise. In March, the software was released under a license that allows academics free access to the code but reserves the right to royalties if the code makes its way into a commercial software product. It hasn't always been this way. In the eighties, UC Berkeley was a pioneer in giving away software for the betterment of society. The rapid dissemination of "BSD Unix" allowed Internet-connected computers to speak the same language, helping to make our networked world possible. But now the University of California is often mentioned as one of the institutions that have taken the craze for exclusive patents and licenses too far. "It changed in the late eighties and early nineties," says Susan Graham, a professor of computer science at Berkeley. She didn't remember there even being an Office of Technology Licensing back when the department gave away Unix and the Internet protocols. If those innovations were discovered today, Graham worries they would end up in corporate hands. "I don't know whether they would let us release software like TCP/IP today," she says. "If they thought it had monetary value, they would want a revenue stream. There would be companies who could pay for it. I'm not sure we would have the same outcome [as in the past], and that's what concerns me." The trend at universities toward trying to profit from intellectual property began with the passage of the Bayh-Dole Act in 1980. Bayh-Dole allows institutions doing research for the federal government -- mostly universities -- to own the intellectual property they produce, and sell the rights to private companies. Because most cutting-edge research at both public and private universities involves some federal funding, Bayh-Dole allows universities to lay claim to many of their faculty's inventions. The same rights were later extended to the federal research labs. The philosophy behind Bayh-Dole is economic stimulation through privatization. When the law passed, the federal government held roughly 28,000 patents, but fewer than 5 percent of these were licensed to industry for development of commercial products, according to the Council on Government Relations, a lobbying group for research universities. By giving contractors a chance to sell the rights to technology developed in the course of publicly funded research, Congress hoped to spark an economic boom with taxpayer-funded technology. Overall, the model has been a dramatic success. The transfer of technology from university labs into offices, factories and stores was fundamental to the growth of Silicon Valley and the success of the new economy. Since 1980, university inventions licensed to the private sector under Bayh-Dole have spawned over 2,200 new companies that generate about $30 billion in economic activity every year, according to the Association of University Technology Managers. Statistics like these explain the enduring enthusiasm among most policy experts for privatizing the public's intellectual property. But a few eloquent dissenters have begun to argue that taking privatization of the nation's intellectual property too far could stifle innovation and suffocate economic growth. The champion of this broad thesis is Stanford law professor Larry Lessig, who has just outlined this argument in a new book, "The Future of Ideas." Lessig worries that the proper balance between private intellectual property (Microsoft) and the public good (the Internet) has been lost, and our society is blindly moving toward too much private control over intellectual property. "The shift is not occurring with the idea of balance in mind," he wrote; "instead, the shift proceeds as if control were the only value." The most powerful examples that privatizing technology does not always equal progress are public code like the Internet's and open- source software. They are cases of technology that derive their value from being public and free; fences kill them. "The open- source movement is an endorsement of the value of the public domain," Eisenberg says. "It's a striking counter-example to the bias of public policy: that the public domain dooms technology to obscurity." The systemic bias toward privatization, which Bayh-Dole codified into law, has the scientists working on improved versions of the Internet worried. "For the last 20 years, public money has backed proprietary systems software," says Rick Stevens, who is working on "grid computing" software at Argonne National Lab. "We're saying, stop putting public money there." Ian Foster, another computer scientist working at Argonne, agrees. "I believe that in almost all cases, the interests of science and society alike are best served by free distribution of software produced in research labs and universities. Unfortunately, there are still institutions that place significant obstacles in the way of researchers who wish to follow this path. Agencies funding research could help things by making strong statements in favor of open source, so that this is the norm rather than the exception." Some government agencies are starting to get the message. Open- source development for grid software and other supercomputing applications is getting some government funding. The Department of Energy, which runs Argonne, has been supporting open-source projects for years. In April, the National Security Agency announced it would help to make a version of the Linux-based operating system secure enough for the Defense Department to use. Universities are starting to rediscover the value of open-sourcing software, too. Stanford, the institution at the hub of Silicon Valley, lets its faculty release software under a public license. "We pretty much go with what our faculty members want to do," says Kathy Ku, who heads the licensing office there. "We care about the academic mission more that the money." Elsewhere, the struggle goes on. "It's trying to find a balance between the academic mission and commercialization," Johnson, the Utah professor, says. "This is a hot topic in universities right now, and everyone is really struggling with it. Some universities have really gone overboard. It's not going to be an easy thing to resolve." Copyright 2002 Salon.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 18:21:14 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 18:21:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN Featured Sites for January 2002 Message-ID: <20020107022114.81678.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> The SCN home page featured sites for January 2002 has been updated. Patrick Seattle Community Network __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Mon Jan 7 14:36:53 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:36:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: SnoNet to Suspending Operations In-Reply-To: <4155AC0D416BD511851B005004D41488011D00@LAN1> Message-ID: FYI, SnoNet (in Snohomish county) folding its tents... -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Tom Campbell wrote: > > Friends, > > I am pasting in a press release that went out just after New Years. I am > very saddened to report that SnoNet is going to suspend operations pending > any new deals that might come our way. But I am not hopeful. We just > couldn't sustain our multi-faceted business on fee for services. Our burn > rate was too high. We had staked our future on becoming a communication hub > for a variety of service agencies including education and workforce > training. Unfortunately, the political winds shifted and the County > Executive decided to separate three agencies that had been integrated with > SnoNet. This was after two years of working closely together to develop new > applications in the workforce and education field. > > Part of this was personal for me, we had an unexpected third child in our > family, and I decided that I didn't want to work the 60 hours a week that it > would take to reinvigorate the agency. I'm mostly at home helping to take > care of our three boys, assisting my wife with an innovative school called > The Clearwater School that we've started, working part-time and consulting, > winding down SnoNet and a three county IT Skills Gap grant. > > There are lots of lessons to be learned in all of this, and I'd be happy to > share them with anyone at the appropriate time. I believe strongly in the > community networking model and the potential for developing applications > that are of great benefit to the community. I plan to stay in touch and > keep working with AFCN. > > Sincerely, Tom Campbell > > For Immediate Release > > January 3, 2002 > > SnoNet to Suspend Operations > > The Board of Directors of SnoNet, a non-profit Internet company since 1994, > have decided to suspend operations effective January 31th, 2002. > > A combination of factors led to the decision: declining revenues in its > Internet services; difficulty in financing new and unique products; and the > overall climate for funding Internet and non-profit agencies. > > SnoNet has been a leader in the field of community networking. The agency > was created as a result of the Snohomish County Economic Investment Plan > becoming a central part of a countywide effort to spur investment, job > creation, and innovation. SnoNet began before the Internet became widely > used and filled an important niche to spur schools, local governments, > libraries, and non-profit agencies to use technology to extend services and > improve productivity. > > In announcing the decision, Board Co-Chair Larry Hanson stated, "SnoNet has > accomplished much of what it was originally created to provide to our > community. In recent months our board also saw that its mission was no > longer as unique as in the past and many of its services are now widely > available commercially and in the community." > > �SnoNet was instrumental in assisting schools, especially smaller districts > in identifying the value of technology to promote learning� said Wayne > Robertson, Superintendent of the Edmonds School District. SnoNet worked > closely with a number of districts to fund and develop innovative projects > for distance learning. > > Among the achievements of SnoNet are: > > q Creation of a widely used portal web site including community calendar and > access to many non-profit services. > > q Development of SnoVote web site and partnership to bring election > resources to the Internet. > > q Provision of free and reduced web site hosting for non-profits and > associations. > > q Development of MATCHES, a web-based system of connecting employers, > students, and volunteers. > > q Formation of the Technology Services Cooperative, a member-based service > to help non-profits access technology. > > q Use of technology to promote civic engagement in a number of projects from > Healthy Communities, ASCENT 21, and community issues forum. > > q Establishment of the Teens4Teens web site, a program for local teens to > develop web-based content on issues that concerns them. > > q Launch of many workforce and education services in the community including > the Snohomish County Workforce Development Council, SchoolWork Initiative, > and WorkSource. > > �We hate to lose a valuable community resource such as SnoNet. My hope is > that we can find new funding and relaunch SnoNet when we have a favorable > climate and focus for its services,� said Bob Drewel County Executive and > Co-Chair of SnoNet. SnoNet will cease operations January 31st, it has a > transition plan for its customers and clients to ensure continuity of > services. > > �I am extremely proud of what SnoNet has accomplished,� said Tom Campbell, > President of SnoNet. Many around the country looked to SnoNet for a model > of sustainability. �We outlasted many of the dot-com businesses, because we > had a community focus. We had hoped to scale a number of products into a > broader market place, but we simply ran out of gas in a major climate of > belt-tightening.� > > For further information, please contact Tom Campbell @ tomc at snonet.org or > 425.921.3474 work; 206.817.2773 cell; or 206.364.9711 home. > > Tom Campbell > President/CEO > SnoNet: www.snonet.org > ph:425.921.3474; Fx:425.921.3484 > > Please Continue to Use tomc at snonet.org When Replying to This Email > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Mon Jan 7 23:57:20 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 23:57:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <002a01c19806$eb1da9a0$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: "A simple e-mail would suffice"?! Hah! You've already gotten the "simple" e-mail. And if Steve was to publish a worksheet he'd want to check it (so someone doesn't pillory him for an error), maybe even update it, and all that would take TIME HE DOESN'T HAVE! Which I know, because there are some pretty critical items he hasn't been able to get to yet. And I'd rather he wasn't distracted. (Steve: don't do it!) This whole discussion of setting up some kind of chargeable service is fools dream, because there are quite sufficient reasons why it isn't going to happen any time soon. And it's a waste of everyone's time, because the reasons have been explained. If 'emailer1' (whoever he is) thinks differently, he is quite free to set up his own service. === JJ ============================================================= On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, emailer1 wrote: > Steve, > > This was a very useful response. You were specific enough to move the > discussion forward. > > Could you publish your worksheet that you used to cost out the $5-10 million > figure. (How much for staff, for hardware, for connectivity, etc.) A > simple e-mail would suffice. > > Thanks in advance. This will add a lot of clarity to the discussion. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: patrick > To: Steve Guest ; ; Marilyn Sheck > ; > Cc: ; > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 1:51 AM > Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > > > > Unfortunately, the computer age has created a huge disparity between > > the haves and have-nots. The haves having computers and internet and > > the havenots having neither. > > > > A computer is fairly easy to come by now, but affordable internet > > access is not. > > > > Kids are often assigned homework which includes searching the > > internet for answers. Guess who gets screwed? > > > > And just being in on the loop of things, the internet is becoming as > > 'necessary' as the phone. Especially for kids. Economic disparity > > leads to social disparity. And less opportunities for those with > > disparity. > > > > I would hope that there is someone out there addressing this to the > > government, Congress, the IRS. > > > > Patrick > > > > --- Steve Guest wrote: > > > Well we could debate this for months. Let me clear up a few things > > > first: > > > 1) We are technically an ISP, but since Microsoft started putting > > > the connect to the internet icon on its desk top the idea of what > > > is an ISP has changed. We are an ISP which does not offer direct > > > connection to the Internet, only to a server on the Internet. We > > > were and still are a founding member of Washington Association of > > > Internet Service Providers (WAISP) which is a lobbying group. But > > > due to the failure of most of the local ISPs to either survive or > > > not get eaten by the national big fish, WAISP could soon die from a > > > lack of membership. So it depends on your definition of an ISP. > > > 2) As far as the costs for an ISP - these are well know and we > > > have investigated them. If we were to take NWNexos for example, it > > > had a budget of several millions when WindStar bought it and still > > > it failed to be profitable. There are way too many factors to make > > > this a simple calculation. We would also change our profile and > > > start to impact others like wolfnet, drizzle and eskimo. There are > > > several ISPs open to offers in the area, go look at their books if > > > you think this is a viable proposition. From my costings, I worked > > > out that we would need about $5-10 Million a year for SCN's > > > operations and service to be "professional", plus a major culture > > > shift. Which is way too many $10 customers. > > > 3) I am confused by the 501(c)3 comment. Lobbying is not a high > > > priority for SCNA at present. The thing that Eugene did, as far as > > > I can see, is that it needed money and decided to do a fee for > > > service. They didn't read the small print though. Any fee for > > > service is fine if the service is educational, but as a connection > > > to the Internet, it is deemed by the IRS to not be educational. > > > They currently agree that the service is educational, but the > > > connection to the internet is offered by 100s of other vendors > > > which are commercial. Therefore this breaks the 501(c)3 agreement > > > with the IRS. Plus it brings us back to the first point - we are a > > > connection to a "service" which is educational and on the Internet. > > > > > > Personally, if I thought a for-profit with low cost for service > > > would make a profit, I would be doing that rather than working for > > > SCN as a volunteer CEO. Plus I think I know where I could have > > > gotten a few "staff" that might wish to work for me rather than > > > volunteering. So if running a cheap access ISP were profitable, > > > then where are they? They came and most went with the dot.coms. > > > > > > Steve > > > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > > > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org > > > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > > > (425) 653 7353 http://www.scn.org/ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: emailer1 > > > To: Marilyn Sheck ; scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > > > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > > > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 1:42 AM > > > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > > > > > > > > > The key part of Steve Guest's message is the following: > > > ____________________ > > > "I do not see SCN being able to commit > > > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > > > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is > > > initialy an > > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for > > > Seattle. > > > We were never in the free ISP business." > > > _____________________ > > > > > > The above contains a Catch 22 element. (1) We do not have the > > > funds and staff to support a full ISP (including standard graphical > > > functions); and (2) we will continue to offer a very limited type > > > of service and so we will NEVER attract or bring in the funds to > > > support such a full ISP service. > > > > > > Rather than mere speculation, it will be necessary to get a > > > proper accounting (indepent) to determine > > > 1. How much funding it would take to operate an independent, > > > proper ISP. (Staff and hardware) > > > 2. How many paying subscribers it would take (at $10/month) to > > > support such an ISP service. (This price would under cut almost > > > all other services.) > > > 3. How many low-income subscriptions could be offered for little > > > or no cost under this full ISP scenario. > > > > > > If the answers to 1 and 2 are positive (i.e., it would be doable > > > to get enough subscribers to fully fund all aspects of a complete > > > ISP service), THEN it would be appropriate to discuss abandoning > > > the tax-free status and switch to a for-profit service. > > > > > > By the way, the tax-free status comes at a cost: SCNA cannot > > > lobby. SCNA, like Eugene was, is severely limited by the IRS as to > > > what low-income services it can offer and as to what philosophical > > > stance it can follow actively. > > > > > > The library connection also has similar costs. If SCNA actually > > > did become active (read "controversial"), the library could no > > > longer provide free connection. As Steve pointed out, "(SCN)A is > > > initialy an email and maillist site." The design of the > > > organization is limited by that earlier small mission. Keeping the > > > library "sponsorship" and the subsequent tax-free status prevent > > > SCNA from being a desireable ISP and from being an effective > > > community influence. > > > > > > Until an independent accounting can answer 1, 2, & 3, there is no > > > way to describe SCNA's potential or future. It can only continue > > > to drift. > > > > > > P.S. > > > > > > About the statement: "We were never in the free ISP business." > > > > > > Actually, that is exactly what we used to tell everyone -- that > > > we WERE a free ISP. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Marilyn Sheck > > > To: scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > > > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 1:53 PM > > > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > > > > > > > > > Well said, Steve. And, YES, you are right about the library > > > not being able > > > to sustain your internet feed if your traffic increased. We > > > are already having > > > trouble with our bandwidth just with SCN in its present form > > > combined with > > > our own services. We would not be able to use public funds, > > > which is what > > > we pay for the Internet connection with, to support SCN's > > > connection if it > > > is more than a small fraction of our overall bandwidth usage. > > > > > > >>> steveg at scn.org 12/21/01 01:08PM >>> > > > Hi > > > Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the other > > > hand, this is > > > basic command style access and not FREE Internet access. I > > > agree it would > > > be great to offer such services, but we have address some > > > important issues > > > first. > > > > > > Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet access. > > > > > > 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to the > > > Internet via > > > our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to the > > > Internet, then > > > the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably. This would > > > be > > > followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed, because > > > currently I > > > have been led to believe that the Library would not be able to > > > justify the > > > cost of the service. This would mean that we would have to > > > provide our > > > own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need then to be > > > in the > > > Library because we are then simply taking up their limited > > > space. So if > > > this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the phone > > > lines, the > > > Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. We do > > > not have the > > > budget for this and we would be out of funds within months or > > > weeks. > > > > > > 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as indicated > > > that > > > Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of worms. > > > First lets > > > point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a whole > > > different set of > > > rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are already > > > looking at > > > FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on the > > > educational value > > > of the service. As soon as we set up a competing service with > > > a > > > commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service - in an > > > area which > > > is not directly education then we fall outside the charitable > > > status. > > > Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened or is > > > happening to > > > Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company to sell > > > their fee > > > for service IP connections and break away from the educational > > > section. > > > Again something that would put us at odds with the Library and > > > its > > > donation to us. > > > > > > The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten to SCN, > > > but we are > > > in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal. > > > > > > Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this, understand the > > > Library's > > > view, have the funds and staff to support this and the software > > > to ensure > > > that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN being able > > > to commit > > > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > > > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is > > > initialy an > > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource > > > for Seattle. > > > We were never in the free ISP business. > > > > > > I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say we > > > cannot discuss > > > these points, but we need to ensure that we can support our > > > current > > > services before we branch into others. > > > > > > Steve > > > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > > > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org > > > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > > > (425) 653 7353 > > > http://www.scn.org/ > > > > > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. Victoria > > > freenet > > > > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is a great > > > deal. > > > > > > > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail or some > > > other > > > > web-based service to check their mail, after they have surfed > > > the net > > > > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it hard to go > > > to a > > > > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New Lease on > > > Life" is > > > > > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadline > s%2Dtechnology > > > > > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * > > > * * * * > > > > > * * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > > > web at: > > > > > ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ > > > * * * * > > > > > * * * > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > * * * * * > > > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' > > > internal > > > communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have > > > questions > > > about this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today > Only $9.95 per month! > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Tue Jan 8 07:44:43 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 07:44:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks In-Reply-To: <20011214175727.10000.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry about the very delayed reply. Very cool stuff, indofar as I understand (which is admittedly not far: I'm a software guy, not very h/w knoledgeable). Obviously creating such a network would not be an endeavor for SCN as such, but is it possbile that somewhere under the umbrella of SCNA there might be room to start an interest group or something? Or is there something else already under way in Seattle that we could at least refer people to if they are interested? -------------------- Joe Mabel On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > New O'Reilly book out called Building Wireless Community Networks: > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/ > > Thanks to Apple, they have found a way to expand computing to new > horizons with this highspeed wireless networking to a cool, new > level. It's almost subversive, isn't it? > > Patrick > Seattle Community Network > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Jan 8 08:38:20 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:38:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <009201c19066$780f0a00$d9a7e13f@dellxpsr350> Message-ID: I hadn't realized that the note on the Los Angeles Free-Net would generate such excitement! My original intent was not that we necessarily need to emulate L.A. but just to show that some of the *old* technology, ideas, and services (from the pre dot.com / dot.gone era) are still useful and viable. I do want to weigh in a tiny bit on these current issues, however. The first is related to Steve Guest's comment: > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is initialy an > email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for > Seattle. We were never in the free ISP business." When we set up SCN nearly a decade ago we knew that technology would be changing. For that reason we didn't put in our principles (http://www.scn.org/commnet/principles.html) very much at all about specific technology. IMO SCN is in the access to information and communication business, not (just) in the email and maillist business. The final commitment in our principles, "Commitment to the Future" states that "We will continue to evolve and improve the SCN" and lists the following: We will explore the use of innovative applications such as electronic town halls for community governance, or electronic encyclopedias for enhanced access to information. We will work with information providers and with groups involved in similar projects using other media. We will solicit feedback on the technology as it is used, and make it as accessible and humane as possible. In other words, there is no reason to think that we are necessarily stuck with the status quo at any point. The second point I'd like to make is that lots of people have ideas as to where SCN might go -- full ISP, fee-for-service, etc. I, like everybody else have my opinions, but It seems to me that there has to be a better way than people making a suggestion and then other people coming back with the conclusion that the suggestion is bad, impossible, stupid, etc. If there is a concept that some people think is interesting or worth considering, why don't they put together some type of committee or group and develop a thoughtful, well-reasoned recommendation that they can then bring up to the board and to the membership. I'm not necessarily saying I'm in favor of either charging for service or providing full Internet access but I do believe that there *might* be ways to do either of these that still meet our needs and constraints. Thanks! -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jw4 at scn.org Tue Jan 8 08:39:20 2002 From: jw4 at scn.org (Joel Ware IV) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:39:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: With my SCNA Director hat on, I have raised "wireless community net" with the Board as a possible direction for us. I think that as Joe says, the most likely avenue is for SCNA to establish partnership with a local group that does the network infrastructure development, while we focus on the community issues. Regards, -Joel. --- On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Joe Mabel wrote: > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 07:44:43 -0800 (PST) > From: Joe Mabel > To: patrick > Cc: "scn at scn.org" > Subject: Re: SCN: building wireless community networks > > Sorry about the very delayed reply. > Very cool stuff, indofar as I understand (which is admittedly not far: I'm a > software guy, not very h/w knoledgeable). > Obviously creating such a network would not be an endeavor for SCN as such, but > is it possbile that somewhere under the umbrella of SCNA there might be room to > start an interest group or something? Or is there something else already under > way in Seattle that we could at least refer people to if they are interested? > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > New O'Reilly book out called Building Wireless Community Networks: > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/ > > > > Thanks to Apple, they have found a way to expand computing to new > > horizons with this highspeed wireless networking to a cool, new > > level. It's almost subversive, isn't it? > > > > Patrick > > Seattle Community Network > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Joel Ware, IV jw4 at scn.org Volunteer Coordinator Emeritus, Member of Governance, HR, Ops, Board * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From brian at happygardening.com Tue Jan 8 08:50:43 2002 From: brian at happygardening.com (Brian High) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:50:43 -0800 Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks References: Message-ID: <001501c19864$9d4e7200$4200005a@happygardening.com> If this is already being done by: http://seattlewireless.net/ then how does SCN feel it can contribute to that effort? Or will SCN duplicate that effort? --Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel Ware IV" To: "Joe Mabel" Cc: "patrick" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:39 AM Subject: Re: SCN: building wireless community networks > With my SCNA Director hat on, I have raised "wireless community net" with > the Board as a possible direction for us. > I think that as Joe says, the most likely avenue is for SCNA to > establish partnership with a local group that does the network > infrastructure development, while we focus on the community issues. > > Regards, > -Joel. > > --- > > On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 07:44:43 -0800 (PST) > > From: Joe Mabel > > To: patrick > > Cc: "scn at scn.org" > > Subject: Re: SCN: building wireless community networks > > > > Sorry about the very delayed reply. > > Very cool stuff, indofar as I understand (which is admittedly not far: I'm a > > software guy, not very h/w knoledgeable). > > Obviously creating such a network would not be an endeavor for SCN as such, but > > is it possbile that somewhere under the umbrella of SCNA there might be room to > > start an interest group or something? Or is there something else already under > > way in Seattle that we could at least refer people to if they are interested? > > > > -------------------- > > Joe Mabel > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > New O'Reilly book out called Building Wireless Community Networks: > > > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/ > > > > > > Thanks to Apple, they have found a way to expand computing to new > > > horizons with this highspeed wireless networking to a cool, new > > > level. It's almost subversive, isn't it? > > > > > > Patrick > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > Joel Ware, IV jw4 at scn.org > Volunteer Coordinator Emeritus, Member of Governance, HR, Ops, Board > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Jan 8 08:53:49 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:53:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: IF they don't have a 501.c.3 group to work with while they're transitioning into one, SCNA would seem a logical place... -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Joel Ware IV wrote: > With my SCNA Director hat on, I have raised "wireless community net" with > the Board as a possible direction for us. > I think that as Joe says, the most likely avenue is for SCNA to > establish partnership with a local group that does the network > infrastructure development, while we focus on the community issues. > > Regards, > -Joel. > > --- > > On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 07:44:43 -0800 (PST) > > From: Joe Mabel > > To: patrick > > Cc: "scn at scn.org" > > Subject: Re: SCN: building wireless community networks > > > > Sorry about the very delayed reply. > > Very cool stuff, indofar as I understand (which is admittedly not far: I'm a > > software guy, not very h/w knoledgeable). > > Obviously creating such a network would not be an endeavor for SCN as such, but > > is it possbile that somewhere under the umbrella of SCNA there might be room to > > start an interest group or something? Or is there something else already under > > way in Seattle that we could at least refer people to if they are interested? > > > > -------------------- > > Joe Mabel > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > New O'Reilly book out called Building Wireless Community Networks: > > > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/ > > > > > > Thanks to Apple, they have found a way to expand computing to new > > > horizons with this highspeed wireless networking to a cool, new > > > level. It's almost subversive, isn't it? > > > > > > Patrick > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > Joel Ware, IV jw4 at scn.org > Volunteer Coordinator Emeritus, Member of Governance, HR, Ops, Board > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Jan 8 10:35:15 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:35:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks In-Reply-To: <001501c19864$9d4e7200$4200005a@happygardening.com> Message-ID: <20020108183515.90970.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Seattle Wireless only has a network plan in place. They would have the pipe and we have the data. P- --- Brian High wrote: > If this is already being done by: > > http://seattlewireless.net/ > > then how does SCN feel it can contribute > to that effort? Or will SCN duplicate that > effort? > > --Brian > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joel Ware IV" > To: "Joe Mabel" > Cc: "patrick" ; > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:39 AM > Subject: Re: SCN: building wireless community networks > > > > With my SCNA Director hat on, I have raised "wireless community > net" with > > the Board as a possible direction for us. > > I think that as Joe says, the most likely avenue is for SCNA to > > establish partnership with a local group that does the network > > infrastructure development, while we focus on the community > issues. > > > > Regards, > > -Joel. > > > > --- > > > > On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > > Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 07:44:43 -0800 (PST) > > > From: Joe Mabel > > > To: patrick > > > Cc: "scn at scn.org" > > > Subject: Re: SCN: building wireless community networks > > > > > > Sorry about the very delayed reply. > > > Very cool stuff, indofar as I understand (which is admittedly > not far: > I'm a > > > software guy, not very h/w knoledgeable). > > > Obviously creating such a network would not be an endeavor for > SCN as > such, but > > > is it possbile that somewhere under the umbrella of SCNA there > might be > room to > > > start an interest group or something? Or is there something > else already > under > > > way in Seattle that we could at least refer people to if they > are > interested? > > > > > > -------------------- > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > New O'Reilly book out called Building Wireless Community > Networks: > > > > > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/ > > > > > > > > Thanks to Apple, they have found a way to expand computing to > new > > > > horizons with this highspeed wireless networking to a cool, > new > > > > level. It's almost subversive, isn't it? > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * > * * * * * > * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > web at: > ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * > * * * * * > * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > * * * * * > > > > > > > Joel Ware, IV jw4 at scn.org > > Volunteer Coordinator Emeritus, Member of Governance, HR, Ops, > Board > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Jan 8 10:54:17 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:54:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020108185417.79987.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, Thanks for the response. Hmmm, I was getting the impression that SCN never change and it could remain to be the Amish of the internet society. With the new site redesign in place, that should bring SCN a little closer from 1995 to 2002. P- --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > I hadn't realized that the note on the Los Angeles Free-Net would > generate such excitement! > > My original intent was not that we necessarily need to emulate L.A. > but > just to show that some of the *old* technology, ideas, and services > (from > the pre dot.com / dot.gone era) are still useful and viable. > > I do want to weigh in a tiny bit on these current issues, however. > > The first is related to Steve Guest's comment: > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is > initialy an > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for > > Seattle. We were never in the free ISP business." > > When we set up SCN nearly a decade ago we knew that technology > would be > changing. For that reason we didn't put in our principles > (http://www.scn.org/commnet/principles.html) very much at all about > specific technology. IMO SCN is in the access to information and > communication business, not (just) in the email and maillist > business. > > The final commitment in our principles, "Commitment to the Future" > states > that "We will continue to evolve and improve the SCN" and lists the > following: > > We will explore the use of innovative applications such as > electronic town halls for community governance, or electronic > encyclopedias for enhanced access to information. > > We will work with information providers and with groups > involved in similar projects using other media. > > We will solicit feedback on the technology as it is used, > and make it as accessible and humane as possible. > > In other words, there is no reason to think that we are necessarily > stuck > with the status quo at any point. > > The second point I'd like to make is that lots of people have ideas > as to > where SCN might go -- full ISP, fee-for-service, etc. > > I, like everybody else have my opinions, but It seems to me that > there > has to be a better way than people making a suggestion and then > other > people coming back with the conclusion that the suggestion is bad, > impossible, stupid, etc. > > If there is a concept that some people think is interesting or > worth > considering, why don't they put together some type of committee or > group > and develop a thoughtful, well-reasoned recommendation that they > can then > bring up to the board and to the membership. > > I'm not necessarily saying I'm in favor of either charging for > service or > providing full Internet access but I do believe that there *might* > be ways > to do either of these that still meet our needs and constraints. > > Thanks! > > -- Doug > > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY > * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change > * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 > * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure > * > * is being shaped today. > * > * But by whom and to what ends? > * > > ****************************************************************** > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Jan 8 12:58:29 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 12:58:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: wireless community list Message-ID: <20020108205829.7230.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Here is a list of wireless communities around the world: http://www.toaster.net/wireless/community.html Patrick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Jan 8 13:06:39 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:06:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020108210639.46298.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Joe, Was this answered already? I've had a hectic day/week: http://www.seattlewireless.net There is not much to having a wireless network. If you have a WiFi or Apple AirPort card installed in your computer, then get onto a DSL connection, you can have about 50 people logging into your DSL connection. That is it, more or less. So it is a matter of organizing people to volunteer to have their machine set up to be a wireless station while people can securely tap into the pipe. Patrick --- Joe Mabel wrote: > Sorry about the very delayed reply. > Very cool stuff, indofar as I understand (which is admittedly not > far: I'm a > software guy, not very h/w knoledgeable). > Obviously creating such a network would not be an endeavor for SCN > as such, but > is it possbile that somewhere under the umbrella of SCNA there > might be room to > start an interest group or something? Or is there something else > already under > way in Seattle that we could at least refer people to if they are > interested? > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > New O'Reilly book out called Building Wireless Community > Networks: > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/ > > > > Thanks to Apple, they have found a way to expand computing to new > > horizons with this highspeed wireless networking to a cool, new > > level. It's almost subversive, isn't it? > > > > Patrick > > Seattle Community Network > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Jan 8 13:30:28 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:30:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks In-Reply-To: <20020108210639.46298.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't know a lot either... I did attend the wireless community networks "summit" last Sunday down in Georgetown. They had people from the UK, NYC, Portland, the Bay Area, etc. Mostly hardware talk but the Bay Area guy (see www.bawug.org) presented a network that he had set up at Burning Man. I gave a tiny presentation in which I mentioned that I thought the social side was *very* important and not to be neglected - what are these netowrks *FOR*?? Some of the people I talked to said that they were originaly interested in the hardware but have now come to appreciate the social implications. I get the impression that the Seattle group is among the most ambitious and most organized but this may be just an impression. I've asked them to conduct a "Wireless 101" at the May CPSR conference. As for the connecting loads of people to the Internet via a shared DSL my recollection is that the people at the summit advised AGAINST that idea. This helps promote the idea that this effort is a hacker/pirate effort. -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, patrick wrote: > Joe, > > Was this answered already? I've had a hectic day/week: > > http://www.seattlewireless.net > > There is not much to having a wireless network. If you have a WiFi or > Apple AirPort card installed in your computer, then get onto a DSL > connection, you can have about 50 people logging into your DSL > connection. That is it, more or less. > > So it is a matter of organizing people to volunteer to have their > machine set up to be a wireless station while people can securely tap > into the pipe. > > Patrick > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > Sorry about the very delayed reply. > > Very cool stuff, indofar as I understand (which is admittedly not > > far: I'm a > > software guy, not very h/w knoledgeable). > > Obviously creating such a network would not be an endeavor for SCN > > as such, but > > is it possbile that somewhere under the umbrella of SCNA there > > might be room to > > start an interest group or something? Or is there something else > > already under > > way in Seattle that we could at least refer people to if they are > > interested? > > > > -------------------- > > Joe Mabel > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > New O'Reilly book out called Building Wireless Community > > Networks: > > > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/ > > > > > > Thanks to Apple, they have found a way to expand computing to new > > > horizons with this highspeed wireless networking to a cool, new > > > level. It's almost subversive, isn't it? > > > > > > Patrick > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > > * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > > at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > > * * * * > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Jan 8 13:32:49 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:32:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks In-Reply-To: <20020108210639.46298.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I also meant to add that SCNA could provide the transitional 501.c.3 designation for the SEattle group if they wanted to raise funds, etc. They might have this status already, however. -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, patrick wrote: > Joe, > > Was this answered already? I've had a hectic day/week: > > http://www.seattlewireless.net > > There is not much to having a wireless network. If you have a WiFi or > Apple AirPort card installed in your computer, then get onto a DSL > connection, you can have about 50 people logging into your DSL > connection. That is it, more or less. > > So it is a matter of organizing people to volunteer to have their > machine set up to be a wireless station while people can securely tap > into the pipe. > > Patrick > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > Sorry about the very delayed reply. > > Very cool stuff, indofar as I understand (which is admittedly not > > far: I'm a > > software guy, not very h/w knoledgeable). > > Obviously creating such a network would not be an endeavor for SCN > > as such, but > > is it possbile that somewhere under the umbrella of SCNA there > > might be room to > > start an interest group or something? Or is there something else > > already under > > way in Seattle that we could at least refer people to if they are > > interested? > > > > -------------------- > > Joe Mabel > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > New O'Reilly book out called Building Wireless Community > > Networks: > > > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/ > > > > > > Thanks to Apple, they have found a way to expand computing to new > > > horizons with this highspeed wireless networking to a cool, new > > > level. It's almost subversive, isn't it? > > > > > > Patrick > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > > * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > > at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > > * * * * > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From alboss at scn.org Tue Jan 8 13:56:23 2002 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 13:56:23 -0800 Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks References: Message-ID: <3C3B6B07.7080500@scn.org> An interesting concept. I imagine it bears looking into, as long as we don't lose sight of a few things: 1) we can't even agree on what we're supposed to be doing with the stuff we're already doing 2) is cost a barrier for users to access a wireless network? Or does the opposite hold true? I don't know the answer to this; I'm not that savvy about wireless networks.) (Here I'm thinking of the SCN principles regarding our particular focus on providing access to those without ready access to information technology, and on being accessible from public places. Would a wireless community network increase access to us, or just provide a different method of access to those who could afford the hardware?) 3) are we prepared to get slapped with a lawsuit from an ISP whose service is being "donated" to the wireless network? It's only a matter of time before they make an example out of someone. Our 501(c)3 status makes us an attractive target if the goal is to scare people, get a lot of press, and prove that they're willing to sue anyone who shares their wireless access. Don't get me wrong; I like the idea. I just urge caution and careful planning. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Tue Jan 8 14:01:20 2002 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:01:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is 'emailer1' a real person with a name? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From alboss at scn.org Tue Jan 8 14:18:12 2002 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 14:18:12 -0800 Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times References: Message-ID: <3C3B7024.7080502@scn.org> I'm all for us finding ways to fund ourselves. I do think, though, that we should look into one that at least 3/4 of us agree is a good idea. Overlooking all sides of the argument about whether or not we could legally charge for a higher level of Internet service and what kind of expenses we'd need toward overhead like people, places, and stuff, I just don't think it makes any business sense. The ISP business is pretty well-saturated here. And the profit margins are not very good. And most new ones don't survive. I'd guess that ISPs chances of turning a sustainable profit are about the same as those of a new restaurant. Most restaurants fail in their first year of business. If we want to sell something to augment our operating costs, we should consider selling something less labor-intensive and with a better return on investment than Internet service. (No, not our bodies. I love you guys, but there's a limit.) Holding bake sales at the exit gates of rock concerts would get us a whole lot more money for less headache than trying to provide a low-cost ISP service. (And it would be more entertaining.) Having SCN volunteers donating fees from consulting on network security, doing computer repairs, or ghost-writing flame mails seems more viable to me than a lot of what we've been discussing in this thread. Al * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From alboss at scn.org Tue Jan 8 14:26:04 2002 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 14:26:04 -0800 Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times References: Message-ID: <3C3B71FC.5060306@scn.org> Irene Mogol wrote: > Is 'emailer1' a real person with a name? See: http://fury.com/aoliza/index2.php * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From starsrus at scn.org Tue Jan 8 14:46:53 2002 From: starsrus at scn.org (Kenneth Applegate) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:46:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <3C3B7024.7080502@scn.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Al Boss wrote: > > Holding bake sales at the exit gates of rock concerts would get us a > whole lot more money for less headache than trying to provide a low-cost > ISP service. (And it would be more entertaining.) Having SCN volunteers > donating fees from consulting on network security, doing computer > repairs, or *** ghost-writing flame mails seems more viable to me than a > lot of what we've been discussing in this thread.*** Now, that last suggestion could be a winner - we have some real flaming Pros in SCN! :>) Ken Applegate > > Al > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Ken Applegate How do you identify astronomers from Seattle? By the windshield wipers on their telescopes! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randell at scn.org Tue Jan 8 15:58:59 2002 From: randell at scn.org (Randy Hayhurst) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:58:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <001c01c18ec9$7a268500$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: If we used to say we are a free ISP, then whoever said that was not telling the truth. Just because you say it doesn't make it so. If SCN decides to no longer be a not for profit company, I would no longer support it in any way. I wish I had seen this message sooner, as I agree with Steve and the logic he follows to make his statements, and question the reasoning of those who don't. Sincerely, in community, Randy * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randell at scn.org Tue Jan 8 16:26:36 2002 From: randell at scn.org (Randy Hayhurst) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 16:26:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Jeez Louise!!!!! In-Reply-To: <20020101033605.18390.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't know if the flu is coming back to affect me or if the string of SCNA Board related e-mails is making me dizzy!!!! I have been trying and trying since 1999 to detect a sense of team work among the members of this organization. If team work was heat, we would all freeze to death. Seems to me there are a lot of "lone Rangers" who prevent the majority of hard working members from actually doing the work of running a sustainable, productive business by pushing their own agendas. We spend so much valuable time quibbling over intangibles that I fear we will lose our grip on the tangibles. I'm logging off for today. I will take lots of vitamins tonight so I will have the endurance to see what else is in the remainder of my unopened SNA-Board related e-mail. Thanks for all the work you do! Randy * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Jan 8 16:39:07 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 16:39:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: Jeez Louise!!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020109003907.29100.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Randy, I thought there was only one agenda: Mine. Just kidding. Seriously, I often wonder why anyone would make a big deal about what they are doing as a volunteer for an organization. If that is the case, then they need to get a life. I have so many other things to do, so many things I want to read, I want to learn, that a squabble at SCN is the last thing on my list. I never have time for everything that I want to do, but I make time for SCN, as I make time for the other things that I want to do. Patrick- Seattle Community Network --- Randy Hayhurst wrote: > I don't know if the flu is coming back to affect me or if the > string of > SCNA Board related e-mails is making me dizzy!!!! > > I have been trying and trying since 1999 to detect a sense of team > work > among the members of this organization. > > If team work was heat, we would all freeze to death. > > Seems to me there are a lot of "lone Rangers" who prevent the > majority of > hard working members from actually doing the work of running a > sustainable, productive business by pushing their own agendas. > > We spend so much valuable time quibbling over intangibles that I > fear we > will lose our grip on the tangibles. > > I'm logging off for today. > > I will take lots of vitamins tonight so I will have the endurance > to see > what else is in the remainder of my unopened SNA-Board related > e-mail. > > > Thanks for all the work you do! > > Randy > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Jan 8 20:55:05 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 20:55:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020109045505.13027.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, What type of connection or system do they propose or support? If no DSL or cable connection, what type of set-up? Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > I don't know a lot either... > > I did attend the wireless community networks "summit" last > Sunday down in Georgetown. They had people from the UK, > NYC, Portland, the Bay Area, etc. Mostly hardware talk but > the Bay Area guy (see www.bawug.org) presented a > network that he had set up at Burning Man. I gave a tiny > presentation in which I mentioned that I thought the > social side was *very* important and not to be neglected - > what are these netowrks *FOR*?? Some of the people I > talked to said that they were originaly interested in > the hardware but have now come to appreciate the social > implications. > > I get the impression that the Seattle group is among > the most ambitious and most organized but this may be > just an impression. I've asked them to conduct a > "Wireless 101" at the May CPSR conference. > > As for the connecting loads of people to the Internet > via a shared DSL my recollection is that the people at > the summit advised AGAINST that idea. This helps promote > the idea that this effort is a hacker/pirate effort. > > -- Doug > > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY > * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change > * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 > * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure > * > * is being shaped today. > * > * But by whom and to what ends? > * > > ****************************************************************** > > > On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, patrick wrote: > > > Joe, > > > > Was this answered already? I've had a hectic day/week: > > > > http://www.seattlewireless.net > > > > There is not much to having a wireless network. If you have a > WiFi or > > Apple AirPort card installed in your computer, then get onto a > DSL > > connection, you can have about 50 people logging into your DSL > > connection. That is it, more or less. > > > > So it is a matter of organizing people to volunteer to have their > > machine set up to be a wireless station while people can securely > tap > > into the pipe. > > > > Patrick > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > Sorry about the very delayed reply. > > > Very cool stuff, indofar as I understand (which is admittedly > not > > > far: I'm a > > > software guy, not very h/w knoledgeable). > > > Obviously creating such a network would not be an endeavor for > SCN > > > as such, but > > > is it possbile that somewhere under the umbrella of SCNA there > > > might be room to > > > start an interest group or something? Or is there something > else > > > already under > > > way in Seattle that we could at least refer people to if they > are > > > interested? > > > > > > -------------------- > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > New O'Reilly book out called Building Wireless Community > > > Networks: > > > > > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/ > > > > > > > > Thanks to Apple, they have found a way to expand computing to > new > > > > horizons with this highspeed wireless networking to a cool, > new > > > > level. It's almost subversive, isn't it? > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > web > > > at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * > * * > > > * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Wed Jan 9 02:02:01 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 02:02:01 -0800 Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times References: Message-ID: <000801c198f4$b07e6480$7152fea9@desktop> There are some good thoughts floating around about SCN options. This is a discussion that should continue. However, a quick item first. This JJ and Irene are asking for my name. Steve Guest sent me a very polite private inquiry about the same thing. I politely answered that I preferred anonymity, for several reasons. One of the reasons is exemplified by the note below; this JJ can be pretty mean to people. However, the main point is that discussion should focus on the issues, not on the sender. Back to the discussion. Doug suggested a task force to look at the issue of a different ISP structure. I concur. I earlier suggested an assessment of the costs of a self-supporting ISP structure. I think it would have to be an independent assessment. However, it would be useful if Steve did lay out the specifics of the estimate he said he did, as a starting point. If presented as an estimate, it would not be vulnerable to antagonism, as JJ fears. Al also opined that self funding would be unsuccessful. Many share this opinion, but these guesses are not a good basis for decision-making. It was just reported that a network in Snohomish County bit the dust. However, it was not clear to me that the reasons were applicable to SCNA's situation. Does anyone have an idea as to how SCNA could get an objective assessment of the cost of self funding? ----- Original Message ----- From: J. Johnson To: emailer1 Cc: patrick ; Steve Guest ; ; Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 11:57 PM Subject: Re: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > "A simple e-mail would suffice"?! Hah! You've already gotten the "simple" > e-mail. And if Steve was to publish a worksheet he'd want to check it (so > someone doesn't pillory him for an error), maybe even update it, and all > that would take TIME HE DOESN'T HAVE! Which I know, because there are > some pretty critical items he hasn't been able to get to yet. And I'd > rather he wasn't distracted. (Steve: don't do it!) > > This whole discussion of setting up some kind of chargeable service is > fools dream, because there are quite sufficient reasons why it isn't going > to happen any time soon. And it's a waste of everyone's time, because the > reasons have been explained. If 'emailer1' (whoever he is) thinks > differently, he is quite free to set up his own service. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, emailer1 wrote: > > > Steve, > > > > This was a very useful response. You were specific enough to move the > > discussion forward. > > > > Could you publish your worksheet that you used to cost out the $5-10 million > > figure. (How much for staff, for hardware, for connectivity, etc.) A > > simple e-mail would suffice. > > > > Thanks in advance. This will add a lot of clarity to the discussion. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: patrick > > To: Steve Guest ; ; Marilyn Sheck > > ; > > Cc: ; > > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 1:51 AM > > Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the computer age has created a huge disparity between > > > the haves and have-nots. The haves having computers and internet and > > > the havenots having neither. > > > > > > A computer is fairly easy to come by now, but affordable internet > > > access is not. > > > > > > Kids are often assigned homework which includes searching the > > > internet for answers. Guess who gets screwed? > > > > > > And just being in on the loop of things, the internet is becoming as > > > 'necessary' as the phone. Especially for kids. Economic disparity > > > leads to social disparity. And less opportunities for those with > > > disparity. > > > > > > I would hope that there is someone out there addressing this to the > > > government, Congress, the IRS. > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > --- Steve Guest wrote: > > > > Well we could debate this for months. Let me clear up a few things > > > > first: > > > > 1) We are technically an ISP, but since Microsoft started putting > > > > the connect to the internet icon on its desk top the idea of what > > > > is an ISP has changed. We are an ISP which does not offer direct > > > > connection to the Internet, only to a server on the Internet. We > > > > were and still are a founding member of Washington Association of > > > > Internet Service Providers (WAISP) which is a lobbying group. But > > > > due to the failure of most of the local ISPs to either survive or > > > > not get eaten by the national big fish, WAISP could soon die from a > > > > lack of membership. So it depends on your definition of an ISP. > > > > 2) As far as the costs for an ISP - these are well know and we > > > > have investigated them. If we were to take NWNexos for example, it > > > > had a budget of several millions when WindStar bought it and still > > > > it failed to be profitable. There are way too many factors to make > > > > this a simple calculation. We would also change our profile and > > > > start to impact others like wolfnet, drizzle and eskimo. There are > > > > several ISPs open to offers in the area, go look at their books if > > > > you think this is a viable proposition. From my costings, I worked > > > > out that we would need about $5-10 Million a year for SCN's > > > > operations and service to be "professional", plus a major culture > > > > shift. Which is way too many $10 customers. > > > > 3) I am confused by the 501(c)3 comment. Lobbying is not a high > > > > priority for SCNA at present. The thing that Eugene did, as far as > > > > I can see, is that it needed money and decided to do a fee for > > > > service. They didn't read the small print though. Any fee for > > > > service is fine if the service is educational, but as a connection > > > > to the Internet, it is deemed by the IRS to not be educational. > > > > They currently agree that the service is educational, but the > > > > connection to the internet is offered by 100s of other vendors > > > > which are commercial. Therefore this breaks the 501(c)3 agreement > > > > with the IRS. Plus it brings us back to the first point - we are a > > > > connection to a "service" which is educational and on the Internet. > > > > > > > > Personally, if I thought a for-profit with low cost for service > > > > would make a profit, I would be doing that rather than working for > > > > SCN as a volunteer CEO. Plus I think I know where I could have > > > > gotten a few "staff" that might wish to work for me rather than > > > > volunteering. So if running a cheap access ISP were profitable, > > > > then where are they? They came and most went with the dot.coms. > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > > > > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org > > > > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > > > > (425) 653 7353 http://www.scn.org/ > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: emailer1 > > > > To: Marilyn Sheck ; scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > > > > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 1:42 AM > > > > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > > > > > > > > > > > > The key part of Steve Guest's message is the following: > > > > ____________________ > > > > "I do not see SCN being able to commit > > > > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > > > > > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is > > > > initialy an > > > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource for > > > > Seattle. > > > > We were never in the free ISP business." > > > > _____________________ > > > > > > > > The above contains a Catch 22 element. (1) We do not have the > > > > funds and staff to support a full ISP (including standard graphical > > > > functions); and (2) we will continue to offer a very limited type > > > > of service and so we will NEVER attract or bring in the funds to > > > > support such a full ISP service. > > > > > > > > Rather than mere speculation, it will be necessary to get a > > > > proper accounting (indepent) to determine > > > > 1. How much funding it would take to operate an independent, > > > > proper ISP. (Staff and hardware) > > > > 2. How many paying subscribers it would take (at $10/month) to > > > > support such an ISP service. (This price would under cut almost > > > > all other services.) > > > > 3. How many low-income subscriptions could be offered for little > > > > or no cost under this full ISP scenario. > > > > > > > > If the answers to 1 and 2 are positive (i.e., it would be doable > > > > to get enough subscribers to fully fund all aspects of a complete > > > > ISP service), THEN it would be appropriate to discuss abandoning > > > > the tax-free status and switch to a for-profit service. > > > > > > > > By the way, the tax-free status comes at a cost: SCNA cannot > > > > lobby. SCNA, like Eugene was, is severely limited by the IRS as to > > > > what low-income services it can offer and as to what philosophical > > > > stance it can follow actively. > > > > > > > > The library connection also has similar costs. If SCNA actually > > > > did become active (read "controversial"), the library could no > > > > longer provide free connection. As Steve pointed out, "(SCN)A is > > > > initialy an email and maillist site." The design of the > > > > organization is limited by that earlier small mission. Keeping the > > > > library "sponsorship" and the subsequent tax-free status prevent > > > > SCNA from being a desireable ISP and from being an effective > > > > community influence. > > > > > > > > Until an independent accounting can answer 1, 2, & 3, there is no > > > > way to describe SCNA's potential or future. It can only continue > > > > to drift. > > > > > > > > P.S. > > > > > > > > About the statement: "We were never in the free ISP business." > > > > > > > > Actually, that is exactly what we used to tell everyone -- that > > > > we WERE a free ISP. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Marilyn Sheck > > > > To: scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > > > > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > > > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 1:53 PM > > > > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times > > > > > > > > > > > > Well said, Steve. And, YES, you are right about the library > > > > not being able > > > > to sustain your internet feed if your traffic increased. We > > > > are already having > > > > trouble with our bandwidth just with SCN in its present form > > > > combined with > > > > our own services. We would not be able to use public funds, > > > > which is what > > > > we pay for the Internet connection with, to support SCN's > > > > connection if it > > > > is more than a small fraction of our overall bandwidth usage. > > > > > > > > >>> steveg at scn.org 12/21/01 01:08PM >>> > > > > Hi > > > > Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the other > > > > hand, this is > > > > basic command style access and not FREE Internet access. I > > > > agree it would > > > > be great to offer such services, but we have address some > > > > important issues > > > > first. > > > > > > > > Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet access. > > > > > > > > 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to the > > > > Internet via > > > > our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to the > > > > Internet, then > > > > the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably. This would > > > > be > > > > followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed, because > > > > currently I > > > > have been led to believe that the Library would not be able to > > > > justify the > > > > cost of the service. This would mean that we would have to > > > > provide our > > > > own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need then to be > > > > in the > > > > Library because we are then simply taking up their limited > > > > space. So if > > > > this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the phone > > > > lines, the > > > > Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. We do > > > > not have the > > > > budget for this and we would be out of funds within months or > > > > weeks. > > > > > > > > 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as indicated > > > > that > > > > Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of worms. > > > > First lets > > > > point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a whole > > > > different set of > > > > rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are already > > > > looking at > > > > FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on the > > > > educational value > > > > of the service. As soon as we set up a competing service with > > > > a > > > > commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service - in an > > > > area which > > > > is not directly education then we fall outside the charitable > > > > status. > > > > Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened or is > > > > happening to > > > > Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company to sell > > > > their fee > > > > for service IP connections and break away from the educational > > > > section. > > > > Again something that would put us at odds with the Library and > > > > its > > > > donation to us. > > > > > > > > The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten to SCN, > > > > but we are > > > > in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal. > > > > > > > > Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this, understand the > > > > Library's > > > > view, have the funds and staff to support this and the software > > > > to ensure > > > > that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN being able > > > > to commit > > > > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > > > > > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It is > > > > initialy an > > > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web resource > > > > for Seattle. > > > > We were never in the free ISP business. > > > > > > > > I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say we > > > > cannot discuss > > > > these points, but we need to ensure that we can support our > > > > current > > > > services before we branch into others. > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > > > > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org > > > > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > > > > (425) 653 7353 > > > > http://www.scn.org/ > > > > > > > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > > > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. Victoria > > > > freenet > > > > > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is a great > > > > deal. > > > > > > > > > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail or some > > > > other > > > > > web-based service to check their mail, after they have surfed > > > > the net > > > > > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it hard to go > > > > to a > > > > > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. > > > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New Lease on > > > > Life" is > > > > > > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadline > > s%2Dtechnology > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * > > > > * * * * > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > > > > web at: > > > > > > ==== > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ > > > > * * * * > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * > > > > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' > > > > internal > > > > communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have > > > > questions > > > > about this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Wed Jan 9 02:29:37 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 02:29:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perhaps I should make it very clear that I have no objection if any one wants to spend their own time in discussions of no point or merit. What I do object to is people (assuming that the faceless 'emailer1' is some kind of people) asking _other_ people to waste their time to no avail. And I object most strongly when people who should know better use "simple" requests for information as a ploy to interfere with decisions they simply don't like. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 08:07:54 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 08:07:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020109160754.43132.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> JJ, Everything is simple and everything can be nailed down to two conditions: 1. A problem. 2. A solution. That seems pretty simple to me! Just kidding, Patrick --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > Perhaps I should make it very clear that I have no objection if any > one > wants to spend their own time in discussions of no point or merit. > > > What I do object to is people (assuming that the faceless > 'emailer1' is > some kind of people) asking _other_ people to waste their time to > no > avail. > > And I object most strongly when people who should know better use > "simple" > requests for information as a ploy to interfere with decisions they > simply > don't like. > > === JJ > ============================================================= > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 08:14:24 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 08:14:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <000801c198f4$b07e6480$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: <20020109161424.71650.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Dear "emailer1", It's nice to know who we are talking to. By 'we' I mean anyone. It's nice to place a face or a name to a mail or letter or phone message. If you feel that someone is mean or unkind, the what is your anonymity to protect you from getting flamed? Either way you are going to get it. As email goes, if you mail flame-inducing mail, which could be the most innocent message, you should know better to put your Teflon jumpsuit on and take the heat. Not that anyone is out to get you for your messages, but that is the fact of life with email. Anyway, it's nice to know a person's name. It's a basic common courtesy that human beings expect. Patrick --- emailer1 wrote: > There are some good thoughts floating around about SCN options. > This is a > discussion that should continue. However, a quick item first. > > This JJ and Irene are asking for my name. Steve Guest sent me a > very polite > private inquiry about the same thing. I politely answered that I > preferred > anonymity, for several reasons. One of the reasons is exemplified > by the > note below; this JJ can be pretty mean to people. However, the > main point > is that discussion should focus on the issues, not on the sender. > > Back to the discussion. > > Doug suggested a task force to look at the issue of a different ISP > structure. I concur. I earlier suggested an assessment of the > costs of a > self-supporting ISP structure. I think it would have to be an > independent > assessment. However, it would be useful if Steve did lay out the > specifics > of the estimate he said he did, as a starting point. If presented > as an > estimate, it would not be vulnerable to antagonism, as JJ fears. > Al also > opined that self funding would be unsuccessful. Many share this > opinion, > but these guesses are not a good basis for decision-making. > > It was just reported that a network in Snohomish County bit the > dust. > However, it was not clear to me that the reasons were applicable to > SCNA's > situation. > > Does anyone have an idea as to how SCNA could get an objective > assessment of > the cost of self funding? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J. Johnson > To: emailer1 > Cc: patrick ; Steve Guest > ; > ; > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 11:57 PM > Subject: Re: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles > Times > > > > "A simple e-mail would suffice"?! Hah! You've already gotten the > "simple" > > e-mail. And if Steve was to publish a worksheet he'd want to > check it (so > > someone doesn't pillory him for an error), maybe even update it, > and all > > that would take TIME HE DOESN'T HAVE! Which I know, because > there are > > some pretty critical items he hasn't been able to get to yet. > And I'd > > rather he wasn't distracted. (Steve: don't do it!) > > > > This whole discussion of setting up some kind of chargeable > service is > > fools dream, because there are quite sufficient reasons why it > isn't going > > to happen any time soon. And it's a waste of everyone's time, > because the > > reasons have been explained. If 'emailer1' (whoever he is) > thinks > > differently, he is quite free to set up his own service. > > > > === JJ > ============================================================= > > > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, emailer1 wrote: > > > > > Steve, > > > > > > This was a very useful response. You were specific enough to > move the > > > discussion forward. > > > > > > Could you publish your worksheet that you used to cost out the > $5-10 > million > > > figure. (How much for staff, for hardware, for connectivity, > etc.) A > > > simple e-mail would suffice. > > > > > > Thanks in advance. This will add a lot of clarity to the > discussion. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: patrick > > > To: Steve Guest ; ; > Marilyn > Sheck > > > ; > > > Cc: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 1:51 AM > > > Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles > Times > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the computer age has created a huge disparity > between > > > > the haves and have-nots. The haves having computers and > internet and > > > > the havenots having neither. > > > > > > > > A computer is fairly easy to come by now, but affordable > internet > > > > access is not. > > > > > > > > Kids are often assigned homework which includes searching the > > > > internet for answers. Guess who gets screwed? > > > > > > > > And just being in on the loop of things, the internet is > becoming as > > > > 'necessary' as the phone. Especially for kids. Economic > disparity > > > > leads to social disparity. And less opportunities for those > with > > > > disparity. > > > > > > > > I would hope that there is someone out there addressing this > to the > > > > government, Congress, the IRS. > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > --- Steve Guest wrote: > > > > > Well we could debate this for months. Let me clear up a > few things > > > > > first: > > > > > 1) We are technically an ISP, but since Microsoft started > putting > > > > > the connect to the internet icon on its desk top the idea > of what > > > > > is an ISP has changed. We are an ISP which does not offer > direct > > > > > connection to the Internet, only to a server on the > Internet. We > > > > > were and still are a founding member of Washington > Association of > > > > > Internet Service Providers (WAISP) which is a lobbying > group. But > > > > > due to the failure of most of the local ISPs to either > survive or > > > > > not get eaten by the national big fish, WAISP could soon > die from a > > > > > lack of membership. So it depends on your definition of an > ISP. > > > > > 2) As far as the costs for an ISP - these are well know > and we > > > > > have investigated them. If we were to take NWNexos for > example, it > > > > > had a budget of several millions when WindStar bought it > and still > > > > > it failed to be profitable. There are way too many factors > to make > > > > > this a simple calculation. We would also change our > profile and > > > > > start to impact others like wolfnet, drizzle and eskimo. > There are > > > > > several ISPs open to offers in the area, go look at their > books if > > > > > you think this is a viable proposition. From my costings, > I worked > > > > > out that we would need about $5-10 Million a year for SCN's > > > > > operations and service to be "professional", plus a major > culture > > > > > shift. Which is way too many $10 customers. > > > > > 3) I am confused by the 501(c)3 comment. Lobbying is not a > high > > > > > priority for SCNA at present. The thing that Eugene did, > as far as > > > > > I can see, is that it needed money and decided to do a fee > for > > > > > service. They didn't read the small print though. Any fee > for > > > > > service is fine if the service is educational, but as a > connection > > > > > to the Internet, it is deemed by the IRS to not be > educational. > > > > > They currently agree that the service is educational, but > the > > > > > connection to the internet is offered by 100s of other > vendors > > > > > which are commercial. Therefore this breaks the 501(c)3 > agreement > > > > > with the IRS. Plus it brings us back to the first point - > we are a > > > > > connection to a "service" which is educational and on the > Internet. > > > > > > > > > > Personally, if I thought a for-profit with low cost for > service > > > > > would make a profit, I would be doing that rather than > working for > > > > > SCN as a volunteer CEO. Plus I think I know where I could > have > > > > > gotten a few "staff" that might wish to work for me rather > than > > > > > volunteering. So if running a cheap access ISP were > profitable, > > > > > then where are they? They came and most went with the > dot.coms. > > > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > > > > > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org > steve at groupworks.org > > > > > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > > > > > (425) 653 7353 > http://www.scn.org/ > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: emailer1 > > > > > To: Marilyn Sheck ; scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > > > > > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 1:42 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles > Times > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The key part of Steve Guest's message is the following: > > > > > ____________________ > > > > > "I do not see SCN being able to commit > > > > > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > > > > > > > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It > is > > > > > initialy an > > > > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web > resource for > > > > > Seattle. > > > > > We were never in the free ISP business." > > > > > _____________________ > > > > > > > > > > The above contains a Catch 22 element. (1) We do not > have the > > > > > funds and staff to support a full ISP (including standard > graphical > > > > > functions); and (2) we will continue to offer a very > limited type > > > > > of service and so we will NEVER attract or bring in the > funds to > > > > > support such a full ISP service. > > > > > > > > > > Rather than mere speculation, it will be necessary to get > a > > > > > proper accounting (indepent) to determine > > > > > 1. How much funding it would take to operate an > independent, > > > > > proper ISP. (Staff and hardware) > > > > > 2. How many paying subscribers it would take (at > $10/month) to > > > > > support such an ISP service. (This price would under cut > almost > > > > > all other services.) > > > > > 3. How many low-income subscriptions could be offered > for little > > > > > or no cost under this full ISP scenario. > > > > > > > > > > If the answers to 1 and 2 are positive (i.e., it would be > doable > > > > > to get enough subscribers to fully fund all aspects of a > complete > > > > > ISP service), THEN it would be appropriate to discuss > abandoning > > > > > the tax-free status and switch to a for-profit service. > > > > > > > > > > By the way, the tax-free status comes at a cost: SCNA > cannot > > > > > lobby. SCNA, like Eugene was, is severely limited by the > IRS as to > > > > > what low-income services it can offer and as to what > philosophical > > > > > stance it can follow actively. > > > > > > > > > > The library connection also has similar costs. If SCNA > actually > > > > > did become active (read "controversial"), the library could > no > > > > > longer provide free connection. As Steve pointed out, > "(SCN)A is > > > > > initialy an email and maillist site." The design of the > > > > > organization is limited by that earlier small mission. > Keeping the > > > > > library "sponsorship" and the subsequent tax-free status > prevent > > > > > SCNA from being a desireable ISP and from being an > effective > > > > > community influence. > > > > > > > > > > Until an independent accounting can answer 1, 2, & 3, > there is no > > > > > way to describe SCNA's potential or future. It can only > continue > > > > > to drift. > > > > > > > > > > P.S. > > > > > > > > > > About the statement: "We were never in the free ISP > business." > > > > > > > > > > Actually, that is exactly what we used to tell everyone > -- that > > > > > we WERE a free ISP. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Marilyn Sheck > > > > > To: scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > > > > > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 1:53 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles > Times > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well said, Steve. And, YES, you are right about the > library > > > > > not being able > > > > > to sustain your internet feed if your traffic > increased. We > > > > > are already having > > > > > trouble with our bandwidth just with SCN in its present > form > > > > > combined with > > > > > our own services. We would not be able to use public > funds, > > > > > which is what > > > > > we pay for the Internet connection with, to support > SCN's > > > > > connection if it > > > > > is more than a small fraction of our overall bandwidth > usage. > > > > > > > > > > >>> steveg at scn.org 12/21/01 01:08PM >>> > > > > > Hi > > > > > Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the > other > > > > > hand, this is > > > > > basic command style access and not FREE Internet > access. I > > > > > agree it would > > > > > be great to offer such services, but we have address > some > > > > > important issues > > > > > first. > > > > > > > > > > Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet > access. > > > > > > > > > > 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to > the > > > > > Internet via > > > > > our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to > the > > > > > Internet, then > > > > > the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably. > This would > > > > > be > > > > > followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed, > because > > > > > currently I > > > > > have been led to believe that the Library would not be > able to > > > > > justify the > > > > > cost of the service. This would mean that we would > have to > > > > > provide our > > > > > own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need > then to be > > > > > in the > > > > > Library because we are then simply taking up their > limited > > > > > space. So if > > > > > this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the > phone > > > > > lines, the > > > > > Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. > We do > > > > > not have the > > > > > budget for this and we would be out of funds within > months or > > > > > weeks. > > > > > > > > > > 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as > indicated > > > > > that > > > > > Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of > worms. > > > > > First lets > > > > > point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a > whole > > > > > different set of > > > > > rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are > already > > > > > looking at > > > > > FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on > the > > > > > educational value > > > > > of the service. As soon as we set up a competing > service with > > > > > a > > > > > commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service > - in an > > > > > area which > > > > > is not directly education then we fall outside the > charitable > > > > > status. > > > > > Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened > or is > > > > > happening to > > > > > Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company > to sell > > > > > their fee > > > > > for service IP connections and break away from the > educational > > > > > section. > > > > > Again something that would put us at odds with the > Library and > > > > > its > > > > > donation to us. > > > > > > > > > > The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten > to SCN, > > > > > but we are > > > > > in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal. > > > > > > > > > > Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this, > understand the > > > > > Library's > > > > > view, have the funds and staff to support this and the > software > > > > > to ensure > > > > > that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN > being able > > > > > to commit > > > > > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > > > > > > > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It > is > > > > > initialy an > > > > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web > resource > > > > > for Seattle. > > > > > We were never in the free ISP business. > > > > > > > > > > I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say > we > > > > > cannot discuss > > > > > these points, but we need to ensure that we can support > our > > > > > current > > > > > services before we branch into others. > > > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > > > > > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org > steve at groupworks.org > > > > > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > > > > > (425) 653 7353 > > > > > http://www.scn.org/ > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. > Victoria > > > > > freenet > > > > > > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is > a great > > > > > deal. > > > > > > > > > > > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail > or some > > > > > other > > > > > > web-based service to check their mail, after they > have surfed > > > > > the net > > > > > > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it > hard to go > > > > > to a > > > > > > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New > Lease on > > > > > Life" is > > > > > > > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadline > > > s%2Dtechnology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * > * * * * > > > > > * * * * > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message > to: > > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the > message, type: > > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also > available on the > > > > > web at: > > > > > > > ==== > > > > > > > * * * * * * * > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ > > > > > * * * * > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > > > > * * * * * > > > > > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board > members' > > > > > internal > > > > > communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you > have > > > > > questions > > > > > about this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * > * * * * * > * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > web at: > ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * > * * * * * > * > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today > > > Only $9.95 per month! > > > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today > Only $9.95 per month! > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 08:18:24 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 08:18:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN's situation Re: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <000801c198f4$b07e6480$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: <20020109161824.45142.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Dear "emailer1", I don't speak for the board or anyone but myself, but SCN is doing just fine. There are many, many, many things that need to be done before SCN could even consider taking a huge step in another direction. So, please be patient and appreciate the volunteers like JJ who are working hard to make SCN better. A lot has been done recently and JJ has been doing a great job. I've posted in the past about what has been going on behind the scenes, but I could repost another general synopsis. Patrick --- emailer1 wrote: > There are some good thoughts floating around about SCN options. > This is a > discussion that should continue. However, a quick item first. > > This JJ and Irene are asking for my name. Steve Guest sent me a > very polite > private inquiry about the same thing. I politely answered that I > preferred > anonymity, for several reasons. One of the reasons is exemplified > by the > note below; this JJ can be pretty mean to people. However, the > main point > is that discussion should focus on the issues, not on the sender. > > Back to the discussion. > > Doug suggested a task force to look at the issue of a different ISP > structure. I concur. I earlier suggested an assessment of the > costs of a > self-supporting ISP structure. I think it would have to be an > independent > assessment. However, it would be useful if Steve did lay out the > specifics > of the estimate he said he did, as a starting point. If presented > as an > estimate, it would not be vulnerable to antagonism, as JJ fears. > Al also > opined that self funding would be unsuccessful. Many share this > opinion, > but these guesses are not a good basis for decision-making. > > It was just reported that a network in Snohomish County bit the > dust. > However, it was not clear to me that the reasons were applicable to > SCNA's > situation. > > Does anyone have an idea as to how SCNA could get an objective > assessment of > the cost of self funding? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J. Johnson > To: emailer1 > Cc: patrick ; Steve Guest > ; > ; > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 11:57 PM > Subject: Re: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles > Times > > > > "A simple e-mail would suffice"?! Hah! You've already gotten the > "simple" > > e-mail. And if Steve was to publish a worksheet he'd want to > check it (so > > someone doesn't pillory him for an error), maybe even update it, > and all > > that would take TIME HE DOESN'T HAVE! Which I know, because > there are > > some pretty critical items he hasn't been able to get to yet. > And I'd > > rather he wasn't distracted. (Steve: don't do it!) > > > > This whole discussion of setting up some kind of chargeable > service is > > fools dream, because there are quite sufficient reasons why it > isn't going > > to happen any time soon. And it's a waste of everyone's time, > because the > > reasons have been explained. If 'emailer1' (whoever he is) > thinks > > differently, he is quite free to set up his own service. > > > > === JJ > ============================================================= > > > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, emailer1 wrote: > > > > > Steve, > > > > > > This was a very useful response. You were specific enough to > move the > > > discussion forward. > > > > > > Could you publish your worksheet that you used to cost out the > $5-10 > million > > > figure. (How much for staff, for hardware, for connectivity, > etc.) A > > > simple e-mail would suffice. > > > > > > Thanks in advance. This will add a lot of clarity to the > discussion. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: patrick > > > To: Steve Guest ; ; > Marilyn > Sheck > > > ; > > > Cc: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 1:51 AM > > > Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles > Times > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the computer age has created a huge disparity > between > > > > the haves and have-nots. The haves having computers and > internet and > > > > the havenots having neither. > > > > > > > > A computer is fairly easy to come by now, but affordable > internet > > > > access is not. > > > > > > > > Kids are often assigned homework which includes searching the > > > > internet for answers. Guess who gets screwed? > > > > > > > > And just being in on the loop of things, the internet is > becoming as > > > > 'necessary' as the phone. Especially for kids. Economic > disparity > > > > leads to social disparity. And less opportunities for those > with > > > > disparity. > > > > > > > > I would hope that there is someone out there addressing this > to the > > > > government, Congress, the IRS. > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > --- Steve Guest wrote: > > > > > Well we could debate this for months. Let me clear up a > few things > > > > > first: > > > > > 1) We are technically an ISP, but since Microsoft started > putting > > > > > the connect to the internet icon on its desk top the idea > of what > > > > > is an ISP has changed. We are an ISP which does not offer > direct > > > > > connection to the Internet, only to a server on the > Internet. We > > > > > were and still are a founding member of Washington > Association of > > > > > Internet Service Providers (WAISP) which is a lobbying > group. But > > > > > due to the failure of most of the local ISPs to either > survive or > > > > > not get eaten by the national big fish, WAISP could soon > die from a > > > > > lack of membership. So it depends on your definition of an > ISP. > > > > > 2) As far as the costs for an ISP - these are well know > and we > > > > > have investigated them. If we were to take NWNexos for > example, it > > > > > had a budget of several millions when WindStar bought it > and still > > > > > it failed to be profitable. There are way too many factors > to make > > > > > this a simple calculation. We would also change our > profile and > > > > > start to impact others like wolfnet, drizzle and eskimo. > There are > > > > > several ISPs open to offers in the area, go look at their > books if > > > > > you think this is a viable proposition. From my costings, > I worked > > > > > out that we would need about $5-10 Million a year for SCN's > > > > > operations and service to be "professional", plus a major > culture > > > > > shift. Which is way too many $10 customers. > > > > > 3) I am confused by the 501(c)3 comment. Lobbying is not a > high > > > > > priority for SCNA at present. The thing that Eugene did, > as far as > > > > > I can see, is that it needed money and decided to do a fee > for > > > > > service. They didn't read the small print though. Any fee > for > > > > > service is fine if the service is educational, but as a > connection > > > > > to the Internet, it is deemed by the IRS to not be > educational. > > > > > They currently agree that the service is educational, but > the > > > > > connection to the internet is offered by 100s of other > vendors > > > > > which are commercial. Therefore this breaks the 501(c)3 > agreement > > > > > with the IRS. Plus it brings us back to the first point - > we are a > > > > > connection to a "service" which is educational and on the > Internet. > > > > > > > > > > Personally, if I thought a for-profit with low cost for > service > > > > > would make a profit, I would be doing that rather than > working for > > > > > SCN as a volunteer CEO. Plus I think I know where I could > have > > > > > gotten a few "staff" that might wish to work for me rather > than > > > > > volunteering. So if running a cheap access ISP were > profitable, > > > > > then where are they? They came and most went with the > dot.coms. > > > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > > > > > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org > steve at groupworks.org > > > > > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > > > > > (425) 653 7353 > http://www.scn.org/ > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: emailer1 > > > > > To: Marilyn Sheck ; scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > > > > > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 1:42 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles > Times > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The key part of Steve Guest's message is the following: > > > > > ____________________ > > > > > "I do not see SCN being able to commit > > > > > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > > > > > > > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It > is > > > > > initialy an > > > > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web > resource for > > > > > Seattle. > > > > > We were never in the free ISP business." > > > > > _____________________ > > > > > > > > > > The above contains a Catch 22 element. (1) We do not > have the > > > > > funds and staff to support a full ISP (including standard > graphical > > > > > functions); and (2) we will continue to offer a very > limited type > > > > > of service and so we will NEVER attract or bring in the > funds to > > > > > support such a full ISP service. > > > > > > > > > > Rather than mere speculation, it will be necessary to get > a > > > > > proper accounting (indepent) to determine > > > > > 1. How much funding it would take to operate an > independent, > > > > > proper ISP. (Staff and hardware) > > > > > 2. How many paying subscribers it would take (at > $10/month) to > > > > > support such an ISP service. (This price would under cut > almost > > > > > all other services.) > > > > > 3. How many low-income subscriptions could be offered > for little > > > > > or no cost under this full ISP scenario. > > > > > > > > > > If the answers to 1 and 2 are positive (i.e., it would be > doable > > > > > to get enough subscribers to fully fund all aspects of a > complete > > > > > ISP service), THEN it would be appropriate to discuss > abandoning > > > > > the tax-free status and switch to a for-profit service. > > > > > > > > > > By the way, the tax-free status comes at a cost: SCNA > cannot > > > > > lobby. SCNA, like Eugene was, is severely limited by the > IRS as to > > > > > what low-income services it can offer and as to what > philosophical > > > > > stance it can follow actively. > > > > > > > > > > The library connection also has similar costs. If SCNA > actually > > > > > did become active (read "controversial"), the library could > no > > > > > longer provide free connection. As Steve pointed out, > "(SCN)A is > > > > > initialy an email and maillist site." The design of the > > > > > organization is limited by that earlier small mission. > Keeping the > > > > > library "sponsorship" and the subsequent tax-free status > prevent > > > > > SCNA from being a desireable ISP and from being an > effective > > > > > community influence. > > > > > > > > > > Until an independent accounting can answer 1, 2, & 3, > there is no > > > > > way to describe SCNA's potential or future. It can only > continue > > > > > to drift. > > > > > > > > > > P.S. > > > > > > > > > > About the statement: "We were never in the free ISP > business." > > > > > > > > > > Actually, that is exactly what we used to tell everyone > -- that > > > > > we WERE a free ISP. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Marilyn Sheck > > > > > To: scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > > > > > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 1:53 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles > Times > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well said, Steve. And, YES, you are right about the > library > > > > > not being able > > > > > to sustain your internet feed if your traffic > increased. We > > > > > are already having > > > > > trouble with our bandwidth just with SCN in its present > form > > > > > combined with > > > > > our own services. We would not be able to use public > funds, > > > > > which is what > > > > > we pay for the Internet connection with, to support > SCN's > > > > > connection if it > > > > > is more than a small fraction of our overall bandwidth > usage. > > > > > > > > > > >>> steveg at scn.org 12/21/01 01:08PM >>> > > > > > Hi > > > > > Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the > other > > > > > hand, this is > > > > > basic command style access and not FREE Internet > access. I > > > > > agree it would > > > > > be great to offer such services, but we have address > some > > > > > important issues > > > > > first. > > > > > > > > > > Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet > access. > > > > > > > > > > 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to > the > > > > > Internet via > > > > > our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to > the > > > > > Internet, then > > > > > the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably. > This would > > > > > be > > > > > followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed, > because > > > > > currently I > > > > > have been led to believe that the Library would not be > able to > > > > > justify the > > > > > cost of the service. This would mean that we would > have to > > > > > provide our > > > > > own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need > then to be > > > > > in the > > > > > Library because we are then simply taking up their > limited > > > > > space. So if > > > > > this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the > phone > > > > > lines, the > > > > > Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. > We do > > > > > not have the > > > > > budget for this and we would be out of funds within > months or > > > > > weeks. > > > > > > > > > > 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as > indicated > > > > > that > > > > > Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of > worms. > > > > > First lets > > > > > point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a > whole > > > > > different set of > > > > > rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are > already > > > > > looking at > > > > > FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on > the > > > > > educational value > > > > > of the service. As soon as we set up a competing > service with > > > > > a > > > > > commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service > - in an > > > > > area which > > > > > is not directly education then we fall outside the > charitable > > > > > status. > > > > > Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened > or is > > > > > happening to > > > > > Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company > to sell > > > > > their fee > > > > > for service IP connections and break away from the > educational > > > > > section. > > > > > Again something that would put us at odds with the > Library and > > > > > its > > > > > donation to us. > > > > > > > > > > The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten > to SCN, > > > > > but we are > > > > > in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal. > > > > > > > > > > Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this, > understand the > > > > > Library's > > > > > view, have the funds and staff to support this and the > software > > > > > to ensure > > > > > that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN > being able > > > > > to commit > > > > > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > > > > > > > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It > is > > > > > initialy an > > > > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web > resource > > > > > for Seattle. > > > > > We were never in the free ISP business. > > > > > > > > > > I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say > we > > > > > cannot discuss > > > > > these points, but we need to ensure that we can support > our > > > > > current > > > > > services before we branch into others. > > > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > > > > > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org > steve at groupworks.org > > > > > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > > > > > (425) 653 7353 > > > > > http://www.scn.org/ > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. > Victoria > > > > > freenet > > > > > > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is > a great > > > > > deal. > > > > > > > > > > > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail > or some > > > > > other > > > > > > web-based service to check their mail, after they > have surfed > > > > > the net > > > > > > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it > hard to go > > > > > to a > > > > > > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New > Lease on > > > > > Life" is > > > > > > > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadline > > > s%2Dtechnology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * > * * * * > > > > > * * * * > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message > to: > > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the > message, type: > > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also > available on the > > > > > web at: > > > > > > > ==== > > > > > > > * * * * * * * > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ > > > > > * * * * > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > > > > * * * * * > > > > > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board > members' > > > > > internal > > > > > communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you > have > > > > > questions > > > > > about this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * > * * * * * > * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > web at: > ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * > * * * * * > * > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today > > > Only $9.95 per month! > > > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today > Only $9.95 per month! > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Wed Jan 9 09:00:14 2002 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:00:14 -0800 Subject: SCN: Computer donations Message-ID: <3C3C069E.22039.230DC70@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ==================== Charities Say No to Obsolete Crap (Jenn Shreve, Wired Digital)---Tucked into corners and collecting dust in the closets of nonprofits worldwide, you'll find them: stacks of ancient computers, cracked monitors, tangled cords and drives without floppies. The hardware comes from well-meaning donors who hope their castoffs can do others some good. But while secondhand technology is indeed a blessing for some struggling agencies, for most it's quickly becoming a costly curse. Although most charities still welcome the gift of hardware, they are becoming more particular about what they will and won't accept. They are evaluating their needs and creating technology plans first, then looking over donations to find the gift that best meets their needs and won’t cost them a small fortune in repairs, upgrades and software licenses. In the United States alone, 53 million desktop computers are expected to become obsolete, according to an oft-cited 1999 report by the National Safety Council. Currently, 80 percent of discarded computers head straight to landfill. A few will make their way to recycling and refurbishing centers. Others are donated to charities. In three years, computers donated to Goodwill Industries have spiked from 50,000 per year to 150,000. Those that can't be sold in stores or used in the company's technology centers have to be disposed of, at a cost to the organization. "Every dollar we spend on disposing of unusable donations is a dollar we don't have to spend on our career and other support services," said Christine Nyirjesy Bragale, a spokeswoman for Goodwill Industries International. "It's not uncommon that a nonprofit gets a donation, finds out that the computer is not going to work for them, then they're stuck with the cost of recycling the computer. It can end up hurting them," said Joan Fanning, executive director of NPower, which provides low-cost, onsite IT support and training to nonprofits. Law firms and banks often strip their hard drives bare before donating them, taking out the OS in the process. "For the nonprofit, the amount of money they can actually make from a computer is drastically impacted if the computer doesn't have an operating system. Then it's a fancy doorstop," says Cathy MacCaul, communications manager of Microsoft's Community Affairs program, which manages the software giant's corporate philanthropy programs. If the equipment is up to date (defined by most organizations as Pentium-level or higher) and comes with a licensed operating system and peripherals such as monitor, keyboard and mouse, then the agency might be able to sell it or put it to work. Alas, this is rarely the case -- and an old OS isn't much better than none at all, because it won't run current software. Even nonprofits in developing nations are turning away donated computers. Bill Threlkeld, administrator of the Washington, D.C., nonprofit Native Lands, used to funnel donated computers to offices of nonprofits in the poor countries that his organization advocates on behalf of. But in recent years, he's found they're not interested. "Those organizations have to be able to compete pretty much like everybody else is, at least with being able to dial up, have an Internet connection, send documents in the latest Word program or other software. They have to have a fairly up-to-date computer to do that. No one, as far as I know, is interested in getting secondhand computers," Threlkeld said. If new software needs to be bought, then that's yet another expense, one that frustrates Cyan Callihan, CTO of the Oakland, California, nonprofit WEAP (The Women's Economic Agenda Project). "Sometimes I'm up against the wall explaining that we can't pay $1,000 a license for software we need," Callihan said. One option, which Goodwill employs, is relying on application service providers (ASPs) rather than buying licenses to software outright. Figuring out what to do with donated equipment is one piece in the larger puzzle of bringing nonprofits into the technological era. Charities and grassroots organizations were notable as early adopters of the Internet. Now that they're using computers for everything from managing donor databases to job training and internal operations, their technology costs have billowed out of control. For smaller agencies, especially, the burden of maintaining networks and staying free of viruses can be a huge burden. Native Lands, with four full-time employees, recently began spending $600 a month to have someone fix their network, protect them from viruses, and provide other key IT services for two hours every week. Callihan said that the rates for Telcom support -- anywhere from $100 to $200 an hour -- are another cost that's difficult to keep up with. Nonprofit technology organizations such as NPower and Compumentor are expanding to meet growing demand for affordable software, consulting and related costs in the sector. Numerous technology companies -- including 3Com, Compaq, HP and IBM -- have in-house programs aimed at making technology more affordable to the nonprofit sector. In late December, Compumentor teamed up with Microsoft to launch a public awareness campaign to educate consumers and nonprofits about the proper way to donate a used computer. Tom Dawson, a program manager at Compumentor, advises the nonprofits he works with to develop technology plans, assess their needs regularly, and then decide whether they are best served accepting donations or buying new equipment. "Nonprofits are going to have to be a bit more sophisticated in their use of technology. A few years back, groups would have taken donations without flinching," Dawson explains. "That's the nature of the sector, to accept gifts and do what you can with that." Copyright 2001 Lycos, Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 09:47:06 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:47:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <000801c198f4$b07e6480$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: <20020109174706.52053.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Dear "emailer1", I don't think the discussion involves 'options'. It's simply discussion and food for thought when it comes to possible futures for SCN. Simply discussion. Options implies more than discussion. Open public discussion is only discussion. Patrick --- emailer1 wrote: > There are some good thoughts floating around about SCN options. > This is a > discussion that should continue. However, a quick item first. > > This JJ and Irene are asking for my name. Steve Guest sent me a > very polite > private inquiry about the same thing. I politely answered that I > preferred > anonymity, for several reasons. One of the reasons is exemplified > by the > note below; this JJ can be pretty mean to people. However, the > main point > is that discussion should focus on the issues, not on the sender. > > Back to the discussion. > > Doug suggested a task force to look at the issue of a different ISP > structure. I concur. I earlier suggested an assessment of the > costs of a > self-supporting ISP structure. I think it would have to be an > independent > assessment. However, it would be useful if Steve did lay out the > specifics > of the estimate he said he did, as a starting point. If presented > as an > estimate, it would not be vulnerable to antagonism, as JJ fears. > Al also > opined that self funding would be unsuccessful. Many share this > opinion, > but these guesses are not a good basis for decision-making. > > It was just reported that a network in Snohomish County bit the > dust. > However, it was not clear to me that the reasons were applicable to > SCNA's > situation. > > Does anyone have an idea as to how SCNA could get an objective > assessment of > the cost of self funding? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J. Johnson > To: emailer1 > Cc: patrick ; Steve Guest > ; > ; > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 11:57 PM > Subject: Re: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles > Times > > > > "A simple e-mail would suffice"?! Hah! You've already gotten the > "simple" > > e-mail. And if Steve was to publish a worksheet he'd want to > check it (so > > someone doesn't pillory him for an error), maybe even update it, > and all > > that would take TIME HE DOESN'T HAVE! Which I know, because > there are > > some pretty critical items he hasn't been able to get to yet. > And I'd > > rather he wasn't distracted. (Steve: don't do it!) > > > > This whole discussion of setting up some kind of chargeable > service is > > fools dream, because there are quite sufficient reasons why it > isn't going > > to happen any time soon. And it's a waste of everyone's time, > because the > > reasons have been explained. If 'emailer1' (whoever he is) > thinks > > differently, he is quite free to set up his own service. > > > > === JJ > ============================================================= > > > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, emailer1 wrote: > > > > > Steve, > > > > > > This was a very useful response. You were specific enough to > move the > > > discussion forward. > > > > > > Could you publish your worksheet that you used to cost out the > $5-10 > million > > > figure. (How much for staff, for hardware, for connectivity, > etc.) A > > > simple e-mail would suffice. > > > > > > Thanks in advance. This will add a lot of clarity to the > discussion. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: patrick > > > To: Steve Guest ; ; > Marilyn > Sheck > > > ; > > > Cc: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 1:51 AM > > > Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles > Times > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the computer age has created a huge disparity > between > > > > the haves and have-nots. The haves having computers and > internet and > > > > the havenots having neither. > > > > > > > > A computer is fairly easy to come by now, but affordable > internet > > > > access is not. > > > > > > > > Kids are often assigned homework which includes searching the > > > > internet for answers. Guess who gets screwed? > > > > > > > > And just being in on the loop of things, the internet is > becoming as > > > > 'necessary' as the phone. Especially for kids. Economic > disparity > > > > leads to social disparity. And less opportunities for those > with > > > > disparity. > > > > > > > > I would hope that there is someone out there addressing this > to the > > > > government, Congress, the IRS. > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > --- Steve Guest wrote: > > > > > Well we could debate this for months. Let me clear up a > few things > > > > > first: > > > > > 1) We are technically an ISP, but since Microsoft started > putting > > > > > the connect to the internet icon on its desk top the idea > of what > > > > > is an ISP has changed. We are an ISP which does not offer > direct > > > > > connection to the Internet, only to a server on the > Internet. We > > > > > were and still are a founding member of Washington > Association of > > > > > Internet Service Providers (WAISP) which is a lobbying > group. But > > > > > due to the failure of most of the local ISPs to either > survive or > > > > > not get eaten by the national big fish, WAISP could soon > die from a > > > > > lack of membership. So it depends on your definition of an > ISP. > > > > > 2) As far as the costs for an ISP - these are well know > and we > > > > > have investigated them. If we were to take NWNexos for > example, it > > > > > had a budget of several millions when WindStar bought it > and still > > > > > it failed to be profitable. There are way too many factors > to make > > > > > this a simple calculation. We would also change our > profile and > > > > > start to impact others like wolfnet, drizzle and eskimo. > There are > > > > > several ISPs open to offers in the area, go look at their > books if > > > > > you think this is a viable proposition. From my costings, > I worked > > > > > out that we would need about $5-10 Million a year for SCN's > > > > > operations and service to be "professional", plus a major > culture > > > > > shift. Which is way too many $10 customers. > > > > > 3) I am confused by the 501(c)3 comment. Lobbying is not a > high > > > > > priority for SCNA at present. The thing that Eugene did, > as far as > > > > > I can see, is that it needed money and decided to do a fee > for > > > > > service. They didn't read the small print though. Any fee > for > > > > > service is fine if the service is educational, but as a > connection > > > > > to the Internet, it is deemed by the IRS to not be > educational. > > > > > They currently agree that the service is educational, but > the > > > > > connection to the internet is offered by 100s of other > vendors > > > > > which are commercial. Therefore this breaks the 501(c)3 > agreement > > > > > with the IRS. Plus it brings us back to the first point - > we are a > > > > > connection to a "service" which is educational and on the > Internet. > > > > > > > > > > Personally, if I thought a for-profit with low cost for > service > > > > > would make a profit, I would be doing that rather than > working for > > > > > SCN as a volunteer CEO. Plus I think I know where I could > have > > > > > gotten a few "staff" that might wish to work for me rather > than > > > > > volunteering. So if running a cheap access ISP were > profitable, > > > > > then where are they? They came and most went with the > dot.coms. > > > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > > > > > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org > steve at groupworks.org > > > > > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > > > > > (425) 653 7353 > http://www.scn.org/ > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: emailer1 > > > > > To: Marilyn Sheck ; scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > > > > > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 1:42 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles > Times > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The key part of Steve Guest's message is the following: > > > > > ____________________ > > > > > "I do not see SCN being able to commit > > > > > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > > > > > > > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It > is > > > > > initialy an > > > > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web > resource for > > > > > Seattle. > > > > > We were never in the free ISP business." > > > > > _____________________ > > > > > > > > > > The above contains a Catch 22 element. (1) We do not > have the > > > > > funds and staff to support a full ISP (including standard > graphical > > > > > functions); and (2) we will continue to offer a very > limited type > > > > > of service and so we will NEVER attract or bring in the > funds to > > > > > support such a full ISP service. > > > > > > > > > > Rather than mere speculation, it will be necessary to get > a > > > > > proper accounting (indepent) to determine > > > > > 1. How much funding it would take to operate an > independent, > > > > > proper ISP. (Staff and hardware) > > > > > 2. How many paying subscribers it would take (at > $10/month) to > > > > > support such an ISP service. (This price would under cut > almost > > > > > all other services.) > > > > > 3. How many low-income subscriptions could be offered > for little > > > > > or no cost under this full ISP scenario. > > > > > > > > > > If the answers to 1 and 2 are positive (i.e., it would be > doable > > > > > to get enough subscribers to fully fund all aspects of a > complete > > > > > ISP service), THEN it would be appropriate to discuss > abandoning > > > > > the tax-free status and switch to a for-profit service. > > > > > > > > > > By the way, the tax-free status comes at a cost: SCNA > cannot > > > > > lobby. SCNA, like Eugene was, is severely limited by the > IRS as to > > > > > what low-income services it can offer and as to what > philosophical > > > > > stance it can follow actively. > > > > > > > > > > The library connection also has similar costs. If SCNA > actually > > > > > did become active (read "controversial"), the library could > no > > > > > longer provide free connection. As Steve pointed out, > "(SCN)A is > > > > > initialy an email and maillist site." The design of the > > > > > organization is limited by that earlier small mission. > Keeping the > > > > > library "sponsorship" and the subsequent tax-free status > prevent > > > > > SCNA from being a desireable ISP and from being an > effective > > > > > community influence. > > > > > > > > > > Until an independent accounting can answer 1, 2, & 3, > there is no > > > > > way to describe SCNA's potential or future. It can only > continue > > > > > to drift. > > > > > > > > > > P.S. > > > > > > > > > > About the statement: "We were never in the free ISP > business." > > > > > > > > > > Actually, that is exactly what we used to tell everyone > -- that > > > > > we WERE a free ISP. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Marilyn Sheck > > > > > To: scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org > > > > > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 1:53 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles > Times > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well said, Steve. And, YES, you are right about the > library > > > > > not being able > > > > > to sustain your internet feed if your traffic > increased. We > > > > > are already having > > > > > trouble with our bandwidth just with SCN in its present > form > > > > > combined with > > > > > our own services. We would not be able to use public > funds, > > > > > which is what > > > > > we pay for the Internet connection with, to support > SCN's > > > > > connection if it > > > > > is more than a small fraction of our overall bandwidth > usage. > > > > > > > > > > >>> steveg at scn.org 12/21/01 01:08PM >>> > > > > > Hi > > > > > Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the > other > > > > > hand, this is > > > > > basic command style access and not FREE Internet > access. I > > > > > agree it would > > > > > be great to offer such services, but we have address > some > > > > > important issues > > > > > first. > > > > > > > > > > Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet > access. > > > > > > > > > > 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to > the > > > > > Internet via > > > > > our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to > the > > > > > Internet, then > > > > > the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably. > This would > > > > > be > > > > > followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed, > because > > > > > currently I > > > > > have been led to believe that the Library would not be > able to > > > > > justify the > > > > > cost of the service. This would mean that we would > have to > > > > > provide our > > > > > own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need > then to be > > > > > in the > > > > > Library because we are then simply taking up their > limited > > > > > space. So if > > > > > this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the > phone > > > > > lines, the > > > > > Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. > We do > > > > > not have the > > > > > budget for this and we would be out of funds within > months or > > > > > weeks. > > > > > > > > > > 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as > indicated > > > > > that > > > > > Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of > worms. > > > > > First lets > > > > > point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a > whole > > > > > different set of > > > > > rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are > already > > > > > looking at > > > > > FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on > the > > > > > educational value > > > > > of the service. As soon as we set up a competing > service with > > > > > a > > > > > commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service > - in an > > > > > area which > > > > > is not directly education then we fall outside the > charitable > > > > > status. > > > > > Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened > or is > > > > > happening to > > > > > Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company > to sell > > > > > their fee > > > > > for service IP connections and break away from the > educational > > > > > section. > > > > > Again something that would put us at odds with the > Library and > > > > > its > > > > > donation to us. > > > > > > > > > > The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten > to SCN, > > > > > but we are > > > > > in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal. > > > > > > > > > > Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this, > understand the > > > > > Library's > > > > > view, have the funds and staff to support this and the > software > > > > > to ensure > > > > > that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN > being able > > > > > to commit > > > > > to supplying free full internet access for our users. > > > > > > > > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It > is > > > > > initialy an > > > > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web > resource > > > > > for Seattle. > > > > > We were never in the free ISP business. > > > > > > > > > > I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say > we > > > > > cannot discuss > > > > > these points, but we need to ensure that we can support > our > > > > > current > > > > > services before we branch into others. > > > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= > > > > > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org > steve at groupworks.org > > > > > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network > > > > > (425) 653 7353 > > > > > http://www.scn.org/ > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service. > Victoria > > > > > freenet > > > > > > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is > a great > > > > > deal. > > > > > > > > > > > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail > or some > > > > > other > > > > > > web-based service to check their mail, after they > have surfed > > > > > the net > > > > > > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it > hard to go > > > > > to a > > > > > > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web. > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New > Lease on > > > > > Life" is > > > > > > > in today's Los Angeles Times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadline > > > s%2Dtechnology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * > * * * * > > > > > * * * * > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message > to: > > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the > message, type: > > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also > available on the > > > > > web at: > > > > > > > ==== > > > > > > > * * * * * * * > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ > > > > > * * * * > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > > > > * * * * * > > > > > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board > members' > > > > > internal > > > > > communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you > have > > > > > questions > > > > > about this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * > * * * * * > * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > web at: > ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * > * * * * * > * > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today > > > Only $9.95 per month! > > > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today > Only $9.95 per month! > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Wed Jan 9 09:52:41 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:52:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks In-Reply-To: <20020109045505.13027.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patrick -- I better disclaim first -- again. I'm NOT an expert -- and I'm mostly repeating what I think I heard. There are two ways (at least) I gather. One approach is to think about this mostly as a local area thing -- and not connect to the Internet even. The other is to connect somehow to the Internet -- so that people within the "cloud" can get to the Internet and so that people outside a local cloud could get access to services within the cloud. Seattle seems to be taking the first approach, NYC the second. As for connecting to DSL or cable nobody is necessarily against the idea -- just that if the connection is legally provided for one person then providing it to others is risky both in legal ramification but also in reputation. -- doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, patrick wrote: > Doug, > > What type of connection or system do they propose or support? > > If no DSL or cable connection, what type of set-up? > > Patrick > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > I don't know a lot either... > > > > I did attend the wireless community networks "summit" last > > Sunday down in Georgetown. They had people from the UK, > > NYC, Portland, the Bay Area, etc. Mostly hardware talk but > > the Bay Area guy (see www.bawug.org) presented a > > network that he had set up at Burning Man. I gave a tiny > > presentation in which I mentioned that I thought the > > social side was *very* important and not to be neglected - > > what are these netowrks *FOR*?? Some of the people I > > talked to said that they were originaly interested in > > the hardware but have now come to appreciate the social > > implications. > > > > I get the impression that the Seattle group is among > > the most ambitious and most organized but this may be > > just an impression. I've asked them to conduct a > > "Wireless 101" at the May CPSR conference. > > > > As for the connecting loads of people to the Internet > > via a shared DSL my recollection is that the people at > > the summit advised AGAINST that idea. This helps promote > > the idea that this effort is a hacker/pirate effort. > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY > > * > > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change > > * > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 > > * > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure > > * > > * is being shaped today. > > * > > * But by whom and to what ends? > > * > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, patrick wrote: > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > Was this answered already? I've had a hectic day/week: > > > > > > http://www.seattlewireless.net > > > > > > There is not much to having a wireless network. If you have a > > WiFi or > > > Apple AirPort card installed in your computer, then get onto a > > DSL > > > connection, you can have about 50 people logging into your DSL > > > connection. That is it, more or less. > > > > > > So it is a matter of organizing people to volunteer to have their > > > machine set up to be a wireless station while people can securely > > tap > > > into the pipe. > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > Sorry about the very delayed reply. > > > > Very cool stuff, indofar as I understand (which is admittedly > > not > > > > far: I'm a > > > > software guy, not very h/w knoledgeable). > > > > Obviously creating such a network would not be an endeavor for > > SCN > > > > as such, but > > > > is it possbile that somewhere under the umbrella of SCNA there > > > > might be room to > > > > start an interest group or something? Or is there something > > else > > > > already under > > > > way in Seattle that we could at least refer people to if they > > are > > > > interested? > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > > > New O'Reilly book out called Building Wireless Community > > > > Networks: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/ > > > > > > > > > > Thanks to Apple, they have found a way to expand computing to > > new > > > > > horizons with this highspeed wireless networking to a cool, > > new > > > > > level. It's almost subversive, isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > > > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * > > * * > > > > * * * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > > web > > > > at: ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * > > * * > > > > * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > > * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > > at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > > * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 11:41:52 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 11:41:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020109194152.69911.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Heck, sounds like an ISP could be set up with a T-1 line, no modems, just have the wireless network hubs set up. That would cut a lot of costs if someone would want to start up an ISP. No modems! Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > Patrick -- > > I better disclaim first -- again. I'm NOT an expert -- and > I'm mostly repeating what I think I heard. > > There are two ways (at least) I gather. One approach is > to think about this mostly as a local area thing -- and > not connect to the Internet even. The other is to connect > somehow to the Internet -- so that people within the "cloud" > can get to the Internet and so that people outside a local > cloud could get access to services within the cloud. Seattle > seems to be taking the first approach, NYC the second. > > As for connecting to DSL or cable nobody is necessarily > against the idea -- just that if the connection is legally > provided for one person then providing it to others is > risky both in legal ramification but also in reputation. > > -- doug > > > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY > * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change > * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 > * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure > * > * is being shaped today. > * > * But by whom and to what ends? > * > > ****************************************************************** > > > On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, patrick wrote: > > > Doug, > > > > What type of connection or system do they propose or support? > > > > If no DSL or cable connection, what type of set-up? > > > > Patrick > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > I don't know a lot either... > > > > > > I did attend the wireless community networks "summit" last > > > Sunday down in Georgetown. They had people from the UK, > > > NYC, Portland, the Bay Area, etc. Mostly hardware talk but > > > the Bay Area guy (see www.bawug.org) presented a > > > network that he had set up at Burning Man. I gave a tiny > > > presentation in which I mentioned that I thought the > > > social side was *very* important and not to be neglected - > > > what are these netowrks *FOR*?? Some of the people I > > > talked to said that they were originaly interested in > > > the hardware but have now come to appreciate the social > > > implications. > > > > > > I get the impression that the Seattle group is among > > > the most ambitious and most organized but this may be > > > just an impression. I've asked them to conduct a > > > "Wireless 101" at the May CPSR conference. > > > > > > As for the connecting loads of people to the Internet > > > via a shared DSL my recollection is that the people at > > > the summit advised AGAINST that idea. This helps promote > > > the idea that this effort is a hacker/pirate effort. > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY > > > > * > > > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change > > > > * > > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 > > > > * > > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure > > > > * > > > * is being shaped today. > > > > * > > > * But by whom and to what ends? > > > > * > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > Was this answered already? I've had a hectic day/week: > > > > > > > > http://www.seattlewireless.net > > > > > > > > There is not much to having a wireless network. If you have a > > > WiFi or > > > > Apple AirPort card installed in your computer, then get onto > a > > > DSL > > > > connection, you can have about 50 people logging into your > DSL > > > > connection. That is it, more or less. > > > > > > > > So it is a matter of organizing people to volunteer to have > their > > > > machine set up to be a wireless station while people can > securely > > > tap > > > > into the pipe. > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > > Sorry about the very delayed reply. > > > > > Very cool stuff, indofar as I understand (which is > admittedly > > > not > > > > > far: I'm a > > > > > software guy, not very h/w knoledgeable). > > > > > Obviously creating such a network would not be an endeavor > for > > > SCN > > > > > as such, but > > > > > is it possbile that somewhere under the umbrella of SCNA > there > > > > > might be room to > > > > > start an interest group or something? Or is there something > > > else > > > > > already under > > > > > way in Seattle that we could at least refer people to if > they > > > are > > > > > interested? > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > New O'Reilly book out called Building Wireless Community > > > > > Networks: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wirelesscommnet/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks to Apple, they have found a way to expand > computing to > > > new > > > > > > horizons with this highspeed wireless networking to a > cool, > > > new > > > > > > level. It's almost subversive, isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > > > > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at > http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > > > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * > * * > > > * * > > > > > * * * * > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on > the > > > web > > > > > at: ==== > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ > * > > > * * > > > > > * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > > > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > web > > > at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * > * * > > > * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: > > > ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * > * * > > > * * * > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Wed Jan 9 19:10:03 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 19:10:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: building wireless community networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As to using wireless connections for a LAN, aside from any issues of connecting to the Internet, there is a parallel in the old Fidonet. That was a network of users that regularly made dialup connections to transfer mail. And as local ("free") dialing areas often overlap, it was possible to extend the network quite a ways without excessive long-distance charges. However, I believe ready access to the Interent supplanted it. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Wed Jan 9 20:57:37 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 20:57:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Reputation In-Reply-To: <000801c198f4$b07e6480$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, emailer1 wrote: > ... this JJ can be pretty mean to people. Which might be your justly deserved deserts! But, as Patrick noted, hiding your true identity doesn't make you an less excoriable. Actually, I tend to be gentler (with certain exceptions) with people I know (whether I like them or not), and even more so when I know that the person contributes to SCN. And when someone has a history of being sensible, where they have earned a good reputation, I am quite willing to proffer the respect they deserve. On the other hand, someone who has shown repeated inability to understand or accept reasonable explanations, someone who doesn't respect other's knowledge or experience, or abuses the forms of discursive inquiry, or someone who is motivated less by a spirit of truth-seeking and more by gratuitous monomania, who perhaps has earned a reputation other than good--well, such a person deserves no better than they get. Discussing an issue is one thing. But _forcing_ discussion of an issue that does not warrant discussion is political chicanery, and warrants some attention to the mode and motivation of the sender. So go ahead and hide your identity, your past history, and your reputation. You are nothing. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Jan 10 09:56:27 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:56:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Identity revealed: "emailer1" Message-ID: <20020110175627.77483.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Vern, I'm emailer1 and I know a lot of people have been wondering if I am 11 years old or 99 years old, or somewhere in-between. If I live in Orlando, Florida or Timbuktu. I want to have input on SCN's future "options" and would like to know where things are going, because, SCN, ya' know, should be telling me and the rest of us about the future of SCN, and they should have an answer or goal, however I shouldn't have to reveal my identity, because it's like important, ya' know? I just might be the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus or George W., so I really don't want to blow my cover. And if I reveal my name, as far as my logic goes, I just might get jumped on by a certain someone. Extending that logic, if I keep my secrecy, I am eternally protected from flame mail, muggings, junk mail, and acid rain. Because I'm like protected, ya' know? Know what I mean, Vern? However, that secrecy does not preclude me from wanting to know where SCN is going. Thank you, Mr. Top "emailer1" Secret P.S. Okay, I will tell you who I am: Mark Sidran. Or J.P. Patches. Or maybe I am Dixie Lee Ray (and you thought I was dead!) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Thu Jan 10 03:27:38 2002 From: bn890 at scn.org (bn890 at scn.org) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:27:38 +0000 Subject: SCN: Identity revealed: emailer1 Message-ID: <200201101927.LAA29235@scn4.scn.org> Patrick, This is probably the reason that when people apply for a user ID for SCN, they are asked to fill out the application form, giving name, adress, etc, and we should have that on record. As an instructor, I haven't been doing classes lately due to the fact that both Central & Henry branch libraries are under (de)construction. We had been using PA's, George Goodwin was in charge of supplying them. I don't think I even have any more left over. The only class I would need them for now is at the STAR Center, and I'm not sure yet when that next one is. E-MAILER1--whoever you are, if you can't reveal your identity then I do not want to see you on my screen. What is it that you are hiding? > Hi Vern, I'm emailer1 and I know a lot of people have been wondering > if I am 11 years old or 99 years old, or somewhere in- between. If I > live in Orlando, Florida or Timbuktu. > > I want to have input on SCN's future "options" and would like to know > where things are going, because, SCN, ya' know, should be telling me > and the rest of us about the future of SCN, and they should have an > answer or goal, however I shouldn't have to reveal my identity, > because it's like important, ya' know? > > I just might be the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus or George W., so I > really don't want to blow my cover. And if I reveal my name, as far > as my logic goes, I just might get jumped on by a certain someone. > Extending that logic, if I keep my secrecy, I am eternally protected > from flame mail, muggings, junk mail, and acid rain. > > Because I'm like protected, ya' know? Know what I mean, Vern? > > However, that secrecy does not preclude me from wanting to know where > SCN is going. > > Thank you, > Mr. Top "emailer1" Secret > > P.S. Okay, I will tell you who I am: Mark Sidran. Or J.P. Patches. Or > maybe I am Dixie Lee Ray (and you thought I was dead!) > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo .com/videomail/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > .. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From eastmarketingsystem at flashmail.com Thu Jan 10 17:44:09 2002 From: eastmarketingsystem at flashmail.com (eastmarketingsystem at flashmail.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:44:09 -0800 Subject: SCN: Hello !!! Message-ID: <200201110148.RAA24030@scn.org> I can't believe the response I've gotten from this letter. I'm no millionaire, but I'm making lots of extra spending cash every day! For almost no investment in time or money. Please just read this message, and decide for yourself. Dear Friend: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time'' THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! =============================================== Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO. Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is another testimonial: ''This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOTchange anything.'' More testimonials later but first, *** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE *** $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: **** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. **** For each report, send $5CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5X 5 = $25.00. **** Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. ****. IMPORTANT -DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 5 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT #4down TO REPORT #5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT #3 down TO REPORT #4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT #2 down TO REPORT #3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT #1 down TO REPORT #2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT #1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ================================================= Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ============================================ let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2%response, that is only 10 orders for report #1. Those 10people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded and ordered Report #2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report #3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report #4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million)e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50+ 2..... $500+ 3..... $5,000+ 4..... $50,000+ 5..... $500,000.........Grand Total = $555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4thof those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD #2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET =================================================== Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD #2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. _______________ AVAILABLE REPORTS__________________ ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ============================================== Report #1:"The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net" Order Report #1 from: G. Barnett 112 Rainbow Dr. Hertford,NC 27944 USA ============================================== REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net Order Report #2 from: SATO P.O. Box 631041 Houston, TX 77263-1041 USA ============================================== REPORT #3: Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net Order Report #3 from: Brian Thimesch 300 Rachelle Ave. #114 Sanford, FL 32771-7921 USA ============================================== REPORT #4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net" Order Report # 4 from: R.M.S. P.O. Box 161614 Fort Worth, TX 76161-1614 USA ============================================== REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free" Order Report # 5 from: Sean Lindsay 18/4 Wardieburn Street West Edinburgh UK $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT #2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you , and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP Track of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAIL SAND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! ____________________________________________________ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: "You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 and so on to...#5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! ************** MORETESTIMONIALS**************** '' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a total of $ 147,200.00 all cash!I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf, M.D. , Chicago, Illinois ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e- mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- '' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to Internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON OUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! This is a one time mailing. To be removed from our database, reply with "REMOVE"in the subject line. To ensure that the "unsubscribe process" has been completed successfully please allow 2 weeks. We do apologize for any interim emails that are received while we are updating our records * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Thu Jan 10 23:38:36 2002 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:38:36 -0800 Subject: SCN: Cyberlaw Message-ID: <3C3E25FC.15227.4B01974@localhost> x-no-archive: yes =================== (Carl S. Kaplan, NY Times)---Today's column is the final Cyber Law Journal. Of course, the legal puzzles created by the realm of cyberspace haven't ended. So it's appropriate that this last installment is about the future. What are the 2-3 major Internet law and policy issues that are likely to crop up in 2002? A group of legal mavens took up that challenge, and their edited predictions appear below. James Boyle Professor, Duke University Law School The year 2002 will see the first real chance for the Supreme Court to signal, through its consideration of a number of cert petitions, what kind of constitutional restraints, if any, it will impose on the new expansions of intellectual property law: the range wars of the Internet. While the most dangerous of these expansions -- the so-called database bill that gives property rights over unoriginal compilations of facts -- has not yet become law, there will be continued and intense pressure to pass it, with equally strong resistance from the science, research and civil liberties communities. If the Supreme Court signals some willingness to apply the First Amendment to intellectual property rules in a serious way, or to take seriously the restrictions of the Constitution's intellectual property clause, then the database bill will be in trouble. As a result it may be drafted in a less sweeping way. The converse is also true. Dismissive treatment from the Supreme Court will merely embolden the proponents of maximalist intellectual property protection. And in the long run, it is the property rules that will shape the Internet's future more thoroughly than the rules on censorship or filtering or taxation. Dan L. Burk Professor, University of Minnesota Law School First, I expect to see increasingly sophisticated attacks against the constitutionality of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act's anti- circumvention provisions [which prohibit the use of, or trafficking in, a computer code the circumvents the encryption scheme protecting certain digital content]. The courts in 2001 addressed some First Amendment issues, but ducked the really hard question: whether Congress in passing the DMCA exceeded the constitutional power given to it under the Intellectual Property clause. The Supreme Court has held that Congress' power under the IP clause is limited - - copyright cannot be extended to unoriginal or factual works, and patents cannot be extended to obvious inventions. But the DMCA's anti-circumvention rules make no differentiation between protectable and unprotectable material. This exceeds Congress' power under the IP clause. I expect to see lawsuits filed during the next year that put that question front and center, and since it is the kind of question that the Supreme Court has shown an interest in, I would expect that the Court would like to take that kind of case. Second, and perhaps ultimately more important to Internet law, will be the resolution to the negotiations on the Hague Convention on Jurisdiction and Foreign Judgments. This is a treaty negotiation that has been going on for several years; during 2000 and 2001 it became clear that it is likely to shape the future of international e- commerce. The treaty deals with transborder enforcement of legal judgments. U.S. businesses initially pushed for this treaty, hoping to get more of their judgments enforced abroad, but apparently forgetting that it would work both ways judgments obtained in other countries could be enforced here. This has broad implications for, among other things, intellectual property, defamation, and the kind of situation Yahoo! got into regarding Nazi memorabilia in France. David Post Professor, Temple University Law School Predictions are too difficult . . . though I think you can bet on the following headline: "Music Iindustry Fails in Attempts to Get Users to Patronize Sponsored Music Services." Barry Steinhardt American Civil Liberties Union 1. The upcoming decision of the U.S. Supreme Court in ACLU v. Ashcroft, which challenges the constitutionality of the Children's Online Protection Act -- Congress's second attempt to restrict all speech on the Internet to only that which is suitable for minors. The decision may test whether Internet speech continues to enjoy the highest constitutional protection. 2. The inevitable abuses of the free speech and privacy rights of law-abiding Americans under the USA Patriot Act. These abuses will occur under a cloak of national security and it will be years before they come to light. 3. The trial before a special U.S. Court in Philadelphia, which will test the constitutionality of the Children's Internet Protection Act, which forces libraries to install crude Internet filtering programs that will block lawful and valuable speech from their patrons -- children and adults alike. Marc Rotenberg Executive Director, Electronic Privacy Information Center 1. The Hague Convention on Jurisdiction and Foreign Judgments will grind to a halt. The already beleaguered effort to establish international rules for enforcement of private judgments still faces strong opposition from ISPs and consumer groups. 2. Consumer groups pressed the Federal Trade Commission in 2001 to look closely at the privacy and security implications of Microsoft's Passport -- a universal log-on service. Now that the Department of Justice's "Let-Us-Trust" Division has taken a pass on the long-running lawsuit and the private litigants seem ready to settle, the focus could quickly shift back to the FTC. Will the FTC act? 3. The copyright industry was on a roll in the past year, knocking out Napster and defending the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Now the question is whether consumers are ready for digital products that track users, report to manufacturers and shut down when licenses expire. Jack Balkin Professor, Yale Law School Certainly one of the most important developments this year will be the continuing struggle between free speech and intellectual property in the courts. Civil libertarians will try to push for recognized First Amendment defenses against copyright and paracopyright. At the same time, businesses will continue to try to invoke the First Amendment as a defense against government regulation of the telecom industry. Although these two trends both invoke the First Amendment, they actually represent very different philosophies and, indeed, mutually opposed visions of what free speech is all about. Jessica Litman Professor, Wayne State University Law School Some things I'll be watching in 2002: (1) What sorts of Internet privacy measures, those to enhance and those to diminish or prevent privacy and anonymity, will be acceptable in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks, and what will fly under the radar using prevention of terrorism as an excuse? (2) Whether a variety of government and business initiatives to respond to threats of cyber-terrorism will advance or undermine the adoption of open source software as an alternative to popular and currently vulnerable commercial computer programs. Larry Lessig Professor, Stanford Law School Microsoft and Disney will become the most important allies in defending the core values of the Internet. Cass Sunstein Professor, University of Chicago Law School It's hard to predict the future. But let's look closely at (a) efforts to use to Internet to track terrorism and other crimes, (b) the possible diminution of privacy rights, and (c) efforts to censor apparently dangerous speech on the Internet. Ivan Fong Senior Counsel, E-Commerce and Information Technology, General Electric 1. The USA Patriot Act [the anti-terrorism measure that, among other things, includes new rules about the government's access to information on the Internet] will largely survive constitutional challenges in the courts. 2. The Supreme Court will strike down, on First Amendment grounds, those portions of the Child Pornography Prevention Act that effectively criminalize the generation of digital images of fictitious children engaged in imaginary but explicit sexual conduct. The high court will urge Congress to draft a narrower prohibition. 3. Congress will pass legislation to encourage companies to share cyber-security data with the government, by exempting such data from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act and by providing antitrust protection for companies that collaborate on cyber-security matters. Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sharma at blarg.net Fri Jan 11 04:19:05 2002 From: sharma at blarg.net (sharma at blarg.net) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 04:19:05 -0800 Subject: SCN: Identity revealed: emailer1 References: <200201101927.LAA29235@scn4.scn.org> Message-ID: <3C3ED839.79CA3BD@blarg.net> My guess is that this is our old friend Rich... -sharma bn890 at scn.org wrote: > > Patrick, > > This is probably the reason that when people apply for a > user ID for SCN, they are asked to fill out the > application form, giving name, adress, etc, and we should > have that on record. > > As an instructor, I haven't been doing classes lately due > to the fact that both Central & Henry branch libraries are > under (de)construction. > > We had been using PA's, George Goodwin was in charge of > supplying them. I don't think I even have any more left > over. The only class I would need them for now is at the > STAR Center, and I'm not sure yet when that next one is. > > E-MAILER1--whoever you are, if you can't reveal your > identity then I do not want to see you on my screen. > What is it that you are hiding? > > > Hi Vern, I'm emailer1 and I know a lot of people have > been wondering > > if I am 11 years old or 99 years old, or somewhere in- > between. If I > > live in Orlando, Florida or Timbuktu. > > > > I want to have input on SCN's future "options" and would > like to know > > where things are going, because, SCN, ya' know, should > be telling me > > and the rest of us about the future of SCN, and they > should have an > > answer or goal, however I shouldn't have to reveal my > identity, > > because it's like important, ya' know? > > > > I just might be the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus or > George W., so I > > really don't want to blow my cover. And if I reveal my > name, as far > > as my logic goes, I just might get jumped on by a > certain someone. > > Extending that logic, if I keep my secrecy, I am > eternally protected > > from flame mail, muggings, junk mail, and acid rain. > > > > Because I'm like protected, ya' know? Know what I mean, > Vern? > > > > However, that secrecy does not preclude me from wanting > to know where > > SCN is going. > > > > Thank you, > > Mr. Top "emailer1" Secret > > > > P.S. Okay, I will tell you who I am: Mark Sidran. Or > J.P. Patches. Or > > maybe I am Dixie Lee Ray (and you thought I was dead!) > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > > href="http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/">http://promo.yahoo > .com/videomail/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * > * * * * * * * * > > .. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the > message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on > the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * href="http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn- > l/">http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * > * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bk846 at scn.org Fri Jan 11 12:36:53 2002 From: bk846 at scn.org (Bill Scott) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:36:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Identity revealed: emailer1 In-Reply-To: <3C3ED839.79CA3BD@blarg.net> Message-ID: put my guess in that column too. On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 sharma at blarg.net wrote: > > My guess is that this is our old friend Rich... > > -sharma > > > bn890 at scn.org wrote: > > > > Patrick, > > > > This is probably the reason that when people apply for a > > user ID for SCN, they are asked to fill out the > > application form, giving name, adress, etc, and we should > > have that on record. > > > > As an instructor, I haven't been doing classes lately due > > to the fact that both Central & Henry branch libraries are > > under (de)construction. > > > > We had been using PA's, George Goodwin was in charge of > > supplying them. I don't think I even have any more left > > over. The only class I would need them for now is at the > > STAR Center, and I'm not sure yet when that next one is. > > > > E-MAILER1--whoever you are, if you can't reveal your > > identity then I do not want to see you on my screen. > > What is it that you are hiding? > > > > > Hi Vern, I'm emailer1 and I know a lot of people have > > been wondering > > > if I am 11 years old or 99 years old, or somewhere in- > > between. If I > > > live in Orlando, Florida or Timbuktu. > > > > > > I want to have input on SCN's future "options" and would > > like to know > > > where things are going, because, SCN, ya' know, should > > be telling me > > > and the rest of us about the future of SCN, and they > > should have an > > > answer or goal, however I shouldn't have to reveal my > > identity, > > > because it's like important, ya' know? > > > > > > I just might be the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus or > > George W., so I > > > really don't want to blow my cover. And if I reveal my > > name, as far > > > as my logic goes, I just might get jumped on by a > > certain someone. > > > Extending that logic, if I keep my secrecy, I am > > eternally protected > > > from flame mail, muggings, junk mail, and acid rain. > > > > > > Because I'm like protected, ya' know? Know what I mean, > > Vern? > > > > > > However, that secrecy does not preclude me from wanting > > to know where > > > SCN is going. > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Mr. Top "emailer1" Secret > > > > > > P.S. Okay, I will tell you who I am: Mark Sidran. Or > > J.P. Patches. Or > > > maybe I am Dixie Lee Ray (and you thought I was dead!) > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > > > > href="http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/">http://promo.yahoo > > .com/videomail/ > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * > > * * * * * * * * > > > .. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the > > message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on > > the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * > href="http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn- > > l/">http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * > > * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Bill Scott bk846 at scn.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From drweiss at staff.uchsc.com Sat Jan 12 03:02:14 2002 From: drweiss at staff.uchsc.com (drweiss at staff.uchsc.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 05:02:14 -0600 (GMT) Subject: SCN: ADHD, alcoholism, and other Addictions Message-ID: Do YOU need help or know somebody who needs help with any of the following addictions? alcoholism drug addiction smoking ADHD (attention hyper deficit disorder) sugar or carbohydrate bingeing PreMenstrual Syndrome,(PMS) Research has shown successfully throughout history that there is help. In 1990 Dr. Kenneth Blum discovered the gene for alcoholism. This led to amazing research in the treatment for all of the above mentioned addictions. Dr. Kenneth Blum is the Father of Psychiatric genetics. He is credited with discovering the gene for cocaine addiction. In 1995 he coined RDS, Reward Deficiency Syndrome, which will forever change our world. Steve Allen the media great is quoted as saying "with regard to my former show where I interview the greatest minds-today I would interview Dr. Blum, whose research on the genetics of alcoholism will change the world as we see it today." Dr. Kenneth Blum who has been in private practice his entire career is finally going to help the public. He recently put global patents on 7 products that will completely change the world of addiction. His products that are 100 percent natural are finally ready. These are products that help people control their lives, that are produced by one of the most well known, most respected doctors in the medical industry. If you are interested in these products or learning about addiction on Dr. Blums new website please send me an email asap to drweiss at medteam.port5.com with the subject "help" or click below mailto:drweiss at medteam.port5.com?subject=help. This is a 1 time mailing. To be removed from any future mailings please send an email with the subject "remove" to drweiss at masrawy.com. Thank You and have a nice day. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Thu Jan 10 14:42:55 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:42:55 -0800 Subject: SCN: Identity revealed: emailer1 References: <200201101927.LAA29235@scn4.scn.org> Message-ID: <000001c19b85$9a9fbcc0$7152fea9@desktop> As if there aren't more important things..... 1. For all the righteous outrage of bn890, s/he did not identify her/him-self. (Don't tell me; I don't want to know.) 2. The supposed message from emailer1 is bogus. However, for all its flippancy, it does make a point. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: patrick Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 3:27 AM Subject: Re: SCN: Identity revealed: emailer1 > Patrick, > > This is probably the reason that when people apply for a > user ID for SCN, they are asked to fill out the > application form, giving name, adress, etc, and we should > have that on record. > > As an instructor, I haven't been doing classes lately due > to the fact that both Central & Henry branch libraries are > under (de)construction. > > We had been using PA's, George Goodwin was in charge of > supplying them. I don't think I even have any more left > over. The only class I would need them for now is at the > STAR Center, and I'm not sure yet when that next one is. > > E-MAILER1--whoever you are, if you can't reveal your > identity then I do not want to see you on my screen. > What is it that you are hiding? > > > > > Hi Vern, I'm emailer1 and I know a lot of people have > been wondering > > if I am 11 years old or 99 years old, or somewhere in- > between. If I > > live in Orlando, Florida or Timbuktu. > > > > I want to have input on SCN's future "options" and would > like to know > > where things are going, because, SCN, ya' know, should > be telling me > > and the rest of us about the future of SCN, and they > should have an > > answer or goal, however I shouldn't have to reveal my > identity, > > because it's like important, ya' know? > > > > I just might be the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus or > George W., so I > > really don't want to blow my cover. And if I reveal my > name, as far > > as my logic goes, I just might get jumped on by a > certain someone. > > Extending that logic, if I keep my secrecy, I am > eternally protected > > from flame mail, muggings, junk mail, and acid rain. > > > > Because I'm like protected, ya' know? Know what I mean, > Vern? > > > > However, that secrecy does not preclude me from wanting > to know where > > SCN is going. > > > > Thank you, > > Mr. Top "emailer1" Secret > > > > P.S. Okay, I will tell you who I am: Mark Sidran. Or > J.P. Patches. Or > > maybe I am Dixie Lee Ray (and you thought I was dead!) > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > > href="http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/">http://promo.yahoo > .com/videomail/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * > * * * * * * * * > > .. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the > message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on > the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * href="http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn- > l/">http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * > * * > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Sat Jan 12 08:57:08 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 08:57:08 -0800 Subject: SCN: Identity revealed: emailer1 References: <200201101927.LAA29235@scn4.scn.org> <3C3ED839.79CA3BD@blarg.net> Message-ID: <005401c19b8a$2d130d60$7152fea9@desktop> If I change my name to "Rich," do I get his bank account, his girl friend, and his car. (My wife might object to #2.) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: patrick ; ; Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 4:19 AM Subject: Re: SCN: Identity revealed: emailer1 > > My guess is that this is our old friend Rich... > > -sharma > > > bn890 at scn.org wrote: > > > > Patrick, > > > > This is probably the reason that when people apply for a > > user ID for SCN, they are asked to fill out the > > application form, giving name, adress, etc, and we should > > have that on record. > > > > As an instructor, I haven't been doing classes lately due > > to the fact that both Central & Henry branch libraries are > > under (de)construction. > > > > We had been using PA's, George Goodwin was in charge of > > supplying them. I don't think I even have any more left > > over. The only class I would need them for now is at the > > STAR Center, and I'm not sure yet when that next one is. > > > > E-MAILER1--whoever you are, if you can't reveal your > > identity then I do not want to see you on my screen. > > What is it that you are hiding? > > > > > Hi Vern, I'm emailer1 and I know a lot of people have > > been wondering > > > if I am 11 years old or 99 years old, or somewhere in- > > between. If I > > > live in Orlando, Florida or Timbuktu. > > > > > > I want to have input on SCN's future "options" and would > > like to know > > > where things are going, because, SCN, ya' know, should > > be telling me > > > and the rest of us about the future of SCN, and they > > should have an > > > answer or goal, however I shouldn't have to reveal my > > identity, > > > because it's like important, ya' know? > > > > > > I just might be the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus or > > George W., so I > > > really don't want to blow my cover. And if I reveal my > > name, as far > > > as my logic goes, I just might get jumped on by a > > certain someone. > > > Extending that logic, if I keep my secrecy, I am > > eternally protected > > > from flame mail, muggings, junk mail, and acid rain. > > > > > > Because I'm like protected, ya' know? Know what I mean, > > Vern? > > > > > > However, that secrecy does not preclude me from wanting > > to know where > > > SCN is going. > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Mr. Top "emailer1" Secret > > > > > > P.S. Okay, I will tell you who I am: Mark Sidran. Or > > J.P. Patches. Or > > > maybe I am Dixie Lee Ray (and you thought I was dead!) > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > > > > href="http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/">http://promo.yahoo > > .com/videomail/ > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * > > * * * * * * * * > > > .. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the > > message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on > > the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * > href="http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn- > > l/">http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * > > * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Sat Jan 12 18:08:44 2002 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 18:08:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: UN Adopts Resolution On World Summit On Information Society Message-ID: <200201130208.SAA29424@scn.org> FYI... > > From: "Irfan Khan" > To: > [from UNESCO Observatory Newsletter - No 118 - January 11, 2002] > > UN Adopts Resolution On World Summit On Information Society > > > The United Nations has taken a major step toward bridging the digital > divide with the adoption, by the General Assembly, of a resolution > which welcomes the organisation of the World Summit on the > Information Society. The summit, which is expected to promote access > by all countries to information, knowledge and communications > technologies for development. > > [complete story at] > http://allafrica.com/stories/200201100296.html > BTW, there is a preparatory meeting planned for DIAC-02 (http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02) this spring (May 16-19) in Seattle. -- Doug * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Jan 13 19:19:26 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 19:19:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: New Site on SCN In-Reply-To: <008601c198c1$1cf96120$0be5e50c@attbi.com> Message-ID: <20020114031926.39278.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Mel, Your site has been posted on SCN's home page as a featured site of the month (I'll keep it up there through the middle of next month). Patrick Fisher Seattle Community Network --- "Monkelis, Mel" wrote: > Dear SCN > > I am the webmaster for the Washington State Diversity Network > (WSDN) www.scn.org/civic/diversity > > Today I posted a new related site on SCN called the: > Professional Technical Diversity Network > www.scn.org/civic/diversity/ptdn > > Could you please feature it (Site of the Week) in some manner? > This is related to the WSDN in that > The mission of PTDN is to unite employers and professional > organizations that share an ongoing commitment to the enhanced > recruitment, development, and retention of diverse professionals > and technical specialists. > > Thanks! Let me know if you have any questions. > > Mel > _____________________ > Mel Monkelis > 2001 Larrabee Avenue #22 > Bellingham, WA 98225 > Phone 360-223-3065 > Email monkelis at webparadiso.com > Fax 208-279-4248 > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Jan 13 19:52:01 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 19:52:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: UN Adopts Resolution On World Summit On Information Society In-Reply-To: <200201130208.SAA29424@scn.org> Message-ID: <20020114035201.41620.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, Thanks for passing this along. It's about time the UN addressed this. Maybe they took it for granted or simply overlooked how the world has changed so dramatically over the last 5 years. I've been on the net since 1990, so it always seems to be a bit of a surprise to see an organization finally see that there is this wonderful information age that has been around for more than 2 years. Patrick Seattle Community Network --- Doug Schuler wrote: > FYI... > > > > > From: "Irfan Khan" > > To: > > [from UNESCO Observatory Newsletter - No 118 - January 11, 2002] > > > > UN Adopts Resolution On World Summit On Information Society > > > > > > The United Nations has taken a major step toward bridging the > digital > > divide with the adoption, by the General Assembly, of a > resolution > > which welcomes the organisation of the World Summit on the > > Information Society. The summit, which is expected to promote > access > > by all countries to information, knowledge and communications > > technologies for development. > > > > [complete story at] > > http://allafrica.com/stories/200201100296.html > > > > BTW, there is a preparatory meeting planned for DIAC-02 > (http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02) this spring (May 16-19) > in Seattle. > > -- Doug > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Jan 15 13:44:54 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 13:44:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: Broadband (fwd) Message-ID: I'm not trying to start another firestorm but I thought people might be interested in what people at the La Plaza (community network) orgnaization are doing in Taos, New Mexico. (No, I don't know how they can provide this type of service and stay non-profit. There *must* be a way. Don't get me wrong: I'm not advocating it [seriously] but I am of the impression that it can be done [while keeping in line with IRS rulings].) -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * * * * Questions: douglas at scn.org * * (if mail bounces try douglas at cpsr.org) * ****************************************************************** ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 14:08:04 -0600 From: Judith Pepper To: Andrew Michael Cohill Cc: members at afcn.org Subject: Re: Broadband Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 14:09:03 -0700 Resent-From: members at www.afcn.org Resent-cc: recipient list not shown: ; I agree with Andrew and some of the content of both articles re: broadband. La Plaza held a demonstration of wireless service and from our small rural community, 78 people attended. All want broadband and 20+ have "check in hand" waiting for the service to surface. La Plaza is making this happen by collaborating with an existing company that owns a 120 foot tower (required for line of sight purposes with some of the mountainous terrain even in the boundaries of Taos proper), with the Town Council Taos County Commission, and the Taos Business Alliance. BreezeCom radios will be used that offer graduated speeds from 112Kbps, 256, 500, and T1 access. This is both upload/download speeds and will be available 24/7. The monthly costs are respective to the speeds, $40.00, $75.00, $150, $300. I receive at least 5 calls a week from very interested folks who ask to be placed on the list of prospective customers. Once the logistics are completed La Plaza will begin to offer wireless services to the community inclusive of all sectors. We currently provide T1 wireless to Town of Taos admin offices, library, Taos Schools, Taos Hospital, and several businesses. We also offer Tl wireless over intense mountainous terrain to 2 small communities, one south and one north of Taos. The people who are most interested in the service are folks who have come to our remote, rural area (aka paradise) from metropolitan areas. Many are self-employed or a consultants to the national and international business world. They want to be able to send and receive documents in seconds rather than hours over a dialup connection. Once our business surfaces we will collect data descriptive of the end users. Then perhaps we can offer some insight into the value of broadband wireless Internet connectivity. To read about one of La Plaza's more adventurous wireless installs click on http://www.laplaza.org/about_lap/network/wirelessPresentation/Penasco%20Wireless%20Presentation%201-22_files/error.htm adios, judith pepper -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpepper.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 328 bytes Desc: Card for Judith Pepper URL: From douglas at scn.org Tue Jan 15 14:23:13 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 14:23:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: UN Adopts Resolution On World Summit On Information Society In-Reply-To: <20020114035201.41620.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'd like to see some one -- or more -- representatives of SCN sign up for this also! -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * * * * Questions: douglas at scn.org * * (if mail bounces try douglas at cpsr.org) * ****************************************************************** On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, patrick wrote: > Doug, > > Thanks for passing this along. It's about time the UN addressed this. > Maybe they took it for granted or simply overlooked how the world has > changed so dramatically over the last 5 years. > > I've been on the net since 1990, so it always seems to be a bit of a > surprise to see an organization finally see that there is this > wonderful information age that has been around for more than 2 years. > > Patrick > Seattle Community Network > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > FYI... > > > > > > > > From: "Irfan Khan" > > > To: > > > [from UNESCO Observatory Newsletter - No 118 - January 11, 2002] > > > > > > UN Adopts Resolution On World Summit On Information Society > > > > > > > > > The United Nations has taken a major step toward bridging the > > digital > > > divide with the adoption, by the General Assembly, of a > > resolution > > > which welcomes the organisation of the World Summit on the > > > Information Society. The summit, which is expected to promote > > access > > > by all countries to information, knowledge and communications > > > technologies for development. > > > > > > [complete story at] > > > http://allafrica.com/stories/200201100296.html > > > > > > > BTW, there is a preparatory meeting planned for DIAC-02 > > (http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02) this spring (May 16-19) > > in Seattle. > > > > -- Doug > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > > * * * > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Tue Jan 15 19:05:39 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 19:05:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: Broadband (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > ... I am of the impression that it can be done ... And so are they. As _were_ a lot of 'dot.com' businesses just a year or two ago. But note that La Plaza is _not_ a "Freenet" like SCN: they charge, and they charge (relatively) a lot. I don't say that something can't be done, but that it would be a mistake enter that wilderness without better directions than an "impression". === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Wed Jan 16 03:46:05 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 03:46:05 -0800 Subject: SCN: Re: Re: Broadband (fwd) References: Message-ID: <000601c19f2d$50430a00$7152fea9@desktop> Trouble causer! (-: Okay, everybody, yell at Doug for a while. ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Schuler To: Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 1:44 PM Subject: SCN: Re: Broadband (fwd) > > I'm not trying to start another firestorm but I thought > people might be interested in what people at the La Plaza > (community network) orgnaization are doing in Taos, New > Mexico. (No, I don't know how they can provide this type > of service and stay non-profit. There *must* be a way. > Don't get me wrong: I'm not advocating it [seriously] > but I am of the impression that it can be done [while > keeping in line with IRS rulings].) > > -- Doug > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation,Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > * * > * Questions: douglas at scn.org * > * (if mail bounces try douglas at cpsr.org) * > ****************************************************************** > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 14:08:04 -0600 > From: Judith Pepper > To: Andrew Michael Cohill > Cc: members at afcn.org > Subject: Re: Broadband > Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 14:09:03 -0700 > Resent-From: members at www.afcn.org > Resent-cc: recipient list not shown: ; > > I agree with Andrew and some of the content of both articles re: > broadband. La Plaza held a demonstration of wireless service and from our > small rural community, 78 people attended. All want broadband and 20+ > have "check in hand" waiting for the service to surface. > > La Plaza is making this happen by collaborating with an existing company > that owns a 120 foot tower (required for line of sight purposes with some > of the mountainous terrain even in the boundaries of Taos proper), with > the Town Council Taos County Commission, and the Taos Business Alliance. > BreezeCom radios will be used that offer graduated speeds from 112Kbps, > 256, 500, and T1 access. This is both upload/download speeds and will be > available 24/7. > The monthly costs are respective to the speeds, $40.00, $75.00, $150, > $300. > > I receive at least 5 calls a week from very interested folks who ask to be > placed on the list of prospective customers. Once the logistics are > completed La Plaza will begin to offer wireless services to the community > inclusive of all sectors. > We currently provide T1 wireless to Town of Taos admin offices, library, > Taos Schools, Taos Hospital, and several businesses. We also offer Tl > wireless over intense mountainous terrain to 2 small communities, one > south and one north of Taos. > > The people who are most interested in the service are folks who have come > to our remote, rural area (aka paradise) from metropolitan areas. Many are > self-employed or a consultants to the national and international business > world. They want to be able to send and receive documents in seconds > rather than hours over a dialup connection. > > Once our business surfaces we will collect data descriptive of the end > users. Then perhaps we can offer some insight into the value of broadband > wireless Internet connectivity. > > To read about one of La Plaza's more adventurous wireless installs click > on > http://www.laplaza.org/about_lap/network/wirelessPresentation/Penasco%20Wire less%20Presentation%201-22_files/error.htm > > adios, > judith pepper > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Thu Jan 17 04:22:57 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 04:22:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pulling back to where the discussion was approximately a month ago, and ignoring a lot of sniping since, couldn't we fulfill a lot of this need by posting prominently a list of free and inexpensive computing resources in the Seattle area? SCN doesn't need to PROVIDE services that are already out there. We just need to tell people how to find them. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Steve Guest wrote: > Patrick > Agreed - low cost affordable internet access would be great. In fact,in > the WA area we are lucky we still have a few options for free service. > They are going fast. The options are NetZero/Juno which have a 10 hour > per month free but you must click some ads to stay alive. Then we have > dotnow, address, massmednet and qualguard offering variations on the free > service theme. Then finally we have NoCharge which is still here in WA > alive and kicking, but all its other operations seem to have shut down for > one reason or another. Lastly nopay, who were the other free WA ISP, seem > to have stopped their free service without an announcement. The web site > is there, but nothing about the access. > > If you want better service we have accesscheap at $60 a year and 17 others > at under $100 a year. The challenge is that we, SCN, should not be seen > to push one service over any other. Apart from the possible liability > issues, we cannot and must guarentee thrid party connections. > > It depends what you are willing to put up with. Most of these have banner > or pop ads, no matter what the fee size and structure. > > Steve > > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > I think the point I had was low-cost internet service. Affordable > > internet service. > > > > Not that I think SCN should go there. If it did, that would be nice, > > but that would be a long way off anyway. > > > > It would be nice if Seattle had a non-profit internet service. In the > > sense that it was paid for by the local community, users, and not > > developed to make lots of money. > > > > Affordable internet service is an issue, not computers. Computers aer > > cheap, free, but service to the internet is not free, nor is it > > cheap. > > > > Unless you go to the library and use it for free. > > > > Having internet service for $104 a year would really put it within > > the reach of a lot of people. Currently, at $20 a month, it's a bit > > expensive. > > > > Patrick > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From Marilyn.Sheck at spl.org Thu Jan 17 08:33:25 2002 From: Marilyn.Sheck at spl.org (Marilyn Sheck) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 08:33:25 -0800 Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times Message-ID: Here's a list of the providers in the 206 area code: http://thelist.internet.com/areacode/206/ >>> jmabel at speakeasy.org 01/17/02 04:22AM >>> Pulling back to where the discussion was approximately a month ago, and ignoring a lot of sniping since, couldn't we fulfill a lot of this need by posting prominently a list of free and inexpensive computing resources in the Seattle area? SCN doesn't need to PROVIDE services that are already out there. We just need to tell people how to find them. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Steve Guest wrote: > Patrick > Agreed - low cost affordable internet access would be great. In fact,in > the WA area we are lucky we still have a few options for free service. > They are going fast. The options are NetZero/Juno which have a 10 hour > per month free but you must click some ads to stay alive. Then we have > dotnow, address, massmednet and qualguard offering variations on the free > service theme. Then finally we have NoCharge which is still here in WA > alive and kicking, but all its other operations seem to have shut down for > one reason or another. Lastly nopay, who were the other free WA ISP, seem > to have stopped their free service without an announcement. The web site > is there, but nothing about the access. > > If you want better service we have accesscheap at $60 a year and 17 others > at under $100 a year. The challenge is that we, SCN, should not be seen > to push one service over any other. Apart from the possible liability > issues, we cannot and must guarentee thrid party connections. > > It depends what you are willing to put up with. Most of these have banner > or pop ads, no matter what the fee size and structure. > > Steve > > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > I think the point I had was low-cost internet service. Affordable > > internet service. > > > > Not that I think SCN should go there. If it did, that would be nice, > > but that would be a long way off anyway. > > > > It would be nice if Seattle had a non-profit internet service. In the > > sense that it was paid for by the local community, users, and not > > developed to make lots of money. > > > > Affordable internet service is an issue, not computers. Computers aer > > cheap, free, but service to the internet is not free, nor is it > > cheap. > > > > Unless you go to the library and use it for free. > > > > Having internet service for $104 a year would really put it within > > the reach of a lot of people. Currently, at $20 a month, it's a bit > > expensive. > > > > Patrick > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' internal communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have questions about this list. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Jan 17 09:40:48 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:40:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020117174048.47355.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Marilyn, That is a great idea. I had thought of putting together resources for people on SCN, but where do you start? This task was on the burner before Christmas, but went to the backburner. Steve seems to imply that he knows where these inexpensive services are. Patrick --- Marilyn Sheck wrote: > Here's a list of the providers in the 206 area code: > > http://thelist.internet.com/areacode/206/ > > >>> jmabel at speakeasy.org 01/17/02 04:22AM >>> > Pulling back to where the discussion was approximately a month ago, > and ignoring > a lot of sniping since, couldn't we fulfill a lot of this need by > posting > prominently a list of free and inexpensive computing resources in > the Seattle > area? > > SCN doesn't need to PROVIDE services that are already out there. We > just need to > tell people how to find them. > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Steve Guest wrote: > > > Patrick > > Agreed - low cost affordable internet access would be great. In > fact,in > > the WA area we are lucky we still have a few options for free > service. > > They are going fast. The options are NetZero/Juno which have a > 10 hour > > per month free but you must click some ads to stay alive. Then > we have > > dotnow, address, massmednet and qualguard offering variations on > the free > > service theme. Then finally we have NoCharge which is still here > in WA > > alive and kicking, but all its other operations seem to have shut > down for > > one reason or another. Lastly nopay, who were the other free WA > ISP, seem > > to have stopped their free service without an announcement. The > web site > > is there, but nothing about the access. > > > > If you want better service we have accesscheap at $60 a year and > 17 others > > at under $100 a year. The challenge is that we, SCN, should not > be seen > > to push one service over any other. Apart from the possible > liability > > issues, we cannot and must guarentee thrid party connections. > > > > It depends what you are willing to put up with. Most of these > have banner > > or pop ads, no matter what the fee size and structure. > > > > Steve > > > > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > I think the point I had was low-cost internet service. > Affordable > > > internet service. > > > > > > Not that I think SCN should go there. If it did, that would be > nice, > > > but that would be a long way off anyway. > > > > > > It would be nice if Seattle had a non-profit internet service. > In the > > > sense that it was paid for by the local community, users, and > not > > > developed to make lots of money. > > > > > > Affordable internet service is an issue, not computers. > Computers aer > > > cheap, free, but service to the internet is not free, nor is it > > > cheap. > > > > > > Unless you go to the library and use it for free. > > > > > > Having internet service for $104 a year would really put it > within > > > the reach of a lot of people. Currently, at $20 a month, it's a > bit > > > expensive. > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > * * * > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' > internal > communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have > questions > about this list. > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Thu Jan 17 10:01:55 2002 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:01:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <20020117174048.47355.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patrick, A good project would be to update SCN's list of local public Internet access locations. It's getting pretty out of date. Would anyone like to volunteer to update it? It's at http://www.scn.org/help/where There's a somewhat broader menu that includes this, at http://www.scn.org/help/access And we have a list of local ISPs, also a bit out of date but not as much as the public access locations menus, at http://www.scn.org/help/isp Rod Clark webeditors at scn.org Patrick Fisher wrote: > Marilyn, > > That is a great idea. I had thought of putting together resources for > people on SCN, but where do you start? This task was on the burner > before Christmas, but went to the backburner. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From femme2 at speakeasy.org Thu Jan 17 10:02:22 2002 From: femme2 at speakeasy.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:02:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <20020117174048.47355.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You could start with David Keyes at the City of Seattle, a map of such resources was created prior to a community computer fair a while ago - whether it's been updated I do not know. IndyMedia folks are also collecting information. The Neighborhood Networks folks - what they are called now escapes me - also had a list of resources. SCN could provide a database and map where up-to-date info was readily accessible. Links to the various locations. Maybe graphics to show if the site offered classes, was not open to the public (some low-income housing, for example). Mapping resources has been done since the very early days of SCN - too bad the efforts never were put into a format accessible to the public - and maintained. Lorraine ================================ On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, patrick wrote: > Marilyn, > > That is a great idea. I had thought of putting together resources for > people on SCN, but where do you start? This task was on the burner > before Christmas, but went to the backburner. > > Steve seems to imply that he knows where these inexpensive services > are. > > Patrick > > --- Marilyn Sheck wrote: > > Here's a list of the providers in the 206 area code: > > > > http://thelist.internet.com/areacode/206/ > > > > >>> jmabel at speakeasy.org 01/17/02 04:22AM >>> > > Pulling back to where the discussion was approximately a month ago, > > and ignoring > > a lot of sniping since, couldn't we fulfill a lot of this need by > > posting > > prominently a list of free and inexpensive computing resources in > > the Seattle > > area? > > > > SCN doesn't need to PROVIDE services that are already out there. We > > just need to > > tell people how to find them. > > > > -------------------- > > Joe Mabel > > > > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Steve Guest wrote: > > > > > Patrick > > > Agreed - low cost affordable internet access would be great. In > > fact,in > > > the WA area we are lucky we still have a few options for free > > service. > > > They are going fast. The options are NetZero/Juno which have a > > 10 hour > > > per month free but you must click some ads to stay alive. Then > > we have > > > dotnow, address, massmednet and qualguard offering variations on > > the free > > > service theme. Then finally we have NoCharge which is still here > > in WA > > > alive and kicking, but all its other operations seem to have shut > > down for > > > one reason or another. Lastly nopay, who were the other free WA > > ISP, seem > > > to have stopped their free service without an announcement. The > > web site > > > is there, but nothing about the access. > > > > > > If you want better service we have accesscheap at $60 a year and > > 17 others > > > at under $100 a year. The challenge is that we, SCN, should not > > be seen > > > to push one service over any other. Apart from the possible > > liability > > > issues, we cannot and must guarentee thrid party connections. > > > > > > It depends what you are willing to put up with. Most of these > > have banner > > > or pop ads, no matter what the fee size and structure. > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > I think the point I had was low-cost internet service. > > Affordable > > > > internet service. > > > > > > > > Not that I think SCN should go there. If it did, that would be > > nice, > > > > but that would be a long way off anyway. > > > > > > > > It would be nice if Seattle had a non-profit internet service. > > In the > > > > sense that it was paid for by the local community, users, and > > not > > > > developed to make lots of money. > > > > > > > > Affordable internet service is an issue, not computers. > > Computers aer > > > > cheap, free, but service to the internet is not free, nor is it > > > > cheap. > > > > > > > > Unless you go to the library and use it for free. > > > > > > > > Having internet service for $104 a year would really put it > > within > > > > the reach of a lot of people. Currently, at $20 a month, it's a > > bit > > > > expensive. > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > > * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > > at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > > * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > > * * * > > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' > > internal > > communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have > > questions > > about this list. > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Jan 17 12:12:20 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:12:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020117201220.24636.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Rod, That's great, but don't you think the resources should be be one or two clicks away? What's everyone's opinion on this one? Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > Patrick, > > A good project would be to update SCN's list of local public > Internet access locations. It's getting pretty out of date. > Would anyone like to volunteer to update it? It's at > > http://www.scn.org/help/where > > There's a somewhat broader menu that includes this, at > > http://www.scn.org/help/access > > And we have a list of local ISPs, also a bit out of date but > not as much as the public access locations menus, at > > http://www.scn.org/help/isp > > Rod Clark > webeditors at scn.org > > Patrick Fisher wrote: > > Marilyn, > > > > That is a great idea. I had thought of putting together resources > for > > people on SCN, but where do you start? This task was on the > burner > > before Christmas, but went to the backburner. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Jan 17 12:13:30 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:13:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020117201330.98761.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Lorraine, Thanks for the info. What should be the definition of resources for this item? What should it encompass? Patrick --- Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > > You could start with David Keyes at the City of Seattle, > a map of such resources was created prior to a community > computer fair a while ago - whether it's been updated I do > not know. IndyMedia folks are also collecting information. > The Neighborhood Networks folks - what they are called now > escapes me - also had a list of resources. > > SCN could provide a database and map where up-to-date info > was readily accessible. Links to the various locations. > Maybe graphics to show if the site offered classes, was not > open to the public (some low-income housing, for example). > > Mapping resources has been done since the very early days of > SCN - too bad the efforts never were put into a format > accessible to the public - and maintained. > > Lorraine > ================================ > > > On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, patrick wrote: > > > Marilyn, > > > > That is a great idea. I had thought of putting together resources > for > > people on SCN, but where do you start? This task was on the > burner > > before Christmas, but went to the backburner. > > > > Steve seems to imply that he knows where these inexpensive > services > > are. > > > > Patrick > > > > --- Marilyn Sheck wrote: > > > Here's a list of the providers in the 206 area code: > > > > > > http://thelist.internet.com/areacode/206/ > > > > > > >>> jmabel at speakeasy.org 01/17/02 04:22AM >>> > > > Pulling back to where the discussion was approximately a month > ago, > > > and ignoring > > > a lot of sniping since, couldn't we fulfill a lot of this need > by > > > posting > > > prominently a list of free and inexpensive computing resources > in > > > the Seattle > > > area? > > > > > > SCN doesn't need to PROVIDE services that are already out > there. We > > > just need to > > > tell people how to find them. > > > > > > -------------------- > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Steve Guest wrote: > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > Agreed - low cost affordable internet access would be great. > In > > > fact,in > > > > the WA area we are lucky we still have a few options for free > > > service. > > > > They are going fast. The options are NetZero/Juno which have > a > > > 10 hour > > > > per month free but you must click some ads to stay alive. > Then > > > we have > > > > dotnow, address, massmednet and qualguard offering variations > on > > > the free > > > > service theme. Then finally we have NoCharge which is still > here > > > in WA > > > > alive and kicking, but all its other operations seem to have > shut > > > down for > > > > one reason or another. Lastly nopay, who were the other free > WA > > > ISP, seem > > > > to have stopped their free service without an announcement. > The > > > web site > > > > is there, but nothing about the access. > > > > > > > > If you want better service we have accesscheap at $60 a year > and > > > 17 others > > > > at under $100 a year. The challenge is that we, SCN, should > not > > > be seen > > > > to push one service over any other. Apart from the possible > > > liability > > > > issues, we cannot and must guarentee thrid party connections. > > > > > > > > It depends what you are willing to put up with. Most of > these > > > have banner > > > > or pop ads, no matter what the fee size and structure. > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, patrick wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think the point I had was low-cost internet service. > > > Affordable > > > > > internet service. > > > > > > > > > > Not that I think SCN should go there. If it did, that would > be > > > nice, > > > > > but that would be a long way off anyway. > > > > > > > > > > It would be nice if Seattle had a non-profit internet > service. > > > In the > > > > > sense that it was paid for by the local community, users, > and > > > not > > > > > developed to make lots of money. > > > > > > > > > > Affordable internet service is an issue, not computers. > > > Computers aer > > > > > cheap, free, but service to the internet is not free, nor > is it > > > > > cheap. > > > > > > > > > > Unless you go to the library and use it for free. > > > > > > > > > > Having internet service for $104 a year would really put it > > > within > > > > > the reach of a lot of people. Currently, at $20 a month, > it's a > > > bit > > > > > expensive. > > > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the > web > > > at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * > * * > > > * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > * * > > > * * * > > > scna-board at scn.org is for the purposes of scna board members' > > > internal > > > communications. Please contact sharma at scn.org if you have > > > questions > > > about this list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Thu Jan 17 14:03:50 2002 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:03:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Final letter to the Fourth World Message-ID: <200201172203.OAA14475@scn.org> Hello! Thanks to Anne Mc Farland of the Akron Free-Net and Steve Cisler, Tom Grundner's "Final letter to the Fourth World' has been released. Is it still relevant? -- Doug Thanks to Google and gopher: gopher://acorn.net/00/FreeWorld/About_NPTN/final.tmg Final Letter to the Fourth World by Dr. Thomas M. Grundner May 1996 Written for the GAR Foundation, Akron, OH Five or six years ago, I began a series of essays on community networking called Letters to the Fourth World. They were written to those who believed in and, in many cases, were trying to build, community networks. They were pioneers really, people who were on the cutting edge of a new communications revolution. They had seen the power of this new medium, sensed its possibilities and, to me, represented literally a "fourth world" which transcended traditional first, second and third world boundaries as easily as this new medium transcends time and space. Far fewer of those essays were written then I would have liked. With the handicap of actually having to DO the things I was writing about, time was at a premium. I regret that now. I really DID feel as though a new age of communication was forming and, while I could not possibly have predicted the way events would eventually unfold, I still feel that way today. A few weeks ago, Anne McFarland, one of the prime movers behind the Akron Regional Free-Net and the newer and even more powerful Akron Community Online Resource Network, contacted me. She knew I had retired from the field, but asked if I would write one last letter--a message to her workers which would somehow summarize what community networking was all about and serve as a guide for their work in the future. I agreed to a Final Letter to the Fourth World. It's funny in a way. I started this letter by typing "Dear..." and then suddenly stopped. Dear... who? I didn't have that problem years ago. I personally knew virtually everyone who was working in community networking and even knew, at least by name, a fair percentage of the users. But, to whom am I writing now? Certainly I am writing to Anne McFarland's group in Akron, Ohio; but, I am writing to a larger audience as well. How big IS the "Fourth World" these days? How many hundreds, how many thousands of people are interested in, thinking about, planning on, or actually operating a community network? I know there are well over a hundred systems in operation across the U.S., Canada, and Europe; and there must be something like a half-million users or more. I know those numbers sound great. They sound somehow comforting. It sounds like each community networker is building on a framework already begun by thousands of people in hundreds of locations around the world. And to a certain extent that's true. But, as much as it sounds like you are walking down a well-worn path in building your system, you will soon discover that you are not. Soon you will see that path narrow, grow fainter and in places even disappear completely. With that in mind, I wanted to leave you with some thoughts--a compass if you will--that I hope will give you some direction when you find yourself hip deep in decisions and it seems like the wilderness has won. I am not going to write a "how to" essay on community organizing, or setting up hardware/software platforms, or for fund raising. Those are all things that are solvable by you in your own way. I would rather keep this brief and try to focus on one thing. I am not even sure what to call it. It's not really what I see to be your "mission" or "objective." It's more like what I see to be the CALLING of community networking. You see, the trick of doing community networking well is to under- stand, truly understand, the enormous power you are in a position to liberate and to figure out a way to harness it for the good of the community you are in. The first step in doing THAT is to understand that the power is NOT located "elsewhere," it is right in front of you in your own town. If you are skeptical, let me try to convince you with an assertion that goes something like this: "Within 10 miles of the center of any reasonably well-populated area is the answer to just about every answerable question a person could ask." Still skeptical? Think about it. Think about your own city or town. >From brain surgery to bicycling, from quantum mechanics to auto mechanics--I am willing to bet that within that 10 mile radius is SOMEONE who knows the answer to just about any answerable question you could have. Think about your own situation. How much do you know? I don't mean necessarily how many college degrees do you have. I mean how much do you know about all manner of weird and wonderful things? Now multiply yourself times the number of people in your community--ALL of them. Include the newly minted college graduates and the newly retired college professors. Include the people who work in the factories and farms. Include all the people with a lifetime of experience--people who cannot only tell you how to fix the carburetor on a '58 Chevy, but can offer you some insights on living that are definitely not found in a formal Introduction to Philosophy class. Do you understand the unbelievable power those resources represent? Have you ever come across one of those weird statistics that sort of shocks you? Things like--if the electrical power of a single lightening bolt could be harnessed, it would light up the City of New York for two days--that kind of thing. Well, this is on the same order of magnitude because the implications of my radius assertion are just as stunning. What would happen if we could somehow harness those untapped informa- tion resources-the resources that exist not just in books written by a handful of authors, but in the minds and lives of everyone? What would happen if we could somehow capture that lightening bolt and utilize the thousands of lifetimes of experience and learning that "naturally occur" in every community in the country? What would happen if there were a common fountain of information available in each community to which anyone at any age could add, and from which anyone at any age could draw? People spend their whole lives acquiring knowledge, expertise and ex- perience. Up to this point in our history, the benefits of those resources, for most people, have been confined to that person's family, immediatefriends, employers, and that's about it. What would happen if we could use this technology to break down the walls of that confinement and free up those resources? Would we still teach the same way? Up to now, the ultimate rationale for our educational system has been to prepare new generations to enter the work force. How would that objective be changed if it were possible to modify the civic duties under which we live to include participation in interactive, one-to-many disseminations of knowledge and skills via this technology? Would we still learn the same? Up to now, formal education has been largely textbook based. How would that change if, in addition to the textbooks, one had easy access to people who spent their lives in the arts, or the sciences, or who themselves experienced the history described on the pages of the history books? Would we still learn at the same rate across our lifetime? All too often learning is front-loaded in peoples' lives. As they get older, they don't get dumber, rather the outlets for their expertise get fewer until, by retirement, all too often they feel no need to learn or stay current in anything. What would happen if there were an outlet for expertise--a rationale for learning that spanned one's entire lifetime? How would our professions change? Would the role of librarians remain largely that of managing printed materials, or would it become that of managing community information--in whatever form? Would the role of the teacher remain that of a lecturer, or would it finally (and truly) become that of being a guide? Would health professionals not have a radically new and powerful way of promoting community health? Would community legal professionals not have a radically new and powerful way of promoting understanding of the law? Would religious leaders not have a radically new and powerful way of carrying their message? Would government leaders not have a radically new and powerful way of reaching their constituents? If we can properly harness the capabilities of this technology, how much of a shift in the quality of life would that represent? How many lives would be affected? Seen in this light, the construction and operation of a community network is not simply something neat you can do with an interesting technology. It is much, much more than that. But to realize that potential, you must design and operate your system with that potential firmly in mind. Your job is to build a COMMUNITY computer network, not just a slick bus station to elsewhere. Yes, you should be connected to the Internet. Yes, it is fine to have links to wonderful and exotic sites all over the Web. Yes, it is great to have Usenet Newsgroups. All of this is terrific, but NOT if it undercuts the development of similar online resources in your own town. Your job is to build an INTERACTIVE medium, not just a giant electron- ic brochure dispenser. Yes, it is fine to provide access to local static information files. Certainly, connect to relevant static web sites. But, NOT if that is a substitute for people in your community answering real questions posed by real people. That is the true power of this medium--don't cripple that power! Your job is to build a system for ALL THE PEOPLE in your community, not just the early adopters of technology. I tell you this in all seriousness--your ultimate target audience, in most cases, right now does not even know what a modem is. Your real target audience, even as you read this, is working in a factory, or a steel mill, or on a farm. You are not going to get those people online by offering them access to the card catalog at the University of Paris. You MIGHT get them online by offering them access to local information and communication resources that have genuine meaning and utility for their lives. Make no mistake, the "community networking revolution" has not been won--far from it. If anything, we are probably in a more perilous position now than we were over a dozen years ago when I first began my work. I sometimes think we have forgotten WHY and FOR WHOM we set out to do all this in the first place. But, by the same token, it is not too late. It is a battle that can still be won, and YOU can do it. I am out of the race now. So are a number of other "early pioneers." I am old and tired beyond my years. In my case "enough" has proven to be "too much." But there is a new generation of community networkers coming up--new faces, new voices, new ideas. It is to them, to YOU, that this field must be passed. We lit the community networking torch in the early 80s with 300 baud modems, 16K personal computers and more enthusiasm than common sense. We showed what COULD be done, now you must carry it on from here--into new technologies, into new approaches, into new services, but above all, into the 21st Century without compromise. Just never forget the imperative that is forced on you by the reality, the utter tyranny, of "the radius." It is both the agony and the glory of doing community networking. From alboss at scn.org Thu Jan 17 18:09:59 2002 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 18:09:59 -0800 Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times References: <20020117201220.24636.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C4783F7.1000504@scn.org> > That's great, but don't you think the resources should be be one or > two clicks away? > > What's everyone's opinion on this one? > > Patrick My first opinion is, isn't this an awfully broad distribution list for this question? Seems to me like the relevant-to-interest level would be higher on the Webmasters list than on scn at scn.org (awfully broad) and the SCNA Board list (awfully narrow). Or, have we changed our list structure? (By the way, according to http://www.scn.org/maillists/scnlists.html we have two different lists called webeditors at scn.org and one called webeditorss at scn.org. I know we have smart people but I really doubt we've found a way for the exact same address to work for two different mailing lists. And as for that one that's called webeditorss, it really gives me pause; how can I trust editors who can't spell "editors"?) Back on topic, I would think that a list of local public access Internet locations would likely not be something a person would access on so regular a basis as to have it a top-level link off the home page. I think our top-level categories are descriptive enough that folks can figure them out, and I don't think having it at the current one click off the top level (two clicks from the home page) is that burdensome. I'd advocate also putting the link under Netguide (just because I usually think of Help as being help on the system--in this case SCN--as opposed to help on the concept of the Internet and how to get access to it). Al > --- Rod Clark wrote: > >>Patrick, >> >> A good project would be to update SCN's list of local public >>Internet access locations. It's getting pretty out of date. >>Would anyone like to volunteer to update it? It's at >> >> http://www.scn.org/help/where >> >> There's a somewhat broader menu that includes this, at >> >> http://www.scn.org/help/access >> >> And we have a list of local ISPs, also a bit out of date but >>not as much as the public access locations menus, at >> >> http://www.scn.org/help/isp >> >>Rod Clark >>webeditors at scn.org >> >>Patrick Fisher wrote: >> >>>Marilyn, >>> >>>That is a great idea. I had thought of putting together resources >>> >>for >> >>>people on SCN, but where do you start? This task was on the >>> >>burner >> >>>before Christmas, but went to the backburner. >>> >>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * >>* * * >>. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: >>majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: >>unsubscribe scn >>==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: >>==== >>* * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * >>* * * >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Thu Jan 17 19:30:30 2002 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:30:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <20020117201220.24636.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patrick Fisher wrote: > What's everyone's opinion on this one? Patrick, A technology mapping project like this is tailor-made for a public agency like the City, or King County, or Pierce County, or Snohomish County, or Kitsap County, to do. Better yet, all five of them could collaborate on an area-wide version. Olympia and other cities might even contribute to it. It would take a lot of time and effort to keep a complete regional access locations database sufficiently updated and accurate. Public agencies are willing to do this, and can do it very well. SCN is not at all unique in being able to do this kind of clerical work. If SCN undertook such a regional database, it would simply be doing something that the government could do just as well. And that is not what SCN is for. Governmental bodies have shown themselves to be relatively unwilling to build fair, inclusive menus of grassroots groups like SCN has done with its Community menus. SCN is pretty much unique locally in doing that. SCN should keep its focus on directing increased public attention to grassroots groups who often look askance at local governmental bodies. Just try to find some of the more controversial issue-oriented groups that SCN hosts on the City's neighborhoods menus, or on King County's neighborhoods menus. They aren't there, and have never been, and we will all grow old and die before these governments will direct attention to some of these groups. The only reason that I made the King/Pierce access menus in the first place, a few years ago, was that the City decided not to coordinate its efforts with King County, and at that time Pierce County wasn't even close to providing any similar information. That's probably all changed now. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Jan 17 19:35:50 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:35:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN General Meeting - January 23rd Message-ID: <20020118033550.79453.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> An SCN general meeting is being held at the University branch library in Seattle, 50th and Roosevelt, just east of I-5 on January 23rd, from 6:30 pm to 8:30 pm. Public meeting will be casual with any variety of topics for discussion. Message will be posted on the SCN home page. Patrick Seattle Community Network __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Jan 17 19:40:18 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:40:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Qwest (a.k.a. USWaste) Message-ID: <20020118034018.13448.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> There is information posted on the SCN home page about Qwest Communications planning to sell customer information by default. There is information about public meetings on this issue and whom to contact via email about the plan. Patrick Seattle Community Network __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Jan 17 19:51:06 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:51:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times In-Reply-To: <3C4783F7.1000504@scn.org> Message-ID: <20020118035106.85092.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> First, this topic is totally appropriate for scn at scn.org. It is a topic that involves the public and would benefit the public: Low cost internet resources. And this is a grassroots organization. It's also a great place to solicit input. Second, the mailing list page sucks. It looks awful. I have requested input on this topic more than once. And I do not know who created two lists called webeditors at scn.org and one called webeditorss at scn.org. Cleaning time is coming soon, awaiting the new site redesign implementation. However, there is a very good chance that I won't wait that long to clean up the mailing lists page. If you run a mailing list, or are on a mailing list here at SCN, then please let me know who the intended audience is. And the purpose of the list. Thanks. There is no reason SCN should have more lists than volunteers. That is absurd. Patrick --- Al Boss wrote: > > That's great, but don't you think the resources should be be one > or > > two clicks away? > > > > What's everyone's opinion on this one? > > > > Patrick > > > My first opinion is, isn't this an awfully broad distribution list > for > this question? Seems to me like the relevant-to-interest level > would be > higher on the Webmasters list than on scn at scn.org (awfully broad) > and > the SCNA Board list (awfully narrow). Or, have we changed our list > structure? > > (By the way, according to > http://www.scn.org/maillists/scnlists.html we > have two different lists called webeditors at scn.org and one called > webeditorss at scn.org. I know we have smart people but I really doubt > > we've found a way for the exact same address to work for two > different > mailing lists. And as for that one that's called webeditorss, it > really > gives me pause; how can I trust editors who can't spell "editors"?) > > Back on topic, I would think that a list of local public access > Internet > locations would likely not be something a person would access on so > > regular a basis as to have it a top-level link off the home page. I > > think our top-level categories are descriptive enough that folks > can > figure them out, and I don't think having it at the current one > click > off the top level (two clicks from the home page) is that > burdensome. > I'd advocate also putting the link under Netguide (just because I > usually think of Help as being help on the system--in this case > SCN--as > opposed to help on the concept of the Internet and how to get > access to it). > > Al > > > > --- Rod Clark wrote: > > > >>Patrick, > >> > >> A good project would be to update SCN's list of local public > >>Internet access locations. It's getting pretty out of date. > >>Would anyone like to volunteer to update it? It's at > >> > >> http://www.scn.org/help/where > >> > >> There's a somewhat broader menu that includes this, at > >> > >> http://www.scn.org/help/access > >> > >> And we have a list of local ISPs, also a bit out of date but > >>not as much as the public access locations menus, at > >> > >> http://www.scn.org/help/isp > >> > >>Rod Clark > >>webeditors at scn.org > >> > >>Patrick Fisher wrote: > >> > >>>Marilyn, > >>> > >>>That is a great idea. I had thought of putting together > resources > >>> > >>for > >> > >>>people on SCN, but where do you start? This task was on the > >>> > >>burner > >> > >>>before Christmas, but went to the backburner. > >>> > >>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * > >>* * * > >>. To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > >>majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > >>unsubscribe scn > >>==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: > >>==== > >>* * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * > >>* * * > >> > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * > * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From alboss at scn.org Thu Jan 17 23:04:22 2002 From: alboss at scn.org (Al Boss) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 23:04:22 -0800 Subject: Propriety (was: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times) References: <20020118035106.85092.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C47C8F6.7060104@scn.org> Patrick, I normally respect your opinions and I always appreciate your committment and the fact that you care so much about our online community. This time, though, I hope you reconsider some of what you had to say. > First, this topic is totally appropriate for scn at scn.org. It is a > topic that involves the public and would benefit the public... This sounds to my ears more like a difference of opinion than a statement of fact. By your definition here, I would guess we should be doing all our discussions on scn at scn.org, since I imagine everything we do either involves or benefits the public. If that's the case, I can understand why you are not using some of the interest/task-specific sub-lists. Though the concept of the cc to the Board still confounds me. > Second, the mailing list page sucks. It looks awful. I guess I don't understand your definition of "sucks". The page I visited certainly performed the task I needed from it. If I hadn't included a URL I'd wonder if we were even looking at the same page. And, regardless of the perfectly human typo or whatever that duplicated a couple of list names, it looks to me as if one of my fellow volunteers has put more than a little of their time and effort into the pages that provide overviews of our mailing lists. I didn't create the mailing list page, but I can imagine the humiliation its creator must feel about having our Webmaster broadcast the above opinion to the hundreds of people on scn at scn.org, as well as cc'd to our SCNA Board of Directors. If it were my page, I wouldn't know how to take this other than very personally, regardless of whether or not the perceived disrespect was the intent. > If you run a mailing list, or are on a mailing list here at SCN, then > please let me know who the intended audience is. And the purpose of > the list. Since I am able to look at the awful mailing lists page and immediately read who the lists' intended audiences are, and what the purpose of each of the lists is, do I suck too? Or am I just missing your definition of "suck"? At the very least, it appears that our opinions of propriety differ, not only on the appropriate venue for a discussion but also on the quality and specificity of feedback offered on one's work. > There is no reason SCN should have more lists than volunteers. Maybe, but if anyone in an SCN leadership position were to take it upon themselves to email the Board and all of scn at scn.org that one of _my_ pages sucks, there would likely be one less volunteer for our number of lists, too. May I respectfully request that the points be re-stated? I find myself unclear on what the issue is. Also, if the list owners have read this far, could I trouble some of you to share with us additional information about how we can best use our lists? I have read what's on our site: The Web interest list is for discussion among SCN's webeditors volunteers and others who are interested in SCN's Web site, the Board list is for communication to and among the board of directors, and the SCN list is for discussion among SCN's webeditors volunteers and others who are interested in SCN's Web site but from that it seems to me that I'm not correctly understanding these words, or that we're misusing our lists (is updating a page on SCN really a Board issue?), or that our documentation no longer matches the way we use our lists and is in need of updates from the list owners. Not for the first time in my life, I'm confused. I'll look forward to clarification. Thanks, Al * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Jan 18 09:49:48 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 09:49:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Propriety (was: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times) In-Reply-To: <3C47C8F6.7060104@scn.org> Message-ID: <20020118174948.20722.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Al, Please, first, take what I said at face value. I'm not one for splitting hairs, nor writing extensively to explain each and every nuance of what adjectives that I use. Please be fairly liberal in your interpretation of what I write. "Fairly" is the operative word. Second, I did a 'reply all' to your response, so the board was included. Whoever included the board, well, I don't know. I thought it was you, but it doesn't really matter. That is why the board got my response. I didn't feel it was necessary, but whoever started the thread, well they felt it was necessary. Third, as I had already explained, SCN is a grassroots organizati9on. And it is there to represent those who are not usually represented in teh mainstream media, web sites, or other avenues of exposure. And I feel that SCN is for those who need or want free internet access by whatever means we can provide. So SCN does have a focus and it tends toward internet access for all. That is why I continued the discussion of low-cost internet service on teh scn at scn.org list: First to get suggestions and input on this topic, and to make people aware of what is available. As for the word "sucks", this from Merriam-Webster: slang : to be objectionable or inadequate <"people who went said it sucked" -- H. S. Thompson>. Patrick --- Al Boss wrote: > Patrick, I normally respect your opinions and I always appreciate > your > committment and the fact that you care so much about our online > community. This time, though, I hope you reconsider some of what > you had > to say. > > > First, this topic is totally appropriate for scn at scn.org. It is a > > topic that involves the public and would benefit the public... > > > This sounds to my ears more like a difference of opinion than a > statement of fact. By your definition here, I would guess we should > be > doing all our discussions on scn at scn.org, since I imagine > everything we > do either involves or benefits the public. If that's the case, I > can > understand why you are not using some of the interest/task-specific > > sub-lists. Though the concept of the cc to the Board still > confounds me. > > > > Second, the mailing list page sucks. It looks awful. > > > I guess I don't understand your definition of "sucks". The page I > visited certainly performed the task I needed from it. If I hadn't > included a URL I'd wonder if we were even looking at the same page. > And, > regardless of the perfectly human typo or whatever that duplicated > a > couple of list names, it looks to me as if one of my fellow > volunteers > has put more than a little of their time and effort into the pages > that > provide overviews of our mailing lists. > > I didn't create the mailing list page, but I can imagine the > humiliation > its creator must feel about having our Webmaster broadcast the > above > opinion to the hundreds of people on scn at scn.org, as well as cc'd > to our > SCNA Board of Directors. If it were my page, I wouldn't know how to > take > this other than very personally, regardless of whether or not the > perceived disrespect was the intent. > > > If you run a mailing list, or are on a mailing list here at SCN, > then > > please let me know who the intended audience is. And the purpose > of > > the list. > > Since I am able to look at the awful mailing lists page and > immediately > read who the lists' intended audiences are, and what the purpose of > each > of the lists is, do I suck too? Or am I just missing your > definition of > "suck"? At the very least, it appears that our opinions of > propriety > differ, not only on the appropriate venue for a discussion but also > on > the quality and specificity of feedback offered on one's work. > > > > There is no reason SCN should have more lists than volunteers. > > > Maybe, but if anyone in an SCN leadership position were to take it > upon > themselves to email the Board and all of scn at scn.org that one of > _my_ > pages sucks, there would likely be one less volunteer for our > number of > lists, too. > > May I respectfully request that the points be re-stated? I find > myself > unclear on what the issue is. > > Also, if the list owners have read this far, could I trouble some > of you > to share with us additional information about how we can best use > our > lists? I have read what's on our site: > > The Web interest list is for discussion among SCN's webeditors > volunteers and others who are interested in SCN's Web site, the > Board > list is for communication to and among the board of directors, and > the > SCN list is for discussion among SCN's webeditors volunteers and > others > who are interested in SCN's Web site > > but from that it seems to me that I'm not correctly understanding > these > words, or that we're misusing our lists (is updating a page on SCN > really a Board issue?), or that our documentation no longer matches > the > way we use our lists and is in need of updates from the list > owners. > > Not for the first time in my life, I'm confused. I'll look forward > to > clarification. > > Thanks, > > Al > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From reply1627 at xmarketing.org Sat Jan 19 06:53:43 2002 From: reply1627 at xmarketing.org (reply1627 at xmarketing.org) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 08:53:43 -0600 Subject: SCN: Introduction of Aristotle Message-ID: <1011441383.0747135822@mail.xmarketing.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at advocate.net Mon Jan 21 15:37:03 2002 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:37:03 -0800 Subject: SCN: Usenet history Message-ID: <3C4C359F.26200.19CD31@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ================== The geeks who saved Usenet (Katharine Mieszkowski, Salon)---On May 11, 1981, one Mark Horton, then a graduate student at the University of California at Berkeley, using the e-mail address "ucbvax^mark," posted this message to the Usenet newsgroup Net.general: Rusty is right (or is that "Rusty is Wright"?) - we have ALL in our .ngfile so I tend to forget this. ALL.ALL may or may not work, but ALL certainly does. Mark Then, the ancient Internet scribe added this ominous postscript: I plan to make the change on Tuesday unless something horrible happens. Horton's message was a response to a previous post, the intact original of which is now lost to history, from one "sdcarl!rusty," aka Rusty Wright. With this incomplete fragment of a cryptic exchange, the history of Usenet, as we have it today, begins. The message is the oldest Usenet posting in the 20-year archive, now searchable on Google. It's the first of some 700 million posts that provide a record spanning the early history to the present of Usenet -- the sprawling public bulletin board, composed of a vast hierarchy of newsgroups, that grew up alongside the Internet itself. Granted, this message doesn't exactly have the ever-quotable and historic ring of Alexander Graham Bell braying on the first telephone call, "Mr. Watson. Come here. I need you." But it's not the first Usenet message ever -- it's just the first one captured in this vast, yet still incomplete, archive of Usenet's 35,000 topic categories. It's an ordinary exchange between two of the first few hundred denizens of Usenet posting back in 1981. Still, if you squint, you can see glimmers of what's to follow in this poignant gem of a fragment. What are these geeks talking about, anyway? It's a meta-post about the system itself, of course! It's part of a technical discussion of how Usenet should be administered. And catch that corny play on words, goofing off Rusty's last name: "or is that 'Rusty is Wright'?" Geeks talking amongst themselves on Usenet about how Usenet should best be run, while having fun with homonyms: Almost 20 years later, has anything really changed? In mid-December 2001, Google unveiled its improved Usenet archives, which now go more than a decade deeper into the Net's past than did the millions of posts that the company salvaged from DejaNews. Now on a browser near you: a glimpse of the prehistory of the Net culture we all take for granted today. The first "me too" post! The first "Make-Money-Fast" post! It's enough to make even a relative newbie nostalgic for a past she never experienced firsthand. The debut of the archive touched off a flurry of chatter among the geeks on Slashdot, some of whom had been there back in the day. There were some grumbles. Imagine what it's like to see your flames from 15 years ago, when Usenet still had the population of a small town, now searchable by anyone on the Web. "Glad I've changed my e-mail address since those long, (best) forgotten days. It wasn't me, I swear," joked one poster to Slashdot. Another one griped: "It's like having naked baby pictures of yourself stapled to your forehead when you walk around." (Google vows that at the author's request, they'll delete old posts; so if you want to be the Internet equivalent of a rare-book burner, go right ahead.) Google gets the credit for making these relics of the early Net accessible to anyone on the Web, bringing the early history of Usenet to all. Michael Schmidt, 29, a Google software engineer, spent the last year and a half playing detective, trying to track down the Internet's lost history: "It was a long and painful investigative process. I was searching on the Web, calling people. There were a lot of dead ends." But it was the geeky pragmatism and historical foresight of Usenet old-timers themselves that actually saved the early history of the newsgroups so that we can all poke around in it today. These "archive donors," whom Google thanks here, gave their copies of the millions of messages they'd saved back to the Net. The tale of how early Usenet was saved begins with one of the Net's great old-timers: Henry Spencer. "Henry Spencer is the real hero, because his contributions are what makes this historic," says Schmidt. "Back in the Stone Age of the Internet, he was already archiving this stuff, and he was the only one doing it." Spencer, a legendary Unix hacker -- a species not exactly known for humility -- is pleasantly understated about his role as Usenet's great early archivist. He's the first to point out that he wasn't really the only one saving those early messages. But the copies he kept of Usenet postings from 1981 to 1991 appear to be the only ones that still exist. "There were several other people who were archiving stuff, but all of them gave up before we did, and as far as I know none of their archiving survived," he says. For instance, legend has it that two guys at Bell Labs kept back-ups as well, but their stores of these ultra-rare posts are nowhere to be found. "I'm very glad the stuff is finally out there, and I can stop worrying about how the only copy might get lost," Spencer says, now that Google has assured the preservation of the more than 2 million old messages he saved. "I'm just glad that this particular great mass of data is no longer my worry." One of the early adopters of the computer language C, Spencer is known for his Ten Commandments for C Programmers, as well as for being the coauthor of C News, one of the early programs for transferring and reading Usenet messages. Now 46 years old, he works as an independent consultant, but back in 1981 he ran the computer facility at the University of Toronto's zoology department. While the geeks over in the university's computer science department were busy with the Arpanet, the Department of Defense's system was too expensive for the zoologists. "The zoology department may sound like a funny place for pioneering networking work," says Spencer. "But the computer science department wasn't very interested in this inferior networking. It was very low-tech by their standards. But it worked and theirs didn't. Their opinion changed fast when we started providing e-mail." That's how, in the spring of 1981, with a 300 baud modem, the zoology department at the University of Toronto became a central distribution point for Usenet, when the network was just 2 years old. Traffic was almost unimaginably lighter in those days. Only about 200 people had access to Usenet: "In the first few years, it was at least plausible to come in in the morning and read all the Usenet traffic that had come in, and 15 minutes later be off doing something useful," remembers Spencer. But even that low level of traffic was too much for the storage requirements of the day. "Pretty soon, it was necessary to think about expiring old stuff," he says. It wasn't a sense of historical importance that initially led Spencer to think about creating an archive. His motivation was much more pragmatic than that: Most of the conversations on Usenet at the time were very technical, and he was reluctant to see the information in them disappear, because it might be useful to the university's geeks: "A lot of the early traffic was about things like Unix systems bugs, and it seemed unwise to just throw it out." So the archiving began with 40 megabytes filling up a new mag tape -- each reel one-half inch thick and 10 inches in diameter -- every few months. In this era, messages from the outside world came in at the tortoise rate of 300 baud. ("When we got a 1,200 baud auto-dialing modem, that was just wonderful. Twelve- hundred baud was just total luxury," Spencer recalls.) As Usenet grew, this meant that Spencer and his system administrators had to be selective about which newsgroups they received and archived, keeping technical conversations but throwing away some of the more general discussions that generated a lot of traffic. "We started dumping stuff that we thought was obviously of no future use, groups that specialized in a lot of talk and no substance, so to speak. For example, fairly early on there was a newsgroup about abortion which specialized in violent arguments." That's why not only the very earliest Usenet posts, before Spencer started archiving in 1981 (Usenet began in 1979) but even some of the posts in the 1980s are still lost. It's too bad; today, wouldn't more of us rather see what was being said about abortion in 1984 than sift through the arcana of bug fixes in systems that have probably been long since retired? "It was perfectly reasonable from the viewpoint of stuff that we might want to use again, but a little sad from today's viewpoint," Spencer admits. For 10 years, the nine-track mag tapes piled up, hanging in a huge rack at the zoology department's computer facility. Finally, in the early '90s, with the growth of Usenet outpacing the zoology department's budget for $15-a-pop tapes, the general archiving project ended. In the spring of 1991, Bruce Jones, then a grad student in the communications department at the University of California at San Diego, flew to Ontario at his own expense. He was writing his Ph.D. dissertation on the history of Usenet and was eager to get his hands on Spencer's tapes. The 141 tapes, most of which held 120 megabytes of posts, now lived at the University of Western Ontario, thanks to a road trip in the middle of the Canadian winter that David Wiseman, the university's network administrator, had taken earlier that year to unburden the University of Toronto's zoology department of them. Jones would spend the next two weeks rescuing the data off them. Not only was the tape technology rapidly becoming obsolete -- just try to find a working tape-reader today -- but the tapes themselves do not have anything like a 10-year shelf life. By now the historical import of the tapes was already apparent. But spending two weeks running tapes through a tape-cleaning machine and dumping them on disks was the prerequisite to even looking at them. "Spencer had written a program for removing data from tapes when the tapes went bad," Jones explains. "I was just the first person who was willing to invest my time and money -- a lot of people wanted to see what was on them." In two weeks, Jones got through the first 105 tapes. "Usenet has always been about arguing about itself," Jones says of the posts that were unearthed. "And the arguments that you see today are the same arguments that go way back into the early '80s, and I'm sure that those arguments will continue well into the future." Case in point: the fact that the older parts of the archive are now available on Google has given Usenet denizens something new to argue about. "I've already gotten three letters from people accusing me of trying to make money off these archives," Jones observes wryly. All the "archive donors" gave the posts to Google for posterity. Over the next 10 years, Wiseman got through the remaining three dozen or so tapes by wangling the time and energies of "bored graduate students." But by 1995, constrained by university budgets, the archiving project was running out of disk space. So, Brewster Kahle, the creator of the Web's other major archiving project, the Internet Archive Wayback Machine, chipped in, donating a then-humongous nine-gigabyte hard drive to the cause. In the end, they pulled more than 2,056,000 posts off the 141 tapes. "It took us 10 years. I got so busy and everybody else got less interested," says Wiseman, almost sheepishly. More than 2 million posts: It doesn't sound like a lot compared to the 700 million total in Google's archive, but they're the oldest remnants. Apparently someone is still interested. Wiseman used FTP to hand off the files to Google. And just after Google announced the availability of the archive, some rogue used FTP to grab the whole archive off the University of Western Ontario's FTP server -- all three gigs of it transferring in one night. "I have no idea what they plan on using it for, since if it's spam e-mail the addresses are all wrong," says Wiseman. Now, anyone who wants a full copy will have to ask politely first -- it's no longer on the server. Google filled in the more recent posts not covered by the old DejaNews archive thanks to Jürgen Christoffel of the German National Research Center for Information Technology, who'd kept his own archives in the '90s, and Kent Landfield, a network security developer and the maintainer of FAQs.org. Landfield started archiving with entrepreneurial motives. In 1992 and 1993, while at Sterling Software in Omaha, Neb., Landfield had a side project that sold CDs of the Usenet archive. For $349.95 a year, every month you could get a CD burned with the content of Usenet. It was an attempt to cater to the user with a slower modem who still wanted access to every newsgroup. "I realized that there was definitely a valuable historical aspect to the CDs themselves," says Landfield. "The reality is, everybody thought that. We're all just a bunch of packrats. We all knew there was a value to it, and it was a matter of how and when it would be used." Thanks to these packrats, Google now estimates that 95 percent of the posts ever made to Usenet are now searchable from the site. But Spencer, for one, can't help thinking of all that's still been lost -- not just of the other 5 percent of Usenet, but also of the other early history of online communication. Think of the Arpanet mailing lists that were the precursors to Usenet. Spencer points out that while most of the mailing lists kept archives, a significant number of them have been lost over time. "The first flame war, things like that, most certainly dates before Usenet," he says. "And I would bet that a lot of that material is gone, because at some point, nobody thought it was worth saving." Copyright 2002 Salon.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 17:40:07 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:40:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN General Meeting - January 23rd Message-ID: <20020122014007.28062.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Reminder: There will be an SCN general meeting on January 23rd, 6:30 to 8:45 pm, open to the public. No specific agenda. Meeting will be held at the Seattle Public Library's University branch library at 50th and Roosevelt. Patrick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 18:03:32 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:03:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Usenet history In-Reply-To: <3C4C359F.26200.19CD31@localhost> Message-ID: <20020122020332.18028.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Google has really pulled off something grand with having the Usenet archive available to everyone. It's quite amazing. I have found posts that I made 12 years ago! It brings back memories. And the added features of the first this, first that, is quite something. Patrick --- Steve wrote: > x-no-archive: yes > > ================== > > > The geeks who saved Usenet > > (Katharine Mieszkowski, Salon)---On May 11, 1981, one Mark > Horton, then a graduate student at the University of California at > Berkeley, using the e-mail address "ucbvax^mark," posted this > message to the Usenet newsgroup Net.general: > > Rusty is right (or is that "Rusty is Wright"?) - we have ALL in our > > .ngfile so I tend to forget this. ALL.ALL may or may not work, but > ALL certainly does. Mark > > Then, the ancient Internet scribe added this ominous postscript: > > I plan to make the change on Tuesday unless something horrible > happens. > > Horton's message was a response to a previous post, the intact > original of which is now lost to history, from one "sdcarl!rusty," > aka > Rusty Wright. With this incomplete fragment of a cryptic exchange, > the history of Usenet, as we have it today, begins. > > The message is the oldest Usenet posting in the 20-year archive, > now searchable on Google. It's the first of some 700 million posts > that provide a record spanning the early history to the present of > Usenet -- the sprawling public bulletin board, composed of a vast > hierarchy of newsgroups, that grew up alongside the Internet > itself. > > Granted, this message doesn't exactly have the ever-quotable and > historic ring of Alexander Graham Bell braying on the first > telephone call, "Mr. Watson. Come here. I need you." But it's not > the first Usenet message ever -- it's just the first one captured > in > this vast, yet still incomplete, archive of Usenet's 35,000 topic > categories. It's an ordinary exchange between two of the first few > hundred denizens of Usenet posting back in 1981. > > Still, if you squint, you can see glimmers of what's to follow in > this > poignant gem of a fragment. What are these geeks talking about, > anyway? It's a meta-post about the system itself, of course! It's > part > of a technical discussion of how Usenet should be administered. > And catch that corny play on words, goofing off Rusty's last name: > "or is that 'Rusty is Wright'?" > > Geeks talking amongst themselves on Usenet about how Usenet > should best be run, while having fun with homonyms: Almost 20 > years later, has anything really changed? > > In mid-December 2001, Google unveiled its improved Usenet > archives, which now go more than a decade deeper into the Net's > past than did the millions of posts that the company salvaged from > DejaNews. Now on a browser near you: a glimpse of the prehistory > of the Net culture we all take for granted today. The first "me > too" > post! The first "Make-Money-Fast" post! It's enough to make even > a relative newbie nostalgic for a past she never experienced > firsthand. > > The debut of the archive touched off a flurry of chatter among the > geeks on Slashdot, some of whom had been there back in the day. > There were some grumbles. Imagine what it's like to see your > flames from 15 years ago, when Usenet still had the population of > a small town, now searchable by anyone on the Web. > > "Glad I've changed my e-mail address since those long, (best) > forgotten days. It wasn't me, I swear," joked one poster to > Slashdot. Another one griped: "It's like having naked baby pictures > > of yourself stapled to your forehead when you walk around." > (Google vows that at the author's request, they'll delete old > posts; > so if you want to be the Internet equivalent of a rare-book burner, > > go right ahead.) > > Google gets the credit for making these relics of the early Net > accessible to anyone on the Web, bringing the early history of > Usenet to all. Michael Schmidt, 29, a Google software engineer, > spent the last year and a half playing detective, trying to track > down the Internet's lost history: "It was a long and painful > investigative process. I was searching on the Web, calling people. > There were a lot of dead ends." > > But it was the geeky pragmatism and historical foresight of Usenet > old-timers themselves that actually saved the early history of the > newsgroups so that we can all poke around in it today. These > "archive donors," whom Google thanks here, gave their copies of > the millions of messages they'd saved back to the Net. > > The tale of how early Usenet was saved begins with one of the > Net's great old-timers: Henry Spencer. "Henry Spencer is the real > hero, because his contributions are what makes this historic," says > > Schmidt. "Back in the Stone Age of the Internet, he was already > archiving this stuff, and he was the only one doing it." > > Spencer, a legendary Unix hacker -- a species not exactly known > for humility -- is pleasantly understated about his role as > Usenet's > great early archivist. He's the first to point out that he wasn't > really > the only one saving those early messages. But the copies he kept > of Usenet postings from 1981 to 1991 appear to be the only ones > that still exist. "There were several other people who were > archiving stuff, but all of them gave up before we did, and as far > as > I know none of their archiving survived," he says. For instance, > legend has it that two guys at Bell Labs kept back-ups as well, but > > their stores of these ultra-rare posts are nowhere to be found. > > "I'm very glad the stuff is finally out there, and I can stop > worrying > about how the only copy might get lost," Spencer says, now that > Google has assured the preservation of the more than 2 million old > messages he saved. "I'm just glad that this particular great mass > of > data is no longer my worry." > > One of the early adopters of the computer language C, Spencer is > known for his Ten Commandments for C Programmers, as well as > for being the coauthor of C News, one of the early programs for > transferring and reading Usenet messages. > > Now 46 years old, he works as an independent consultant, but > back in 1981 he ran the computer facility at the University of > Toronto's zoology department. While the geeks over in the > university's computer science department were busy with the > Arpanet, the Department of Defense's system was too expensive > for the zoologists. > > "The zoology department may sound like a funny place for > pioneering networking work," says Spencer. "But the computer > science department wasn't very interested in this inferior > networking. It was very low-tech by their standards. But it worked > and theirs didn't. Their opinion changed fast when we started > providing e-mail." > > That's how, in the spring of 1981, with a 300 baud modem, the > zoology department at the University of Toronto became a central > distribution point for Usenet, when the network was just 2 years > old. > > Traffic was almost unimaginably lighter in those days. Only about > 200 people had access to Usenet: "In the first few years, it was at > > least plausible to come in in the morning and read all the Usenet > traffic that had come in, and 15 minutes later be off doing > something useful," remembers Spencer. But even that low level of > traffic was too much for the storage requirements of the day. > "Pretty soon, it was necessary to think about expiring old stuff," > he > says. > > It wasn't a sense of historical importance that initially led > Spencer > to think about creating an archive. His motivation was much more > pragmatic than that: Most of the conversations on Usenet at the > time were very technical, and he was reluctant to see the > information in them disappear, because it might be useful to the > university's geeks: "A lot of the early traffic was about things > like > Unix systems bugs, and it seemed unwise to just throw it out." > > So the archiving began with 40 megabytes filling up a new mag > tape -- each reel one-half inch thick and 10 inches in diameter -- > every few months. In this era, messages from the outside world > came in at the tortoise rate of 300 baud. ("When we got a 1,200 > baud auto-dialing modem, that was just wonderful. Twelve- > hundred baud was just total luxury," Spencer recalls.) As Usenet > grew, this meant that Spencer and his system administrators had > to be selective about which newsgroups they received and > archived, keeping technical conversations but throwing away some > of the more general discussions that generated a lot of traffic. > > "We started dumping stuff that we thought was obviously of no > future use, groups that specialized in a lot of talk and no > substance, so to speak. For example, fairly early on there was a > newsgroup about abortion which specialized in violent arguments." > > That's why not only the very earliest Usenet posts, before Spencer > started archiving in 1981 (Usenet began in 1979) but even some of > the posts in the 1980s are still lost. It's too bad; today, > wouldn't > more of us rather see what was being said about abortion in 1984 > than sift through the arcana of bug fixes in systems that have > probably been long since retired? "It was perfectly reasonable from > > the viewpoint of stuff that we might want to use again, but a > little > sad from today's viewpoint," Spencer admits. > > For 10 years, the nine-track mag tapes piled up, hanging in a huge > rack at the zoology department's computer facility. Finally, in the > > early '90s, with the growth of Usenet outpacing the zoology > department's budget for $15-a-pop tapes, the general archiving > project ended. > > In the spring of 1991, Bruce Jones, then a grad student in the > communications department at the University of California at San > Diego, flew to Ontario at his own expense. He was writing his > Ph.D. dissertation on the history of Usenet and was eager to get > his hands on Spencer's tapes. > > The 141 tapes, most of which held 120 megabytes of posts, now > lived at the University of Western Ontario, thanks to a road trip > in > the middle of the Canadian winter that David Wiseman, the > university's network administrator, had taken earlier that year to > unburden the University of Toronto's zoology department of them. > > Jones would spend the next two weeks rescuing the data off them. > Not only was the tape technology rapidly becoming obsolete -- just > try to find a working tape-reader today -- but the tapes themselves > > do not have anything like a 10-year shelf life. > > By now the historical import of the tapes was already apparent. But > > spending two weeks running tapes through a tape-cleaning > machine and dumping them on disks was the prerequisite to even > looking at them. "Spencer had written a program for removing data > from tapes when the tapes went bad," Jones explains. "I was just > the first person who was willing to invest my time and money -- a > lot of people wanted to see what was on them." In two weeks, > Jones got through the first 105 tapes. > > "Usenet has always been about arguing about itself," Jones says > of the posts that were unearthed. "And the arguments that you see > today are the same arguments that go way back into the early '80s, > and I'm sure that those arguments will continue well into the > future." > > Case in point: the fact that the older parts of the archive are now > > available on Google has given Usenet denizens something new to > argue about. "I've already gotten three letters from people > accusing > me of trying to make money off these archives," Jones observes > wryly. All the "archive donors" gave the posts to Google for > posterity. > > Over the next 10 years, Wiseman got through the remaining three > dozen or so tapes by wangling the time and energies of "bored > graduate students." But by 1995, constrained by university > budgets, the archiving project was running out of disk space. > > So, Brewster Kahle, the creator of the Web's other major archiving > project, the Internet Archive Wayback Machine, chipped in, > donating a then-humongous nine-gigabyte hard drive to the cause. > > In the end, they pulled more than 2,056,000 posts off the 141 > tapes. "It took us 10 years. I got so busy and everybody else got > less interested," says Wiseman, almost sheepishly. More than 2 > million posts: It doesn't sound like a lot compared to the 700 > million > total in Google's archive, but they're the oldest remnants. > > Apparently someone is still interested. Wiseman used FTP to hand > off the files to Google. And just after Google announced the > availability of the archive, some rogue used FTP to grab the whole > archive off the University of Western Ontario's FTP server -- all > three gigs of it transferring in one night. "I have no idea what > they > plan on using it for, since if it's spam e-mail the addresses are > all > wrong," says Wiseman. Now, anyone who wants a full copy will > have to ask politely first -- it's no longer on the server. > > Google filled in the more recent posts not covered by the old > DejaNews archive thanks to J�rgen Christoffel of the German > National Research Center for Information Technology, who'd kept > his own archives in the '90s, and Kent Landfield, a network > security developer and the maintainer of FAQs.org. > > Landfield started archiving with entrepreneurial motives. In 1992 > and 1993, while at Sterling Software in Omaha, Neb., Landfield > had a side project that sold CDs of the Usenet archive. For > $349.95 a year, every month you could get a CD burned with the > content of Usenet. It was an attempt to cater to the user with a > slower modem who still wanted access to every newsgroup. > > "I realized that there was definitely a valuable historical aspect > to > the CDs themselves," says Landfield. "The reality is, everybody > thought that. We're all just a bunch of packrats. We all knew there > > was a value to it, and it was a matter of how and when it would be > used." > > Thanks to these packrats, Google now estimates that 95 percent > of the posts ever made to Usenet are now searchable from the > site. But Spencer, for one, can't help thinking of all that's still > been > lost -- not just of the other 5 percent of Usenet, but also of the > other early history of online communication. > > Think of the Arpanet mailing lists that were the precursors to > Usenet. Spencer points out that while most of the mailing lists > kept > archives, a significant number of them have been lost over time. > "The first flame war, things like that, most certainly dates before > > Usenet," he says. "And I would bet that a lot of that material is > gone, because at some point, nobody thought it was worth saving." > > > Copyright 2002 Salon.com > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From NEWS at synersource.com Thu Jan 24 10:45:28 2002 From: NEWS at synersource.com (Karen Mercer) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:45:28 -0500 Subject: SCN: Tired of toggling between systems to view pertinent patient data? Message-ID: <3B6729BFE3F4D743B1285C8B90B664A6035FB9@synaspnode1.SynASPDomain> SynerSource is your single source for patient data retrieval. Cerner, IDX Sunquest, NextGen.... All can be viewed with the click of a mouse. It's not magic, it's the functionality of the SynerSource HL7 interface engine and ASP solution. To see examples visit our web site at http://www.synersource.com?i=9197 or call 800-843-4811. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Thu Jan 24 13:39:50 2002 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:39:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SeattleWireless.net and Community Wireless Networking Message-ID: <200201242139.NAA06621@scn.org> ---------------------------------------------------------------- -----> please send this to anybody who might be interested... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Special Guest Presentation SeattleWireless.net and Community Wireless Networking Ken Caruso and Matt Westervelt http://SeattleWireless.net/ Saturday, January 26, 2002 11:00AM - 12:30 PM Library 1612 The Evergreen State College Wireless networking technology suggests a variety of intriguing possibilities for community and civic communications. As a special guest presentation for the "Digital City" program at Evergreen, Ken Caruso and Matt Westervelt will give a general overview of the purpose and mission of the SeattleWireless.net project. They will also cover some basics of 802.11b wireless networking technology in addition to describing their social vision. Seattle was recently the site of a recent wireless community networking summit (http://SeattleWireless.net/index.cgi/SummitJanuary2002) which had representatives from major projects. >From the SeattleWireless web page, "SeattleWireless Idea": Wouldn't it be interesting to walk down the street with your 802.11b laptop or PDA and be able to access your home machine? Or the business that you're walking by? Or even the Internet? Of course it would, but that would require expensive hardware and setup costs, and a recurring monthly fee.... right? Actually, it will cost you something, but done correctly it won't cost nearly as much as commercial wireless data services. It will cost some money for the hardware, some of your time, and perhaps a small amount of electricity. SeattleWireless is about providing a place to develop and discuss next-generation community wireless networks. We want to create a wireless network infrastructure that is easy to set up for the end user, has no recurring monthly fees, and is owned and operated by its users (that's you!), not a corporation. This is not an easy undertaking and it will require thought and a good plan. That's why we're here, and that's why this site exists. We use MoinMoin so that everyone can contribute to the ideas, the technology, and the execution of this project. The good news is that we are not alone; other groups in other cities are doing the same thing. We collect links to these groups in our UsefulLinks. A community wireless network can also provide vital services in times of diasasters. Have ideas or suggestions on just how to make something like this work? ------- For more information about this presentation contact Doug Schuler, dschuler at evergreen.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 22:16:34 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:16:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN updates Message-ID: <20020125061634.66348.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> I've updated the SCN home page, to include providing information on how to opt-out of the Quest plan to sell your personal information: You can opt-out easily via one of their web pages. (Thanks Lois) Information on free tax help from students at Seattle University is listed on the home page as well. (Thanks Julia) New site redesign is right around the corner. Info coming shortly. The design ideas look nice. There were 7 styles which we narrowed down to 3. The 3 remaining designs capture the main elements of the original 7. (Thanks Hugh at www.studio30.com) SCN (very) general meeting held at the University Library in the U-District was small and nice: There were a couple of people there to check out what SCN has to offer. Alan, of help desk fame, and I discussed going-ons with SCN these days. Steve G. stopped by to "entertain" everyone with the behind-the-scene snafus and progress being made. Lee, a long-time SCN'er, was there and came on board to be a topic editor and to (hopefully) help with updating SCN's web site once the site is ready to be implemented. Irene, of email training at the STAR Center fame, stopped by to say "Hi." Also, SCN has another new topic editor. He is Jim and has been around SCN for some time. He's now maintaining the Transportation community area. Another meeting is going to be held at the University branch library in February. Details forthcoming. Patrick Fisher Seattle Community Network __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From N.Anderson at idrc.ca Fri Jan 25 09:19:59 2002 From: N.Anderson at idrc.ca (N.Anderson at idrc.ca) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:19:59 -0200 Subject: SCN: Free conference calls! Message-ID: <1012002679.0087906041@blackhole.idrc.ca> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Jan 28 19:42:29 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:42:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: Qwest & Privacy (was RE: your mail) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020129034229.30914.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Jim, Thanks much for the info. I posted it to the SCN home page. Admittedly, I don't follow the local news unless I see it in the NY Times! Patrick Seattle Community Network --- Jim Loring wrote: > We might want to add > http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/55683_phone24.shtml > as apparently Qwest has changed its marketing plans. > > > Also, the Washington State UTC has a questionnaire out that could > be > included, and is attached below. This can also be found in Word > format at > http://www.wutc.wa.gov/webimage.nsf/003e7e1f64b79b36882564b30062ac85/27ef005 > 3e321452f88256b4a006de8a7!OpenDocument > > > Thanks - Jim > design at eskimo.com > > ----- > > > The best thing that can be done at this stage is to encourage as > many people > as possible to fill out our questionnaire. It's more convenient > than public > testimony and will have the same effect. The questionnaire is > available as a > word document on our web page. > > Here are the questions: > > 1. What is your preference for giving approval to the phone > company for the > use of your private information? "Opt-in" (you must give your > permission > before your account information is used) or "opt-out" (your account > information may be used unless you direct otherwise)? > > 2. Should a telephone company inform customers of its policy to > use the > "opt-out" method at the time the customer orders new service? > > 3. As a telephone company customer, is there any account > information you > don't mind the utility sharing with outside firms or marketing > partners > without your prior approval? Please explain. > > 4. Should notices regarding use of customers' private account > information > be included as a bill insert or in a separate mailing? > > 5. How many notices should the phone company send to the customer > if the > utility uses the "opt-out" method before the company can assume the > customer's approval? > > 6. Should the telephone company be required to send "opt-out" > notices to > its customers once a year? > > 7. How would the release of your telephone account information > affect you? > Please describe. > > Questions for Qwest Customers Only > > 8. Did you receive the notice on this topic with your bill that > arrived > between December 10 and January 10? > > 9. Did the statement that accompanied your bill, that was titled, > "The > following information does not impact your Qwest billing" make you > more or > less inclined to read it? Circle your answer or please let us know > what you > thought. > � Read it. > � Skipped it figuring it didn't affect me. > � Other comments: > > 10. Did you try to "opt-out" by contacting the phone company or on > the > website? If so, what was your experience? > > Other comments: > > > Name and Mailing Address: (Please include zip code): > > > Would you like to be on the WUTC mailing list for this topic? > > > >>>>><<<<< > Tim Sweeney > Washington UTC Public Affairs > Visit our website: www.wutc.wa.gov > 360-664-1118 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-webeditors at scn.org [mailto:owner-webeditors at scn.org]On > Behalf Of > Rod Clark > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 2:30 PM > To: Said It; webeditors at scn.org > Cc: webmaster at scn.org > Subject: Re: your mail > > On Fri, 25 Jan 2002, Said It wrote: > > > It'd be great if you linked Quest email on front page -- to > > encourage messages. thanks! > > Adriene, > > I've sent your note to Patrick Fisher, who edits the home > page and who posted the Qwest notice. > > On Qwest's site, I don't see any e-mail addresses for anyone > or any office at Qwest who is responsible for privacy questions > or for regulatory affairs. There is no e-mail contact > information on Qwest's privacy policy page, or on their privacy > opt-out page. > > The e-mail address for the WUTC office that is handling this > issue is privacy at wutc.wa.gov. > > Rod Clark > webeditors at scn.org > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Jan 28 22:00:51 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:00:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: sci/tech community Message-ID: <20020129060051.12946.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, The Sci-Tech community of SCN is in need of a topic editor. In case someone is interested in running that. Patrick Seattle Community Network __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From beth at msn.com Mon Jan 28 22:13:34 2002 From: beth at msn.com (beth at msn.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:13:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: University Girls Experiment 24/7... Message-ID: <000c24b32bca$1647a1e5$1ae20ca8@lswvsp> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Jan 29 11:05:25 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:05:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN@SCN.org mailing list purpose Message-ID: <20020129190525.12092.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Would someone please describe the proper parameters of this list based on the description on it on the SCN mailing list? >From the mailing list page: "scn at scn.org SCN Discussions For general communication among SCN's volunteers." What is "general"? Nothing specific? Please send me EXACT parameters for sending mail to this list. I'm getting tired of being criticized for each and every little time I step outside the box. Thanks, Patrick Seattle Community Network __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Wed Jan 30 08:39:51 2002 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:39:51 -0800 Subject: SCN: FSM Message-ID: <3C57B157.31533.2FEF556@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ================== by Richard Stallman, president, Free Software Foundation (Salon)---In the Free Software Movement, from which "open source" split off in 1998, we believe computer users should have the freedom to change and redistribute the software that they use. Universities should encourage free software for the sake of advancing human knowledge, just as they encourage scientists and scholars to publish their work. Alas, many universities have a grasping and self-serving approach to software. Free software developers have been dealing with this for almost 20 years. When I started developing the GNU operating system in 1984, my first step was to quit my job at MIT. I did this specifically so that the MIT licensing office would be unable to interfere with releasing GNU as free software. The "free" in free software refers to freedom: It means users have the freedom to run, modify and redistribute the software. I had planned an approach for licensing the programs in GNU that ensures that all modified versions must be free software as well, an approach that developed into the GNU General Public License (GNU GPL), and I did not want to have to get approval from MIT before using it. (A modified version of GNU is used on millions of computers, but the users often are not aware of this, because the whole system is widely confused with its kernel program, whose name is "Linux.") Over the years, university affiliates have often come to the Free Software Foundation for advice on how to cope with administrators who see software only as something to sell. One good method, applicable even for specifically funded projects, is to base your work on an existing program that was released under the GNU GPL. Then you can tell the administrators, "We're not allowed to release the modified version except under the GNU GPL -- any other way would be copyright infringement." After the dollar signs fade from their eyes, they will usually consent to releasing it as free software. You can also ask your funding sponsor for help. When a group at NYU developed the GNU Ada Compiler, with funding from the U.S. Air Force, the contract explicitly called for donating the resulting code to the Free Software Foundation. Work out the arrangement with the sponsor first, then politely show the university administration that it is not open to renegotiation. They will most likely go along. Whatever you do, raise the issue early -- certainly before the program is half finished. At this point, the university still needs you, so you can play hardball: Tell the administration you will finish the program, make it usable, if they have agreed in writing to make it free software (and agreed to your choice of free software license). Otherwise you will work on it only enough to write a paper about it, and never make a version good enough to release. When the administrators know their choice is to have a free software package that brings credit to the university or nothing at all, they will usually chose the former. Not all universities have grasping policies. The University of Texas has a policy that, by default, all software developed there is released as free software under the GNU General Public License. By developing faculty support first, you may be able to obtain such a policy at your university. Present the issue as one of principle: Does the university have a mission to advance human knowledge, or does it exist purely for its own survival? To make these methods succeed, it helps to have determination and adopt an ethical perspective, as we do in the Free Software Movement. To treat the public ethically, the software should be free -- as in freedom -- for the public. Make it clear you will not settle for a "balanced" solution of "'free' only in price, restricted to academic use only." If you hold the "open source" view that allowing others to share and change software is just an expedient, a way to make software powerful and reliable, you may find it hard to resist a university administrator's argument that "we could make it even more powerful and reliable with all the money we can get." This may or may not come true in the end, but it is hard to disprove in advance. But when you recognize that free software respects the users' freedom, while non-free software negates it, then making sure your software is free is a matter of defending freedom for all of society. Nothing strengthens your resolve like knowing that the community's freedom depends, in that instance, on you. Copyright 2002 Salon.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steveg at scn.org Wed Jan 30 19:53:19 2002 From: steveg at scn.org (Steve Guest) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:53:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Ken Applegate Message-ID: Dear Friends It is with great sadness that I have to inform you that SCN has lost a great volunteer and friend in Ken Applegate, who died on Tuesday. He was an active SysOp who was always there to help. He was often sending response back to the help desk when they needed more technical assistance. He also worked on teaching when time permitted. This is sudden and unexpected news. Patrick, our WebMaster, has updated the web home page and has invited people to email him with comments and thoughts. He can then post these for others to share. As we find out more about services and other details we will update the web page. Steve =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Steve Guest steveg at scn.org steve at groupworks.org VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network (425) 653 7353 http://www.scn.org/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From P.Spenser at pandore.qc.ca Wed Jan 30 22:13:06 2002 From: P.Spenser at pandore.qc.ca (P.Spenser at pandore.qc.ca) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:13:06 +0800 (CST) Subject: SCN: Guaranteed Return On Your Investment Message-ID: <1012479082.0267148988@mail.pandore.qc.ca> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From NEWS at synersource.com Thu Jan 31 05:32:50 2002 From: NEWS at synersource.com (Karen Mercer) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:32:50 -0500 Subject: SCN: Retrieve Patient Data from a Single Source Message-ID: <3B6729BFE3F4D743B1285C8B90B664A6075449@synaspnode1.SynASPDomain> My name is Karen Mercer, Vice President of Marketing, and I would like to thank you for visiting our web site, www.synersource.com. Hope you had a chance to view some of our multimedia presentations. A demonstration of the patient retrieval system is available by clicking on the link http://www.synersource.com/demo. This presentation contains many illustrations of the data and how it can be viewed on the web. Images, graphs, and text can be displayed giving the physician maximum information from a single source. To request a free trial subscription to a truly interactive internet-based system, contact me at 800-843-4811. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From tlocke at kcts.org Thu Jan 31 11:55:35 2002 From: tlocke at kcts.org (Locke, Ti) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:55:35 -0800 Subject: SCN: testing Message-ID: Hi JJ and all: Back at my desk... It seems that I can send email through SCN somehow...JJ, is there something I need to know/do to get this to work consistently ? ti * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Thu Jan 31 11:56:24 2002 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:56:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: testing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nope - It should work consistently now. We found a configuration option that was broken. -randy On Thu, 31 Jan 2002, Locke, Ti wrote: > Hi JJ and all: > > Back at my desk... > > It seems that I can send email through SCN somehow...JJ, is there something > I need to know/do to get this to work consistently ? > > ti > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * *