Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles Times
patrick
clariun at yahoo.com
Wed Jan 9 08:14:24 PST 2002
Dear "emailer1",
It's nice to know who we are talking to. By 'we' I mean anyone. It's
nice to place a face or a name to a mail or letter or phone message.
If you feel that someone is mean or unkind, the what is your
anonymity to protect you from getting flamed? Either way you are
going to get it.
As email goes, if you mail flame-inducing mail, which could be the
most innocent message, you should know better to put your Teflon
jumpsuit on and take the heat.
Not that anyone is out to get you for your messages, but that is the
fact of life with email.
Anyway, it's nice to know a person's name. It's a basic common
courtesy that human beings expect.
Patrick
--- emailer1 <emailer1 at netzero.net> wrote:
> There are some good thoughts floating around about SCN options.
> This is a
> discussion that should continue. However, a quick item first.
>
> This JJ and Irene are asking for my name. Steve Guest sent me a
> very polite
> private inquiry about the same thing. I politely answered that I
> preferred
> anonymity, for several reasons. One of the reasons is exemplified
> by the
> note below; this JJ can be pretty mean to people. However, the
> main point
> is that discussion should focus on the issues, not on the sender.
>
> Back to the discussion.
>
> Doug suggested a task force to look at the issue of a different ISP
> structure. I concur. I earlier suggested an assessment of the
> costs of a
> self-supporting ISP structure. I think it would have to be an
> independent
> assessment. However, it would be useful if Steve did lay out the
> specifics
> of the estimate he said he did, as a starting point. If presented
> as an
> estimate, it would not be vulnerable to antagonism, as JJ fears.
> Al also
> opined that self funding would be unsuccessful. Many share this
> opinion,
> but these guesses are not a good basis for decision-making.
>
> It was just reported that a network in Snohomish County bit the
> dust.
> However, it was not clear to me that the reasons were applicable to
> SCNA's
> situation.
>
> Does anyone have an idea as to how SCNA could get an objective
> assessment of
> the cost of self funding?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: J. Johnson <jj at scn.org>
> To: emailer1 <emailer1 at netzero.net>
> Cc: patrick <clariun at yahoo.com>; Steve Guest
> <steve at groupworks.org>;
> <scna-board at scn.org>; <scn at scn.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 11:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles
> Times
>
>
> > "A simple e-mail would suffice"?! Hah! You've already gotten the
> "simple"
> > e-mail. And if Steve was to publish a worksheet he'd want to
> check it (so
> > someone doesn't pillory him for an error), maybe even update it,
> and all
> > that would take TIME HE DOESN'T HAVE! Which I know, because
> there are
> > some pretty critical items he hasn't been able to get to yet.
> And I'd
> > rather he wasn't distracted. (Steve: don't do it!)
> >
> > This whole discussion of setting up some kind of chargeable
> service is
> > fools dream, because there are quite sufficient reasons why it
> isn't going
> > to happen any time soon. And it's a waste of everyone's time,
> because the
> > reasons have been explained. If 'emailer1' (whoever he is)
> thinks
> > differently, he is quite free to set up his own service.
> >
> > === JJ
> =============================================================
> >
> > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, emailer1 wrote:
> >
> > > Steve,
> > >
> > > This was a very useful response. You were specific enough to
> move the
> > > discussion forward.
> > >
> > > Could you publish your worksheet that you used to cost out the
> $5-10
> million
> > > figure. (How much for staff, for hardware, for connectivity,
> etc.) A
> > > simple e-mail would suffice.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance. This will add a lot of clarity to the
> discussion.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: patrick <clariun at yahoo.com>
> > > To: Steve Guest <steve at groupworks.org>; <scna-board at scn.org>;
> Marilyn
> Sheck
> > > <Marilyn.Sheck at spl.org>; <steveg at scn.org>
> > > Cc: <douglas at scn.org>; <scn at scn.org>
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 1:51 AM
> > > Subject: Disparity Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles
> Times
> > >
> > >
> > > > Unfortunately, the computer age has created a huge disparity
> between
> > > > the haves and have-nots. The haves having computers and
> internet and
> > > > the havenots having neither.
> > > >
> > > > A computer is fairly easy to come by now, but affordable
> internet
> > > > access is not.
> > > >
> > > > Kids are often assigned homework which includes searching the
> > > > internet for answers. Guess who gets screwed?
> > > >
> > > > And just being in on the loop of things, the internet is
> becoming as
> > > > 'necessary' as the phone. Especially for kids. Economic
> disparity
> > > > leads to social disparity. And less opportunities for those
> with
> > > > disparity.
> > > >
> > > > I would hope that there is someone out there addressing this
> to the
> > > > government, Congress, the IRS.
> > > >
> > > > Patrick
> > > >
> > > > --- Steve Guest <steve at groupworks.org> wrote:
> > > > > Well we could debate this for months. Let me clear up a
> few things
> > > > > first:
> > > > > 1) We are technically an ISP, but since Microsoft started
> putting
> > > > > the connect to the internet icon on its desk top the idea
> of what
> > > > > is an ISP has changed. We are an ISP which does not offer
> direct
> > > > > connection to the Internet, only to a server on the
> Internet. We
> > > > > were and still are a founding member of Washington
> Association of
> > > > > Internet Service Providers (WAISP) which is a lobbying
> group. But
> > > > > due to the failure of most of the local ISPs to either
> survive or
> > > > > not get eaten by the national big fish, WAISP could soon
> die from a
> > > > > lack of membership. So it depends on your definition of an
> ISP.
> > > > > 2) As far as the costs for an ISP - these are well know
> and we
> > > > > have investigated them. If we were to take NWNexos for
> example, it
> > > > > had a budget of several millions when WindStar bought it
> and still
> > > > > it failed to be profitable. There are way too many factors
> to make
> > > > > this a simple calculation. We would also change our
> profile and
> > > > > start to impact others like wolfnet, drizzle and eskimo.
> There are
> > > > > several ISPs open to offers in the area, go look at their
> books if
> > > > > you think this is a viable proposition. From my costings,
> I worked
> > > > > out that we would need about $5-10 Million a year for SCN's
> > > > > operations and service to be "professional", plus a major
> culture
> > > > > shift. Which is way too many $10 customers.
> > > > > 3) I am confused by the 501(c)3 comment. Lobbying is not a
> high
> > > > > priority for SCNA at present. The thing that Eugene did,
> as far as
> > > > > I can see, is that it needed money and decided to do a fee
> for
> > > > > service. They didn't read the small print though. Any fee
> for
> > > > > service is fine if the service is educational, but as a
> connection
> > > > > to the Internet, it is deemed by the IRS to not be
> educational.
> > > > > They currently agree that the service is educational, but
> the
> > > > > connection to the internet is offered by 100s of other
> vendors
> > > > > which are commercial. Therefore this breaks the 501(c)3
> agreement
> > > > > with the IRS. Plus it brings us back to the first point -
> we are a
> > > > > connection to a "service" which is educational and on the
> Internet.
> > > > >
> > > > > Personally, if I thought a for-profit with low cost for
> service
> > > > > would make a profit, I would be doing that rather than
> working for
> > > > > SCN as a volunteer CEO. Plus I think I know where I could
> have
> > > > > gotten a few "staff" that might wish to work for me rather
> than
> > > > > volunteering. So if running a cheap access ISP were
> profitable,
> > > > > then where are they? They came and most went with the
> dot.coms.
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve
> > > > > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
> > > > > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org
> steve at groupworks.org
> > > > > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network
> > > > > (425) 653 7353
> http://www.scn.org/
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: emailer1
> > > > > To: Marilyn Sheck ; scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org
> > > > > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 1:42 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles
> Times
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The key part of Steve Guest's message is the following:
> > > > > ____________________
> > > > > "I do not see SCN being able to commit
> > > > > to supplying free full internet access for our users.
> > > > >
> > > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It
> is
> > > > > initialy an
> > > > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web
> resource for
> > > > > Seattle.
> > > > > We were never in the free ISP business."
> > > > > _____________________
> > > > >
> > > > > The above contains a Catch 22 element. (1) We do not
> have the
> > > > > funds and staff to support a full ISP (including standard
> graphical
> > > > > functions); and (2) we will continue to offer a very
> limited type
> > > > > of service and so we will NEVER attract or bring in the
> funds to
> > > > > support such a full ISP service.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rather than mere speculation, it will be necessary to get
> a
> > > > > proper accounting (indepent) to determine
> > > > > 1. How much funding it would take to operate an
> independent,
> > > > > proper ISP. (Staff and hardware)
> > > > > 2. How many paying subscribers it would take (at
> $10/month) to
> > > > > support such an ISP service. (This price would under cut
> almost
> > > > > all other services.)
> > > > > 3. How many low-income subscriptions could be offered
> for little
> > > > > or no cost under this full ISP scenario.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the answers to 1 and 2 are positive (i.e., it would be
> doable
> > > > > to get enough subscribers to fully fund all aspects of a
> complete
> > > > > ISP service), THEN it would be appropriate to discuss
> abandoning
> > > > > the tax-free status and switch to a for-profit service.
> > > > >
> > > > > By the way, the tax-free status comes at a cost: SCNA
> cannot
> > > > > lobby. SCNA, like Eugene was, is severely limited by the
> IRS as to
> > > > > what low-income services it can offer and as to what
> philosophical
> > > > > stance it can follow actively.
> > > > >
> > > > > The library connection also has similar costs. If SCNA
> actually
> > > > > did become active (read "controversial"), the library could
> no
> > > > > longer provide free connection. As Steve pointed out,
> "(SCN)A is
> > > > > initialy an email and maillist site." The design of the
> > > > > organization is limited by that earlier small mission.
> Keeping the
> > > > > library "sponsorship" and the subsequent tax-free status
> prevent
> > > > > SCNA from being a desireable ISP and from being an
> effective
> > > > > community influence.
> > > > >
> > > > > Until an independent accounting can answer 1, 2, & 3,
> there is no
> > > > > way to describe SCNA's potential or future. It can only
> continue
> > > > > to drift.
> > > > >
> > > > > P.S.
> > > > >
> > > > > About the statement: "We were never in the free ISP
> business."
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, that is exactly what we used to tell everyone
> -- that
> > > > > we WERE a free ISP.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Marilyn Sheck
> > > > > To: scna-board at scn.org ; steveg at scn.org
> > > > > Cc: douglas at scn.org ; scn at scn.org
> > > > > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 1:53 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in Los Angeles
> Times
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well said, Steve. And, YES, you are right about the
> library
> > > > > not being able
> > > > > to sustain your internet feed if your traffic
> increased. We
> > > > > are already having
> > > > > trouble with our bandwidth just with SCN in its present
> form
> > > > > combined with
> > > > > our own services. We would not be able to use public
> funds,
> > > > > which is what
> > > > > we pay for the Internet connection with, to support
> SCN's
> > > > > connection if it
> > > > > is more than a small fraction of our overall bandwidth
> usage.
> > > > >
> > > > > >>> steveg at scn.org 12/21/01 01:08PM >>>
> > > > > Hi
> > > > > Well first off we do have free dialup service. On the
> other
> > > > > hand, this is
> > > > > basic command style access and not FREE Internet
> access. I
> > > > > agree it would
> > > > > be great to offer such services, but we have address
> some
> > > > > important issues
> > > > > first.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me try and explain why we do not have free internet
> access.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) If we were to offer free unrestricted connections to
> the
> > > > > Internet via
> > > > > our free dial service and our SPL donated connection to
> the
> > > > > Internet, then
> > > > > the traffic which SCN uses would jump considerably.
> This would
> > > > > be
> > > > > followed by the lose of our donated Internet feed,
> because
> > > > > currently I
> > > > > have been led to believe that the Library would not be
> able to
> > > > > justify the
> > > > > cost of the service. This would mean that we would
> have to
> > > > > provide our
> > > > > own Internet feed. At this point we raise the need
> then to be
> > > > > in the
> > > > > Library because we are then simply taking up their
> limited
> > > > > space. So if
> > > > > this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the
> phone
> > > > > lines, the
> > > > > Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location.
> We do
> > > > > not have the
> > > > > budget for this and we would be out of funds within
> months or
> > > > > weeks.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as
> indicated
> > > > > that
> > > > > Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of
> worms.
> > > > > First lets
> > > > > point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a
> whole
> > > > > different set of
> > > > > rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS. They are
> already
> > > > > looking at
> > > > > FreeNets because our "charitable" status is based on
> the
> > > > > educational value
> > > > > of the service. As soon as we set up a competing
> service with
> > > > > a
> > > > > commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for service
> - in an
> > > > > area which
> > > > > is not directly education then we fall outside the
> charitable
> > > > > status.
> > > > > Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what happened
> or is
> > > > > happening to
> > > > > Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a commercial company
> to sell
> > > > > their fee
> > > > > for service IP connections and break away from the
> educational
> > > > > section.
> > > > > Again something that would put us at odds with the
> Library and
> > > > > its
> > > > > donation to us.
> > > > >
> > > > > The IRS are still sniping and they have not yet gotten
> to SCN,
> > > > > but we are
> > > > > in their sights. We have to be careful and stay legal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Until we can figure out the IRS's view of this,
> understand the
> > > > > Library's
> > > > > view, have the funds and staff to support this and the
> software
> > > > > to ensure
> > > > > that we can guard against misuse - I do not see SCN
> being able
> > > > > to commit
> > > > > to supplying free full internet access for our users.
> > > > >
> > > > > Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to offer. It
> is
> > > > > initialy an
> > > > > email and maillist site which grew into a major web
> resource
> > > > > for Seattle.
> > > > > We were never in the free ISP business.
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say
> we
> > > > > cannot discuss
> > > > > these points, but we need to ensure that we can support
> our
> > > > > current
> > > > > services before we branch into others.
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve
> > > > > =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
> > > > > Steve Guest steveg at scn.org
> steve at groupworks.org
> > > > > VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community Network
> > > > > (425) 653 7353
> > > > > http://www.scn.org/
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, patrick wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up service.
> Victoria
> > > > > freenet
> > > > > > has regular dial-up service for $104 a year, which is
> a great
> > > > > deal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Few people use Lynx and after they have used Hotmail
> or some
> > > > > other
> > > > > > web-based service to check their mail, after they
> have surfed
> > > > > the net
> > > > > > to check on items on eBay, etc., one would find it
> hard to go
> > > > > to a
> > > > > > clunky Lynx browswer to surf the web.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Patrick
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- Doug Schuler <douglas at scn.org> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A good article entitled "Freenets Getting a New
> Lease on
> > > > > Life" is
> > > > > > > in today's Los Angeles Times.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadline
> > > s%2Dtechnology
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -- Doug
> > > > > > >
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