From bm231 at scn.org Sat Mar 2 17:29:51 2002 From: bm231 at scn.org (Mario Rancic) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:29:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Please, Message-ID: <200203030129.RAA28781@scn.org> I want to eask who is resposibile for not write my message and, try to corekt my speling ok.And if you doo than is it bether sto it ok. tkank you * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Mar 3 10:33:37 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:33:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN for March 2002 Message-ID: <20020303183337.64041.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I've updated the SCN home page for March 2002. I've written a column my first column for SCN called, "Notes from the Webmaster". The link is announced on the SCN home page (http://www.scn.org). This will be an ongoing column to keep people informed of what is going on at SCN. Also, some SCN web pages are being updated. Mention of this is made in my notes column. I've added Jean Buskin's Peace and Justice Events calendar to SCN's home page navigation bar. Featured SCN hosted sites has been updated for the month. If you notice anything amiss in the updates, please let me know. Thanks, Patrick Fisher ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball http://sports.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Mon Mar 4 00:22:03 2002 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:22:03 -0800 Subject: SCN: Net politics Message-ID: <3C82BE2B.9443.A753163@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ==================== (Thomas E. Weber, Wall Street Journal)---Only a few years ago, politicians and regulators at least paid lip service to the idea that government should stay out of the Internet as much as possible. So why is everyone in Washington clamoring to meddle in the online world now? At the Federal Communications Commission, a new proposal would make it easier for the Bells to dominate high-speed Internet service. In Congress, the controversial Tauzin-Dingell bill seeks to accomplish the same thing. Meanwhile, over at the Copyright Office, they're mulling a plan that could kill the fledgling Internet radio industry. And if Sen. Fritz Hollings has his way, the personal computers of the future will be designed to congressional specifications. Nothing escapes government entanglement, of course. But this current flurry of activity is especially troubling for two reasons. First, technology is complicated, which makes these issues easy to get wrong. Second, all of the measures directly affect consumers -- yet consumers seem to have very little voice in these debates. That's most apparent in the Bells' battle. It's a lobbying carnival pitting the local phone monopolies against giant long-distance providers. At issue is a provision of the landmark 1996 Telecommunications Act that barred the Bells from offering high- speed data services -- i.e., the Net -- unless they granted rivals access to consumers' phone lines. Tauzin-Dingell would lift that restriction, allowing the Bells to further monopolize your phone line when it comes to DSL. Though the measure passed the House last week, it isn't likely to survive a Senate vote. Yet on Feb. 15, the FCC proposed a regulatory change that could do the same thing. It's all too easy for the Bells' allies to position these moves as free- market actions -- the opposite of government interference. But where a regulated monopoly is concerned, things just aren't that simple. You can't turn back the clock on decades of oversight. Any change in the status quo ultimately represents meddling. So what's behind Washington's new hands-on attitude? The recession, and the hope that high tech can reignite the U.S. economy. That has granted political cover to anyone who wants to interfere with the Net's evolution. "You can do anything you want in Washington right now as long as you say you're promoting broadband deployment," says Dave Baker, vice president for law and public policy at EarthLink Inc., an Internet-service provider that opposes Tauzin-Dingell and the FCC proposal. Tauzin-Dingell backers would have us believe that loosening the Bells' leash will spur them to invest, bringing a brave new era of broadband to consumers. Forget for a moment that many consumers who could get high-speed Net access have opted against it. More power to the Bells will plunge consumers further into an Internet duopoly, where their choices for broadband are limited to the phone company or the cable company. Gerald Faulhaber, a former FCC chief economist who teaches at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School, supports freeing up the Bells -- but not for the reasons embodied in all the Beltway rhetoric. He argues persuasively that the Bells have already succeeded in destroying DSL competition by hindering rivals that wanted to use the Bells' lines. It's time to move on, he says, and focus on removing obstacles to cable and phone alternatives like wireless broadband. In the long run, that could give consumers choice and lower prices. But in the near term? Make no mistake: We're in for higher prices and mediocre service, courtesy of the cable-phone duopoly. "In essence, we're still stuck with these guys," Prof. Faulhaber says. Even as politicians and regulators profess their passion for broadband, they're busy attacking applications that could increase demand for high-speed Net access. The Copyright Office is considering an arbitration panel's report that would determine royalties for songs streamed to listeners online -- and penalize the independent Web broadcasters that give music fans an alternative to broadcast stations' endless top-40 fare and inane DJ blather. Traditional broadcasters -- radio stations that also stream their signals over the Internet -- would pay record companies a royalty of 0.07 cent for every song played, multiplied by the number of listeners. Web-only broadcasters would pay twice that. At Live365.com, which streams broadcasts by hundreds of Web DJs, the proposal is a huge blow. The company favors compensating artists but wants rates that won't destroy the Web radio movement before it has a chance to grow. If you want to weigh in, e-mail the Copyright Office at copyinfo at loc.gov. While your computer is fired up, you may want to visit the Web site of Sen. Hollings (hollings.senate.gov) to ask why he thinks the government can design computers better than IBM or Apple. At a hearing last week, the South Carolina senator pressed his notion that computer makers should be required to build copy-protection technology into all PCs, lest Hollywood find itself Napsterized. This is such a bad idea that it's scary. For more than two decades, the personal computer has been the technological Swiss Army Knife, a tool that lets giant companies and individual programmers alike invent new ideas and the occasional new industry. Sen. Hollings's approach eloquently defends the interests of movie studios. But, like all of the high-tech meddling going on in Washington these days, it is silent on the needs of consumers. Copyright 2002 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Mon Mar 4 19:25:48 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:25:48 -0800 Subject: SCN: Fw: Sharon: the number of Palestinian casualties should be increased Message-ID: <006a01c1c3fa$c33427a0$7152fea9@desktop> ----- Original Message ----- From: Gush Shalom To: List Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 2:02 PM Subject: Sharon: the number of Palestinian casualties should be increased > GUSH SHALOM - pob 3322, Tel-Aviv 61033 - http://www.gush-shalom.org/ > > Press release > > On the Israeli prime time First Channel TV news Sharon was quoted as saying that the > number of Palestinian casualties should be increased. He was also shown speaking to the > Knesset: "We first have to give the Palestinians a very heavy blow, before we can talk > peace." > > The number of killings seems to have become the measure in this ever more brutal > confrontation between occupier and occupied. The killing of seventeen Palestinians in one > day - among them a mother and her three young children and a doctor in an ambulance - > seems to have given our army and our government the feeling that they are restoring their > image. > > When will the world see that the democratically elected Prime Minister of Israel is not just > a hardliner but is manifestly crossing the red line of legitimacy? > > For more information: Adam Keller, Gush Shalom spokesperson > ph: +972-(0)3-5565804 / +972-(0)56-709603 / +972-(0)56-709604 > > > ---- > NB: Full transcript of the war crimes panel available on the Gush site > For Hebrew http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/forum.html > For English http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/forum_eng.html > French available at request. > > > Also on the site: > the weekly Gush Shalom ad - in Hebrew and English > the columns of Uri Avnery - in Hebrew, Arab and English > (and a lot more) > http://www.gush-shalom.org > > If you got this forwarded, and would like to receive our emails directly you > can subscribe by sending a blank message (from the address where you > want to receive them) to: > Gush-Shalom-subscribe at topica.com > In order to receive Hebrew [not always same as English] mail to: > test_gush-shalom.org-subscribe at topica.com > > If you want to support Gush Shalom's activities you can send a cheque or > cash, wrapped well in an extra piece of paper, to: > > Gush Shalom pob 3322, Tel-Aviv 61033 > > (Please, add your email address where to send our confirmation of receipt. > More official receipts at request only.) > > > For more about Gush Shalom you are invited to visit our renewed website: > http://www.gush-shalom.org/ > > SUBSCRIBE YOURSELF: > mail (don't use reply) to Gush-Shalom-subscribe at topica.com > > ==^================================================================ > This email was sent to: emailer1 at netzero.net > > EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a84AlJ.a95cMQ > Or send an email to: Gush-Shalom-unsubscribe at topica.com > > T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! > http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register > ==^================================================================ > > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Mon Mar 4 19:35:51 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:35:51 -0800 Subject: SCN: Fw: Clean Energy Policy from UCS Message-ID: <006d01c1c3fa$d27e08c0$7152fea9@desktop> > > -----Original Message----- > From: Union of Concerned Scientists > To: kly at inebraska.com > Date: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:16 PM > Subject: Clean Energy Policy from UCS > > > >Dear UCS Supporter, > > > >The future of our nation's energy policy has been the source of much > >discussion in the media and in Washington in recent months. > >Decisions being made soon in Washington about what steps the U.S. > >will take to meet our future energy needs will have a large impact on > >the health of our planet and the security of our nation. The Union > >of Concerned Scientists has been deeply engaged in this debate. > > > >In the past six months, UCS has released a number of groundbreaking > >reports to help inform policymakers, the media and the public on this > >critical topic. As a generous supporter of our work, we thought you > >might be interested in this information. Below are brief > >descriptions of each publication along with a link to our website > >where you can download part or all of the report for more > >information. Your support makes this work possible. Thank you. > > > >CLEAN ENERGY BLUEPRINT: A Smarter National Energy Policy for Today > >and the Future-- This report analyzes the costs and benefits of a > >suite of policies to increase energy efficiency and the use of > >renewable energy sources. It demonstrates that America can develop a > >diverse, sustainable, and clean, domestic energy supply that will > >meet our needs, save consumers money, create jobs and improve our > >environment. http://www.ucsusa.org/energy/blueprint.html > > > >ENERGY SECURITY: Solutions to Protect America's Power Supply and > >Reduce Oil Dependence--The nation's exposed energy infrastructure and > >growing oil dependence present significant security risks to our > >citizens and economy, warns this report. Renewable energy sources > >like wind, solar and geothermal do not carry the catastrophic > >implications of attacks on nuclear plants, large centralized fossil > >fuel plants, and pipelines. UCS calls on Washington to implement > >policies that will deliver a safer, cheaper and cleaner future. > >http://www.ucsusa.org/releases/02-01-02.html > > > >RENEWING WHERE WE LIVE: What a National Renewable Energy > >Standard Means for Your Region--In this report, we examine the costs > >and benefits to four regions of the U.S. of a national policy called > >the Renewable Energy Standard (or Renewable Portfolio Standard). This > >national standard requires electricity suppliers to gradually > >increase renewable energy (except for hydropower) from about 2% of > >total electricity use today to 20% by 2020. We found that nationally, > >the renewable energy standard would bring us a cleaner, more secure > >energy system without increasing overall consumer energy costs. > >http://www.ucsusa.org/energy/renewhere.html > > > >Due to the urgency of this issue, you may be receiving > >another email soon from UCS asking you to contact your U.S. Senator > >to express support for clean energy legislation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >You received this message because kly at inetnebr.com is > >a member of the mailing list originating from > >donors at ucsaction.org. To unsubscribe from this mailing list > >originating from donors at ucsaction.org, send an email to > >donors at ucsaction.org from kly at inetnebr.com with the > >word "remove" in the subject line. > >++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Mon Mar 4 19:34:15 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:34:15 -0800 Subject: SCN: Fw: Act now to protect your civil liberties Message-ID: <006c01c1c3fa$cf6aae40$7152fea9@desktop> In addition to a timely message about Washington state legislation, there is good contact information for contacting representatives. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Miller To: mailto:Undisclosed-Recipient:@scn.org Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 5:53 PM Subject: Act now to protect your civil liberties Friends, Sen. Adam Kline is leading the charge against the "anti-terrorism" bills which threaten our civil liberties. He could use some help. His letter below gives the details. If you've got time, we need people to come into the Peace & Justice office (5828 Roosevelt Way NE) to phone people who don't have email, to get them to contact their legislators. Call me to set up a time, Fred Miller 206 527-8050 I need a little help here in getting the word out to civil libertarians across the state. I need your help killing the wiretapping bill, HB 2416, and the broader House bill on Terrorism, HB 2879. Well, I killed them in the Senate, but the committee in the House is trying to resurrect them. I’d much appreciate it if you would let your legislators (and anyone else on your e-mail address book) know of this. Please circulate this request if you would like. If you don’t have your two Representatives’ e-mail addresses, here’s the formula: the first eight letters of the last name, then an underscore, then the first two letters of the first name, then @leg.wa.gov. So, Rep. Frank Chopp is chopp_fr at leg.wa.gov. (Send him a cc; he is the Speaker of the House! You can also look up your legislative district and your legislators through the Legislature’s home page, www.leg.wa.gov. The Legislature also has a toll-free Legislative Hotline where you can leave messages. The phone number is 1-800-562-6000. Just ask them to vote NO on the terrorism bill now before them, SB 6704, for whatever reasons motivated you to ask me – the text of SB 6704 was stripped and replaced by both HB 2416 and HB 2879. No need for any long explanation; these folks are busy. But if you are into details, here is what happened: there were four bills in the Senate, and four in the House. In subject matter, and in their approach to civil liberties, they vary widely. The Governor and Attorney General had a proposal which would create a new offense, Terrorism, in two degrees of seriousness. This proposal was used in the House, and appeared as HB 2879. It criminalizes "an act" committed with terroristic intent. The "intent" is well-defined, but what’s "an act"? Asked by the Governor to file it in the Senate, I did so as a courtesy traditionally done by a Committee Chair. It is now SB 6731, but has not been advanced from the Judiciary Committee, and is not in play now. Instead of using Governor Locke’s proposal even as a starting point, I gathered a bi-partisan group of Judiciary members with a particular commitment to civil liberties. Together, and starting from scratch, we wrote our own bill, now SB 6704. We purposely did not create any new offense of Terrorism, but limited the offense to existing crimes, already defined by law. Rather, we drafted a narrow definition of "terrorist intent," and simply applied to it an enhanced sentence. This approach makes the least change to existing law, while accomplishing the purpose of defining and appropriately punishing criminal acts intended to coerce or intimidate the population at large. In writing SB 6704, we were particularly aware of the need to respect the civil liberties of Washington citizens and all residents within our borders. There is no change to court procedures or the rules of evidence, and no authorization for arrest without a warrant. In fact, there is no change whatsoever in any of our customary statutory protections for civil liberties. I believe that we have succeeded in identifying the threat of terrorist acts with realism, and that we have avoided the rampant flag-waving that has clouded opinion on both sides of the aisle. I was also painfully aware that the House proceeded in the opposite direction. Their bill on terrorist crimes, HB 2879, created the new offense of Terrorism in two degrees, with less narrowly-drawn definitions. Further, the House had a bill, HB 2416, which expanded the authorization for wiretapping – something we purposely avoided. I let the House leadership know that any House bill that looked, felt, or smelled like Wiretapping would be dead-on-arrival in the Senate because as Chair of Senate Judiciary, I would kill the bill myself. As it turned out, the House passed both of these bills, and I used the power of the Chairman to kill them both. Because the prime sponsor of both House bills, Representative Chris Hurst, had given the courtesy of a hearing to SB 6704, I did the same for HB 2879. However, I called neither House bill for a vote before the deadline, Thursday, February 28, and so both died. On the previous day, the House Committee on Community Security had stripped the text of SB 6704, and had substituted the entire texts of both HB 2879 and HB 2416 as a "striking amendment" to our bill. The bill now goes to the House floor for a vote. I am appalled that the bill, still numbered SB 6704 – and still carrying my name as prime sponsor – now expands wiretapping in our state. The bill will have to come back to the Senate. I plan to move that the Senate not concur in the House amendment, and further (to quote the parliamentary language) "that the Senate insist on its position and ask that the House recede." I’m confident that I have the votes, since SB 6704 passed the Senate only a few weeks ago by a vote of 42 to 7. (Just to be sure, I’m counting the votes again!) I urge you to read these bills yourself, and compare them. I hope you will not lump all of these efforts together, nor assume that they are proposed only for the purpose of flag-waving. Beyond the rhetoric, there are in fact increased threats of terrorist attacks. (Think of the photos of the Space Needle and the Seattle skyline found in a cave in Afghanistan.) We must address those threats with a clear eye. Thanks for letting me know your thinking on this issue. Yours truly, Senator Adam Kline 37th Legislative District AK:sl _________________________________ From emailer1 at netzero.net Mon Mar 4 19:41:58 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:41:58 -0800 Subject: SCN: Fw: [Fwd: lifetimetv.com/health/breast_mastectomy_pledge.html] Message-ID: <006f01c1c3fa$e045ddc0$7152fea9@desktop> > -----Original Message----- > From: Carolyn Hall > Date: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:06 PM > Subject: [Fwd: lifetimetv.com/health/breast_mastectomy_pledge.html] > Subject: Breast Cancer Patient Protection Act This only takes a minute, so please vote!! There's a bill called the Breast Cancer Patient Protection Act which will require insurance companies to cover a minimum 48-hour hospital stay or patients undergoing a mastectomy. It's about eliminating the "drive-through mastectomy" where women are forced to go home hours after surgery against the wishes of their doctor, still groggy from anesthesia and sometimes with drainage tubes still attached. Lifetime Television has put this bill on their web page with a petition drive to show your support. Last year over half the House signed on. Please sign the petition by clicking on the web site below and help women living with breast cancer get the care they need and deserve! There is no cost or monetary pledge involved. http://www.lifetimetv.com/health/breast_mastectomy_pledge.html PS: PLEASE PASS THIS ON -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Slkg at aol.com Subject: lifetimetv.com/health/breast_mastectomy_pledge.html Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:40:52 EST Size: 4985 URL: From jmabel at speakeasy.org Tue Mar 5 08:33:14 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 08:33:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: <20020227191105.36792.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the "democratic technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down badly. Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and consider whether it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a logo 3-5 different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. Major graphic elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, text might not be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve readability. In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through email, can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central place people can look at the possibiities? That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic here: Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can contribute to, this seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not put a new logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not like > about the logos. > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > something out. > > Thank you, > Patrick > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > http://greetings.yahoo.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Mar 5 09:39:05 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:39:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020305173905.27854.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Joe, Thanks for the comments. The logo issue is out of my hands, as far as I know. There will be a different slogan. I think it is: Powering Our Communities with Technology. It would be nice, as you say, to have different variations of the logos for different uses. I will put the PDF up on a web page. I will have to take a screen sshot and past it as an image, though. Thanks! Patrick --- Joe Mabel wrote: > Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the "democratic > technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down badly. > Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and consider whether > it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. > > One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a logo 3-5 > different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. Major graphic > elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, text might not > be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve readability. > > In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through email, > can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central place > people can look at the possibiities? > > That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic here: > Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can contribute to, this > seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not put a new > logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not like > > about the logos. > > > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > > something out. > > > > Thank you, > > Patrick > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Mar 5 09:37:06 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:37:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: <20020305173905.27854.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't like the logo change idea and I don't like the slogan change idea. "Democratic Technology for all" is more inclusive and broad. "Powering our communities with technology" is technocratic. I would think that we'd rather put the emphasis on DEMOCRACY not on TECHNOLOGY. Can somebody remind me why this is happening? -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * ****************************************************************** On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > Joe, > > Thanks for the comments. The logo issue is out of my hands, as far as I know. > > There will be a different slogan. I think it is: Powering Our Communities with > Technology. > > It would be nice, as you say, to have different variations of the logos for > different uses. > > I will put the PDF up on a web page. I will have to take a screen sshot and past it > as an image, though. > > Thanks! > Patrick > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the "democratic > > technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down badly. > > Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and consider whether > > it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. > > > > One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a logo 3-5 > > different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. Major graphic > > elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, text might not > > be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve readability. > > > > In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through email, > > can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central place > > people can look at the possibiities? > > > > That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic here: > > Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can contribute to, this > > seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not put a new > > logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. > > > > -------------------- > > Joe Mabel > > > > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > > > > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not like > > > about the logos. > > > > > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > > > > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > > > something out. > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Patrick > > > > > > ===== > > > Webmaster > > > Seattle Community Network > > > http://www.scn.org > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Mar 5 10:00:10 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:00:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020305180010.51515.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, Like I said this is out of my hands and I do not know what is going on with this, either the logo or the slogan. Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > I don't like the logo change idea and I don't like the > slogan change idea. > > "Democratic Technology for all" is more inclusive and broad. > > "Powering our communities with technology" is technocratic. > > I would think that we'd rather put the emphasis on DEMOCRACY > not on TECHNOLOGY. > > Can somebody remind me why this is happening? > > -- Doug > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > Joe, > > > > Thanks for the comments. The logo issue is out of my hands, as far as I know. > > > > There will be a different slogan. I think it is: Powering Our Communities with > > Technology. > > > > It would be nice, as you say, to have different variations of the logos for > > different uses. > > > > I will put the PDF up on a web page. I will have to take a screen sshot and past > it > > as an image, though. > > > > Thanks! > > Patrick > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the "democratic > > > technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down badly. > > > Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and consider > whether > > > it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. > > > > > > One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a logo 3-5 > > > different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. Major > graphic > > > elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, text might > not > > > be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve readability. > > > > > > In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through email, > > > can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central place > > > people can look at the possibiities? > > > > > > That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic here: > > > Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can contribute to, > this > > > seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not put a new > > > logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. > > > > > > -------------------- > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > > > > > > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not like > > > > about the logos. > > > > > > > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > > > > something out. > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > Webmaster > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Mar 5 10:33:01 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:33:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020305183301.33467.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, I don't know. I have found the word "democratic" to be too broad, flaky, and misused so much that it has little meaning to me. It's like that stupid word "Freedom". Not sure what that means anymore... I think "Powering Our Communities with Technology" is right on the money and I think it sounds pretty cool. Especially in light of the fact that yesterday's NY Times has a cool article on the Wi-Fi networks going up in Manhattan, SF and elsewhere. Now, THERE is powering your communities with technology! Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > I don't like the logo change idea and I don't like the > slogan change idea. > > "Democratic Technology for all" is more inclusive and broad. > > "Powering our communities with technology" is technocratic. > > I would think that we'd rather put the emphasis on DEMOCRACY > not on TECHNOLOGY. > > Can somebody remind me why this is happening? > > -- Doug > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > Joe, > > > > Thanks for the comments. The logo issue is out of my hands, as far as I know. > > > > There will be a different slogan. I think it is: Powering Our Communities with > > Technology. > > > > It would be nice, as you say, to have different variations of the logos for > > different uses. > > > > I will put the PDF up on a web page. I will have to take a screen sshot and past > it > > as an image, though. > > > > Thanks! > > Patrick > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the "democratic > > > technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down badly. > > > Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and consider > whether > > > it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. > > > > > > One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a logo 3-5 > > > different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. Major > graphic > > > elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, text might > not > > > be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve readability. > > > > > > In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through email, > > > can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central place > > > people can look at the possibiities? > > > > > > That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic here: > > > Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can contribute to, > this > > > seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not put a new > > > logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. > > > > > > -------------------- > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > > > > > > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not like > > > > about the logos. > > > > > > > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > > > > something out. > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > Webmaster > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Mar 5 14:06:39 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:06:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: <20020305180010.51515.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Patrick, for keeping us informed on these issues. If it's out of your hands whose hands is it in? I'm not trying to be flippant. Is it our board? A commmittee? I've been curious all along how this has come to pass but I've never really known. I confess that I thought you were one of the people behind this because you were the only one who has been communicating to us on this issue. -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * ****************************************************************** On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > Doug, > > Like I said this is out of my hands and I do not know what is going on > with this, either the logo or the slogan. > > Patrick > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > I don't like the logo change idea and I don't like the > > slogan change idea. > > > > "Democratic Technology for all" is more inclusive and broad. > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" is technocratic. > > > > I would think that we'd rather put the emphasis on DEMOCRACY > > not on TECHNOLOGY. > > > > Can somebody remind me why this is happening? > > > > -- Doug > > > > ****************************************************************** > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > * is being shaped today. * > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. The logo issue is out of my hands, as far as I know. > > > > > > There will be a different slogan. I think it is: Powering Our Communities with > > > Technology. > > > > > > It would be nice, as you say, to have different variations of the logos for > > > different uses. > > > > > > I will put the PDF up on a web page. I will have to take a screen sshot and past > > it > > > as an image, though. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the "democratic > > > > technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down badly. > > > > Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and consider > > whether > > > > it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. > > > > > > > > One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a logo 3-5 > > > > different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. Major > > graphic > > > > elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, text might > > not > > > > be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve readability. > > > > > > > > In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through email, > > > > can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central place > > > > people can look at the possibiities? > > > > > > > > That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic here: > > > > Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can contribute to, > > this > > > > seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not put a new > > > > logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > > > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > > > > > > > > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not like > > > > > about the logos. > > > > > > > > > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > > > > > something out. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > Webmaster > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > Webmaster > > > Seattle Community Network > > > http://www.scn.org > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Mar 5 14:18:23 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:18:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: <20020305183301.33467.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I shudder to think about our society when one can't use the word "democracy" in a meaningful way. Yes, people have marketed "technology" very heavily so that it sounds very cool. I'm more interested in REAL democracy than I am in cool technology. -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * ****************************************************************** On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > Doug, > > I don't know. I have found the word "democratic" to be too broad, > flaky, and misused so much that it has little meaning to me. It's like > that stupid word "Freedom". Not sure what that means anymore... > > I think "Powering Our Communities with Technology" is right on the > money and I think it sounds pretty cool. > > Especially in light of the fact that yesterday's NY Times has a cool > article on the Wi-Fi networks going up in Manhattan, SF and elsewhere. > Now, THERE is powering your communities with technology! > > Patrick > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > I don't like the logo change idea and I don't like the > > slogan change idea. > > > > "Democratic Technology for all" is more inclusive and broad. > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" is technocratic. > > > > I would think that we'd rather put the emphasis on DEMOCRACY > > not on TECHNOLOGY. > > > > Can somebody remind me why this is happening? > > > > -- Doug > > > > ****************************************************************** > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > * is being shaped today. * > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. The logo issue is out of my hands, as far as I know. > > > > > > There will be a different slogan. I think it is: Powering Our Communities with > > > Technology. > > > > > > It would be nice, as you say, to have different variations of the logos for > > > different uses. > > > > > > I will put the PDF up on a web page. I will have to take a screen sshot and past > > it > > > as an image, though. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the "democratic > > > > technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down badly. > > > > Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and consider > > whether > > > > it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. > > > > > > > > One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a logo 3-5 > > > > different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. Major > > graphic > > > > elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, text might > > not > > > > be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve readability. > > > > > > > > In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through email, > > > > can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central place > > > > people can look at the possibiities? > > > > > > > > That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic here: > > > > Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can contribute to, > > this > > > > seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not put a new > > > > logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > > > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > > > > > > > > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not like > > > > > about the logos. > > > > > > > > > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > > > > > something out. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > Webmaster > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > Webmaster > > > Seattle Community Network > > > http://www.scn.org > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Mar 5 14:56:04 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:56:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020305225604.22544.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, I've asked about the next step. I do know that the web design and logo are going to the board this month. That is all I know. I did a write-up about what has been going on at SCN lately. You can reach it via the homepage and I will update it monthly, I suppose. For all intent and purposes, I have told you all I know. Maybe not the nitty-gritty, but the information is there. I may have left something out, however it is more due to me not being complete enough. I try to remember everything, in this fluid state we live in. Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > Thanks, Patrick, for keeping us informed on these issues. > If it's out of your hands whose hands is it in? I'm not > trying to be flippant. Is it our board? A commmittee? > I've been curious all along how this has come to pass but > I've never really known. I confess that I thought you > were one of the people behind this because you were the > only one who has been communicating to us on this issue. > > -- Doug > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > Doug, > > > > Like I said this is out of my hands and I do not know what is going on > > with this, either the logo or the slogan. > > > > Patrick > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > I don't like the logo change idea and I don't like the > > > slogan change idea. > > > > > > "Democratic Technology for all" is more inclusive and broad. > > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" is technocratic. > > > > > > I would think that we'd rather put the emphasis on DEMOCRACY > > > not on TECHNOLOGY. > > > > > > Can somebody remind me why this is happening? > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > > * is being shaped today. * > > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. The logo issue is out of my hands, as far as I > know. > > > > > > > > There will be a different slogan. I think it is: Powering Our Communities > with > > > > Technology. > > > > > > > > It would be nice, as you say, to have different variations of the logos for > > > > different uses. > > > > > > > > I will put the PDF up on a web page. I will have to take a screen sshot and > past > > > it > > > > as an image, though. > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > > Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the "democratic > > > > > > technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down badly. > > > > > > Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and consider > > > whether > > > > > it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. > > > > > > > > > > One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a logo 3-5 > > > > > > different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. Major > > > graphic > > > > > elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, text > might > > > not > > > > > be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve readability. > > > > > > > > > > In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through > email, > > > > > can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central place > > > > > > people can look at the possibiities? > > > > > > > > > > That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic > here: > > > > > Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can contribute to, > > > this > > > > > seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not put a > new > > > > > logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not like > > > > > > about the logos. > > > > > > > > > > > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > > > > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > > > > > > something out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > > Webmaster > > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > > > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > Webmaster > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Tue Mar 5 19:06:34 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:06:34 -0800 Subject: SCN: Fw: Axis nonsense Message-ID: <000101c1c4c2$22ec5e20$7152fea9@desktop> > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the "Axis of Evil," Libya, > > China, and Syria today announced they had formed the "Axis of Just as > > Evil," > > which they said would be far more evil than the Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis > > > > President Bush warned of in his State of the Union address. Diplomats > > from > > Syria denied they were jealous over being excluded, although they conceded > > > > they did ask if they could join the Axis of Evil. "They told us it was > > full," > > said Syrian President Hafez Assad. > > > > "An Axis can't have more than three countries," explained Iraqi President > > Saddam Hussein. "This is not my rule, it's tradition. In World War II you > > had > > Germany, Italy, and Japan in the evil Axis. So you can only have three. > > And a secret handshake. " > > > > THE AXIS PANDEMIC > > > > International reaction to Bush's Axis of Evil declaration was swift, as > > within minutes, France surrendered. Elsewhere, peer-conscious nations > > rushed to gain triumvirate status in what > became a game of geopolitical > > chairs. Cuba, Sudan and Serbia said they had formed the Axis of Somewhat > > Evil, forcing Somalia to join with Uganda and Myanmar in the Axis of > > Occasionally Evil, while Bulgaria, Indonesia and Russia established the > > Axis of Not So Much Evil Really As Just Generally > > Disagreeable. > > > > With the criteria suddenly expanded and all the desirable clubs filling > > up, > > Sierra Leone, El Salvador, and Rwanda applied to be called the Axis of > > Countries > > That Aren't the Worst But Certainly Won't Be Asked to Host the Olympics; > > Canada, Mexico and Australia formed the Axis of Nations That Are Actually > > Quite Nice Bu> Secretly Have Nasty Thoughts About America, while Spain, > > Scotland, and New Zealand established the Axis of Countries That Be > > Allowed to Ask Sheep to > > Wear Lipstick. "That's not a threat, really, just something we like to > > do," > > said Scottish Executive First Minister Jack McConnell. > > > > While wondering if the other nations of the world weren't perhaps making > > fun > > of him, a cautious Bush granted approval for most axes, although he > > rejected > > the establishment of the Axis of Countries Whose Names End in "Guay," > > accusing > > one of its members of filing a false application. Officials from > > Paraguay, > > Uruguay and Chadguay denied the charges. > > > > Israel, meanwhile, insisted it didn't want to join any Axis, but > > privately, > > world leaders said that's only because no one asked them. > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Tue Mar 5 22:46:17 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:46:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: <20020305183301.33467.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: [SNIP] > I think "Powering Our Communities with Technology" is right on the money and I think > it sounds pretty cool. > > Especially in light of the fact that yesterday's NY Times has a cool article on the > Wi-Fi networks going up in Manhattan, SF and elsewhere. Now, THERE is powering your > communities with technology! [SNIP] Indeed. This would be a fine slogan for a Wi-Fi project. But SCN isn't particularly about technology, and seemseless so as times gon (we're about a decade behind the curve technologically). On the whole, I'm with Doug here. JM * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Tue Mar 5 23:19:25 2002 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 23:19:25 -0800 Subject: SCN: Free wireless Message-ID: <3C85527D.7169.4DA96AA@localhost> (Michael Behar, Washington Monthly)---On a recent crisp sunny day in Manhattan, I strolled up to a faded wrought-iron bench in Tompkins Square Park, flipped open my new Sony Vaio laptop, and as I sipped a cappuccino, began downloading my email. While new messages zipped into my PC at speeds many times faster than a dial-up connection, I scanned the day's headlines on CNN.com, then clicked over to E*Trade to eye the market. In a handful of New York City's parks, coffeehouses, and other public areas, many are doing the same: getting online, surfing the Web, and checking email. And, like me, they're doing it wirelessly. What's more, they're avoiding the aggravations typically associated with getting high-speed Internet: no more waiting months for DSL providers to switch on service or for cable providers to upgrade your building. Wireless broadband is happening now, and best of all, it's free. Sound too good to be true? It isn't. A few blocks away, someone is paying for our broadband access (the catchall term for high-speed, high-capacity Internet). A typical broadband connection pipes so much bandwidth into a customer's home---more than any one person really needs---that my benefactor is happy to share the excess with whomever cares to use it. He does this by beaming his standard DSL broadband signal through a "wireless base-station," a device about the size of a paperback novel with a stubby black antenna. Base stations are designed to send a broadband signal a few hundred feet, which would allow you to receive a wireless Internet connection in most of the rooms in your home. Recently, however, a growing number of broadband customers have discovered that they can boost the range of wireless signals several miles with homemade antennas fashioned from no more than an empty Pringles potato-chip can, or scraps of metal, wire, and tinfoil. Yet what started as a clever technique to share bandwidth with friends and neighbors has grown into a national grassroots movement called Free Wireless. Today, legions of tech-savvy hobbyists have formed what amounts to a "broadband militia" and they are spreading something that many people these days want but still can't get: cheap, fast access to the Internet. Broadband isn't merely a neat high-tech option, like a CD burner, but a potentially transformative technology with the power to jumpstart the American economy. The stock market boom of the late 1990s was fueled in large part by the promise of a dazzling array of new applications that broadband would enable--- everything from seamless video-conferencing and downloading movies-on-demand to online doctors' visits and court appearances. One reason tech stocks were bid up so high is that many of these applications were ready to be deployed and needed only universal broadband to do so, something everyone figured was imminent. Only it wasn't. Today, 90 percent of American households still don't have broadband (fewer than 10 million people do). Many believe that the key to ending the recession is spreading broadband to all those potential customers, which would give high-tech companies a delivery mechanism for their products and allow these new industries to take off. Unfortunately, exactly the opposite is happening. After rising steadily for the last five years, the number of new broadband users has slowed. The good news is that the necessary foundation for universal broadband has already been put in place. In the last decade, investors spent $90 billion laying the fiber-optic cable networks that became the "backbone" which would bring broadband to the masses. The bad news is that today, 97 percent of it sits unused. That's because the telecommunications industry hasn't been able to bridge the gap between this fiber-optic backbone and people's homes at a price that the public is willing to pay. In fact, while the price of most technology falls, the price local phone companies charge for broadband is going up. Those price hikes are the natural result of the phone companies' monopoly, which has allowed them to squeeze out small competing Internet service providers, or ISPs. The cost and hassle of providing broadband to the residences and businesses of people who want it has become too big an obstacle. In order to get most forms of broadband from the backbone to your home, Baby Bells and cable companies have to upgrade their networking gear, swapping out older technology for equipment that can handle data traveling in two directions. And in neighborhoods that lack decent landlines it means laying wire from this new backbone to each individual customer at an expense of about $1,500 per home---a fee few Internet users are willing to pay. For broadband providers to foot the bill, they'd have to invest another $100 to $300 billion in infrastructure costs---impossible in today's depressed tech market and a sobering realization that's triggered an abrupt halt to broadband expansion. As ISPs go under, consumers are left with few choices for faster Internet service. Fortunately, the recession is finally forcing Washington to pay attention. The Bush administration says that broadband expansion is a top economic priority. It assembled a high-level "tech-team" that has met dozens of times with executives and lobbyists to discuss broadband. In January, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle D-S.D.) included universal broadband access in the Democrats' economic-revival plan. Broadband got a further push a week later when the technology industry launched a major lobbying effort to establish a national goal of creating 100 million new broadband customers by 2010. As The Washington Post put it recently, "broadband is a new battle cry in Washington." But there's a problem: There are many ways to deliver broadband to users, but Washington only hears about the ones touted by well- funded lobbyists for the phone, cable, and satellite companies, all of which are competing fiercely to become the preferred broadband technology and control and profit from the mass dissemination that everyone agrees will one day come about. None of these options, however, has a prayer of getting broadband to the masses quickly and cheaply. Worse, the big Internet providers are asking the Bush administration for vast tax breaks, subsidies, and regulatory favors to help them. The truth is that there's only one way to spread broadband cheaply and quickly: wirelessly. But that's the one method not being seriously discussed in Washington. The idea of wireless networking is not all that new. Long before Free Wireless emerged, several breeds of wireless technology had attained consumer success. Remember the HAMM radio craze in the 1970s? Or how about infrared direct access, also known as IrDA? In the early 1990s, most computers and laptops came equipped with IrDA, which allows you to transfer data between machines. (Got a Palm Pilot? Many PDAs use it to beam messages between handheld devices.) The broadband offered through Free Wireless operates similarly, on a small chunk of unlicensed spectrum the FCC set aside in 1993, which goes by the clunky name of "802.11b." Originally, 802.11b---also called "wireless fidelity" or WiFi---was designed for home networking, allowing you to simultaneously link several computers to a single Internet connection. Place a base station in your den, connect it to your modem, and it will generate a wireless network throughout your home---sort of like a baby monitor. When technology designed to utilize 802.11b arrived, the idea once again was to use it as a low-cost, in-home wireless network. For about $300, you can buy Apple's Airport Base Station, which will beam a signal to any nearby computer equipped with a $100 Airport card. The pitch for Airport and similar devices is that mom, dad, brother, and sister can all surf the net simultaneously. On a standard, 56K dial-up connection, that's about all it's good for; there isn't much extra bandwidth to siphon off for additional users. But as the number of folks with DSL, cable modems, and T-1 broadband connections grew, the extra bandwidth meant they could now share their super-fast Internet connection with dozens of other users without any noticeable loss in speed. Since 802.11b works through walls, around corners, is rarely corrupted by interference, and can, with a makeshift antenna, have its range extended thousands of feet beyond the base station, hackers quickly realized there was no reason to limit the signal to their home or office. By the middle of 1999, Free Wireless pioneers had discovered how to boost and retransmit their broadband signal up to several miles beyond their base stations. That meant a single user could pay an Internet service provider for a DSL, cable, or T1 connection, then broadcast access to it to everyone in their building or, in rural areas, to neighbors miles away. Today, city blocks once doomed to temperamental AOL dial-up connections are enjoying lightning-fast 802.11b-powered networks. While lawmakers bicker over how to spread broadband, engineers, computer scientists, and various geeks and hobbyists the world over are one step ahead, setting up wireless broadband networks in at least 25 cities, including New York, San Francisco, Boston, and Denver, as well as in remote regions of Alaska and Maine. It's also popping up in South American, Europe, Asia, Australia, and Canada. One thing that everyone can agree on is that broadband spurs innovation. To understand how, look no further than your local college campus. Colleges and universities were some of the first places wired for broadband access. In the late '90s, at Northeastern University in Boston, a freshman named Shawn Fanning decided to take advantage of the bandwidth at his disposal and created a program to trade electronic music files with friends. The result was Napster, which launched a revolution in how the Internet is used. It's no coincidence that many of Napster's heaviest users were college kids with broadband access; Napster created such high demand that many schools banned students from swapping music files because their servers were overwhelmed. It's this kind of innovation and subsequent demand that has business types so eager to spread broadband. While lobbyists and telecom conglomerates arm wrestle over ownership and policy decisions, Free Wireless is demonstrating why the excitement over broadband is justified. "I find that nearly everyone I tell about it comes up with some new idea, application, or use of the technology," says Anthony Townsend, a co-founder of NYC Wireless, one of the nation's largest and fastest-growing Free Wireless networks. "We have had artists who want to use 802.11b for interactive sculptures, community activists who want to use it to bridge the digital divide in poor neighborhoods and public housing projects, and many other ideas we would have never thought of alone." Within days of the attack on the World Trade Center, when phone lines and cables were severed, NYC Wireless members established an ad hoc high-speed network at Ground Zero, linking rescue workers and survivors to the outside world. Beyond coffeehouses and parks, the Free Wireless movement has been critical in bestowing broadband on regions where geography renders landline Internet access impossible. In Owl's Head, Maine, for instance, Jason Philbrook, founder of Midcoast Internet Solutions, employs a version of this technology to beam wireless Internet access to some of the most remote regions of his state. Midcoast charges for its service, placing it just outside the definition of Free Wireless. But it demonstrates the amazing possibilities for wireless broadband in areas where traditional ISPs would be loathe to invest. More ambitious plans are also afoot for 802.11b. The Swedish company SAS has announced its intention to use 802.11b on Boeing 737 commercial airliners to give passengers in-flight wireless Internet access. Delphi is equipping cars with 802.11b- compatible dashboard entertainment centers. In January, at the International Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, Delphi demonstrated 802.11b-ready cars that can download music wirelessly from a home network to an MP3- compatible audio deck, which will let you load up your car stereo with MP3 tunes for a long road trip or even trade songs wirelessly with other cars during a traffic jam. The possible business applications for wireless broadband are practically limitless, something the Free Wireless movement is helping to demonstrate. There is considerable dispute within the Free Wireless movement over who, if anyone, should pay for Internet access. Many Free Wireless pioneers envision a return to the utopian ideals that marked the early days of the Internet: an organic, dynamic system that would bind communities with free, unregulated access. One such person is Drew Ulricksen, who last year founded the Free Wireless advocacy group, Wireless Anarchy. "The beauty of WiFi," says Ulricksen, "is that with this technology we don't need to pay anyone for last mile access---we can do it ourselves." Ulricksen's views are balanced by those of a more realistic camp that champions the idea of wireless broadband, but recognizes that, if there's ever going to be a broadband revolution, somebody has to pick up the tab. A few of the more entrepreneurially minded have begun collecting money for the service. Sean Berry, a Unix systems engineer in Menlo Park, Calif., pays about $80 a month for his DSL service, which he beams to friends and neighbors who chip in to cover the monthly fee. Berry's collective points toward an innovative business model, since the cost to each user is a fraction of what they'd otherwise pay. The debate between the "free" and "fee" camps is a friendly one. Less cordial is the growing dispute between small entrepreneurs and the telecom companies who are becoming increasingly upset that their broadband is being resold. So far, this hasn't been much of a problem, since the Free Wireless movement is so small that most ISPs haven't explicitly forbid them. "It's largely off their radar map," says Townsend, of NYC Wireless. But that won't be true for much longer. Andrew Johnson, a spokesman for AT&T, likens the actions of entrepreneurs such as Berry to cable theft and threatens to disconnect any customer caught sharing their connection. In fact, AT&T has begun to conduct regular neighborhood fly-overs in search of rogue signals being transmitted from its customers. But AT&T can't catch everyone, particularly in urban areas where an 802.11b signal gets lost in the sea of radio waves created by other wireless devices. So for now, Free Wireless is proliferating. But the battle over broadband raises the important question of whether bandwidth is a commodity. Small entrepreneurs think it is. After all, they reason, can a flour company demand a cut of the profits from cookies you sell at a bake sale just because you baked them with their flour? Absurd as this question might seem, the Free Wireless movement is forcing ISPs and telecom companies to define the exact legal limits of bandwidth allocation. That, in essence, is the problem with Free Wireless: It's at the mercy of the Baby Bells and cable companies, which, once the movement reaches critical mass, will crack down hard when they discover they're losing market share to a bunch of hackers. Many of these do-it-yourself broadband networkers pride themselves on scrupulous adherence to the law, pointing out that the contracts they sign with ISPs to get their broadband connections don't prohibit them from reselling some of their bandwidth. People like Dewayne Hendricks, a wireless network developer who runs a company called the Dandin Group, pays $925 a month for his T-1 connection, which, he says, "gives me the right to act as my own ISP and redistribute bandwidth [wirelessly] without restrictions." In turn, he is spreading broadband to neighborhoods where cable or DSL providers can't or won't service, such as the wireless network he recently began building for the Turtle Mountain Chippewa Reservation in Belcourt, N.D. Along with his partner Matt Peterson, Tim Pozar, the co-founder of the Bay Area Wireless Users Group, was among the first to help communities set up 802.11b networks. "We want to educate people on how to create 802.11b networks that adhere to the FCC rules and regulations on how you can use this portion of unlicensed bandwidth," he explains. "We're encouraging people to build mom-and-pop [wireless networks] and a lot of people are going out there and doing it." Indeed, hundreds of Bay Area networks have already been built on this model. It would be tough to argue with Pozar's prescription for spreading broadband were it not for the sticky issue of legality: One problem with Free Wireless which Hendricks points out is that FCC regulations forbid the kind of souped-up base stations that beam wireless broadband signals to entire neighborhoods. It's true that the Free Wireless folks can spread broadband more quickly and easily than a traditional ISP, but at the same time they operate in a legal gray area---a fact that may eventually lead to their demise. Killing the Free Wireless movement in its infancy would be tragic, because the alternatives for spreading broadband are fraught with problems. Not only are the cable, phone, and satellite companies many years and billions of dollars away from creating universal broadband, but if small entrepreneurs disappear, so will customer choice: whichever of the major providers controls broadband also influences what its subscribers see and do online. In much the same way that Microsoft dominates the browser market, it's conceivable that a phone company such as Verizon could cut deals with certain news and shopping sites, then instruct its network to steer unwitting customers toward its content partners. By controlling the broadband gateway, it could even go so far as to ensure that non-partner pages download slower than preferred portals to encourage---or force---users to stay within the Verizon "family." At a time when Washington is flummoxed over how to spread broadband and spur the next economic boom, the Free Wireless movement is pointing the way toward a cheaper, faster way to bring broadband to the masses. The trouble is, cutting-edge entrepreneurs like Hendricks and Berry have no real presence in Washington, which is where the future of broadband will soon be decided. Right now, the debate is shaping up as a battle between the Baby Bells, cable companies, and the big wireless phone companies, all of whom have hired lobbyists and are jockeying to guide federal subsidies and regulatory advantages their way in a bid to claim for themselves this vast potential market (if you live in Washington, surely you too have been bombarded will all the television commercials for and against broadband legislation). But it will take big industry years and billions of dollars to deliver universal broadband through their preferred means. Washington lawmakers need to create a regulatory environment in which small entrepreneurs can flourish. The first step is to clear up the law so that broadband entrepreneurs are free to resell broadband to customers quickly and affordably. AT&T may flinch over this, but NYC Wireless's Townsend makes the point that "big ISPs will come to see us as a good thing---we're building demand for broadband by demonstrating its possibilities." The vast majority of Americans could receive some form of broadband, but due to price and hassle, so far have elected not to. Low-cost wireless community networks could change this, giving customers an easy way to get online, sparking demand for broadband applications and kicking the economy into high gear. None of this can happen until the FCC frees up more unlicensed spectrum. While 802.11b has proven its potential for enabling cheap wireless networking, the downside is that it can only handle a limited amount of users before interference becomes a problem. Fortunately, there is plenty of available spectrum that could fill this need---the catch is that it's controlled by powerful businesses which got their spectrum years ago and aren't permitted to sell it. Television broadcasters are the best case in point: Several years ago, the government allotted them, at no cost, new spectrum for high-definition television, which looked at the time to be the next stage in broadcast technology. But that idea fizzled. Digital television is instead being deployed at a rapid clip through cable. It's time to take that spectrum back. Unfortunately, the Bush administration looks to be on the brink of doing exactly the wrong thing: giving Baby Bells and cable operators complete and exclusive control of their lines, effectively shutting out competition. The Baby Bells have already shown their eagerness to deny access to independent ISPs, driving many out of business. Surely, they would move just as swiftly to deny small broadband entrepreneurs the right to re-sell their signal if doing so meant sacrificing potential customers. Throughout American history, our economy has thrived when individual entrepreneurs led the way---from homesteaders in the 19th century to the 1970s garage-geeks who founded some of today's biggest Silicon Valley tech companies. New wireless technologies could enable legions of small broadband entrepreneurs to deliver high-speed wireless Internet to tens of thousands of Americans at lower prices. Once online, these new broadband users will not only unleash long-awaited features like movies-on-demand and videoconferencing, but also set the stage for more Napster-like innovation from smaller entrepreneurs. (Ninety percent of small businesses lack broadband.) Today, the closest thing to anytime-anywhere wireless broadband service is provided by a company called Boingo, which is garnering heaps of praise from the tech press and early adopters like me. Boingo sells "sniffer" software that hunts for 802.11b networks in the vicinity of your laptop, wherever it may happen to be. Next month, I'm travelling to San Jose and then to Seattle---both cities covered under the Boingo umbrella. While on the road, I'll be able to flip open my laptop and get fast, wireless broadband service. And I don't even need a Pringles can. Lawmakers debating the future of broadband should take note: Before you side with big industry and sabotage free wireless, give this service a shot and discover the future of broadband yourself. Thousands of voters already have. Millions more are bound to be impressed with whomever recognizes this hidden key to fixing the economy. Copyright 2002 The Washington Monthly * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ttrim at scn.org Wed Mar 6 09:25:47 2002 From: ttrim at scn.org (Terry Trimingham) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:25:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree with Doug on this one. SCN was created to allow all people access to technology. "Democratic technology for all." It is still true, we still allow the have-nots access to the internet. On the other hand, we are archaic, klunky, and hard to use compared to most technology available today. "Powering our communities with technology" implies that we have something slick to offer, and we don't. I think it is VERY misleading to use this phrase as our slogan. And, I agree with Joe. There are so many other things wrong with SCN than the logo and the slogan, it would be better to focus on those things, rather than try to "fix" something that hasn't yet broken. Terry On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > I don't like the logo change idea and I don't like the > slogan change idea. > > "Democratic Technology for all" is more inclusive and broad. > > "Powering our communities with technology" is technocratic. > > I would think that we'd rather put the emphasis on DEMOCRACY > not on TECHNOLOGY. > > Can somebody remind me why this is happening? > > -- Doug > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > Joe, > > > > Thanks for the comments. The logo issue is out of my hands, as far as I know. > > > > There will be a different slogan. I think it is: Powering Our Communities with > > Technology. > > > > It would be nice, as you say, to have different variations of the logos for > > different uses. > > > > I will put the PDF up on a web page. I will have to take a screen sshot and past it > > as an image, though. > > > > Thanks! > > Patrick > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the "democratic > > > technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down badly. > > > Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and consider whether > > > it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. > > > > > > One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a logo 3-5 > > > different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. Major graphic > > > elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, text might not > > > be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve readability. > > > > > > In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through email, > > > can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central place > > > people can look at the possibiities? > > > > > > That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic here: > > > Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can contribute to, this > > > seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not put a new > > > logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. > > > > > > -------------------- > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > > > > > > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not like > > > > about the logos. > > > > > > > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > > > > something out. > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > Webmaster > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Mar 6 10:30:35 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:30:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020306183035.74290.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> I see "Powering our Communities with Technology" to mean that communities, groups can use SCN to have a web site to broadcast information about themselves via a media that is accessible to all. That is my take on it. Second, please, please tell me what needs to be fixed with SCN. From your point. I have asked. And what is it that us web update people can do to fix it? I don't do hardware. I don't do software. A few of us topic editors who update the pages are good at what they do and are not hardware/software people. If the problem lies there, what is it that we can do when we do not have those skills? Please tell me. There are other more pressing problems. Do all of the volunteers jump in and work only on those items and ignore everything else? What is wrong with fixing up a car by having a few people working on the engine and a few painting and detailing? Should we all be working on the engine? Please tell me, I'd like to know. And if the site looks great and updated, will that not bring in more donations? Leaving the front end in neglect while working on the engine only will be our savior? Mainly, many people have said that there are more pressing issues for SCN. HOwever, no one has mentioned specifically what those things are. Also, to reiterate, an organization putting a web site up for free on SCN, void of ads, is in my opinion, "Powering our communities with technology". Maybe it isn't the total answer, but I think SCN does a great job at what it can do. Off my soapbox, Patrick --- Terry Trimingham wrote: > > > I agree with Doug on this one. > > SCN was created to allow all people access to technology. "Democratic > technology for all." It is still true, we still allow the have-nots access > to the internet. > > On the other hand, we are archaic, klunky, and hard to use compared to > most technology available today. "Powering our communities with > technology" implies that we have something slick to offer, and we don't. I > think it is VERY misleading to use this phrase as our slogan. > > And, I agree with Joe. There are so many other things wrong with SCN than > the logo and the slogan, it would be better to focus on those things, > rather than try to "fix" something that hasn't yet broken. > > Terry > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > I don't like the logo change idea and I don't like the > > slogan change idea. > > > > "Democratic Technology for all" is more inclusive and broad. > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" is technocratic. > > > > I would think that we'd rather put the emphasis on DEMOCRACY > > not on TECHNOLOGY. > > > > Can somebody remind me why this is happening? > > > > -- Doug > > > > ****************************************************************** > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > * is being shaped today. * > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. The logo issue is out of my hands, as far as I know. > > > > > > There will be a different slogan. I think it is: Powering Our Communities with > > > Technology. > > > > > > It would be nice, as you say, to have different variations of the logos for > > > different uses. > > > > > > I will put the PDF up on a web page. I will have to take a screen sshot and > past it > > > as an image, though. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the "democratic > > > > technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down badly. > > > > Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and consider > whether > > > > it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. > > > > > > > > One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a logo 3-5 > > > > different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. Major > graphic > > > > elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, text might > not > > > > be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve readability. > > > > > > > > In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through email, > > > > can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central place > > > > people can look at the possibiities? > > > > > > > > That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic here: > > > > Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can contribute to, > this > > > > seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not put a new > > > > > logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > > > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > > > > > > > > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not like > > > > > about the logos. > > > > > > > > > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > > > > > something out. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > Webmaster > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > Webmaster > > > Seattle Community Network > > > http://www.scn.org > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Wed Mar 6 11:54:37 2002 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:54:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I definitely agree with Joe, Doug and others that the slogan should NOT be changed. -randy On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Joe Mabel wrote: > [SNIP] > > I think "Powering Our Communities with Technology" is right on the money and I think > > it sounds pretty cool. > > > > Especially in light of the fact that yesterday's NY Times has a cool article on the > > Wi-Fi networks going up in Manhattan, SF and elsewhere. Now, THERE is powering your > > communities with technology! > [SNIP] > Indeed. This would be a fine slogan for a Wi-Fi project. But SCN isn't > particularly about technology, and seemseless so as times gon (we're about a > decade behind the curve technologically). On the whole, I'm with Doug here. > > JM > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Mar 6 12:04:37 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 12:04:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020306200437.17935.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Everyone, This is out of my hands. I'm not the powers that be on this and I do not know who came up with either logo. Patrick --- Randy Groves wrote: > > I definitely agree with Joe, Doug and others that the slogan should NOT be > changed. > > -randy > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > [SNIP] > > > I think "Powering Our Communities with Technology" is right on the money and I > think > > > it sounds pretty cool. > > > > > > Especially in light of the fact that yesterday's NY Times has a cool article > on the > > > Wi-Fi networks going up in Manhattan, SF and elsewhere. Now, THERE is powering > your > > > communities with technology! > > [SNIP] > > Indeed. This would be a fine slogan for a Wi-Fi project. But SCN isn't > > particularly about technology, and seemseless so as times gon (we're about a > > decade behind the curve technologically). On the whole, I'm with Doug here. > > > > JM > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From events at jewishnetwork.com Wed Mar 6 12:17:50 2002 From: events at jewishnetwork.com (Andrew Weitzen) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:17:50 -0200 Subject: SCN: Reminder: please list your March and April Jewish events on JewishNetwork.com Message-ID: Hello Jewish Leaders and others needing to reach the Jewish community, If you have not already done so, please list your upcoming March and April events on www.JewishNetwork.com. (See the bottom for removal information and a free trip to Israel for 18-26 year-olds) This is a free Jewish event listing service. Please let the Jewish community know about the great events you are running. Even if you already list events on your own website, listing your events on www.JewishNetwork.com will help increase your audience, especially to those people that do not know about you. Organizations like Aish HaTorah, B'nai B'rith, Chabad, Hillel, Isralight, JCCs, Jewish Federations, Jewish singles, Mosaic Outdoor Club, synagogues and many others benefit from increased attendance by listing their events. There is no charge to list or view events. You can update events yourself. Go to www.JewishNetwork.com and click the "Event" link in the upper right. Alternately you can email event information to events at jewishnetwork.com or reply to this email. Please let us know how we can help you. Shalom, Andrew Weitzen, General Manager events at jewishnetwork.com www.JewishNetwork.com ====================================== DISPLAY JUST YOUR ORGANIZATION'S EVENTS ====================================== After you enter your events, you can use this link to display just your organization's events. http://www.jewishnetwork.com/asp/main_event/event_user_list_direct_form.asp? idorg=xxxx Replace "xxxx" in the link with your organization ID. You can use this link in your emailings, website or cut and paste the event information into another program. =================== Free Trip To Israel =================== Travel to Israel this spring or summer FOR FREE with Isralight. Isralight and Birthright Israel have 10 day programs leaving every month from May through August! If you or anyone you know is 18-26 and never been on a group trip to Israel before, this is your opportunity to go ABSOLUTELY FREE!!! Israel needs our support now more than ever!!! Take and extraordinary adventure to the land of Israel and into the soul of the Jewish people. With Isralight, you'll climb to the top of Masada, and then dive deep into Kabbalah. This Isralight experience is a unique blend of touring the sites and exploring spiritual insights. Tour & Explore is a great way to both see Israel and learn about Judaism. For more information visit http://www.jewishnetwork.com/asp/main_local/020305_isralight.htm =================== Removal Information =================== If this reached you inappropriately or is a discussion group, we apologize for the inconvenience. Please reply to this email with the word "remove" in the subject. Make sure you are sending from scn at scn.org or put "remove scn at scn.org" in the subject. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Mar 6 20:53:22 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:53:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN Potlck location and details Message-ID: <20020307045322.55741.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> The Seattle Community Network annual potluck will be held on Saturday, March 16th, from 5 pm to 7 pm or so at the Vintage Telephone Equipment Museum (http://www.scn.org/tech/telmuseum/). It is located at 7000 East Marginal Way South, Seattle, Washington, 98108, about three blocks west of the northwest "corner" of Boeing Field. ---- Map: http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&addr=7000+E+Marginal+Way+S&city=Seattle&state=WA&slt=47.539816&sln=-122.322308&name=&zip=98108-3411&country=us&&BFKey=&BFCat=&BFClient=&mag=9&desc=&cs=9&newmag=8&poititle=&poi=&ds=n --- Directions from North Seattle (onramp at 85th Street): 4. Take the I-5 SOUTH ramp towards SEATTLE 9.9 � 5. Take the exit towards MICHIGAN ST/CORSON AVE, exit number 162 0.0 � 6. Continue onto CORSON AVE S 0.6 � 7. Turn Left on E MARGINAL WAY S 0.1 � 8. Arrive at destination If you have any questions, please let me know. Thanks, Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Wed Mar 6 21:26:53 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:26:53 -0800 Subject: SCN: logo ideas References: Message-ID: <000d01c1c59d$df88b3e0$7152fea9@desktop> This comment by T. Trimingham is right on target. She is a long-time member/participant and her insight is excellent. The highest priority is to bring the SCNA technology into the 21st Century. Presumably, tweaking the the cosmeticas and the Web page will not use up the efforts of those who are dealing with the technology, but Terry is correct in her implication that the new wording, as exciting as it is, gives a false impression that we are operating in the 21st Century and that we have a lot to give and that we are actively engaged in current technology operations. SCN COULD, and hopefully will, provide exciting technology for community service, but we have fallen behind. Very good comments, Terry. ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Trimingham To: Doug Schuler Cc: patrick fisher ; Joe Mabel ; Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 9:25 AM Subject: Re: SCN: logo ideas > > > I agree with Doug on this one. > > SCN was created to allow all people access to technology. "Democratic > technology for all." It is still true, we still allow the have-nots access > to the internet. > > On the other hand, we are archaic, klunky, and hard to use compared to > most technology available today. "Powering our communities with > technology" implies that we have something slick to offer, and we don't. I > think it is VERY misleading to use this phrase as our slogan. > > And, I agree with Joe. There are so many other things wrong with SCN than > the logo and the slogan, it would be better to focus on those things, > rather than try to "fix" something that hasn't yet broken. > > Terry > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > I don't like the logo change idea and I don't like the > > slogan change idea. > > > > "Democratic Technology for all" is more inclusive and broad. > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" is technocratic. > > > > I would think that we'd rather put the emphasis on DEMOCRACY > > not on TECHNOLOGY. > > > > Can somebody remind me why this is happening? > > > > -- Doug > > > > ****************************************************************** > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > * is being shaped today. * > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. The logo issue is out of my hands, as far as I know. > > > > > > There will be a different slogan. I think it is: Powering Our Communities with > > > Technology. > > > > > > It would be nice, as you say, to have different variations of the logos for > > > different uses. > > > > > > I will put the PDF up on a web page. I will have to take a screen sshot and past it > > > as an image, though. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the "democratic > > > > technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down badly. > > > > Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and consider whether > > > > it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. > > > > > > > > One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a logo 3-5 > > > > different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. Major graphic > > > > elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, text might not > > > > be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve readability. > > > > > > > > In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through email, > > > > can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central place > > > > people can look at the possibiities? > > > > > > > > That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic here: > > > > Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can contribute to, this > > > > seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not put a new > > > > logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > > > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > > > > > > > > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not like > > > > > about the logos. > > > > > > > > > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > > > > > something out. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > Webmaster > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > Webmaster > > > Seattle Community Network > > > http://www.scn.org > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Wed Mar 6 22:45:30 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:45:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: <20020306183035.74290.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: So maybe "Placing communities on the web" would make sense (although I still see supporting cyberspace "democracy" as even more central to our mission than "community"), but "technology" has certainly not been our emphasis. We don't even continue to have a program to pass used computers to those who need them. It seems to me that this effort to revisit a slogan is putting the cart before the horse. If it is time to reconsider our mission (and perhaps it is), we should have some serious discussion of that mission, develop something like a consensus (which, if there is no broad consensus, may be painful and may involve some people leaving the group, hopefully not in anger but to start groups that focus more in their areas of concern). Then when we agree what we are doing, if our current slogan is inappropriate to our new mission, it is time to change the slogan. What is broken about SCN(A)? In my viev: - we seem to have lost sight of providing service for the most disadvantaged which approximates what is available to other people. - we have a lot of bickering, blaming, and flaming that discourages active participation by capable people. - we have not become expert at deploying volunteers to maximum advantage. - we have fallen far short of our early goal of being innovators, of constituting a model for others in using technology in service to democracy. - we do not, in my opinion, constitute one of the easiest ways to get local, public-minded content onto the Web. - we have never developed any ability at all to truly support other likeminded endeavors. All of that said, I still think the group has enormous potential and an appropriate (if somewhat vague) mission. I'm glad to have the Peace Heathens' Crisis Resource Directory be hosted as part of SCN. I'm glad to have it up there with no ads and no censorship. I'm glad to have it up there as something to strengthen SCN's content offering. But where on SCN are ten other sites equally vital to Seattle? Where is the technology that would make our Crisis Resource Directory easily searchable? Where is the community (yes, community) of other organizations with web content on SCN with which we can share ideas about mutually strengthening our offerings? What is SCN doing that it wasn't doing five years ago to help those most in need of such information have access to it? What are we doing to work with the disadvantaged rather than merely for them? I am in the ironic situation of posing all of these questions from my current office in Bucharest, Romania. I'm not in the ideal position to be part of a Seattle-based community at this moment. The internet is an amazing thing: it allows me to actively participate in this discussion from the far edge of Europe. The question to me is, what are we doing to make it equally likely for someone to participate from the far edge of South Park, White Center, or Yesler Terrace? What are we doing to build democracy in the USA? -------------------- Joe Mabel On Wed, 6 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > I see "Powering our Communities with Technology" to mean that communities, groups > can use SCN to have a web site to broadcast information about themselves via a media > that is accessible to all. That is my take on it. > > Second, please, please tell me what needs to be fixed with SCN. From your point. I > have asked. And what is it that us web update people can do to fix it? I don't do > hardware. I don't do software. A few of us topic editors who update the pages are > good at what they do and are not hardware/software people. If the problem lies > there, what is it that we can do when we do not have those skills? Please tell me. > > There are other more pressing problems. Do all of the volunteers jump in and work > only on those items and ignore everything else? > > What is wrong with fixing up a car by having a few people working on the engine and > a few painting and detailing? Should we all be working on the engine? Please tell > me, I'd like to know. > > And if the site looks great and updated, will that not bring in more donations? > Leaving the front end in neglect while working on the engine only will be our > savior? > > Mainly, many people have said that there are more pressing issues for SCN. HOwever, > no one has mentioned specifically what those things are. > > Also, to reiterate, an organization putting a web site up for free on SCN, void of > ads, is in my opinion, "Powering our communities with technology". Maybe it isn't > the total answer, but I think SCN does a great job at what it can do. > > Off my soapbox, > Patrick > > > > --- Terry Trimingham wrote: > > > > > > I agree with Doug on this one. > > > > SCN was created to allow all people access to technology. "Democratic > > technology for all." It is still true, we still allow the have-nots access > > to the internet. > > > > On the other hand, we are archaic, klunky, and hard to use compared to > > most technology available today. "Powering our communities with > > technology" implies that we have something slick to offer, and we don't. I > > think it is VERY misleading to use this phrase as our slogan. > > > > And, I agree with Joe. There are so many other things wrong with SCN than > > the logo and the slogan, it would be better to focus on those things, > > rather than try to "fix" something that hasn't yet broken. > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't like the logo change idea and I don't like the > > > slogan change idea. > > > > > > "Democratic Technology for all" is more inclusive and broad. > > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" is technocratic. > > > > > > I would think that we'd rather put the emphasis on DEMOCRACY > > > not on TECHNOLOGY. > > > > > > Can somebody remind me why this is happening? > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > > * is being shaped today. * > > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. The logo issue is out of my hands, as far as I know. > > > > > > > > There will be a different slogan. I think it is: Powering Our Communities with > > > > Technology. > > > > > > > > It would be nice, as you say, to have different variations of the logos for > > > > different uses. > > > > > > > > I will put the PDF up on a web page. I will have to take a screen sshot and > > past it > > > > as an image, though. > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > > Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the "democratic > > > > > technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down badly. > > > > > Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and consider > > whether > > > > > it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. > > > > > > > > > > One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a logo 3-5 > > > > > different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. Major > > graphic > > > > > elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, text might > > not > > > > > be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve readability. > > > > > > > > > > In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through email, > > > > > can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central place > > > > > people can look at the possibiities? > > > > > > > > > > That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic here: > > > > > Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can contribute to, > > this > > > > > seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not put a new > > > > > > > logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not like > > > > > > about the logos. > > > > > > > > > > > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > > > > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > > > > > > something out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > > Webmaster > > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > > > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > Webmaster > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Mar 7 07:53:19 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 07:53:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Potluck - specific directions - please read Message-ID: <20020307155319.14088.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> FYI - The Telephone Museum parking lot entrance is before you get to East Marginal Way - on the left, behind the building. The building is on the corner. Right across from the Hat and Boot. Don't turn onto E Marginal Way - you have gone too far. The building entrance is to the left as you face the building from the parking lot. Take the elevator to the third floor. Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Thu Mar 7 10:44:24 2002 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:44:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: "cleaned up" logos Message-ID: <200203071844.KAA18285@scn.org> Noriko Okazaki spent some time "cleaning up" the scn logo. The work is displayed at http://www.scn.org/commnet/logos.html. -- Doug * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Mar 7 11:32:32 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:32:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: "cleaned up" logos In-Reply-To: <200203071844.KAA18285@scn.org> Message-ID: <20020307193232.3557.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, Thank you for the link to the logos. I've passed them along to the appropriate "authorities", in case they are not subscribed to this list. There is good change that the site update can occur without a new logo. Or perhaps there will be an interim logo. I will get more information on this. However, the site update is going to take time (this is aside from a logo) and that should take place without regard to whether the logo has been accepted. I will have more information in two weeks after the board meeting. I am not on the board, but if you have some comments that you would like sent to the board in regards to logo or design, please let me know ASAP. If you feel that the site redesign can go ahead without the logo being implemented at this time, then please let me know. As a side note, people in the past have thought the following of teh cdurrent logo, besides the fact that it needed to be cleaned up: That the Space Needle, in its position, was too phallic (that one surprised me) and should be set further apart from Mercury. One other main comment was that Mercury's limbs were not proportional. His arms are too long and his legs are too short. So short you wonder if he is emaciated. I must admit, I do like the styling of the SCN logo. That is my own personal opinion. I like the character there, the Space Needle. I do feel it should be completely redone, but with all the current elements. The center logos that you have looks pretty good, but it is still too pixelated, adn there are the issues I presented (passed along) above. Patrick That's all for now. --- Doug Schuler wrote: > Noriko Okazaki spent some time "cleaning up" the scn logo. > The work is displayed at http://www.scn.org/commnet/logos.html. > > -- Doug > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Mar 7 12:19:45 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:19:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020307201945.76318.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Joe, thanks for writing. Comments follow: --- Joe Mabel wrote: > So maybe "Placing communities on the web" would make sense (although I still see > supporting cyberspace "democracy" as even more central to our mission than > "community"), but "technology" has certainly not been our emphasis. We don't > even continue to have a program to pass used computers to those who need them. > Ti Locke has the Computer Giveaway program. It's tied to SCN and was supposed to be updated on SCN, but wasn't. I don't have access to altering SCNA directories, so my hands are tied on this one. > It seems to me that this effort to revisit a slogan is putting the cart before > the horse. If it is time to reconsider our mission (and perhaps it is), we > should have some serious discussion of that mission, develop something like a > consensus (which, if there is no broad consensus, may be painful and may > involve some people leaving the group, hopefully not in anger but to start > groups that focus more in their areas of concern). Then when we agree what we > are doing, if our current slogan is inappropriate to our new mission, it is > time to change the slogan. > This is really out of my realm to comment on. I'm working on the current mission. > What is broken about SCN(A)? In my viev: > - we seem to have lost sight of providing service for the most disadvantaged > which approximates what is available to other people. Not to be critical, but could you give some specifics? > - we have a lot of bickering, blaming, and flaming that discourages active > participation by capable people. I don't really see this as a problem. Things aren't too bad for a mailing list. Certainly no worse than any other. > - we have not become expert at deploying volunteers to maximum advantage. I disagree here, from my vantage point. We've brought on some very capable topic editors and they are all gung-ho for SCN. They do a remarkable job. > - we have fallen far short of our early goal of being innovators, of > constituting a model for others in using technology in service to democracy. That is one bite that is bigger than I can chew. That can encompass so much. > - we do not, in my opinion, constitute one of the easiest ways to get local, > public-minded content onto the Web. I don't believe it is any harder than any other site. It's not too bad. If there is something that can be fixed, please make a suggestion and I will look at it. I will admit, though, that making the content on SCN more concise would be very helpful and I'm working on that! > - we have never developed any ability at all to truly support other > likeminded endeavors. Give me a list and I will take a look. Could you be a little more specific on this issue? > > All of that said, I still think the group has enormous potential and an > appropriate (if somewhat vague) mission. I'm glad to have the Peace Heathens' > Crisis Resource Directory be hosted as part of SCN. I'm glad to have it up there > with no ads and no censorship. I'm glad to have it up there as something to > strengthen SCN's content offering. But where on SCN are ten other sites equally > vital to Seattle? Where is the technology that would make our Crisis > Resource Directory easily searchable? Where is the community (yes, community) of > other organizations with web content on SCN with which we can share ideas about > mutually strengthening our offerings? What is SCN doing that it wasn't doing > five years ago to help those most in need of such information have access to it? > What are we doing to work with the disadvantaged rather than merely for them? > > I am in the ironic situation of posing all of these questions from my current > office in Bucharest, Romania. I'm not in the ideal position to be part of a > Seattle-based community at this moment. The internet is an amazing thing: it > allows me to actively participate in this discussion from the far edge of > Europe. The question to me is, what are we doing to make it equally likely for > someone to participate from the far edge of South Park, White Center, or Yesler > Terrace? What are we doing to build democracy in the USA? > Joe, thanks for the food for thought. As I've blathered on about in the past, updating SCN is going to be a big deal. I want to get to that point, then work from there. Structure will change, and we will see things from a new vantage point. I really believe that. If you have a short/long list of things that we need to do, please send them to me. Thanks! Patrick > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Wed, 6 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > I see "Powering our Communities with Technology" to mean that communities, > groups > > can use SCN to have a web site to broadcast information about themselves via a > media > > that is accessible to all. That is my take on it. > > > > Second, please, please tell me what needs to be fixed with SCN. From your point. > I > > have asked. And what is it that us web update people can do to fix it? I don't > do > > hardware. I don't do software. A few of us topic editors who update the pages > are > > good at what they do and are not hardware/software people. If the problem lies > > there, what is it that we can do when we do not have those skills? Please tell > me. > > > > There are other more pressing problems. Do all of the volunteers jump in and > work > > only on those items and ignore everything else? > > > > What is wrong with fixing up a car by having a few people working on the engine > and > > a few painting and detailing? Should we all be working on the engine? Please > tell > > me, I'd like to know. > > > > And if the site looks great and updated, will that not bring in more donations? > > Leaving the front end in neglect while working on the engine only will be our > > savior? > > > > Mainly, many people have said that there are more pressing issues for SCN. > HOwever, > > no one has mentioned specifically what those things are. > > > > Also, to reiterate, an organization putting a web site up for free on SCN, void > of > > ads, is in my opinion, "Powering our communities with technology". Maybe it > isn't > > the total answer, but I think SCN does a great job at what it can do. > > > > Off my soapbox, > > Patrick > > > > > > > > --- Terry Trimingham wrote: > > > > > > > > > I agree with Doug on this one. > > > > > > SCN was created to allow all people access to technology. "Democratic > > > technology for all." It is still true, we still allow the have-nots access > > > to the internet. > > > > > > On the other hand, we are archaic, klunky, and hard to use compared to > > > most technology available today. "Powering our communities with > > > technology" implies that we have something slick to offer, and we don't. I > > > think it is VERY misleading to use this phrase as our slogan. > > > > > > And, I agree with Joe. There are so many other things wrong with SCN than > > > the logo and the slogan, it would be better to focus on those things, > > > rather than try to "fix" something that hasn't yet broken. > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I don't like the logo change idea and I don't like the > > > > slogan change idea. > > > > > > > > "Democratic Technology for all" is more inclusive and broad. > > > > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" is technocratic. > > > > > > > > I would think that we'd rather put the emphasis on DEMOCRACY > > > > not on TECHNOLOGY. > > > > > > > > Can somebody remind me why this is happening? > > > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > > > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > > > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > > > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > > > * is being shaped today. * > > > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > > > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. The logo issue is out of my hands, as far as I > know. > > > > > > > > > > There will be a different slogan. I think it is: Powering Our Communities > with > > > > > Technology. > > > > > > > > > > It would be nice, as you say, to have different variations of the logos > for > > > > > different uses. > > > > > > > > > > I will put the PDF up on a web page. I will have to take a screen sshot > and > > > past it > > > > > as an image, though. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > > > Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the > "democratic > > > > > > technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down > badly. > > > > > > Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and consider > > > whether > > > > > > it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. > > > > > > > > > > > > One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a logo > 3-5 > > > > > > different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. Major > > > graphic > > > > > > elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, text > might > > > not > > > > > > be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve readability. > > > > > > > > > > > > In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through > email, > > > > > > can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central > place > > > > > > people can look at the possibiities? > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic > here: > > > > > > Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can contribute > to, > > > this > > > > > > seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not put a > new > > > > > > > > > logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not like > > > > > > > about the logos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > > > > > > > something out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > > > Webmaster > > > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > > > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > > > > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > Webmaster > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Mar 7 12:32:39 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:32:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: <000d01c1c59d$df88b3e0$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: <20020307203239.12067.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Emailer1, how about offering some specific examples of what needs to be fixed? I don't recall Terry providing any specifics and I would have to guess and misinterpret what is on her mind. Doug did bring up an important issue and that is FTP for "all". Unfortunately, this can't be done at the moment as resources are scarce (anywhere, anytime), and it is not possible to fix FTP. I'm generalizing here, but it could involve a lot of work. I strongly advocate havign FTP for users, either on SCN's servers, or virtually on servers space donated by local ISPs. That would be pretty neat: They have secure FTP and that would make it easier for people to put up sites on SCN. I'm all for it. And when it happens, I will be very thrilled. I think it will be great. Especially, since Yahoo is dumping free FTP to users as they attempt to milk people's wallets for money. With that said, indirect and unspecific opinions do not outline the issues with SCN. Please make me a list of what and why and what could be done about it and we will get to work on it. Thanks much, Patrick --- emailer1 wrote: > This comment by T. Trimingham is right on target. She is a long-time > member/participant and her insight is excellent. > > The highest priority is to bring the SCNA technology into the 21st Century. > > Presumably, tweaking the the cosmeticas and the Web page will not use up > the efforts of those who are dealing with the technology, but Terry is > correct in her implication that the new wording, as exciting as it is, gives > a false impression that we are operating in the 21st Century and that we > have a lot to give and that we are actively engaged in current technology > operations. SCN COULD, and hopefully will, provide exciting technology for > community service, but we have fallen behind. > > Very good comments, Terry. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Terry Trimingham > To: Doug Schuler > Cc: patrick fisher ; Joe Mabel ; > > Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 9:25 AM > Subject: Re: SCN: logo ideas > > > > > > > > I agree with Doug on this one. > > > > SCN was created to allow all people access to technology. "Democratic > > technology for all." It is still true, we still allow the have-nots access > > to the internet. > > > > On the other hand, we are archaic, klunky, and hard to use compared to > > most technology available today. "Powering our communities with > > technology" implies that we have something slick to offer, and we don't. I > > think it is VERY misleading to use this phrase as our slogan. > > > > And, I agree with Joe. There are so many other things wrong with SCN than > > the logo and the slogan, it would be better to focus on those things, > > rather than try to "fix" something that hasn't yet broken. > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't like the logo change idea and I don't like the > > > slogan change idea. > > > > > > "Democratic Technology for all" is more inclusive and broad. > > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" is technocratic. > > > > > > I would think that we'd rather put the emphasis on DEMOCRACY > > > not on TECHNOLOGY. > > > > > > Can somebody remind me why this is happening? > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > > * is being shaped today. * > > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. The logo issue is out of my hands, as far as > I know. > > > > > > > > There will be a different slogan. I think it is: Powering Our > Communities with > > > > Technology. > > > > > > > > It would be nice, as you say, to have different variations of the > logos for > > > > different uses. > > > > > > > > I will put the PDF up on a web page. I will have to take a screen > sshot and past it > > > > as an image, though. > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > > Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the > "democratic > > > > > technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down > badly. > > > > > Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and > consider whether > > > > > it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. > > > > > > > > > > One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a > logo 3-5 > > > > > different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. > Major graphic > > > > > elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, > text might not > > > > > be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve > readability. > > > > > > > > > > In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through > email, > > > > > can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central > place > > > > > people can look at the possibiities? > > > > > > > > > > That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the > Titanic here: > > > > > Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can > contribute to, this > > > > > seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not > put a new > > > > > logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not > like > > > > > > about the logos. > > > > > > > > > > > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > > > > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > > > > > > something out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > > Webmaster > > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > > > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > Webmaster > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * > * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * > * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today > Only $9.95 per month! > http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Thu Mar 7 13:15:32 2002 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:15:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: "cleaned up" logos In-Reply-To: <200203071844.KAA18285@scn.org> Message-ID: Why don't we punt the whole 'new logo' issue for now and use one of these? I'd like us to get on to other, more important issues. I think that one of these - I personally perfer the 'stamp without the black border' (number 3) - combined with Lee's new web design suggestion would be very cool. That keeps us with one foot in our past and one striding off into the new future ... now we just have to avoid falling down ;-) -randy On Thu, 7 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > Noriko Okazaki spent some time "cleaning up" the scn logo. > The work is displayed at http://www.scn.org/commnet/logos.html. > > -- Doug > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Thu Mar 7 13:45:58 2002 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:45:58 -0800 Subject: SCN: USAPA Message-ID: <3C876F16.11259.83D0382@localhost> x-no-archive: yes =============== The USA PATRIOT act gives the government broad new powers to seize library and bookstore records -- and prevents librarians and booksellers from complaining. (Christopher Dreher, Salon)---Libraries might seem an unlikely place to hunt down terrorists. But in the wake of Sept. 11, authorities learned that some of the al-Qaida hijackers had used library computers to communicate with one another and research the attacks. The FBI obtained court orders for Internet sign-in sheets and computer hard drives from two Florida public libraries, and in the following months gathered information from other libraries in Florida, Maryland and Virginia as part of investigating terrorist activities in the United States. But even though the government was able to get what it wanted from those libraries under existing laws, intelligence agencies argued they needed more sweeping powers. The result was the passage last October of the USA PATRIOT Act (USAPA), an acronym for the unwieldy "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act." USAPA, of course, deals with much more than libraries -- it amends more than 15 statutes, including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the Cable Act, and the Federal Wiretap Statute. The new law gave the government unprecedented authority to conduct secret searches, monitor e-mail and Internet usage, share information between intelligence agencies and seize personal information with only nominal judicial oversight. And the new USAPA powers will also reach into libraries and bookstores, if investigators believe that records of what someone is reading and researching are relevant to an anti-terror investigation. Already librarians say they've received requests for records under USAPA, but they are prohibited from making such demands public; they can't reveal who made the requests and what they asked for, or keep track of such requests in any way. Civil libertarians say USAPA gave the government authority to bypass privacy rights without enough checks and balances to assure that the new powers are being used appropriately. In fact, the legislation amended several laws that were put in place to prevent the type of government surveillance scandals that made news in the 1960s and 1970s, such as the FBI's widespread, illegal surveillance of American citizens and domestic dissent groups. Although USAPA proponents claim that the new law is aimed at foreign nationals, many of the changes apply to American citizens as well. Librarians and booksellers worry that this expansion of the surveillance laws will ultimately have disastrous consequences for civil liberties and dampen intellectual freedom by having readers thinking twice about what they check out or buy. Chris Finan, president of the American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression (ABFFE), says that the USAPA is "an open door for government to browse into our records." USAPA supporters say civil libertarians and privacy advocates are hand-wringing as usual, missing the fact that the USAPA gives the government what it needs to combat terrorism while respecting Americans' privacy rights. "There won't be any problems if the government obeys the law and keeps within the restrictions," says Michael Woods, former head of the FBI's National Security Law Unit. But the FBI has had uneasy relations with librarians in the past. In 1987, the American Library Association (ALA) received a call from a librarian in New York who said that two FBI agents had been asking staff about what citizens of "hostile sovereign nations" were reading. During the months after the story broke in the press, the ALA was inundated by calls from libraries around the country that had received similar visits. "We documented 23 cases," says Judith Krug, who since 1967 has been fighting for library privacy rights as director of intellectual freedom division of the ALA, an advocacy group with over 63,000 members. "In retrospect, it was absolutely bizarre. There's a history of people attempting to use circulation records to impugn motives because of what people have read, but that took the prize." Soon after, the FBI discontinued its "Library Awareness" program, which Krug and others were shocked to find out had been going on for decades. Traditionally, book purchases and library records have been protected from law enforcement searches in ways that other records are not. Libraries, which have been fighting off attempts to view their records for decades, have statutes in 48 states and the District of Columbia prohibiting librarians from releasing lending information without proper legal authority. In fact, most lending software sold during the past eight years automatically disengages the borrower's name from the book or other material once it's returned, though that information remains in backup logs until the logs are erased. Although there are no specific statutes protecting book sales records, the courts have required that law enforcement demonstrate a "compelling need" to the court before issuing or enforcing subpoenas or search warrants for bookstore records. USAPA dramatically changes the way law enforcement accesses bookstore and library information. The law's Section 215 greatly expands the authority of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) and allows investigators to use it to gather business records -- which include library circulation information and bookstore purchases -- by merely certifying that the records are relevant to a foreign intelligence investigation. FISA warrants are issued by a special judge in a secret FISA court and prohibit the participants from telling anyone besides an attorney that they have been contacted for the information. Theresa Chmara, an attorney who has written amicus briefs for the ALA and ABFFE in other First Amendment cases, says the USAPA largely removes booksellers' and librarians' ability to contest the legality of these requests and makes it almost impossible to monitor how, and how often, the searches are being conducted. "Any time the public believes what they're borrowing or reading will be under surveillance, it will have them thinking twice," Chmara says. "It'll go through people's minds if they want to learn more about the Taliban or Islam as they're reaching for the shelf." No one knows how many USAPA requests have been made since USAPA became law in October, because of the built-in gag order. But a few individual librarians around the country admit they've received requests. Gary Strong, director of the Queens, N.Y. library -- which has the largest circulation of any U.S. library -- confirms that he has received USAPA requests, but he says the law prevents him from revealing more than that. "It makes you realize your library is very much involved in what's going on," says Strong, who recently spoke at an ALA meeting about how librarians should comply with USAPA. The ALA's Krug says that there has been a noticeable increase in requests for information about privacy issues from libraries around the country. Before Sept. 11, Krug says she fielded an average of one call a month from a librarian or library asking about privacy issues, but in the months after Sept. 11 she was getting two or three a week. The ALA sent out information to librarians about what to do if they received a USAPA request and offered to put librarians in touch with an attorney without asking questions and jeopardizing the librarian's compliance with the gag order. Krug says that since Sept. 11 she has received a few of these requests for lawyers, but beyond that she doesn't know how many libraries have been approached. USAPA's reach extends beyond bookshelves. After home and work, the library is the third leading place where Americans access the Internet: over 95 percent of libraries offer Internet access, and a recent study of Internet usage by the U.S. Department of Commerce shows that a growing number of people use library computers for personal use instead of places like work, where many companies monitor their employees usage. Also, libraries are one of the foremost places that bridge the so- called "digital divide," offering people who do not have Internet access a place to do research, brush up their job skills, or just browse. Libraries even attract those who already have the Internet because of the search and support help that librarians provide. "The means for providing information have changed dramatically in terms of providing technology access," says Mary Minow, a Librarylaw.com consultant who is working on a book about library law for the ALA. "There are lines in most libraries for people to get onto the terminals. The technology is bringing in a wide range of people, people that have never been into the library before." USAPA expands the use of "roving wiretaps," Minow explains, which in addition to allowing the monitoring of phone conversations also permits tracking of a suspect's Internet use on whatever computer they use, including library computers. What disturbs librarians is that once the order is placed, the Internet monitoring indiscriminately records the Net usage of other users at the same time. But perhaps the biggest change in Internet surveillance is the expansion of "pen / trap" orders, an investigatory tool originally designed to give police a list of phone numbers a suspect called and received. Updated by the USAPA to catch up with advances in technology, pen / trap orders now cover electronic communications, which is especially troubling to civil libertarians because to use a pen / trap, authorities need only certify that such surveillance is relevant to an ongoing investigation -- and it gives law enforcement access to a wealth of information far more comprehensive than a list of phone numbers. It allows authorities to gather all information about e-mail messages (but not their actual content), URLs, sites visited, and other specific information about Internet usage. But unlike wiretap orders, which after a certain period of time compel authorities to disclose to the suspect that he or she had been under surveillance, there is no similar requirement for pen / trap orders. This means that law enforcement could collect and keep information about someone's online activities without ever telling the person who was monitored. (The only way someone would find out is if they were later charged with a crime and the evidence was used in court.) Minow says the implication of the USAPA for electronic freedom is "a patriot missile, not a patriot act." Librarians worry that Sept. 11 will have other impacts on inquiry and intellectual freedom. The United States Geological Survey, for instance, recently ordered federal depository libraries to destroy a CD-ROM with information about national water systems. Francis Buckley, superintendent of documents at the U.S. Government Printing Office, says it was the first time he knew of that an order to destroy information to keep it from the public was sent out. After the order, FBI agents in Arkansas visited five libraries to make sure the CD-ROM was destroyed -- one librarian had only taken the CD- ROM out of circulation, and the agents confiscated it. Lynn Bradley, director of government relations at the ALA, says that although the order to remove one CD-ROM is not cause for widespread alarm, "if there is an increase in removed information or if the updates or certain records or publications were not being put out anymore, that would be a problem." In addition, the government has removed large amounts of information from public Web sites. "The scope of what has been removed is vast, and it has been done without any policy guidance or careful vetting," says OMB Watch, a nonprofit watchdog group that promotes government accountability and has monitored what types of information have been removed since Sept. 11. OMB Watch also notes that other access to public information -- such as public reading rooms -- is now more restricted. Bradley says the ALA is organizing a group of librarians to monitor the government restriction of information, to see what information is being taken down and if and how the information is later returned. Strong says that the most important thing librarians can do to protect privacy rights is to make sure they understand the new laws, have their privacy policy up-to-date, and know what to do if the FBI contacts them. "It doesn't come home until a marshal or the FBI shows up with orders," says Strong. "Then it becomes real, but by that time it's too late to prepare." The FBI has made efforts to explain to librarians how it would use the new powers granted by the USAPA. At a Jan. 19, 2002, ALA meeting in New Orleans, the bureau sent Michael Woods, at that time the head of the bureau's National Security Law Unit, to speak to librarians about "compliance with the USA PATRIOT Act." Woods told Krug, Bradley, Strong and dozens of other librarians what the FBI would ask of librarians and how the librarians should respond to such requests. He stated that the days of badge- flashing and demanding records was over and that the agency would take care to follow all legal guidelines in their requests for information. Bradley says whether this proves to be true remains to be seen. "The jury's out on this," she says, "But there are a lot of people with long memories who have experienced firsthand inappropriate invasions and incursions of library records. But I'd like to think it's a new day." A month after speaking to the ALA, however, Woods took a new FBI assignment, and he no longer heads the bureau's National Security Law Unit. Still, he doesn't foresee much interaction between libraries and intelligence agencies. "From an FBI perspective, it's very rare for the FBI to interest themselves in libraries and rarer still to proceed to any point" where the new freedoms granted by the USAPA might come into play, Woods says, and he insists the act has enough safeguards to protect Americans' privacy rights. But many don't trust the FBI's claim that it will handle its new powers responsibly. The Electronic Privacy Information Center's annual report on civil liberties and electronic privacy has year after year named the U.S. government as one of the worst offenders when it comes to trying to bypass electronic privacy laws. And the American Civil Liberties Union's Web site documents a long history of FBI surveillance abuses over the past decades. "They don't have a good enough reputation to say, 'Don't worry, trust us,'" says Rachel King, legislative counsel for the ACLU's national office. "They can't be trusted. They've managed to offend the left, the right, and everyone in between." That history is what worries librarians and booksellers. "This law has the potential to be very harmful; that's why we have to be cautious," says Bradley. "People ask, 'Why are you interested in privacy when thousands of people were killed and there are soldiers at risk?' At the same time, we have in the United States a Constitution, a Bill of Rights, and all sorts of laws protecting privacy. One of the reasons we're fighting is to protect these rights that these people attacked us for in the first place. We don't want to have to relearn some of the mistakes of the past. Hopefully the FBI remembers and realizes that it's a new day." Copyright 2002 Salon.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From design at eskimo.com Thu Mar 7 18:20:39 2002 From: design at eskimo.com (Jim Loring) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 18:20:39 -0800 Subject: SCN: "cleaned up" logos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't really have a strong opinion on the logos - of the three from Noriko, I like the one in the middle as it's colorful and mixes the new with the old. Any of the logos will "work" AFAIK. But I must disagree with Randy here in that, hopefully everyone has had or will have had a chance to express an opinion on the logo. I think it will soon be time to "call for the question," chose one, and move on. Thanks - Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Randy Groves Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:16 PM To: Doug Schuler Cc: scn at scn.org; board at scn.org; tilocke at kcts.org Subject: Re: SCN: "cleaned up" logos Why don't we punt the whole 'new logo' issue for now and use one of these? I'd like us to get on to other, more important issues. I think that one of these - I personally perfer the 'stamp without the black border' (number 3) - combined with Lee's new web design suggestion would be very cool. That keeps us with one foot in our past and one striding off into the new future ... now we just have to avoid falling down ;-) -randy On Thu, 7 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > Noriko Okazaki spent some time "cleaning up" the scn logo. > The work is displayed at http://www.scn.org/commnet/logos.html. > > -- Doug > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.net Thu Mar 7 22:51:22 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.net (jmabel at speakeasy.net) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 22:51:22 -0800 Subject: SCN: Re: SCN cleaned up logos Message-ID: <200203080651.g286pM827761@spidey.speakeasy.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From emailer1 at netzero.net Fri Mar 8 02:58:55 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 02:58:55 -0800 Subject: SCN: logo ideas References: Message-ID: <007001c1c691$80073c80$7152fea9@desktop> Joe, Good comments. I share much of your list of things that are "broken." (I'd say "incomplete.") I feel that the difficult SCNA has in getting funding is part of the problem, because we are forced to limp along with limited technology. We do wonders with what we have, it's just that what we have is, as one person put it, "clunky." The SCNA techies (Ops Committee) does absolute magic with limited resources. I particularly appreciated your specificly mentioning that - we seem to have lost sight of providing service for the most disadvantaged which approximates what is available to other people. Perhaps it is time to re-assess the short-term, AND the long-term goals of SCNA. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Mabel To: patrick fisher Cc: Terry Trimingham ; Doug Schuler ; Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 10:45 PM Subject: Re: SCN: logo ideas > So maybe "Placing communities on the web" would make sense (although I still see > supporting cyberspace "democracy" as even more central to our mission than > "community"), but "technology" has certainly not been our emphasis. We don't > even continue to have a program to pass used computers to those who need them. > > It seems to me that this effort to revisit a slogan is putting the cart before > the horse. If it is time to reconsider our mission (and perhaps it is), we > should have some serious discussion of that mission, develop something like a > consensus (which, if there is no broad consensus, may be painful and may > involve some people leaving the group, hopefully not in anger but to start > groups that focus more in their areas of concern). Then when we agree what we > are doing, if our current slogan is inappropriate to our new mission, it is > time to change the slogan. > > What is broken about SCN(A)? In my viev: > - we seem to have lost sight of providing service for the most disadvantaged > which approximates what is available to other people. > - we have a lot of bickering, blaming, and flaming that discourages active > participation by capable people. > - we have not become expert at deploying volunteers to maximum advantage. > - we have fallen far short of our early goal of being innovators, of > constituting a model for others in using technology in service to democracy. > - we do not, in my opinion, constitute one of the easiest ways to get local, > public-minded content onto the Web. > - we have never developed any ability at all to truly support other > likeminded endeavors. > > All of that said, I still think the group has enormous potential and an > appropriate (if somewhat vague) mission. I'm glad to have the Peace Heathens' > Crisis Resource Directory be hosted as part of SCN. I'm glad to have it up there > with no ads and no censorship. I'm glad to have it up there as something to > strengthen SCN's content offering. But where on SCN are ten other sites equally > vital to Seattle? Where is the technology that would make our Crisis > Resource Directory easily searchable? Where is the community (yes, community) of > other organizations with web content on SCN with which we can share ideas about > mutually strengthening our offerings? What is SCN doing that it wasn't doing > five years ago to help those most in need of such information have access to it? > What are we doing to work with the disadvantaged rather than merely for them? > > I am in the ironic situation of posing all of these questions from my current > office in Bucharest, Romania. I'm not in the ideal position to be part of a > Seattle-based community at this moment. The internet is an amazing thing: it > allows me to actively participate in this discussion from the far edge of > Europe. The question to me is, what are we doing to make it equally likely for > someone to participate from the far edge of South Park, White Center, or Yesler > Terrace? What are we doing to build democracy in the USA? > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Wed, 6 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > I see "Powering our Communities with Technology" to mean that communities, groups > > can use SCN to have a web site to broadcast information about themselves via a media > > that is accessible to all. That is my take on it. > > > > Second, please, please tell me what needs to be fixed with SCN. From your point. I > > have asked. And what is it that us web update people can do to fix it? I don't do > > hardware. I don't do software. A few of us topic editors who update the pages are > > good at what they do and are not hardware/software people. If the problem lies > > there, what is it that we can do when we do not have those skills? Please tell me. > > > > There are other more pressing problems. Do all of the volunteers jump in and work > > only on those items and ignore everything else? > > > > What is wrong with fixing up a car by having a few people working on the engine and > > a few painting and detailing? Should we all be working on the engine? Please tell > > me, I'd like to know. > > > > And if the site looks great and updated, will that not bring in more donations? > > Leaving the front end in neglect while working on the engine only will be our > > savior? > > > > Mainly, many people have said that there are more pressing issues for SCN. HOwever, > > no one has mentioned specifically what those things are. > > > > Also, to reiterate, an organization putting a web site up for free on SCN, void of > > ads, is in my opinion, "Powering our communities with technology". Maybe it isn't > > the total answer, but I think SCN does a great job at what it can do. > > > > Off my soapbox, > > Patrick > > > > > > > > --- Terry Trimingham wrote: > > > > > > > > > I agree with Doug on this one. > > > > > > SCN was created to allow all people access to technology. "Democratic > > > technology for all." It is still true, we still allow the have-nots access > > > to the internet. > > > > > > On the other hand, we are archaic, klunky, and hard to use compared to > > > most technology available today. "Powering our communities with > > > technology" implies that we have something slick to offer, and we don't. I > > > think it is VERY misleading to use this phrase as our slogan. > > > > > > And, I agree with Joe. There are so many other things wrong with SCN than > > > the logo and the slogan, it would be better to focus on those things, > > > rather than try to "fix" something that hasn't yet broken. > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I don't like the logo change idea and I don't like the > > > > slogan change idea. > > > > > > > > "Democratic Technology for all" is more inclusive and broad. > > > > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" is technocratic. > > > > > > > > I would think that we'd rather put the emphasis on DEMOCRACY > > > > not on TECHNOLOGY. > > > > > > > > Can somebody remind me why this is happening? > > > > > > > > -- Doug > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > > > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > > > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > > > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > > > * is being shaped today. * > > > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > > > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. The logo issue is out of my hands, as far as I know. > > > > > > > > > > There will be a different slogan. I think it is: Powering Our Communities with > > > > > Technology. > > > > > > > > > > It would be nice, as you say, to have different variations of the logos for > > > > > different uses. > > > > > > > > > > I will put the PDF up on a web page. I will have to take a screen sshot and > > > past it > > > > > as an image, though. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > > > Any logo with relatively small letters in the design (e.g. the "democratic > > > > > > technology for all" writtenrat the bottom) is liable to scale down badly. > > > > > > Before adopting it, we should play with how it scales down and consider > > > whether > > > > > > it will be acceptable at the smallsst size we intend to use. > > > > > > > > > > > > One standard solution to this is to adopt several variations of a logo 3-5 > > > > > > different sizes, possibly a color and a B&W version at each size. Major > > > graphic > > > > > > elements should stay the same, but details may vary: for example, text might > > > not > > > > > > be exactly proportional at the different sizes, to improve readability. > > > > > > > > > > > > In any event, rather than sending candidate logos out by PDF through email, > > > > > > can't we please post them on SCN itself somewhere & have one central place > > > > > > people can look at the possibiities? > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, I do sense a bit af rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic here: > > > > > > Except for people who have no other SCN activities they can contribute to, > > > this > > > > > > seems like a pretty low-return use of volunteer time. I would not put a new > > > > > > > > > logo among SCN's 50 greatest needs at the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are some logo ideas in PDF format. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please make specific, exact comments on what you like or do not like > > > > > > > about the logos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everyone's comments will be taken into consideration. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If PDF does not work for you, please let me know and I will work > > > > > > > something out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > > > Webmaster > > > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > > > Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! > > > > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > Webmaster > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Fri Mar 8 07:28:52 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 07:28:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: clearly no longer Re: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: <20020307201945.76318.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't have time right now to go all the directions I might from here; I'm just going to dash off some quick notes. Please excuse any typos: bad East European internet connect, usually I proofread, but I'm in a hurry to get somewhere. Various points, heavily snipped rom earlier email 1) Patrick, I wasn't asking you to singlehandedly fix what I see as wrong with SCN(A). You asked what I ttought ghe big problems are. I answered. 2)> Ti Locke has the Computer Giveaway program. It's tied to SCN and was supposed to be > updated on SCN, but wasn't. News to me. An SCNA board member (who wiwl remain nameless) told me we no longer have a computer giveaway program worth mentihning and to removemaol mention of it from the Communications page of the Crisis Resource Directory. If that is no longer true, and if there is somewhere that peop le/groups in need can now apply to get a computeer please pass me the info to post tpere. If SCN(A) is devoting anyignificant resources to this (which I thihk would be very valuable) that would be more than news. Right now, if someone wants to help with an effort like this, as far as I can tell they couldn't even look at our site & see where to volunter. 3) > > What is broken about SCN(A)? In my viev: > > - we seem to have lost sight of providing service for the most disadvantaged > > which approximates what is available to other people. > > Not to be critical, but could you give some specifics? Yes. We provide internet connect, but nou one that will allow a graphical browser.. How's that for not what nost peohle can get from the internet? 4)> > - we have a lot of bickering, blaming, and flaming that discourages active > > participation by capable people. > > I don't really see this as a problem. Things aren't too bad for a mailing list. > Certainly no worse than any other. Then you've just worked with a buch of lousy, bickering groups. I've almost been driven to quit by the tone of some of these online discussions. Other good particrpants/volunteers HAVE been driven to quit. I work with the Peace Heathens. We are a compareably large & diverse group. I can't remember a single flame mail in 5 years except one from someone who was quitting. 5)> > - we have not become expert at deploying volunteers to maximum advantage. > > I disagree here, from my vantage point. We've brought on some very capable topic > editors and they are all gung-ho for SCN. They do a remarkable job. The editors are fine, but if you look at our mrssion broadly, you con hardly saying that te are doing the most that could be done to build for and to promote our vision os what the internet and such could be. 6) > > - we have fallen far short of our early goal of being innovators, of > > constituting a model for others in using technology in service to democracy. > > That is one bite that is bigger than I can chew. That can encompass so much. Fine, you aren't the one to do this. Cool. But where is t group within SCNA I can hook up to work on things larger than SCN itself? ANswer: probably nowhere. 7)> > - we do not, in my opinion, constitute one of the easiest ways to get lo[Bcal, > > public-minded content onto the Web. > > I don't believe it is any harder than any other site. It's not too bad. If there is > something that can be fixed, please make a suggestion and I will look at it. I will > admit, though, that making the content on SCN more concise would be very helpful and > I'm working on that! SCN's tools for online editing etc. are so much less good than Speakeasy's that I maintain my site by building it in a directory on Speakeesy, they ftp'ing it to SCN. If I wasn't an IP, I wouldn't even have that option. 8)> > - we have never developed any ability at all to truly support other > > likeminded endeavors. > > Give me a list and I will take a look. Could you be a little more specific on this > issue? AgAin, I'm not asaing you personally to solve this. But whhat is SCNA really do[Ding to help influence for the better how the City of Seattle provides information on its site? WhWt aretwe dointo support computing centers at comcunity centers? what are we doing to support computer access for the homeless? What are we doing to make itt possible for poor people whout a lot of tech savvy to get their content onto the web in a way tha[Dt looks gosd & reaches people? Answer: a little, but not much. Anyone think these questions sound less important rhan a new logo? JM * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Mar 8 08:06:23 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 08:06:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: http://www.scn.org/~lee/scntesta.html Message-ID: <20020308160623.59347.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> The above is the new link to Lee's site redesign idea. The link had changed and some people had asked about it. http://www.scn.org/~lee/scntesta.html Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Mar 8 10:25:26 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 10:25:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN cleaned up logos In-Reply-To: <200203080651.g286pM827761@spidey.speakeasy.net> Message-ID: <20020308182526.11261.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> To Everyone, I think it should be made clear that it is the board that will make the decisions. People can give their input, but it is not us who will make the final determinations. I'd love to have my way, but I know that is not my role. And not my right. I do what I signed up for and that is that. If everyone would like to know how the funders have felt about SCN's current look, please let me know and I will get the info. I will have more information to post on Webmaster Notes, a page you can access from the home page. I will continue to update it as meetings occur and/or new information comes up. Patrick --- jmabel at speakeasy.net wrote: > I think any of these look better than our current logo, and even a little more > "cleaning" might be in order (yes, Mercury's legs do look stunted). I think these > look every bit as good as the others we've seen and provide far more continuity > with an already established identity. > > If we adopt one of these, we also might want to consider a second, stripped-down > B&W logo with the same elements in the same arrangement; in particular, it might > look better at small sizes. The small version of our current logo > (http://www.scn.org/images/stamp/stamp05.gif) could use cleanup far more > desperately than this large one. > > On 07 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > Noriko Okazaki spent some time "cleaning up" > > the scn logo. The work is displayed at > > http://www.scn.org/commnet/logos.html. > > > > -- Doug > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner > > * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a > > message to: majordomo at scn.org In the > > body of the message, type: unsubscribe > > scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also > > ==== available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * > > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * > > * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Fri Mar 8 17:21:28 2002 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:21:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: <20020307201945.76318.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > - we have not become expert at deploying volunteers to maximum advantage. > > I disagree here, from my vantage point. We've brought on some very capable topic > editors and they are all gung-ho for SCN. They do a remarkable job. Patrick, The content of the 3,000 or more items in the Community menus is about six months out of date in general. It's been that long since any serious, comprehensive editorial research has been done to dig out what is going on on the Web in the city and in western Washington. You and your people have basically dabbled at a few items per week, it seems to me. Each editor should be researching dozens of likely items a day, to keep the SCN directory from becoming less and less relevant to what is happening this year in the region. (This doesn't mean that most of the sites researched should be added to the directory.) Another six months of the current level of editorial neglect will probably make the site out-of-date enough that people will start not to view it as a good current directory. > > - we do not, in my opinion, constitute one of the easiest ways to get local, > > public-minded content onto the Web. > > I don't believe it is any harder than any other site. It's not too bad. > [...] Nonprofits have been voting with their feet on this. SCN has been losing hosted nonprofits at a high rate this year. The board's goal for 2001 was an increase of 75 hosted sites. Instead we have had a net loss of about 50. That's a difference, between expectations and reality, of about 125 nonprofit orgs. SCN has lowered its service levels repeatedly this year, and has done almost nothing really significant to stay current in Web hosting. Adding 75 nonprofit sites looked entirely reasonable and practical at the beginning of 2001, based on results from 2000. But instead, Information Provider coordination was discontinued, we have had generally hostile and bad user service, and have suffered many service cuts with no prior notice given to the IPs. All or almost all of the service reductions have been chalked up to security. You know, it's really easy to become more secure by cutting services. Any wingnut with a Unix manual can do that. What's necessary for SCN, or any ISP, to do is to maintain that same level of security while offering the many and varied good and useful new and old services that people want and need. Every successful ISP has to do that well enough. Consistently taking the easy way out on this issue has led SCN down the primrose path. Web hosting was the only remaining service that was still on the upswing in 2000. Now, looking at the decline of this one last service that was doing pretty well until Operations took it over and shut out the non-technical people that had made it work in a reasonable way, I think SCN might have about another six months left under its current administration before some other organization in the Seattle area supplants it entirely for nonprofit Web hosting. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Mar 8 17:54:46 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:54:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020309015446.32299.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Rod, Thank you for the information. We have four 4 web editors and we are doing what we can with the time that we have. If you would like to pitch in, or find more volunteers to recruit, please be my guest. Operations is getting things together. It takes time. And hopefully, we can take advantage of the current recession and unemployed who have time on their hands to help out. I don't see things as having not improved. Things are as they have been, operations-wise. JJ is doing what he can to get things fixed and hopefully, we can get others to pitch in and help out on his end of things. There are many irons in the fire right now. Services will be added for all to use, like stock CGIs. What are the service reductions? Lament as you will, but please give some specific examples of things that have happened to drive hosting away, what the problems are, and what can be done to improve it. Then I will pass that information along. Please, if you haven't done so already, take a look at my webmaster's notes, which you can reach via the home page. Just don't use Navigator 4 as it is buggy enough to not render my notes. That will be fixed this weekend, though. Patrick --- Rod Clark wrote: > > > - we have not become expert at deploying volunteers to maximum advantage. > > > > I disagree here, from my vantage point. We've brought on some very capable topic > > editors and they are all gung-ho for SCN. They do a remarkable job. > > Patrick, > > The content of the 3,000 or more items in the Community menus > is about six months out of date in general. It's been that long > since any serious, comprehensive editorial research has been > done to dig out what is going on on the Web in the city and in > western Washington. You and your people have basically dabbled > at a few items per week, it seems to me. Each editor should be > researching dozens of likely items a day, to keep the SCN > directory from becoming less and less relevant to what is > happening this year in the region. (This doesn't mean that most > of the sites researched should be added to the directory.) > > Another six months of the current level of editorial neglect > will probably make the site out-of-date enough that people will > start not to view it as a good current directory. > > > > > - we do not, in my opinion, constitute one of the easiest ways to get local, > > > public-minded content onto the Web. > > > > I don't believe it is any harder than any other site. It's not too bad. > > [...] > > Nonprofits have been voting with their feet on this. SCN has > been losing hosted nonprofits at a high rate this year. The > board's goal for 2001 was an increase of 75 hosted sites. > Instead we have had a net loss of about 50. That's a difference, > between expectations and reality, of about 125 nonprofit orgs. > SCN has lowered its service levels repeatedly this year, and has > done almost nothing really significant to stay current in Web > hosting. > > Adding 75 nonprofit sites looked entirely reasonable and > practical at the beginning of 2001, based on results from 2000. > But instead, Information Provider coordination was discontinued, > we have had generally hostile and bad user service, and have > suffered many service cuts with no prior notice given to the > IPs. > > All or almost all of the service reductions have been chalked > up to security. You know, it's really easy to become more secure > by cutting services. Any wingnut with a Unix manual can do that. > What's necessary for SCN, or any ISP, to do is to maintain that > same level of security while offering the many and varied good > and useful new and old services that people want and need. Every > successful ISP has to do that well enough. Consistently taking > the easy way out on this issue has led SCN down the primrose > path. > > Web hosting was the only remaining service that was still on > the upswing in 2000. Now, looking at the decline of this one > last service that was doing pretty well until Operations took it > over and shut out the non-technical people that had made it work > in a reasonable way, I think SCN might have about another six > months left under its current administration before some other > organization in the Seattle area supplants it entirely for > nonprofit Web hosting. > > Rod Clark > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Mar 8 18:21:00 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 18:21:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: clearly no longer Re: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020309022100.83747.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Joe, Thanks for the feedback. I'll respond with the information I have at my disposal. Comments follow: The Computer Giveaway seems to be an annual thing. Please don't quote me on this, but I'm assuming there is to be a big thing going on around this time. Ti Locke, the SCN President, did the copy on this as she runs this program. The copy was supposed to be put up and I it didn't happen as someone was supposed to do this. I would have done it, but not until today, I did not have access to the SCNA directory. I got access and asked Ti today if she wouldn't mind sending me the copy so I can put it up. She redid the other sections of SCNA as well, including the volunteer section. Boy, was that a mess! We both agreed that it should be simplified. Will keep you posted on this. We have also simplified the volunteer process and made it more efficient. I have user names and passwords to give out once I meet a volunteer who has been through orientation. That speeds things up quite a bit. Graphical connection: I wanted this as badly as anyone else, however PPP dial-up is prohibitively expensive. Well, I suppose we could have it, but only so many people at a time could dial in. Options have been explored, like talking to the local ISPs about partnering, but many are going out of business. It's a tough business, and it's expensive. Yes, this mailing list is not that bad. I am on many, and have been on many for many, many years, nearly 13 now, and this mailing list does pretty good. We are hashing things out now and being civil. It's a passionate issue, SCN, and people can get passionate. But I don't see it as that bad. I really don't! As for making things easier, FTP would be nice. Of course, we'd need a volunteer or two to take on working on making SCN more secure for FTP to happen on a grand scale. Please elaborate on what the editors can do. I'm new to this, as well as them, and as gifted as they are, they or I can't guess for what else needs to be done. The libraries are doing quite a bit to get people access and teach them. Not that we can't do it. But if you read Wade's notes on volunteering, many people simply do not show up for email classes, even though they have signed up. I've opened a can of worms here, on this issue, so I will leave this issue open and not comment further. It's something to discuss. Yes, there are more important things than the logo, but we do what we can do with the resources that we have. It is imperative that we get the site updated. Potential funders have made explicit comments about the site. If we are to get money to keep functioning, then we need to listen. So, with that, I will do what I can to recruit and fix up SCN. Let me point out that the lawsuit against SCN took a lot out of people. Took their passion away. Similar to the way Clinton's aides were taken to court and whipped and drained of their savings, they lost their passion and quit. I've generalized on this point, so please don't take it as gospel. I was wondering what was going on for awhile. And you know, I realized that this is a wonderful opportunity for me to do what I can at SCN. Ti Locke has been a great deal of help, as well as the other volunteers. Please, give us some time and you will see that things will get better. I didn't intend this letter to be defensive or to a rebuttal in any way. Just trying to bridge the information gap and keep everyone informed. Things will get better. Hang in there! Bear with us! Thanks! Patrick --- Joe Mabel wrote: > I don't have time right now to go all the directions I might from here; I'm just > going to dash off some quick notes. Please excuse any typos: bad East European > internet connect, usually I proofread, but I'm in a hurry to get somewhere. > > Various points, heavily snipped rom earlier email > > 1) Patrick, I wasn't asking you to singlehandedly fix what I see as wrong with > SCN(A). You asked what I ttought ghe big problems are. I answered. > > 2)> Ti Locke has the Computer Giveaway program. It's tied to SCN and was supposed > to be > > updated on SCN, but wasn't. > News to me. An SCNA board member (who wiwl remain nameless) told me we no longer > have a computer giveaway program worth mentihning and to removemaol mention of > it from the Communications page of the Crisis Resource Directory. If that is no > longer true, and if there is somewhere that peop le/groups in need can now apply > to get a computeer please pass me the info to post tpere. If SCN(A) is devoting > anyignificant resources to this (which I thihk would be very valuable) that > would be more than news. > Right now, if someone wants to help with an effort like this, as far as I can > tell they couldn't even look at our site & see where to volunter. > > > 3) > > What is broken about SCN(A)? In my viev: > > > - we seem to have lost sight of providing service for the most disadvantaged > > > which approximates what is available to other people. > > > > Not to be critical, but could you give some specifics? > Yes. We provide internet connect, but nou one that will allow a graphical > browser.. How's that for not what nost peohle can get from the internet? > > 4)> > - we have a lot of bickering, blaming, and flaming that discourages active > > > participation by capable people. > > > > I don't really see this as a problem. Things aren't too bad for a mailing list. > > Certainly no worse than any other. > Then you've just worked with a buch of lousy, bickering groups. I've almost been > driven to quit by the tone of some of these online discussions. Other good > particrpants/volunteers HAVE been driven to quit. > I work with the Peace Heathens. We are a compareably large & diverse group. I > can't remember a single flame mail in 5 years except one from someone who > was quitting. > > 5)> > - we have not become expert at deploying volunteers to maximum advantage. > > > > I disagree here, from my vantage point. We've brought on some very capable topic > > editors and they are all gung-ho for SCN. They do a remarkable job. > The editors are fine, but if you look at our mrssion broadly, you con hardly > saying that te are doing the most that could be done to build for and to promote > our vision os what the internet and such could be. > > 6) > > - we have fallen far short of our early goal of being innovators, of > > > constituting a model for others in using technology in service to democracy. > > > > That is one bite that is bigger than I can chew. That can encompass so much. > Fine, you aren't the one to do this. Cool. But where is t group within SCNA I > can hook up to work on things larger than SCN itself? ANswer: probably nowhere. > > 7)> > - we do not, in my opinion, constitute one of the easiest ways to get > lo[Bcal, > > > public-minded content onto the Web. > > > > I don't believe it is any harder than any other site. It's not too bad. If there > is > > something that can be fixed, please make a suggestion and I will look at it. I > will > > admit, though, that making the content on SCN more concise would be very helpful > and > > I'm working on that! > SCN's tools for online editing etc. are so much less good than Speakeasy's that > I maintain my site by building it in a directory on Speakeesy, they ftp'ing it > to SCN. If I wasn't an IP, I wouldn't even have that option. > > 8)> > - we have never developed any ability at all to truly support other > > > likeminded endeavors. > > > > Give me a list and I will take a look. Could you be a little more specific on > this > > issue? > AgAin, I'm not asaing you personally to solve this. But whhat is SCNA really > do[Ding to help influence for the better how the City of Seattle provides > information on its site? WhWt aretwe dointo support computing centers at > comcunity centers? what are we doing to support computer access for the > homeless? What are we doing to make itt possible for poor people whout a lot of > tech savvy to get their content onto the web in a way tha[Dt looks gosd & > reaches people? Answer: a little, but not much. > > Anyone think these questions sound less important rhan a new logo? > > JM > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From design at eskimo.com Sat Mar 9 01:03:23 2002 From: design at eskimo.com (Jim Loring) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 01:03:23 -0800 Subject: SCN: logo ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rod - Interesting post. I have a couple questions for you. As a new web editor (I've taken the Transportation pages) and did some re-work on them. I still think Transportation sucks, but I've tried to keep the more up-to-date and hopefully informative. But I think you're partially correct in that, one glance at the server logs indicate a disappointing number of page hits. I can't really comment on your last four paragraphs, but was hoping you could expand a bit on "serious, comprehensive editorial research [has been done] to dig out what is going on on the Web in the city and in western Washington." Now I'm not being deliberately obtuse, but I'm a bit vague on the notion of editorial research in this context. What *result* from editorial research would you like to see in Transportation specifically, and expand on that so we'll have some indication about what you think should be added. Inquiring minds wanna know. Cheers! - Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Rod Clark Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 5:21 PM To: patrick fisher Cc: Joe Mabel; Terry Trimingham; Doug Schuler; scn at scn.org Subject: Re: SCN: logo ideas > > - we have not become expert at deploying volunteers to maximum advantage. > > I disagree here, from my vantage point. We've brought on some very capable topic > editors and they are all gung-ho for SCN. They do a remarkable job. Patrick, The content of the 3,000 or more items in the Community menus is about six months out of date in general. It's been that long since any serious, comprehensive editorial research has been done to dig out what is going on on the Web in the city and in western Washington. You and your people have basically dabbled at a few items per week, it seems to me. Each editor should be researching dozens of likely items a day, to keep the SCN directory from becoming less and less relevant to what is happening this year in the region. (This doesn't mean that most of the sites researched should be added to the directory.) Another six months of the current level of editorial neglect will probably make the site out-of-date enough that people will start not to view it as a good current directory. > > - we do not, in my opinion, constitute one of the easiest ways to get local, > > public-minded content onto the Web. > > I don't believe it is any harder than any other site. It's not too bad. > [...] Nonprofits have been voting with their feet on this. SCN has been losing hosted nonprofits at a high rate this year. The board's goal for 2001 was an increase of 75 hosted sites. Instead we have had a net loss of about 50. That's a difference, between expectations and reality, of about 125 nonprofit orgs. SCN has lowered its service levels repeatedly this year, and has done almost nothing really significant to stay current in Web hosting. Adding 75 nonprofit sites looked entirely reasonable and practical at the beginning of 2001, based on results from 2000. But instead, Information Provider coordination was discontinued, we have had generally hostile and bad user service, and have suffered many service cuts with no prior notice given to the IPs. All or almost all of the service reductions have been chalked up to security. You know, it's really easy to become more secure by cutting services. Any wingnut with a Unix manual can do that. What's necessary for SCN, or any ISP, to do is to maintain that same level of security while offering the many and varied good and useful new and old services that people want and need. Every successful ISP has to do that well enough. Consistently taking the easy way out on this issue has led SCN down the primrose path. Web hosting was the only remaining service that was still on the upswing in 2000. Now, looking at the decline of this one last service that was doing pretty well until Operations took it over and shut out the non-technical people that had made it work in a reasonable way, I think SCN might have about another six months left under its current administration before some other organization in the Seattle area supplants it entirely for nonprofit Web hosting. Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From donlogs at cablespeed.com Sat Mar 9 08:37:14 2002 From: donlogs at cablespeed.com (Don Logsdon) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 08:37:14 -0800 Subject: SCN: logo ideas References: Message-ID: <001b01c1c788$ab778120$f3ccff40@cablespeed.com> As always (in my opinion) Joe Mable is right on target. He wrote to us (in part) ... <--------- quote ---------> What is broken about SCN(A)? In my view: - we seem to have lost sight of providing service for the most disadvantaged which approximates what is available to other people. - we have a lot of bickering, blaming, and flaming that discourages active participation by capable people. - we have not become expert at deploying volunteers to maximum advantage. - we have fallen far short of our early goal of being innovators, of constituting a model for others in using technology in service to democracy. - we do not, in my opinion, constitute one of the easiest ways to get local, public-minded content onto the Web. - we have never developed any ability at all to truly support other likeminded endeavors. All of that said, I still think the group has enormous potential and an appropriate (if somewhat vague) mission. I'm glad to have the Peace Heathens' Crisis Resource Directory be hosted as part of SCN. I'm glad to have it up there with no ads and no censorship. I'm glad to have it up there as something to strengthen SCN's content offering. But where on SCN are ten other sites equally vital to Seattle? Where is the technology that would make our Crisis Resource Directory easily searchable? Where is the community (yes, community) of other organizations with web content on SCN with which we can share ideas about mutually strengthening our offerings? What is SCN doing that it wasn't doing five years ago to help those most in need of such information have access to it? What are we doing to work with the disadvantaged rather than merely for them? I am in the ironic situation of posing all of these questions from my current office in Bucharest, Romania. I'm not in the ideal position to be part of a Seattle-based community at this moment. The internet is an amazing thing: it allows me to actively participate in this discussion from the far edge of Europe. The question to me is, what are we doing to make it equally likely for someone to participate from the far edge of South Park, White Center, or Yesler Terrace? What are we doing to build democracy in the USA? Joe Mabel <--------- end quote ---------> Don Logsdon (206) 521-9086 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Mar 9 11:31:16 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 11:31:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: webmaster notes Message-ID: <20020309193116.90993.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Please stay tuned to my updates to 'webmaster notes'. I will be adding commentary and keep everyone up-to-date on what we are working on at SCN. Matters will include Discus discussion software, ftp access for all, logo, and other items of interest. You can access this page via the SCN homepage. However, for the meantime, please avoid using Netscape version 4 as it is buggy and will not render the page well. I will fix this. I'd like to get some kind of message board up for people to express their opinions on my comments. Thanks! Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Mon Mar 11 14:38:15 2002 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:38:15 -0800 Subject: SCN: Flexibility vs control Message-ID: <3C8CC157.28746.9A3D3D7@localhost> x-no-archive: yes =================== by Jonathan L. Zittrain, assistant professor at Harvard Law School and director of its Berkman Center for Internet & Society (NY Times)---Last month the top executives of two of the most powerful media companies in the world traveled to Washington to testify before Congress about the most dangerous threat they face: the American consumer. Of course, they didn't quite phrase it that way. Michael Eisner, chief executive of the Walt Disney Company, complained that the technology industry made it too easy for "people wanting to get anything for free on their television or computer or hand-held device." Peter Chernin, president of the News Corporation, worried that the Internet's "ability to empower the general public" would lead to the online theft of some of the contents of media companies' digital treasuries. Both men want the next generation of personal computers to be unable to deliver unauthorized movies, music and other content, and they asked that Congress stand ready to intervene if industry failed to deliver the necessary technology to safeguard its products. A lone executive, from Intel, objected. The market, he said, not Congress, should dictate how technology works. The debate on Capitol Hill between content providers like Disney and those who make the products to deliver that content, like Intel, was really a proxy for a much larger debate: What do we want our technology to do? How do we want it to work? And do we have any say in the matter? For most forms of current technology, these questions have long been settled. No executives are worried about illegal uses of televisions or coffee makers, for instance, and no consumers need to worry that these appliances will crash or become infected with viruses - and we would never accept it if they did. Our TV's and VCR's don't take ill when we watch infected programs, and our refrigerators never require rebooting. Yet we have come to tolerate such problems from our personal computers. The PC's fundamental and unique unreliability flows from its construction as a so-called flexible platform - a mere staging area for many kinds of software. The point (and bane) of a PC is, essentially, to run whatever software it encounters. There are plenty of reliable computers: the controls of the modern Airbus 340 are fully given over to a computer, and video-game consoles consistently work as advertised, as do Aegis missile cruisers, cellular telephones and digital watches. All contain transistors. Can technologists figure out how to replicate the reliability of airplanes, telephones, watches and televisions in future versions of Windows and Linux, so that a mischievous 12- year-old half a world away can't erase a thousand far-flung hard drives? Absolutely. In January Bill Gates sent a memo to all Microsoft employees declaring a new, overarching, even revolutionary mandate: Software must be reliable and "trustworthy." This new focus is both welcome and worrisome, because the very steps needed to secure our computers and networks can be the steps that will deaden them to continued innovation and creative uses - while opening them to more intrusive monitoring by mainstream technology manufacturers and content providers. Mr. Gates and the co-captains of his industry are producing blueprints for so-called "trusted" PC's. They will employ digital gatekeepers that act like the bouncers outside a nightclub, ensuring that only software that looks or behaves a certain way is allowed in. The result will be more reliable computing - and more control over the machine by the manufacturer or operating system maker, which essentially gives the bouncer her guest list. And as soon as there are limits on the software a PC can run, there will be limits on what PC users can do. That's exactly what executives like Mr. Eisner and Mr. Chernin want. They'd like software and hardware companies to build PC's to allow a publisher an exquisite level of control over a book or a song or a movie in the hands of a consumer. Trusted PC users might spend $1.95 for a single viewing of the latest Disney animated feature, or they might pay a similar amount for three listens of U2's most recent single. Security, stability, reliability - and control. Users may buy a trusted PC even if it won't show a digital video lent by a friend, because it will act less like a temperamental computer and more like a crash-free super-VCR - like the just- released Microsoft X-box. But in the process of "improving" our PC's, the manufacturers and their partners will be able to determine what software will and won't be allowed to run, what we can and can't do with the information to which we're exposed, and what data about our online activities will be collected and sent to the manufacturer or content provider to assist in future marketing. Apart from manufacturers' desire not to define the uses of a PC too narrowly, the public interest in flexible computer platforms and open data exchange remains almost entirely absent from this debate. Disney and its cohort are free to view PC's as delivery systems for Mickey Mouse and friends - and to make their content available through broadband. But it's an entirely different matter to re-engineer the PC so it becomes simply another appliance. The PC platform and the Internet to which it connects is the engine of the information revolution - as important to our economy and culture as all the movies in Hollywood. A shift from open platforms to closed appliances may be inevitable, as our consumerist desire for trustworthy PC's dovetails with information providers' obsession with control. But we should beware the haste with which some would sacrifice flexibility for control. If we can't at least temper this taming of the chaotic PC, the victims will be competition, innovation and consumer freedom. Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Tue Mar 12 15:23:39 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:23:39 -0800 Subject: SCN: Fw: Urgent call to UN: Stop The Fire - Separate the Forcess immediately] Message-ID: <005f01c1ca1f$7698b200$7152fea9@desktop> Urgent call to UN: Stop The Fire - Separate the ForcesI'm forwarding this to take advantage of the speed of cyber space. This petition could be delivered within a day. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lev Grinberg (by way of Moshe' Machover) To: moshe.machover at kcl.ac.uk Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:59 AM Subject: Urgent call to UN: Stop The Fire - Separate the Forcess immediately] From: Yehudith Harel Subject: Stop The Fire - Separate the Forcess immediately To: Lev Grinberg Message-id: <002801c1c7b7$d4c38310$0300000a at harelq9dxbilwd> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_AHnHFiu9szG8zNbhP4/4jA)" X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-priority: High X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Dear friends, Needless to elaborate on the seriousness of the situation that is escalating by the hour. We feel that we must try to make our voice heard. We intent to make this petition public as a press release, and possibly organize a Press Conference as well. In the wake of the current escalation, it seems that the International Public Opinion starts to understand the dead-end and the deteriorating situation created by Sharon, and therefore our voice may be heard. We don't want to waste time or money, therefore we hope that an impressive and quick collection of signatures released to the press is one way that might be effective. If you agree please send ASAP your name and location to: Yehudith Harel : ye_harel at netvision.net.il Second - please pass on this petition to your friends and ask them to sign as well. Thank you, Lev Grinberg Yehudit Harel STOP THE FIRE, SEPARATE THE FORCES! To Mr. Koffi Anan, We the undersigned, Israeli citizens, demand an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council to discuss the deteriorating situation in the occupied territories. Recent and current US policies in the region prove that the US is unable to act as a sole and fair broker in the Middle East conflict. Therefore, we call upon the UN Security Council to take a mandatory decision to deploy immediately emergency intervention forces to stop the bloodshed and the widening circle of violence and revenge. We believe that without a decisive, immediate and impartial international intervention, the circle of violence will expand and endanger the whole area. There is a palpable danger of massacres of hundreds of innocent people. The goal of the intervention of international forces must be to impose an immediate cease-fire, and to separate Israeli and Palestinian forces. We are aware that no intervention can be effective without a clear political plan for action. We suggest that such a plan should be shaped according to the following path: a. Israeli forces will withdraw from areas A and B and adjacent areas, that will be occupied by the UN intervention forces. The Israeli withdrawal must be total, including the dismantelment of the Jewish settlements in the vicinities of areas A and B. The redeployment must create a territorial continuity of liberated Palestinian areas that will be empty of IDF and Jewish settlers. b. The Palestinian Authorities will declare a comprehensive cease-fire. c. The international forces will be deployed aiming to separate between the IDF and the Palestinian civilian population thus protecting them and preventing further hostilities and futile bloodshed. d. An international Conference will be convened by the UN in order to discuss the implementation of the relevant UN resolutions, including the withdrawal of the Israeli forces to the 4th of June 1967 borders, the management of the Holly places, the just solution of the refugees question and the establishment of a fullly independent Palestinian State with its capital in East Jerusalem. We urge you to intervene immediately; every hour more and more innocent people are dying! Signatures: Lev Grinberg - Jerusalem Yehudith Harel - Ramat Ha Sharon Anat Bilecky - Jaffa Danny Rabinowitz - Tel Aviv Hatem Knaaneh - Shfa'amer Aharon Eviatar - Hofit Nitzan Rabinowitz - Ramat Hasharon Ron Kuzar - Jerusalem Gihad Bishara - Nazarreth Adi Ophir - Tel Aviv Orli Lubin - Tel Aviv Anat Matar - Ramat HaSharon Idith Zertal - Tel Aviv Baruch Kimmerling - Jerusalem Oren Yiftachel - Beer Sheva Zalman Amit - Tel Aviv Dafna Levitt - Tel Aviv -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From contact at mail.firstdigitalcall.net Wed Mar 13 07:53:57 2002 From: contact at mail.firstdigitalcall.net (Stock E-Advisory: AVTX) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:53:57 -0500 Subject: SCN: Aviation Technology Stock Opportunity Message-ID: <5724c01c1caa7$48b00950$515f9f40@athlon1330> www.firstdigitalcall.com E-Advisory! FACT SHEET This is your introduction to Advance Technologies, Inc. March 12, 2002 Advance Technologies Inc. Industry: Technology Exchange: OTCBB Symbol: AVTX High: $0.37 Low: $0.35 Previous Close: $0.365 on 4/12/02 Volume: 35,600 52 Week High: $1.75 52 Week Low: $0.32 Currency: US Dollar * Confirm all data with your broker or financial advisor before trading. RATING ***Strong BUY*** _____ Intermediate Term Target Price $5.00 COMPANY PROFILE _____ Makers of Enhanced Infrared Vision Technology Products! Advance Technologies Inc. is a developer of infrared Enhanced Vision technology and commercial solutions. The Company has a worldwide license from Hughes Aircraft Company, Los Angeles, California for a patented advanced infrared imaging system. Advance Technologies licenses and develops applied infrared Enhanced Vision solutions for diverse industries including aviation, recreational vehicles, commercial trucking, marine, security and fire fighting. On October 16, 2001, Gulfstream Aerospace Corporation, a wholly owned subsidiary of General Dynamics, announced it has received certification from the Federal Aviation Administration to install the "revolutionary" Enhanced Vision System on the Gulfstream V ultra-long range business jet aircraft. Advance Technologies has entered into a licensing agreement with Kollsman, Inc., which has incorporated the Company's technology into an Enhanced Vision System for use with Gulfstream Aircraft. The Company also has agreement with Telesis Technologies, a Taiwan company, in which Advance Technologies is jointly developing an Enhanced Vision System for use in Class A recreational vehicles. INESTMENT HIGHLIGHTS _____ · Recent Federal Aviation Administration approval of the Enhanced Vision System (EVS) (4th quarter 2001) Worldwide license agreement with Hughes Aircraft Company Gulfstream Aerospace Corp. to install the Enhanced Vision System on new business jet aircrafts (Business Wire: October 16, 2001) Accelerating demand driven by the September 11 tragedies in: * Night Vision Products * Corporate Security * National Defense * Aviation * Transportation * Firefighting REASONS TO BUY _____ · Early mover advantage in the infrared Enhanced Vision Technology market with critical high quality heads up display functionality imperative for aviation and transportation companies. · Recent validation of concept by Gulfstream and the FAA position Advance Technologies Inc. for speedy market penetration · Expect rapid sales growth after their 20+ year development and a successful FAA certification process. · Low expense to revenue ratios due to capitalized R&D · Stock is highly undervalued relative to the market. DISCLAIMER _____ First Digital Call (FDC) publishes reports providing information on selected companies that FDC believes has investment potential. FDC is not a registered investment advisor or broker-dealer. This report is provided as an information service only, and the statements and opinions in this report should not be construed as an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any security. FDC accepts no liability for any loss arising from an investor's reliance on or use of this report. An investment in any stock is considered to be highly speculative and should not be considered unless a person can afford a complete loss of investment. FDC is hired by a non-affiliated, third party consultanst, and may receive shares of common stock for the publication and circulation of reports. FDC may buy or sell shares of stock in the open market. Without notice. This report contains forward-looking statements, which involve risks, and uncertainties that may cause actual results to differ materially from those set forth in the forward-looking statements. For further details concerning these risks and uncertainties, see the SEC filings of AVTX including the company's most recent annual and quarterly reports. Copyright © 2002 by FDC. All rights reserved. www.firstdigitalcall.com To Unsubscribe, click Here . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emailer1 at netzero.net Wed Mar 13 12:04:12 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:04:12 -0800 Subject: SCN: Cool Sites.doc Message-ID: <000c01c1cacb$332ddca0$7152fea9@desktop> Cool Sites y Britannica.com http://www.britannica.com/ This site has the complete Encyclopaedia Britannica as well as magazines, news, web site reviews, and weather. Columbia Encyclopedia http://www.bartleby.com/65/ This online version of the popular one-volume encyclopedia is an excellent reference source. Computer Dictionary http://www.computeruser.com/resources/dictionary/index.html If you really want to know what the IS folks are talking about, look up those confusing terms in this high-tech dictionary. Encarta Online Concise Encyclopedia http://encarta.msn.com/default.asp?z=1 Microsoft offers this abridged version of the Encarta Deluxe Encyclopedia. Encyclopedia.com http://www.encyclopedia.com/home.html This site offers about 17,000 articles from the Concise Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia. FunkandWagnalls.com http://www.funkandwagnalls.com/ Funk and Wagnalls provides links to their multimedia encyclopedia, Random House Webster's College Dictionary, Roget's 21st Century Thesaurus, and more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emailer1 at netzero.net Wed Mar 13 14:08:28 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:08:28 -0800 Subject: SCN: Suspicious Sending Message-ID: <002a01c1cadb$9c236b20$7152fea9@desktop> I have received several security update sendings purporting to be from Microsoft. However, when I went to open one of them, Explorer said that the publisher (of the message) could not be confirmed because the (something) code could not be authenticated. Therefore, I did not open it. Do any of the SCNA gurus have solid information about this supposed security update? I am not forwarding the message in question on the assumption that the gurus are aware of it and that the message could be trouble. However, if requested, I will gladly forward it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmabel at speakeasy.org Wed Mar 13 22:13:08 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 22:13:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Suspicious Sending In-Reply-To: <002a01c1cadb$9c236b20$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: It's a current tirus going around. Look on the usual virus info sites, they'll tell you all about it. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, emailer1 wrote: > I have received several security update sendings purporting to be from Microsoft. However, when I went to open one of them, Explorer said that the publisher (of the message) could not be confirmed because the (something) code could not be authenticated. > > Therefore, I did not open it. > > Do any of the SCNA gurus have solid information about this supposed security update? > > I am not forwarding the message in question on the assumption that the gurus are aware of it and that the message could be trouble. However, if requested, I will gladly forward it. > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Thu Mar 14 00:27:37 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 00:27:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Suspicious Sending In-Reply-To: <002a01c1cadb$9c236b20$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: MS software is endemically buggy. If you use it you should keep on top of the various patches from MS. Check their website. Also check with CERT (www.cert.org) for current happenings, useful pointers, and links to related sites. "Suspicious" mail can be safely read on SCN, because we use different and more robust software, and we don't enable various dubious "features". Of course, if you download it to your own machine you are on your own. === JJ ============================================================= On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, emailer1 wrote: > I have received several security update sendings purporting to be from Microsoft. However, when I went to open one of them, Explorer said that the publisher (of the message) could not be confirmed because the (something) code could not be authenticated. > > Therefore, I did not open it. > > Do any of the SCNA gurus have solid information about this supposed security update? > > I am not forwarding the message in question on the assumption that the gurus are aware of it and that the message could be trouble. However, if requested, I will gladly forward it. > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Thu Mar 14 01:32:08 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 01:32:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: http://www.scn.org/~lee/scntesta.html In-Reply-To: <20020308160623.59347.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Finally belatedly got a look at this. It looks good. I'm still not sold on the new logo, although the idea of having both the full-color version (a cleaned up version of the current logo) and this stripped-down B&W is probably worth considering. I'm not passing judgement on the usefulness of the content - I don't have the time to really look into that - but the page appeals to the eye. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Fri, 8 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > The above is the new link to Lee's site redesign idea. The link had changed and some > people had asked about it. > > http://www.scn.org/~lee/scntesta.html > > Patrick > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Thu Mar 14 02:03:36 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 02:03:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Indian initiative on computers for the poor (fwd) Message-ID: [FORWARDS OMITTED] http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020306/tc_nm/tech_india_ simputer_dc_1 India's 'Poor-Friendly' Simputer Set for May Rollout Wed Mar 6, 6:19 AM ET By Anshuman Daga BANGALORE (Reuters) - A low-cost handheld computer developed by seven Indian engineers to take the Internet to rural masses will start rolling out in May, the head of a firm pioneering the project said. The "Simputer," short for Simple, Inexpensive, Multilingual, is championed by its followers as a friend of the poor, but some of its supporters add that its features match cool and trendy handhelds like those built by Palm Inc. Originally expected to cost $200, it would now cost $50 more, Vinay Deshpande, chief executive of Bangalore-based Encore Software Ltd., told Reuters on Wednesday. The color screen version is priced at $300. "We hope to produce 50,000 Simputers in the first 12 months and take it to 300,000-500,000 in two years," Deshpande said. Built by the non-profit Simputer Trust, the device is slightly larger than a regular handheld PC, and uses the free-to-use Linux (news - web sites) operating system. Its software is expected to aid farmers seeking to know commodity prices and beat middlemen and also provide speech recognition in regional languages to help illiterate rural folk. At $250, the Simputer will be three times cheaper than a PC, and cost about the same as a color TV set, a price level which is expected to help spread computers to the corners of India, two-thirds of whose one billion people live in rural areas. India's current installed base of computers is around six million. "We have orders for 1,000 Simputers from firms in healthcare and co-operative banking including few state governments," said Deshpande, whose firm is one of the two key license holders of the Simputer. Deshpande and two of Encore's other co-founders are part of the Simputer Trust, which developed the device with a group of computer scientists from Bangalore's prestigious Indian Institute of Science. The Simputer hooks up to the Internet and accommodates individual smart cards which store personal data to allow it be shared by many users. The software also translates English and regional language text into speech. Encore is initially targeting the institutional and corporate market instead of tapping retail users which requires large marketing investments, Deshpande said. "We are currently working to make enhancements like giving it an international style, greater memory and stronger battery power," he said. The device was first unveiled last April. Encore has given contracts to two Bangalore-based companies to manufacture the Simputer and formed a joint venture with a Singapore-based company to market the device in Asia. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Thu Mar 14 06:00:47 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 06:00:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Cool Sites.doc In-Reply-To: <000c01c1cacb$332ddca0$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: These are excellent resources. Is there anywhere on SCN we post a list of general references on line? If so, these certainly merit listing. If not, perhaps we should start one. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, emailer1 wrote: > Cool Sites > y > > Britannica.com > http://www.britannica.com/ > This site has the complete Encyclopaedia Britannica as well as magazines, news, web site reviews, and weather. > Columbia Encyclopedia > http://www.bartleby.com/65/ > This online version of the popular one-volume encyclopedia is an excellent reference source. > Computer Dictionary > http://www.computeruser.com/resources/dictionary/index.html > If you really want to know what the IS folks are talking about, look up those confusing terms in this high-tech dictionary. > Encarta Online Concise Encyclopedia > http://encarta.msn.com/default.asp?z=1 > Microsoft offers this abridged version of the Encarta Deluxe Encyclopedia. > Encyclopedia.com > http://www.encyclopedia.com/home.html > This site offers about 17,000 articles from the Concise Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia. > FunkandWagnalls.com > http://www.funkandwagnalls.com/ > Funk and Wagnalls provides links to their multimedia encyclopedia, Random House Webster's College Dictionary, Roget's 21st Century Thesaurus, and more. > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Mar 14 08:06:43 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:06:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: http://www.scn.org/~lee/scntesta.html In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020314160643.70948.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Joe, Thanks for the feedback. The logo was done by a graphics designer on the East Coast (www.pawluh.com). I'm not sure why Lee chose that logo, but it was probably just a good choice among the ones that pawluh sent. They were all pretty good. Not that I'm choosing, just saying, "hey, that looks pretty good". I don't mean to pass judgement or appear biased here. But I tend to agree with your points. The logo and design may be approved separately. I will have more details after the board convenes this week. Will keep you posted, Patrick Patrick --- Joe Mabel wrote: > Finally belatedly got a look at this. It looks good. I'm still not sold on the > new logo, although the idea of having both the full-color version (a cleaned up > version of the current logo) and this stripped-down B&W is probably worth > considering. > > I'm not passing judgement on the usefulness of the content - I don't have the > time to really look into that - but the page appeals to the eye. > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Fri, 8 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > The above is the new link to Lee's site redesign idea. The link had changed and > some > > people had asked about it. > > > > http://www.scn.org/~lee/scntesta.html > > > > Patrick > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Thu Mar 14 08:54:13 2002 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:54:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: DISCUS forum test Message-ID: I've put up a simple version of the DISCUS software to test. See: http://www.scn.org/discus It's running the Lynx 'skin', which is optimized for text browsers. -randy * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Mar 14 20:13:34 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:13:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Yahoo pop mail - remote access question Message-ID: <20020315041334.77601.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Hi I've been trying access my Yahoo mail via Outlook Express using nocharge.com. However, I can only retrieve mail, not send it. Is this because I need an ISP with a mail server that I can reference? It is odd that one can retrieve Yahoo mail, but not be able to send to Yahoo. Is there a workaround? Thanks, Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Thu Mar 14 21:43:35 2002 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:43:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Yahoo pop mail - remote access question In-Reply-To: <20020315041334.77601.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Someone at work had the same problem. He even set up a SMTP server on his own box, and it looks like nocharge is blocking all traffice in and out of port 25 (SMTP). That's why you can't send. Sending mail out from your Yahoo account is technically relaying, because your client is not in the same domain as your e-mail address. -randy On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > Hi > > I've been trying access my Yahoo mail via Outlook Express using nocharge.com. > However, I can only retrieve mail, not send it. Is this because I need an ISP with a > mail server that I can reference? > > It is odd that one can retrieve Yahoo mail, but not be able to send to Yahoo. > > Is there a workaround? > > Thanks, > Patrick > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > http://sports.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Thu Mar 14 22:02:02 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:02:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Yahoo pop mail - remote access question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020315060202.77045.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> The odd thing is that I set up a Hotmail account and it works great! Unfortunately, I can't check the settings for the hotmail through Outlook Express because MS seems to hide this to make it as simple as possible. Using a Apple Powerbook G3, OS 8.5, MS Outlook Express 5.2. Odd that Hotmail works. I wonder why. P- --- Randy Groves wrote: > > Someone at work had the same problem. He even set up a SMTP server on his > own box, and it looks like nocharge is blocking all traffice in and out of > port 25 (SMTP). That's why you can't send. Sending mail out from your > Yahoo account is technically relaying, because your client is not in the > same domain as your e-mail address. > > -randy > > > On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > Hi > > > > I've been trying access my Yahoo mail via Outlook Express using nocharge.com. > > However, I can only retrieve mail, not send it. Is this because I need an ISP > with a > > mail server that I can reference? > > > > It is odd that one can retrieve Yahoo mail, but not be able to send to Yahoo. > > > > Is there a workaround? > > > > Thanks, > > Patrick > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > > http://sports.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Fri Mar 15 00:11:01 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:11:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Pegasus In-Reply-To: <3C2E05D9.2920.ADF6114@localhost> Message-ID: OK, so I'm replying to 11-week-old email. Sue me. This seemed interesting at the time, but there seems to have been no followup other than a couple of people saying, "Yes I've used it, it's cool." Since this supports both POP3 and IMAP4, it is presumably a suitable mail client to use with SCN, right? And the free nature of the product would seem to fit right in with what we do, right? So why don't we add something to our site telling people how to get Pegasus Mail and how to configure it to access SCN as their mail server? Is there a reason this shouldn't happen? If not, is there someone who can take the ball and run with it? While I'm on the subject (1) We've been saying for a long time that IMAP is "coming soon". Any ETA? (2) Considering that the SCN Free Services are a pretty important part of what we do, they sure are BURIED on our Home page. Strirtly "below the fold" (you have to scroll down to find the none-too-prominent link). At least we shoudl do a feature article on them now and then, sort of a "site of the week" about ourselves! We feature prominently the contribution info, and volunteering. Why don't we dedicate an equally prominent space to what we offer back? Lee's new redesign (http://www.scn.org/~lee/scntesta.html) is better in this respect ("Freebies" is "above the fold at 1024 x 768), but I'd still move "about SCN" down lower and get both "donations" and "freebies" above the fold at 800 x 600. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Steve wrote: > x-no-archive: yes > > ================== > > Note: I've been using Pegasus for several years. If you decide to > try it, I'd recommend downloading version 3.12c, at least until a few > version 4 problems get ironed out... > > ================== > > (Eric Lee, Scottish Socialist Voice, excerpts)---In my column last > week I mentioned an email program called Pegasus Mail. > > Pegasus Mail should interest socialists for a few reasons. > > First of all, it is absolutely free of charge. Unlike, say, Eudora, > which shows advertising, Pegasus Mail is completely commercial- > free as well. > > Second, it is not the product of some giant corporation. Pegasus > Mail was written by one guy - David Harris, who lives in Dunedin, > New Zealand. > > Harris first wrote Pegasus Mail back in 1989 when he realised that > the university he was employed by needed an email program. > People liked what he wrote, it got passed around, and over time > became one of the most popular pieces of software ever written. > > He says of Pegasus Mail that "it dates from the time when the > Internet was a community rather than just a highway - when people > helped each other without worrying too much about who was going > to pay for it." > > Harris doesn't appear to have made any money from this. He > seems prepared to sell you a manual for the program, if you want, > but that's hardly the kind of aggressive marketing one is used to > these days. But Harris has apparently sold enough copies of the > manuals to keep himself going, and has devoted the last 18 > months to rewriting his software from scratch. > > Over those last few months, Harris has written tens of thousands > of lines of code, made some 2,500 changes to the previous > version, and in early November this year announced the long- > delayed release of a much improved version of the software, > Pegasus Mail version 4. > > It many ways, it is a superior program to the ones produced by the > giant, U.S.-based corporations with their teams of hundreds of > programmers. > > Harris claims to have invented filtering for email, and Pegasus Mail > still has a very powerful mechanism for sorting out junk mail. In > fact it's so powerful that you can easily use Pegasus Mail to run > electronic mailing lists. > > While corporations like Microsoft employ teams of testers and > quality control experts, Harris relies on a network of volunteer > testers who are given pre-release versions of the software. > > All of this flies in the face of the conventional wisdom about how > software works, or how the computer industry works. > > Bigger is not necessarily better. Software you pay for is not > always better than software that is given away for free. > > People are sometimes prepared to devote many hours of their time > in a labour of love to create a computer program that is a proudly- > crafted piece of work - rather than a buggy, assembly-line > produced piece of "bloatware"... > > According to the proponents of free market capitalism, idealists like > David Harris should not even exist. They should not be writing > things like this: "Giving away Pegasus Mail seemed to be a means > by which I could try to make communication more accessible to a > much wider range of people who needed it." > > If the capitalist view of the way things worked was right, Pegasus > Mail should never have been created. It should never have > succeeded when pitted against products produced by corporate > giants. > > But it did. > > For a decade now, Pegasus Mail has been the email program of > choice for millions of Internet users. > > Today, with the commercialisation of the web, dominated by > Microsoft and AOL, the act of downloading and using Pegasus > Mail is almost an act of defiance, of rebellion. > > From my point of view, it's not only the best email program > available today - it's the one all socialists should use, and promote. > > More details about Pegasus Mail can be found at www.pmail.com. > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Fri Mar 15 00:32:16 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:32:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Pegasus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Joe Mabel wrote: > (1) We've been saying for a long time that IMAP is "coming soon". Any ETA? Some time after we get some testers. The software was installed back in November, but until we can get some people to give it a thorough test to see where the holes and sharp corners are so we can make any needful changes it would be rather dicey to make it available. So does anyone familiar with using IMAP want to test this? === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Thu Mar 14 21:47:15 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:47:15 -0800 Subject: SCN: Suspicious Sending References: Message-ID: <006901c1cc01$d92e2c40$7152fea9@desktop> Thanks, all, for the responses. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Mabel To: emailer1 Cc: ; ; Randy Groves Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 10:13 PM Subject: Re: SCN: Suspicious Sending > It's a current tirus going around. Look on the usual virus info sites, they'll > tell you all about it. > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, emailer1 wrote: > > > I have received several security update sendings purporting to be from Microsoft. However, when I went to open one of them, Explorer said that the publisher (of the message) could not be confirmed because the (something) code could not be authenticated. > > > > Therefore, I did not open it. > > > > Do any of the SCNA gurus have solid information about this supposed security update? > > > > I am not forwarding the message in question on the assumption that the gurus are aware of it and that the message could be trouble. However, if requested, I will gladly forward it. > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Thu Mar 14 22:15:11 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:15:11 -0800 Subject: SCN: Fw: Suspicious Sending Message-ID: <006b01c1cc01$ed8a9340$7152fea9@desktop> ----- Original Message ----- From: SCN help To: emailer1 Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 6:02 PM Subject: Re: Suspicious Sending > The message about an Internet Security Update purporting to be from > Microsoft Corporation Security should not be opened. It contains a type > of virus called a worm. It is not from Microsoft. You can find more > details at the Microsoft.com website. > > Microsoft policy is to not send any patches or updates as e-mail > attachments. They refer people to their website to download patches and > updates > > ------ > SCN - Seattle's volunteer run, non-profit internet service. > From the SCN Help Desk: Bob > > On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, emailer1 wrote: > > > I have received several security update sendings purporting to be from Microsoft. However, when I went to open one of them, Explorer said that the publisher (of the message) could not be confirmed because the (something) code could not be authenticated. > > > > Therefore, I did not open it. > > > > Do any of the SCNA gurus have solid information about this supposed security update? > > > > I am not forwarding the message in question on the assumption that the gurus are aware of it and that the message could be trouble. However, if requested, I will gladly forward it. > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From dancefestival at supereva.com Fri Mar 15 04:14:30 2002 From: dancefestival at supereva.com (dancefestival) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:14:30 +0000 Subject: SCN: the New "Prague and Italy" Dance Festivals DeadLine is 31 March 2002....HURRY UP! Message-ID: <3C91E5A5.1E2B9583@supereva.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmabel at speakeasy.org Fri Mar 15 03:40:57 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 03:40:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Pegasus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wouldn't too heavily stress the "familiar with using IMAP". Pine is an IMAP client. Not exactly rocket science. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, J. Johnson wrote: > On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Joe Mabel wrote: > > > (1) We've been saying for a long time that IMAP is "coming soon". Any ETA? > > Some time after we get some testers. The software was installed back in > November, but until we can get some people to give it a thorough test to > see where the holes and sharp corners are so we can make any needful > changes it would be rather dicey to make it available. > > So does anyone familiar with using IMAP want to test this? > > === JJ ============================================================= > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From lucas011 at uol.com.ar Fri Mar 15 05:25:17 2002 From: lucas011 at uol.com.ar (e-work) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:25:17 -0300 Subject: SCN: E-Work at Home Using Your Computer Message-ID: E-Work at Home Using Your Computer Turn a one time $25.into $500,000. NO BULL Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time 'THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can -follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before, but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received a total of $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in." Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to spend my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. My first month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports.You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it in any way, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2%response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's 100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH= $500,000.00 [half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3....$5,000 + 4.... $50,000 + 5....$500,000 ....Grand Total=$555,550.00. NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGUREOUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILEDTO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one/4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me,many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET. Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 then add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders if possible. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. AVAILABLE REPORTS!!! ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : REPORTS # 1: The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net Order Report #1 from: Lucas Seccia Primera Junta 918 B1642DZF San Isidro Argentina ________________________________________________________ REPORT # 2: The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net Order Report # 2 from: Ebenezer Awuley Boye P.O. Box OS 1273, Osu, Accra, Ghana ________________________________________________________ _________ REPORT # 3: Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net Order Report # 3 from : Helmut Oltersdorf P.O. Box 83220, San Po Kong Post Office, San Po Kong, Kowloon, Hong Kong ____________________________________ REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net" Order Report # 4 from: Rio I. Pon P.O. Box 102, Greenhills Post Office, 1502 Metro Manila, Philippines ________________________________________________________ ___ REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free" Order Report # 5 from: Liane Maus P.O. Box 1262, Meine Postoffice, 38525 Meine, Germany ________________________________________________________ ____ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND OUT ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business. FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this out to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW MORE TESTIMONIALS!!! "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing,spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and a few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old '' I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a total of $ 147,200.00 all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois ''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again.....I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of the third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet.". Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. Thanks for your time and good sailing. To be removed,reply this email with 'remove' in the subject line. _________________________________________________________________ UOLMAIL - Todo Argentino tiene derecho a lo mejor de Internet. http://www.uolmail.com.ar * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Fri Mar 15 09:02:41 2002 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 09:02:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Pegasus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No - but the setup for an IMAP client can be more complicated than POP - with the multiplicity of server and mailbox configuration options. I must admit that I haven't delved into this myself, partly because I didn't feel like mastering the syntax. It's probably not bad, just another thing to learn. If we set up Pine to do the defaults correctly, then it should be easy for people to test. AND This is a major problem - using IMAP, there is no connection at this point between being able to receive (this is for external IMAP clients connecting via TCP/IP) and send out through SCN to external mail addresses. Our POP setup includes a 'POPrelay' timer - we're one of the few free services that have implemented this - most just restrict SMTP traffic entirely. IMAP doesn't have this timer implemented at this point (there are options to use a slightly different mechanism, but the scheme is still the same). So users who opt for IMAP will be able to receive mail on their external client - I just tried it, it works fine - but since IMAP doesn't set the 'outbound relay OK' timer, they won't be able to send. This 'outbound-relay' problem is the main reason that we haven't implemented IMAP generally. The problem is solvable, but no work has been done on this yet. The current trend is to assume that clients will have the capability to do some sort of SMTP authorization - which is OK if you assume that everybody can afford to keep up with the current trends. And, since this service is definitely a plus compared to other free services available, we should most assuredly consider this as high priority for the new services we need soonest. -randy On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Joe Mabel wrote: > I wouldn't too heavily stress the "familiar with using IMAP". Pine is an IMAP > client. Not exactly rocket science. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Fri Mar 15 13:40:39 2002 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 13:40:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Shaping the Network Society -- Get involved! Message-ID: <200203152140.NAA03810@scn.org> May 16 - 19 in Seattle we will be welcoming 500 (we hope!) people to the eighth (!!) "Directions and Implications of Advanced Computing" symposium. This year we will again focus on "Shaping the Network Society," how can researchers, practitioners, activists, journalists, artists, policy-makers, and citizens help build responsive communications systems. Anyway our next volunteer meeting is Monday (sorry for late notice!) March 18 at 3:00 at Cafe Allegro (4214 University Way N.E.). If you can come, GREAT! If you think you'd like to get involved but can't make the meeting, please contact Nicole, symposium volunteer coordinator, at nicole-cis-sos at thatsnice.org. Thanks!!! -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * ****************************************************************** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Mar 15 19:49:57 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:49:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN Potluck information Message-ID: <20020316034957.77075.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Here is the information on the SCN potluck: Time: Saturday, March 16th, 5 to 7 or 8. Address: 7000 East Marginal Way, 98108, about 3 blocks due west of the nw corner of Boeing Field. Map: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&address=7000+East+Marginal+Way&city=Seattle&state=WA&zipcode=98108&homesubmit.x=15&homesubmit.y=8 Specifically instructions (IMPORTANT): The Telephone Museum parking lot entrance is before you get to East Marginal Way - on the left, behind the building. The building is on the corner. Right across from the Hat and Boot. Don't turn onto E Marginal Way - you have gone too far. The building entrance is to the left as you face the building from the parking lot. Take the elevator to the third floor. Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From irenethewitch at yahoo.com Fri Mar 15 20:18:37 2002 From: irenethewitch at yahoo.com (Irene Mogol) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:18:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: SCN Potluck information In-Reply-To: <20020316034957.77075.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020316041837.19270.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> Patrick, Am I right in assuming that it is at the corner of Corson Ave & E Marginal Way... All the directions end at getting off at Corson... Thanx, Irene --- patrick fisher wrote: > Here is the information on the SCN potluck: > > Time: > Saturday, March 16th, 5 to 7 or 8. > > Address: > > 7000 East Marginal Way, 98108, about 3 blocks due > west of the nw > corner of Boeing > Field. > > Map: > > http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&address=7000+East+Marginal+Way&city=Seattle&state=WA&zipcode=98108&homesubmit.x=15&homesubmit.y=8 > > Specifically instructions (IMPORTANT): > > The Telephone Museum parking lot entrance > is before you get to East Marginal Way - on the > left, behind the > building. The building is on the corner. Right > across from the Hat > and > Boot. Don't turn onto E Marginal Way - you have > gone too far. > > The building entrance is to the left as you face the > building from > the parking lot. Take the elevator to the third > floor. > > Patrick > > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > http://sports.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Mar 16 09:54:09 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 09:54:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN trivia question Message-ID: <20020316175409.56610.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone know how many individual web pages SCN has on its server(s)? Thanks, Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Sat Mar 16 12:39:00 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:39:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN trivia question In-Reply-To: <20020316175409.56610.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Probably not! And in part because the question is ambiguous. === JJ ============================================================= On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > Does anyone know how many individual web pages SCN has on its server(s)? > > Thanks, > Patrick > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > http://sports.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Sat Mar 16 12:42:09 2002 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:42:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN trivia question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The question is somewhat ambiguous, but if we're talking about personal web pages, then a quick survey of all those that have 'public_html' directories with something in them might be one way of finding out. -randy On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, J. Johnson wrote: > Probably not! And in part because the question is ambiguous. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > Does anyone know how many individual web pages SCN has on its server(s)? > > > > Thanks, > > Patrick > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > > http://sports.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Mar 16 13:46:02 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:46:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN trivia question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020316214602.87009.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> How about: How many individual html pages are there on SCN? If SCN had to be indexed, how many pages would have to be indexed? P- --- Randy Groves wrote: > > The question is somewhat ambiguous, but if we're talking about personal > web pages, then a quick survey of all those that have 'public_html' > directories with something in them might be one way of finding out. > > -randy > > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, J. Johnson wrote: > > > Probably not! And in part because the question is ambiguous. > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > Does anyone know how many individual web pages SCN has on its server(s)? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Patrick > > > > > > ===== > > > Webmaster > > > Seattle Community Network > > > http://www.scn.org > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > > > http://sports.yahoo.com/ > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From A.e.ent at idg.com.br Sat Mar 16 20:36:51 2002 From: A.e.ent at idg.com.br (A.e.ent at idg.com.br) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 20:36:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: The safe way to protect your valuables Message-ID: <1016267864.0070516529@mail.idg.com.br> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at scn.org Sat Mar 16 20:54:13 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 20:54:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN trivia question In-Reply-To: <20020316214602.87009.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Still quite ambiguous. I could write a script to tally how many files with html, htm, or shtml suffixes exist in all the public_html directories. But wait--'txt' files can also be accessed via the web. Did you want to include them? And should a file be included if there is no link to it? It might be easier to write a spider script, which would follow all the links. Or see if there is some way to get Altavista to sort out the "personal" pages from the pages on the document root. But this is getting to be a non-trivial effort. === JJ ============================================================= On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > How about: How many individual html pages are there on SCN? If SCN had to be > indexed, how many pages would have to be indexed? > > P- > > --- Randy Groves wrote: > > > > The question is somewhat ambiguous, but if we're talking about personal > > web pages, then a quick survey of all those that have 'public_html' > > directories with something in them might be one way of finding out. > > > > -randy > > > > > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, J. Johnson wrote: > > > > > Probably not! And in part because the question is ambiguous. > > > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > Does anyone know how many individual web pages SCN has on its server(s)? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > Webmaster > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > > > > http://sports.yahoo.com/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > http://sports.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Sat Mar 16 21:06:23 2002 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 21:06:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN trivia question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes I know - there's lots of ins and outs. Here's the trivial answer. I did a find on all files with the pattern *.htm* in the /web tree, and came up with 20,241 pages. I'm running a find on the personal home pages now. -randy On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, J. Johnson wrote: > Still quite ambiguous. I could write a script to tally how many files > with html, htm, or shtml suffixes exist in all the public_html > directories. But wait--'txt' files can also be accessed via the web. Did > you want to include them? And should a file be included if there is no > link to it? It might be easier to write a spider script, which would > follow all the links. Or see if there is some way to get Altavista to > sort out the "personal" pages from the pages on the document root. But > this is getting to be a non-trivial effort. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > How about: How many individual html pages are there on SCN? If SCN had to be > > indexed, how many pages would have to be indexed? > > > > P- > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Sat Mar 16 21:20:17 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 21:20:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN trivia question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting. I did a search on Altavista for "the", constrained (we should hope!) by "host:www.scn.org", and got only 9,718 "results". (These included some personal pages.) I wouldn't want to even guess how comprehensive that is, or how AltaVista got those results. === JJ ============================================================= On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, Randy Groves wrote: > > Yes I know - there's lots of ins and outs. Here's the trivial answer. I > did a find on all files with the pattern *.htm* in the /web tree, and came > up with 20,241 pages. I'm running a find on the personal home pages now. > > -randy > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Sat Mar 16 21:31:35 2002 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 21:31:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN trivia question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The find on the personal pages turned up 4,523 pages. A lot of them look like the original pages that people set up, so it's hard to tell if they are valid or not. -randy On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, Randy Groves wrote: > > Yes I know - there's lots of ins and outs. Here's the trivial answer. I > did a find on all files with the pattern *.htm* in the /web tree, and came > up with 20,241 pages. I'm running a find on the personal home pages now. > > -randy > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From a.hales at attbi.com Sun Mar 17 08:56:33 2002 From: a.hales at attbi.com (Mark O. Hales) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 08:56:33 Subject: SCN: Making money over the internet. Message-ID: <200203171350.FAA24081@scn.org> FREE. Step-by-step to EASY money on the Web. 32-page Guide to setting up an EASY home-business. One that is EASY to afford. EASY to understand. EASY to use. EASY to sell. EASY to make money with. It's the most exciting booklet you will ever read! Download your free copy now! Please Visit: http://www.wisemulesclub.com/lzman/MH8225.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Mar 17 11:06:10 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 11:06:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN trivia question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020317190610.45459.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> That's quite a few. I was looking for a ballpark figure. That is more than I had expected. Patrick t@?t?oves wrote: > > The find on the personal pages turned up 4,523 pages. A lot of them look > like the original pages that people set up, so it's hard to tell if they > are valid or not. > > -randy > > > On Sat, 16 Mar 2002, Randy Groves wrote: > > > > > Yes I know - there's lots of ins and outs. Here's the trivial answer. I > > did a find on all files with the pattern *.htm* in the /web tree, and came > > up with 20,241 pages. I'm running a find on the personal home pages now. > > > > -randy > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bb615 at scn.org Mon Mar 18 17:38:52 2002 From: bb615 at scn.org (Rod Clark) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 17:38:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN trivia question In-Reply-To: <20020317190610.45459.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Randy Groves wrote: > > The find on the personal pages turned up 4,523 pages. A lot of > > them look like the original pages that people set up, so it's > > hard to tell if they are valid or not. Randy, Thanks for delving into all of this. Would it be too much work to take the results from that first 4,523-page run and check them to see how many of the personal sites are still current by the one-year-since-any-update measure that we use to count "current" IPs? It would be interesting to find out. Pages that are still exactly what the automated script generated don't count as "real" personal sites, regardless of the file date. (If index.html and template.html in the public_html directory are identical, then the site never made it to being a "live" site.) Rod Clark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Mon Mar 18 21:14:12 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 21:14:12 -0800 Subject: SCN: Disabling Cookies -- M.S. Internet Explorer Message-ID: <000a01c1cf20$6f9abec0$7152fea9@desktop> It seems to me that, several months ago (like 12), there was some discussion about how to disable cookies. Below are the steps to take to disable cookies if one is using Microsoft Internet Explorer. However, there is a notation that this change of setting is (a) less efficient (why?) and (b) that this prevents access to some web sites. To disable cookies: 1.. Go to (open) Internet Explorer. 2.. Click on "Tools" in the (what else?) tool bar. 3.. Click on "Security." 4.. Click on "Security Settings." 5.. Scroll down the security setting until you come to "Cookies." 6.. Read the two options 1.. [(1) Allow cookies to be stored on your computer, and 2.. (2) Allow (only) per-session cookies.] 7.. IMPORTANT! You can either choose a high level of security (to keep out cookies) or you can choose a medium level of security, but customize it to exclude cookies. Poke around the "customize" button to see how that works. Good luck to all. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emailer1 at netzero.net Tue Mar 19 00:17:06 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 00:17:06 -0800 Subject: SCN: Fw: Zen Thoughts! VERY Funny! Message-ID: <000e01c1cf20$f777a100$7152fea9@desktop> A little lightness to start the day. > A Few Zen Thoughts For Those Who May Take Life Too Seriously > > 2. A day without sunshine is like, night. > > 3. On the other hand, you have different fingers. > > 4. I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. > > 5. 42.7 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot. > > 6. 99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. > > 7. I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe. > > 8. Honk if you love peace and quiet. > > 9. Remember, half the people you know are below average. > > 10. He who laughs last thinks slowest. > > 11. Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm. > > 12. The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. > > 13. I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol. > > 14. Support bacteria. They're the only culture some people have. > > 15. Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7 of your week. > > 16. A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory. > > 17. Change is inevitable, except from vending machines. > > 18. Get a new car for your spouse. It'll be a great trade! > > 19. Plan to be spontaneous tomorrow. > > 20. Always try to be modest, and be proud of it! > > 21. If you think nobody cares, try missing a couple of payments. > > 22. How many of you believe in telekinesis? Raise my hand... > > 23. I almost had a psychic girlfriend, but she left me before we met. > > 24. OK, so what's the speed of dark? > > 25. How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink? > > 26. If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously over looked something. > > 27. When everything is coming your way, you're in the wrong lane. > > 28. Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now. > > 29. Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film. > > 30. If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends? > > 31. Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. > > 32. Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > > 33. What happens if you get scared half to death twice? > > 34. I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out. > > 35. I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder. > 36. Why do psychics have to ask you for your name? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Investing101 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 18 23:32:28 2002 From: Investing101 at yahoo.com (Investing101 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:32:28 +0900 Subject: SCN: Floor Trader Software Message-ID: <038d65e36c3b$2546b6c1$6ee10aa0@prhwlb> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Debbie68124 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 19 18:49:27 2002 From: Debbie68124 at yahoo.com (Debbie68124 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:49:27 +0600 Subject: SCN: Free Trader's Software 8727BPda0-899tUsv2377tVIn5-62l27 Message-ID: <031e02b66d8d$6821a1b5$1ed70ed2@mcsvao> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at advocate.net Wed Mar 20 07:23:29 2002 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:23:29 -0800 Subject: SCN: ICANN Message-ID: <3C9838F1.3728.19BCFBF@localhost> x-no-archive: yes =================== Karl Auerbach, elected to the Internet domain-name authority with a mandate from the people, explains why he is suing his own organization. (Damien Cave, Salon)---Karl Auerbach began his tenure at ICANN, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers, with a mild sense of optimism. By the time he joined the board of directors in November 2000, the nonprofit -- the controlling authority over the allocation and administration of Internet domain names -- had already earned a reputation for ineptitude and closed-door policies that favor corporate interests. But as one of five board members (out of 19) elected at large by the general public, Auerbach intended to guide ICANN toward reform. Auerbach's hopes have not been realized. In February, ICANN CEO and president M. Stuart Lynn proposed a massive overhaul of the organization -- a shift of power away from public input toward national governments. At a meeting in Accra, Ghana, last week, ICANN agreed to go along, suspending at-large elections until further notice. Auerbach -- a founder of several software companies who also spent time protesting the Vietnam War -- isn't ready to fold his tent yet, however. On Monday, he sued the organization he represents. He filed charges in California Superior Court against ICANN for withholding financial information in violation of a state law that gives directors "the absolute right at any reasonable time to inspect and copy all books, records and documents of every kind." ICANN officials couldn't be reached for comment. Salon chatted with Auerbach about the case and other ICANN- related matters. You've been trying to see ICANN's financial records for a while. What led you to file a lawsuit? I made my first request to see the financials within five minutes of my election to the board. ... I submitted written requests. They went off and hemmed and hawed and said they'd have to write procedures and send it to such-and-such committees. ICANN has a committee structure that makes the U.S. government look simple. But nothing happened and I wrote more letters. Then, eventually, finally, around September, I get, out of the blue, this set of procedures, which Stuart Lynn simply declared by fiat to be applicable to all directors. What were the procedures and why didn't you comply? No. 1, they were unlawful in that they put conditions on me, which impaired my ability to make independent judgments. I essentially have to ask the approval of management to see certain documents. They go cogitate and then tell me whether I can see them. And they place conditions on my use of that material. They call it a nondisclosure, but it really amounts to conditional use. So there are two parts to this: First, I'd have to sign the general agreement; then there would be additional conditions when I showed up at the door. To do this would be to abrogate my duties as a director. It would be contrary to my duty as a director to sign the agreement. And what's really interesting is that through all of this process -- with Stuart piling more and more procedures on me -- he responded, out of the blue, to one of my requests. It was a request for fairly innocuous information -- I wanted the logs of international travel of all officers and executives for all international travel not pertaining to a board meeting -- but nevertheless he felt free to dispense with all of these procedures [and give me the logs] with just the wave of his hand. So he's playing fast and loose with these procedures. What are you hoping to achieve with the suit? I want to look at the records because I want to make better decisions. Part of Stuart's reorganization plan is inspired by the fact that ICANN is running out of money and needs cash. So I want to know where the cash is going. All I've seen are broad public statements and, to my eyeballs, they're very deficient. And I want to understand the conflicts of interest. I've seen signs that there are conflicts of interest at Jones, Day [the Washington law firm retained by ICANN] and elsewhere and I want to know the details. What's going on is that we have the classical tension between managers and directors. This has been going on at corporations ever since they've existed. But at ICANN we have a passive board and an activist management who seem to want to be building an empire. Some folks just don't get the notion that directors are there to oversee the corporation. ICANN's management seems to consider the board as a kind of rubber stamp to be used to approve management's fait accomplis. I guess that some folks just haven't learned from Enron. My own sense is that this lack of director responsibility is mirroring the crisis in corporate accounting as shown by Andersen in the Enron situation. In corporations, especially nonprofits and tax-exempts like ICANN, the public interest is often protected only through the vehicle of active, inquiring directors. As directors become lax and lazy, or in ICANN's case, as corporate management imposes unlawful limitations on directors that the directors accept, then the corporation becomes unaccountable and the public loses. Look at Lynn's reform plan. His response to ICANN not having enough money is to build an ICANN that has 10 times the budget. But Lynn is arguing that he's trying to streamline the organization and make it more effective -- goals that you share. Yes, but his budget went up tenfold. It went from a couple million to $23 million. And it's virtually all staff people. So even if you give $250,000 per person per year, we're talking about 100 people. It's already too large with 20 people. I mean, what are they doing? ICANN's job is supposed to be narrow and technical. And here it is, 20 people? What in the world are they doing? It's inconceivable. That's why I want to look at the records, to find out where the money goes. Why does it take $2.4 million (47 applicants paid $50,000 each) to evaluate seven top-level domains? What do you make of ICANN's decision to suspend at-large elections -- the format that put you on the board? I'm just appalled at the at-large study committee, which came back and said, "Oh, well, this is an improvement for the at-large community because they can organize." Well, we've always had the ability to organize so-called garden clubs of comment. It's the lack of the vote that matters. This is something that ICANN has promised Congress, promised the public, ever since its inception. Now, it's gone back on its promise. But there were serious problems with the last election. Countries like China, for example, pounded the servers in what appears to have been an attempt to stuff the ballot box. There were large problems with the U.S. election, but we didn't tear down the U.S. and rewrite the Constitution, did we? What kinds of alternatives are you offering? How do you think some of the problems, particularly with fraud, should be fixed? First, get rid of management. Here are people whose primary belief is that elections will never work, therefore they don't try. There's a lack of will here. Also, we don't have to have electronic elections. We can have good old paper elections, the kind that work for all kinds of nonprofits all over the world. You send people an envelope, they fill out the paper and send it back. Is that so hard? Is that so extensive? Why do you think these kinds of things aren't being considered? Because it gets in their way of building an empire. A lot of people really get excited by having a huge organization chart with them at the top, and with lots of money to spend. And that's what ICANN is turning into -- bureaucracy upon bureaucracy. Do you think the removal of at-large elections is the biggest flaw with Lynn's proposal? What other problems do you have with the plan? The repudiation of public participation is the most egregious part. The imposition of the nominating committees [under Lynn's plan, five members of ICANN's board would be chosen by the organization's internal committees] is just awful because it creates a self-perpetuating organization in which the insiders determine who will be let in. It's very much like the College of Cardinals in Rome, who are not going to let a Protestant become pope. As far as finances go, the thing is just naive. Here he is asking governments to pay. Who in the U.S. has been the most vociferous opponent to ICANN at the federal level? Congress. If anybody at ICANN would bother to read something simple, like the U.S. Constitution, they'd recognize that funds have to be approved by Congress; the executive branch doesn't print money and spend it. If someone's going to pay ICANN, it's going to have to be passed by Congress. And that certainly gives Congress a much stronger level to exert control. And how are you going to get governments to agree? Governments are required, under the Lynn plan, to gather into clubs and select someone. But now, according to a recent clarification, they have to select from a list prepared by this council -- and then pay for the privilege. >From a financial point of view, it's very naive. And it's also naive from a legal point of view. Is there anything in the plan that's useful? I think it would make great kindling for a fire. There's nothing in it that's useful. Copyright 2002 Salon.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From soletrica at hotmail.com Thu Mar 21 09:14:21 2002 From: soletrica at hotmail.com (Soletrica Iluminações ) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:14:21 Subject: SCN: >> Atenção Empresários e Emprededores << Message-ID: <200203211205.EAA01899@scn4.scn.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From randy at scn.org Thu Mar 21 11:56:32 2002 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:56:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: New Discus software installed Message-ID: There is a test version of the Forum software DISCUS installed on the SCN web. There are only two conversation threads at this point, and we are still feeling our way around the options. We have implemented the Lynx 'skin' which is optimized for text browsers. Check it out and let us know what you think. -randy * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Thu Mar 21 16:53:49 2002 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:53:49 -0800 Subject: SCN: Piracy Message-ID: <3C9A101D.10473.36FFD8B@localhost> x-no-archive: yes =================== (Lee Gomes, Wall Street Journal)---The U.S. software industry says it has a big problem, and it believes it has a solution: putting Robin Rothberg and some of his friends behind bars. Not everyone agrees. Mr. Rothberg, a 34-year-old Boston-area computer consultant, was for a year or two around 1997 a leader of "Pirates With Attitude" -- an online software-piracy group. The Pirates -- like hundreds or even thousands of other groups on the Web -- do for software what Napster did for music, making programs such as games and expensive financial software available for free. No money changes hands, and the groups are mostly hobbies for members. In 1997, after industry lobbying efforts, Congress made this sort of "recreational" piracy a criminal offense; previously, it was only a civil violation. Swapping more than $2,500 in software, regardless of the circumstances, became punishable by as much as three years in jail. Mr. Rothberg and 16 other Pirates With Attitude are the first big group of people to be faced with jail time under the law. They were arrested in 2000; most pleaded guilty last year, and will be sentenced next month by U.S. District Judge Matthew F. Kennelly in Chicago. Many are expected to be given probation, but the government seems to be gunning for Mr. Rothberg and a few others, who could be sent to jail for more than two years. The software industry describes the crackdowns as a much- needed step to deal with a rampant and costly problem that grows worse every day. "We feel the threat of jail time provides a greater deterrent," said Mike Flynn, who heads up antipiracy efforts at the Software and Information Industry Association. But many people see the "criminalization" of recreational, or noncommercial, piracy as part of a disturbing trend. "The penalty is completely disproportionate to harm that is caused," said Marci A. Hamilton, a specialist in copyright law at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law at Yeshiva University. Selling pirated programs has always been regarded as a serious criminal offense. But recreational piracy -- almost as old as the PC - - was long treated as a civil matter, with those caught potentially receiving fines but not jail time. In convincing Congress to change the law, the industry said that even noncommercial piracy was expensive, pointing to 130,000 jobs and $1 billion in taxes it said was lost due to all forms of piracy. No one in the debate thinks that stealing software should be condoned. The bone of contention is whether the punishment fits the crime. The music industry's campaign against Napster has been conducted entirely through civil, as opposed to criminal, courts; critics say the software industry has the resources to do the same thing. With software-industry trade groups cheering on the arrests, the courts are likely to see more such cases. In December, federal agents seized hundreds of computers in another big bust, this one involving a group called "DrinkOrDie." The fact that people now face jail time for what had for years been a civil offense is another indication of the growing power of copyright owners -- not just software companies, but also the music and movie industries. These powerful lobbies are increasingly getting their way in Washington. In 1998, for example, Congress extended copyrights by 20 years after heavy lobbying by companies like Walt Disney Co., which was worried about losing copyrights on Mickey Mouse and other icons. On account of the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act, a programmer was kept in jail without trial for three weeks last year simply for writing some decryption software. And the entertainment industry is now lobbying Congress for it to force PC makers to fundamentally redesign computers to make some kinds of digital copying physically impossible. "Things have tipped too far," said Miriam Nisbet, legislative counsel with the American Library Association, which often testifies on copyright issues. "We are very much for protecting authors, but some sort of balance is very important." The software industry justifies the tough new laws by citing the economic harm it says it suffers from piracy. Many of the industry's claims, though, don't appear to bear close scrutiny. The industry often says, for example, that well more than 100,000 jobs are lost every year due to piracy. It comes up with that number through extrapolation: that if the industry would have sold, say, 20% more software had it not been for piracy, then it would also have had 20% more employees. Timothy F. Bresnahan, a Stanford University economist, dismissed the analysis as "goofy." "No industry executive would make that mistake," he said. The economic analysis about piracy was prepared by the International Planning and Research Corporation; the group, which works as a consultant to software groups such as the Business Software Alliance, said it stood by its analysis. The arrests tend to take up considerable federal resources: The DrinkOrDie bust came after a 14-month investigation involving multiple federal agencies. The busts are usually billed as major advances against computer crime. But some security experts, such as Lois Jacobson, chief executive of MIS Training Institute, a Framingham, Mass., security operation, wonder if law-enforcement resources wouldn't be more effectively used against potentially more serious problems, such as corporate computer break-ins. Also, the law requires judges deciding piracy cases to treat every copy of a pirated program as a lost sale, even though many people in the piracy world are students who couldn't afford to buy the programs they are downloading. The names of the software-piracy groups conjure images of anarchy-loving hackers. But the members typically turn out to be college students or middle-class professionals, often in the computer industry, with no other criminal records. All say they would have halted all of their trading had they been served with a civil warning. While not defending what they did, several Pirates facing sentencing say there were extenuating circumstances -- another reason they question if jail time is appropriate. And like many of those arrested, T. David Oliver of Illinois showed off racks of software he purchased legally at regular prices while a group member. Among the programs were copies of the Linux operating system -- which can be had for free, quite legally. Copyright 2002 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Thu Mar 21 20:26:47 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 20:26:47 -0800 Subject: SCN: Headlines in Papers -- A Humorous Bit Message-ID: <009901c1d16e$75bfdb00$7152fea9@desktop> And more to cheer you up. > Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 2:05 PM > Subject: Headlines in Papers > > 50 Actual Newspaper Headlines > > > > (collected by actual journalists) > > 1. Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Expert Says > > > > 2. Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers > > > > 3. Safety Experts Say School Bus Passengers Should Be Belted > > > > 4. Drunk Gets Nine Months in Violin Case > > > > 5. Survivor of Siamese Twins Joins Parents > > > > 6. Farmer Bill Dies in House > > > > 7. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms > > > > 8. Is There a Ring of Debris around Uranus? > > > > 9. Stud Tires Out > > > > 10. Prostitutes Appeal to Pope > > > > 11. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over > > > > 12. Soviet Virgin Lands Short of Goal Again > > > > 13. British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands > > > > 14. Lung Cancer in Women Mushrooms > > > > 15. Eye Drops off Shelf > > > > 16. Teacher Strikes Idle Kids > > > > 17. Reagan Wins on Budget, But More Lies Ahead > > > > 18. Squad Helps Dog Bite Victim > > > > 19. Shot Off Woman's Leg Helps Neckless to 66 > > > > 20. Enraged Cow Injures Farmer with Ax > > > > 21. Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told > > > > 22. Miners Refuse to Work after Death > > > > 23. Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant > > > > 24. Stolen Painting Found by Tree > > > > 25. Two Soviet Ships Collide, One Dies > > > > 26. Two Sisters Reunited after 18 Years in Checkout Counter > > > > 27. Killer Sentenced to Die for Second Time in 10 Years > > > > 28. Never Withhold Herpes Infection from Loved One > > > > 29. Drunken Drivers Paid $1000 in '84 > > > > 30. War Dims Hope for Peace > > > > 31. If Strike isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a While > > > > 32. Cold Wave Linked to Temperatures > > > > 33.Enfields Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide > > > > 34. Red Tape Holds Up New Bridge > > > > 35. Deer Kill 17,000 > > > > 36. Typhoon Rips Through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead > > > > 37. Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge > > > > 38. New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group > > > > 39. Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Spacecraft > > > > 40. Kids Make Nutritious Snacks > > > > 41. Chef Throws His Heart into Helping Feed Needy > > > > 42. Arson Suspect is Held in Massachusetts Fire > > > > 43. British Union Finds Dwarfs in Short Supply > > > > 44. Ban On Soliciting Dead in Trotwood > > > > 45. Lansing Residents Can Drop Off Trees > > > > 46. Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half > > > > 47. New Vaccine May Contain Rabies > > > > 48. Man Minus Ear Waives Hearing > > > > 49. Deaf College Opens Doors to Hearing > > > > 50. Air Head Fired > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From sender at demo.com Fri Mar 22 00:02:42 2002 From: sender at demo.com (sender at demo.com) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 03:02:42 -0500 Subject: SCN: Playboy Model Live!!!!!!!!! Message-ID: <200203220754.XAA16684@scn.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clariun at yahoo.com Fri Mar 22 09:55:00 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:55:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: General Meeting - agenga items? Message-ID: <20020322175500.73462.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Anyone have agenda items for the SCN general meeting on March 27th? The meeting will be held at the University Branch of the Seattle Public Library at 50th and Roosevelt, from 7 to 8:45. I will be there early to set-up. We can talk about: Discus (http://www.scn.org/discus) New volunteers Future possible (maybe) features for SCN - content and tools (okay JJ, calm down, it's okay :^)) Site redesign implementation Site redesign considerations World cup soccer Anything else? Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Mar 23 08:31:32 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 08:31:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out Message-ID: <20020323163132.24016.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> The webmaster for Prarienet.org contacted me about SCN, asking about monthly meetings and the such. I checked their site and they are similar to SCN with their "classic" dial up accounts. Also, they have regular PPP dial-up access. It's not free for the PPP, but it is pretty cheap. I haven't fully investigated their "business model", only taken a cursory glance at it. I'm only trying to create more controversy and squawking at SCN. Stir the pot. Just kidding. Prarienet Community Network is something to look at, though. http://www.prairienet.org Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jw4 at scn.org Sat Mar 23 19:35:05 2002 From: jw4 at scn.org (Joel Ware IV) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:35:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out In-Reply-To: <20020323163132.24016.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: More on Prairienet: Organizationally, they are part of the Graduate School of Library Science and Information Management at University of Illinois, Urbana/Champaign (UIUC). This year, 2002, is the first year that they are expected to be "self supporting". They list seven paid staff members, of which they say: "Prairienet full-time staff members are Academic Professional employees of the University of Illinois. The generous support of the friends and members of Prairienet contribute to staff salaries. Prairienet also receives administrative support from staff of the Graduate School of Library and Information Science. " -Joel. --- On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 08:31:32 -0800 (PST) > From: patrick fisher > To: excomm at scn.org, scn at scn.org, webeditors at scn.org > Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out > > The webmaster for Prarienet.org contacted me about SCN, asking about monthly > meetings and the such. > > I checked their site and they are similar to SCN with their "classic" dial up > accounts. Also, they have regular PPP dial-up access. It's not free for the PPP, but > it is pretty cheap. > > I haven't fully investigated their "business model", only taken a cursory glance at > it. > > I'm only trying to create more controversy and squawking at SCN. Stir the pot. > > Just kidding. > > Prarienet Community Network is something to look at, though. > > http://www.prairienet.org > > Patrick > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Joel Ware, IV jw4 at scn.org Volunteer Coordinator Emeritus, Member of Governance, HR, Ops, Board * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Sat Mar 23 23:38:56 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 23:38:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So looking over several examples of nominally successful not-for-profit ISP and similar entities shows a trend: their "business" model is to associate with some large school where there is a lot of money, excess bandwidth, facilities, and cheap graduate students, and no particular concern about meeting quarterly profit targets. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Mar 24 12:46:31 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:46:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020324204631.56826.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> It wasn't my intent to compare SCN to other not-for-profits. If that is how it is being interpreted. I was only presenting an example that it can work, one way or another. Patrick --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > So looking over several examples of nominally successful not-for-profit > ISP and similar entities shows a trend: their "business" model is to > associate with some large school where there is a lot of money, excess > bandwidth, facilities, and cheap graduate students, and no particular > concern about meeting quarterly profit targets. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Mar 24 13:07:12 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:07:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: new and improved Message-ID: <20020324210712.52920.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> We have a new topic editor, Chantha, for the Recreation community section of SCN Communities. Also, a reminder: There will be a general meeting at the University Branch of the Seattle Public Library at 50th and Roosevelt this Wednesday. The meeting will begin at 7 and run until 8:45 or until we are kicked out by the librarians. I'll be there early, at 6:30, to meet potential topic editors. Everyone is invited and please bring agenda items if you have any. Thanks, Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Mar 24 14:52:15 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:52:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: hearing until it sticks Message-ID: <20020324225215.12015.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Someone once told me that sometimes people have to hear something at least seven times until they do hear the message, process the message, and register it. Sometimes it takes me twice that many times to register what I hear. Not always, but sometimes. Now that I single again, I am permitted to be as obtuse as that at home and not suffer any dire consequences. With that all in mind, in mind, in mind, in mind, in mind, in mind, in mind (sorry), I've updated the webmaster notes page which you can access from the SCN home page. The information there should keep you abreast of what is going on at SCN. Thanks, Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Mon Mar 25 15:02:44 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:02:44 -0800 Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out Message-ID: <008101c1d453$544d2300$7152fea9@desktop> Actually, this is an assumption (that the university structure means that Prairienet's methods won't work for SCNA). It sounds to me like the methods of this group should be thoroughly investigated, to the point of -- when enough has been learned -- having Patrick and others from the Ops Committee fly out and spend a few days talking to these folks. In one way or another, they have accomplished what SCNA has not been able to do: (1) PPP capability; (2) much better level of financial support; and (3) paid staff. It is possible that very little of their methods willl apply to SCNA, but it is important to do an in-depth examination of them IN CASE they have much to show us. ----- Original Message ----- From: J. Johnson To: Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:38 PM Subject: Re: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out > So looking over several examples of nominally successful not-for-profit > ISP and similar entities shows a trend: their "business" model is to > associate with some large school where there is a lot of money, excess > bandwidth, facilities, and cheap graduate students, and no particular > concern about meeting quarterly profit targets. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Mar 25 15:34:29 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:34:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out In-Reply-To: <008101c1d453$544d2300$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: <20020325233429.85393.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> I think we are busy enough right now. And there is too much to do before SCN could even consider such a plan. However, it was I who asked that the pot be stirred. My only point to bringing up Prarienet is that someone, somewhere, is providing low-cost internet service. Somehow. I didn't mean to imply anything else. P- --- emailer1 wrote: > Actually, this is an assumption (that the university structure means that > Prairienet's methods won't work for SCNA). It sounds to me like the methods > of this group should be thoroughly investigated, to the point of -- when > enough has been learned -- having Patrick and others from the Ops Committee > fly out and spend a few days talking to these folks. In one way or another, > they have accomplished what SCNA has not been able to do: (1) PPP > capability; (2) much better level of financial support; and (3) paid staff. > It is possible that very little of their methods willl apply to SCNA, but it > is important to do an in-depth examination of them IN CASE they have much to > show us. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J. Johnson > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:38 PM > Subject: Re: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out > > > > So looking over several examples of nominally successful not-for-profit > > ISP and similar entities shows a trend: their "business" model is to > > associate with some large school where there is a lot of money, excess > > bandwidth, facilities, and cheap graduate students, and no particular > > concern about meeting quarterly profit targets. > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From emailer1 at netzero.net Mon Mar 25 15:31:24 2002 From: emailer1 at netzero.net (emailer1) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:31:24 -0800 Subject: SCN: Fw: Urban Politics #127 - MONORAIL LEGISLATION UPDATE Message-ID: <00a001c1d455$f08d8640$7152fea9@desktop> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 10:09 PM Subject: Urban Politics #127 - MONORAIL LEGISLATION UPDATE > RESOLUTION ON USE OF CITY RIGHT-OF-WAY > > At Friday's (3/22/02) Monorail Ad-Hoc Committee meeting, I sponsored a > resolution "stating the intent of the Seattle City Council and Mayor to allow > use of City right-of-way to construct and/or operate a monorail transit > system in Seattle, and to negotiate an agreement with a future Seattle > Popular Transit Authority (SPTA) to allow this use." > > The committee members (Licata, Conlin, Nicastro, Wills) passed the > resolution by a 4-0 vote. It now moves on to a vote at the Full Council on > Monday, April 1. The Elevated Transportation Company (ETC) requested this > resolution on the use of right of way. > > The resolution is designed to meet the spirit of Initiative 53, the measure > passed by Seattle voters in November, 2000. Initiative 53 stated "The City > must facilitate this measure in any way needed including…dedication or use of > any rights of way." > > Clarification on the use of right of way also helps the ETC in preparing cost > estimates. In addition, the resolution sends a signal to firms that might bid > on a monorail that the City is serious in following through on the monorail > effort, if voters choose to pursue it. An agreement will be drawn up between > the City and the ETC or successor agency to implement use of street right of > way, if the voters pass a monorail measure. > > The ETC is planning to submit a measure to the City in early August, and is > preparing for a November ballot. > MONORAIL AD-HOC COMMITTEE FUTURE ITEMS > > The timeline of the monorail is very rapid. In the next few weeks, I will > send out an edition of Urban Politics with additional information on the > schedule for the City's consideration of the monorail plan, and the timeline > for meetings of the Monorail Ad-Hoc Committee. > > COUNCIL MEMBER & MAYOR E-MAILS > > Heidi.Wills at ci.seattle.wa.us > Richard.McIver at ci.seattle.wa.us > Jan.Drago at ci.seattle.wa.us > Judy.Nicastro at ci.seattle.wa.us > Margaret.Pageler at ci.seattle.wa.us > Jim.Compton at ci.seattle.wa.us > Peter.Steinbrueck at ci.seattle.wa.us > Richard.Conlin at ci.seattle.wa.us > Nick.Licata at ci.seattle.wa.us > > Mayors.office at ci.seattle.wa.us > > SUBSCRIPTION INSTRUCTIONS ---- > > --Send all messages to Majordomo at lists.speakeasy.org > --Type these requests in the body of the message. > --To Unsubscribe: type unsubscribe urbanpolitics > --To Subscribe: type subscribe urbanpolitics > --To Change email addresses use the two lines above in the same > message but on separate lines. > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Mar 25 15:48:14 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:48:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Fw: Urban Politics #127 - MONORAIL LEGISLATION UPDATE In-Reply-To: <00a001c1d455$f08d8640$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: <20020325234814.98420.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Who is NickelT at Aol.com? What is their specific view on this matter? Emailer: What is your view on this matter? Patrick --- emailer1 wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 10:09 PM > Subject: Urban Politics #127 - MONORAIL LEGISLATION UPDATE > > > > RESOLUTION ON USE OF CITY RIGHT-OF-WAY > > > > At Friday's (3/22/02) Monorail Ad-Hoc Committee meeting, I sponsored a > > resolution "stating the intent of the Seattle City Council and Mayor to > allow > > use of City right-of-way to construct and/or operate a monorail transit > > system in Seattle, and to negotiate an agreement with a future Seattle > > Popular Transit Authority (SPTA) to allow this use." > > > > The committee members (Licata, Conlin, Nicastro, Wills) passed the > > resolution by a 4-0 vote. It now moves on to a vote at the Full Council on > > Monday, April 1. The Elevated Transportation Company (ETC) requested this > > resolution on the use of right of way. > > > > The resolution is designed to meet the spirit of Initiative 53, the > measure > > passed by Seattle voters in November, 2000. Initiative 53 stated "The City > > must facilitate this measure in any way needed including…dedication or use > of > > any rights of way." > > > > Clarification on the use of right of way also helps the ETC in preparing > cost > > estimates. In addition, the resolution sends a signal to firms that might > bid > > on a monorail that the City is serious in following through on the > monorail > > effort, if voters choose to pursue it. An agreement will be drawn up > between > > the City and the ETC or successor agency to implement use of street right > of > > way, if the voters pass a monorail measure. > > > > The ETC is planning to submit a measure to the City in early August, and > is > > preparing for a November ballot. > > > MONORAIL AD-HOC COMMITTEE FUTURE ITEMS > > > > The timeline of the monorail is very rapid. In the next few weeks, I will > > send out an edition of Urban Politics with additional information on the > > schedule for the City's consideration of the monorail plan, and the > timeline > > for meetings of the Monorail Ad-Hoc Committee. > > > > COUNCIL MEMBER & MAYOR E-MAILS > > > > Heidi.Wills at ci.seattle.wa.us > > Richard.McIver at ci.seattle.wa.us > > Jan.Drago at ci.seattle.wa.us > > Judy.Nicastro at ci.seattle.wa.us > > Margaret.Pageler at ci.seattle.wa.us > > Jim.Compton at ci.seattle.wa.us > > Peter.Steinbrueck at ci.seattle.wa.us > > Richard.Conlin at ci.seattle.wa.us > > Nick.Licata at ci.seattle.wa.us > > > > Mayors.office at ci.seattle.wa.us > > > > SUBSCRIPTION INSTRUCTIONS ---- > > > > --Send all messages to Majordomo at lists.speakeasy.org > > --Type these requests in the body of the message. > > --To Unsubscribe: type unsubscribe urbanpolitics > > --To Subscribe: type subscribe urbanpolitics > > --To Change email addresses use the two lines above in the same > > message but on separate lines. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Mon Mar 25 17:28:10 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:28:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out In-Reply-To: <008101c1d453$544d2300$7152fea9@desktop> Message-ID: Au contraire. I think that the "university structure" of "business" model could work quite well for SCN. We "merely" find enough well placed people at the U. who have influence (I presume at least professors here) and access to resources (such as facilities, bandwidth, paid staff, etc.), and have them take over. Oh, and re-write the articles of incorporation. Of course, then it wouldn't be SCN any more. === JJ ============================================================= On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, emailer1 wrote: > Actually, this is an assumption (that the university structure means that > Prairienet's methods won't work for SCNA). It sounds to me like the methods > of this group should be thoroughly investigated, to the point of -- when > enough has been learned -- having Patrick and others from the Ops Committee > fly out and spend a few days talking to these folks. In one way or another, > they have accomplished what SCNA has not been able to do: (1) PPP > capability; (2) much better level of financial support; and (3) paid staff. > It is possible that very little of their methods willl apply to SCNA, but it > is important to do an in-depth examination of them IN CASE they have much to > show us. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: J. Johnson > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:38 PM > Subject: Re: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out > > > > So looking over several examples of nominally successful not-for-profit > > ISP and similar entities shows a trend: their "business" model is to > > associate with some large school where there is a lot of money, excess > > bandwidth, facilities, and cheap graduate students, and no particular > > concern about meeting quarterly profit targets. > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Mon Mar 25 18:49:14 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:49:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020326024914.16209.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> I don't want to delve into this too much as there is enough to do right now, but I feel that something could be worked out with some organization, like an ISP donating some resources. Again, that is probably not something that should be looked at at this time. What we need is more volunteers. From my end, we need more topic editors. Patrick --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > Au contraire. I think that the "university structure" of "business" model > could work quite well for SCN. We "merely" find enough well placed people > at the U. who have influence (I presume at least professors here) and > access to resources (such as facilities, bandwidth, paid staff, etc.), and > have them take over. Oh, and re-write the articles of incorporation. > > Of course, then it wouldn't be SCN any more. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, emailer1 wrote: > > > Actually, this is an assumption (that the university structure means that > > Prairienet's methods won't work for SCNA). It sounds to me like the methods > > of this group should be thoroughly investigated, to the point of -- when > > enough has been learned -- having Patrick and others from the Ops Committee > > fly out and spend a few days talking to these folks. In one way or another, > > they have accomplished what SCNA has not been able to do: (1) PPP > > capability; (2) much better level of financial support; and (3) paid staff. > > It is possible that very little of their methods willl apply to SCNA, but it > > is important to do an in-depth examination of them IN CASE they have much to > > show us. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: J. Johnson > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:38 PM > > Subject: Re: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out > > > > > > > So looking over several examples of nominally successful not-for-profit > > > ISP and similar entities shows a trend: their "business" model is to > > > associate with some large school where there is a lot of money, excess > > > bandwidth, facilities, and cheap graduate students, and no particular > > > concern about meeting quarterly profit targets. > > > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Mon Mar 25 19:24:43 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:24:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out In-Reply-To: <20020326024914.16209.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It's probably not in the interest of an ISP to help us become a better alternative to their services. But while more donations would certainly be nice, that quickly gets tangled up into various policy and political issues. And I'm quite happy to leave such matters to those who have elected to take them on--i.e., the Board. === JJ ============================================================= On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > I don't want to delve into this too much as there is enough to do right > now, but I feel that something could be worked out with some > organization, like an ISP donating some resources. > > Again, that is probably not something that should be looked at at this time. > > What we need is more volunteers. From my end, we need more topic editors. > > Patrick * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From design at eskimo.com Tue Mar 26 00:24:36 2002 From: design at eskimo.com (Jim Loring) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:24:36 -0800 Subject: SCN: Hello? Message-ID: Hello All - Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about the topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material such as web pages? It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make it easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find information. It would also be easier to edit the various sections. I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, and make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will. Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep SCN useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date reference. So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on Wednesday. Cheers! Jim Loring webeditors at scn.org Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Tue Mar 26 01:36:18 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 01:36:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Hello? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you intend to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that certain content is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change its URLs: If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist. That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would certainly want to know your criteria before I endorsed this. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > Hello All - > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about the > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material such as > web pages? > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make it > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find information. It > would also be easier to edit the various sections. > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, and > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will. > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep SCN > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date reference. > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on Wednesday. > > Cheers! > > Jim Loring > webeditors at scn.org > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology" > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From dichter at scn.org Tue Mar 26 05:54:32 2002 From: dichter at scn.org (Burke Dykes) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:54:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Fw: Urban Politics #127 - MONORAIL LEGISLATION UPDATE In-Reply-To: <20020325234814.98420.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patrick, Nick Licata is a member of the Seattle City Council Burke On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > Who is NickelT at Aol.com? > ======================================================================= From: Burke Dykes | I have gone out to look for myself. In: West Seattle, WA | If I should return before I get back, AKA: burked at eskimo.com | hold me until I get here. ======================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Mar 26 08:20:28 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:20:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Fw: Urban Politics #127 - MONORAIL LEGISLATION UPDATE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020326162028.46025.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> I knew that. I just didn't know who NickelT at Aol.com was. At first I thought it was Greg Nickels. --- Burke Dykes wrote: > > > Patrick, > > > Nick Licata is a member of the Seattle City Council > > > Burke > > > On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > Who is NickelT at Aol.com? > > > > > ======================================================================= > From: Burke Dykes | I have gone out to look for myself. > In: West Seattle, WA | If I should return before I get back, > AKA: burked at eskimo.com | hold me until I get here. > ======================================================================= > > > ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From design at eskimo.com Tue Mar 26 09:35:41 2002 From: design at eskimo.com (Jim Loring) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:35:41 -0800 Subject: SCN: Hello? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Joe for responding. You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older and/or previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of some importance to figure some way of determining what material is no longer current. In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices changes the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet this method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and modifications. Interesting points, Joe. -----Original Message----- From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM To: Jim Loring Cc: scn at scn.org Subject: Re: SCN: Hello? It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you intend to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that certain content is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change its URLs: If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist. That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would certainly want to know your criteria before I endorsed this. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > Hello All - > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about the > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material such as > web pages? > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make it > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find information. It > would also be easier to edit the various sections. > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, and > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will. > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep SCN > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date reference. > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on Wednesday. > > Cheers! > > Jim Loring > webeditors at scn.org > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology" > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Mar 26 10:08:57 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:08:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Windows FTP programs Message-ID: <20020326180857.8832.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> I posed this problem to JJ, but since he doesn't use Windows... People have been having trouble FTping to SCN since the new server went up. They get 530 errors. Fetch on my Mac works fine, all my other FTP programs are locked out. We have a new volunteer who uses Windows and is getting the same 530 error. Is there a Windows program that is successfully allowing people to FTP into SCN? (And apologies to JJ because I did not first wait for him to respond. However, maybe someone out there who uses Windows in the SCN community has had success with FTP.) Thanks, Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From design at eskimo.com Tue Mar 26 10:39:01 2002 From: design at eskimo.com (Jim Loring) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:39:01 -0800 Subject: SCN: RE: Windows FTP programs In-Reply-To: <20020326180857.8832.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well, I've found that CuteFTP works fine. You can take a look at it at http://www.cuteftp.com/products/cuteftp/index.shtml. Cheers! - Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of patrick fisher Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 10:09 AM To: scn at scn.org Cc: Chantha Khamphasouk Subject: SCN: Windows FTP programs I posed this problem to JJ, but since he doesn't use Windows... People have been having trouble FTping to SCN since the new server went up. They get 530 errors. Fetch on my Mac works fine, all my other FTP programs are locked out. We have a new volunteer who uses Windows and is getting the same 530 error. Is there a Windows program that is successfully allowing people to FTP into SCN? (And apologies to JJ because I did not first wait for him to respond. However, maybe someone out there who uses Windows in the SCN community has had success with FTP.) Thanks, Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Mar 26 12:46:31 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:46:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: government website accessibility Message-ID: <20020326204631.57191.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> as anyone tried to hit a government web site, only to find out that they need the latest and greatest browser? And to have that browswer they may need the latest adn greatest operating system? And to have the OS, they may need the latest and greatest hardware, possible? And have you gone online to a government site to apply for a job and you need the lastest version of MS Word? Not everyone has the lastest version of Word. Not everyone owns a PC. Some of us have Macs and can't afford to have MS Office. Why does the government make such a stink out of accessiblity for all people (which is good, don't get me wrong), when information on its sites are restricted to a certain class of people? Why should I have to have the lastest browser (according to the Washington State Parks site) in order to view a stupid park map? I must give credit to the Washington State Park system people for now telling me that I can use Netscape version 4.7 and higher (their site said I needed the lastest/greatest). I was pleasantly surprised at their responsiveness, and that they did not tell Mac-me to go out and get a PC. The county was recently helpful when something did not work right on their site because I use a Mac. Anyway, I assume that those who pass the laws probably have computers and DSL and all that and are not considerate to the entire population. They eat their Prime Rib and seven course meals at the capital while they cut food programs. As you can probably ascertain, I have a certain opinion about this topic. I really feel, that among all things, access to information (and education and all that good stuff) is probably the most valuable asset a society can have. I suppose that this topic has been overlooked by the people who run the state and local governments. Maybe not enough people have complained. Even for some of us, we have internet access at work, we are using ancient browsers (that is how things work in corporate America sometimes), and we can't have access to sites as well. What is my answer to this? I don't think SCN can influence legislation without getting into trouble (I think, please don't quote me on this, and I don't think it is SCN's mission). However, SCN can provide a place for forums to discuss this, as part of the long-range plan to have more content and drive eyeballs to SCN. My personal opinion on this: My suggestion is that I hope people with "lesser" browsers and computer systems, will take the time to complain on this issue to those sites that limit accessibility. Okay, off my soapbox, and thank you, Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Mar 26 13:09:28 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:09:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: government website accessibility In-Reply-To: <20020326204631.57191.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This issue is probably worth a letter ... from SCNA. It would be great if the organization would work in these directions from time to time. Also -- on another note. Any word on the new logo (that no one apparently wants)? As far as I know there was NO INPUT from a single board member on this issue in this forum. If discussion here was any indication there is strong resistance to the idea of deserting (sp) Hermes (not when we need him most!)... -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * ****************************************************************** On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > as anyone tried to hit a government web site, only to find out that they need the > latest and greatest browser? And to have that browswer they may need the latest adn > greatest operating system? And to have the OS, they may need the latest and greatest > hardware, possible? > > And have you gone online to a government site to apply for a job and you need the > lastest version of MS Word? Not everyone has the lastest version of Word. Not > everyone owns a PC. Some of us have Macs and can't afford to have MS Office. > > Why does the government make such a stink out of accessiblity for all people (which > is good, don't get me wrong), when information on its sites are restricted to a > certain class of people? > > Why should I have to have the lastest browser (according to the Washington State > Parks site) in order to view a stupid park map? > > I must give credit to the Washington State Park system people for now telling me > that I can use Netscape version 4.7 and higher (their site said I needed the > lastest/greatest). I was pleasantly surprised at their responsiveness, and that they > did not tell Mac-me to go out and get a PC. > > The county was recently helpful when something did not work right on their site > because I use a Mac. > > Anyway, I assume that those who pass the laws probably have computers and DSL and > all that and are not considerate to the entire population. They eat their Prime Rib > and seven course meals at the capital while they cut food programs. > > As you can probably ascertain, I have a certain opinion about this topic. I really > feel, that among all things, access to information (and education and all that good > stuff) is probably the most valuable asset a society can have. > > I suppose that this topic has been overlooked by the people who run the state and > local governments. Maybe not enough people have complained. > > Even for some of us, we have internet access at work, we are using ancient browsers > (that is how things work in corporate America sometimes), and we can't have access > to sites as well. > > What is my answer to this? I don't think SCN can influence legislation without > getting into trouble (I think, please don't quote me on this, and I don't think it > is SCN's mission). However, SCN can provide a place for forums to discuss this, as > part of the long-range plan to have more content and drive eyeballs to SCN. > > My personal opinion on this: My suggestion is that I hope people with "lesser" > browsers and computer systems, will take the time to complain on this issue to those > sites that limit accessibility. > > Okay, off my soapbox, and thank you, > Patrick > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Tue Mar 26 13:17:22 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:17:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: JJ et al, I've always been in favor of at least looking into various types of "strategic alliances" and one with, say, a UW department is one of the ones that I'd be most interested in looking into. A model like the one JJ mentioned would obviously be undesirable but there may be partnership models that really worked to both party's advantage. After all, SCN and SPL have a fairly reasonable partnering arrangement that seems to work to both of advantage. As with other ideas that would have a wide impact this would have to be studied. I think that members would like to see pros and cons before any sort of decision would be made. If people were interested in this they'd need to set up some of study group to do so (IMO). -- doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * ****************************************************************** On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, J. Johnson wrote: > Au contraire. I think that the "university structure" of "business" model > could work quite well for SCN. We "merely" find enough well placed people > at the U. who have influence (I presume at least professors here) and > access to resources (such as facilities, bandwidth, paid staff, etc.), and > have them take over. Oh, and re-write the articles of incorporation. > > Of course, then it wouldn't be SCN any more. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, emailer1 wrote: > > > Actually, this is an assumption (that the university structure means that > > Prairienet's methods won't work for SCNA). It sounds to me like the methods > > of this group should be thoroughly investigated, to the point of -- when > > enough has been learned -- having Patrick and others from the Ops Committee > > fly out and spend a few days talking to these folks. In one way or another, > > they have accomplished what SCNA has not been able to do: (1) PPP > > capability; (2) much better level of financial support; and (3) paid staff. > > It is possible that very little of their methods willl apply to SCNA, but it > > is important to do an in-depth examination of them IN CASE they have much to > > show us. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: J. Johnson > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:38 PM > > Subject: Re: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out > > > > > > > So looking over several examples of nominally successful not-for-profit > > > ISP and similar entities shows a trend: their "business" model is to > > > associate with some large school where there is a lot of money, excess > > > bandwidth, facilities, and cheap graduate students, and no particular > > > concern about meeting quarterly profit targets. > > > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jgelmis at earthlink.net Tue Mar 26 16:33:55 2002 From: jgelmis at earthlink.net (jgelmis at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:33:55 Subject: SCN: HUGE VOLUME TODAY ! ITET ! Time:4:33:55 PM Message-ID: <3C9C5B2700031293@servidor.serviciosbybltda.cl> (added by servidor.serviciosbybltda.cl) Dear, Mr. sundancr, Hello VOLUME SURGE TODAY! KEEP AN EYE ON IT!!!! RIGHT NOW ONLY .06 !!!! 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As in compliance with the Securities Act of 1933, Section 17(b), any and all compensation received from a company is publicly stated. Once again, all compensation if any can be found below.Timing Picks has been compensated thirty-thousand shares for this profile. To be removed from this newsletter return mail with "remove" in the subject line. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From khamphas at juno.com Tue Mar 26 15:15:42 2002 From: khamphas at juno.com (khamphas at juno.com) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:15:42 GMT Subject: SCN: ftp'ing Message-ID: <20020326.151627.29395.75835@wm3.wlv.juno.com> Hi, I still can't ftp into ftp.scn.org using CuteFTP. Has my SCN account been added to the ftp server/authentication? Because when I try using my account username, bq327, I get this response STATUS:> Connecting to ftp.scn.org (ip = 209.63.95.146) STATUS:> Socket connected. Waiting for welcome message... 220 scn FTP server (SunOS 4.1) ready. STATUS:> Connected. Authenticating... COMMAND:> USER bq327 530 User bq327 access denied. But, using someone else username, such as lee (who seems to already be in the ftp server/authentication), I get this repsonse, STATUS:> Connecting to ftp.scn.org (ip = 209.63.95.146) STATUS:> Socket connected. Waiting for welcome message... 220 scn FTP server (SunOS 4.1) ready. STATUS:> Connected. Authenticating... COMMAND:> USER lee 331 Password required for lee. COMMAND:> PASS ******** 530 Login incorrect. Thanks! Chantha ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Mar 26 16:40:31 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:40:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: government website accessibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020327004032.44606.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, I haven't heard back from the board as to the why's and when's. All I know is that the logo has not been decided on. My personal feelings: I like the elements of the current SCN logo. However, the logo has to be completely redone if I were to choose. Hermes arms are too long, legs too short, and some people think that the Space Needle is too phallic. Among other reasons. I will keep everyone posted: If I hear anything. Thanks, Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > This issue is probably worth a letter ... from SCNA. It would be great if > the organization would work in these directions from time to time. > > Also -- on another note. Any word on the new logo (that no one apparently > wants)? As far as I know there was NO INPUT from a single board member on > this issue in this forum. If discussion here was any indication there is > strong resistance to the idea of deserting (sp) Hermes (not when we need > him most!)... > > -- Doug > > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > as anyone tried to hit a government web site, only to find out that they need > the > > latest and greatest browser? And to have that browswer they may need the latest > adn > > greatest operating system? And to have the OS, they may need the latest and > greatest > > hardware, possible? > > > > And have you gone online to a government site to apply for a job and you need > the > > lastest version of MS Word? Not everyone has the lastest version of Word. Not > > everyone owns a PC. Some of us have Macs and can't afford to have MS Office. > > > > Why does the government make such a stink out of accessiblity for all people > (which > > is good, don't get me wrong), when information on its sites are restricted to a > > certain class of people? > > > > Why should I have to have the lastest browser (according to the Washington State > > Parks site) in order to view a stupid park map? > > > > I must give credit to the Washington State Park system people for now telling me > > that I can use Netscape version 4.7 and higher (their site said I needed the > > lastest/greatest). I was pleasantly surprised at their responsiveness, and that > they > > did not tell Mac-me to go out and get a PC. > > > > The county was recently helpful when something did not work right on their site > > because I use a Mac. > > > > Anyway, I assume that those who pass the laws probably have computers and DSL > and > > all that and are not considerate to the entire population. They eat their Prime > Rib > > and seven course meals at the capital while they cut food programs. > > > > As you can probably ascertain, I have a certain opinion about this topic. I > really > > feel, that among all things, access to information (and education and all that > good > > stuff) is probably the most valuable asset a society can have. > > > > I suppose that this topic has been overlooked by the people who run the state > and > > local governments. Maybe not enough people have complained. > > > > Even for some of us, we have internet access at work, we are using ancient > browsers > > (that is how things work in corporate America sometimes), and we can't have > access > > to sites as well. > > > > What is my answer to this? I don't think SCN can influence legislation without > > getting into trouble (I think, please don't quote me on this, and I don't think > it > > is SCN's mission). However, SCN can provide a place for forums to discuss this, > as > > part of the long-range plan to have more content and drive eyeballs to SCN. > > > > My personal opinion on this: My suggestion is that I hope people with "lesser" > > browsers and computer systems, will take the time to complain on this issue to > those > > sites that limit accessibility. > > > > Okay, off my soapbox, and thank you, > > Patrick > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jw4 at scn.org Tue Mar 26 16:59:05 2002 From: jw4 at scn.org (Joel Ware IV) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:59:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: ftp'ing In-Reply-To: <20020326.151627.29395.75835@wm3.wlv.juno.com> Message-ID: Chantha, This sounds like a problem for our help desk. I will forward it to them as a first step towards resolution. -Joel. -- On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 khamphas at juno.com wrote: > Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:15:42 GMT > From: khamphas at juno.com > To: scn at scn.org > Subject: SCN: ftp'ing > > Hi, > > I still can't ftp into ftp.scn.org using CuteFTP. > > Has my SCN account been added to the ftp server/authentication? Because when I try using my account username, bq327, I get this response > > STATUS:> Connecting to ftp.scn.org (ip = 209.63.95.146) > STATUS:> Socket connected. Waiting for welcome message... > 220 scn FTP server (SunOS 4.1) ready. > STATUS:> Connected. Authenticating... > COMMAND:> USER bq327 > 530 User bq327 access denied. > > But, using someone else username, such as lee (who seems to already be in the ftp server/authentication), I get this repsonse, > > STATUS:> Connecting to ftp.scn.org (ip = 209.63.95.146) > STATUS:> Socket connected. Waiting for welcome message... > 220 scn FTP server (SunOS 4.1) ready. > STATUS:> Connected. Authenticating... > COMMAND:> USER lee > 331 Password required for lee. > COMMAND:> PASS ******** > 530 Login incorrect. > > Thanks! > > Chantha > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > Joel Ware, IV jw4 at scn.org Volunteer Coordinator Emeritus, Member of Governance, HR, Ops, Board * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From design at eskimo.com Tue Mar 26 17:14:11 2002 From: design at eskimo.com (Jim Loring) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:14:11 -0800 Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out Message-ID: Doug raises an interesting point. Certainly the idea of partnering with some department of a university or similar organization would be interesting, and could perhaps be beneficial for SCN. As someone on this thread has pointed out, this would require carefully study. My question would be what SCN could offer a formal educational institution. Perhaps of more importance, and what I hope would be considered - is what such an alliance could do *for* us as well as *to* us? Tally-Ho! Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Doug Schuler Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:17 PM To: J. Johnson Cc: emailer1; scn at scn.org Subject: Re: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out JJ et al, I've always been in favor of at least looking into various types of "strategic alliances" and one with, say, a UW department is one of the ones that I'd be most interested in looking into. A model like the one JJ mentioned would obviously be undesirable but there may be partnership models that really worked to both party's advantage. After all, SCN and SPL have a fairly reasonable partnering arrangement that seems to work to both of advantage. As with other ideas that would have a wide impact this would have to be studied. I think that members would like to see pros and cons before any sort of decision would be made. If people were interested in this they'd need to set up some of study group to do so (IMO). -- doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * ****************************************************************** On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, J. Johnson wrote: > Au contraire. I think that the "university structure" of "business" model > could work quite well for SCN. We "merely" find enough well placed people > at the U. who have influence (I presume at least professors here) and > access to resources (such as facilities, bandwidth, paid staff, etc.), and > have them take over. Oh, and re-write the articles of incorporation. > > Of course, then it wouldn't be SCN any more. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, emailer1 wrote: > > > Actually, this is an assumption (that the university structure means that > > Prairienet's methods won't work for SCNA). It sounds to me like the methods > > of this group should be thoroughly investigated, to the point of -- when > > enough has been learned -- having Patrick and others from the Ops Committee > > fly out and spend a few days talking to these folks. In one way or another, > > they have accomplished what SCNA has not been able to do: (1) PPP > > capability; (2) much better level of financial support; and (3) paid staff. > > It is possible that very little of their methods willl apply to SCNA, but it > > is important to do an in-depth examination of them IN CASE they have much to > > show us. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: J. Johnson > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:38 PM > > Subject: Re: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out > > > > > > > So looking over several examples of nominally successful not-for-profit > > > ISP and similar entities shows a trend: their "business" model is to > > > associate with some large school where there is a lot of money, excess > > > bandwidth, facilities, and cheap graduate students, and no particular > > > concern about meeting quarterly profit targets. > > > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From femme2 at speakeasy.org Tue Mar 26 17:36:56 2002 From: femme2 at speakeasy.org (Lorraine Pozzi) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:36:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: government website accessibility In-Reply-To: <20020326204631.57191.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As I understand it, governmental sites are supposed to be available to people with various disabilities - so a plain text version should be accessible. Blind people, among others, use the Internet in some surprising ways. They've lobbied hard for access in a graphical environment. So if the site doesn't work - maybe a note to the Web- master (person) pointing out violation of the ADA regs would be useful. Lorraine -------------------------- On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > as anyone tried to hit a government web site, only to find out that they need the > latest and greatest browser? And to have that browswer they may need the latest adn > greatest operating system? And to have the OS, they may need the latest and greatest > hardware, possible? > > And have you gone online to a government site to apply for a job and you need the > lastest version of MS Word? Not everyone has the lastest version of Word. Not > everyone owns a PC. Some of us have Macs and can't afford to have MS Office. > > Why does the government make such a stink out of accessiblity for all people (which > is good, don't get me wrong), when information on its sites are restricted to a > certain class of people? > > Why should I have to have the lastest browser (according to the Washington State > Parks site) in order to view a stupid park map? > > I must give credit to the Washington State Park system people for now telling me > that I can use Netscape version 4.7 and higher (their site said I needed the > lastest/greatest). I was pleasantly surprised at their responsiveness, and that they > did not tell Mac-me to go out and get a PC. > > The county was recently helpful when something did not work right on their site > because I use a Mac. > > Anyway, I assume that those who pass the laws probably have computers and DSL and > all that and are not considerate to the entire population. They eat their Prime Rib > and seven course meals at the capital while they cut food programs. > > As you can probably ascertain, I have a certain opinion about this topic. I really > feel, that among all things, access to information (and education and all that good > stuff) is probably the most valuable asset a society can have. > > I suppose that this topic has been overlooked by the people who run the state and > local governments. Maybe not enough people have complained. > > Even for some of us, we have internet access at work, we are using ancient browsers > (that is how things work in corporate America sometimes), and we can't have access > to sites as well. > > What is my answer to this? I don't think SCN can influence legislation without > getting into trouble (I think, please don't quote me on this, and I don't think it > is SCN's mission). However, SCN can provide a place for forums to discuss this, as > part of the long-range plan to have more content and drive eyeballs to SCN. > > My personal opinion on this: My suggestion is that I hope people with "lesser" > browsers and computer systems, will take the time to complain on this issue to those > sites that limit accessibility. > > Okay, off my soapbox, and thank you, > Patrick > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Mar 26 18:50:31 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 18:50:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: government website accessibility In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020327025031.71384.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> I've tried that. But often it is like calling that number on the back of trucks that say "How is my driving", and you call and the number is to the person driving the truck. Patrick --- Lorraine Pozzi wrote: > > As I understand it, governmental sites are supposed to be available > to people with various disabilities - so a plain text version should > be accessible. Blind people, among others, use the Internet in > some surprising ways. They've lobbied hard for access in a graphical > environment. So if the site doesn't work - maybe a note to the Web- > master (person) pointing out violation of the ADA regs would be > useful. > > Lorraine > -------------------------- > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > as anyone tried to hit a government web site, only to find out that they need > the > > latest and greatest browser? And to have that browswer they may need the latest > adn > > greatest operating system? And to have the OS, they may need the latest and > greatest > > hardware, possible? > > > > And have you gone online to a government site to apply for a job and you need > the > > lastest version of MS Word? Not everyone has the lastest version of Word. Not > > everyone owns a PC. Some of us have Macs and can't afford to have MS Office. > > > > Why does the government make such a stink out of accessiblity for all people > (which > > is good, don't get me wrong), when information on its sites are restricted to a > > certain class of people? > > > > Why should I have to have the lastest browser (according to the Washington State > > Parks site) in order to view a stupid park map? > > > > I must give credit to the Washington State Park system people for now telling me > > that I can use Netscape version 4.7 and higher (their site said I needed the > > lastest/greatest). I was pleasantly surprised at their responsiveness, and that > they > > did not tell Mac-me to go out and get a PC. > > > > The county was recently helpful when something did not work right on their site > > because I use a Mac. > > > > Anyway, I assume that those who pass the laws probably have computers and DSL > and > > all that and are not considerate to the entire population. They eat their Prime > Rib > > and seven course meals at the capital while they cut food programs. > > > > As you can probably ascertain, I have a certain opinion about this topic. I > really > > feel, that among all things, access to information (and education and all that > good > > stuff) is probably the most valuable asset a society can have. > > > > I suppose that this topic has been overlooked by the people who run the state > and > > local governments. Maybe not enough people have complained. > > > > Even for some of us, we have internet access at work, we are using ancient > browsers > > (that is how things work in corporate America sometimes), and we can't have > access > > to sites as well. > > > > What is my answer to this? I don't think SCN can influence legislation without > > getting into trouble (I think, please don't quote me on this, and I don't think > it > > is SCN's mission). However, SCN can provide a place for forums to discuss this, > as > > part of the long-range plan to have more content and drive eyeballs to SCN. > > > > My personal opinion on this: My suggestion is that I hope people with "lesser" > > browsers and computer systems, will take the time to complain on this issue to > those > > sites that limit accessibility. > > > > Okay, off my soapbox, and thank you, > > Patrick > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From dichter at scn.org Tue Mar 26 19:44:13 2002 From: dichter at scn.org (Burke Dykes) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:44:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Windows FTP programs In-Reply-To: <20020326180857.8832.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have been using ws_ftp pro for quite some time now and have never had a problem with up/down loading to SCN. I do have ip access. Burke On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > I posed this problem to JJ, but since he doesn't use Windows... > > People have been having trouble FTping to SCN since the new server went up. They get > 530 errors. Fetch on my Mac works fine, all my other FTP programs are locked out. > > We have a new volunteer who uses Windows and is getting the same 530 error. > > Is there a Windows program that is successfully allowing people to FTP into SCN? > ======================================================================= From: Burke Dykes | I have gone out to look for myself. In: West Seattle, WA | If I should return before I get back, AKA: burked at eskimo.com | hold me until I get here. ======================================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Tue Mar 26 19:59:48 2002 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:59:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: ftp'ing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It should work now. -randy On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Joel Ware IV wrote: > Chantha, > This sounds like a problem for our help desk. > I will forward it to them as a first step towards resolution. > > -Joel. > > -- > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 khamphas at juno.com wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:15:42 GMT > > From: khamphas at juno.com > > To: scn at scn.org > > Subject: SCN: ftp'ing > > > > Hi, > > > > I still can't ftp into ftp.scn.org using CuteFTP. > > > > Has my SCN account been added to the ftp server/authentication? Because when I try using my account username, bq327, I get this response > > > > STATUS:> Connecting to ftp.scn.org (ip = 209.63.95.146) > > STATUS:> Socket connected. Waiting for welcome message... > > 220 scn FTP server (SunOS 4.1) ready. > > STATUS:> Connected. Authenticating... > > COMMAND:> USER bq327 > > 530 User bq327 access denied. > > > > But, using someone else username, such as lee (who seems to already be in the ftp server/authentication), I get this repsonse, > > > > STATUS:> Connecting to ftp.scn.org (ip = 209.63.95.146) > > STATUS:> Socket connected. Waiting for welcome message... > > 220 scn FTP server (SunOS 4.1) ready. > > STATUS:> Connected. Authenticating... > > COMMAND:> USER lee > > 331 Password required for lee. > > COMMAND:> PASS ******** > > 530 Login incorrect. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Chantha > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > Joel Ware, IV jw4 at scn.org > Volunteer Coordinator Emeritus, Member of Governance, HR, Ops, Board > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Tue Mar 26 20:02:24 2002 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:02:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Windows FTP programs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Which new server? The web server? Which 530 error? -randy On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Burke Dykes wrote: > > I have been using ws_ftp pro for quite some time now and have never had a > problem with up/down loading to SCN. I do have ip access. > > Burke > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > I posed this problem to JJ, but since he doesn't use Windows... > > > > People have been having trouble FTping to SCN since the new server went up. They get > > 530 errors. Fetch on my Mac works fine, all my other FTP programs are locked out. > > > > We have a new volunteer who uses Windows and is getting the same 530 error. > > > > Is there a Windows program that is successfully allowing people to FTP into SCN? > > > > ======================================================================= > From: Burke Dykes | I have gone out to look for myself. > In: West Seattle, WA | If I should return before I get back, > AKA: burked at eskimo.com | hold me until I get here. > ======================================================================= > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From randy at scn.org Tue Mar 26 20:04:04 2002 From: randy at scn.org (Randy Groves) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:04:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: ftp'ing In-Reply-To: <20020326.151627.29395.75835@wm3.wlv.juno.com> Message-ID: If this is the 530 error to which folks are referring, then this is because the account doesn't have FTP access enabled. -randy On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 khamphas at juno.com wrote: > Hi, > > I still can't ftp into ftp.scn.org using CuteFTP. > > Has my SCN account been added to the ftp server/authentication? Because when I try using my account username, bq327, I get this response > > STATUS:> Connecting to ftp.scn.org (ip = 209.63.95.146) > STATUS:> Socket connected. Waiting for welcome message... > 220 scn FTP server (SunOS 4.1) ready. > STATUS:> Connected. Authenticating... > COMMAND:> USER bq327 > 530 User bq327 access denied. > > But, using someone else username, such as lee (who seems to already be in the ftp server/authentication), I get this repsonse, > > STATUS:> Connecting to ftp.scn.org (ip = 209.63.95.146) > STATUS:> Socket connected. Waiting for welcome message... > 220 scn FTP server (SunOS 4.1) ready. > STATUS:> Connected. Authenticating... > COMMAND:> USER lee > 331 Password required for lee. > COMMAND:> PASS ******** > 530 Login incorrect. > > Thanks! > > Chantha > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From chantha_scn at yahoo.com Tue Mar 26 21:17:53 2002 From: chantha_scn at yahoo.com (Chantha) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 21:17:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: ftp'ing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020327051753.40363.qmail@web21306.mail.yahoo.com> Thank you! I can now ftp into ftp.scn.org (even with ws_ftp pro on win 98). Chantha --- Randy Groves wrote: > > If this is the 530 error to which folks are > referring, then this is > because the account doesn't have FTP access enabled. > > -randy > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 khamphas at juno.com wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I still can't ftp into ftp.scn.org using CuteFTP. > > > > Has my SCN account been added to the ftp > server/authentication? Because when I try using my > account username, bq327, I get this response > > > > STATUS:> Connecting to ftp.scn.org (ip = > 209.63.95.146) > > STATUS:> Socket connected. Waiting for welcome > message... > > 220 scn FTP server (SunOS 4.1) ready. > > STATUS:> Connected. Authenticating... > > COMMAND:> USER bq327 > > 530 User bq327 access denied. > > > > But, using someone else username, such as lee (who > seems to already be in the ftp > server/authentication), I get this repsonse, > > > > STATUS:> Connecting to ftp.scn.org (ip = > 209.63.95.146) > > STATUS:> Socket connected. Waiting for welcome > message... > > 220 scn FTP server (SunOS 4.1) ready. > > STATUS:> Connected. Authenticating... > > COMMAND:> USER lee > > 331 Password required for lee. > > COMMAND:> PASS ******** > > 530 Login incorrect. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Chantha > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for > less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * > * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message > to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, > type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also > available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * > * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * > * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available > on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * > http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Chantha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Tue Mar 26 22:09:58 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:09:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Hello? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So could you please elaborate (by example, or whatever) what you mean by outdated content? For example, I have pages in the Crisis Resource Directory that haven't been touched in a year. That's because I haven't had any new information in these categories. Does that make them irredeemably old? I sure don't think so. On the other hand, a page announcing an event can become completely outdated mere weeks after it is originally posted, because tse evenv is now past. So what do you have in mind? And what exactly do you propose to do with the "outdated" pages? -------------------- Joe Mabel On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > Thanks Joe for responding. > > You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older and/or > previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of some > importance to figure some way of determining what material is no longer > current. > > In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices changes > the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet this > method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and modifications. > > Interesting points, Joe. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org] > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM > To: Jim Loring > Cc: scn at scn.org > Subject: Re: SCN: Hello? > > > It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you > intend > to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that certain > content > is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change its > URLs: > If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist. > > That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such > demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would certainly want > to > know your criteria before I endorsed this. > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > Hello All - > > > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about the > > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material such > as > > web pages? > > > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make it > > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find information. > It > > would also be easier to edit the various sections. > > > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, and > > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will. > > > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep SCN > > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date reference. > > > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on > Wednesday. > > > > Cheers! > > > > Jim Loring > > webeditors at scn.org > > > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology" > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Tue Mar 26 22:16:08 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:16:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would suspect that we do not want to losesthe library as our web hosting site: they have been very god about our no-censorship approach. However, for all otheo purposes, the UW seems to me to be potentially as likely a partner as the Library. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > JJ et al, > > I've always been in favor of at least looking into various types > of "strategic alliances" and one with, say, a UW department > is one of the ones that I'd be most interested in looking into. > A model like the one JJ mentioned would obviously be undesirable > but there may be partnership models that really worked to > both party's advantage. After all, SCN and SPL have a > fairly reasonable partnering arrangement that seems to work > to both of advantage. > > As with other ideas that would have a wide impact this would > have to be studied. I think that members would like to see > pros and cons before any sort of decision would be made. If > people were interested in this they'd need to set up some of > study group to do so (IMO). > > -- doug > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, J. Johnson wrote: > > > Au contraire. I think that the "university structure" of "business" model > > could work quite well for SCN. We "merely" find enough well placed people > > at the U. who have influence (I presume at least professors here) and > > access to resources (such as facilities, bandwidth, paid staff, etc.), and > > have them take over. Oh, and re-write the articles of incorporation. > > > > Of course, then it wouldn't be SCN any more. > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, emailer1 wrote: > > > > > Actually, this is an assumption (that the university structure means that > > > Prairienet's methods won't work for SCNA). It sounds to me like the methods > > > of this group should be thoroughly investigated, to the point of -- when > > > enough has been learned -- having Patrick and others from the Ops Committee > > > fly out and spend a few days talking to these folks. In one way or another, > > > they have accomplished what SCNA has not been able to do: (1) PPP > > > capability; (2) much better level of financial support; and (3) paid staff. > > > It is possible that very little of their methods willl apply to SCNA, but it > > > is important to do an in-depth examination of them IN CASE they have much to > > > show us. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: J. Johnson > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:38 PM > > > Subject: Re: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out > > > > > > > > > > So looking over several examples of nominally successful not-for-profit > > > > ISP and similar entities shows a trend: their "business" model is to > > > > associate with some large school where there is a lot of money, excess > > > > bandwidth, facilities, and cheap graduate students, and no particular > > > > concern about meeting quarterly profit targets. > > > > > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Mar 26 22:38:22 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:38:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020327063822.92509.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I wanted to point out that I wasn't advocating anything by mentioning the other community network. Things are going just fine at SCN and the Seattle Public Library is wonderful. Prarienet does have something that is nice: low-cost internet access and grants they give out for free access, but it looks like they will have to be self-supporting in some way and who knows what will happen. The Telcos, DSL companies and the whole internet access thing, to include cellphone companies and long-distance companies: It all seems like a madhouse of one company falling, another rising, one buying this, the other buying that. How does anyone keep from going crazy? I'm sure some people are going crazy. So I just keep my regular phone line, no long distance, no cable, no cell. POTS: Plain Old Telephone System. Again, things are fine at SCN and there is too much to do, too many steps to take right now, too much going on. Those of us who are working on those things only see those things and that is plenty on the plate for now. Patrick --- Joe Mabel wrote: > I would suspect that we do not want to losesthe library as our web hosting site: > they have been very god about our no-censorship approach. However, for all otheo > purposes, the UW seems to me to be potentially as likely a partner as the > Library. > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > JJ et al, > > > > I've always been in favor of at least looking into various types > > of "strategic alliances" and one with, say, a UW department > > is one of the ones that I'd be most interested in looking into. > > A model like the one JJ mentioned would obviously be undesirable > > but there may be partnership models that really worked to > > both party's advantage. After all, SCN and SPL have a > > fairly reasonable partnering arrangement that seems to work > > to both of advantage. > > > > As with other ideas that would have a wide impact this would > > have to be studied. I think that members would like to see > > pros and cons before any sort of decision would be made. If > > people were interested in this they'd need to set up some of > > study group to do so (IMO). > > > > -- doug > > > > ****************************************************************** > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > * is being shaped today. * > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, J. Johnson wrote: > > > > > Au contraire. I think that the "university structure" of "business" model > > > could work quite well for SCN. We "merely" find enough well placed people > > > at the U. who have influence (I presume at least professors here) and > > > access to resources (such as facilities, bandwidth, paid staff, etc.), and > > > have them take over. Oh, and re-write the articles of incorporation. > > > > > > Of course, then it wouldn't be SCN any more. > > > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > > > On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, emailer1 wrote: > > > > > > > Actually, this is an assumption (that the university structure means that > > > > Prairienet's methods won't work for SCNA). It sounds to me like the methods > > > > of this group should be thoroughly investigated, to the point of -- when > > > > enough has been learned -- having Patrick and others from the Ops Committee > > > > fly out and spend a few days talking to these folks. In one way or another, > > > > they have accomplished what SCNA has not been able to do: (1) PPP > > > > capability; (2) much better level of financial support; and (3) paid staff. > > > > It is possible that very little of their methods willl apply to SCNA, but it > > > > is important to do an in-depth examination of them IN CASE they have much to > > > > show us. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: J. Johnson > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:38 PM > > > > Subject: Re: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out > > > > > > > > > > > > > So looking over several examples of nominally successful not-for-profit > > > > > ISP and similar entities shows a trend: their "business" model is to > > > > > associate with some large school where there is a lot of money, excess > > > > > bandwidth, facilities, and cheap graduate students, and no particular > > > > > concern about meeting quarterly profit targets. > > > > > > > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Mar 26 22:43:22 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:43:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Hello? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020327064322.96077.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> I can think of one example: The Volunteer Community Page had a lot of out of date stuff: Event information that was 2 years after the fact. Maybe by outdated, Jim means anachronistic? There is a lot of old stuff: Like information on meetings that don't take place anymore, email address galore for people who are no longer with the organization, procedures that don't occur now and have been supplanted by something else. SCN services, many of which are not occuring. Training, anyone? Gross generalizations, but that is what I see from my vantage point. Patrick --- Joe Mabel wrote: > So could you please elaborate (by example, or whatever) what you mean by > outdated content? For example, I have pages in the Crisis Resource Directory > that haven't been touched in a year. That's because I haven't had any new > information in these categories. Does that make them irredeemably old? I sure > don't think so. On the other hand, a page announcing an event can become > completely outdated mere weeks after it is originally posted, because tse evenv > is now past. > > So what do you have in mind? And what exactly do you propose to do with the > "outdated" pages? > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > Thanks Joe for responding. > > > > You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older and/or > > previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of some > > importance to figure some way of determining what material is no longer > > current. > > > > In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices changes > > the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet this > > method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and modifications. > > > > Interesting points, Joe. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org] > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM > > To: Jim Loring > > Cc: scn at scn.org > > Subject: Re: SCN: Hello? > > > > > > It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you > > intend > > to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that certain > > content > > is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change its > > URLs: > > If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist. > > > > That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such > > demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would certainly want > > to > > know your criteria before I endorsed this. > > > > -------------------- > > Joe Mabel > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > Hello All - > > > > > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about the > > > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material such > > as > > > web pages? > > > > > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make it > > > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find information. > > It > > > would also be easier to edit the various sections. > > > > > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, and > > > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will. > > > > > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep SCN > > > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date reference. > > > > > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on > > Wednesday. > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > Jim Loring > > > webeditors at scn.org > > > > > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology" > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Mar 26 22:53:39 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:53:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN General Meeting - Wednesday, March 27th Message-ID: <20020327065339.77229.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> SCN March 2002 monthly general meeting at the University Branch of the Seattle Public Library. 7 to 8:45. I'll be there at 6:30 to talk to a new volunteer about topic editor positions. If you need directions, please see the webmaster notes link on the SCN home page. A clickable map is available. Everyone is welcome. Please bring your agenda items if you have any. Otherwise, I will be forced to do coma-inducing Powerpoint presentations. Thanks, Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Tue Mar 26 22:53:57 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:53:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Hello? In-Reply-To: <20020327064322.96077.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Where it is our own SCN content - meetings that don't take place, etc - we should update the content! However, I strongly believe that even a page devoted to a meeting that no longer takes place should be modified to say "this page used to describe a meeting ..." etc. rather than be deleted, or you break someone else's link. Not sure what page you mean by "The Volunteer Community Page". Can you give a URL? -------------------- Joe Mabel On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > I can think of one example: The Volunteer Community Page had a lot of out of date > stuff: Event information that was 2 years after the fact. > > Maybe by outdated, Jim means anachronistic? There is a lot of old stuff: Like > information on meetings that don't take place anymore, email address galore for > people who are no longer with the organization, procedures that don't occur now and > have been supplanted by something else. SCN services, many of which are not > occuring. Training, anyone? > > Gross generalizations, but that is what I see from my vantage point. > > Patrick > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > So could you please elaborate (by example, or whatever) what you mean by > > outdated content? For example, I have pages in the Crisis Resource Directory > > that haven't been touched in a year. That's because I haven't had any new > > information in these categories. Does that make them irredeemably old? I sure > > don't think so. On the other hand, a page announcing an event can become > > completely outdated mere weeks after it is originally posted, because tse evenv > > is now past. > > > > So what do you have in mind? And what exactly do you propose to do with the > > "outdated" pages? > > > > -------------------- > > Joe Mabel > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > Thanks Joe for responding. > > > > > > You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older and/or > > > previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of some > > > importance to figure some way of determining what material is no longer > > > current. > > > > > > In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices changes > > > the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet this > > > method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and modifications. > > > > > > Interesting points, Joe. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org] > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM > > > To: Jim Loring > > > Cc: scn at scn.org > > > Subject: Re: SCN: Hello? > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you > > > intend > > > to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that certain > > > content > > > is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change its > > > URLs: > > > If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist. > > > > > > That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such > > > demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would certainly want > > > to > > > know your criteria before I endorsed this. > > > > > > -------------------- > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > Hello All - > > > > > > > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about the > > > > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material such > > > as > > > > web pages? > > > > > > > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make it > > > > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find information. > > > It > > > > would also be easier to edit the various sections. > > > > > > > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, and > > > > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will. > > > > > > > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep SCN > > > > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date reference. > > > > > > > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on > > > Wednesday. > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > Jim Loring > > > > webeditors at scn.org > > > > > > > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Tue Mar 26 23:05:05 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:05:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Hello? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020327070505.65524.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Joe, The clutter needs to be reduced. There can be a place for discontinued pages, information, which is what I think Jim is referring to. If it means breaking someone's link, then that is the way it has to be. My reasoning is this: We need to have as much valuable information as possible on SCN, which it has a great deal of. At the same time we need to balance that with usability. The Volunteer Community page is under SCN Communities. The old HTML file is still there. However, I cleaned up the section. Okay, back to beating a dead horse (for the last time): I have gone in circles and circles looking for information on SCN, not only because of the multitude of links, and not only because of the volume of data, but also because there is a lot of information that is not pertinent. When you have a lot of information that is not pertinent, it makes the very valuable information worthless if people can't find it. SCN is great. It deserves to be greater. Thanks, Patrick --- Joe Mabel wrote: > Where it is our own SCN content - meetings that don't take place, etc - we > should update the content! However, I strongly believe that even a page devoted > to a meeting that no longer takes place should be modified to say "this page > used to describe a meeting ..." etc. rather than be deleted, or you break > someone else's link. > > Not sure what page you mean by "The Volunteer Community Page". Can you give a > URL? > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > I can think of one example: The Volunteer Community Page had a lot of out of > date > > stuff: Event information that was 2 years after the fact. > > > > Maybe by outdated, Jim means anachronistic? There is a lot of old stuff: Like > > information on meetings that don't take place anymore, email address galore for > > people who are no longer with the organization, procedures that don't occur now > and > > have been supplanted by something else. SCN services, many of which are not > > occuring. Training, anyone? > > > > Gross generalizations, but that is what I see from my vantage point. > > > > Patrick > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > So could you please elaborate (by example, or whatever) what you mean by > > > outdated content? For example, I have pages in the Crisis Resource Directory > > > that haven't been touched in a year. That's because I haven't had any new > > > information in these categories. Does that make them irredeemably old? I sure > > > don't think so. On the other hand, a page announcing an event can become > > > completely outdated mere weeks after it is originally posted, because tse > evenv > > > is now past. > > > > > > So what do you have in mind? And what exactly do you propose to do with the > > > "outdated" pages? > > > > > > -------------------- > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > Thanks Joe for responding. > > > > > > > > You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older and/or > > > > previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of some > > > > importance to figure some way of determining what material is no longer > > > > current. > > > > > > > > In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices changes > > > > the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet this > > > > method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and modifications. > > > > > > > > Interesting points, Joe. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM > > > > To: Jim Loring > > > > Cc: scn at scn.org > > > > Subject: Re: SCN: Hello? > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you > > > > intend > > > > to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that certain > > > > content > > > > is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change its > > > > URLs: > > > > If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist. > > > > > > > > That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such > > > > demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would certainly want > > > > to > > > > know your criteria before I endorsed this. > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello All - > > > > > > > > > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about the > > > > > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material such > > > > as > > > > > web pages? > > > > > > > > > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make it > > > > > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find information. > > > > It > > > > > would also be easier to edit the various sections. > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, and > > > > > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will. > > > > > > > > > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep SCN > > > > > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date reference. > > > > > > > > > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on > > > > Wednesday. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > Jim Loring > > > > > webeditors at scn.org > > > > > > > > > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Tue Mar 26 23:14:59 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:14:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Hello? In-Reply-To: <20020327070505.65524.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Again, I will assert that the solution to this is not to delete pages and break other people's links. Speaking as someone who maintains an online directory, that is a way to create more work for someone else than you save for yourself. It's fine to delete the entire contents of a page and have it just say "the information you are seeking has been relocated to..." or "This page described a monthly meeting that no longer takes place. For information about see ." It's also fine (commendable even) to drop our own links to now-useless pages, which reduces the clutter from the point of view of users, although admittedly not from that of administrators. And it is simply commendable to get our content up to date. However, anyone who has tried to link into the City of Seattle's site can tell you that it is a royal pain in the ass to try to link into a site where they keep restructuring. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > Joe, > > The clutter needs to be reduced. There can be a place for discontinued pages, > information, which is what I think Jim is referring to. If it means breaking > someone's link, then that is the way it has to be. > > My reasoning is this: We need to have as much valuable information as possible on > SCN, which it has a great deal of. At the same time we need to balance that with > usability. > > The Volunteer Community page is under SCN Communities. The old HTML file is still > there. However, I cleaned up the section. > > Okay, back to beating a dead horse (for the last time): I have gone in circles and > circles looking for information on SCN, not only because of the multitude of links, > and not only because of the volume of data, but also because there is a lot of > information that is not pertinent. > > When you have a lot of information that is not pertinent, it makes the very valuable > information worthless if people can't find it. > > SCN is great. It deserves to be greater. > > Thanks, > Patrick > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > Where it is our own SCN content - meetings that don't take place, etc - we > > should update the content! However, I strongly believe that even a page devoted > > to a meeting that no longer takes place should be modified to say "this page > > used to describe a meeting ..." etc. rather than be deleted, or you break > > someone else's link. > > > > Not sure what page you mean by "The Volunteer Community Page". Can you give a > > URL? > > > > -------------------- > > Joe Mabel > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > I can think of one example: The Volunteer Community Page had a lot of out of > > date > > > stuff: Event information that was 2 years after the fact. > > > > > > Maybe by outdated, Jim means anachronistic? There is a lot of old stuff: Like > > > information on meetings that don't take place anymore, email address galore for > > > people who are no longer with the organization, procedures that don't occur now > > and > > > have been supplanted by something else. SCN services, many of which are not > > > occuring. Training, anyone? > > > > > > Gross generalizations, but that is what I see from my vantage point. > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > So could you please elaborate (by example, or whatever) what you mean by > > > > outdated content? For example, I have pages in the Crisis Resource Directory > > > > that haven't been touched in a year. That's because I haven't had any new > > > > information in these categories. Does that make them irredeemably old? I sure > > > > don't think so. On the other hand, a page announcing an event can become > > > > completely outdated mere weeks after it is originally posted, because tse > > evenv > > > > is now past. > > > > > > > > So what do you have in mind? And what exactly do you propose to do with the > > > > "outdated" pages? > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thanks Joe for responding. > > > > > > > > > > You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older and/or > > > > > previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of some > > > > > importance to figure some way of determining what material is no longer > > > > > current. > > > > > > > > > > In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices changes > > > > > the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet this > > > > > method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and modifications. > > > > > > > > > > Interesting points, Joe. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM > > > > > To: Jim Loring > > > > > Cc: scn at scn.org > > > > > Subject: Re: SCN: Hello? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you > > > > > intend > > > > > to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that certain > > > > > content > > > > > is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change its > > > > > URLs: > > > > > If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist. > > > > > > > > > > That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such > > > > > demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would certainly want > > > > > to > > > > > know your criteria before I endorsed this. > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All - > > > > > > > > > > > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about the > > > > > > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material such > > > > > as > > > > > > web pages? > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make it > > > > > > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find information. > > > > > It > > > > > > would also be easier to edit the various sections. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, and > > > > > > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will. > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep SCN > > > > > > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date reference. > > > > > > > > > > > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on > > > > > Wednesday. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim Loring > > > > > > webeditors at scn.org > > > > > > > > > > > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > Webmaster > > > Seattle Community Network > > > http://www.scn.org > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > > > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From design at eskimo.com Tue Mar 26 23:25:29 2002 From: design at eskimo.com (Jim Loring) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:25:29 -0800 Subject: SCN: Hello? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree with Joe, that we should try to update the content, and try to keep it current as possible. I'm interested in this concern about having things deleted, which has been on my mind as well. I had a chance to look over the Peace Heathen's Crisis Resource Directory, and while I'm not an expert on the topic, the content looks fine. I agree that changing the URL should only be done after careful consideration. In my opinion, the crisis directory looks fine. Yet I'm at a bit of a loss about updating the information on a page (meetings and such), the format of the page (the new pages we've been working on), and changing the page's location - its URL (moving or removing it). Help me out a bit in understanding this. Thanks - Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org]On Behalf Of Joe Mabel Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 10:54 PM To: patrick fisher Cc: Jim Loring; scn at scn.org Subject: RE: SCN: Hello? Where it is our own SCN content - meetings that don't take place, etc - we should update the content! However, I strongly believe that even a page devoted to a meeting that no longer takes place should be modified to say "this page used to describe a meeting ..." etc. rather than be deleted, or you break someone else's link. Not sure what page you mean by "The Volunteer Community Page". Can you give a URL? -------------------- Joe Mabel On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > I can think of one example: The Volunteer Community Page had a lot of out of date > stuff: Event information that was 2 years after the fact. > > Maybe by outdated, Jim means anachronistic? There is a lot of old stuff: Like > information on meetings that don't take place anymore, email address galore for > people who are no longer with the organization, procedures that don't occur now and > have been supplanted by something else. SCN services, many of which are not > occuring. Training, anyone? > > Gross generalizations, but that is what I see from my vantage point. > > Patrick > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > So could you please elaborate (by example, or whatever) what you mean by > > outdated content? For example, I have pages in the Crisis Resource Directory > > that haven't been touched in a year. That's because I haven't had any new > > information in these categories. Does that make them irredeemably old? I sure > > don't think so. On the other hand, a page announcing an event can become > > completely outdated mere weeks after it is originally posted, because tse evenv > > is now past. > > > > So what do you have in mind? And what exactly do you propose to do with the > > "outdated" pages? > > > > -------------------- > > Joe Mabel > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > Thanks Joe for responding. > > > > > > You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older and/or > > > previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of some > > > importance to figure some way of determining what material is no longer > > > current. > > > > > > In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices changes > > > the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet this > > > method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and modifications. > > > > > > Interesting points, Joe. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org] > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM > > > To: Jim Loring > > > Cc: scn at scn.org > > > Subject: Re: SCN: Hello? > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you > > > intend > > > to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that certain > > > content > > > is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change its > > > URLs: > > > If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist. > > > > > > That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such > > > demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would certainly want > > > to > > > know your criteria before I endorsed this. > > > > > > -------------------- > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > Hello All - > > > > > > > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about the > > > > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material such > > > as > > > > web pages? > > > > > > > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make it > > > > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find information. > > > It > > > > would also be easier to edit the various sections. > > > > > > > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, and > > > > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will. > > > > > > > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep SCN > > > > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date reference. > > > > > > > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on > > > Wednesday. > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > Jim Loring > > > > webeditors at scn.org > > > > > > > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From aristotle at randbad.com Wed Mar 27 03:53:02 2002 From: aristotle at randbad.com (aristotle at randbad.com) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 03:53:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: ADV - Aristotle Update A9 Message-ID: <1017276986.0739158883@postoffice.randbad.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Mar 27 08:07:28 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:07:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Hello? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020327160728.22698.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Joe, Please don't worry. I don't expect things to be all that different. And it will only be once. Patrick --- Joe Mabel wrote: > Again, I will assert that the solution to this is not to delete pages and break > other people's links. Speaking as someone who maintains an online directory, > that is a way to create more work for someone else than you save for yourself. > It's fine to delete the entire contents of a page and have it just say "the > information you are seeking has been relocated > to..." or "This page described a monthly meeting that no longer takes > place. For information about see ." It's also fine (commendable > even) to drop our own links to now-useless pages, which reduces the clutter from > the point of view of users, although admittedly not from that of administrators. > And it is simply commendable to get our content up to date. However, anyone who > has tried to link into the City of Seattle's site can tell you that it is a > royal pain in the ass to try to link into a site where they keep restructuring. > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > Joe, > > > > The clutter needs to be reduced. There can be a place for discontinued pages, > > information, which is what I think Jim is referring to. If it means breaking > > someone's link, then that is the way it has to be. > > > > My reasoning is this: We need to have as much valuable information as possible > on > > SCN, which it has a great deal of. At the same time we need to balance that with > > usability. > > > > The Volunteer Community page is under SCN Communities. The old HTML file is > still > > there. However, I cleaned up the section. > > > > Okay, back to beating a dead horse (for the last time): I have gone in circles > and > > circles looking for information on SCN, not only because of the multitude of > links, > > and not only because of the volume of data, but also because there is a lot of > > information that is not pertinent. > > > > When you have a lot of information that is not pertinent, it makes the very > valuable > > information worthless if people can't find it. > > > > SCN is great. It deserves to be greater. > > > > Thanks, > > Patrick > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > Where it is our own SCN content - meetings that don't take place, etc - we > > > should update the content! However, I strongly believe that even a page > devoted > > > to a meeting that no longer takes place should be modified to say "this page > > > used to describe a meeting ..." etc. rather than be deleted, or you break > > > someone else's link. > > > > > > Not sure what page you mean by "The Volunteer Community Page". Can you give a > > > URL? > > > > > > -------------------- > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > I can think of one example: The Volunteer Community Page had a lot of out of > > > date > > > > stuff: Event information that was 2 years after the fact. > > > > > > > > Maybe by outdated, Jim means anachronistic? There is a lot of old stuff: > Like > > > > information on meetings that don't take place anymore, email address galore > for > > > > people who are no longer with the organization, procedures that don't occur > now > > > and > > > > have been supplanted by something else. SCN services, many of which are not > > > > occuring. Training, anyone? > > > > > > > > Gross generalizations, but that is what I see from my vantage point. > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > > So could you please elaborate (by example, or whatever) what you mean by > > > > > outdated content? For example, I have pages in the Crisis Resource > Directory > > > > > that haven't been touched in a year. That's because I haven't had any new > > > > > > information in these categories. Does that make them irredeemably old? I > sure > > > > > don't think so. On the other hand, a page announcing an event can become > > > > > completely outdated mere weeks after it is originally posted, because tse > > > evenv > > > > > is now past. > > > > > > > > > > So what do you have in mind? And what exactly do you propose to do with > the > > > > > "outdated" pages? > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Joe for responding. > > > > > > > > > > > > You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older > and/or > > > > > > previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of some > > > > > > importance to figure some way of determining what material is no longer > > > > > > current. > > > > > > > > > > > > In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices > changes > > > > > > the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet this > > > > > > method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and modifications. > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting points, Joe. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org] > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM > > > > > > To: Jim Loring > > > > > > Cc: scn at scn.org > > > > > > Subject: Re: SCN: Hello? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you > > > > > > intend > > > > > > to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that certain > > > > > > content > > > > > > is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change > its > > > > > > URLs: > > > > > > If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such > > > > > > demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would certainly > want > > > > > > to > > > > > > know your criteria before I endorsed this. > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about > the > > > > > > > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material > such > > > > > > as > > > > > > > web pages? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make > it > > > > > > > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find > information. > > > > > > It > > > > > > > would also be easier to edit the various sections. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, > and > > > > > > > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep > SCN > > > > > > > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date > reference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on > > > > > > Wednesday. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim Loring > > > > > > > webeditors at scn.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * > * > > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > Webmaster > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > > > > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > > > ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From michaelh at scn.org Wed Mar 27 10:50:22 2002 From: michaelh at scn.org (Michael Hanson) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:50:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Archving/Updating SCN (was RE: SCN: Hello? ) In-Reply-To: <20020327070505.65524.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think we need to be clear what we mean when we say archiving. I interpreted the initial suggestion about archiving to mean making copies of the current state of SCN, or selected parts of it, and putting these aside for posterity. (Similar to what the internet wayback machine (http://www.archive.org) provides , but on a local level - where we can control what gets saved, and for how long.) Note that this doesn't entail moving, removing or demoting current content - you just copy it, stash it away in another directory or on a backup and carry on. Seems fine if somebody wants to do it - it can be interesting and instructive to look back at old versions. (e.g. I thought the home page say of 1998 was much nicer than the one we have today - worked with text browsers, clear statement of what it is about - "A free network run by volunteers, and open to all" (the current "Powering our communities with technology" - could be corporate speak from any computer or telecommunications company.) But I digress.) Anyway, archiving - the saving of copies of old material doesn't need to entail any sort of housecleaning. (Right before do the housecleaning might be a good time to take an archival snapshot - the before picture. Then do one after housecleaning too - get it before the dust can settle.) As far as housecleaning - that depends upon what want to do. When talk of "simplifying the directories" need to be clear what talking about. If you mean the unix directories/file names where the web pages are stored - this is probably not a good idea. Sure things are a bit tangled (multiple links to same directory, etc.) But any rearrangement means either breaking a lot of web pages, both here and elsewhere (in peoples bookmarks files, ...) or keeping the current directory structure and adding yet another set of cross-links. (i.e. creating a bigger cobweb). And ultimately whatever rearrangement is done will gradually accumulate extra fluff until it is not tidy either. ("Come the revolution, things will be different, not better, just different.") If you mean updating the content of the web pages that SCN maintains to help users find pages on the site. Evolution is probably better than revolution there. It may be well to ask editors to review the pages, but wholesale redesigns are usually more of a curse than a blessing for the user. (Those who know how to find things already will be lost and the chances of the new scheme actually being easier for the user are modest at best.) If you want to redesign these directories, watch some users who know their way around SCN - what do they find hard, and watch some users who don't know their way around (where do they look for things). Start by tweaking the directories given this sort of input - try to evolve it into a smoother system. If, after trying this, the users still think it is hopeless, then use the input to generate an overhaul. Too many web sites are afflicted by maintainers with too much time on their hands or a position to justify. (e.g. Look at places like MS (can you guess where to find Internet Explorer), Netscape (try to find older copies of Navigator) or DejaNews - they keep reorganizing things, but just get busier pages and never (well, hardly ever) manage to make it easy to do what one wants.) So, IMHO: archive (i.e. preserve copy of the state of SCN) - fine. Updating out of date information - great. Rearranging URLS - better not. Tidying up the SCN web pages - better done by evolution than revolution. Base updates on input from users (i.e. for the most part people who are not active in the webmasters group, etc.) Michael On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > Joe, > > The clutter needs to be reduced. There can be a place for discontinued pages, > information, which is what I think Jim is referring to. If it means breaking > someone's link, then that is the way it has to be. > > My reasoning is this: We need to have as much valuable information as possible on > SCN, which it has a great deal of. At the same time we need to balance that with > usability. > > The Volunteer Community page is under SCN Communities. The old HTML file is still > there. However, I cleaned up the section. > > Okay, back to beating a dead horse (for the last time): I have gone in circles and > circles looking for information on SCN, not only because of the multitude of links, > and not only because of the volume of data, but also because there is a lot of > information that is not pertinent. > > When you have a lot of information that is not pertinent, it makes the very valuable > information worthless if people can't find it. > > SCN is great. It deserves to be greater. > > Thanks, > Patrick > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > Where it is our own SCN content - meetings that don't take place, etc - we > > should update the content! However, I strongly believe that even a page devoted > > to a meeting that no longer takes place should be modified to say "this page > > used to describe a meeting ..." etc. rather than be deleted, or you break > > someone else's link. > > > > Not sure what page you mean by "The Volunteer Community Page". Can you give a > > URL? > > > > -------------------- > > Joe Mabel > > > ... > > > > -------------------- > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thanks Joe for responding. > > > > > > > > > > You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older and/or > > > > > previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of some > > > > > importance to figure some way of determining what material is no longer > > > > > current. > > > > > > > > > > In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices changes > > > > > the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet this > > > > > method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and modifications. > > > > > > > > > > Interesting points, Joe. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM > > > > > To: Jim Loring > > > > > Cc: scn at scn.org > > > > > Subject: Re: SCN: Hello? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you > > > > > intend > > > > > to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that certain > > > > > content > > > > > is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change its > > > > > URLs: > > > > > If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist. > > > > > > > > > > That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such > > > > > demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would certainly want > > > > > to > > > > > know your criteria before I endorsed this. > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All - > > > > > > > > > > > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about the > > > > > > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material such > > > > > as > > > > > > web pages? > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make it > > > > > > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find information. > > > > > It > > > > > > would also be easier to edit the various sections. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, and > > > > > > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will. > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep SCN > > > > > > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date reference. > > > > > > > > > > > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on > > > > > Wednesday. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim Loring > > > > > > webeditors at scn.org > > > > > > > > > > > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > Webmaster > > > Seattle Community Network > > > http://www.scn.org > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > > > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From bn890 at scn.org Wed Mar 27 11:05:23 2002 From: bn890 at scn.org (Irene Mogol) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:05:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Holiday Message-ID: A very happy Passover to all my friends who celebrate, and to all those who don't have a happy whatever. Irene * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Mar 27 11:24:53 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:24:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Holiday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020327192453.81513.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> Irene, Thank you. That was very sweet. I always look forward to it as a nice time for the family to spend together. Patrick --- Irene Mogol wrote: > > A very happy Passover to all my friends who celebrate, and to all those > who don't have a happy whatever. > > Irene > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Mar 27 11:40:07 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:40:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fear not Re: Archving/Updating SCN (was RE: SCN: Hello? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020327194007.57624.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Please everyone, This discussion is getting a bit out of control. I do appreciate everyone's input. It is very valuable. However, before you let your imaginations take hold and interpret "what could happen" as reality: Please come to the general meeting ask ask the topic editors and myself about what is going on. Or email webeditors at scn.org and ask. I think there is too much needless worrying. I was going to stop posting on this topic as no one has specifically asked the topic editors and myself what is going on. People are assuming far more than what is going on in reality. I don't want to sound condescending. I'm human and I do the same things: You might read a newspaper article or hear something on the radio, partial information, then you go talk to someone else and the conversation becomes "reality" and it takes a life of its own! It's only natural. If I were not discussing the future with the topic editors and only reading some of the ideas circulating, I'd be freaking out. Rest assured, SCN has a very capable, talented, intelligent, and thoughtful group of topic editors. SCN is very lucky. And I feel very lucky to be working with them. With that said, I won't go any further into this topic. I would have to write volumes on even a simple subject in order to cover every angle, perspective, and provide an airtight message about what the topic editors and I have discussed for many hours at many meetings. Nothing is being taken lightly with SCN. It will be okay. Most importantly: NOTHING is being deleted. NOTHING is being thrown away. We are archiving everything. Whether that will all be available for viewing is another matter, but it will all be there. Thanks! Patrick --- --- Michael Hanson wrote: > > I think we need to be clear what we mean when we say archiving. > > I interpreted the initial suggestion about archiving to mean making copies > of the current state of SCN, or selected parts of it, and putting these > aside for posterity. (Similar to what the internet wayback machine > (http://www.archive.org) provides , but on a local level - where we can > control what gets saved, and for how long.) Note that this doesn't entail > moving, removing or demoting current content - you just copy it, stash it > away in another directory or on a backup and carry on. Seems fine if > somebody wants to do it - it can be interesting and instructive to look > back at old versions. (e.g. I thought the home page say of 1998 was much > nicer than the one we have today - worked with text browsers, clear > statement of what it is about - "A free network run by volunteers, and > open to all" (the current "Powering our communities with technology" - > could be corporate speak from any computer or telecommunications company.) > But I digress.) > Anyway, archiving - the saving of copies of old material doesn't need > to entail any sort of housecleaning. (Right before do the > housecleaning might be a good time to take an archival snapshot - the > before picture. Then do one after housecleaning too - get it before > the dust can settle.) > > As far as housecleaning - that depends upon what want to do. When talk > of "simplifying the directories" need to be clear what talking about. If > you mean the unix directories/file names where the web pages are stored - > this is probably not a good idea. Sure things are a bit tangled (multiple > links to same directory, etc.) But any rearrangement means either breaking > a lot of web pages, both here and elsewhere (in peoples bookmarks files, > ...) or keeping the current directory structure and adding yet another > set of cross-links. (i.e. creating a bigger cobweb). And ultimately > whatever rearrangement is done will gradually accumulate extra fluff until > it is not tidy either. ("Come the revolution, things will be different, > not better, just different.") > If you mean updating the content of the web pages that SCN maintains to > help users find pages on the site. Evolution is probably better than > revolution there. It may be well to ask editors to review the pages, but > wholesale redesigns are usually more of a curse than a blessing for the > user. (Those who know how to find things already will be lost and the > chances of the new scheme actually being easier for the user are modest at > best.) If you want to redesign these directories, watch some users who > know their way around SCN - what do they find hard, and watch some users > who don't know their way around (where do they look for things). Start by > tweaking the directories given this sort of input - try to evolve it into > a smoother system. If, after trying this, the users still think it is > hopeless, then use the input to generate an overhaul. > Too many web sites are afflicted by maintainers with too much time on > their hands or a position to justify. (e.g. Look at places like MS (can > you guess where to find Internet Explorer), Netscape (try to find older > copies of Navigator) or DejaNews - they keep reorganizing things, but just > get busier pages and never (well, hardly ever) manage to make it easy to > do what one wants.) > So, IMHO: archive (i.e. preserve copy of the state of SCN) - fine. > Updating out of date information - great. Rearranging URLS - better not. > Tidying up the SCN web pages - better done by evolution than revolution. > Base updates on input from users (i.e. for the most part people who are > not active in the webmasters group, etc.) > > Michael > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > Joe, > > > > The clutter needs to be reduced. There can be a place for discontinued pages, > > information, which is what I think Jim is referring to. If it means breaking > > someone's link, then that is the way it has to be. > > > > My reasoning is this: We need to have as much valuable information as possible > on > > SCN, which it has a great deal of. At the same time we need to balance that with > > usability. > > > > The Volunteer Community page is under SCN Communities. The old HTML file is > still > > there. However, I cleaned up the section. > > > > Okay, back to beating a dead horse (for the last time): I have gone in circles > and > > circles looking for information on SCN, not only because of the multitude of > links, > > and not only because of the volume of data, but also because there is a lot of > > information that is not pertinent. > > > > When you have a lot of information that is not pertinent, it makes the very > valuable > > information worthless if people can't find it. > > > > SCN is great. It deserves to be greater. > > > > Thanks, > > Patrick > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > Where it is our own SCN content - meetings that don't take place, etc - we > > > should update the content! However, I strongly believe that even a page > devoted > > > to a meeting that no longer takes place should be modified to say "this page > > > used to describe a meeting ..." etc. rather than be deleted, or you break > > > someone else's link. > > > > > > Not sure what page you mean by "The Volunteer Community Page". Can you give a > > > URL? > > > > > > -------------------- > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > ... > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Joe for responding. > > > > > > > > > > > > You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older > and/or > > > > > > previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of some > > > > > > importance to figure some way of determining what material is no longer > > > > > > current. > > > > > > > > > > > > In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices > changes > > > > > > the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet this > > > > > > method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and modifications. > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting points, Joe. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org] > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM > > > > > > To: Jim Loring > > > > > > Cc: scn at scn.org > > > > > > Subject: Re: SCN: Hello? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you > > > > > > intend > > > > > > to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that certain > > > > > > content > > > > > > is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change > its > > > > > > URLs: > > > > > > If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such > > > > > > demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would certainly > want > > > > > > to > > > > > > know your criteria before I endorsed this. > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about > the > > > > > > > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material > such > > > > > > as > > > > > > > web pages? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make > it > > > > > > > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find > information. > > > > > > It > > > > > > > would also be easier to edit the various sections. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, > and > > > > > > > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep > SCN > > > > > > > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date > reference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on > > > > > > Wednesday. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim Loring > > > > > > > webeditors at scn.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * > * > > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > Webmaster > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > > > > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From chantha_scn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 27 15:41:45 2002 From: chantha_scn at yahoo.com (Chantha) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:41:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: changing file permissions Message-ID: <20020327234145.67319.qmail@web21301.mail.yahoo.com> How do you change file permissions? Or is it not possible? I uploaded a file to my public_html and would like to chmod 755 on it, but can't. Thanks! ===== Chantha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Wed Mar 27 22:27:21 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:27:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fear not Re: Archving/Updating SCN (was RE: SCN: Hello? ) In-Reply-To: <20020327194007.57624.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I agreee with everything Michael said. I HAVE asked specific questions. I asked for examples of outdated content and was given one example that appears to be perfectly up to date. I asked for the criteria that wil[Bw be used to determine whether particulcr pages are out of date and got no response. "Come to the meeting" is no answer. I'm in Romania, halfway around the world. I believe you already knew that, but if you didn't you do now. I am an active participant in SCN who has raised what I think are reasonable concerns and I'm frankly feeling a little brushed off. A "virtual community" should not mean that if you can't make the meeting you are virtually disenfranchised. So again, I will reiterate: update any outdated pages or, if more appropriate, mark them as no longer current? Sure. Drop the entire content of certain pages in favor of a link to a well-maintained place to get comparable information? Absolutely. Rework top-level menus, eliminate or demote the chaff and emphasize ehe wheat? Certainly. But moving around the actual arrangement of pages on disk in a way that changes their URLs is almost always a bad idea. -------------------- Joe Mabel On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > Please everyone, > > This discussion is getting a bit out of control. > > I do appreciate everyone's input. It is very valuable. > > However, before you let your imaginations take hold and interpret "what could > happen" as reality: > > Please come to the general meeting ask ask the topic editors and myself about what > is going on. Or email webeditors at scn.org and ask. > > I think there is too much needless worrying. I was going to stop posting on this > topic as no one has specifically asked the topic editors and myself what is going > on. People are assuming far more than what is going on in reality. > > I don't want to sound condescending. I'm human and I do the same things: You might > read a newspaper article or hear something on the radio, partial information, then > you go talk to someone else and the conversation becomes "reality" and it takes a > life of its own! It's only natural. > > If I were not discussing the future with the topic editors and only reading some of > the ideas circulating, I'd be freaking out. > > Rest assured, SCN has a very capable, talented, intelligent, and thoughtful group of > topic editors. SCN is very lucky. And I feel very lucky to be working with them. > > With that said, I won't go any further into this topic. I would have to write > volumes on even a simple subject in order to cover every angle, perspective, and > provide an airtight message about what the topic editors and I have discussed for > many hours at many meetings. > > Nothing is being taken lightly with SCN. It will be okay. > > Most importantly: NOTHING is being deleted. NOTHING is being thrown away. We are > archiving everything. Whether that will all be available for viewing is another > matter, but it will all be there. > > Thanks! > Patrick > > --- > > > > > > --- Michael Hanson wrote: > > > > I think we need to be clear what we mean when we say archiving. > > > > I interpreted the initial suggestion about archiving to mean making copies > > of the current state of SCN, or selected parts of it, and putting these > > aside for posterity. (Similar to what the internet wayback machine > > (http://www.archive.org) provides , but on a local level - where we can > > control what gets saved, and for how long.) Note that this doesn't entail > > moving, removing or demoting current content - you just copy it, stash it > > away in another directory or on a backup and carry on. Seems fine if > > somebody wants to do it - it can be interesting and instructive to look > > back at old versions. (e.g. I thought the home page say of 1998 was much > > nicer than the one we have today - worked with text browsers, clear > > statement of what it is about - "A free network run by volunteers, and > > open to all" (the current "Powering our communities with technology" - > > could be corporate speak from any computer or telecommunications company.) > > But I digress.) > > Anyway, archiving - the saving of copies of old material doesn't need > > to entail any sort of housecleaning. (Right before do the > > housecleaning might be a good time to take an archival snapshot - the > > before picture. Then do one after housecleaning too - get it before > > the dust can settle.) > > > > As far as housecleaning - that depends upon what want to do. When talk > > of "simplifying the directories" need to be clear what talking about. If > > you mean the unix directories/file names where the web pages are stored - > > this is probably not a good idea. Sure things are a bit tangled (multiple > > links to same directory, etc.) But any rearrangement means either breaking > > a lot of web pages, both here and elsewhere (in peoples bookmarks files, > > ...) or keeping the current directory structure and adding yet another > > set of cross-links. (i.e. creating a bigger cobweb). And ultimately > > whatever rearrangement is done will gradually accumulate extra fluff until > > it is not tidy either. ("Come the revolution, things will be different, > > not better, just different.") > > If you mean updating the content of the web pages that SCN maintains to > > help users find pages on the site. Evolution is probably better than > > revolution there. It may be well to ask editors to review the pages, but > > wholesale redesigns are usually more of a curse than a blessing for the > > user. (Those who know how to find things already will be lost and the > > chances of the new scheme actually being easier for the user are modest at > > best.) If you want to redesign these directories, watch some users who > > know their way around SCN - what do they find hard, and watch some users > > who don't know their way around (where do they look for things). Start by > > tweaking the directories given this sort of input - try to evolve it into > > a smoother system. If, after trying this, the users still think it is > > hopeless, then use the input to generate an overhaul. > > Too many web sites are afflicted by maintainers with too much time on > > their hands or a position to justify. (e.g. Look at places like MS (can > > you guess where to find Internet Explorer), Netscape (try to find older > > copies of Navigator) or DejaNews - they keep reorganizing things, but just > > get busier pages and never (well, hardly ever) manage to make it easy to > > do what one wants.) > > So, IMHO: archive (i.e. preserve copy of the state of SCN) - fine. > > Updating out of date information - great. Rearranging URLS - better not. > > Tidying up the SCN web pages - better done by evolution than revolution. > > Base updates on input from users (i.e. for the most part people who are > > not active in the webmasters group, etc.) > > > > Michael > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > The clutter needs to be reduced. There can be a place for discontinued pages, > > > information, which is what I think Jim is referring to. If it means breaking > > > someone's link, then that is the way it has to be. > > > > > > My reasoning is this: We need to have as much valuable information as possible > > on > > > SCN, which it has a great deal of. At the same time we need to balance that with > > > usability. > > > > > > The Volunteer Community page is under SCN Communities. The old HTML file is > > still > > > there. However, I cleaned up the section. > > > > > > Okay, back to beating a dead horse (for the last time): I have gone in circles > > and > > > circles looking for information on SCN, not only because of the multitude of > > links, > > > and not only because of the volume of data, but also because there is a lot of > > > information that is not pertinent. > > > > > > When you have a lot of information that is not pertinent, it makes the very > > valuable > > > information worthless if people can't find it. > > > > > > SCN is great. It deserves to be greater. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Patrick > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > Where it is our own SCN content - meetings that don't take place, etc - we > > > > should update the content! However, I strongly believe that even a page > > devoted > > > > to a meeting that no longer takes place should be modified to say "this page > > > > used to describe a meeting ..." etc. rather than be deleted, or you break > > > > someone else's link. > > > > > > > > Not sure what page you mean by "The Volunteer Community Page". Can you give a > > > > URL? > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Joe for responding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older > > and/or > > > > > > > previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of some > > > > > > > importance to figure some way of determining what material is no longer > > > > > > > current. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices > > changes > > > > > > > the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet this > > > > > > > method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and modifications. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting points, Joe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org] > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM > > > > > > > To: Jim Loring > > > > > > > Cc: scn at scn.org > > > > > > > Subject: Re: SCN: Hello? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you > > > > > > > intend > > > > > > > to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that certain > > > > > > > content > > > > > > > is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change > > its > > > > > > > URLs: > > > > > > > If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such > > > > > > > demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would certainly > > want > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > know your criteria before I endorsed this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about > > the > > > > > > > > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material > > such > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > web pages? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make > > it > > > > > > > > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find > > information. > > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > would also be easier to edit the various sections. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, > > and > > > > > > > > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep > > SCN > > > > > > > > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date > > reference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on > > > > > > > Wednesday. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim Loring > > > > > > > > webeditors at scn.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * > > * > > > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > > ==== > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > Webmaster > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > > > > > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > Webmaster > > > Seattle Community Network > > > http://www.scn.org > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > > > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Mar 27 22:34:42 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:34:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN General Meeting Message-ID: <20020328063442.58945.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> A lot of people missed a good meeting. Turn-out was great and it's getting better with each successive meeting. And I'd like to thank everyone who came. Before the meeting, I talked with a new-to-be volunteer, Jim, who will be a topic editor for Social Services. During the meeting we discussed the Discus software which is still being tested and will eventually be implemented on SCN. I gave a little spiel on the site redesign and update. There was a lot of good Q and A about the site redesign and implementation, along with good information on issues that may come up. There were also handouts that aided in visually pointing out what is and what is to be. And the reasoning behind such decisions the topic editors and I came to. Next is for me to learn to stop ending sentences with prepositions. Thanks! Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Mar 27 22:40:52 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:40:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fear not Re: Archving/Updating SCN (was RE: SCN: Hello? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020328064052.73923.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> Joe, Yes, I know you are in Romania, and I am sorry you could not make it. And the virtual environment is important, so don't think you opinions do not count. I think the word everyone is worried about is change. And the change will not be that great. We want to minimize moving things around. On the other hand, clutter is not a choice, either. Don't worry: Things will not change a great deal. Things will, fundamentally, and for the most part, stay the same. An example I gave tonight was on the main help page: There are links there to SCN policy and using Unix. Those items in particular are important to SCN and using it effectively. However, it should not all be on the same page. Patrick --- Joe Mabel wrote: > I agreee with everything Michael said. I HAVE asked specific questions. I asked > for examples of outdated content and was given one example that appears to be > perfectly up to date. I asked for the criteria that wil[Bw be used to determine > whether particulcr pages are out of date and got no response. > > "Come to the meeting" is no answer. I'm in Romania, halfway around the world. I > believe you already knew that, but if you didn't you do now. > > I am an active participant in SCN who has raised what I think are reasonable > concerns and I'm frankly feeling a little brushed off. > > A "virtual community" should not mean that if you can't make the meeting you are > virtually disenfranchised. > > So again, I will reiterate: update any outdated pages or, if more appropriate, > mark them as no longer current? Sure. Drop the entire content of certain pages > in favor of a link to a well-maintained place to get comparable information? > Absolutely. Rework top-level menus, eliminate or demote the chaff and emphasize > ehe wheat? Certainly. But moving around the actual arrangement of pages on disk > in a way that changes their URLs is almost always a bad idea. > > -------------------- > Joe Mabel > > On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > Please everyone, > > > > This discussion is getting a bit out of control. > > > > I do appreciate everyone's input. It is very valuable. > > > > However, before you let your imaginations take hold and interpret "what could > > happen" as reality: > > > > Please come to the general meeting ask ask the topic editors and myself about > what > > is going on. Or email webeditors at scn.org and ask. > > > > I think there is too much needless worrying. I was going to stop posting on this > > topic as no one has specifically asked the topic editors and myself what is > going > > on. People are assuming far more than what is going on in reality. > > > > I don't want to sound condescending. I'm human and I do the same things: You > might > > read a newspaper article or hear something on the radio, partial information, > then > > you go talk to someone else and the conversation becomes "reality" and it takes > a > > life of its own! It's only natural. > > > > If I were not discussing the future with the topic editors and only reading some > of > > the ideas circulating, I'd be freaking out. > > > > Rest assured, SCN has a very capable, talented, intelligent, and thoughtful > group of > > topic editors. SCN is very lucky. And I feel very lucky to be working with them. > > > > With that said, I won't go any further into this topic. I would have to write > > volumes on even a simple subject in order to cover every angle, perspective, and > > provide an airtight message about what the topic editors and I have discussed > for > > many hours at many meetings. > > > > Nothing is being taken lightly with SCN. It will be okay. > > > > Most importantly: NOTHING is being deleted. NOTHING is being thrown away. We are > > archiving everything. Whether that will all be available for viewing is another > > matter, but it will all be there. > > > > Thanks! > > Patrick > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Michael Hanson wrote: > > > > > > I think we need to be clear what we mean when we say archiving. > > > > > > I interpreted the initial suggestion about archiving to mean making copies > > > of the current state of SCN, or selected parts of it, and putting these > > > aside for posterity. (Similar to what the internet wayback machine > > > (http://www.archive.org) provides , but on a local level - where we can > > > control what gets saved, and for how long.) Note that this doesn't entail > > > moving, removing or demoting current content - you just copy it, stash it > > > away in another directory or on a backup and carry on. Seems fine if > > > somebody wants to do it - it can be interesting and instructive to look > > > back at old versions. (e.g. I thought the home page say of 1998 was much > > > nicer than the one we have today - worked with text browsers, clear > > > statement of what it is about - "A free network run by volunteers, and > > > open to all" (the current "Powering our communities with technology" - > > > could be corporate speak from any computer or telecommunications company.) > > > But I digress.) > > > Anyway, archiving - the saving of copies of old material doesn't need > > > to entail any sort of housecleaning. (Right before do the > > > housecleaning might be a good time to take an archival snapshot - the > > > before picture. Then do one after housecleaning too - get it before > > > the dust can settle.) > > > > > > As far as housecleaning - that depends upon what want to do. When talk > > > of "simplifying the directories" need to be clear what talking about. If > > > you mean the unix directories/file names where the web pages are stored - > > > this is probably not a good idea. Sure things are a bit tangled (multiple > > > links to same directory, etc.) But any rearrangement means either breaking > > > a lot of web pages, both here and elsewhere (in peoples bookmarks files, > > > ...) or keeping the current directory structure and adding yet another > > > set of cross-links. (i.e. creating a bigger cobweb). And ultimately > > > whatever rearrangement is done will gradually accumulate extra fluff until > > > it is not tidy either. ("Come the revolution, things will be different, > > > not better, just different.") > > > If you mean updating the content of the web pages that SCN maintains to > > > help users find pages on the site. Evolution is probably better than > > > revolution there. It may be well to ask editors to review the pages, but > > > wholesale redesigns are usually more of a curse than a blessing for the > > > user. (Those who know how to find things already will be lost and the > > > chances of the new scheme actually being easier for the user are modest at > > > best.) If you want to redesign these directories, watch some users who > > > know their way around SCN - what do they find hard, and watch some users > > > who don't know their way around (where do they look for things). Start by > > > tweaking the directories given this sort of input - try to evolve it into > > > a smoother system. If, after trying this, the users still think it is > > > hopeless, then use the input to generate an overhaul. > > > Too many web sites are afflicted by maintainers with too much time on > > > their hands or a position to justify. (e.g. Look at places like MS (can > > > you guess where to find Internet Explorer), Netscape (try to find older > > > copies of Navigator) or DejaNews - they keep reorganizing things, but just > > > get busier pages and never (well, hardly ever) manage to make it easy to > > > do what one wants.) > > > So, IMHO: archive (i.e. preserve copy of the state of SCN) - fine. > > > Updating out of date information - great. Rearranging URLS - better not. > > > Tidying up the SCN web pages - better done by evolution than revolution. > > > Base updates on input from users (i.e. for the most part people who are > > > not active in the webmasters group, etc.) > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > The clutter needs to be reduced. There can be a place for discontinued > pages, > > > > information, which is what I think Jim is referring to. If it means breaking > > > > someone's link, then that is the way it has to be. > > > > > > > > My reasoning is this: We need to have as much valuable information as > possible > > > on > > > > SCN, which it has a great deal of. At the same time we need to balance that > with > > > > usability. > > > > > > > > The Volunteer Community page is under SCN Communities. The old HTML file is > > > still > > > > there. However, I cleaned up the section. > > > > > > > > Okay, back to beating a dead horse (for the last time): I have gone in > circles > > > and > > > > circles looking for information on SCN, not only because of the multitude of > > > links, > > > > and not only because of the volume of data, but also because there is a lot > of > > > > information that is not pertinent. > > > > > > > > When you have a lot of information that is not pertinent, it makes the very > > > valuable > > > > information worthless if people can't find it. > > > > > > > > SCN is great. It deserves to be greater. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > --- Joe Mabel wrote: > > > > > Where it is our own SCN content - meetings that don't take place, etc - we > > > > > > should update the content! However, I strongly believe that even a page > > > devoted > > > > > to a meeting that no longer takes place should be modified to say "this > page > > > > > used to describe a meeting ..." etc. rather than be deleted, or you break > > > > > someone else's link. > > > > > > > > > > Not sure what page you mean by "The Volunteer Community Page". Can you > give a > > > > > URL? > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Joe for responding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older > > > and/or > > > > > > > > previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of > some > > > > > > > > importance to figure some way of determining what material is no > longer > > > > > > > > current. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices > > > changes > > > > > > > > the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet > this > > > > > > > > method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and > modifications. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting points, Joe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org] > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM > > > > > > > > To: Jim Loring > > > > > > > > Cc: scn at scn.org > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: SCN: Hello? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what > you > > > > > > > > intend > > > > > > > > to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that > certain > > > > > > > > content > > > > > > > > is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to > change > > > its > > > > > > > > URLs: > > > > > > > > If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves > such > > > > > > > > demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would > certainly > > > want > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > know your criteria before I endorsed this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- > > > > > > > > Joe Mabel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt > about > > > the > > > > > > > > > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN > material > > > such > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > web pages? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might > make > > > it > > > > > > > > > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find > > > information. > > > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > would also be easier to edit the various sections. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web > pages, > > > and > > > > > > > > > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you > will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to > keep > > > SCN > > > > > > > > > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date > > > reference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on > > > > > > > > Wednesday. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim Loring > > > > > > > > > webeditors at scn.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with > Technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * > * * > > > * > > > > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web > at: > > > ==== > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * > * * > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * > * * > > > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * > * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * > * > > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: > ==== > > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > > Webmaster > > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > > > > > > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > Webmaster > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > > > > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Wed Mar 27 22:48:35 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:48:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN Hosted sites Message-ID: <20020328064835.59946.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> I want to make it clear that SCN hosted sites will remain where they are and will not be touched. There is no reason to do that. If a hosted site is in a particular directory, it will stay there until kingdom come or until the IP wants it changed. Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Thu Mar 28 00:18:32 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:18:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Windows FTP programs In-Reply-To: <20020326180857.8832.qmail@web13204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The particular problem that was referred to me has nothing to do with the ftp client being Windows based, and is not really an 'ftp' problem at all. (And ftp problems have NOTHING to do with the new _web_ server going up--there is no connection at all, unless it be that all the resources going into web services starves ftp of support.) In general we do not allow users to ftp from the outside; that is one cause of the ftp '530' error. Exceptions are made--I believe for IPs--but I do not know if there is any definite policy or procedure. If anyone can advise me of any such policy or procedure I'd be pleased to hear it. === JJ ============================================================= On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > I posed this problem to JJ, but since he doesn't use Windows... > > People have been having trouble FTping to SCN since the new server went up. They get > 530 errors. Fetch on my Mac works fine, all my other FTP programs are locked out. > > We have a new volunteer who uses Windows and is getting the same 530 error. > > Is there a Windows program that is successfully allowing people to FTP into SCN? > > (And apologies to JJ because I did not first wait for him to respond. However, maybe > someone out there who uses Windows in the SCN community has had success with FTP.) > > Thanks, > Patrick > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� > http://movies.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Thu Mar 28 00:56:49 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:56:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Hello? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So how is "outdated content" identified? I still like the idea of a expiration dates. If they were implemented the right way a 'freshness' program could check them every night, and notify someone of the stale items. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Thu Mar 28 02:05:57 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 02:05:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > A model like the one JJ mentioned would obviously be undesirable... A model like I mentioned (affiliation with a resource-rich university) is not undesireable in itself. And, judging from the few cases at hand, apparently very desireable in that it seems able to work. It just wouldn't be SCN. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From hahaha at sexyfun.net Thu Mar 28 20:29:21 2002 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:29:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <0GTP004BBWGVVV@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sexy virgin.scr Type: application/octet-stream Size: 19968 bytes Desc: not available URL: From douglas at scn.org Thu Mar 28 07:55:37 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 07:55:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: JJ -- I believe it IS possible to have affiliations (we have one with the library, for example) and still address our principles (http://www.scn.org/commnet/principles.html). "Being" SCN doesn't mean staying exactly the way we are now! -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * ****************************************************************** On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, J. Johnson wrote: > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > A model like the one JJ mentioned would obviously be undesirable... > > A model like I mentioned (affiliation with a resource-rich university) > is not undesireable in itself. And, judging from the few cases at hand, > apparently very desireable in that it seems able to work. > > It just wouldn't be SCN. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jj at scn.org Fri Mar 29 00:57:54 2002 From: jj at scn.org (J. Johnson) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 00:57:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Prarienet.org - community network - check it out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > "Being" SCN doesn't mean staying exactly the way we are now! For sure. But would this experiment really be a success if it required changing our purposes, fundamental values, and every key element and characteristic--everything but the name plate--beyond all recognition? It seems to me that we should not be jumping onto some business model because it seems to be successful. Rather, we should inquire into what it takes to make _our_ model successful. Other examples can be illustrative, but each case is different, has different factors, and it can take a bit of careful study to tease out just what the correct lesson is. And as successful organizations often have no idea what makes them successful, it is necessary to also study unsuccessful organizations. === JJ ============================================================= * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas Fri Mar 29 15:54:41 2002 From: douglas (Doug Schuler) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:54:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Volunteer meeting on Monday -- DIAC-02 Message-ID: <200203292354.PAA03354@scn.org> ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * ****************************************************************** DIAC-02 is coming (May 16-19) and we expect 400 - 500 souls from all over the world... We need your help!! The next volunteer meeting is Monday April 1st. 3:30 at Cafe Allegro, 4214 University Way N.E. PS. The Allegro is actually on the alley parallel to the Ave one half block east of the Ave (closer to the UW). Volunteers get free admission! If you can't make the meeting but are interested in volunteering please contact volunteer coordinator Nicole Bade at nicole at thatsnice.org. Thanks! -- Doug * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From steve at advocate.net Sat Mar 30 13:25:30 2002 From: steve at advocate.net (Steve) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 13:25:30 -0800 Subject: SCN: GnuPG Message-ID: <3CA5BCCA.25367.37FE541@localhost> x-no-archive: yes ==================== (Bill Lamb, Salon)---When Network Associates halted development of its widely respected PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) desktop encryption software in late February, Julian Koh worried about his "postcards." Koh considers everything that passes across the Internet -- e-mail, mailing list postings, Web pages -- as no more private than postcards that can be read by anyone along their path. That realization long ago inspired an epiphany for the Northwestern University network engineer: "I was really amazed at the ease with which my network traffic could be intercepted and examined, even with no malicious intent whatsoever." It wasn't a question of Koh having secrets. There are just some things that are no one else's business. So for the past five years, both at work and at home, he has used PGP to routinely encrypt potentially sensitive communication, turning ordinary data into bits and bytes of meaningless gibberish readable only by those with the proper digital key. "Typically, I digitally sign most of my outgoing messages, and several people and organizations with whom I correspond regularly also require encryption of messages," he says. But online security, just like everything else, is subject to the ebb and flow of capitalism -- and the relentless releases of new software products with which one must be compatible. Updated operating systems from Microsoft and Apple require updated versions of PGP, but Network Associates is currently not making the necessary improvements. Koh and tens of thousands of other PGP users have been forced to seek alternatives. Increasingly, they're finding haven in a small corner of the open- source software world, bringing both opportunity and new users to an oddly named and heretofore little-known programming effort fueled by volunteers: GnuPG. The synergies of the relationship are obvious: open-source software and cryptography are two sublimely geeky obsessions that go well together. But the story of how GnuPG is coming to the cryptogeek rescue also illuminates some of the limitations of open- source, or free software. Even a relatively slick consumer product like PGP has been deemed too technically challenging by many normal computer users -- despite widespread anxieties about privacy on the part of the general Internet-using population. And making a software program easy to use is exactly the challenge that open-source software has historically been weakest at meeting. When programmer Phil Zimmermann dubbed his pet encryption software "Pretty Good Privacy" it was a master stroke of subtle understatement. PGP's mathematical heart is so complex that it defies any meaningful lay description. The result of using it, however, is easily grasped: data so jumbled that, according to its developers and some cryptography experts, our sun would burn out before all computers now in existence, working together, would have time to find the correct key for a single message. New advances in computing could ultimately change that, but for the moment, PGP is more than just pretty good. PGP is an implementation of public key cryptography in which the "keys" that lock and unlock the meaning of a message are produced in pairs, public and private. The public key is just that, and is distributed to anyone who might wish to send the user an encrypted message. The private key is kept by the user for decrypting messages, turning them back into readable form. Cryptographer and security specialist Bruce Schneier, in his book "Applied Cryptography," called the public key system "the most striking development in the history of cryptography." Software engineer and privacy activist Zimmermann put the system to practical use in 1991, creating the first crude version of PGP and releasing it as freeware. "PGP empowers people to take their privacy into their own hands," Zimmermann wrote in the original program's user guide. "There has been a growing social need for it. That's why I wrote it." PGP spread worldwide on the Internet, and Zimmermann faced a three-year federal investigation for violating then strict regulations regarding the export of cryptographic software. When the government case was dropped in 1996, Zimmermann formed PGP Inc., and the modern age of consumer desktop encryption was born. PGP Inc. became a part of Network Associates in 1997. Like the system itself, PGP is both public and private. While Network Associates' source code is proprietary and no longer released to the general public, PGP, as a concept, lives in the open through the OpenPGP movement, a set of design specifications intended to make all forms of PGP-like public key systems interoperable. Enter GNU (pronounced "guh-NEW") Privacy Guard, also called GnuPG. GNU (a "recursive acronym" meaning "GNU's Not Unix") was launched in 1984 to develop and maintain a free and open-source "Unix-like" operating system. The GnuPG project is an OpenPGP offshoot managed by the German Unix Users Group and begun in response to U.S. export restrictions. In a move seen as a rebuff of American pressure to tighten its restrictions on cryptographic technologies, the German government awarded the fledgling software effort a $177,000 grant in 1999. "In Germany, we are really free to do anything now," Werner Koch, head of the GnuPG movement, said of the German funding. Now, just two years later, Koch and his GnuPG team have a robust application available for multiple platforms -- and a new pool of potential users with which to grow. "I expected something like this," Koch said of PGP's demise. "They (Network Associates) have moved away from an encryption tool to a 'do everything security solution with the name PGP.' But it might have turned out that the name PGP didn't help that much in marketing." GnuPG's marketing amounts to little more than word-of-mouth and Web sites. But those appear adequate. Discussion of GnuPG slipped onto the scene in PGP-related newsgroups and e-mail lists with surprising stealth. No announcements, no fanfare. It was just there one day, being recommended to an increasing number of inquisitive Windows and Macintosh users as a possible replacement for PGP. Koch, who oversees GnuPG development from Germany, said the number of visitors to the GnuPG site each week has almost doubled since Jan. 6, rising from 11,249 to 20,689. While download numbers are difficult to measure since approximately 30 sites mirror the GnuPG files, Koch said GnuPG's main server is registering approximately 2,000 downloads per week for the application's Windows version and about the same for the Unix version. That's up from approximately 1,700 each earlier this year, he said. Downloads of the relatively new GnuPG version designed for Apple's new operating system, Mac OS X, have also jumped sharply, and new user interface tools for OS X have been introduced within the past month -- and updated since then. "I don't really have time for a full quantitative analysis, but I think that interest is about three times what it was," said Gordon Worley, a 19-year-old Orlando, Fla., computer science student who oversees the Mac OS X version of GnuPG. "A lot of work is getting done in the MacGPG project because users of PGP are realizing that they have to find a solution when migrating to OS X." Zimmermann, now a consultant who remains active in the OpenPGP movement, indicated the Network Associates experience should be an example to privacy advocates. "... It is dangerous to put all your eggs in one basket, and we can clearly see now how bad it can be to allow PGP to be buried by a company that owns it exclusively," he said. "We are all fortunate that GPG was developed." After Network Associates purchased PGP, commercial releases began to include services not required by the average user -- virtual private networking, software firewall protection, key sharing and even a third-party corporate key recovery system. GnuPG, on the other hand, concentrates on the basics of digital signatures, e- mail and file encryption, and key management. And that's all that is required to protect Koh's postcards: "My prediction is that I will eventually end up with GnuPG installed on my machine." But what about the rest of the world? The open-source software movement, long the domain of highly talented and motivated programmers working toward a socio- technical ideal and for love of the craft, now is confronting the different expectations of a PGP consumer base unwilling to surrender ease of use. Network Associates, building on Zimmermann's work after purchasing his company, made significant strides in hiding the arcane and promoting the simple. Both Windows and Mac users finally could point-and-click their way to a more secure desktop and communications environment. At least a rudimentary understanding of the nature of public and private keys, and how to use them, was still required, but a comprehensive guide accompanying the software put the issues in as plain terms as possible. "Ease of use is critical," said Zimmermann. "E-mail encryption is used by only a small segment of the population of e-mail users largely because of ease-of-use issues." The GnuPG project isn't yet that advanced when it comes to the user experience, Koch concedes. GnuPG is the engine that drives the encryption system: encrypting, decrypting, signing and verifying, and creating and managing public and private keys. Yet it relies on command-line entries. Installation requires some minimal direct input of text commands. Graphical interfaces are available, but they are separate, not part of the basic GnuPG package. Even Mac OS X users will find that installation of the basic MacGPG package requires inputting text commands. And Worley, the Mac team's leader, is very aware that Mac users are accustomed to more polish. "We have preliminary versions of most of the software that the average PGP user will need on OS X, but more work is needed. Our software does not fulfill the expectations of the Mac experience yet." Open-source can also mean "closed climate," with developers working only to meet their own desires and those of a relatively small and stable base of users and fans. The strength of the movement -- distributed development by volunteer programmers worldwide -- isn't geared toward the sudden appearance of clamoring consumers with questions, complaints and wish lists in hand. Eric S. Raymond, president and co-founder of the Open Source Initiative, says the system will adjust. "In fact, I think this kind of bombardment is a good thing. I think it is exactly what open-source developers need to get a clue about the way actual end-users think." The commercial adage that the customer is always right still rules, he said. "Much of the open-source community is still weak at end-user UI. Most hackers have not yet assimilated the knowledge or the attitude necessary to serve end-users like these. This will change, but it won't change overnight." Despite its surge in user popularity, GnuPG may not remain the long-term sole source for new PGP applications. Network Associates' new code is locked away, but the company still hopes to sell it. And the OpenPGP standard means that anyone with the will or the money -- or both -- can create and market a new product. Privacy advocates say that's precisely the point. "The general public seems very unaware and unconcerned with basic issues of privacy and how their use of the Internet contributes to major loss of privacy," said Tom McCune, a PGP user from Holland Patent, N.Y., who maintains a popular Web site dedicated to PGP issues. "For those with some level of awareness, there is a basic attitude of just not wanting to be bothered with doing something about it, and this is tremendously complicated by general lack of technical skill." Advocates believe open development by several companies, private organizations and individual programmers will lead to even more improvements, wider use and, ultimately, greater protection of personal privacy. Copyright 2002 Salon.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Mar 30 17:22:18 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 17:22:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020331012218.62957.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Funny, no one has clarified, or even mentioned, what specific mission SCN could have. Also, no one has mentioned what SCN lacks, or whatever, to reason why it may partner elsewhere. I didn't intend to imply anything for SCN with mentioning other organizations. However, I've been pretty clear about having low-cost or free internet access similar to that offered by "regular" ISPs. This would mean something similar to the freenet in Tampa Bay, Floriday. They have something good going. Patrick --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > "Being" SCN doesn't mean staying exactly the way we are now! > > For sure. But would this experiment really be a success if it required > changing our purposes, fundamental values, and every key element and > characteristic--everything but the name plate--beyond all recognition? > > It seems to me that we should not be jumping onto some business model > because it seems to be successful. Rather, we should inquire into what it > takes to make _our_ model successful. Other examples can be illustrative, > but each case is different, has different factors, and it can take a bit > of careful study to tease out just what the correct lesson is. And as > successful organizations often have no idea what makes them successful, it > is necessary to also study unsuccessful organizations. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sat Mar 30 17:22:18 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 17:22:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020331012218.62957.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Funny, no one has clarified, or even mentioned, what specific mission SCN could have. Also, no one has mentioned what SCN lacks, or whatever, to reason why it may partner elsewhere. I didn't intend to imply anything for SCN with mentioning other organizations. However, I've been pretty clear about having low-cost or free internet access similar to that offered by "regular" ISPs. This would mean something similar to the freenet in Tampa Bay, Floriday. They have something good going. Patrick --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > "Being" SCN doesn't mean staying exactly the way we are now! > > For sure. But would this experiment really be a success if it required > changing our purposes, fundamental values, and every key element and > characteristic--everything but the name plate--beyond all recognition? > > It seems to me that we should not be jumping onto some business model > because it seems to be successful. Rather, we should inquire into what it > takes to make _our_ model successful. Other examples can be illustrative, > but each case is different, has different factors, and it can take a bit > of careful study to tease out just what the correct lesson is. And as > successful organizations often have no idea what makes them successful, it > is necessary to also study unsuccessful organizations. > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Sat Mar 30 23:04:41 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 23:04:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <20020331012218.62957.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Patrick, Here is how I'd answer your question. I'd just think that we'd want to keep working on these commitmentss... Without in any way denigrating our past and current efforts I think we could go further (*much* further) than we have so far. Seattle Community Network Principles _________________________________________________________________ The Seattle Community Network (SCN) is a free public-access computer network for exchanging and accessing information. Beyond that, however, it is a service conceived for community empowerment. Our principles are a series of commitments to help guide the ongoing development and management of the system for both the organizers and participating individuals and organizations. Commitment to Access Access to the SCN will be free to all * We will provide access to all groups of people particularly those without ready access to information technology. * We will provide access to people with diverse needs. This may include special-purpose interfaces. * We will make the SCN accessible from public places. Commitment to Service The SCN will offer reliable and responsive service * We will provide information that is timely and useful to the community. * We will provide access to databases and other services. Commitment to Democracy The SCN will promote participation in government and public dialogue * The community will be actively involved in the ongoing development of the SCN. * We will place high value in freedom of speech and expression and in the free exchange of ideas. * We will make every effort to ensure privacy of the system users. * We will support democratic use of electronic technology. Commitment to the World Community In addition to serving the local community, we will become part of the regional, national and international community * We will build a system that can serve as a model for other communities. Commitment to the Future We will continue to evolve and improve the SCN * We will explore the use of innovative applications such as electronic town halls for community governance, or electronic encyclopedias for enhanced access to information. * We will work with information providers and with groups involved in similar projects using other media. * We will solicit feedback on the technology as it is used, and make it as accessible and humane as possible. ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * ****************************************************************** On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > Funny, no one has clarified, or even mentioned, what specific mission SCN could > have. Also, no one has mentioned what SCN lacks, or whatever, to reason why it may > partner elsewhere. > > I didn't intend to imply anything for SCN with mentioning other organizations. > However, I've been pretty clear about having low-cost or free internet access > similar to that offered by "regular" ISPs. > > This would mean something similar to the freenet in Tampa Bay, Floriday. They have > something good going. > > Patrick > > --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > > On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > "Being" SCN doesn't mean staying exactly the way we are now! > > > > For sure. But would this experiment really be a success if it required > > changing our purposes, fundamental values, and every key element and > > characteristic--everything but the name plate--beyond all recognition? > > > > It seems to me that we should not be jumping onto some business model > > because it seems to be successful. Rather, we should inquire into what it > > takes to make _our_ model successful. Other examples can be illustrative, > > but each case is different, has different factors, and it can take a bit > > of careful study to tease out just what the correct lesson is. And as > > successful organizations often have no idea what makes them successful, it > > is necessary to also study unsuccessful organizations. > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover > http://greetings.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Mar 31 13:49:00 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 13:49:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020331214900.93176.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, Thank you for the feedback. Those are great principles, however what specific technologies would you suggest for implementing those principles? For instance, on the town halls idea, we will have Discus discussion software up and running soon. And: As for providing access to information, does that mean to continue with text dial-up service, or have PPP access like the freenet in the Tampa Bay area? How about FTP access for all? I love the principles: They are very general, but they point in a great direction. Kind of like our constitution: It is written on principles, but laws are enacted to put those principles into action. Of course, we have a town hall forum with this mailing list. It works great. Thanks, Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > Patrick, > > Here is how I'd answer your question. > > I'd just think that we'd want to keep working on these commitmentss... > > Without in any way denigrating our past and current efforts > I think we could go further (*much* further) than we have so > far. > > > Seattle Community Network > > Principles > _________________________________________________________________ > > The Seattle Community Network (SCN) is a free public-access > computer network for exchanging and accessing information. Beyond > that, however, it is a service conceived for community empowerment. > Our principles are a series of commitments to help guide the > ongoing development and management of the system for both the > organizers and participating individuals and organizations. > > Commitment to Access > > Access to the SCN will be free to all > * We will provide access to all groups of people particularly those > without ready access to information technology. > * We will provide access to people with diverse needs. This may > include special-purpose interfaces. > * We will make the SCN accessible from public places. > > Commitment to Service > > The SCN will offer reliable and responsive service > * We will provide information that is timely and useful to the > community. > * We will provide access to databases and other services. > > Commitment to Democracy > > The SCN will promote participation in government and public > dialogue > * The community will be actively involved in the ongoing development > of the SCN. > * We will place high value in freedom of speech and expression and > in the free exchange of ideas. > * We will make every effort to ensure privacy of the system users. > * We will support democratic use of electronic technology. > > Commitment to the World Community > > In addition to serving the local community, we will become part of > the regional, national and international community > * We will build a system that can serve as a model for other > communities. > > Commitment to the Future > > We will continue to evolve and improve the SCN > * We will explore the use of innovative applications such as > electronic town halls for community governance, or electronic > encyclopedias for enhanced access to information. > * We will work with information providers and with groups involved > in similar projects using other media. > * We will solicit feedback on the technology as it is used, and make > it as accessible and humane as possible. > > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > Funny, no one has clarified, or even mentioned, what specific mission SCN could > > have. Also, no one has mentioned what SCN lacks, or whatever, to reason why it > may > > partner elsewhere. > > > > I didn't intend to imply anything for SCN with mentioning other organizations. > > However, I've been pretty clear about having low-cost or free internet access > > similar to that offered by "regular" ISPs. > > > > This would mean something similar to the freenet in Tampa Bay, Floriday. They > have > > something good going. > > > > Patrick > > > > --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > > > On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > > "Being" SCN doesn't mean staying exactly the way we are now! > > > > > > For sure. But would this experiment really be a success if it required > > > changing our purposes, fundamental values, and every key element and > > > characteristic--everything but the name plate--beyond all recognition? > > > > > > It seems to me that we should not be jumping onto some business model > > > because it seems to be successful. Rather, we should inquire into what it > > > takes to make _our_ model successful. Other examples can be illustrative, > > > but each case is different, has different factors, and it can take a bit > > > of careful study to tease out just what the correct lesson is. And as > > > successful organizations often have no idea what makes them successful, it > > > is necessary to also study unsuccessful organizations. > > > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover > > http://greetings.yahoo.com/ > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Mar 31 16:06:37 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:06:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: SCN Home Page Update for April 2002 Message-ID: <20020401000637.12162.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> I've updated the SCN home page for April 2002. Four new SCN hosted sites are profiled. Thanks, Patrick ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From douglas at scn.org Sun Mar 31 21:14:00 2002 From: douglas at scn.org (Doug Schuler) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 21:14:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <20020331214900.93176.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for your note Patrick. To me each statement in the principles suggests quite a number of possible things that SCN could do. I realize that limited resources (money, time, personel, etc.) doesn't allow us to do everything it could but I don't think that should prevent us from thinking creatively about new projects, etc. I do want to point out something in your note that I think I'd quibble with. YOu say, what "specific technologies do you suggest?" To me that's not quite the right question because it suggests that SCN addresses problems with technology alone. I hope that we never forget that SCN looks towards addressing things in ways that are SOCIAL + TECHNOLOGICAL! That is the only way that we could ever make any progess with our principles. -- Doug ****************************************************************** * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * * is being shaped today. * * But by whom and to what ends? * * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * ****************************************************************** On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > Doug, > > Thank you for the feedback. Those are great principles, however what > specific technologies would you suggest for implementing those > principles? For instance, on the town halls idea, we will have Discus > discussion software up and running soon. > > And: As for providing access to information, does that mean to > continue with text dial-up service, or have PPP access like the > freenet in the Tampa Bay area? How about FTP access for all? > > I love the principles: They are very general, but they point in a > great direction. Kind of like our constitution: It is written on > principles, but laws are enacted to put those principles into action. > > Of course, we have a town hall forum with this mailing list. It works > great. > > Thanks, > Patrick > > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > Patrick, > > > > Here is how I'd answer your question. > > > > I'd just think that we'd want to keep working on these commitmentss... > > > > Without in any way denigrating our past and current efforts > > I think we could go further (*much* further) than we have so > > far. > > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > Principles > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > The Seattle Community Network (SCN) is a free public-access > > computer network for exchanging and accessing information. Beyond > > that, however, it is a service conceived for community empowerment. > > Our principles are a series of commitments to help guide the > > ongoing development and management of the system for both the > > organizers and participating individuals and organizations. > > > > Commitment to Access > > > > Access to the SCN will be free to all > > * We will provide access to all groups of people particularly those > > without ready access to information technology. > > * We will provide access to people with diverse needs. This may > > include special-purpose interfaces. > > * We will make the SCN accessible from public places. > > > > Commitment to Service > > > > The SCN will offer reliable and responsive service > > * We will provide information that is timely and useful to the > > community. > > * We will provide access to databases and other services. > > > > Commitment to Democracy > > > > The SCN will promote participation in government and public > > dialogue > > * The community will be actively involved in the ongoing development > > of the SCN. > > * We will place high value in freedom of speech and expression and > > in the free exchange of ideas. > > * We will make every effort to ensure privacy of the system users. > > * We will support democratic use of electronic technology. > > > > Commitment to the World Community > > > > In addition to serving the local community, we will become part of > > the regional, national and international community > > * We will build a system that can serve as a model for other > > communities. > > > > Commitment to the Future > > > > We will continue to evolve and improve the SCN > > * We will explore the use of innovative applications such as > > electronic town halls for community governance, or electronic > > encyclopedias for enhanced access to information. > > * We will work with information providers and with groups involved > > in similar projects using other media. > > * We will solicit feedback on the technology as it is used, and make > > it as accessible and humane as possible. > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > * is being shaped today. * > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > Funny, no one has clarified, or even mentioned, what specific mission SCN could > > > have. Also, no one has mentioned what SCN lacks, or whatever, to reason why it > > may > > > partner elsewhere. > > > > > > I didn't intend to imply anything for SCN with mentioning other organizations. > > > However, I've been pretty clear about having low-cost or free internet access > > > similar to that offered by "regular" ISPs. > > > > > > This would mean something similar to the freenet in Tampa Bay, Floriday. They > > have > > > something good going. > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > > > > On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > > > > "Being" SCN doesn't mean staying exactly the way we are now! > > > > > > > > For sure. But would this experiment really be a success if it required > > > > changing our purposes, fundamental values, and every key element and > > > > characteristic--everything but the name plate--beyond all recognition? > > > > > > > > It seems to me that we should not be jumping onto some business model > > > > because it seems to be successful. Rather, we should inquire into what it > > > > takes to make _our_ model successful. Other examples can be illustrative, > > > > but each case is different, has different factors, and it can take a bit > > > > of careful study to tease out just what the correct lesson is. And as > > > > successful organizations often have no idea what makes them successful, it > > > > is necessary to also study unsuccessful organizations. > > > > > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > Webmaster > > > Seattle Community Network > > > http://www.scn.org > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com/ > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > unsubscribe scn > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > ===== > Webmaster > Seattle Community Network > http://www.scn.org > "Powering our communities with technology" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover > http://greetings.yahoo.com/ > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From clariun at yahoo.com Sun Mar 31 21:38:37 2002 From: clariun at yahoo.com (patrick fisher) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 21:38:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020401053837.34932.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com> Doug, I agree completely. I think we are both looking at the same thing, but as human beings, and lacking the telepathy of ants, we often need to sort things out to realize we speak of the same things. Yes, social is very important. Social drives technology. Technology drive social after the fact. Or maybe each drives the other. We have the social, so we need to find out how to improve the social through technology. We have home pages, we have mailing lists, we will soon have the Discus (www.scn.org/discus/). Those are good sources of technology to provide for the social aspects. With that, perhaps I'm thinking mainly of the communication part of 'social'. I presume you may be thinking of broader social aspects of technology. Whatever the case, this topic is extremely interesting, and I know you will provide an outlet for discussing such matters. Please let me know when when to publish when the big events are going on with your organization and I will spotlight them on our home page. Thanks! Patrick --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > Thanks for your note Patrick. > > To me each statement in the principles suggests quite a number > of possible things that SCN could do. I realize that limited > resources (money, time, personel, etc.) doesn't allow us to > do everything it could but I don't think that should prevent > us from thinking creatively about new projects, etc. > > I do want to point out something in your note that I think > I'd quibble with. YOu say, what "specific technologies > do you suggest?" To me that's not quite the right question > because it suggests that SCN addresses problems with > technology alone. I hope that we never forget that SCN > looks towards addressing things in ways that are SOCIAL + > TECHNOLOGICAL! That is the only way that we could ever make > any progess with our principles. > > -- Doug > > ****************************************************************** > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > * is being shaped today. * > * But by whom and to what ends? * > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > ****************************************************************** > > > On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > Doug, > > > > Thank you for the feedback. Those are great principles, however what > > specific technologies would you suggest for implementing those > > principles? For instance, on the town halls idea, we will have Discus > > discussion software up and running soon. > > > > And: As for providing access to information, does that mean to > > continue with text dial-up service, or have PPP access like the > > freenet in the Tampa Bay area? How about FTP access for all? > > > > I love the principles: They are very general, but they point in a > > great direction. Kind of like our constitution: It is written on > > principles, but laws are enacted to put those principles into action. > > > > Of course, we have a town hall forum with this mailing list. It works > > great. > > > > Thanks, > > Patrick > > > > > > > > --- Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > Patrick, > > > > > > Here is how I'd answer your question. > > > > > > I'd just think that we'd want to keep working on these commitmentss... > > > > > > Without in any way denigrating our past and current efforts > > > I think we could go further (*much* further) than we have so > > > far. > > > > > > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > > > Principles > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > The Seattle Community Network (SCN) is a free public-access > > > computer network for exchanging and accessing information. Beyond > > > that, however, it is a service conceived for community empowerment. > > > Our principles are a series of commitments to help guide the > > > ongoing development and management of the system for both the > > > organizers and participating individuals and organizations. > > > > > > Commitment to Access > > > > > > Access to the SCN will be free to all > > > * We will provide access to all groups of people particularly those > > > without ready access to information technology. > > > * We will provide access to people with diverse needs. This may > > > include special-purpose interfaces. > > > * We will make the SCN accessible from public places. > > > > > > Commitment to Service > > > > > > The SCN will offer reliable and responsive service > > > * We will provide information that is timely and useful to the > > > community. > > > * We will provide access to databases and other services. > > > > > > Commitment to Democracy > > > > > > The SCN will promote participation in government and public > > > dialogue > > > * The community will be actively involved in the ongoing development > > > of the SCN. > > > * We will place high value in freedom of speech and expression and > > > in the free exchange of ideas. > > > * We will make every effort to ensure privacy of the system users. > > > * We will support democratic use of electronic technology. > > > > > > Commitment to the World Community > > > > > > In addition to serving the local community, we will become part of > > > the regional, national and international community > > > * We will build a system that can serve as a model for other > > > communities. > > > > > > Commitment to the Future > > > > > > We will continue to evolve and improve the SCN > > > * We will explore the use of innovative applications such as > > > electronic town halls for community governance, or electronic > > > encyclopedias for enhanced access to information. > > > * We will work with information providers and with groups involved > > > in similar projects using other media. > > > * We will solicit feedback on the technology as it is used, and make > > > it as accessible and humane as possible. > > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > > > * SHAPING THE NETWORK SOCIETY * > > > * Patterns for Participation, Action, and Change * > > > * http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02 * > > > * Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure * > > > * is being shaped today. * > > > * But by whom and to what ends? * > > > * Questions: diac02-info at cpsr.org * > > > ****************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote: > > > > > > > Funny, no one has clarified, or even mentioned, what specific mission SCN > could > > > > have. Also, no one has mentioned what SCN lacks, or whatever, to reason why > it > > > may > > > > partner elsewhere. > > > > > > > > I didn't intend to imply anything for SCN with mentioning other > organizations. > > > > However, I've been pretty clear about having low-cost or free internet > access > > > > similar to that offered by "regular" ISPs. > > > > > > > > This would mean something similar to the freenet in Tampa Bay, Floriday. > They > > > have > > > > something good going. > > > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > --- "J. Johnson" wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Doug Schuler wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > "Being" SCN doesn't mean staying exactly the way we are now! > > > > > > > > > > For sure. But would this experiment really be a success if it required > > > > > changing our purposes, fundamental values, and every key element and > > > > > characteristic--everything but the name plate--beyond all recognition? > > > > > > > > > > It seems to me that we should not be jumping onto some business model > > > > > because it seems to be successful. Rather, we should inquire into what it > > > > > takes to make _our_ model successful. Other examples can be illustrative, > > > > > but each case is different, has different factors, and it can take a bit > > > > > of careful study to tease out just what the correct lesson is. And as > > > > > successful organizations often have no idea what makes them successful, it > > > > > is necessary to also study unsuccessful organizations. > > > > > > > > > > === JJ ============================================================= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > Webmaster > > > > Seattle Community Network > > > > http://www.scn.org > > > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover > > > > http://greetings.yahoo.com/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > > unsubscribe scn > > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > > > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > > > unsubscribe scn > > > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > > > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * > > > > > > ===== > > Webmaster > > Seattle Community Network > > http://www.scn.org > > "Powering our communities with technology" > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover > > http://greetings.yahoo.com/ > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * > . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: > majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: > unsubscribe scn > ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== > * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * ===== Webmaster Seattle Community Network http://www.scn.org "Powering our communities with technology" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From jmabel at speakeasy.org Sun Mar 31 23:58:47 2002 From: jmabel at speakeasy.org (Joe Mabel) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:58:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCN: Re: principles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [SNIP] > * We will make the SCN accessible from public places. [SNIP] How long since the Board, or some other appropriate body, gave any thought to what this now means? Now that access to SCN merely means access to the Internet, what (if anything) are we doing to enhance the availability of access to the Internet in pubic places? JM * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * * * * * * . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to: majordomo at scn.org In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at: ==== * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ * * * * * * * From ronnie at acd-pc.com Thu Mar 14 00:07:33 2002 From: ronnie at acd-pc.com (ronnie at acd-pc.com) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 00:07:33 Subject: SCN: Enviro-Energy Corp, (ENGY .136) EXPECTS REVENUE TO BE $45 MIL Time:12:07:33 AM Message-ID: <200204050035.QAA11423@scn> Dear, Mr. 85785993, Hello Hear some news is coming, stock looks like it is basing now. Possible accumulation at this level! Symbol: ENGY (OTCBB) Current Price: .127 website: http://www.enviro-energycorp.com ENVIRO-ENERGY CORPORATION (OTC BB: ENGY). - a consolidator and operator of environmentally related businesses. * ENGY recorded 2001 revenues $6,500,000 - * UP OVER 4000% compared to 2000 revenues of $146,348. * ENGY expects 2002 revenues to be $45,000,000 ��" and EARN $5,500,000 With a current market cap less than half of expected 2002 revenues, undiscovered ENGY is surprising trading for just pennies!!! Enviro-Energy Corporation Releases 2002 Estimates SPOKANE, Wash.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Feb. 28, 2002--Enviro-Energy Corporation (OTCBB:ENGY - news; Germany: 676401-EVM.BER) (www.enviro-energycorp.com) today released its 2002 first quarter and full year estimates. Enviro-Energy Corporation is pleased to report that 2002 financials will be significantly higher than previous years. This increase in performance results from recent acquisitions and developments in the Company's waste-to-energy business. First Quarter 2002 2001 2000 Revenue $3,400,000 $405,905 $15,901 Profit $10,000 ($165,798) ($89,604) Full Year 2002 2001 2000 Revenue $45,000,000 $6,500,000 $146,348 Profit $5,500,000 ($650,000) ($298,914) ``I cannot overstate the importance of our patented and proprietary technologies in bio-waste-to-energy systems,'' continues Dr. Loven. ``In addition to exceptional technology for large scale needs we have engineered the Model T Ford for this market. What we have may have the same impact to bio-waste treatment as Henry Ford's Tin Lizzy had to automobiles. ....... (See the Feb 28 News Release for more information on ENGY !) Recent News Thursday, Mar 07, 2002 Enviro-Energy Corporation Adds New Outside Board Member, Initiates Moves to Strengthen Management and Engineering Resources - Business Wire - Monday, Mar 4, 2002 Enviro-Energy Corporation Receives New Orders, Upgrades 2002 Forecasts - Business Wire - Thursday, Feb 28, 2002 Enviro-Energy Corporation Releases 2002 Estimates - Business Wire - Friday, Feb 8, 2002 Enviro-Energy Corporation Commences Bio-Waste-to-Energy System Construction, Discusses Market Plan - Business Wire - Tuesday, Feb 5, 2002 Enviro-Energy Corporation Subsidiary, Environmental Reclamation, Inc., Releases 2002 Business Outlook - Business Wire - Closing Prices & Volume Last 9 Trading Days 02/28/02 4,544,300 0.09 03/01/02 2,650,700 0.09 03/04/02 22,845,300 0.14 03/05/02 10,355,300 0.12 03/06/02 3,688,300 0.12 03/07/02 3,989,800 0.13 03/08/02 4,845,100 0.13 03/11/02 2,920,200 0.14 03/12/02 2,644,100 0.13 03/13/02 1,478,200 0.127 DISCLAIMER All information provided on this newsletter pertaining to investing, stocks, securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. We advise all readers and subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in stocks any stock including those featured here. All information provided regarding the companies featured on this newsletter come from the companies themselves, SEC filings, news releases, company web as well as other sources of publicly available information. The profiles of companies are not a solicitation or recommendation to buy, sell, or hold these or any other securities. Investors should not rely solely on the information contained in this newsletter. Rather, investors should use the information contained in this newsletter as a starting point for doing additional independent research on the featured companies. Factual statements in this newsletter are made as of the date stated and are subject to change wit ut notice.The profiles on this newsletter are believed to be reliable; however this newsletter disclaims any and all liability as to the completeness or accuracy of the information contained in any advertisement and for any omissions of material facts from such advertisement. Investing in micro-cap and growth securities is highly speculative and carries an extremely high degree of risk. It is possible that an investor's investment may be lost or impaired due to the speculative nature of the companies profiled. Information presented in the newsletter contain "forward looking statements"within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be "forward looking statements." Forward looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. Forward looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as "projects", "foresee", "expects'", "will,""anticipates," "estimates," "believes," "understands" or that by statements indicating certain actions "may," "could," or "might" occur. There is no guarantee past erformance will be indicative of future results. The accuracy or completeness of the information in this newsletter is only as reliable as the sources they were obtained from. This newslettera and/or families ay at times hold positions in securities mentioned herein, and may make purchases or sales in such securities featured here. Any compensation for efforts in research, presentation, and dissemination of information on companies featured here can be found on the bottom of this page. Investments in small cap companies are generally deemed to be highly speculative and to involve substantial risk, making it appropriate for readers to consult with professional investment advisors and to make independent investigations before acting on information published by this newsletter and its staff must inform its subscribers that investment in small cap companies could prove to be high risk investments with the result of loss of part or total principal investment. 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