<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff
style="FONT: 10pt Arial; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: 2px">
<DIV>The key part of Steve Guest's message is the following:</DIV>
<DIV>____________________</DIV>
<DIV>"I do not see SCN being able to commit<BR>to supplying free full internet
access for our users.<BR><BR>Plus - this was not what SCN was designed to
offer. It is initialy an<BR>email and maillist site which grew into a
major web resource for Seattle.<BR>We were never in the free ISP
business."</DIV>
<DIV>_____________________</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The above contains a Catch 22 element. (1) We do not have the funds
and staff to support a full ISP (including standard graphical functions);
and (2) we will continue to offer a very limited type of service and so we will
NEVER attract or bring in the funds to support such a full ISP service.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rather than mere speculation, it will be necessary to get a proper
accounting (indepent) to determine</DIV>
<DIV>1. How much funding it would take to operate an independent, proper
ISP. (Staff and hardware)</DIV>
<DIV>2. How many paying subscribers it would take (at $10/month) to
support such an ISP service. (This price would under cut almost all other
services.)</DIV>
<DIV>3. How many low-income subscriptions could be offered for little or
no cost under this full ISP scenario.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If the answers to 1 and 2 are positive (i.e., it would be doable to get
enough subscribers to fully fund all aspects of a complete ISP service), THEN it
would be appropriate to discuss abandoning the tax-free status and switch to a
for-profit service. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>By the way, the tax-free status comes at a cost: SCNA cannot
lobby. SCNA, like Eugene was, is severely limited by the IRS as to
what low-income services it can offer and as to what philosophical stance it can
follow actively.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The library connection also has similar costs. If SCNA actually did
become active (read "controversial"), the library could no longer provide free
connection. As Steve pointed out, "(SCN)A is initialy an email and
maillist site." The design of the organization is limited by that earlier
small mission. Keeping the library "sponsorship" and the subsequent
tax-free status prevent SCNA from being a desireable ISP and from being an
effective community influence.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Until an independent accounting can answer 1, 2, & 3, there is no way
to describe SCNA's potential or future. It can only continue to
drift.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>P.S.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>About the statement: "We were never in the free ISP business."
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Actually, that is exactly what we used to tell everyone -- that
we WERE a free ISP.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A href="mailto:Marilyn.Sheck@spl.org" title=Marilyn.Sheck@spl.org>Marilyn
Sheck</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:scna-board@scn.org"
title=scna-board@scn.org>scna-board@scn.org</A> ; <A
href="mailto:steveg@scn.org" title=steveg@scn.org>steveg@scn.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A href="mailto:douglas@scn.org"
title=douglas@scn.org>douglas@scn.org</A> ; <A href="mailto:scn@scn.org"
title=scn@scn.org>scn@scn.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 21, 2001 1:53
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: BD: Re: SCN: "Free-Nets" in
Los Angeles Times</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Well said, Steve. And, YES, you are right about the library not
being able</DIV>
<DIV>to sustain your internet feed if your traffic increased. We are
already having</DIV>
<DIV>trouble with our bandwidth just with SCN in its present form combined
with</DIV>
<DIV>our own services. We would not be able to use public funds, which
is what</DIV>
<DIV>we pay for the Internet connection with, to support SCN's connection if
it</DIV>
<DIV>is more than a small fraction of our overall bandwidth
usage.<BR><BR>>>> <A href="mailto:steveg@scn.org">steveg@scn.org</A>
12/21/01 01:08PM >>><BR>Hi<BR>Well first off we do have free dialup
service. On the other hand, this is<BR>basic command style access and
not FREE Internet access. I agree it would<BR>be great to offer such
services, but we have address some important issues<BR>first.<BR><BR>Let me
try and explain why we do not have free internet access.<BR><BR>1) If we were
to offer free unrestricted connections to the Internet via<BR>our free dial
service and our SPL donated connection to the Internet, then<BR>the traffic
which SCN uses would jump considerably. This would be<BR>followed by the
lose of our donated Internet feed, because currently I<BR>have been led to
believe that the Library would not be able to justify the<BR>cost of the
service. This would mean that we would have to provide our<BR>own
Internet feed. At this point we raise the need then to be in
the<BR>Library because we are then simply taking up their limited space.
So if<BR>this was to happen then SCN would have to cover the phone lines,
the<BR>Internet feed and possible the cost of a new location. We do not
have the<BR>budget for this and we would be out of funds within months or
weeks.<BR><BR>2) If we were to offer such a service with a fee, as indicated
that<BR>Victoria in Canada does, then we open another can of worms.
First lets<BR>point out we are not in Canada and therefore have a whole
different set of<BR>rules to abide by. One of these is the IRS.
They are already looking at<BR>FreeNets because our "charitable" status is
based on the educational value<BR>of the service. As soon as we set up a
competing service with a<BR>commercial service such as MSN or AOL - fee for
service - in an area which<BR>is not directly education then we fall outside
the charitable status.<BR>Thus we lose the 501(c)3 status. This is what
happened or is happening to<BR>Eugene FreeNet. They had to setup a
commercial company to sell their fee<BR>for service IP connections and break
away from the educational section.<BR>Again something that would put us at
odds with the Library and its<BR>donation to us.<BR><BR>The IRS are still
sniping and they have not yet gotten to SCN, but we are<BR>in their
sights. We have to be careful and stay legal.<BR><BR>Until we can figure
out the IRS's view of this, understand the Library's<BR>view, have the funds
and staff to support this and the software to ensure<BR>that we can guard
against misuse - I do not see SCN being able to commit<BR>to supplying free
full internet access for our users.<BR><BR>Plus - this was not what SCN was
designed to offer. It is initialy an<BR>email and maillist site which
grew into a major web resource for Seattle.<BR>We were never in the free ISP
business.<BR><BR>I hope this response is clear. I am not trying to say
we cannot discuss<BR>these points, but we need to ensure that we can support
our current<BR>services before we branch into
others.<BR><BR>Steve<BR>
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=<BR>Steve
Guest
steveg@scn.org
steve@groupworks.org<BR>VP of Board and ED of Seattle Community
Network<BR>(425) 653
7353
<A href="http://www.scn.org/">http://www.scn.org/</A><BR><BR>On Thu, 20 Dec
2001, patrick wrote:<BR><BR>> I wish SCN had low-cost, regular dial-up
service. Victoria freenet<BR>> has regular dial-up service for $104 a year,
which is a great deal.<BR>><BR>> Few people use Lynx and after they have
used Hotmail or some other<BR>> web-based service to check their mail,
after they have surfed the net<BR>> to check on items on eBay, etc., one
would find it hard to go to a<BR>> clunky Lynx browswer to surf the
web.<BR>><BR>> Patrick<BR>><BR>> --- Doug Schuler
<douglas@scn.org> wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> > A good article
entitled "Freenets Getting a New Lease on Life" is<BR>> > in today's Los
Angeles Times.<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> <A
href="http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dtechnology">http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-000100643dec20.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dtechnology</A><BR>>
><BR>> > -- Doug<BR>> ><BR>> > * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* From the Listowner * * * * * * * * *<BR>> > * * *<BR>>
> . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message
to:<BR>> > majordomo@scn.org In the
body of the message, type:<BR>> > unsubscribe scn<BR>> > ====
Messages posted on this list are also available on the web at:<BR>> >
====<BR>> > * * * * * * * <A
href="http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ ">http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/ </A>
* * * *<BR>> > * * *<BR><BR>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *<BR>scna-board@scn.org is for the purposes of
scna board members' internal<BR>communications. Please contact
sharma@scn.org if you have questions<BR>about this
list.<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>