Archving/Updating SCN (was RE: SCN: Hello? )

Michael Hanson michaelh at scn.org
Wed Mar 27 10:50:22 PST 2002 

I think we need to be clear what we mean when we say archiving.

I interpreted the initial suggestion about archiving to mean making copies
of the current state of SCN, or selected parts of it, and putting these
aside for posterity.  (Similar to what the internet wayback machine
(http://www.archive.org) provides , but on a local level - where we can
control what gets saved, and for how long.)  Note that this doesn't entail
moving, removing or demoting current content - you just copy it, stash it
away in another directory or on a backup and carry on. Seems fine if
somebody wants to do it - it can be interesting and instructive to look
back at old versions.  (e.g. I thought the home page say of 1998 was much
nicer than the one we have today - worked with text browsers, clear
statement of what it is about - "A free network run by volunteers, and
open to all"  (the current "Powering our communities with technology" -
could be corporate speak from any computer or telecommunications company.) 
But I digress.)
  Anyway, archiving - the saving of copies of old material doesn't need
to entail any sort of housecleaning.  (Right before do the
housecleaning might be a good time to take an archival snapshot - the
before picture.  Then do one after housecleaning too - get it before
the dust can settle.)

  As far as housecleaning - that depends upon what want to do.  When talk
of "simplifying the directories" need to be clear what talking about.  If
you mean the unix directories/file names where the web pages are stored -
this is probably not a good idea.  Sure things are a bit tangled (multiple
links to same directory, etc.)  But any rearrangement means either breaking
a lot of web pages, both here and elsewhere (in peoples bookmarks files,
...) or keeping the current directory structure and adding yet another
set of cross-links.  (i.e. creating a bigger cobweb).  And ultimately
whatever rearrangement is done will gradually accumulate extra fluff until
it is not tidy either.  ("Come the revolution, things will be different,
not better, just different.")
  If you mean updating the content of the web pages that SCN maintains to
help users find pages on the site.  Evolution is probably better than
revolution there.  It may be well to ask editors to review the pages, but
wholesale redesigns are usually more of a curse than a blessing for the
user.  (Those who know how to find things already will be lost and the
chances of the new scheme actually being easier for the user are modest at
best.)  If you want to redesign these directories, watch some users who
know their way around SCN - what do they find hard, and watch some users
who don't know their way around (where do they look for things).  Start by
tweaking the directories given this sort of input - try to evolve it into
a smoother system.  If, after trying this, the users still think it is
hopeless, then use the input to generate an overhaul.  
  Too many web sites are afflicted by maintainers with too much time on
their hands or a position to justify.  (e.g. Look at places like MS (can
you guess where to find Internet Explorer), Netscape (try to find older
copies of Navigator) or DejaNews - they keep reorganizing things, but just
get busier pages and never (well, hardly ever) manage to make it easy to
do what one wants.)
  So, IMHO: archive (i.e. preserve copy of the state of SCN) - fine. 
Updating out of date information - great.  Rearranging URLS - better not. 
Tidying up the SCN web pages - better done by evolution than revolution. 
Base updates on input from users (i.e. for the most part people who are
not active in the webmasters group, etc.) 

  Michael

On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote:

> Joe,
> 
> The clutter needs to be reduced. There can be a place for discontinued pages,
> information, which is what I think Jim is referring to. If it means breaking
> someone's link, then that is the way it has to be. 
> 
> My reasoning is this: We need to have as much valuable information as possible on
> SCN, which it has a great deal of. At the same time we need to balance that with
> usability.
> 
> The Volunteer Community page is under SCN Communities. The old HTML file is still
> there. However, I cleaned up the section. 
> 
> Okay, back to beating a dead horse (for the last time): I have gone in circles and
> circles looking for information on SCN, not only because of the multitude of links,
> and not only because of the volume of data, but also because there is a lot of
> information that is not pertinent. 
> 
> When you have a lot of information that is not pertinent, it makes the very valuable
> information worthless if people can't find it.
> 
> SCN is great. It deserves to be greater.
> 
> Thanks,
> Patrick
> 
> --- Joe Mabel <jmabel at speakeasy.org> wrote:
> > Where it is our own SCN content - meetings that don't take place, etc - we 
> > should update the content! However, I strongly believe that even a page devoted 
> > to a meeting that no longer takes place should be modified to say "this page 
> > used to describe a meeting ..." etc. rather than be deleted, or you break 
> > someone else's link.
> > 
> > Not sure what page you mean by "The Volunteer Community Page". Can you give a 
> > URL?
> > 
> > --------------------
> > Joe Mabel
> > 
>
...
> > > > --------------------
> > > > Joe Mabel
> > > > 
> > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Thanks Joe for responding.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older and/or
> > > > > previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of some
> > > > > importance to figure some way of determining what material is no longer
> > > > > current.
> > > > > 
> > > > > In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices changes
> > > > > the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet this
> > > > > method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and modifications.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Interesting points, Joe.
> > > > > 
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM
> > > > > To: Jim Loring
> > > > > Cc: scn at scn.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: SCN: Hello?
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you
> > > > > intend
> > > > > to demote to "archive" status.  How do you intend to decide that certain
> > > > > content
> > > > > is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change its
> > > > > URLs:
> > > > > If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist.
> > > > > 
> > > > > That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such
> > > > > demotion, it may well be a good idea.  But I, for one, would certainly want
> > > > > to
> > > > > know your criteria before I endorsed this.
> > > > > 
> > > > > --------------------
> > > > > Joe Mabel
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Hello All -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about the
> > > > > > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material such
> > > > > as
> > > > > > web pages?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make it
> > > > > > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find information.
> > > > > It
> > > > > > would also be easier to edit the various sections.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages, and
> > > > > > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep SCN
> > > > > > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date reference.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on
> > > > > Wednesday.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jim Loring
> > > > > > webeditors at scn.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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