Fear not Re: Archving/Updating SCN (was RE: SCN: Hello? )
Joe Mabel
jmabel at speakeasy.org
Wed Mar 27 22:27:21 PST 2002
I agreee with everything Michael said. I HAVE asked specific questions. I asked
for examples of outdated content and was given one example that appears to be
perfectly up to date. I asked for the criteria that wil[Bw be used to determine
whether particulcr pages are out of date and got no response.
"Come to the meeting" is no answer. I'm in Romania, halfway around the world. I
believe you already knew that, but if you didn't you do now.
I am an active participant in SCN who has raised what I think are reasonable
concerns and I'm frankly feeling a little brushed off.
A "virtual community" should not mean that if you can't make the meeting you are
virtually disenfranchised.
So again, I will reiterate: update any outdated pages or, if more appropriate,
mark them as no longer current? Sure. Drop the entire content of certain pages
in favor of a link to a well-maintained place to get comparable information?
Absolutely. Rework top-level menus, eliminate or demote the chaff and emphasize
ehe wheat? Certainly. But moving around the actual arrangement of pages on disk
in a way that changes their URLs is almost always a bad idea.
--------------------
Joe Mabel
On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote:
> Please everyone,
>
> This discussion is getting a bit out of control.
>
> I do appreciate everyone's input. It is very valuable.
>
> However, before you let your imaginations take hold and interpret "what could
> happen" as reality:
>
> Please come to the general meeting ask ask the topic editors and myself about what
> is going on. Or email webeditors at scn.org and ask.
>
> I think there is too much needless worrying. I was going to stop posting on this
> topic as no one has specifically asked the topic editors and myself what is going
> on. People are assuming far more than what is going on in reality.
>
> I don't want to sound condescending. I'm human and I do the same things: You might
> read a newspaper article or hear something on the radio, partial information, then
> you go talk to someone else and the conversation becomes "reality" and it takes a
> life of its own! It's only natural.
>
> If I were not discussing the future with the topic editors and only reading some of
> the ideas circulating, I'd be freaking out.
>
> Rest assured, SCN has a very capable, talented, intelligent, and thoughtful group of
> topic editors. SCN is very lucky. And I feel very lucky to be working with them.
>
> With that said, I won't go any further into this topic. I would have to write
> volumes on even a simple subject in order to cover every angle, perspective, and
> provide an airtight message about what the topic editors and I have discussed for
> many hours at many meetings.
>
> Nothing is being taken lightly with SCN. It will be okay.
>
> Most importantly: NOTHING is being deleted. NOTHING is being thrown away. We are
> archiving everything. Whether that will all be available for viewing is another
> matter, but it will all be there.
>
> Thanks!
> Patrick
>
> ---
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Michael Hanson <michaelh at scn.org> wrote:
> >
> > I think we need to be clear what we mean when we say archiving.
> >
> > I interpreted the initial suggestion about archiving to mean making copies
> > of the current state of SCN, or selected parts of it, and putting these
> > aside for posterity. (Similar to what the internet wayback machine
> > (http://www.archive.org) provides , but on a local level - where we can
> > control what gets saved, and for how long.) Note that this doesn't entail
> > moving, removing or demoting current content - you just copy it, stash it
> > away in another directory or on a backup and carry on. Seems fine if
> > somebody wants to do it - it can be interesting and instructive to look
> > back at old versions. (e.g. I thought the home page say of 1998 was much
> > nicer than the one we have today - worked with text browsers, clear
> > statement of what it is about - "A free network run by volunteers, and
> > open to all" (the current "Powering our communities with technology" -
> > could be corporate speak from any computer or telecommunications company.)
> > But I digress.)
> > Anyway, archiving - the saving of copies of old material doesn't need
> > to entail any sort of housecleaning. (Right before do the
> > housecleaning might be a good time to take an archival snapshot - the
> > before picture. Then do one after housecleaning too - get it before
> > the dust can settle.)
> >
> > As far as housecleaning - that depends upon what want to do. When talk
> > of "simplifying the directories" need to be clear what talking about. If
> > you mean the unix directories/file names where the web pages are stored -
> > this is probably not a good idea. Sure things are a bit tangled (multiple
> > links to same directory, etc.) But any rearrangement means either breaking
> > a lot of web pages, both here and elsewhere (in peoples bookmarks files,
> > ...) or keeping the current directory structure and adding yet another
> > set of cross-links. (i.e. creating a bigger cobweb). And ultimately
> > whatever rearrangement is done will gradually accumulate extra fluff until
> > it is not tidy either. ("Come the revolution, things will be different,
> > not better, just different.")
> > If you mean updating the content of the web pages that SCN maintains to
> > help users find pages on the site. Evolution is probably better than
> > revolution there. It may be well to ask editors to review the pages, but
> > wholesale redesigns are usually more of a curse than a blessing for the
> > user. (Those who know how to find things already will be lost and the
> > chances of the new scheme actually being easier for the user are modest at
> > best.) If you want to redesign these directories, watch some users who
> > know their way around SCN - what do they find hard, and watch some users
> > who don't know their way around (where do they look for things). Start by
> > tweaking the directories given this sort of input - try to evolve it into
> > a smoother system. If, after trying this, the users still think it is
> > hopeless, then use the input to generate an overhaul.
> > Too many web sites are afflicted by maintainers with too much time on
> > their hands or a position to justify. (e.g. Look at places like MS (can
> > you guess where to find Internet Explorer), Netscape (try to find older
> > copies of Navigator) or DejaNews - they keep reorganizing things, but just
> > get busier pages and never (well, hardly ever) manage to make it easy to
> > do what one wants.)
> > So, IMHO: archive (i.e. preserve copy of the state of SCN) - fine.
> > Updating out of date information - great. Rearranging URLS - better not.
> > Tidying up the SCN web pages - better done by evolution than revolution.
> > Base updates on input from users (i.e. for the most part people who are
> > not active in the webmasters group, etc.)
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote:
> >
> > > Joe,
> > >
> > > The clutter needs to be reduced. There can be a place for discontinued pages,
> > > information, which is what I think Jim is referring to. If it means breaking
> > > someone's link, then that is the way it has to be.
> > >
> > > My reasoning is this: We need to have as much valuable information as possible
> > on
> > > SCN, which it has a great deal of. At the same time we need to balance that with
> > > usability.
> > >
> > > The Volunteer Community page is under SCN Communities. The old HTML file is
> > still
> > > there. However, I cleaned up the section.
> > >
> > > Okay, back to beating a dead horse (for the last time): I have gone in circles
> > and
> > > circles looking for information on SCN, not only because of the multitude of
> > links,
> > > and not only because of the volume of data, but also because there is a lot of
> > > information that is not pertinent.
> > >
> > > When you have a lot of information that is not pertinent, it makes the very
> > valuable
> > > information worthless if people can't find it.
> > >
> > > SCN is great. It deserves to be greater.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Patrick
> > >
> > > --- Joe Mabel <jmabel at speakeasy.org> wrote:
> > > > Where it is our own SCN content - meetings that don't take place, etc - we
> > > > should update the content! However, I strongly believe that even a page
> > devoted
> > > > to a meeting that no longer takes place should be modified to say "this page
> > > > used to describe a meeting ..." etc. rather than be deleted, or you break
> > > > someone else's link.
> > > >
> > > > Not sure what page you mean by "The Volunteer Community Page". Can you give a
> > > > URL?
> > > >
> > > > --------------------
> > > > Joe Mabel
> > > >
> > >
> > ...
> > > > > > --------------------
> > > > > > Joe Mabel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks Joe for responding.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older
> > and/or
> > > > > > > previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of some
> > > > > > > importance to figure some way of determining what material is no longer
> > > > > > > current.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices
> > changes
> > > > > > > the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet this
> > > > > > > method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and modifications.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Interesting points, Joe.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org]
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM
> > > > > > > To: Jim Loring
> > > > > > > Cc: scn at scn.org
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: SCN: Hello?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what you
> > > > > > > intend
> > > > > > > to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that certain
> > > > > > > content
> > > > > > > is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to change
> > its
> > > > > > > URLs:
> > > > > > > If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves such
> > > > > > > demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would certainly
> > want
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > know your criteria before I endorsed this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --------------------
> > > > > > > Joe Mabel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hello All -
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt about
> > the
> > > > > > > > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN material
> > such
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > web pages?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might make
> > it
> > > > > > > > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find
> > information.
> > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > would also be easier to edit the various sections.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web pages,
> > and
> > > > > > > > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you will.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to keep
> > SCN
> > > > > > > > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date
> > reference.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on
> > > > > > > Wednesday.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cheers!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jim Loring
> > > > > > > > webeditors at scn.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with Technology"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
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