Fear not Re: Archving/Updating SCN (was RE: SCN: Hello? )
patrick fisher
clariun at yahoo.com
Wed Mar 27 22:40:52 PST 2002
Joe,
Yes, I know you are in Romania, and I am sorry you could not make it. And the
virtual environment is important, so don't think you opinions do not count.
I think the word everyone is worried about is change. And the change will not be
that great. We want to minimize moving things around. On the other hand, clutter is
not a choice, either.
Don't worry: Things will not change a great deal. Things will, fundamentally, and
for the most part, stay the same.
An example I gave tonight was on the main help page: There are links there to SCN
policy and using Unix. Those items in particular are important to SCN and using it
effectively. However, it should not all be on the same page.
Patrick
--- Joe Mabel <jmabel at speakeasy.org> wrote:
> I agreee with everything Michael said. I HAVE asked specific questions. I asked
> for examples of outdated content and was given one example that appears to be
> perfectly up to date. I asked for the criteria that wil[Bw be used to determine
> whether particulcr pages are out of date and got no response.
>
> "Come to the meeting" is no answer. I'm in Romania, halfway around the world. I
> believe you already knew that, but if you didn't you do now.
>
> I am an active participant in SCN who has raised what I think are reasonable
> concerns and I'm frankly feeling a little brushed off.
>
> A "virtual community" should not mean that if you can't make the meeting you are
> virtually disenfranchised.
>
> So again, I will reiterate: update any outdated pages or, if more appropriate,
> mark them as no longer current? Sure. Drop the entire content of certain pages
> in favor of a link to a well-maintained place to get comparable information?
> Absolutely. Rework top-level menus, eliminate or demote the chaff and emphasize
> ehe wheat? Certainly. But moving around the actual arrangement of pages on disk
> in a way that changes their URLs is almost always a bad idea.
>
> --------------------
> Joe Mabel
>
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote:
>
> > Please everyone,
> >
> > This discussion is getting a bit out of control.
> >
> > I do appreciate everyone's input. It is very valuable.
> >
> > However, before you let your imaginations take hold and interpret "what could
> > happen" as reality:
> >
> > Please come to the general meeting ask ask the topic editors and myself about
> what
> > is going on. Or email webeditors at scn.org and ask.
> >
> > I think there is too much needless worrying. I was going to stop posting on this
> > topic as no one has specifically asked the topic editors and myself what is
> going
> > on. People are assuming far more than what is going on in reality.
> >
> > I don't want to sound condescending. I'm human and I do the same things: You
> might
> > read a newspaper article or hear something on the radio, partial information,
> then
> > you go talk to someone else and the conversation becomes "reality" and it takes
> a
> > life of its own! It's only natural.
> >
> > If I were not discussing the future with the topic editors and only reading some
> of
> > the ideas circulating, I'd be freaking out.
> >
> > Rest assured, SCN has a very capable, talented, intelligent, and thoughtful
> group of
> > topic editors. SCN is very lucky. And I feel very lucky to be working with them.
> >
> > With that said, I won't go any further into this topic. I would have to write
> > volumes on even a simple subject in order to cover every angle, perspective, and
> > provide an airtight message about what the topic editors and I have discussed
> for
> > many hours at many meetings.
> >
> > Nothing is being taken lightly with SCN. It will be okay.
> >
> > Most importantly: NOTHING is being deleted. NOTHING is being thrown away. We are
> > archiving everything. Whether that will all be available for viewing is another
> > matter, but it will all be there.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Patrick
> >
> > ---
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Michael Hanson <michaelh at scn.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think we need to be clear what we mean when we say archiving.
> > >
> > > I interpreted the initial suggestion about archiving to mean making copies
> > > of the current state of SCN, or selected parts of it, and putting these
> > > aside for posterity. (Similar to what the internet wayback machine
> > > (http://www.archive.org) provides , but on a local level - where we can
> > > control what gets saved, and for how long.) Note that this doesn't entail
> > > moving, removing or demoting current content - you just copy it, stash it
> > > away in another directory or on a backup and carry on. Seems fine if
> > > somebody wants to do it - it can be interesting and instructive to look
> > > back at old versions. (e.g. I thought the home page say of 1998 was much
> > > nicer than the one we have today - worked with text browsers, clear
> > > statement of what it is about - "A free network run by volunteers, and
> > > open to all" (the current "Powering our communities with technology" -
> > > could be corporate speak from any computer or telecommunications company.)
> > > But I digress.)
> > > Anyway, archiving - the saving of copies of old material doesn't need
> > > to entail any sort of housecleaning. (Right before do the
> > > housecleaning might be a good time to take an archival snapshot - the
> > > before picture. Then do one after housecleaning too - get it before
> > > the dust can settle.)
> > >
> > > As far as housecleaning - that depends upon what want to do. When talk
> > > of "simplifying the directories" need to be clear what talking about. If
> > > you mean the unix directories/file names where the web pages are stored -
> > > this is probably not a good idea. Sure things are a bit tangled (multiple
> > > links to same directory, etc.) But any rearrangement means either breaking
> > > a lot of web pages, both here and elsewhere (in peoples bookmarks files,
> > > ...) or keeping the current directory structure and adding yet another
> > > set of cross-links. (i.e. creating a bigger cobweb). And ultimately
> > > whatever rearrangement is done will gradually accumulate extra fluff until
> > > it is not tidy either. ("Come the revolution, things will be different,
> > > not better, just different.")
> > > If you mean updating the content of the web pages that SCN maintains to
> > > help users find pages on the site. Evolution is probably better than
> > > revolution there. It may be well to ask editors to review the pages, but
> > > wholesale redesigns are usually more of a curse than a blessing for the
> > > user. (Those who know how to find things already will be lost and the
> > > chances of the new scheme actually being easier for the user are modest at
> > > best.) If you want to redesign these directories, watch some users who
> > > know their way around SCN - what do they find hard, and watch some users
> > > who don't know their way around (where do they look for things). Start by
> > > tweaking the directories given this sort of input - try to evolve it into
> > > a smoother system. If, after trying this, the users still think it is
> > > hopeless, then use the input to generate an overhaul.
> > > Too many web sites are afflicted by maintainers with too much time on
> > > their hands or a position to justify. (e.g. Look at places like MS (can
> > > you guess where to find Internet Explorer), Netscape (try to find older
> > > copies of Navigator) or DejaNews - they keep reorganizing things, but just
> > > get busier pages and never (well, hardly ever) manage to make it easy to
> > > do what one wants.)
> > > So, IMHO: archive (i.e. preserve copy of the state of SCN) - fine.
> > > Updating out of date information - great. Rearranging URLS - better not.
> > > Tidying up the SCN web pages - better done by evolution than revolution.
> > > Base updates on input from users (i.e. for the most part people who are
> > > not active in the webmasters group, etc.)
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, patrick fisher wrote:
> > >
> > > > Joe,
> > > >
> > > > The clutter needs to be reduced. There can be a place for discontinued
> pages,
> > > > information, which is what I think Jim is referring to. If it means breaking
> > > > someone's link, then that is the way it has to be.
> > > >
> > > > My reasoning is this: We need to have as much valuable information as
> possible
> > > on
> > > > SCN, which it has a great deal of. At the same time we need to balance that
> with
> > > > usability.
> > > >
> > > > The Volunteer Community page is under SCN Communities. The old HTML file is
> > > still
> > > > there. However, I cleaned up the section.
> > > >
> > > > Okay, back to beating a dead horse (for the last time): I have gone in
> circles
> > > and
> > > > circles looking for information on SCN, not only because of the multitude of
> > > links,
> > > > and not only because of the volume of data, but also because there is a lot
> of
> > > > information that is not pertinent.
> > > >
> > > > When you have a lot of information that is not pertinent, it makes the very
> > > valuable
> > > > information worthless if people can't find it.
> > > >
> > > > SCN is great. It deserves to be greater.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Patrick
> > > >
> > > > --- Joe Mabel <jmabel at speakeasy.org> wrote:
> > > > > Where it is our own SCN content - meetings that don't take place, etc - we
>
> > > > > should update the content! However, I strongly believe that even a page
> > > devoted
> > > > > to a meeting that no longer takes place should be modified to say "this
> page
> > > > > used to describe a meeting ..." etc. rather than be deleted, or you break
> > > > > someone else's link.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not sure what page you mean by "The Volunteer Community Page". Can you
> give a
> > > > > URL?
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------
> > > > > Joe Mabel
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > ...
> > > > > > > --------------------
> > > > > > > Joe Mabel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks Joe for responding.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You bring up some interesting points. While I don't consider older
> > > and/or
> > > > > > > > previous pages "demoted" by being placed in an archive, it is of
> some
> > > > > > > > importance to figure some way of determining what material is no
> longer
> > > > > > > > current.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In a sense, merely updating links and adding and deleting notices
> > > changes
> > > > > > > > the pages, and this has been one method of keeping SCN current. Yet
> this
> > > > > > > > method may, by some, be inadequate for larger updates and
> modifications.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Interesting points, Joe.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: Joe Mabel [mailto:jmabel at speakeasy.org]
> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:36 AM
> > > > > > > > To: Jim Loring
> > > > > > > > Cc: scn at scn.org
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: SCN: Hello?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It's really hard to know what to think of this without knowing what
> you
> > > > > > > > intend
> > > > > > > > to demote to "archive" status. How do you intend to decide that
> certain
> > > > > > > > content
> > > > > > > > is no longer current? I hope that in any case you don't plan to
> change
> > > its
> > > > > > > > URLs:
> > > > > > > > If you do so, you'll screw up any links to it that may exist.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That said, if there is actually any outdated content that deserves
> such
> > > > > > > > demotion, it may well be a good idea. But I, for one, would
> certainly
> > > want
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > know your criteria before I endorsed this.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --------------------
> > > > > > > > Joe Mabel
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 2002, Jim Loring wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hello All -
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Say, just thinking out loud, I was wondering how everyone felt
> about
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > topic of directory simplification and the archiving old SCN
> material
> > > such
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > web pages?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It would be nice to simplify some of the directories as it might
> make
> > > it
> > > > > > > > > easier for folks viewing SCN web pages to navigate and find
> > > information.
> > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > would also be easier to edit the various sections.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think it would be interesting to archive some of the old web
> pages,
> > > and
> > > > > > > > > make them available somewhere on SCN - a "Museum of SCN," if you
> will.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Finally, we need to update some of the content on the pages, to
> keep
> > > SCN
> > > > > > > > > useful and something folks might want to use as an up-to-date
> > > reference.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So - ideas? We can chat about this at the SCN General meeting on
> > > > > > > > Wednesday.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Cheers!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Jim Loring
> > > > > > > > > webeditors at scn.org
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Seattle Community Network - "Powering Our Communities with
> Technology"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
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