SCN: RE: RE: SCNA kaput -- irrevocably? - from Doug Schuler
sc at sdf.lonestar.org
sc at sdf.lonestar.org
Fri Jul 1 22:03:16 PDT 2011
This message from Doug Schuler bounced from the scn list (from a
non-subscribed address).
Rod Clark
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 21:05:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas Schuler <douglas at publicsphereproject.org>
To: Al Boss <alboss at sisypheans.org>
Cc: Rod Clark <rod at rodclark.net>,
Randy Groves <randomgrace at gmail.com>, jmabel <jmabel at speakeasy.org>,
Kenneth <kgillgren at igc.org>, Steve Guest <steve at steve-guest.com>,
Lois Beedle <ljbeedle at scn.org>, "J. Johnson" <jj at scn.org>,
Steve <steve at advocate.net>, Jim Horton <jimh at scn.org>,
AkiNamioka <anamioka at gmail.com>, Joel Ware <jw4 at scn.org>,
Joel Ware <joelware at yahoo.com>,
Ti Locke-Computer Giveaway <tgreyraven at yahoo.com>, scn <scn at scn.org>
Subject: Re: SCN: RE: RE: SCNA kaput -- irrevocably? - from Ken Gillgren
Want something done? Ask a busy person... Looks like the right
people were asked!
I'm impressed at how much work has been done over the years. I agree
with Randy that we also need organizational support.
The options, as I see it -- similarly to the way Joe presented it-, are
1. Fill the slots on the SCNA board with new people and carry on with
the SCNA by-laws, etc.
2. Close up shop and let the money go to CPSR where it could then flow
to a new non-profit
3. Somehow get Public Sphere Project into the act
I'm OK with any of those.... Here are some of my thoughts on each.
1. This is probably easiest. But going out of business and leaving
the assets to CPSR could be a problem... (see item 2)
2. I see closing and moving the money to CPSR as relatively easy. The
second part I find harder. Coming up with a new non-profit can be done
(we did it with Public Sphere Project) but it can (will?) be a real
pain. BTW, I should tell you that I am actually the acting executive
director of CPSR and I'm in the process of decommissioning CPSR at the
moment. I'm handling the finances which could make things easier --
but it looks like CPSR will cease to exist soon which could complicate
matters if SCNA were to go out of business.
3. The PSP is a 501.c.3 non-profit organization which essentially
runs on volunteer labor. (see http://www.publicsphereproject.org/
drupal). We have a broad mandate and it could easily include being
involved with a community network. 3 of our 5 board members live in
western washington, one is in Milan, Italy and one in Brighton,
England. Fiorella De Cindio from Milan is in charge of one of the
most successful and long-lived community network, BTW.
Anyway... my two cents.
-- Doug
PS. There is more info on the various points above. I can share
any of it but I didn't want to cram this note with TMI.
On Jul 1, 2011, at 7:18 PM, Al Boss wrote:
I can probably find someone who actually could certify all of us
insane, though I'm not sure that would be particularly helpful.
I'm in pretty much the same boat as Joe, horribly overextended but
ready to carve out some time if I can offer anything of use.
Best,
Al
On Jul 1, 2011, at 5:42 PM, Rod Clark <rod at rodclark.net> wrote:
> Randy,
>
> OK, I'll bite. Could you mention how you're going to get off
> Freeport, just a brief outline? New servers with Freeport just
> means a bigger faster swampier swamp with faster moving
> alligators. The new servers can't have Freeport, unless we're
> all certified insane first. All ears on this one.
>
> Rod Clark
>
>
> On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, Randy Groves wrote:
>
>> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 16:52:02 -0700
>> From: Randy Groves <randomgrace at gmail.com>
>> To: Rod Clark <rod at rodclark.net>
>> Subject: Re: SCN: RE: RE: SCNA kaput -- irrevocably? - from Ken
>> Gillgren
>> No - I've got the servers basically configured. They're
>> running either Fedora 12 or 13 (I don't remember, and they
>> aren't on at the moment). They need to be set up with the
>> appropriate addresses for the library situation, and also
>> need to have the serial console capability turned on and
>> configured (so that we can get into them via phone if they
>> hiccup and we can't get to them via the network).
>>
>> Actually, I'm only planning on installing the three IBMs
>> initially, as I believe that may be the max we can do right
>> now spacewise.
>>
>> Once they are in the library, then they'll be accessible. I
>> don't think that we want to then have a free-for-all, but
>> rather take a good look at what we need and proceed in an
>> organized manner.
>>
>> The first step would be to turn one of the boxes into the
>> main file server, and move all the home directories and the
>> web server files off of the old SCN boxes. The files would
>> be rsync'd on a regular (probably nightly) basis to the
>> other identical drive in the box.
>>
>> Until we get off of FreePort, there will always be some
>> aspect of wizardry involved :-).
>>
>> After that - who knows?
>>
>> -randy
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Rod Clark <rod at rodclark.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Randy,
>>>
>>> Do you need people to help configure the new servers before
>>> moving them to the library? It would be wonderful to hear that
>>> this project involves installing a widely known OS, standard
>>> software and typical, obvious configuration. It had better not
>>> involve any "only the Wizard of SCN can do this" aspects,
>>> because if it does we're still in the same boat.
>>>
>>> As a FreeBSD user for the past five years or so, I hope it's
>>> something comprehensible like that. But whatever it is, please
>>> let us in on the secret. People would like to contribute
>>> something to help this happen. What's the plan - when and how
>>> can we help it along?
>>>
>>>
>>> Rod Clark
>>>
>>> On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, jmabel wrote:
>>>
>>> Date: Fri,
>>>>
>>> 1 Jul 2011 13:57:12 -0700 (PDT) > From: jmabel
>>>
>>> <jmabel at speakeasy.org> > To: Rod Clark <rod at rodclark.net>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: SCN: RE: RE: SCNA kaput -- irrevocably? - from Ken
>>>> Gillgren
>>>>
>>>
>>>> I'd be glad to be involved in discussions. I'm insanely
>>>> busy these days, but I'd prise open a weekday evening or
>>>> two for this.
>>>>
>>>> --------------------
>>>> Joe Mabel
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, Rod Clark wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Joe,
>>>>>
>>>>> The Crisis Directory is a great site, your efforts to keep it
>>>>> going for so many years are exceptional, and I overlooked it
>>>>> this morning.
>>>>>
>>>>> But still I can say with 100% certainty that no new sites at all
>>>>> have been created on SCN in 2010 or 2011. If they had, those
>>>>> directories would have had 2010 and 2011 dates, because even
>>>>> with the non-updating dates of symbolic links, any symlinks
>>>>> created for them could not have existed prior to the creation
>>>>> date of the new directories themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> Updating a site is still possible for existing users, like you.
>>>>> But creating new sites (or lists) takes some volunteers and
>>>>> coordination. That's what SCNA doesn't have any more, and what
>>>>> it needs to go forward at all. Does anyone want to meet
>>>>> somewhere to discuss what we might want to do, or be able to do?
>>>>>
>>>>> Rod Clark
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, jmabel wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 13:34:16 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>> From: jmabel <jmabel at speakeasy.org>
>>>>>> To: Rod Clark <rod at rodclark.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: SCN: RE: RE: SCNA kaput -- irrevocably? - from
>>>>>> Ken Gillgren
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm pretty sure I've made updates as recently as last
>>>>>> week. I would say I make at least 20-30 updates a year,
>>>>>> maybe more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------
>>>>>> Joe Mabel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, Rod Clark wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're right. Thank you for catching that. Via FTP, SCN
>>>>>>> shows a last modified date for the crisis directory in
>>>>>>> 2009. But reading a few of the crisis pages I see that
>>>>>>> Clothing, for example, was verified 3/11. What I forgot
>>>>>>> to realize is that a symbolic link must have been
>>>>>>> updated in 2009, not the actual directory. Since many
>>>>>>> of of the other directories are also symbolic links
>>>>>>> rather than real directories, I'd have to look within
>>>>>>> each one of the symbolically linked directories to find
>>>>>>> its actual age.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rod Clark
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, jmabel wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:53:20 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>>>> From: jmabel <jmabel at speakeasy.org>
>>>>>>>> To: Rod Clark <rod at rodclark.net>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: SCN: RE: RE: SCNA kaput -- irrevocably? - from
>>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>> Gillgren
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In your list of what is active, you somehow missed the
>>>>>>>> crisis directory I actively maintain
>>>>>>>> (http://www.scn.org/crisis), which means you may well
>>>>>>>> have missed something else.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --------------------
>>>>>>>> Joe Mabel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, Rod Clark wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Doug,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you have a mailing list handy at CPSR or Public
>>>>>>>>> Sphere that we could use for this conversation?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Four and a half hours after I sent the message below
>>>>>>>>> to scn at scn.org, it hasn't shown up. A few simple
>>>>>>>>> commands to majordomo took a couple of hours to
>>>>>>>>> execute this morning. Three and a half hours after I
>>>>>>>>> unsubscribed a couple of unknown addresses, I got a
>>>>>>>>> confirmation from majordomo that it had executed
>>>>>>>>> that. Based on this, I'm going to guess that there
>>>>>>>>> are approximately zero mailing lists still actively
>>>>>>>>> in use on SCN.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are currently 48 addresses subscribed to scn,
>>>>>>>>> that we could move to a usable list.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rod Clark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 1 Jul 2011, Rod Clark wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 14:56:56 +0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>> From: Rod Clark <sc at sdf.lonestar.org>
>>>>>>>>> To: scn at scn.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: SCN: RE: RE: SCNA kaput -- irrevocably? - from
>>>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>>> Gillgren
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ken,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> SCN nominally still has 185 mailing lists on the
>>>>>>>>> books. (I sent Majordomo a "lists" command a while
>>>>>>>>> ago, and eventually it responded with the list of
>>>>>>>>> lists. My text editor says that file has 185 lines.)
>>>>>>>>> It's impossible to tell whether any of them are still
>>>>>>>>> in use, without useful login access to the system.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But a few days ago when I set up a mailing list for a
>>>>>>>>> school board candidate on a local non-profit system,
>>>>>>>>> it wasn't SCN. I would have preferred to be able to
>>>>>>>>> do something like that on SCN, but realistically it's
>>>>>>>>> not possible to believe that things would work
>>>>>>>>> satisfactorily. The problems mostly aren't with the
>>>>>>>>> hardware, which is puffing along arthritically well
>>>>>>>>> enough to continue running, but that no one is left
>>>>>>>>> at the switch. It's all ghosts, except for Randy's
>>>>>>>>> occasional touch-up here and there when he can get to
>>>>>>>>> it. I'm amazed that it's still up, and that Randy has
>>>>>>>>> kept it up all this time. But it's become a museum on
>>>>>>>>> disk.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No one has succeeded in starting a new community
>>>>>>>>> group site on SCN for years. A quick read-only look
>>>>>>>>> via FTP at the directory names and dates shows that
>>>>>>>>> none of the roughly 350 sites still on SCN's server
>>>>>>>>> have been updated in years, with the exception of
>>>>>>>>> these four - Phil Bartle's CMP/RDI/MPFC/GCAD (tech
>>>>>>>>> support by Al Boss), Jean Buskin's calendar (my 1998
>>>>>>>>> Perl calendar program still chugging along), Qwest
>>>>>>>>> Pioneers (updated in 2010 - that's Lois), and OWL's
>>>>>>>>> Hoot (I'm guessing Lois). That's it. Otherwise,
>>>>>>>>> multiply your experience times 350.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Randy is suggesting a work party to install six new
>>>>>>>>> servers. They'd have a current operating system and
>>>>>>>>> software, something normal and not frighteningly
>>>>>>>>> weird. That would give us a system that normal Unix
>>>>>>>>> people could walk up to and understand. I've
>>>>>>>>> volunteered to help with that, although there's no
>>>>>>>>> schedule yet.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But mostly, volunteers would need to get together and
>>>>>>>>> come up with something on the people side of things.
>>>>>>>>> What do you actually want from a local non-profit
>>>>>>>>> Internet group these days, if anything?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rod Clark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 12:44:22 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Kenneth" <kgillgren at igc.org>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "'Randy Groves'" <randomgrace at gmail.com>,
>>>>>>>>>> "'Steve Guest'" <steve at steve-guest.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <ljbeedle at scn.org>, <douglas at publicsphereproject.org>,
>>>>>>>>>> <alboss at sisypheans.org>, <al.boss at metrokc.gov>,
>>>>>>>>>> <jj at scn.org, <scn at scn.org>, <douglas at cpsr.org>,
>>>>>>>>>> <steve at advocate.net>,
>>>>>>>>>> <jmabel at speakeasy.org>, <jimh at scn.org>,
>>>>>>>>>> <bb615 at scn.org>,
>>>>>>>>>> <anamioka at gmail.com>, "'Joel Ware, IV'" <jw4 at scn.org>,
>>>>>>>>>> "'Joel Ware, IV'" <joelware at yahoo.com>,
>>>>>>>>>> "'Ti Locke-Computer Giveaway'" <tgreyraven at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: RE: SCNA kaput -- irrevocably?
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 12:54:59 -0700
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Out of curiousity, how many volunteer/technical
>>>>>>>>>> staff are still supporting SCN? I know the Wedgwood
>>>>>>>>>> Community Council was hosted on SCN until the
>>>>>>>>>> council's Web admin was unable to get a response
>>>>>>>>>> from SCN support (I don't remember what the question
>>>>>>>>>> or issue was anymore, this was probably 2-3 years
>>>>>>>>>> ago), and so they weighed anchor and moved to a
>>>>>>>>>> commercially hosted service.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are people still signing up for email addresses
>>>>>>>>>> and/or mailing lists? Can people still sign up for
>>>>>>>>>> email addresses and/or mailing lists?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm guessing there could still be a niche for SCN,
>>>>>>>>>> although the type of support might be different, and
>>>>>>>>>> therefore the volunteer pool may or may not be
>>>>>>>>>> available.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just wondering.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ken Gillgren
>>>>>>>>>> (206) 755-9578
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:ken@**gillgrencommunication.com<ken at gillgrencommunication.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ken at gillgrencommunication.com
>>>>>>>>>> Skype: ken.gillgren
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: Randy Groves [mailto:randomgrace at gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 12:32 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Steve Guest
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: ljbeedle at scn.org;
>>>>>>>>>> douglas at publicsphereproject.**org<douglas at publicsphereproject.org;
>>>>>>>>>> alboss at sisypheans.org; al.boss at metrokc.gov;
>>>>>>>>>> kgillgren at igc.org;
>>>>>>>>>> jj at scn.org;
>>>>>>>>>> scn at scn.org; douglas at cpsr.org; steve at advocate.net;
>>>>>>>>>> jmabel at speakeasy.org;
>>>>>>>>>> jimh at scn.org; bb615 at scn.org; anamioka at gmail.com;
>>>>>>>>>> Joel Ware, IV; Joel Ware, IV; Ti Locke-Computer Giveaway
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: RE: SCNA kaput -- irrevocably?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was a bit curious that Joel, Alan, and Ti were not
>>>>>>>>>> included in the e-mail, but forwarded it to them as
>>>>>>>>>> soon as I saw it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think that it is a little early to start dancing on
>>>>>>>>>> SCN's grave.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -randy
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Steve Guest <
>>>>>>>>>> steve at steve-guest.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Lois
>>>>>>>>>> Having officially resigned from the SCNA board about
>>>>>>>>>> 3 years ago I cannot tell you the current situation.
>>>>>>>>>> I do not see Joel or Ti listed in this email and
>>>>>>>>>> they were still board members when I resigned.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for the disposal of the SCNA assets and funds the
>>>>>>>>>> articles of incorporation, the constitution and the
>>>>>>>>>> by-laws where appropriate were all very clear -
>>>>>>>>>> these must all go to CPSR. Having tried to change a
>>>>>>>>>> small aspect of these by-laws to give the board the
>>>>>>>>>> ability to perform a required and expected
>>>>>>>>>> management function - and failing - I would expect
>>>>>>>>>> these asset and fund dispersal requirements have not
>>>>>>>>>> changed. Therefore they cannot simply be transferred
>>>>>>>>>> to another non-profit.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The ACLU attorney who setup the rules did a great
>>>>>>>>>> job. I had discussions with four attorneys on ways
>>>>>>>>>> to change these documents, including the one who did
>>>>>>>>>> the original work. There are copies of the documents
>>>>>>>>>> on the web site should you need them. I would have
>>>>>>>>>> your own legal counsel look at these.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Steve Guest
>>>>>>>>>> 206-364-5636
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: owner-scn at scn.org [mailto:owner-scn at scn.org] On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>> ljbeedle at scn.org
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 2:34 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To:
>>>>>>>>>> douglas at publicsphereproject.**org<douglas at publicsphereproject.org;
>>>>>>>>>> randomgrace at gmail.com;
>>>>>>>>>> alboss at sisypheans.org; al.boss at metrokc.gov;
>>>>>>>>>> kgillgren at igc.org;
>>>>>>>>>> jj at scn.org;
>>>>>>>>>> scn at scn.org; douglas at cpsr.org; steve at advocate.net;
>>>>>>>>>> jmabel at speakeasy.org;
>>>>>>>>>> jimh at scn.org; bb615 at scn.org; anamioka at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: SCN: RE: SCNA kaput -- irrevocably?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I would hate to see SCN die totally. I am not sure
>>>>>>>>>> how many active users we still have but I do have 4
>>>>>>>>>> non profits with directories on SCN that I keep up.
>>>>>>>>>> I also still try to keep up the Spirituality menu.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What would it mean to our users if your group took over
>>>>>>>>>> Doug?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What does the SCN Constitution and By-laws say about
>>>>>>>>>> the disposition of assets if we were to dissolve
>>>>>>>>>> SCN?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Having gone though this with a church I do know that
>>>>>>>>>> not much is required to reactive except for filing
>>>>>>>>>> an up to date Constitution and By-laws and the fee.
>>>>>>>>>> At least that was all we had to do for the church.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is there anyone left who can call a meeting of the
>>>>>>>>>> members to approve any actions?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lois
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Original Message:
>>>>>>>>>> -----------------
>>>>>>>>>> From: Douglas Schuler douglas at publicsphereproject.**org<douglas at publicsphereproject.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:07:36 -0700
>>>>>>>>>> To: randomgrace at gmail.com, alboss at sisypheans.org,
>>>>>>>>>> al.boss at metrokc.gov,
>>>>>>>>>> kgillgren at igc.org, jj at scn.org, scn at scn.org,
>>>>>>>>>> douglas at cpsr.org,
>>>>>>>>>> steve at advocate.net, jmabel at speakeasy.org, jimh at scn.org,
>>>>>>>>>> ljbeedle at scn.org,
>>>>>>>>>> bb615 at scn.org, anamioka at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: SCNA kaput -- irrevocably?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> After 10 years or so of inaction it looks like the
>>>>>>>>>> SCN board finally ceased re-upping with the
>>>>>>>>>> secretary of state.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm guessing that it would still be possible to re-
>>>>>>>>>> initiate the organization if anybody wanted to. I'd
>>>>>>>>>> be willing for the Public Sphere Project (a
>>>>>>>>>> non-profit, 501.c.3 organization) to absorb the
>>>>>>>>>> assets (probably just the machine) to continue the
>>>>>>>>>> operation of the machine. I think that my students
>>>>>>>>>> could take some degree of custodianship over the
>>>>>>>>>> machine as part of their civic intelligence work.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -- Doug
>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * *
>>>>>>>>>> * * * * *
>>>>>>>>>> * *
>>>>>>>>>> . To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to:
>>>>>>>>>> majordomo at scn.org In the body of the
>>>>>>>>>> message, type:
>>>>>>>>>> unsubscribe scn
>>>>>>>>>> ==== Messages posted on this list are also available on
>>>>>>>>>> the web at:
>>>>>>>>>> ====
>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * * http://www.scn.org/volunteers/**scn-l/<http://www.scn.org/volunteers/scn-l/
>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * *
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
Douglas Schuler
douglas at publicsphereproject.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Public Sphere Project
http://www.publicsphereproject.org/
Liberating Voices! A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution
(project)
http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/
Liberating Voices! A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution
(book)
http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601
* * * * * * * * From the Listowner * * * * * * * *
To unsubscribe send a message to: majordomo at scn.org
In the body of the message, type: unsubscribe scn
More information about the scn
mailing list